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A gauntlet of sorts. Wolverine takes on the following at full health 1on1 in pure fighting skill. No claws, no healing factor, no adamantium, physical attributes reduced or increased to that of the opponent. How many times out of 10 does he win/lose.

Arsenal
Batgirl (Cass)
Batman
Black Canary
Black Panther
Captain America
Connor Hawke
Daredevil
Deadpool
Deathstroke
Gamora
Green Arrow
Iron Fist
Karate Kid
Katana
Lady Shiva
Mystique
Namor
Nightwing
Psylocke
Red Hood (Jason Todd)
Richard Dragon
Robin (Tim Drake)
Shang Chi
Starfire
Talia al Ghul
Thing
Wonder Woman

All opponents are in plain clothes, have no weapons, and no powers other than physical attribute enhancements, strength, speed etc. and skill-based enhancement.

Arsenal wins 6/10
Batgirl (Cass) wins 9/10
Batman wins 10/10
Black Canary wins 7/10
Black Panther wins 10/10
Captain America wins 10/10
Connor Hawke wins 8/10
Daredevil wins 9/10
Deadpool wins 7/10
Deathstroke wins 10/10
Gamora wins 9/10
Green Arrow wins 7/10
Iron Fist wins 9/10
Karate Kid wins 10/10
Lady Shiva wins 9/10
Mystique wins 6/10
Namor wins 6/10
Nightwing wins 9/10
Red Hood (Jason Todd) wins 9/10
Richard Dragon wins 8/10
Robin (Tim Drake) wins 6/10
Shang Chi wins 10/10
Starfire wins 6/10
Talia al Ghul wins 6/10
Thing wins 6/10
Wonder Woman wins 6/10

Do you mean he wins or they win? The list has grown I sneakily edited...

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Do you mean he wins or they win? The list has grown I sneakily edited... I meant they win...but I was just kidding you sneaky bastard. Adding more people like that. Who do you think you are? Now my joke isn't funny or aggrivating.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
A gauntlet of sorts. Wolverine takes on the following at full health 1on1 in pure fighting skill. No claws, no healing factor, no adamantium, physical attributes reduced or increased to that of the opponent. How many times out of 10 does he win/lose.

Arsenal
Batgirl (Cass)
Batman
Black Canary
Black Panther
Captain America
Connor Hawke
Daredevil
Deadpool
Deathstroke
Gamora
Green Arrow
Iron Fist
Karate Kid
Katana
Lady Shiva
Mystique
Namor
Nightwing
Psylocke
Red Hood (Jason Todd)
Richard Dragon
Robin (Tim Drake)
Shang Chi
Starfire
Talia al Ghul
Thing
Wonder Woman

All opponents are in plain clothes, have no weapons, and no powers other than physical attribute enhancements, strength, speed etc. and skill-based enhancement.

Batgirl: Wolvie wins 2/10
Batman: Wolvie wins 2/10
Black Canary: Wolverine wins 4/10
Black Panther: Wolverine wins 5/10
Captain America: Wolverine wins 3/10
Connor Hawke: Wolvie wins 3/10
Daredevil: Wolverine wins 6/10
Deadpool: Wolverine wins 7/10
Deathstroke: Wolverine wins 7/10
Gamora:
Green Arrow: Wolverine 5/10
Iron Fist: Wolvie wins 3/10
Karate Kid:
Katana: Wolverine wins 8/10
Shiva: Wolverine wins 2-3/10
Mystique: Wolverine wins 5-6/10
Namor: Wolverine wins 9/10
Nightwing: Wolverine wins 4/10
Psylocke: Wolverine wins 6-7/10
Red Hood: Wolverine wins 5/10
Richard Dragon: Wolverine wins 2/10
Robin: Wolverine wins 6/10
Shang Chi: Wolverine wins 4-5/10
Starfire: Wolverine wins 10/10
Talia Al Guhl: Wolverine wins 6/10
Thing: Wolverine 10/10
Wonder Woman: Wolverine 3-4/10

Don't me... someone is bound to say he gets a win on Gamora and KK...

