Beyonder vs The Presence, Yahweh, TOAA.

Juntai

Originally posted by galan7777777
all i was debating in the 1st place was that beyonder isnt under toaa's control, thats it...i never said that beyonder could beat toaa
REALLY!?

Originally posted by Juntai
You believe Beyonder could throw down with Gods own hand and win with ease? That he could somehow muster more power than God can impart an aspect of himself to an extent that he could accomplish it EASILY?
And I'm not talking hypothetically here.

Originally posted by galan7777777
pre retcon yes! he wasnt part of the multiverse while spectre is........anything beyonder wished to do was done, such as killing death itself whom is one of the most powerful beings in the marvel universe, havent u seen the respect thread?

Originally posted by Juntai
I can't believe you just said that a character can muster up more power than God EASILY with exclamation points aftwards.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
... I think I speak for everyone when I say; you ****** ******* *** ****** ******* ****

1, Get it through your thick skull and into that little brain of yours.
-- Beyonder wasent a part of the Marvel Multi-verse.
Still he invaded MU Multiverse, and become all that was inside it, in other words God.
He had the power of the writers, which also makes him God.
But that's not quite it. He could do the same thing to DC Multi-verse acording to Pre-ret Beyonder logic.

And he would be able to take down TOAA, Presence and the Great Evil Beast, with just a smal portion of his power.
The Marvel Multiverse dint mean anything to Beyonder.
So woudlent DC.

Originally posted by galan7777777
a'men!

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by galan7777777
all i was debating in the 1st place was that beyonder isnt under toaa's control, thats it...i never said that beyonder could beat toaa

Still rubbish! roll eyes (sarcastic)

Beyonder is OF Marvel creation and therefore his very existence is determined by the will of Marvels supreme being.

You have been defeated, your cult leader has abandoned you. sad

Give it up!!! laughing out loud

Xplosive

Originally posted by galan7777777
all i was debating in the 1st place was that beyonder isnt under toaa's control, thats it...i never said that beyonder could beat toaa

Yes he is, TOAA lessened his power, made him only a powerful illusiont then.

Juntai

Originally posted by Xplosive
Yes he is, TOAA lessened his power, made him only a powerful illusiont then. lmao. TOAA retconned him.

Xplosive

Originally posted by Juntai
lmao. TOAA retconned him.

Yes, excatly. Beyonder is nothing to TOAA.

galan7777777

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Still rubbish! roll eyes (sarcastic)

Beyonder is OF Marvel creation and therefore his very existence is determined by the will of Marvels supreme being.

You have been defeated, your cult leader has abandoned you. sad

Give it up!!! laughing out loud

geeze.........its not even worth dragging this on anymore, u cant provide proof that toaa can defeat beyonder, and i cant provide proof that beyonder can beat toaa.......when all is said and done, does it really friggin matter? its a comic book lol

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Juntai
lmao. TOAA retconned him.

laughing out loud

Juntai

Originally posted by Juntai
I can't believe you just said that a character can muster up more power than God EASILY with exclamation points aftwards.

I cracked up reading my own reply in that other thread, lol.

Xplosive

Originally posted by galan7777777
geeze.........its not even worth dragging this on anymore, u cant provide proof that toaa can defeat beyonder, and i cant provide proof that beyonder can beat toaa.......when all is said and done, does it really friggin matter? its a comic book lol

I don't kwow what you don't understand, actully GS said it perfectly, Beyonder is of Marvel and his very existence is determined by the will of Marvels supreme being.

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by galan7777777
geeze.........its not even worth dragging this on anymore, u cant provide proof that toaa can defeat beyonder, and i cant provide proof that beyonder can beat toaa.......when all is said and done, does it really friggin matter? its a comic book lol

Should anyone have to prove that a supreme being is supreme? confused

If the supreme being is responsible for the creation, not only of Beyonder, but of all other things in Marvel then wouldnt it be common sense that he could take out Beyonder given that he is supreme? roll eyes (sarcastic)

galan7777777

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Should anyone have to prove that a supreme being is supreme? confused

again thats speculation and cant be used as proof

Juntai

Originally posted by galan7777777
again thats speculation and cant be used as proof Not so for the other two supreme beings in the fight.
Marvel's remains a mystery, but at the top of the chain, there almost certainly one creator who created all creation and that was not the beyonder..

darthgoober

Originally posted by galan7777777
again thats speculation and cant be used as proof
Yes but the recton isn't specualtion. It happened and everyone knows it.

Jesse7

Mr. M is not our cult leader!......he's just very l33t and uber >_> weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!

GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Jesse7
Mr. M is not our cult leader!......he's just very l33t and uber >_> weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!

laughing out loud

Mr Master

Ok

I logged off, and gave this thought.

I'm retracting my earlier statement.

Pre-Retcon Beyonder was equal or greater, to the TOAA.

or it doesn't make sense.

Beyonder was EVERYTHING outside the Multi-verse.

At the same time,

Beyonder was Millions of times greater than that Multi-verse he was outside of.

What's left?

Nothing.

Unless TOAA is so cheesy as to create a Multi-verse (which was Marvel from May 84' to Nov 86') and then Beyonder.

Thoughts?

Jesse7

Pre-Retcon Beyonder for the win, its just that one panel's narration about being billions or was it millions of times more powerful then all the multiverse combined, thats what convinces me he is above TOAA.

P.S. During the time Pre-Retcon Beyonder was made, the writtes at the time stated that the beyonder was the manifestation and representation of the writters of the comic/s, in that they were beyond anything in the comic and had absolute control of everything.

So going by that it really comes down to the writters who were writting at the time Vs. Stan Lee.

Mr Master

Originally posted by Jesse7
Pre-Retcon Beyonder for the win!

It makes sense right Jess?

Jesse7

I replied in my previous statement as to why it does make sense, I edited it a few seconds after so you might of not seen it, check it out though I think it does make sense.

Mr Master

Jesse7

P.S.S. in addition to Mr. M's previous statement that the Beyonder would indeed be greater then TOAA due to the fact that TOAA is the marvel multiverse, but the beyonder was millions of times more powerful then all the marvel multiverse combined (stated on panel by narration so its not speculation or hyperbole), so going by that it leads me to believe that the beyonder was indeed more powerful then TOAA. Or if you want to see it another way or as I see it the writters of marvel from 84 to 86 had more influence on the marvel comics then Stan Lee did, so going by that they were more powerful then Stan Lee was (TOAA), so PR Beyonder > TOAA.

So going by that it really comes down to the writters who were writting at the time Vs. Stan Lee, which as I explained above they were more powerful (more influence as shown since they made the beyonder and set his level) then Stan Lee.

Validus

Originally posted by Juntai
lmao. TOAA retconned him.
laughing out loud

Hilarious. Thread should have ended right there.

Jesse7

Well we are going by Pre-Retcon Beyonder, and I can argue that point of the retconning by this.

Post Retcon Beyonder (the writters) at the time was more powerful then TOAA (Stan Lee) because if he wasnt more powerful then he would not have been stated as being so by narration and panel and he wouldn't have been able to do all that he did.

Now to explain his retconning it can be seen like this, that over the years the writters influence on Marvel weakened (what actually happened is that he stopped working for marvel or was fired or retired, some thing along those lines) and thus the new writter went and retconned it, so in a way its sort of like the Post Retcon Beyonder left the marvel Multiverse (the writter left marvel) and all that was left was a empty shell of what he once was, so TOAA (or the new writter) came and manipulated that empty shell which was nothing compared to what he was before.

So in a way what Post Retcon beyonder is, is the original writters signature, and thus pre-retcon beyonder was indeed over all of TOAA and marvel (his influence on marvel proved this), he was only able to be defeated once he left Marvel (thus left the marvel multiverse), so of course his influence on the marvel multiverse is going to weaken since hes not there anymore.

I see post retcon beyonder as a avatar or a small fraction of Pre-Retcon Beyonder left behind.

nvrbeenwthagirl

IN the end, The freaking beyonder is still not more powerful than the presence as earlier stated. becuz no one in the damn marvel pantheon of writers can influence the DC staff to do thier bidding, or to change DC. PERIOD. The argument started becuz some idiot wanted to challenge the presence's might with that of the pre-retcon beyonder. HOW FOOLISH. Since DC has no editorial obligations to the beyonder or to marvel, then the beyonder would appear in the DCU and be totally under the control of the presence. WHo is the all watchful eye of the DC editorial staff and properties management. And the beyonder would never be let to defeat DC's Supreme being. There can only be one Supreme being. Every thing else is allowed to be becuz of the supreme's one will. The beyonder is nothing to the The one above all as he could decide to retcon the beyonder again, making it all the dream of a child in some comic, and He certainly is nothing to the presence, who probably watched the beyonder's antics on his big Television tube and said, wow, he reminds me of myxy. How cute.

Jesse7

The only flaw I find in your argument, is that we do not know if the presence is indeed the manifestations of the witters them selves, its never been stated or hinted at in any DC comic in the way it has been stated or hinted at in Marvel comics.

So it could be that the presence in DC isn't at the top of the food chain, that is why I say PR Beyonder is over the presence, because the presence has never been stated to be the writters.

nvrbeenwthagirl

Originally posted by Jesse7
The only flaw I find in your argument, is that we do not know if the presence is indeed the manifestations of the witters them selves, its never been stated or hinted at in any DC comic in the way it has been stated or hinted at in Marvel comics.

