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Cosmic battle who wins?

phoenix gets pimpslapped into hell.
beyonder 100101010010110010101002/10

Which Beyonder(I'm only asking because there's about to a biiiiiiiig debate start, so I figured it would be better to cement the basics right out of the gate)?

His most powerful version...

Originally posted by joesha28
His most powerful version... well then...Originally posted by bigbran
phoenix gets pimpslapped into hell.
beyonder 100101010010110010101002/10

phoenix couldnt even burn a wart off his finger.

she couldnt even hurt his neighbor, Frank's dog.

spite thread.....closing.

It's has beaten Galactus.

Originally posted by joesha28
It's has beaten Galactus.

Galactus is an insect to the Beyonder.
http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/2965/doctordoomonthebeyonderob7.th.jpg

Actually, even less than an insect.
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/9421/xavieronthebeyonderdk4.th.jpg

But isn't Beyonder a nearly complete Cosmic cube?

Originally posted by joesha28
But isn't Beyonder a nearly complete Cosmic cube?

Yeah that is what the Real Beyonder is. Most of the people here are talking about the Beyonder before what he really is and what really happened was revealed (pre-retcon).

Beyonder blinks her out of existence.

No! beyonder winks her out of existence.

the thing is, there IS no pre-retcon beyonder. the retcon was such that everything he did was mere illusion.

so, phoenix 10/10.

Originally posted by manorastroman
the thing is, there IS no pre-retcon beyonder. the retcon was such that everything he did was mere illusion.

so, phoenix 10/10. even the beyonder after the ret conned would own phoenix.
and around these parts, we use beyonder at his fullest.

if i remember correctly the beyonder has already beaten the phoenix force, all of his great powers can be seen at this respect thread compliments of mr. master....there should be no debating after you see this http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f95/t412978.html

Originally posted by manorastroman
the thing is, there IS no pre-retcon beyonder. the retcon was such that everything he did was mere illusion.

so, phoenix 10/10.

I agree.

Since when does Death respond to anything?

Originally posted by thedude1948
I agree. but this thread says beyonder at his best, and retcon or not, that was still him at his best

go 2 this beyonder respect thread and then ull see
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f95/t412978.html

Beyonder wins this easily. It's not even a contest.

Originally posted by manorastroman
the thing is, there IS no pre-retcon beyonder. the retcon was such that everything he did was mere illusion.

so, phoenix 10/10.

The retcon was such, that they made him a Universe.

"that is why we have come to this UNIVERSE to find him"
"His power exploded into a New UNIVERSE"
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/7048/pbuni1ru8.th.jpg

"NOT JUST the sun, johnny. Beyonder is EVERYTHING in this UNIVERSE"
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/2784/pb8ej1.th.jpg

This is a battle between POST-Retcon Beyonder and Kubik.

Yes...this is the famous issue that RETCONNED Beyonder.

During this confrontation the Universe is POST-Retcon Beyonder.
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/9278/postbbattleskubikns0.th.jpg

Beyonder and Molecule join and become a Cosmic Containment Unit
http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/1153/biscube1nb8.th.jpg
http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/9499/biscube2gb7.th.jpg

Even after this, Shaper of Worlds clarifies it it for us.
POST-Retcon Beyonder was a Universe...
http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/7953/biscube3nh2.th.jpg
NOT as powerful as Eternity though


Later we learn that killing POST-Retcon Beyonder (who was then Kosmos) would collapse the Multi-verse.

"to rend the Life Force of such a being as the Beyonder"
"Havoc unthinkable would be wrecked across Multiversal Cosmography"
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/1825/beyonderandmmbattleagain3mu7.th.jpg

Thanos says his only recollection of the Beyonder or Kosmos is Unlimited power...he repeats this.
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/666/maker2bu1.th.jpg
This is Thanos after having possessed a Cosmic Cube that made him a Universe...after having the Infinity Gauntlet that made him "God"...after having THOU...which absorbed Living Tribunal.

Years later:

Here Gladiator calls the Maker "the most powerful being in the known Universe"...
and refers to it as a god...but it decided to take on mortal form, which made it insane and vulnerable.
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/1605/maker9rl6.th.jpg


Beyonder was retconned, but then became more powerful as time passed on, as did the Owen Reece.

But with the retcon Beyonder became an essential force in the Multi-verse, so much so, that if he were to die, the Multi-verse would collapse.

Pre-retcon Beyonder - Post Retcon Beyonder - Kosmos - the Maker

Every version takes this.

well if we're going by beyonder at his best, and the whole of the phoenix force, then it's still phoenix 10/10.

i seem to remember beyonder (pre-retcon) attempting to absorb the phoenix from rachel and then saying something along the lines of "so much power! even i could not contain it!"

i'm sure GS has the scan.

bigbran, post-retcon beyonder would most certainly not defeat the entirety of the force. rachel alone has better showings against galactus than any cube being. and don't even start with the "around here", new guy.

Originally posted by manorastroman
well if we're going by beyonder at his best, and the whole of the phoenix force, then it's still phoenix 10/10.

i seem to remember beyonder (pre-retcon) attempting to absorb the phoenix from rachel and then saying something along the lines of "so much power! even i could not contain it!"

i'm sure GS has the scan.

bigbran, post-retcon beyonder would most certainly not defeat the entirety of the force. rachel alone has better showings against galactus than any cube being. and don't even start with the "around here", new guy. I think not. I seem to recall, that when post- retconned Beyonder, was fighting a guy, that was throwing universes at him.
I also seem to recall, Beyonder had given phoenix enough power to kill him. wait, beyonder gave her the power, not the force.
Rachel has a pretty good showing against Beyonder, no wait, she threw alot of power at him, to no effect.

please, coherency is a very admirable feature.