If your point is to see how he stacks up without his "powers", it's a given he'd do significantly less well, not that he doesn't have the ability to be lethal, but simply that he has relied on his "powers" alot during the years, and has had little use to develop complex strategems.

I just wanted to see how his fighting skills alone stack up against other people's since he purportedly knows dozens of styles and has thousands of years experience due to training with Ogun...

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I just wanted to see how his fighting skills alone stack up against other people's since he purportedly knows dozens of styles and has thousands of years experience due to training with Ogun...

But Ogun only knew 13 styles.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I just wanted to see how his fighting skills alone stack up against other people's since he purportedly knows dozens of styles and has thousands of years experience due to training with Ogun... Do you think he'd be alot more lethal if he were to utilize them more? The styles I mean, and not rely on his healing?

Originally posted by Tha C-Master
Do you think he'd be alot more lethal if he were to utilize them more? The styles I mean, and not rely on his healing? Probably. Pretty much any character with enhanced physical attributes would be far more effective and formidable at fighting if they knew/used technical fighting skills to their advantage.
Originally posted by batdude123
But Ogun only knew 13 styles. Iunno .

I'm saying it's a lack of usage out of a lack in necessity, not a lack in knowledge. That being said, I think it's actually a shame that Wolverine isn't written showing excellent martial prowress more often, instead of taking hits like a god.

Then again the average comic reader simply sees, "guy with webs, guy with claws."

I'm sure he has martial arts/fighting knowledge; however I never understood the notion that he's "master of every style" etc. that some people purport him to be and that's the reason he can somehow fight Namor etc. Same thing with Captain America.

So basically the thread is on an even footing, how often can Wolverine win by pure skill alone.

Batgirl: Wolvie wins 3/10
Batman: Wolvie wins 3/10
Black Canary: Wolverine wins 4/10
Black Panther: Wolverine wins 5/10
Captain America: Wolverine wins 1/10
Connor Hawke: Wolvie wins 4/10
Daredevil: Wolverine wins 5/10
Deadpool: Wolverine wins 5/10
Deathstroke: Wolverine wins 4/10
Gamora: *agrees with Batdude*
Green Arrow: Wolverine 5/10
Iron Fist: Wolvie wins 4/10
Karate Kid: -See Gamora-
Katana: Wolverine wins 8/10
Shiva: Wolverine wins 2/10
Mystique: Wolverine wins 6/10
Namor: Wolverine wins 8/10
Nightwing: Wolverine wins 5/10
Psylocke: Wolverine wins 7/10
Red Hood: Wolverine wins 5/10
Richard Dragon: Wolverine wins 2/10
Robin: Wolverine wins 7/10
Shang Chi: Wolverine wins 5/10
Starfire: I'm not familiar enough to make an unbiased judgement. I'll, otherwise, agree with Batdude: Wolverine wins 10/10
Talia Al Guhl: Wolverine wins 5/10
Thing: Wolverine 10/10
Wonder Woman: Wolverine 5/10


I think mine and Batdude's lists are somewhat similar. Wolverine is a GREAT fighter, but, take away his claws, and healing factor? He'll be stomped FAR more often.

A better idea for the thread may have been both Wolverine WITH and WITHOUT his healing factor/claws. To compare, I mean.

That wouldn't really give any indication of his pure fighting ability though

With claws is a possibility but then that's technically a weapon, adamantium bones is in a sense armour, and he's facing unarmed and unarmoured opponents.

Originally posted by Soljer
Captain America: Wolverine wins 1/10

disgust no2

Originally posted by batdude123
disgust no2

I just put that to get on your nerves, I knew you would respond as such, .

I honestly believe that since Wolverine is put on an equal playing field with the physical abilites, and ONLY skill is taken into account, that he would win the same against Captain America as he would against Batman.

