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Combatants: Darth Maul during the time of TPM versus General Grievous by LOE.

Setting: Tipoca City, Kamino.

Now I know that this was done before, however, I don't feel like bumping it or searching for it for that matter (as the search system sucks), so here we go. Who wins?

well lol.. although maul is much more powerful grievous wins.. unless maul uses one side of his saber.

Ladies first Advent. Pick your combatant, and present your argument.

Personally, I would have to go with Darth Maul.

Maul was trained in the Sith Arts (from infancy) by one of the most powerful Sith Lords of all time. He was extremely proficient in lightsaber combat, and in various styles of martial arts.

He is methodical, precise, and an expert in assassination and, if you read the Darth Maul books and Shadow Hunter, it is revealed that he is very skilled in Force-usage, beyond what we saw in The Phantom Menace. He was also able to take on and defeat Anoon Bondara - who was proclaimed to be one of the greatest and most skilled duelists in the Order - with significant ease, as I recall.

well im sorry to say this but everyone is considered one of the greatest and most skilled duelists in the order.. lmao just say that he killed qui-gon.. its more convincive..

Originally posted by Infinity
well im sorry to say this but everyone is considered one of the greatest and most skilled duelists in the order.. lmao just say that he killed qui-gon.. its more convincive..

Convincing. Convincive isn't a word.

Secondly, I'd suggest reading Shadow Hunter or Cloak of Deception for testimony to how powerful Bondara was.

sorry i never heard of that bondara dude. im more into ot char novels rather than pt novels. like jedi academy is really good, as is the njo series. i plan on reading thrawn novels when im done njo.

My favorite book is probably Legacy of the Jedi. The best bit about it imo was a chance to see Count Dooku as a jedi, both when he was a student at a temple, and master of Jinn.

My favorite comic would have to be Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith and Tales of the Jedi: The Sith War.

i simply cant wait until the darth bane novel it looks so good. and the darth plagueis one.

Oops, wrong forum - damn, too late to edit.

I won't reply to much of that, because I mostly agree with it - in a saber fight Maul would get owned, however Grievous' main weakness seems to be force crush, so couldn't Maul theoretically just crush his vital organs like Mace did, and then proceed to take him on with a saber in his weakened state, and possibly emerge victorious (maybe even get in a killing blow while Grievous momentarily stops due to the agony of the crush)?

Also, about the jedi masters that Grievous has killed: that's great for Grievous and all but none of them were really on the level of jedi like Bondara (imo) and Jinn (definitely). Although I suppose he did defeat Assaj and Durge together, so whatever.

I also doubt that Maul would be dumb enough to kick Grievous..

*Tries not to get involved in the private argument, but: Greivous didn't take on Ventress and Durge, that was non-canon, I thought.*

Oh right, lol that's cool, it kind of works out in my favour anyways.

Originally posted by Sith'ari
however Grievous' main weakness seems to be force crush, so couldn't Maul theoretically just crush him like Mace did, and then proceed to take him on with a saber in his weakened state, and possibly emerge victorious (maybe even get in a killing blow while Grievous momentarily stops due to the agony of the crush)?

I don't think Maul has ever shown us the ability to perform Force crush. Then even if he does (which I'm pretty positive he doesn't), he'd have to be smart enough to figure out Grievous' lungs are even a weakness. He's never seen Grievous before, he really doesn't know anything about him.



Okay, so Ki-Adi-Mundi, Shaak Ti, Aayla Secura, and apparently two others working together aren't as good as Qui-Gon alone? While I'd agree the Jedi on a single level weren't as good as Qui-Gon, it's the amount of Jedi at a time he faced would more than likely overwhelm Qui-Gon. Mainly the point is: the rate, and apparent ease of which he took them out speaks enough for him.



True, of course though, it's just the possibility that even if he does throw a kick, it won't have any impact on Grievous really.

@jollyjim:



I don't know, that's why I asked, lol. Nonetheless, he's more powerful than Ventress as stated in DR, who I'd rank Maul's equivalent, or possibly even above.

'I don't think Maul has ever shown us the ability to perform Force crush. Then even if he does (which I'm pretty positive he doesn't), he'd have to be smart enough to figure out Grievous' lungs are even a weakness. He's never seen Grievous before, he really doesn't know anything about him.'