Originally posted by manorastroman
please, coherency is a very admirable feature. look at this thread, it shown pre ret beyonder taking the most powerful attack that phoenix could muster without even flinching http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f95/t412978.html

Rachel blasted Beyonder multiple times with zero effect. Her power was nothing compared to his.

the phoenix force is a very powerful entity in its own right, but its power exists only in a single universe.........beyonders power is millions of times greater then the mulitverse combined its all shown here http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f95/t412978.html

that was just rachel. the thread states the entirety of the force.

i'm waiting for GS to direct me to that scan. it does exist. pre-retcon beyonder is stating that phoenix force has too much power.

and how can the phoenix power only exist in this universe when jean has HELD this universe in her hands? not to mention all the AU phoenix appearances.

goon.

Originally posted by manorastroman
that was just rachel. the thread states the entirety of the force.

i'm waiting for GS to direct me to that scan. it does exist. pre-retcon beyonder is stating that phoenix force has too much power. that wouldnt have been pre ret beyonder if thats true

Originally posted by manorastroman
that was just rachel. the thread states the entirety of the force.

i'm waiting for GS to direct me to that scan. it does exist. pre-retcon beyonder is stating that phoenix force has too much power.

and how can the phoenix power only exist in this universe when jean has HELD this universe in her hands? not to mention all the AU phoenix appearances.

goon. cough. your waiting for gs to do this? just so you know, beyonder gave phoenix enough power to kill him. beyonder could do anything, and he would easily dispatch the whole force.

Originally posted by bigbran
cough. your waiting for gs to do this? just so you know, beyonder gave phoenix enough power to kill him. beyonder could do anything, and he would easily dispatch the whole force. agreed, the only way pre ret beyonder could be beaten is if he wanted to.........he is as powerful as he chooses to be

Originally posted by manorastroman
well if we're going by beyonder at his best, and the whole of the phoenix force, then it's still phoenix 10/10.

Pre-Retcon Beyonder erases the PF from existence 99/10.

Originally posted by manorastroman
i seem to remember beyonder (pre-retcon) attempting to absorb the phoenix from rachel and then saying something along the lines of "so much power! even i could not contain it!"

hysterical2

Originally posted by manorastroman
i'm sure GS has the scan.

Don't worry I have the scan, and the extra scans that explain that story.

Originally posted by manorastroman
i seem to remember beyonder (pre-retcon) attempting to absorb the phoenix from rachel and then saying something along the lines of "so much power! even i could not contain it!"

To begin with,

It is Beyonder that gives Rachel Summers that power that is BEYOND the Phoenix Force.

Beyonder gives Rachel enough power to kill him
http://img330.imageshack.us/img330/9738/rachelcankillbdi2.th.jpg
"I offer you a choice, Phoenix...you may SLAY me"
"I herewith grant YOU SUFFICIENT Power to do so"

Rachel knows this...and plans on using it against Beyonder.
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/6452/beyondermakesphoenixgodlike2lb1.th.jpg


Beyonder gave Phoenix the power of the Force, and beyond.
http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/5571/pfvy1.th.jpg
"She has become ALL she EVER dreamed of...and FAR, FAR more.

"When my mom came to this place to SAVE the universe"
http://img313.imageshack.us/img313/6237/pf2kc3.th.jpg

"It's only fair you be with me...when I DESTROY it"
http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/1898/pf3bx2.th.jpg

Rachel blows JAHF (protector of the Crystal) out the way like if he wasn't even there.
http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/913/pf4hb5.th.jpg

Rachel was about to Unleash the Neutron Galaxy by shattering it's protective Energy Sphere
http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/7703/pf5rx0.th.jpg
This Energy Sphere holds back the Neutron Galaxy from collapsing the Universe and eventually the Multiverse.

Rachel was going to crack it open...with the power Beyonder gave her, that turned her into Phoenix (exactly like Jean Grey according to the Watcher) and MORE.

This is why she didn't do it, she connected with every being in the Universe, and saw how meaningful and precious every individual life is.
http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/5649/whyye9.th.jpghttp://img113.imageshack.us/img113/9520/why2oy7.th.jpg


Continues in the next post...

Rachel with the help of X-Men understands, she shouldn't destroy the Universe.
http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/6747/why3xy0.th.jpg
http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/194/why4ok9.th.jpg

While Rachel still has a portion of Beyonder's power, he says:

"Except PERHAPS Phoenix, you are less to me than the Amoeba is to you"
http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/5769/why5jq4.th.jpg

Beyonder's goal was to make Humanity one with the Universe
http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/7946/why6li1.th.jpg

This is funny,
even with the Power Beyonder gave her, which made her the Phoenix Force and Beyond,

"you are what you are solely because I will it"
http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/1091/why7wf3.th.jpg

"therefore, I require the return of what is rightfully mine, in full"
http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/8325/beyondermkraanuh7.th.jpg
That's the Beyonder talking about the Power he gave Rachel.


This is the scan you were talking about:

"All that Phoenix experienced..the totality of Life, in ALL it's forms...is now his"
http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/6061/why8cl1.th.jpg
This has nothing to do with her power,
but with how precious even one life is,
Beyonder was overwhelmed by the beauty of life,
even ones that are like less than an Amoeba to him.

Which is why Storm say's:

"We each have our little lives, our destinies, our unique paths to walk"
http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/6127/why9kl4.th.jpg

"I find myself, envying your Humanity...your race is trully blessed"
http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/1048/why10sc5.th.jpg

Beyonder vs Phoenix


Beyonder: "I begin...but have no ending"
http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/1700/pfvsb1xg8.th.jpg

Phoenix comes in for the Attack
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/6880/pfvsb2xe4.th.jpg

Rachel Summers uses ALL the power she can muster as Phoenix.
http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/7213/beyondervsrachelds6.th.jpg

Beyonder didn't even flinch.
http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/4237/beyondervsrachel2kf1.th.jpg
Beyonder withstands another Full frontal assault.
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/5579/pfvsb4xi6.th.jpg
Beyonder: "does that outburst make you feel better"...lol

Then Beyonder decides to become Death for a while, and takes Phoenix on a trip through Time and Space to teach her a lesson.
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/4359/pfvsb5ws6.th.jpg

On another occasion she tries again.
http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/733/beyondervsrachel3rm5.th.jpg
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/8926/beyondervsrachel4kf4.th.jpg

Here is the ultimate ABC test.