But, you know we disagree about the respective skill levels of Steve and Bruce.

Originally posted by Soljer
I just put that to get on your nerves, I knew you would respond as such, .

I honestly believe that since Wolverine is put on an equal playing field with the physical abilites, and ONLY skill is taken into account, that he would win the same against Captain America as he would against Batman.

But, you know we disagree about the respective skill levels of Steve and Bruce.

Alright, yep.

Originally posted by Soljer
I just put that to get on your nerves, I knew you would respond as such, .

I honestly believe that since Wolverine is put on an equal playing field with the physical abilites, and ONLY skill is taken into account, that he would win the same against Captain America as he would against Batman.

But, you know we disagree about the respective skill levels of Steve and Bruce. And although I respect Batdude a great deal I tend to side with Soljer on the Captain America vs Batman deal.

Originally posted by Psyquis52
And although I respect Batdude a great deal I tend to side with Soljer on the Captain America vs Batman deal.

disgust

Batgirl: 6/10
Batman: 7/10
Black Canary: 8/10
Black Panther:6/10
Captain America: 5/10
Connor Hawke: 6/10
Daredevil: 6/10
Deadpool: 6/10
Deathstroke: 10/10
Gamora: --
Green Arrow: 9/10
Iron Fist: 6/10
Karate Kid: --
Katana: 9/10
Shiva: 6/10
Mystique: 7/10
Namor: 8/10
Nightwing: 10/10
Psylocke: 7/10
Red Hood: 10/10
Richard Dragon: 6/10
Robin: 10/10
Shang Chi: 6/10
Starfire: 10/10
Talia Al Guhl: ins 8/10
Thing: Wolverine 8/10
Wonder Woman: Wolverine 8/10

Originally posted by batdude123
disgust
winkiss

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Batgirl: 6/10
Batman: 7/10
Black Canary: 8/10
Black Panther:6/10
Captain America: 5/10
Connor Hawke: 6/10
Daredevil: 6/10
Deadpool: 6/10
Deathstroke: 10/10
Gamora: --
Green Arrow: 9/10
Iron Fist: 6/10
Karate Kid: --
Katana: 9/10
Shiva: 6/10
Mystique: 7/10
Namor: 8/10
Nightwing: 10/10
Psylocke: 7/10
Red Hood: 10/10
Richard Dragon: 6/10
Robin: 10/10
Shang Chi: 6/10
Starfire: 10/10
Talia Al Guhl: ins 8/10
Thing: Wolverine 8/10
Wonder Woman: Wolverine 8/10 When not indicated as Wolverine, what do the numbers signify?

All of them are how many Wolverine would win out of 10. I started putting Wolverine's name in at the end to be clearer... but then I didn't want to go back and paste in front of all the out comes.

Then I'm confused, without claws, adamantium, and healing factor and with physicality made equal to his opponents he beats Lady Shiva and Richard Dragon but ties with Captain America.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Then I'm confused, without claws, adamantium, and healing factor and with physicality made equal to his opponents he beats Lady Shiva and Richard Dragon but ties with Captain America.


The closest thing in Marvel to Dragon (who I believe to be superior to Shiva) is Shang Chi. In terms of skill they are basically mirror images of each other (but Chi has some extra umph with chi based abilities). Dragon (or Shiva/Cass but they are all close enough) is the best MA has to offer... but Marvel counter part (Shang Chi) isn't. When Zartan the Weapon-master wanted to redeem himself for losing to Shang Chi he decided he didn't to beat someone who was Chi's superior. Guess who he decided to fight? Captain America. Captain America is the best Martial Artist Marvel has to offer (Elektra and Wolverine are close) and he is above Shiva and Dragon IMO.

Captain America is the best martial artist based on and is better than the best martial artists in DC based on......

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Captain America is the best martial artist based on

His appearances/feats and the collective opinion of the entire Marvel Universe?