Force grip (he does this is Shadowhunter) is force crush, requiring more control but less power.
And maybe so, I was going under the assumption that each opponent would know much about the other but yeah, Maul probably wouldn't be smart enough and probably would just go straight into a saber duel, which he would presumably lose.

'While I'd agree the Jedi on a single level weren't as good as Qui-Gon, it's the amount of Jedi at a time he faced would more than likely overwhelm Qui-Gon. Mainly the point is: the rate, and apparent ease of which he took them out speaks enough for him.'

This is all true. Really, my whole argument lies under whether Maul can take him out with the force. Now if he knows Grievous well, he would be cautious and rather than engaging him in a saber duel, would likely try to destroy him with the force, or at least weaken him. However if he knows nothing about Grievous, he would likely run head on into a saber duel, and likely lose.

Anyways, how about that philosophy debate? This seems basically settled. We can move onto another Star Wars versus debate, preferably one where we can at least argue or philosophy. Though I'll tell you I'm more of a Star Wars connoisseur than a philosophical one.

Maul knows all about philosophy! He wins!

Well we could continue and argue under the assumption that Maul would know grievous well, in which case he has a chance.
In my eyes, Maul knowing nothing about Grievous is an unfair advantage, because one of the things that makes grievous so deadly is his unorthodox, unpredictable nature - surprising his opponent.

I don't see why we would operate under the assumption they know each other. If that's the case than how could you ever say Luke will "observe his opponent" instead of instantly killing him, if he already were to know what Nihilus can do (when discussing their instakills/removing self from Force)?

Well I thought we could do it for this thread specifically to give the debate more depth.

Must Debate!


Though I would assume Grievous would win, Maul has a fair shot, he actually did have Obi-Wan beat, he lured him into the position to Force Push him in the pit, and from there he could have easily killed him, but he was overconfident, drinking in his own power, and didn't think to kick down the other Lighsaber. Darth Maul is pretty much emotionless, very well disciplined, so the thing Dooku said to Grievous something along the lines of "If you do not have Surprise, and Fear, it is better to retreat" it would be like Grievous' Obi-Wan fight. Maul would definately have a fighting chance against him, and if he used his Force Powers, would likely be victorious

Oh, did he have his 4 Arms at LOE time? That's what I based this on mostly, with 2 Arms, I would bet Maul could win

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
Though I would assume Grievous would win, Maul has a fair shot, he actually did have Obi-Wan beat, he lured him into the position to Force Push him in the pit, and from there he could have easily killed him, but he was overconfident, drinking in his own power, and didn't think to kick down the other Lighsaber.

How is that relevant at all to this fight? He had TPM Kenobi beat. . .okay? How does that mean anything in this fight?

General Grievous beat people like Ki-Adi-Mundi, Shaak Ti, Aayla Secura (those three, and two others at one time), T'Chooka, Soon Baytes, and numerous other Jedi masters, knights, and so on.

TPM Kenobi is a gnat compared to General Grievous. I'd submit Grievous would've done a far better job than Maul against a pissed off Kenobi. But that doesn't matter really: how is him having TPM Kenobi beat relevant?



He's also not as intelligent as Grievous either. And how will being "emotionless" save him from getting his head, arm, and both legs severed by Grievous' blades? How will being "well disciplined" save him from two finely placed blades - one through his heart, the other through his abdomen?

Answer: It won't.



Sorry, but that just doesn't make sense at all. How does Dooku's quote mean it'd be like the fight in TPM? As well, that quote itself is pretty meaningless, and holds no bearing over a fight.



I can only say "no", and "read my previous post". If Maul engaged Grievous in a lightsaber duel, he'd die.

Eeeek Double Post somehow

=/

Wow, I messed those quotes up bad....