So it could be that the presence in DC isn't at the top of the food chain, that is why I say PR Beyonder is over the presence, because the presence has never been stated to be the writters.

It doesn't have to be stated. The writers give the presence it's authority. By the editorial command of DC, No one has ever been shown to be above the presence. It's a flow of logic. The presence is above every thing that has been shown to be as powerful as the beyonder. It's above the Spectre. Above the Source. Even above the ALE, which is as powerful as trillions of universes. Darksied said that but the tiniest piece of it's power was like having Mr. Mxy's power. And The presence is above all of that. The presence is so powerful, that he has armies of spectres to do his bidding should he wish. The Beyonder won't ever even get to challenge the might of the presence. The presence would have just created a minion even more powerful than before. I combined the might of Kronos, The anti monitor, and Parralax into one and snuffed out the little verse that the beyond was. And he certainly isn't all the powerful. He got Retconned while the presence remains the same. Infalible and unchanging.

Mr Master

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
The one above all as he could decide to retcon the beyonder again,

TOAA didn't retcon anyone.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
He certainly is nothing to the presence,

Beyonder was More powerful than the Presence or Equal to it.

Beyonder encompassed EVERYTHING Outside the Multi-verse (which was ALL of Marvel at the time)

AND, at the same time, Beyonder was Millions of times more powerful than the Multi-verse he was Outside of.

What's left?

Nothing.

So being the Supreme being of Marvel,

Beyonder was equal to the Presence.

charlemagne9746

I don't think the Beyonder would necessarily be more powerful than the TOAA, even though Beyonder is millions of times more than the multi-verse. Sure, Beyonder may oversee or occupy more territory than TOAA....but, how does that make him stronger?. I kind of look at it like European nobility. Beyonder may be a Duke, owning vast property. TOAA, compared to Beyonder, may just be a lowly viscount....the lowest rank of hereditary nobility. Sure, the Duke may own more property, control a larger army, and have more political influence....but, that is the end of the differences between the two. Physically, they both may be equals.

The U.S. President has more influence than the leader of the Sudan. The president may not have as much individual power as the Sudanese president...but, the U.S. president's decisions and influence are well above the Sudanese leader's.

I guess what I'm trying to say with those examples...lol..is that they would both probably stalemate in a physical fight. Beyonder may own more territory..and have more omniversal influence...but, it doesn't mean he would be physically superior to the TOAA.

Mr Master

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Even above the ALE, which is as powerful as trillions of universes. Darksied said that but the tiniest piece of it's power was like having Mr. Mxy's power.

"trillions of universes" huh...

"the tiniest piece of it's power was like having Mr. Mxy's power"

Really?

This is the Anti-Life Equation in it's most powerful form.

Dr Fate, Highfather, Orion, Darkseid and Etrigen trapped it, in it's own Dimension for EVER.
http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/6483/ale9vf0.th.jpg

"The threat of the ALE is forever ended"....."how"
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/2096/ale15tr7.th.jpg
the bridging Dimension between our Reality and it's has been eradicated"

So much for "trillions of universes"

Mr Master

Originally posted by charlemagne9746
I don't think the Beyonder would necessarily be more powerful than the TOAA, even though Beyonder is millions of times more than the multi-verse.

I guess what I'm trying to say with those examples...lol..is that they would both probably stalemate in a physical fight. Beyonder may own more territory..and have more omniversal influence...but, it doesn't mean he would be physically superior to the TOAA.

TOAA created the Multi-verse.

Beyonder is millions of times more powerful than that Multi-verse.

And Beyonder is the SUM of EVERYTHING OUTSIDE that Multi-verse.

Thoughts?

RUNMAN

The Beyonder during that time (Circa 84-86) was basically a card used by Marvel to portray in a grand manner what was at stake during the secret wars. I do believe however that the Beyonder was a manifestation of TOAA in graphic form...

Jesse7

I say TOAA is JAck Kirby and stan lee, since they were literaly drawn into the comic during that one FF arc/comic/s.

Secondly I think the key words as to why the Beyonder is greater then the presence is this

"And Beyonder is the SUM of EVERYTHING OUTSIDE that Multi-verse"

Not only is the Beyonder millions of times more powerful then all the marvel multiverse combined, but he is also the SUM of everything outside of Marvel, and whats outside of a comic? The world we are in right now, thus he is indeed greater then the presence, because I have never seen in any DC comic that the presence is a actual writter who is putting himself into the comic.

You can assume and speculate all you want but theirs no proof, unlike with the beyond their is proof, panel narration, and actual statements from the writter of Secret wars and the creator of the Beyonder "Jim Shooter."

Mr Master

Originally posted by RUNMAN
The Beyonder during that time (Circa 84-86) was basically a card used by Marvel to portray in a grand manner what was at stake during the secret wars. I do believe however that the Beyonder was a manifestation of TOAA in graphic form...

Possibly...

nvrbeenwthagirl

Originally posted by Jesse7
I say TOAA is JAck Kirby and stan lee, since they were literaly drawn into the comic during that one FF arc/comic/s.

Secondly I think the key words as to why the Beyonder is greater then the presence is this

"And Beyonder is the SUM of EVERYTHING OUTSIDE that Multi-verse"

Not only is the Beyonder millions of times more powerful then all the marvel multiverse combined, but he is also the SUM of everything outside of Marvel, and whats outside of a comic? The world we are in right now, thus he is indeed greater then the presence, because I have never seen in any DC comic that the presence is a actual writter who is putting himself into the comic.

You can assume and speculate all you want but theirs no proof, unlike with the beyond their is proof, panel narration, and actual statements from the writter of Secret wars and the creator of the Beyonder "Jim Shooter."

Ur logic is still silly. He was stated as being the sum of everything outside of the multi verse by whom? On whose authority does he get this power? now does this authority thatgave him his power, have any power WHAT SO EVER over the presence? NOT! You have used up ur third life line.

Mr Master

Originally posted by Jesse7
I say TOAA is JAck Kirby and stan lee, since they were literaly drawn into the comic during that one FF arc/comic/s.

"God" is without doubt the Artist, Jack Kirby the premiere Artist of Marvel, and it resembles him too.

He get's a phone call, they give him ideas..then "God" (the Artist) says, "I'll draw up some paper and ink and get right to it."..something to that effect.

That heavily suggest a Writer was on the phone.

Stan Lee was the premiere Writer of Marvel and he created the FF no less where the whole event took place.

Originally posted by Jesse7
Not only is the Beyonder millions of times more powerful then all the marvel multiverse combined, but he is also the SUM of everything outside of Marvel, and whats outside of a comic? The world we are in right now, thus he is indeed greater then the presence, because I have never seen in any DC comic that the presence is a actual writter who is putting himself into the comic.

smokin'

charlemagne9746

"Sum of everything outside TOAA's multiverse"....now, what does that really mean? I think it was mentioned before that the Beyonder can enter a new reality..and displace that reality's Supreme Being. Well, over countless eons in the past.....Beyonder, at one time, was not the Sum of Everything outside TOAA's multiverse. He had to gain that position. "Sum of Everything" would also imply that Beyonder was already in control of the DC universe as well.....since, TOAA's multiverse, it seems, is all that is left.

In eons past, Beyonder and TOAA may have been pretty much identical in terms of power held.....and influence. Beyonder just overstepped his bounds and became an omniversal conqueror.

That is my argument....Beyonder may not be any more powerful than the TOAA....we may never know. If Beyonder displaced other Supreme Beings, then..apparently he was more powerful than they. However, that doesn't mean Beyonder is more powerful than the TOAA....again, Beyonder just owns more property...lol.

The Roman Empire forged one of the largest empires in history. Yet, their empire crumbled....and barbarians invaded and occupied the western parts of the empire. Sure, Rome was not as powerful as she once was at that time......but, Rome still had most of it's influence...and all of its territory....yet smaller tribes like the Huns put Rome on her knees.

Power and influence do not necessarily mean everything. As powerful as you are....there is always a superior or equal...at least I find that to be the case in comic books. It's just my opinion that Beyonder and TOAA would stalemate if anything. lol...then again...maybe not...omnipotence has degrees in Marvel comics.....how silly is that?....so, Beyonder may well be more powerful.....theoretically...that makes no sense.....i have to look at things naturally....in this forum at least....omnipotence = omnipotence....stalemate.

Concerning the earlier argument about the Beyonder being a writer...or something along those lines...well, the TOAA is supposed to be also. Remember...some force was powerful enough to ret-con the Beyonder....ret-con = defeat..lol....could it have been TOAA(ret-con decision maker(s) at Marvel. In this sense, TOAA>>>>Beyonder

nvrbeenwthagirl

THe Editorial staffs at both companies are infinitely more powerful than the writers. The Editor in chief of both companies run the show. No writer can ever match that power. In the end, if the beyonder was a writer, he was a small thing compared to the larger frame work of marvel. Stand lee is still at marvel. Rich as hell and doing absolutely nothing for it. Where is this writer who lost control of his own creation, the beyonder?

Mr Master

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Ur logic is still silly. He was stated as being the sum of everything outside of the multi verse by whom?

Molecule Man (the second most powerful being in the Multi-verse at the time.
"here we are, OUTSIDE Earth's Universe and ALL the INFINITE Adjacent Dimensions which make up the Multiverse...BEYOND ALL KNOWN Existence"
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/6606/beyondspacetime2pq7.th.jpg
"In other words, the Beyond Realm"

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
On whose authority does he get this power?