Originally posted by xmarksthespot
and is better than the best martial artists in DC based on......


A mixture of opinion, evidence and abc logic

That's weird... relatively generic punches don't count as martial arts for most other characters...

Ad populem.

ABC logic is silly.

To each their own I spose...

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
That's weird... relatively generic punches don't count as martial arts for most other characters...

Ad populem.

ABC logic is silly.

To each their own I spose...

... Are you saying that Captain America's fighting style is generic? I'm sorry but that is the most ridicules thing I have ever heard. What is better or more unique about the way Batman/Shiva/Dragon fight? Please enlighten me. Cap throws a punch the same way they do and he hits nerve clusters just as often if not more then any of them (save Daredevil). So why is he a bland and generic fighter? Because he attacks with a closed fist where they use an open palm (which isn't true in the slightest). Because he doesn't strike a pose every chance he gets (http://ppc.warhawkenterprises.com/brucelee/roof3.jpg)? Because he doesn't waste his time blocking on coming attacks with his fore arms (The ones who do, do so out of necessity; if they had a light weight shield I'm sure they would use it)? Captain America's attacks penetrate the guards of the most skilled fights just as well (better) as the likes of Batman/Dragon/Shiva manage to do.... but he is a generic fighter?

Cap doesn't bob and weave around because he doesn't need to not because he can't. It would just be wasted movement fore him adding extra time to a fight when he can just block with his shield and press his attack... which is what he does. Is offence is unrelenting and more effective then any fighting maneuver Shiva or Dragon have displayed.

Oops my bad, actually expecting someone purported as the best martial artist in both Marvel and DC whose apparently only equalled by Wolverine in martial arts skills to actually display said technical proficiency in martial arts. How preposterous! A pox on me! A pox!

I didn't say his fighting style is generic, I said a relatively generic punch from him is generic and yet is considered some ultra-uber-super-special move as part of his "unique fighting style" a giant writer/artist cop out. If other characters were to do the same thing it'd just be a punch.

Ham

This is stupid

You should have just said who has better skills

Originally posted by Grimm22
Ham Shakespeare Originally posted by Grimm22
This is stupid

You should have just said who has better skills There are factors other than skills here, though admittedly probably few.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Shakespeare There are factors other than skills here, though admittedly probably few.

Well at first I thought it was Wolverine without a healing factor or claws or whatever vs all these characters

It says 1 on 1 in the OP...

Answer the thread!

Logan's sloppyly relies on his healing factor. He absorbs and hits back.

I'll do my best, but I don't know every one of these fighters. But, I'll give it a shot.

Completely unbiased, by the way (to all those people that think I hate Wolverine so much).

These numbers are Wolverine's wins:

Arsenal--Dunno.
Batgirl (Cass)--3/10.
Batman--3/10.
Black Canary--4/10.
Black Panther--3/10.
Captain America--3/10.
Connor Hawke--Dunno enough about his skill.
Daredevil--4.5/10.
Deadpool--5/10.
Deathstroke--5/10.
Gamora--0/10.
Green Arrow--5/10.
Iron Fist--4.5/10.
Karate Kid--0/10.
Katana--Dunno.
Lady Shiva--3/10.
Mystique--4/10.
Namor--5/10.
Nightwing--4/10.
Psylocke--4/10.
Red Hood (Jason Todd)--5/10.
Richard Dragon--3/10.
Robin (Tim Drake)--4/10.
Shang Chi--4.5/10.
Starfire--I know who she is, but I dunno how skilled a fighter she is.
Talia al Ghul--I know who she is, but I dunno how skilled a fighter she is.
Thing--Errr...is Thing's rock-hide durability taken away here? If so, Wolvie wins 8/10.
Wonder Woman--5/10.

Without his healing factor and unbreakable bones, Wolverine gets rocked hard.

Bump...