Phoenix fought and beat Galactus.
Galactus tried to pierce Beyonder's shield, and was knocked out cold for hours for his troubles.

Beyonder made humble even LT. and to all you nuts that say, omg. retcon. You have to realize that PreRetcon beyonder is how he was MEANT to be. check the writers. its what was the originally story. But other writers that came later didn't like it, and CHANGED the story. Thats why its pre-retcon, and post retcon...

kinda like how we have pre infinite crisis superman.... and post...
because pre ic superman... he was basically god in a cape...

Originally posted by manorastroman

bigbran, post-retcon beyonder would most certainly not defeat the entirety of the force. rachel alone has better showings against galactus than any cube being. and don't even start with the "around here", new guy.

Rachel was also controlled easily by Mordred to help him free Chthon, the elder god of earth. Quasar came along and held his own against Rachel and Mordred. I'll have scans of this up tomorrow. And thnx to Validus heads up on this.

PR Beyonder takes this easily 10/10. Mr. Master has brought up enough scans to back up Beyonder's omnipotence. PF is all hype backed up by assumptions.

Originally posted by rotiart
Here is the ultimate ABC test.

Phoenix fought and beat Galactus.
Galactus tried to pierce Beyonder's shield, and was knocked out cold for hours for his troubles.

Beyonder made humble even LT. and to all you nuts that say, omg. retcon. You have to realize that PreRetcon beyonder is how he was MEANT to be. check the writers. its what was the originally story. But other writers that came later didn't like it, and CHANGED the story. Thats why its pre-retcon, and post retcon...

kinda like how we have pre infinite crisis superman.... and post...
because pre ic superman... he was basically god in a cape...

does nobody understand the concept of a retcon? look. in continuity, it was revealed that beyonder's feats were illusion, which means that everything in secret wars never really happened. it doesn't matter how the writers intended it, and we'll never know anyway. what matters is that beyonder NEVER did anything it appeared he did "pre-retcon". you following me? i'm putting stress on the word never for a reason.

that is the scan i was looking for, mr. master...and it brings up a very interesting point. how could the "omniscient", "omnipotent" beyonder learn anything?

moreover, there's still the issue of that being rachel grey rather than the totality of the force.

Originally posted by manorastroman
does nobody understand the concept of a retcon? look. in continuity, it was revealed that beyonder's feats were illusion, which means that everything in secret wars never really happened. it doesn't matter how the writers intended it, and we'll never know anyway. what matters is that beyonder NEVER did anything it appeared he did "pre-retcon". you following me? i'm putting stress on the word never for a reason.

This ISN'T A COMIC BOOK. It's a FORUM BATTLE. Continuity can be halted and certain characters and versions used if we want. Is it really hard to focus on stories of Beyonder before it was retconned?

Originally posted by manorastroman
does nobody understand the concept of a retcon? look. in continuity, it was revealed that beyonder's feats were illusion,
what matters is that beyonder NEVER did anything it appeared he did "pre-retcon". you following me?

I see how you feel.

This is the deal.

They were never "illusions", I don't know where you got that from.

They were "partial incarnations"...which are very real.
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/3567/kosmosfx6.th.jpg

Before the ret-con, what Beyonder did on panel is VALID in a vs thread if you specify "PRE-Retcon Beyonder"

I showed you the scans where POST-retcon Beyonder can collapse the Multi-verse with his death...you must've missed that.

"to rend the Life Force of such a being as the Beyonder"
"Havoc unthinkable would be wrecked across Multiversal Cosmography"
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/1825/beyonderandmmbattleagain3mu7.th.jpg
POST-retcon Beyonder is an essential force in reality.

I showed when POST-retcon Beyonder & POST-retcon Molecule Man battled, they where collapsing the Multiverse.

"from the Quantum to the Trans-Multiversal, Reality trembles as the forces unleashed reverberate through out creation"
http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/5499/beyonderandmmbattleagainbp6.th.jpghttp://img90.imageshack.us/img90/999/beyonderandmmbattlesagain2rv5.th.jpg
Realize how ALL Reality is falling apart because of them, (both are POST-Retcon).
A WATCHER even goes blind in another Universe.

They are WARPING Universes in this fight


Now when has Phoenix (any version) rocked the Multi-verse?

Don't hold your breath on that one.


Originally posted by manorastroman
that is the scan i was looking for, mr. master...and it brings up a very interesting point. how could the "omniscient", "omnipotent" beyonder learn anything?

Logan will answer that one for you.
http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/4193/knowaw7.th.jpg

Originally posted by manorastroman
moreover, there's still the issue of that being rachel grey rather than the totality of the force.

If you want to ignore On Panel art and character statements (from the Watcher no less) that's your prerogative.
http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/5571/pfvy1.th.jpg
"She has become ALL she EVER dreamed of...and FAR, FAR more.
"as Jean Grey once faced this ultimate trial, so must HER child"

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
This ISN'T A COMIC BOOK. It's a FORUM BATTLE. Continuity can be halted and certain characters and versions used if we want. Is it really hard to focus on stories of Beyonder before it was retconned?

Originally posted by Mr Master


wine

Originally posted by manorastroman
does nobody understand the concept of a retcon? look. in continuity, it was revealed that beyonder's feats were illusion, which means that everything in secret wars never really happened.