No one gave him his power, he always was.
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/5039/beyondercontrolseverythingpn3.th.jpg
Even Bacteria bows down to the Beyonder.

nvrbeenwthagirl

Originally posted by Mr Master
Molecule Man (the second most powerful being in the Multi-verse at the time.
"here we are, OUTSIDE Earth's Universe and ALL the INFINITE Adjacent Dimensions which make up the Multiverse...BEYOND ALL KNOWN Existence"
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/6606/beyondspacetime2pq7.th.jpg
"In other words, the Beyond Realm"

No one gave him his power, he always was.
http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/5039/beyondercontrolseverythingpn3.th.jpg
Even Bacteria bows down to the Beyonder.

it's still on a DAMN marvel comic PAGE. there for this beyond space is still in the wrealm of THE MU. It can be implied all day that the beyonder is beyond DC. But it can never be so until he shows up on panel on DC paper and kicks some ass. He gets his power from the one who created him. the writer. Period. This argument has been one. on both counts. THe beyonder is no more powerful than mxy. He certainly isn't messing with DC's presence. The presence hasn't even been retconned. The beyonder isnt' infallible. He got the air let out of his balloon by a truly higher power. The editorial staff.

charlemagne9746

All these are just circular arguments however...lol. You can basically prove whatever theory you want to prove when you say the Beyonder or TOAA is part of the writing staff. With this theory I can say that Pre-Retcon Marvel Brother is more powerful than the Beyonder. The Brother is the embodiment of Marvel Comics itself. Without Marvel, the company, no one would have a job...no writers, no editors, no body. In that sense, the Marvel Brother would be greater than any being in Marvel. Then you can say that the Beyonder is the sum of everthing outside TOAA's multiverse.....that is beyond the scope of the Marvel Brother....so, in this sense..it can be said that the Beyonder is more powerful. If the TOAA is the editor(s) in chief...then they can retcon Beyonder....making TOAA above the Beyonder. But, if the Beyonder is the sum of everything outside TOAA's multiverse....then Beyonder is more powerful.......you see how circular these arguments are. I don't think you can argue one above the other. Ret conning Beyonder and the Marvel Brother was the best possible solution to clear up the Marvel heirarchy

darthgoober

Stan Lee (TOAA) fires the writer(Beyonder). TOAA wins.

Jesse7

Except the brother argument wouldnt work, because it was later explained that they were not all powerful, but rather they were forever fighting and their rank is shown when LT holds each on a different hand and orders them to each watch over a seperate univere, point being they are below LT, and LT is below the Beyonder.

This is Pre-Retconned Beyonder, their is no marvel comic character beyond the beyonder.

darthgoober

Originally posted by Jesse7
Except the brother argument wouldnt work, because they were retconned and LT was seeing holding each on in a different hand.

This is Pre-Retconned Beyonder, their is no marvel comic character beyond the beyonder.
Wait, why are we accepting Pre-recton Beyonder and Dismissing Pre-recton brother?

Jesse7

Well even if we accept pre retconned brother, it wouldnt really matter, I edited my previous post to explain why.

They weren't exactly retconned, it was more of that it was never cannon because both DC and marvel didnt agree on it and both had different views on it, for some thing to be cannon in a cross over both companies have to include it in their comic contiuity and acknowledge that it happened equaly on both sides, which is not the case here.

darthgoober

Originally posted by Jesse7
Well even if we accept pre retconned brother, it wouldnt really matter, I edited my previous post to explain why.

They weren't exactly retconned, it was more of that it was never cannon because both DC and marvel didnt agree on it and both had different views on it, for some thing to be cannon in a cross over both companies have to include it in their comic contiuity and acknowledge that it happened equaly on both sides, which is not the case here.
You don't realize that you just killed your argument. Because if DC didn't acnowledge the Beyonder's power it's not cannon.

charlemagne9746

well, beyonder was retconned to be less powerful also....that's why I used the Marvel Brother. Beyonder may be ouside the realm of the Marvel multiverse...but he originated in Marvel Comics...and the Brother is the Sum of Marvel Comics....so, in that sense....the Brother is above the Beyonder.

I realize all of this is theory and just speculation on my part. In the actual comic book....if you just take it and nothing else...then, yes....it would appear that the Beyonder is the most powerful. However, the writers have given clues as to the identities of the TOAA/God....which leaves the readers free to speculate. Using logic..outside of the comic book....then the Beyonder can not be more powerful. Beyonder is only more powerful from a comic book only point of view. Anyway, this forum does away with the PIS or CIS of the comic books....and the forum allows for more speculation...lol...so, these theories can be relevant here.

Jesse7

Originally posted by darthgoober
You don't realize that you just killed your argument. Because if DC didn't acnowledge the Beyonder's power it's not cannon.

I didn't kill my argument in anyway, The beyonder was acknowledge by Marvel thats all that matters here, why? Because the Beyonder was never in a cross over and never had anything to do with DC.

Why does DC's word matter for the brothers? Because the brothers was a cross over with DC and since it was a cross over both companies need to agree as I explained earlier.

darthgoober

Originally posted by Jesse7
I didn't kill my argument in anyway, The beyonder was acknowledge by Marvel thats all that matters here, why? Because the Beyonder was never in a cross over and never had anything to do with DC.

Why does DC's word matter for the brothers? Because the brothers was a cross over with DC and since it was a cross over both companies need to agree as I explained earlier.
Yes, but the Beyonder's power was supposed to cross company boundaries. So for that to be the case, DC would have to acknowledge that level of power for it to be cannon.

Jesse7

You don't get it do you...anyway I g2g

nvrbeenwthagirl

Originally posted by Jesse7
I didn't kill my argument in anyway, The beyonder was acknowledge by Marvel thats all that matters here, why? Because the Beyonder was never in a cross over and never had anything to do with DC.

Why does DC's word matter for the brothers? Because the brothers was a cross over with DC and since it was a cross over both companies need to agree as I explained earlier.

So when has the beyonder been shown to be above DC's Presence? NEVER! He can't even keep his power. The presence is forever the same while the beyonder is subject to the whims of writers.

darthgoober

Originally posted by Jesse7
You don't get it do you...anyway I g2g
No I don't, because it's wrong and doesn't make any sense. If Marvel had the power to say that the Beyonder was above everybody in every company, than Marvel's supreame being had power over everyone else also. So how could the Beyonder beat him?

charlemagne9746

i don't think the Beyonder is over the Presence. However, Marvel did make it seem that way. Marvel stated that the Beyonder was the Sum of everything outside the Marvel multi-verse. Everything would include the DC universe. I agree with the person who said that Marvel would've likely been sued if Beyonder wasn't ret-conned.

charlemagne9746

In sum..if you're going solely by the dialogue inside Marvel comics....then, yeah...Beyonder is atleast equal to TOAA in terms of omnipotence...and that is as far as I'll concede on this matter. Sure, the Beyonder occupied much more territory than the TOAA...but, that alone doesn't convince me that the Beyonder>>>>TOAA in feat displaying power. On panel, yes....in theory...no.

Mindship

H'mm.
TOAA: "The One Above All"...right?
Is this Marvel God? Because implied in the very title is separation: TOAA is "above all," but he isn't all; he can't be, if he's separate from what he's above.
In other words: wouldn't the "true Marvel God" be Both all and above all? Otherwise there is theoretically a Whole greater than TOAA, an entity comprised of All + The One Above it.

jerry

darthgoober

charlemagne9746

Originally posted by Mindship
H'mm.
TOAA: "The One Above All"...right?
Is this Marvel God? Because implied in the very title is separation: TOAA is "above all," but he isn't all; he can't be, if he's separate from what he's above.
In other words: wouldn't the "true Marvel God" be Both all and above all? Otherwise there is theoretically a Whole greater than TOAA, an entity comprised of All + The One Above it.

jerry

lol..yes, that is true. It is rather confusing. However, others will counter your argument by saying that....The One Above All....is only above ALL things in HIS multiverse....meaning that his omnipotence is only limited to the multiverse that he rules over. In essence, they are correct when they say that. TOAA is not absolute power.....only in Marvel comics is he absolute power. IN DC...the Presence is absolute omnipotent power.

When you throw in the Beyonder...that is where things get even more confusing. Many people believe..that the Beyonder is superior to TOAA...and there is on panel evidence to support this claim. However, in theory...as i've pointed out earlier....TOAA has to be superior to the Beyonder. Anyway...i'm not gonna go through all that again...lol

Maybe, out there somewhere, exists an omniversal...TOAA...who is truly infallible and omnipotent over any reality in the world of fiction...DC/Marvel/Anime/Star Trek/etc....however, you would have to have collaboration among all parties...and that will never happen...and if it did...it certainly wouldn't be canon. Some super rich guru would have to buy out all of those franchises and put them together...lol. But, in the long run..that would not be as much fun for comic fans....as far as debating goes.

darthgoober

Originally posted by charlemagne9746
lol..yes, that is true. It is rather confusing. However, others will counter your argument by saying that....The One Above All....is only above ALL things in HIS multiverse....meaning that his omnipotence is only limited to the multiverse that he rules over. In essence, they are correct when they say that. TOAA is not absolute power.....only in Marvel comics is he absolute power. IN DC...the Presence is absolute omnipotent power.