Originally posted by Advent
How is that relevant at all to this fight? He had TPM Kenobi beat. . .okay? How does that mean anything in this fight?
To show Maul wasn't less than Obi-Wan
Originally posted by Advent
General Grievous beat people like Ki-Adi-Mundi, Shaak Ti, Aayla Secura (those three, and two others at one time), T'Chooka, Soon Baytes, and numerous other Jedi masters, knights, and so on.
So? He lost to ROTS Obi-Wan, by himself, those other Jedi have no relevance here, Maul was about as good as Mace I would say, he may not be able to take hordes of Jedi, but he can kill them solo in a duel, which is what this fight is about
Originally posted by Advent
TPM Kenobi is a gnat compared to General Grievous. I'd submit Grievous would've done a far better job than Maul against a pissed off Kenobi. But that doesn't matter really: how is him having TPM Kenobi beat relevant?
He used Strategy to beat him, and to show he wasn't weaker than Obi-Wan


Originally posted by Advent
He's also not as intelligent as Grievous either. And how will being "emotionless" save him from getting his head, arm, and both legs severed by Grievous' blades? How will being "well disciplined" save him from two finely placed blades - one through his heart, the other through his abdomen?

Answer: It won't.
General Grievous relied on surprise and Fear, they wouldn't affect Maul at all, thats how he beat most of the Jedi, Dooku said without it, it would be better to retreat



Originally posted by Advent
Sorry, but that just doesn't make sense at all. How does Dooku's quote mean it'd be like the fight in TPM? As well, that quote itself is pretty meaningless, and holds no bearing over a fight.
He needs the Fear/Surprise to win, the Jedi feared him, and wouldn't be fighting at normal, Maul would be focused



Originally posted by Advent
I can only say "no", and "read my previous post". If Maul engaged Grievous in a lightsaber duel, he'd die.

Answer the question did LOE Grievous have 4 Arms or 2? With 4 he would win the duel, no doubt, that's why I voted Grievous, but with just 2, Maul would probably win, especially if he used the Force. You seem to be Angry a lot of the time

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
To show Maul wasn't less than Obi-Wan

No one said he was. However, during TPM the fight was described as "evenly" for awhile, Maul was pushed back, and he was outmaneuvered at a point by an enraged padawan. While he's better on paper, Kenobi was able to contend.



Actually they do. I hardly see how taking on five Jedi at a time, all of whom combined are more powerful than Maul, is irrelevant. It's showing you his saber skills, and the fact he's near unstoppable by Jedi.

And losing to ROTS Obi-Wan is hardly a bad thing. If you recall, didn't Kenobi almost die? Yeah, had there been no blaster he would've been killed. TPM Kenobi, however, would've been led to slaughter will minimal ease, whereas he gave Maul trouble.

Either way, the only real reason why Obi-Wan actually was able to disarm Grievous is because of Soresu. I can't see Maul blocking 16 swings a second given he knows Juyo.



You have to be a fanboy then. ROTS Mace Windu would kill Maul. Maul cannot even beat ROTS Obi-Wan. LOL! As good as Mace? LMFAO. You must not know much about Mace then. Maul would be crushed. Put up a good lightsaber fight, but not that good. Grievous would have a better chance in a lightsaber duel against Mace than Maul.

Anyways, have you read LOE? Mace and Grievous fought:

"Again and again the three blades joined, in snarling attacks and parries. As Mace already knew from Ki-Adi-Mundi and Shaak Ti, Grievous was well trained in the Jedi arts. He could recognize the hand of Dooku in the general's training and technique. His strikes were as forceful as any Mace had ever had to counter, and his speed was astonishing."

As forceful as any Mace had ever met, and he's noted as being well trained. If he can give Mace trouble, it's ridiculous to assume Maul could beat him.

"His sole setting was attack. Successful at analyzing Mace's lightsaber style, those same computers suggested that Grievous alter his stance and posture, along with the angle of his parries, ripostes, and thrusts."

Grievous' computer brain can go so far as to analyze what he should do to win. While it didn't exactly work on Kenobi, that's hardly reason to think it won't work on Maul. Who is not as level headed, and not as smart as Obi-Wan is.



I'd submit the Shaak Ti, Ki-Adi-Mundi, Aayla Secura, and two other Jedi Knights pose more of a threat than any single Jedi Maul's ever faced. And you don't think Grievous can take out Jedi in a solo duel? Haha. I guess that's why he killed Adi Gallia one on one:

http://img457.imageshack.us/img457/3818/grievouspwnsadi2wg2.th.jpg

I guess that's why his Jedi kill count is through the roof (either twenty or thirty Jedi kills).