The illuision was his actual level of power as opposed to his percieved level of power. Basically the retcon just made it so he wasn't more powerful than everyone in the multiverse(including abstracts) combined. If the Secret Wars never really happend, we wouldn't have Venom. So basicaly, even if you using the recton, he couldn't take the Living Tribunal 1 on 1, but he was still a multiversal being of emmense power(just not as much as everyone else thought) who COULD beat the likes of Eternity and as was proven Multi-Death).

Originally posted by darthgoober
The illuision was his actual level of power as opposed to his percieved level of power. Basically the retcon just made it so he wasn't more powerful than everyone in the multiverse(including abstracts) combined. If the Secret Wars never really happend, we wouldn't have Venom. So basicaly, even if you using the recton, he couldn't take the Living Tribunal 1 on 1, but he was still a multiversal being of emmense power(just not as much as everyone else thought) who COULD beat the likes of Eternity and as was proven Multi-Death). Its not that everyone else thought that though, its that they pretended along with him to help ease him into the reality of it.



Is this thread even "Pre Retcon Beyonder"?
It just looks like it says Beyonder to me.

Originally posted by darthgoober
. If the Secret Wars never really happend, we wouldn't have Venom.

Wisdom.

Originally posted by Juntai
Its not that everyone else thought that though, its that they pretended along with him to help ease him into the reality of it.


I was talking about the heros thinking it, I knew the abstracts were in the know.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Wisdom.

Thank You.

Originally posted by Juntai
Is this thread even "Pre Retcon Beyonder"?
It just looks like it says Beyonder to me.

Yes it is Pre Retcon.

When the thread starter was asked, which version of Beyonder.

He replied.

Originally posted by joesha28
His most powerful version...

couldnt post ret conned beyonder also beat phoenix hard?

Originally posted by Mr Master
Yes it is Pre Retcon.

When the thread starter was asked, which version of Beyonder.

He replied. ok, I cant always be bothered to read every post.

Originally posted by manorastroman
does nobody understand the concept of a retcon? look. in continuity, it was revealed that beyonder's feats were illusion, which means that everything in secret wars never really happened. it doesn't matter how the writers intended it, and we'll never know anyway. what matters is that beyonder NEVER did anything it appeared he did "pre-retcon". you following me? i'm putting stress on the word never for a reason.

that is the scan i was looking for, mr. master...and it brings up a very interesting point. how could the "omniscient", "omnipotent" beyonder learn anything?

moreover, there's still the issue of that being rachel grey rather than the totality of the force.

on panel proof says he has the power of millions of multiverses.. .he didn't say it. narrator did.

phoenix was given power by the beyonder, and it was related to being on panel, equivalent to jean grey as phoenix when she restored the mkrann crystal.

galactus was humbled by beyonder. knocked clean out without even a thought.

Even LT was fearful of Beyonder. What is fear, but another term for respect.

and as for pre-retcon. This fight is both beings, shown at their strongest. get it through your head.

Just because you know all, and see all, isn't the same thing as understanding it all. Wisdom, is not the same as Intelligence.

You would respect a man with a gun to your face?

I grovel in fear before the combined might of WhiteWitchKing, Mr. Master... But whats scarier is finding BigBran managed to use the words conned, hard, post and beat all in the same sentence in reference to a guy and a girl

Originally posted by rotiart
I grovel in fear before the combined might of WhiteWitchKing, Mr. Master... But whats scarier is finding BigBran managed to use the words conned, hard, post and beat all in the same sentence in reference to a guy and a girl

Originally posted by bigbran
couldnt post ret conned beyonder also beat phoenix hard?

Yes.

Originally posted by manorastroman

moreover, there's still the issue of that being rachel grey rather than the totality of the force.

Rachel controlled by Mordred (servant of Chthon). Quasar takes on both Mordred and Rachel.

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/6793/quasar0001vsphoenixkh2.th.jpghttp://img148.imageshack.us/img148/868/quasar0002vsphoenixdt2.th.jpghttp://img228.imageshack.us/img228/8431/quasar0003vsphoenixtl7.th.jpghttp://img144.imageshack.us/img144/5422/quasar0004vsphoenixow8.th.jpg

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/2958/quasar0005vsphoenixcr0.th.jpghttp://img144.imageshack.us/img144/6567/quasar0006vsphoenixfy7.th.jpghttp://img226.imageshack.us/img226/1405/quasar0007vsphoenixii6.th.jpg

Not too shabby eh? Quasar holding his own against Rachel.


http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/5442/quasar0008vsphoenixvb1.th.jpghttp://img91.imageshack.us/img91/6610/quasar0009vsphoenixyd0.th.jpghttp://img145.imageshack.us/img145/929/quasar0010vsphoenixgx1.th.jpghttp://img155.imageshack.us/img155/102/quasar0011vsphoenixpc2.th.jpghttp://img205.imageshack.us/img205/7203/quasar0012vsphoenixws8.th.jpg

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/3900/quasar0013vsphoenixqe8.th.jpghttp://img147.imageshack.us/img147/4563/quasar0014vsphoenixts3.th.jpghttp://img147.imageshack.us/img147/4563/quasar0014vsphoenixts3.th.jpghttp://img92.imageshack.us/img92/8782/quasar0015vsphoenixxg8.th.jpg

Rachel getting knocked out by Thor. (Courtesy of Validus)

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/9842/thor0015ownsphoenixwe7.th.jpg



Dormammu beating up Giraud & the GG.