When you throw in the Beyonder...that is where things get even more confusing. Many people believe..that the Beyonder is superior to TOAA...and there is on panel evidence to support this claim. However, in theory...as i've pointed out earlier....TOAA has to be superior to the Beyonder. Anyway...i'm not gonna go through all that again...lol

Maybe, out there somewhere, exists an omniversal...TOAA...who is truly infallible and omnipotent over any reality in the world of fiction...DC/Marvel/Anime/Star Trek/etc....however, you would have to have collaboration among all parties...and that will never happen...and if it did...it certainly wouldn't be canon. Some super rich guru would have to buy out all of those franchises and put them together...lol. But, in the long run..that would not be as much fun for comic fans....as far as debating goes.

Hey, that's a kick ass idea! Now I know what I'm gonna do if I ever get rich. laughing

charlemagne9746

lol...Darthgoober becomes the omniversal TOAA....uh oh...what have i unleashed..lol

darthgoober

Originally posted by charlemagne9746
lol...Darthgoober becomes the omniversal TOAA....uh oh...what have i unleashed..lol
ALL WILL BOW DOWN BEFORE ME!!!!!! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA!

Juntai

Originally posted by charlemagne9746
lol..yes, that is true. It is rather confusing. However, others will counter your argument by saying that....The One Above All....is only above ALL things in HIS multiverse....meaning that his omnipotence is only limited to the multiverse that he rules over. In essence, they are correct when they say that. TOAA is not absolute power.....only in Marvel comics is he absolute power. IN DC...the Presence is absolute omnipotent power.

When you throw in the Beyonder...that is where things get even more confusing. Many people believe..that the Beyonder is superior to TOAA...and there is on panel evidence to support this claim. However, in theory...as i've pointed out earlier....TOAA has to be superior to the Beyonder. Anyway...i'm not gonna go through all that again...lol

Maybe, out there somewhere, exists an omniversal...TOAA...who is truly infallible and omnipotent over any reality in the world of fiction...DC/Marvel/Anime/Star Trek/etc....however, you would have to have collaboration among all parties...and that will never happen...and if it did...it certainly wouldn't be canon. Some super rich guru would have to buy out all of those franchises and put them together...lol. But, in the long run..that would not be as much fun for comic fans....as far as debating goes. I specified specifically that it by "TOAA" I meant, Marvel's supreme being, not just the creator of multiverse-standard.

darthgoober

I notice that everyone keeps making reference to the narrator refering to the Beyonder being more powerful than a million multiverses combined, and just taking that statement at face value. Why, I remember Black Bolt be refered to as be second strongest behind the Hulk, and everyone knows that's BS. That's just the way comics are, you can't just believe everything that's thrown out there.

bigbran

Originally posted by darthgoober
I notice that everyone keeps making reference to the narrator refering to the Beyonder being more powerful than a million multiverses combined, and just taking that statement at face value. Why, I remember Black Bolt be refered to as be second strongest behind the Hulk, and everyone knows that's BS. That's just the way comics are, you can't just believe everything that's thrown out there. Black bolt was the second strongest in that area.

darthgoober

Originally posted by bigbran
Black bolt was the second strongest in that area.
I'm sorry, Black bolt is bad ass, but until I see a feat of physical strength, that puts him in front of Juggernaut, I'm not buying it.

bigbran

Originally posted by darthgoober
I'm sorry, Black bolt is bad ass, but until I see a feat of physical strength, that puts him in front of Juggernaut, I'm not buying it. Like where they were, not out of the whole universe, just in the area where bb and hulk were fighting.

darthgoober

Originally posted by bigbran
Like where they were, not out of the whole universe, just in the area where bb and hulk were fighting.
Wait, I'm pretty sure that it said Black Bolt was an EXTREMELY close second. Now in my mind, that means that Black Bolt was right there on Hulks level of strength. If I'm wrong please forgive the misinterpretation.

bigbran

Originally posted by darthgoober
Wait, I'm pretty sure that it said Black Bolt was an EXTREMELY close second. Now in my mind, that means that Black Bolt was right there on Hulks level of strength. If I'm wrong please forgive the misinterpretation. Nope your not wrong. It said that, but the thing is, that bb has never shown anything that shows other wise. He can fight thor, hulk, glads, in h2h.

nvrbeenwthagirl

So the conclusion is that the beyonder cannot beat the presence or TOAA

darthgoober

Originally posted by bigbran
Nope your not wrong. It said that, but the thing is, that bb has never shown anything that shows other wise. He can fight thor, hulk, glads, in h2h.
OK good, I read that a story a while ago, and was worried that I might have remembered wrong. But anyway, I'm not denying that Black Bolt can amp himself up to 100+ strength class and take on everyone you mentioned. But even you have to admit that his punches don't seem to have quite as much power behind them as the people you mentioned. To my knowledge, he's never done anything like sent anybody into orbit or through multiple buildings with a single punch(except maybe his Master Blow). He just dodges and wears them down gradually. I'm not denying that He can become incredibly strong, I just think the narrator was exaggerating about how strong he really was. By the same token, abstracts are often referred to as being omnipotent by the narrator, but if they were really omnipotent then they couldn't be beaten by the Beyonder. I mean, how can someone be MORE omnipotent than someone else. Writers exaggerate sometimes for the sake of the story, so you shouldn't take everything in a narrator's box as the ultimate truth.

charlemagne9746

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
So the conclusion is that the beyonder cannot beat the presence or TOAA

Well, it may be inconclusive. I've been thinking more on the subject. Let me start off with an example. In my own house...I am an omnipotent being. I arrange my living space the way I want it. If I don't like something..such as a picture...I can toss it out on a whim. The object is powerless against my judgment and actions. The picture can do nothing in retaliation. Everything in my house is in the order that I deem necessary. So, again...in regards to my own house..and the objects I possess...I am omnipotent..the TOAA of my own house. However, that only applies to my house. Unfortunately, when I go to work...my omnipotence ends. I am subject to a boss who can fire me in an instant if he deems it necessary. So, even though I am omnipotent in a sense...in my own household...it doesn't mean that I am completely omnipotent in every facet of my life.

The TOAA is omnipotent in the multiverse. Everything is subject to him...and he has the power to arrange or destroy anything that he sees fit. Nothing in the Marvel multiverse would be capable of resisting his will.

The Beyonder, on the other hand, exists in a reality outside the multiverse that TOAA controls. TOAA can not enforce his will upon something that is not his or something that is not under his power to control. Does this mean that the Beyonder is indeed more powerful than the TOAA....no, it doesn't mean that at all.

For instance....my brother is much richer than I am. He owns stuff that I've only dreamed of owning. I have no power to control what he buys or does not buy with his money. On the other hand...he does not have the power to control any facet of my life either. My brother may have a greater aura about him...and a bigger reputation than I do...but, that does not make him omnipotent over me. Do you see what I'm saying? I believe the TOAA and the Beyonder would be powerless against each other. It doesn't matter that the Beyonder may be the Sum of everything else....that does not prove his omnipotence is on a higher degree than the TOAA's.

My final point is that omnipotence can be lost. I can easily lose my house and my possessions if someone comes in and takes it from me by force. If I am defeated, then I am no longer the master of my own possessions, someone else is. In the case with the TOAA and the Beyonder....the only way to know who is more powerful is to have them actually battle....case closed. On panel feats mean nothing when you have two supreme beings like that. If the Beyonder can subdue TOAA by himself, then the Beyonder would indeed be more powerful....but, we will never see that battle now. The point is...there are degrees of omnipotence. LIke i said..my omnipotence does not carry on past my own house....that is the limit of my omnipotence. The limit of TOAA's omnipotence is the Marvel multiverse. Beyonder's omnipotence is limited to everything else. Only be force can omnipotence be relinquished. We never saw the TOAA and the Beyonder battle...so, we'll never truly know who's omnipotence is greater...or on a higher degree.

I'll get back to this later...i need sleep..lol.....but for now....TOAA vs Beyonder is inconclusive as is. Thanos even with the Heart is not truly omnipotent..he was still under the control of the TOAA. Can the HOTU hurt the Beyonder...maybe..maybe not....we'll never know...it can only be speculated.

Lord Urizen

IF TOAA is the artist that created Marvel's fiction, then he can beat Beyonder, because even if Beyonder is beyond Marvel's order, he is not beyond Marvel's fiction.

However, the Presence and Yaheweh are NOT the artists that created DC, they are in fact characters who BELONG to the DC fiction.

Therefore, Classic Beyonder would most likely kick both thier sorry asses. yes

charlemagne9746

One more point before I retire for the night..lol It was stated that the Beyonder was the Sum of everything else outside the Marvel multiverse...or in essence..that is what it stated....i have not actually read the comic where that statement is from. That statement is grounds for a lawsuit if it is not worded correctly...and it could be the reason the Beyonder was ret-conned. The statement would imply that the Beyonder was beyond anything in DC or any other comic line. Since Marvel has no jurisdiction over DC...such a statement can not be made.

For example...the Pizza Hut motto is.."The best pizza under ONE roof" ONE is the key word in that motto...that word is what keeps that motto LEGAL....Pizza Hut can not say...."The best pizza under ANY roof".....that would imply that their pizza was better than any other pizza chain. Of course Pizza Hut believes that...but, they can not legally advertise like that. I used to work for pizza hut years ago....so, i understand that semantics of advertising...lol

For legal reasons...Marvel can not state that the Beyonder was the essence of everything else outside the Marvel multiverse.