Seriously, Maul could never beat Grievous in a lightsaber duel. Maul is not nearly as good as ROTS Obi-Wan, who would wipe his ass with Maul. Adding to the fact Maul doesn't use a defensive form, which I'd submit is what actually saved him.

And obviously not he can't off Jedi with ease in a single duel, since he was surprised by a single padawan and the fight was described as "evenly" for a time. If you'll read what I wrote about the TPM fight, you'd know.



Strategy? Lol. You realize Grievous is a mastermind, military genius? First of all, Maul is nowhere even close to being as smart, and strategic as Grievous. And Grievous is more powerful than TPM Kenobi, he's more powerful than AOTC Kenobi, he's more powerful than Qui-Gon.

And again, Grievous is stated to be "more powerful than Asajj Ventress", who was giving both Obi-Wan and Anakin right before ROTS a run for their money. Adding to the fact Asajj is equal to, or possibly even above Maul.



Oh? Surprise wouldn't affect Maul?

"The Sith Lord was borne backward by the Jedi Knight's initial rush, caught off guard by the other's wild assault, and pressed all the way back to the far wall of the melting pit."

Being caught off guard means he was surprised. Given it's expanded upon that he was surprised. So, you're simply wrong. Anyways, Grievous did not rely upon fear (since I've already established Maul can be surprised):

http://img332.imageshack.us/img332/9343/tchookamm7.th.jpg
http://img385.imageshack.us/img385/4306/tchookadeathfw0.th.jpg

How is this guy "fearing" Grievous? He's not. "Skilled and courageous", seems this guy didn't fear his death at all, but guess what? He died, too. Feel free to try again.



Prove Grievous needs fear and surprise to win. Oh? You can't? Probably because I've already proven that Maul can be surprised (TPM novel), and that Grievous kills a Jedi Master described as "strong in the Force" and "great skills" without needing fear. And he does it with minimal ease.

Count Dooku's words are some bullshit it seems. You cannot take advice literally. If we were to rely on people's word, then Anakin is a "better Jedi" than Obi-Wan, he's a stronger one, but not a "better" one. You are taking the Count's quote far out of context.

Ok, I admit you beat me there mostly, but did Grievous have all 4 arms or not in LOE? With the 4, Grievous would easily take Maul in a matter of Seconds, chops the Lightsaber, and murders Maul, with 2 it ain't that easy

i'd definatly say maul, he is flesh and blood, so can react better than the robot general, plus he has force powers, greievous just have 4 sabers

Originally posted by Mesirus
i'd definatly say maul, he is flesh and blood, so can react better than the robot general, plus he has force powers, greievous just have 4 sabers

Force powers have little effect on GG. Also GG has a robotically enhanced brain, his reactions are better than Mauls even without the force.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Force powers have little effect on GG. Also GG has a robotically enhanced brain, his reactions are better than Mauls even without the force.

You forgot to add much of his techniques came from Dooku, therefore he automatically wins

Originally posted by zephiel7
You forgot to add much of his techniques came from Dooku, therefore he automatically wins

Of course!! How could I forget!!!

Originally posted by Mesirus
i'd definatly say maul, he is flesh and blood, so can react better than the robot general, plus he has force powers, greievous just have 4 sabers

What does "flesh and blood" have to do with anything? I'm pretty sure the twenty plus Jedi Grievous has killed, including Council Member Adi Gallia, are of flesh and blood. Grievous' cybernetics enhance his reflexes beyond belief, they make him faster than you can imagine, and they give him more physical strength than anyone in Star Wars naturally has. Just read this quote:

"His sole setting was attack. Successful at analyzing Mace's lightsaber style, those same computers suggested that Grievous alter his stance and posture, along with the angle of his parries, ripostes, and thrusts."

The computer lets him know what to do. And Grievous on his own is far more intelligent and battle worthy than Maul, with a droid body and electronic enhancements - he's basically just what they described him, a "killing machine".

And Force powers? The man dodged a Force push from Ki-Adi-Mundi. Maul more than likely wouldn't attempt a Force grip, and even if he did - we have no idea of how bad it'd affect Grievous, given it's even less damaging than Mace's Force crush. Force powers will not save Maul from being diced in half again.