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/4535/dormammu0001vsgiraudqz2.th.jpghttp://img99.imageshack.us/img99/76/dormammu0002vsgiraudlp8.th.jpghttp://img92.imageshack.us/img92/1637/dormammu0003vsgiraudry0.th.jpghttp://img92.imageshack.us/img92/5258/dormammu0004vsgiraudvy5.th.jpg

http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/2796/dormammu0006vsgiraudlk9.th.jpghttp://img92.imageshack.us/img92/4837/dormammu0007vsgiraudin4.th.jpghttp://img92.imageshack.us/img92/5113/dormammu0008vsgiraudrb1.th.jpg



Most experienced host Jean Grey getting killed by Xorn.

http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/1975/phoenixnewxmen0011xornof9.th.jpg

http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/3180/phoenixressurection20011lb5.th.jpghttp://img83.imageshack.us/img83/2664/phoenixressurection20012dv2.th.jpghttp://img141.imageshack.us/img141/7549/phoenixressurection20013ja2.th.jpghttp://img141.imageshack.us/img141/9409/phoenixressurection20014uh9.th.jpg

Looks like though it may be powerful, the Force and hosts are still vulnerable to top tier heroes/villains and teams. Beyonder would maul the Force.

http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=3213411

i like how mr master left out this scan. where i come from, this is called overpowering.

Beyonder

Beyonder 100000000002/10

Originally posted by manorastroman
http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=3213411

i like how mr master left out this scan. where i come from, this is called overpowering.

True, he was trying to stop her and he couldn't.

Besides, the original post said Phoenix Force Vs Beyonder, not avatars of the Phoenix Force.

I think the only time we have ever seen the Phoenix Force fight anybody was against Galactus.

Originally posted by manorastroman
http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=3213411

i like how mr master left out this scan. where i come from, this is called overpowering.

Lovely, the way you don't even read my entire post then post a meaningless pic and claim that I left something out, as if I'm being sneaky.


Beyonder gives Rachel enough power to kill him
http://img330.imageshack.us/img330/9738/rachelcankillbdi2.th.jpg
"I offer you a choice, Phoenix...you may SLAY me"
"I herewith grant YOU SUFFICIENT Power to do so"

Rachel was going to crack it open...with the power Beyonder gave her, that turned her into Phoenix (exactly like Jean Grey according to the Watcher) and MORE.

This is why she didn't do it, she connected with every being in the Universe, and saw how meaningful and precious every individual life is.
http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/5649/whyye9.th.jpghttp://img113.imageshack.us/img113/9520/why2oy7.th.jpg
Read the scans dude before you reply incorrectly.

Rachel had touched the life of every single individual being in the Universe and saw their hopes their pains their potential.

Rachel with the help of X-Men understands, she shouldn't destroy the Universe.
http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/6747/why3xy0.th.jpg
http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/194/why4ok9.th.jpg
Because every tiny life-force is special.

When Beyonder was absorbing his power back, Rachel also gave him what she EXPERIENCED a few posts ago, when she touched the lives of every being in the Universe.

"All that Phoenix experienced..the totality of Life, in ALL it's forms...is now his"
http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/6061/why8cl1.th.jpg
This has NOTHING to do with her power,

but with how precious even one life is,

Beyonder was overwhelmed by the beauty of life,

even ones that are less than an Amoeba to him.

"We each have our little lives, our destinies, our unique paths to walk"
http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/6127/why9kl4.th.jpg

"I find myself, envying your Humanity...your race is trully blessed"
http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/1048/why10sc5.th.jpg

Know how to interpret a scan before throwing accusations around.

"Overpowered"....hysterical2

Originally posted by HandOfFate
True, he was trying to stop her and he couldn't.



In case you forgot:
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/6452/beyondermakesphoenixgodlike2lb1.th.jpg
In that one moment while absorbing his power back, that was enough to kill him, Rachel was able to give Beyonder insight into the preciousness that is Human Life....youpi

Originally posted by HandOfFate
Besides, the original post said Phoenix Force Vs Beyonder, not avatars of the Phoenix Force.

According to Watcher Rachel was the Phoenix Force NOT some avatar.

Beyonder gave Phoenix the power of the Force, and beyond.
http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/5571/pfvy1.th.jpg
"She has become ALL she EVER dreamed of...and FAR, FAR more.

Originally posted by HandOfFate
I think the only time we have ever seen the Phoenix Force fight anybody was against Galactus.

Phoenix comes in for the Attack
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/6880/pfvsb2xe4.th.jpg

Rachel Summers uses ALL the power she can muster as Phoenix.
http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/7213/beyondervsrachelds6.th.jpg

Beyonder didn't even flinch.
http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/4237/beyondervsrachel2kf1.th.jpg
Beyonder withstands another Full frontal assault.
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/5579/pfvsb4xi6.th.jpg
Beyonder: "does that outburst make you feel better"...lol

Then Beyonder decides to become Death for a while, and takes Phoenix on a trip through Time and Space to teach her a lesson.
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/4359/pfvsb5ws6.th.jpg

On another occasion she tries again.
http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/733/beyondervsrachel3rm5.th.jpg
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/8926/beyondervsrachel4kf4.th.jpg

That is not the strongest nor most complete state of the FP
It is rachel, the weakest host of the FP.

Originally posted by What If...
That is not the strongest nor most complete state of the FP
It is rachel, the weakest host of the FP. Yes but, Beyonder beefed her up, so she would be over the Phoenix Force.

In the scans where she is randomly attacking...she is not beefed up.

And lost like a punk.

HMM..
Beyonder is above eternity, death and LT
I wonder who would woin this?

papa smurf

Originally posted by manorastroman
http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=3213411

i like how mr master left out this scan. where i come from, this is called overpowering.

Much as Mr Master hates it. This is beyonder trying to stop her, and failing.

THe only thing he can do is dismiss it out of hand and call it meaningless.

So sadly he is trying to be sneaky and deceptive.

And dude, the watchers a stooge. he only interpretes what he sees. Dude's not imperfect.

During the onslaught thing he said his duty of watching earth 616 was over, like it was destroyed... and yet life goes on.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Much as Mr Master hates it. This is beyonder trying to stop her, and failing.