These are just my conclusions....I am not as well versed in comics as Mr. Master and probably many others on this site...but i do read them occasionally and I do a lot of research on characters..or I try to anyway when I have time. So, if I'm wrong.....feel free to correct me...as I'm sure many of you will...lol.

charlemagne9746

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
IF TOAA is the artist that created Marvel's fiction, then he can beat Beyonder, because even if Beyonder is beyond Marvel's order, he is not beyond Marvel's fiction.

However, the Presence and Yaheweh are NOT the artists that created DC, they are in fact characters who BELONG to the DC fiction.

Therefore, Classic Beyonder would most likely kick both thier sorry asses. yes

DC does not allude to their writers being gods like Marvel has done. However, what could the Presence be? The Presence of a WRITER perhaps. There is some Presence in DC that above every thing else....so, why can't the Presence be the writer.....all we can do is speculate anyway..lol.

Anyway, the Presence is the Supreme Being of DC. The only way to know who would win is to see TOAA vs Presence.....but, you will never see that in a crossover...and have it become canon. In a crossover...it would only be a stalemate. Neither company would allow their supreme being to lose to the competitor.

darthgoober

Look, TOAA is omniscient. TOAA orchestrated the entire HOTU event because he knew exactly how Thanos would respond. That shows that he has absolute knowledge of the future otherwise he never would have allowed Thanos to obtain that level of power. That level of omniscience means that he knew the Beyonder was going to cross over into his domain, and yet he did nothing to stop him. And because it was within his domain, he could have stopped him just like you could bar your front door if you didn't want your brother in your house in the first place. He allowed the Beyonder to cross over because he knew that the Beyonder wasn't a threat to him.

The Beyonder on the other hand, is not omniscient. He may know everything from the present and the past and a limited ability to sense the future, but he showed that he does not have ABSOLUTE knowledge of the future when he destroyed Multi-Death. If he had absolute knowledge, he never would have done that in the first place and then had to correct his mistake. He also showed a lack of omniscience when he was defeated by Dr. Doom. And before anyone yells PIS, if it was the case, it would only demonstrate the fact the he is subject to the laws that are laid down by TOAA. If he was really immune to the laws of TOAA, PIS would never be an issue, because he wouldn't have been subject to the plot of the story.

The omniscience demonstrated by TOAA to is a feat superior to anything that the beyonder accomplished(we all agree that TOAA could have destroyed MULTI-DEATH, right). Levels of power on the forum are determined for the most part by the feats shown by the combatants. Which all adds up to TOAA FTW.

Creshosk

Originally posted by galan7777777
geeze.........its not even worth dragging this on anymore, u cant provide proof that toaa can defeat beyonder, and i cant provide proof that beyonder can beat toaa.......when all is said and done, does it really friggin matter? its a comic book lol The proof is a retcon happened.

TOAA fights dirty.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen

Therefore, Classic Beyonder would most likely kick both thier sorry asses. yes

Only if Toaa got permission from the owners of those characters.

lft4ded

Originally posted by Mr Master
Beyonder was Millions of times greater than that Multi-verse he was outside of.

What's left?

Nothing.

You've just defined the limits of the Beyonder by measuring him as millions of time greater than the mulitverse. Therefore he is below The One Above All who is as his name states.

If I have a snow globe, and within the snow globe I place Metroplex and tell the Transformers that Metroplex is the extent of their universe, with multiple levels of course, and then place enough meltedHe-Man in the snow globe separate from Metroplex to fill it up, He-Man is the Beyonder. To melted He-Man, he is the everything outside of Metroplex. But he's still not beyond the one who holds the snow globe.

The One Above All isn't just a name, it is what it is. Beyonder is merely beyond the multiverse. TOAA is truly omnipresent meaning that the multi-verse and what's outside the multi-verse is a part of him. He is above all limits, logic, chaos. Like a dominant personality in an schizo.

Originally posted by Jesse7
P.S. During the time Pre-Retcon Beyonder was made, the writtes at the time stated that the beyonder was the manifestation and representation of the writters of the comic/s, in that they were beyond anything in the comic and had absolute control of everything.

So going by that it really comes down to the writters who were writting at the time Vs. Stan Lee.

This makes no sense as everything on the page is a manifestation of the writers/artists. Just like the 9/11 issue of Avenger's. The Marvel heroes didn't really care when Juggernaut tore down a Tower while fighting X-Force + Spider-Man. But when the event occurred in our world, it seriously affected the writers/artist and it was represented in that issue.

Marvel is a shared universe, if the investor's all choose to pull out, then Marvel would die, let's see the Beyonder come into the board room to stop that. They are beyond even the writer's but for all intents and purpose's the current editorial staff, etc are TOAA. If they choose to attribute a particular face to their presence then so-be-it, and they can change it whenever they want to.

nvrbeenwthagirl and darthgoober have the right of it.

darthgoober

Originally posted by lft4ded
You've just defined the limits of the Beyonder by measuring him as millions of time greater than the mulitverse. Therefore he is below The One Above All who is as his name states.

If I have a snow globe, and within the snow globe I place Metroplex and tell the Transformers that Metroplex is the extent of their universe, with multiple levels of course, and then place enough meltedHe-Man in the snow globe separate from Metroplex to fill it up, He-Man is the Beyonder. To melted He-Man, he is the everything outside of Metroplex. But he's still not beyond the one who holds the snow globe.

The One Above All isn't just a name, it is what it is. Beyonder is merely beyond the multiverse. TOAA is truly omnipresent meaning that the multi-verse and what's outside the multi-verse is a part of him. He is above all limits, logic, chaos. Like a dominant personality in an schizo.

This makes no sense as everything on the page is a manifestation of the writers/artists. Just like the 9/11 issue of Avenger's. The Marvel heroes didn't really care when Juggernaut tore down a Tower while fighting X-Force + Spider-Man. But when the event occurred in our world, it seriously affected the writers/artist and it was represented in that issue.

Marvel is a shared universe, if the investor's all choose to pull out, then Marvel would die, let's see the Beyonder come into the board room to stop that. They are beyond even the writer's but for all intents and purpose's the current editorial staff, etc are TOAA. If they choose to attribute a particular face to their presence then so-be-it, and they can change it whenever they want to.

nvrbeenwthagirl and darthgoober have the right of it.
Thank you.

Thanos_THOTU

Originally posted by Jesse7
Pre-Retcon Beyonder for the win, its just that one panel's narration about being billions or was it millions of times more powerful then all the multiverse combined, thats what convinces me he is above TOAA.

P.S. During the time Pre-Retcon Beyonder was made, the writtes at the time stated that the beyonder was the manifestation and representation of the writters of the comic/s, in that they were beyond anything in the comic and had absolute control of everything.

So going by that it really comes down to the writters who were writting at the time Vs. Stan Lee.

There are ways to meassure the wrtiers/TOAA's power, and also a way to messure Yahweh (from Vertigo)'s power.

TOAA is the name invented by Jim Starlin (First mentioned in Infinity Gauntlet series) TOAA is supose to God represent or the wrtiers of the comic. (Jack Kirby's version that god is the "creator" of the series)
If the author choses to give all his power to a comic character, than he would equal the writer in terms of power right?
Thanos wih the Heart was God, stated over and over again.
He used it to it max potential and destroyed the Multi-verse.
However the Mega-verse survived, as you could see Death survived.

Beyonder had the power ro destroy the Multi-verse and every character in the comics back then agreed. He also killed Death, and you can only kill her if you erease her from the Mega-verse.

Beyonder >> Thanos w/ THOTU = God = Writer = Jim Starlin

Now the Writer cannot be stoped huh?
What about the Great Evil Beast, that swamp thing sure shut it up.
So the writer (Yahweh) needed help to defeated himself?
From feats and statements, Beyonder have this one in the Bag.
Beyonder >> TGEB = Yahweh = Writier

TOAA, Presence and Yahweh maybe writers.
But Beyonder was Stan Lee.

Thanos_THOTU

Here is other members that agree with me:

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Classic Beyonder would take this ALONE:

1)Possess the power of the comic book writers- Stan Lee himself said that Classic Beyonder was supposed to represent the power the Writers had over the characters, the universes, the reality itself,etc. The ability to create and erase or change the "story" to any way he wants it to be.

2)Has millions of times the power of the Marvel Multiverse- Does this need any further explanations?

3)Has Infinite Reality Warping Ability- more flexible than IG or even HOTU.

4)Has the Absolute Ability to VIOLATE multiverses- thier laws, thier concepts, thier order....means NOTHING to Classic Beyonder. The Presence, TOAA.....there laws and power means nothing to Classic Beyonder, who is the embodyment of Absolute Power itself.

Guys be realistic. The Classic Beyonder could turn The Great Evil Beast into toilet paper if he wanted to. WHY? Because the Great Evil Beast is a factual entity that belongs to DC/Vertigo.....it is a SERIOUS construct of that entire existance.

Classic Beyonder exceeds existance, he exceeds seriousness. HE is like a child with the power to rewrite the comic book however the hell he wanted to. He can VIOLATE DC/Vertigo's existance the way he did Marvel's.