I can't seem to remember where I read this... but forge was monitoring wolverine in the danger room and did a calculation??? of it all. the result: it was like performing a world record (in some sport, say running) while you beat the four hardest chess computers in the world... so he's pretty calculating when he is fighting. (sorry for the bad spelling and grammar, from Sweden )

I've said it before and I'll say it again - people often confuse good fighter with good martial artist - they are not necessarily the same thing. I've always thought that Wolverine was such a good fighter that it's as IF he's mastered every style on the planet. I mean, he has been trained in many styles sure, but his real ability comes from his mutation - like Cap's ability to apply the skill he does know comes from the SS serum. Wolverine's mutation and Cap's SS serum sort of function as an "X-factor" - that is even though they might not have trained in nearly as many disciplines as say Shang Chi or Iron Fist - they have more of a natural ability to apply the skill that they do know. For example, Wolverine's mutation gives him a sort of animalistic agility. This combined with the senses and reflexes enhanced by his mutation overall allow him to execute moves easier than the average human. He also has more experience training in the arts he does know - he has more fighting experience over all and has excercised certain moves more often than Shang Chi or Iron Fist due to his age. His enhanced speed and strength also play a factor into his fighting ability. Taking away his mutation is like taking the SSS away from Cap, you can't be really sure how good of a fighter you will be left with since everything that Logan has used his whole life to enhance his natural fighting ability has now left him. That being said, he likely possesses a greater natural ability to apply fighting skills than almost everyone in the Marvel U. Only rigerous training that Chi and Fist go through can make them a worthy opponent for him and he doesn't need to train as hard to do just as well or better. Much like Cap. Cap has not even mastered as many styles as Logan yet he fights just as well..Cap would probably give Chi or Fist a good run for their money the same as Logan probably around 5/10. Just wanted to share my two cents as to how Logan is consistently able to do so well against opponents who have trained in more styles than him.

Wolverine is unique - he's a combination of skill, enhanced speed, reflexes, strength, and a born killer's instincts. As well as super hearing smell, touch, etc which would also give him a greater ability to naturally fight more than the average human.

Cap has fought without the serum and still whipped Crossbones so i'd say, he did pretty damn good for himself.

I noticed people have Wolverine getting some wins over Wonder Woman and I'm rather confused.

Arsenal-no idea.
Batgirl (Cass)-Logan 4/10
Batman-even split or maybe Logan for the ever so slight majority.
Black Canary-Logan for the majority
Black Panther-Logan at least 6/10
Captain America-same as Batman
Connor Hawke-no idea
Daredevil-Same as batman.
Deadpool-not sure, but Logan for the clear majority.
Deathstroke-same as above.
Gamora-Logan 1/10
Green Arrow-Logan 8/10
Iron Fist-Logan 4/10
Karate Kid-All versions take the clear majority from Logan in my opinion.
Katana-no idea
Lady Shiva-assuming equal stats......Shiva 6/10.
Mystique- Logan takes the clear majority.
Namor-assuming equal stats.......Logan for the vast majority.
Nightwing- Logan for most
Psylocke-Logan for most
Red Hood (Jason Todd)-Logan for most.
Richard Dragon-Logan 4/10 or even split
Robin (Tim Drake)-Logan 10/10
Shang Chi-Logan 7/10
Starfire-no idea
Talia al Ghul-Logan 10/10
Thing-Logan 10/10
Wonder Woman- Logan for the clear majority.

So is it a human Logan vs. these people with their super powers, or are they powerless too?

Originally posted by Mindset
So is it a human Logan vs. these people with their super powers, or are they powerless too?

My understanding is that its Logan stripped of adamantium/hf and physically he is the same as whomever it is he is fighting. I don't think opponents have 'powers', for example Psylocke.

Originally posted by Warrior18

Gamora-Logan 1/10
Lady Shiva-assuming equal stats......Shiva 6/10.
Shang Chi-Logan 7/10
Wonder Woman- Logan for the clear majority.

Originally posted by tkitna