THe only thing he can do is dismiss it out of hand and call it meaningless.

So sadly he is trying to be sneaky and deceptive.

And did she kill him? Who gave her that power again? And if she could actually killed him, why was it not used to power the Beyondersbane?

Rachel gets owned by Thor, controlled by Mordred, and stalemated by Quasar but you know, let's not bring that up either.

Jean Grey with the PF gets killed, but you know. Let's dismiss that as well.

The Ship of the Entity drained and abused the Phoenix Force. But you know, let's ignore this as well.


http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/332/phoenixressurection20001nh7.th.jpg



You mind telling that to G.S. who has used that reference of "second only to the creator" as one of his argument for Phoenix's place in the hierarchy.

It appears that GalacticStorm has dropped progeny. He should be proud.

Oh look red herrings that have no relevance whatsoever to what I said. *yawns*

Lets see.. did I say she killed him?

"Much as Mr Master hates it. This is beyonder trying to stop her, and failing.

THe only thing he can do is dismiss it out of hand and call it meaningless.

So sadly he is trying to be sneaky and deceptive.

And dude, the watchers a stooge. he only interpretes what he sees. Dude's not imperfect.

During the onslaught thing he said his duty of watching earth 616 was over, like it was destroyed... and yet life goes on."

No, I don't think I used the word kill...

So What relevance does anything either of you said have to what I said?

None... So, what's my motivation for countering your arguments?

checking.... Checking...

Sorry, can't find any reason to respond further.

jesus, this new class gets mighty uppity might fast.

Originally posted by Creshosk
Oh look red herrings that have no relevance whatsoever to what I said. *yawns*

Lets see.. did I say she killed him?

"Much as Mr Master hates it. This is beyonder trying to stop her, and failing.

THe only thing he can do is dismiss it out of hand and call it meaningless.

So sadly he is trying to be sneaky and deceptive.

And dude, the watchers a stooge. he only interpretes what he sees. Dude's not imperfect.

During the onslaught thing he said his duty of watching earth 616 was over, like it was destroyed... and yet life goes on."

No, I don't think I used the word kill...

So What relevance does anything either of you said have to what I said?

None... So, what's my motivation for countering your arguments?

checking.... Checking...

Sorry, can't find any reason to respond further.
Yes, but Rachel don't use her own powersurce. She uses Beyonder's.
And she didn't defeat him in the end... So what does this tells you?

Originally posted by bigbran
Yes but, Beyonder beefed her up, so she would be over the Phoenix Force.

Ummmm....where on Earth did you get that from?

Originally posted by Mr Master
http://img73.imageshack.us/img73/5571/pfvy1.th.jpg
"She has become ALL she EVER dreamed of...and FAR, FAR more.

Absolute rubbish! Can you please quote the bit where Watcher said Rachel was the Phoenix Force?

It says the Phoenix rises again, and what is Rachel? A Phoenix.

Please also bear in mind that the Phoenix Force placed restrictions on Rachels power meaning that she could only access it in limited amounts just to boost her own tp/tk talents.

So:

Rachel saying she used all the power she could muster in that attack on Beyonder is meaningless in terms of how the Phoenix Force/Jean Grey stacks up to him.

The Beyonder boosting her powers to previously unheard of levels similarly says nothing about how he stacks up against the Force/Jean Grey.

The fact of the matter is that in terms of on panel feats Jean Grey outclasses the Beyonder conclusively. Thats all that has to be said on the matter.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Absolute rubbish! Can you please quote the bit where Watcher said Rachel was the Phoenix Force?

It says the Phoenix rises again, and what is Rachel? A Phoenix.

Please also bear in mind that the Phoenix Force placed restrictions on Rachels power meaning that she could only access it in limited amounts just to boost her own tp/tk talents.

So:

Rachel saying she used all the power she could muster in that attack on Beyonder is meaningless in terms of how the Phoenix Force/Jean Grey stacks up to him.

The Beyonder boosting her powers to previously unheard of levels similarly says nothing about how he stacks up against the Force/Jean Grey.

The fact of the matter is that in terms of on panel feats Jean Grey outclasses the Beyonder conclusively. Thats all that has to be said on the matter. What the hell are you talking about?
Beyonder beat her each and every time.
And unless phoenix is over every abstract, she loses...
Badly!!!

Originally posted by bigbran
What the hell are you talking about?
Beyonder beat her each and every time.
And unless phoenix is over every abstract, she loses...
Badly!!!
Look the guy is out of his mind...
First he builds up a theory, than bulldoze it - all of it.
If you read some of his old post and look at his current, you would have truble understanding if it really was the same guy that wrote them.
And his theories become more and more twisted.
The most links between his proof, is merely far-fetched speculation.

Can't belive I really looked up to this guy before I joined the forum.

Originally posted by Mr Master
The retcon was such, that they made him a Universe.

"that is why we have come to this UNIVERSE to find him"
"His power exploded into a New UNIVERSE"
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/7048/pbuni1ru8.th.jpg

"NOT JUST the sun, johnny. Beyonder is EVERYTHING in this UNIVERSE"
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/2784/pb8ej1.th.jpg

This is a battle between POST-Retcon Beyonder and Kubik.

Yes...this is the famous issue that RETCONNED Beyonder.

During this confrontation the Universe is POST-Retcon Beyonder.
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/9278/postbbattleskubikns0.th.jpg

Beyonder and Molecule join and become a Cosmic Containment Unit
http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/1153/biscube1nb8.th.jpg
http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/9499/biscube2gb7.th.jpg

Even after this, Shaper of Worlds clarifies it it for us.
POST-Retcon Beyonder was a Universe...
http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/7953/biscube3nh2.th.jpg
NOT as powerful as Eternity though


Later we learn that killing POST-Retcon Beyonder (who was then Kosmos) would collapse the Multi-verse.