Classic Beyonder is the ultamate in uber cheesy powerful characters, and he is basically unbeatable...unless he WANTED to be beaten. He'd definately destroy, erase, duplicate, shit on, copy, eat, swallow, WHATEVER he wanted to do...to the GEB....and with Thanos with HOTU?????That's just overkill !

lft4ded

Pre-retcon Beyonder had limits to his power. When Phoenix was 'returning' his power to him, he proved unable to turn away, narration, or to force her to stop. He said that he was unsure he could re-create Death before Death was destroyed. How could he be unsure of his ability to do this unless he's less than omnipotent.

When speaking with the X-Men he spoke of unknowns and his fear of facing it. He spoke of envy and was unsure if he and the X-Men would meet again. Beyonder, by his admission, isn't omniscient. He has failings such as fear and envy. Beyonder isn't above all.

The Beyonder is a pawn of the writer's to make a good story.

darthgoober

You know the more I think about it, the more I realize just how ridiculus this battle is(no offense to Juntai, this probably needed to be covered). TOAA has INFINITE power in Marvel. Not the illusion of infinite power as granted by the infinity gems, but actual infinite power. Now the funny thing about infinity is that it's a constant. You cannot subtract from it, divide it, add to it, or multiply it because the answer is always the same. The Beyonder on the other hand does not have infinite power at his desposal. This is proven when he destroys Multi-Death. Right before he does it he tells Dave "Alot of my power is in that cup", now, if he had infinite power at his desposal, he would have said "not even a fraction of my power is in that cup", because a fraction of infinity is infinity. His power was limited by the writters and company, who is TOAA.

Creshosk

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Here is other members that agree with me: Yay for ad populem...

Oh wait that means you just invalidated your claim.

Drats! You foiled Thanos_THOTU again Logic. Curse you Logic!

---

Whats funny , trully funny is that TOAA is literally the one who calls the shots in Marvel(the company not the multiverse). They only publish what they want to happen.

But I'll be damned impressed when a character is capable of killing their creator... or anyone else in their creator's world...

Paranoia Agent much?

lft4ded

Oops, sorry darthgoober. smile

darthgoober

Originally posted by lft4ded
Oops, sorry darthgoober. smile

Hey, it's all cool man. It's nice to know that someone is on the same page as me. cool

Thanos_THOTU

He is the One Above All, which is not a name, but a title.
Because he is the only being above the Living Tribunal.
You are talking about a character that isn't Marvel anymmore.
The "Pre-retcon Beyonder" is not Marvel anymore.
Thats the whole point with reconned characters.

No it would be something like this.
Your snowglobe is the Multi-verse. Beyonder are created outside the Globe, he enter the Glode destroys it and leave... So are you God of anyhing anymore? He destroyed your Multi-verse (which the Beyonder was capable of) are you still a God, even though you have nothing to be "God" over?

What are you saying merely Beyond the Multi-verses.
http://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beyondspacetime2pq7.jpg
He was all there was inside the Multi-verse and outside the Multi-verse.
If TOAA is the dominant personality in a schizo, than Beyonder is somehing like epilepsy, no matter what if Beyonder want the person to fall down on the floor and look stupid he does it.

And Beyonder did care for much?

Beyonder was represented the power of the writers as well, but he was not Multi-versal bonded.

No, they havent.

Thanos_THOTU

He limmited himself on purpose... If you've read some of the classic Beyonder comics you would know.

Thanos_THOTU

Originally posted by charlemagne9746
That statement is grounds for a lawsuit if it is not worded correctly...
Exactly, Beyonder had more power than the writers had leagaly, thus he was retconned.

Creshosk

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
He is the One Above All, which is not a name, but a title. Actually its a name /title given by the fans. Aside form that it was a description which I don't think used the same words...

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Because he is the only being above the Living Tribunal.Which rules out the Beyonder.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
You are talking about a character that isn't Marvel anymmore.
The "Pre-retcon Beyonder" is not Marvel anymore.
Thats the whole point with reconned characters.I'm pretty sure the company still owns the rights to the concept that was retconned...

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
No it would be something like this.
Your snowglobe is the Multi-verse. Beyonder are created outside the Globe,by who? someone outside of the company created the character? Was he just licensed?

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
he enter the Glode destroys it and leave... Funny, the company is still publishing books. looks like he failed to do much of anything in the long run.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
So are you God of anyhing anymore? He destroyed your Multi-verse (which the Beyonder was capable of) are you still a God, even though you have nothing to be "God" over?Seeing as how everything is still there... kinda makes your point moot doesn't it?

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
What are you saying merely Beyond the Multi-verses. You mean outside the company?
Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
http://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beyondspacetime2pq7.jpg
He was all there was inside the Multi-verse and outside the Multi-verse.
If TOAA is the dominant personality in a schizo, than Beyonder is somehing like epilepsy, A chronic seisure disorder?

Now I'm positive you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Especially since schizophrenia is not MPD or Disasosiative Identity disorder.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
no matter what if Beyonder want the person to fall down on the floor and look stupid he does it. Guess he's never wanted that... or anything...

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
And Beyonder did care for much? I guess not.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Beyonder was represented the power of the writers as well, but he was not Multi-versal bonded.What's funny is that there's someone who controls the writers... their boss... and his boss... and so on up to the president/ceo/stockholder with majority rule of the company... who would be the one above all.. that's a description mind you.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
No, they havent. You know, you might have Schizophrenia if you're having trouble telling reality and fantasy apart...

Creshosk

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Exactly, Beyonder had more power than the writers had leagaly, thus he was retconned. So who took away his power?

The writers... who told them to do it?

Their boss... etc etc... but then we loop through lawyers, other lawyers to the plantiff .. . who I guess would have indirectly controlled the beyonder... Funny eh?

Thanos_THOTU

So with you knowledge, Living Tribunal is above the Beyonder+

Do they have the right to say, that he's the sum of everything in Marvel and everything else?

He was made o be beyond the control of Marvel.
He was supose to be the incarnation of power.

Yeah, he was kind... I said a "what if"

So a writer can end Marvel? -- By himself.

Yes, we all know what it means.

No, guess not. -- But statements are statements.

The God's are writers, Beyonder was Stan Lee.

No I don't have trouble differentiate reality from fantasy.

lft4ded

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
The "Pre-retcon Beyonder" is not Marvel anymore.
Thats the whole point with reconned characters.

You mean they didn't get him trademarked back then? That would mean that the writer's of TMNT could've had the Beyonder show up and get murdered by a Mouser. He would've been someone else's pawn then.

Hmmm, so he had a beginning if he was created. TOAA is truly eternal, no beginning, no end. Besides, as God I could recreate the multiverse exactly as it was the moment it was destroyed, when it was destroyed. That's what it means to be above all.

Your paragraph doesn't really change anything. You've just changed the scope of the globe. The white area where Beyonder, Living Tribunal and
Eternity sometimes hangout is outside of the multi-verse. Now instead of a clear snowglobe its white and opaque, except to TOAA.

Epilepsy is uncontrolled isn't it? It doesn't decide to drop you to the ground. He may claim it was his intention but we know the truth.

Beyonder says that he is the sum of everything of everything Beyond. Apparently there is x amount of everything beyond. Kind of like the mass of melted He-Man. You can mold & compact them into a single He-Man and now as far as he's concerned there is the multi-verse, himself, and nothing. He's just unable to perceive the bubble that he exists within.

He limited himself when he was trying to turn away from or stop Phoenix? That makes no sense or why would he try, no his words but according to the narration, to perform these actions if he knew it was futile?

Or are you talking about when he mentioned that his powers had limits when he was about to destroy Multiversal Death?

Thanos_THOTU

Originally posted by Creshosk
So who took away his power?

The writers... who told them to do it?

Their boss... etc etc... but then we loop through lawyers, other lawyers to the plantiff .. . who I guess would have indirectly controlled the beyonder... Funny eh?
Didn't Beyonder retcon himself, by give up most of his powers and turning himslef into a race?

darthgoober

No I'm not wrong. He was limited because he was WRITTEN limited. There was a recton on the character for the same reason. Who was responsible for the writing? TOAA. I'll believe his infinite power when I see him in a DC comic book beating Pre Crisis Superman. That should be no problem for him because he can pop up in any book he wants and bring PC Supes back for the battle. And when he brought back Death he destroyed his friend to do it. If he were actually omnipotent, he would have removed his limitations long enough to bring her back without having to turn Dave into the new Death(which he said was worse than dieing).

darthgoober

lft4ded it's amazing how alike we think.

Creshosk

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
So with you knowledge, Living Tribunal is above the Beyonder+ That's what you claimed. smile

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Do they have the right to say, that he's the sum of everything in Marvel and everything else? Sure, just not allowed to name specifics. or atleast not to make a profit off of something that names a specific. Without permission that is.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
He was made o be beyond the control of Marvel. Looks like he failed. Since Marvel was always in control of him. The only way they'd lose control of him is if they sold the rights to the character... but then someone else would have control of him.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
He was supose to be the incarnation of power. You mean an incarnation of limited power? I'm sorry but he never really seemed to be all that.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Yeah, he was kind... I said a "what if" You tweaked another person's metaphor...

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
So a writer can end Marvel? -- By himself. Nope. Well technically a writer could bomb the company or sell company secrests and force them to go bankrupt or other ways... but within the confines of the law there is little they can do in that regard...

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Yes, we all know what it means. Then whay did you use it incorrectly?

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
No, guess not. -- But statements are statements.

The God's are writers, Beyonder was Stan Lee. So someone who represented it, but had little to no actual say in what the company did, except by suggestion?