Well Obi-Wan did Force Push Grievous into a Wall a long ways away, and it made him drop his Lightsabers, plus it seemed to wind him, so Force Powers would be a major player

'Maul more than likely wouldn't attempt a Force grip, and even if he did - we have no idea of how bad it'd affect Grievous, given it's even less damaging than Mace's Force crush.'

Why would it be less damaging than Mace's force crush? It would require less control to do (bigger area), and I'm pretty sure that Maul has the raw power to pull it off - though I'll have to skim through ShadowHunter to post some examples.

Originally posted by Sith'ari
Why would it be less damaging than Mace's force crush? It would require less control to do (bigger area), and I'm pretty sure that Maul has the raw power to pull it off - though I'll have to skim through ShadowHunter to post some examples.

Because for one, Force grip isn't even as powerful as Force crush. For two, Maul doesn't have the "raw power" to pull anything off near the level of Mace Windu. He's not even close on the scale in terms of Force powers. I'd submit Sidious' lightning is more powerful than Dooku's simply because Sidious himself is more powerful in the Force. Same with Mace and Maul.

And what are you talking about, "require less control"? The technique itself? You have to be in their line of sight, and you just said previously that it "requires more control but less power".

Originally posted by Advent
Because for one, Force grip isn't even as powerful as Force crush.

You mean force grip requires less raw power than force crush does right, because Force Grip can be as powerful as force crush depending on how much (energy, concentration, power etc.) you put into it, just like force crush can be more so than grip.

Anyways in response, just because something requires more raw power to affect it (crush, lft etc.), it doesn't mean that it would necessarily be harder to do - take this passage from ShadowHunter for instance:

She turned her focus back to their surroundings. It
still rankled her that she hadn't noticed the Cthons before
they had attacked, and she had vowed to herself not to let
something like that happen again. Seeking out life-forms
around her with the Force was a task with varying degrees of
difficulty. Intelligent, Force-sensitive beings were usually
easy to spot, of course, while lower-level forms-insects and
animals, for example-did not broadcast nearly much of a blip
on her mental radar. It was true that her mastery of the
Force was nowhere near perfect, but that was no excuse for
not doing the best she could. Her Twi'lek Master had once
explained to her that sensitivity and fine-tuning came with
time. "As a Padawan," he had said, "I could push boulders
around with ease, but seeds were next to impossible."

As you should be able to see from the passage, Annon Bondara as a padawan would be able to effortlessley push heavy boulders aorund, yet struggle with tiny seeds. You see, while the boulders were clearly heavier and require more force power to move, they also hold a much bigger presence in the force than the tiny seeds do, and thus require much less control to move and thus are easier to move.

It can easily be debated that performing a force grip would be harder than performing a force crush on the level of Mace's, and I'm pretty sure Maul has the raw force strength to be able to pull it off.

Originally posted by Advent
For two, Maul doesn't have the "raw power" to pull anything off near the level of Mace Windu. He's not even close on the scale in terms of Force powers. I'd submit Sidious' lightning is more powerful than Dooku's simply because Sidious himself is more powerful in the Force. Same with Mace and Maul.

I totally agree, however I don't get your point. If you're implying that Mace's force crush was the upper limit of his raw force strength, may I ask for proof?

Originally posted by Advent
And what are you talking about, "require less control"? The technique itself? You have to be in their line of sight, and you just said previously that it "requires more control but less power".

I don't get why you're confused - Crush requires more force power to pull of, but not as much control as Grip does...

I say Grievous would win. Grievous can use two sabers to keep Maul's doublesaber still and use the other two to attack Maul's head. Grievous is an overwhelming fighter who has taken on the best of the Jedi and survived. He killed several Jedi on Geonosis and many hundreds more in the Clone Wars (not the new TV show, which is biased toward the Republic)

Bump.

Also, for the sake of argument, let's continue this thread disregarding TCW/Canon Grievous's showings.

Why even?

Originally posted by |King Joker|
Also, for the sake of argument, let's continue this thread disregarding TCW/Canon Grievous's showings.

This Advent person makes a good argument, Grievous takes the majority.

Yeah, Advent was a Goddess.

Grievous imo. Close fight though.

You're all retarded Maul wins GG GG

Indeed.

Mauls stomps. Call me when GG isn't getting beaten by Eeth Koth, pls.

Originally posted by ILS
You're all retarded Maul wins GG GG

Proof et.