"to rend the Life Force of such a being as the Beyonder"
"Havoc unthinkable would be wrecked across Multiversal Cosmography"
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/1825/beyonderandmmbattleagain3mu7.th.jpg

Thanos says his only recollection of the Beyonder or Kosmos is Unlimited power...he repeats this.
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/666/maker2bu1.th.jpg
This is Thanos after having possessed a Cosmic Cube that made him a Universe...after having the Infinity Gauntlet that made him "God"...after having THOU...which absorbed Living Tribunal.

Years later:

Here Gladiator calls the Maker "the most powerful being in the known Universe"...
and refers to it as a god...but it decided to take on mortal form, which made it insane and vulnerable.
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/1605/maker9rl6.th.jpg


Beyonder was retconned, but then became more powerful as time passed on, as did the Owen Reece.

But with the retcon Beyonder became an essential force in the Multi-verse, so much so, that if he were to die, the Multi-verse would collapse.

Pre-retcon Beyonder - Post Retcon Beyonder - Kosmos - the Maker

Every version takes this.

all good but...... there were other scans (that i posted)

Which showed that even beyonder , and MM post rect....... were no match for even Celestials

THe cubes might ahve potentials......... to be greater etc........ but it's lit's like Nate , Cable and all that bow wow

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Can you please quote the bit where Watcher said Rachel was the Phoenix Force?
It says the Phoenix rises again, and what is Rachel? A Phoenix.

It says more than that.
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/8158/jeaniu9.th.jpg
"as JEAN GREY once faced this trial"

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Please also bear in mind that the Phoenix Force placed restrictions on Rachels power meaning that she could only access it in limited amounts just to boost her own tp/tk talents.

Oh, we know that.

But you must of missed the part when Beyonder GAVE her the Power.
http://img330.imageshack.us/img330/9738/rachelcankillbdi2.th.jpg
"I offer you a choice, Phoenix...you may SLAY me"
"I herewith grant YOU SUFFICIENT Power to do so"

And she knew damn well she had this power.
http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/6452/beyondermakesphoenixgodlike2lb1.th.jpg

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Rachel saying she used all the power she could muster in that attack on Beyonder is meaningless in terms of how the Phoenix Force/Jean Grey stacks up to him.

I agree with this.

When Rachel attacked Beyonder she was at Phoenix Avatar level.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The Beyonder boosting her powers to previously unheard of levels similarly says nothing about how he stacks up against the Force/Jean Grey.

Sorry buddy, but it does.

Beyonder gave Rachel the power of the Phoenix Force and beyond.

Rachel was planning to burst the Energy Sphere that contains the Neutron galaxy inside the Mkraan Crystal, in order to destroy the Universe, and she thought hopefully the Beyonder along with it.
http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/5081/rachel8ib0.th.jpg

This is interesting, she uses the X-Men's souls as anchors just like Jean Grey did when she repaired and tried to repair the Mkraan Crystal...
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/2292/rachel1mp0.th.jpg
"I need your strength..your Life Force...your Spirits to sustain me"
http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/8747/rachel2yp1.th.jpg

This is when Jean Grey tried to repair the Crystal before, she needs the Life Force of X-Men as-well...
http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/8205/kraan11km8.th.jpg
hmm...is this ALL coincidence?

Rachel also takes the Life Force of X-Men that are sleeping.
http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/8669/rachel4ml1.th.jpg

Storm finds a problem with Rachel's plan.
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/5208/rachel5fv3.th.jpg
"like MOTHER like daughter, eh Phoenix"...Rachel takes her Life Force anyway.

Rachel becomes the actual Phoenix Force
http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/7313/rachel6pj9.th.jpg
"the Primal Absolutes...CREATION and DESTRUCTION...are hers to command"

hmm...Sounds like the Phoenix Force's role in the Cosmic scheme.

Storm is trying to talk Rachel out of doing this
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/3563/rachel9cc7.th.jpg
"You helped my MOM Storm...You GAVE freely of yourself THEn, why not now"
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/7680/jeangrey1sf8.th.jpg
That was the incident Rachel was talking about.

Originally posted by kgkg
Which showed that even beyonder , and MM post rect....... were no match for even Celestials


Owen Reece in NOT a Cosmic Cube anymore.
http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/1980/mmisnotcubejj5.th.jpg
His power has reached a potential that seems to rival Pre-retcon Molecule Man.

Owen Reece has TWO personalities, a passive limited side that makes him:
http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/4217/mmlm0.th.jpg
"One of the MOST Powerful beings in the Universe"

Owen Reece's OTHER side is the unlimited potential personified that he has.
This other side is called Molecule Man...and this is what that looks like.

Owen Reece (POST-Molecule Man)...becomes Evil Molecule Man
http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/60/evilmmak8.th.jpg
http://img173.imageshack.us/img173/3382/evilmm2mu1.th.jpg

When insane/evil Molecule Man manifested out of Owen Reece, he went out to find POST-Retcon Beyonder to kill him out of revenge.

Insane/evil Molecule Man is something like Pre-retcon Molecule Man,
Multi-versal for sure...
since his separation from the Cosmic Cube, his power has reached levels that are unimaginable to Cosmic Cubes.

Post-retcon Molecule Man is a MONSTER!
http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/1747/mmdm6.th.jpg
Molecule Man actually extracts the essence of the Beyonder that's within Kosmos from Earth.

"power unimaginable...it's reaching through time and space"
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/7558/kosmos1rz5.th.jpg
"ripping the essence of that being from me"

"My Soul...Gone"
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/3924/kosmos2pj4.th.jpg
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8664/kosmos3hc6.th.jpg
"Is this death"?

Continues...