And no, the writers had people who controlled them as well... maybe the head of the pantheon in that case...

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
No I don't have trouble differentiate reality from fantasy. Then I hope you don't think that beyonder was beyond marvel...

Thanos_THOTU

Maybe trademark for the name and appearence, but the power?
I dont think they could do that.

Marvel had a beginign and it will most certainly have a end.
Beyonder could do anything you stated up there.

Beyonder didnt hang out outside the universes with the abstracts... exactly how much do you know?

Bad example.

Omniverse is Marvel and everything beyond.

He limmited himself so he could control the powers.

It took a portion of his power because they were limmited (by himself in the first place)
It was stated that Beyonder had the power of the writer?
And no to mention he had powers outside Marvel.
So it's basicly:
Omni-versal writer vs. Mega/Multi-versal Writer

Creshosk

Originally posted by lft4ded
Epilepsy is uncontrolled isn't it? It doesn't decide to drop you to the ground. He may claim it was his intention but we know the truth. There are many different forms of epilepsy and they can more or less be controlled through proper medication...

Creshosk

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Maybe trademark for the name and appearence, but the power?
I dont think they could do that.Trademark the name, copyright the appearence.. and no the power is more of an idea that's not trademark or copyrightable...

The Force ve The Phoenix Force for example.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Marvel had a beginign and it will most certainly have a end.I would hope its not anytime soon. Though I'm a bit pissed at them for decimation... they still have potential.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Beyonder could do anything you stated up there. Care to prove that?

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Beyonder didnt hang out outside the universes with the abstracts... exactly how much do you know? Where did he hang mostly?
inside universes?

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Bad example.Very.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Omniverse is Marvel and everything beyond. Including you and me and Stan the man lee.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
He limmited himself so he could control the powers.Why would he need to limit himself to contorl the powers? he lacked the power to control them otherwise?

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
It took a portion of his power because they were limmited (by himself in the first place)As was said, a portion of infinity is infinity... he was not infinity.
Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
It was stated that Beyonder had the power of the writer?Which is less than the power of an editor-in-cheif...

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
And no to mention he had powers outside Marvel. Care to prove that?
Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
So it's basicly:
Omni-versal writer vs. Mega/Multi-versal Writer Again, schizophrenic if you think that the beyonder can control either of us.

Thanos_THOTU

No I said, Living Tribunal is the most powerful being today (with the exeption of TOAA)
Every being that have beaten him for real have:
1, Had TOAA's power (Thanos)
2, Was TOAA (The Pre-retcon Blue Amalgam Brother)
3, Been more powerful than TOAA (Beyonder)

It was specific.

Yeah, but Marvel is above the writers too? -- And isnt really a part of the comics.

Well, with himself limmiting his power well, yeah.
He also had the power of the writers you know?

Your point?

That's their limmits.

I said it was an bad example. Epilepsy is uncontroleble as well.

Litle to none? -- You know who he is, don't you?

Yeah, it goes all the way up to the President... pft

No.
But if you mean TOAA: God of Marvel, like the writer than you refere to Thanos with the Heart. It was even stated by the wrtier.
And Beyonder was Above him.

Thanos_THOTU

Than we agree.

Yes they do, but they wont print for eternity.

He could destroy and recreate the Multi-verse couldent he?
Look at the Respect Beyonder thread.

How do you think he was present on the SW, He didnt you a manifestation body, like the Living Tribunal...

Yeah, but he's retconned isnt he? -- Never existed.

He could snap his finger and destroy the Multi-verse, if it wasent limmited a nightmare maybe would destroy it...

So why is Eternity, bellow Living Tribunal and he bellow TOAA?
All is infinite.

I belive I had, Mr. Master too, havent you been paying atention.

So what you are saying is if I take a paper here, draw a chacter and say this guy have the power over all the omniverse, does that mean he does have it?
-- No becuase he is a fictional character.

darthgoober

OK this is just becoming silly. The Beyonder did not just appear on a page one day and start drawing the other characters in the comic doing whatever he wanted. There was a script written(by writers and approved by their bosses), the script was then followed by writers and artist, and that is how the Beyonder came into being. Now, it's up to you to prove that the Beyonder had power over everything that was not Marvel, and the only way to do that is to post scans of him in another companies book pulling the same kind of crap that he pulled when he was in Marvel, against the other companies wishes. The burden of proof is yours, so either provide it or your claim that he is greater than TOAA is COMPLETELY UNFOUNDED. Because barring that proof, all we have is the Beyonder's word for it, and that's not enough on this forum.

lft4ded

Originally posted by Creshosk
Especially since schizophrenia is not MPD or Disasosiative Identity disorder.

My mistake. I was using in layman's terms. I don't really know the true definition of any of those terms.

Creshosk

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
No I said, Living Tribunal is the most powerful being today (with the exeption of TOAA)
Every being that have beaten him for real have:
1, Had TOAA's power (Thanos)
2, Was TOAA (The Pre-retcon Blue Amalgam Brother)
3, Been more powerful than TOAA (Beyonder)
"Because he is the only being above the Living Tribunal."

Do you want me to review what the word only means?

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
It was specific. So they mentioned the DC universe by name? or image comics? What was the specific?

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Yeah, but Marvel is above the writers too? -- And isnt really a part of the comics. Well since the writers work for Marvel Comics...
Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Well, with himself limmiting his power well, yeah.
He also had the power of the writers you know?Which isn't as strong as the Editor-in-Cheif who like assigns writers to projects and allows or disallows them to do things... Writers have limited power. So guess what?

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Your point? You didn't say a what if, you tweaked another person's metaphore.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
That's their limmits. and that means that working off of a limited power... means you are not omnipotent...

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
I said it was an bad example. Epilepsy is uncontroleble as well. I sure as hell hope its controllable... well, technically mine's not fully controlled, but we've got it down to minor ones every 2-5 minutes that really don't bother me... well except for certain things .. but that's politics.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Litle to none? -- You know who he is, don't you?The question is do you?

He's a retired chairman. He appeared in X3. He's a writer and an editor.

And he sued Marvel Comics because they didn't pay him anything when they made the first Spiderman movie...

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Yeah, it goes all the way up to the President... pftWhich was not in the description of the character... at least not an acurate one.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
No. then why make the claim?
Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
But if you mean TOAA: God of Marvel, like the writer than you refere to Thanos with the Heart. It was even stated by the wrtier.
And Beyonder was Above him. Beyonder was above the writer?

Schizo.

Creshosk

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Than we agree.Yeah, that means that Marvel can't legally claim that Beyonder is more powerful than Jimmy Olsen.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Yes they do, but they wont print for eternity.Sadly.

But it's not going to be the beyonder that does that... unless they like publish nothing but him... doing monologs or something.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
He could destroy and recreate the Multi-verse couldent he?
Look at the Respect Beyonder thread.Took a bit of his power to destroy multi-death.. not very omnipotent to take up any of your power.

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
How do you think he was present on the SW, He didnt you a manifestation body, like the Living Tribunal...

Yeah, but he's retconned isnt he? -- Never existed.The omniverse is retconned?

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
He could snap his finger and destroy the Multi-verse, if it wasent limmited a nightmare maybe would destroy it... Yeah, limited being the key word.. so no...

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
So why is Eternity, bellow Living Tribunal and he bellow TOAA?
All is infinite. because the president of Marvel is not omnipotent. wink

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
I belive I had, Mr. Master too, havent you been paying atention.Sorry, I tend to tune fanboys out from time to time... what were we talking aobut? wink

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
So what you are saying is if I take a paper here, draw a chacter and say this guy have the power over all the omniverse, does that mean he does have it? Nope. You can make that claim all you want though.
Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
-- No becuase he is a fictional character. Good... now then, who has power over ficitional characters and can make them do what they want?

Creshosk

Originally posted by lft4ded
My mistake. I was using in layman's terms. I don't really know the true definition of any of those terms. No harm, no foul. smile

Thanos_THOTU

Originally posted by Creshosk
Yeah, that means that Marvel can't legally claim that Beyonder is more powerful than Jimmy Olsen.

Sadly.

But it's not going to be the beyonder that does that... unless they like publish nothing but him... doing monologs or something.

Took a bit of his power to destroy multi-death.. not very omnipotent to take up any of your power.

The omniverse is retconned?

Yeah, limited being the key word.. so no...

because the president of Marvel is not omnipotent. wink

Sorry, I tend to tune fanboys out from time to time... what were we talking aobut? wink

Nope. You can make that claim all you want though.
Good... now then, who has power over ficitional characters and can make them do what they want?
I'm not going to quote the same thing over and over again, esspecially since 90% of it have nothing to do with this topic anway.
This is just an other Thanos w/ Heart vs Beyonder (Pre-retcon) thread.
I could sit here and explain everything, but 10 minutes later you would type the exactly same thing.

Beyonder had the power of the wrtiers... So basicly he was TOAA
Just like Thanos with the Heart...

Creshosk

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
I'm not going to quote the same thing over and over again, esspecially since 90% of it have nothing to do with this topic anway.
This is just an other Thanos w/ Heart vs Beyonder (Pre-retcon) thread.
I could sit here and explain everything, but 10 minutes later you would type the exactly same thing.

Beyonder had the power of the wrtiers... So basicly he was TOAA
Just like Thanos with the Heart... You say its off topic. but then you go and say something like "he had the power of the writers...

The writers are not TOAA... TOAA would be the person who controls the company if we talk about the writers.