"Who dares summon the Beyonder from Oblivion?
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/5473/kosmos4bx9.th.jpg
"I dare...behold me...and despair"

"a conflict spanning PLANES of existence"
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/6189/kosmos05nl3.th.jpg
http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/9467/kosmos5cc6.th.jpghttp://img99.imageshack.us/img99/7718/kosmos6pp8.th.jpg
"a battle in which the laws of physics are tortured beyond recognition and eventually shattered"

Molecule Man: "there are Infinities Beyond your limited perception"

"from the Quantum to the Trans-Multiversal, Reality trembles as the forces unleashed reverberate through out creation"
http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/5499/beyonderandmmbattleagainbp6.th.jpghttp://img90.imageshack.us/img90/999/beyonderandmmbattlesagain2rv5.th.jpg
Realize how ALL Reality (in the Multi-verse) is being affected because of them, (both are POST-Retcon).

A WATCHER even goes blind in another Universe.

And the FlatLand Reality is completely Warped, from a Two Dimensional Universe to a Three Dimensional Universe.

Continues...


Now part of the retcon of the Beyonder, is that he was made an intrinsic part of the Multi-verse.

"to rend the Life Force of such a being as the Beyonder"
"Havoc unthinkable would be wrecked across Multiversal Cosmography"
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/1825/beyonderandmmbattleagain3mu7.th.jpg

At first, some of us thought this was nonsense since the Maker (current incarnation of the Beyonder) was seemingly dead during the Annihilation series.
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/4107/makernotdead00tl6.th.jpg

I began to turn pages and found this out: The Maker is NOT dead at all...

This is how the Maker ended up "Dead"...
http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/4551/makernotdeadej3.th.jpg
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/6416/makernotdead0bl8.th.jpg
Beyonder, (Maker), still imposing limitations like in his PRE era, takes on Mortal Form.


"The Mind is Dead...Do NOT kill the body"...This is in order to keep the essence of the Beyonder in prisoned within the Maker.
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/6118/makernotdead1wg7.th.jpg
Keep her body alive.

"a Living Prison"
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/5114/makernotdead3gm3.th.jpg
"The ONLY prison capable of containing the Beyonder...it's essence"

"had we killed the Maker Form? The prisoner goes free"
http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/9929/makernotdead2bn5.th.jpg
"We would of ENABLED the thing we'd sought to prevent (the destruction of the Universe that is)

In this Thanos series, the Maker could have imploded the Universe on a whim if it had not gone mad.
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/3595/maker3ho5.th.jpg

Continues...


Thanos knew of the Maker's potential
Thanos says his only recollection of the Beyonder or Kosmos is Unlimited power...he repeats this.
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/666/maker2bu1.th.jpg
This is Thanos after having possessed a Cosmic Cube that made him a Universe...after having the Infinity Gauntlet that made him "God"...after having THOU...which absorbed Living Tribunal.

The Maker was rendered unconcious because it took on mortal form and it was spiraling into madness.
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/1448/maker8sj8.th.jpg
They wanted to kill the Maker in it's vulnerable state...Gladiator asks, "Can you kill a god?"

Here Gladiator calls the Maker "the most powerful being in the known Universe"...
and again refers to it as a god...but it' decided to take on mortal form, which made it vulnerable.
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/1605/maker9rl6.th.jpg


Now back to Molecule Man...


Molecule Man's power, has FAR greater potential than any Cosmic Cube or even the Beyonder.
http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/8850/kubikexplainsph8.th.jpg

Kubik BEGS the Molecule Man not to kill the Beyonder, which would bring forth the END of Reality.
http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/7615/kubikexplains2jz4.th.jpg

Finally Molecule Man is calmed down and Owen is able to take control again, he reverts back to passive, limited Owen Reece
http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/7868/mm1yo1.th.jpg
"Ripping galaxies apart, bending the Laws of nature at Whim...That's easy stuff"


Hope that cleared that up

Originally posted by Mr Master
Continues...


Thanos knew of the Maker's potential
Thanos says his only recollection of the Beyonder or Kosmos is Unlimited power...he repeats this.
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/666/maker2bu1.th.jpg
This is Thanos after having possessed a Cosmic Cube that made him a Universe...after having the Infinity Gauntlet that made him "God"...after having THOU...which absorbed Living Tribunal.

The Maker was rendered unconcious because it took on mortal form and it was spiraling into madness.
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/1448/maker8sj8.th.jpg
They wanted to kill the Maker in it's vulnerable state...Gladiator asks, "Can you kill a god?"

Here Gladiator calls the Maker "the most powerful being in the known Universe"...
and again refers to it as a god...but it' decided to take on mortal form, which made it vulnerable.
http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/1605/maker9rl6.th.jpg


Now back to Molecule Man...


Molecule Man's power, has FAR greater potential than any Cosmic Cube or even the Beyonder.
http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/8850/kubikexplainsph8.th.jpg

Kubik BEGS the Molecule Man not to kill the Beyonder, which would bring forth the END of Reality.
http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/7615/kubikexplains2jz4.th.jpg

Finally Molecule Man is calmed down and Owen is able to take control again, he reverts back to passive, limited Owen Reece
http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/7868/mm1yo1.th.jpg
"Ripping galaxies apart, bending the Laws of nature at Whim...That's easy stuff"


Hope that cleared that up Thank you, for the maker bit!
And why was gladiator there again?

Originally posted by bigbran
Thank you, for the maker bit!
And why was gladiator there again?

He was a prisoner on that world's incarceration system.

Originally posted by Mr Master
He was a prisoner on that world's incarceration system. I know, but what did he do?

Originally posted by bigbran
I know, but what did he do?

To the Maker? Nothing.

I'm going to eat breakfast, I'll be back.

Originally posted by Mr Master
To the Maker? Nothing.

I'm going to eat breakfast, I'll be back. Ok.
Keep on owning.