The problem now is that your'e setting up a double standard.

You can talk about company aspects, but others can't?

And what's sad is you haven't even backed up any of your statements about him being omniversal.

Was the Beyonder schizophrenic? You know making claims about his power that exceeded his limits, and then also wasn't able to back them up?

Much like that one guy who supposedly slew everyone in his own universe, and then gets punked by a dude half as durable as collosus moving at half the speed of light... and Gambit.

All talk but no substance. the Hyperbole.. oh that's right that dude was Hyperion... hyperbole, hyperion...

darthgoober

OK, let's assume for a minute that the Beyonder was GIVEN the power to beat the writers(TOAA). Fine. Because at one point in time the Beyonder gave Phoenix the power to beat him. And then later he TOOK IT BACK! Now this is a vs forum. As per the rules of the forum, both character's fight to the best of their ability. That means that TOAA takes back the power that he gave the Beyonder and wins this fight. And no one can deny that the TOAA has that abilitiy, because the Beyonder did the same thing to Phoenix. So if he had the power of the writers, that means that they can do the same thing. So basically, we can go back and forth all day about wether or not he is more powerful than TOAA. But it's a moot point because if he is, it's only when TOAA allows him to be. And overall, that's still a greater power.

Creshosk

Like Galactus and the Silver Surfer.. or Cyttorak and the Juggernaught.

What I giveth, I taketh away...

Abd that's exactly what the writers did... we just know that incident as the retcon itself. Oops...

TOAA vs Beyonder
TOAA: Retcon biyotch.
Beyonder: Sonuva...

darthgoober

But really, in all seriousness...

laughing out loud

Thanos_THOTU

Originally posted by Creshosk
Like Galactus and the Silver Surfer.. or Cyttorak and the Juggernaught.

What I giveth, I taketh away...

Abd that's exactly what the writers did... we just know that incident as the retcon itself. Oops...

TOAA vs Beyonder
TOAA: Retcon biyotch.
Beyonder: Sonuva...
What I given I can take away, so:
Richard Reeds and Sue Storm can take away Franklin Richards power.
I mean they give birth to he and his powers.
Same goes for Jean's human parents.

Yeah, Beyonder is retconned, but still seen as a specific character.
TOAA have failed...

Are you talking TOAA as a fictional character or TOAA as the writer?

Acording to Jack Kirby the writer was supose to be God (not the company) and his power the pen.

darthgoober

OK, Ive been giving this a lot of thought, and I think I have figured something out. Now, everyone assumes that Marvel, DC, and all of the other comic companies exist within the same omniverse because the Omniverse is supposed to be EVERYTHING. But that's not necessarily true. I think(and this is just my opinion your welcome to disagree) that if nothing else, the two major companies(Marvel and DC), each are their own omniverse. I mean, why do they have to exist in any type of structure together. The companies themselves don't share a building, so why should their creations have to share space no matter how distant. The companies themselves don't consult with one another and agree on omniversal threats so why should we assume that they share the same omniverse. Their crossovers don't count even as cannon(with the exception of JLA vs Avengers) so why do we feel the need to lump them together on any level. Have the companies themselves stated that they share an omniverse together or is that something that readers have assumed? Because if it is just assumed, why can't they be completely separate, just as the companies are.

If the chaos wave from Marvel hadn't been stopped, do you really think that DC would have shown it's effects there? No, because the two companies are on two completely different planes of existence, and NOTHING, no matter how big, can cross the boundaries between the the two without the others consent. That tells me that the separation between the two goes way beyond being two megaverses, sharing an omniveres. Now the specifics of each section is irrelevant, because it doesn't matter if something is universal, multiversal, megaversal, or omniversal because all of it is still confined to one company, just like it actually is.

Now something happens in this instance. The supreme being's of each company get elevated in power. Because now the Presence, and TOAA rule over EVERYTHING. Period. Because as far as they're concerned the other company doesn't exist. Which is how it should be since they're considered supreme throughout the company(omniverse). If you don't follow this then things get confusing because if they're just megaverses than there is an even higher supreme being, running the omniverse, and since neither company will EVER come to a consensus about that, that means that somehow the Presence and TOAA have always existed side by side in an mutual omniverse that has no origin, because no one created it.

Now before you discount my theory please remember that unless BOTH companies(not just one) have stated that they exist in the same omniverse, or said something else which directly contradicts what I have just stated, my way actually makes more sense, and is just as valid as the currently accepted order. However, if they have officially stated that they share an omniverse, let me know and I withdraw my theory and no one will ever hear about it again. I'm not trying to write things for either company, I'm just trying to put into words what they never bothered to.
And I know that this just support my arguments about this fight, but that's because my arguments and my theory make sense to me. The fact is that the Beyonder hasn't shown actual omniscience, while TOAA has, so I can't believe that he possesses more power than TOAA. It just wouldn't make sense for ANYONE to have more power than the supreme being. Because, well, supreme is supreme. But like I said this is a theory that I just came up with and I'm not trying to claim that it's the Gods honest truth, so if you find any holes in it, let me know. But now it's almost 6:00 A.M. and I've been working on this for a long time so I'm going to bed.

darthgoober

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
What I given I can take away, so:
Richard Reeds and Sue Storm can take away Franklin Richards power.
I mean they give birth to he and his powers.
Same goes for Jean's human parents.

Yeah, Beyonder is retconned, but still seen as a specific character.
TOAA have failed...

Are you talking TOAA as a fictional character or TOAA as the writer?

Acording to Jack Kirby the writer was supose to be God (not the company) and his power the pen.

Yeah I think we got our wires crossed, my in first post you responed to I was talking about the fictional character, but then I started thinking you were a nut that was talking about the actual writer. Sorry for the confusion, thats my bad.

lft4ded

Originally posted by darthgoober
OK, Ive been giving this a lot of thought, and I think I have figured something out.

This makes a lot of sense actually. And I haven't heard anything to the contrary. How long were you typing this up? big grin

Thanos_THOTU

If I can take a image or comicbok with the Hulk, tear it into pieces.
Does that make me stronger than him, as a fictional character?

If I go and kill Jack Kirby does that make me above TOAA?
Ok, that maybe was a little much but you get the picture.

A writer is only human, his imagination might be a better picture for TOAA power. But it still not unlimmited, Humanity can't describe the 7th dimention for example.
Imagination is based on knowledge, and in this case imagination is the power.

But as a fictional character God, both in DC and Marvel have show just average featatures, compared to Beyonder.
But Beyonder cannot jump out from a comic book and strangle a writer...

darthgoober

Originally posted by lft4ded
This makes a lot of sense actually. And I haven't heard anything to the contrary. How long were you typing this up? big grin

About 2 1/2 hours actually. I feel the need to go back and change things I write repeatedly untill I'm sure they won't be misunderstood. Plus I continously reexamine them while I'm typing to make sure I agree with what I put down in writing.

lft4ded

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
But as a fictional character God, both in DC and Marvel have show just average featatures, compared to Beyonder.
But Beyonder cannot jump out from a comic book and strangle a writer...

Have they shown any features? All I know of for TOAA is that he presented a face to the FF and that he manipulated Thanos when he had the Heart. I'm not sure how this is turned into 'average'?

Thanos_THOTU

Originally posted by lft4ded
Have they shown any features? All I know of for TOAA is that he presented a face to the FF and that he manipulated Thanos when he had the Heart. I'm not sure how this is turned into 'average'?
TOAA manipulated Thanos (He was his mind) -- Thanos had tHotU TOAA's power.
Yet Death survived because she exist in all realities, not only Marvel.

lft4ded

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
TOAA manipulated Thanos (He was his mind) -- Thanos had tHotU TOAA's power.
Yet Death survived because she exist in all realities, not only Marvel.

Perhaps, it was his unrequitted love, that caused him to spare Death. Thanos mentioned after the Infinity Gauntlet that even he doesn't have total control over his subconscious mind, when speaking of how he was defeated (that he wasn't worthy).
Besides, the Living Tribunal is above Death, and he couldn't resist Thanos' power.

Thanos_THOTU

Originally posted by lft4ded
Perhaps, it was his unrequitted love, that caused him to spare Death. Thanos mentioned after the Infinity Gauntlet that even he doesn't have total control over his subconscious mind, when speaking of how he was defeated (that he wasn't worthy).
Besides, the Living Tribunal is above Death, and he couldn't resist Thanos' power.
But that wasent the point, Living Tribunal is just Marvel-Multiversal.
Death exist everywhere in the Megaverse.
That's why he coudldent take her out, she exist even in the realm Warlock was in that made him survive.

Juntai

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
If I can take a image or comicbok with the Hulk, tear it into pieces.
Does that make me stronger than him, as a fictional character?

If I go and kill Jack Kirby does that make me above TOAA?
Ok, that maybe was a little much but you get the picture.

A writer is only human, his imagination might be a better picture for TOAA power. But it still not unlimmited, Humanity can't describe the 7th dimention for example.
Imagination is based on knowledge, and in this case imagination is the power.

But as a fictional character God, both in DC and Marvel have show just average featatures, compared to Beyonder.
But Beyonder cannot jump out from a comic book and strangle a writer... Really? Mxy's actually done something very close to that. In one issue of Superman he almost got one of the current people on the book fired, because apperently he's good friends with the DC editor in chief.
But in DC, God is above the writers too.
Grant Morrison had basically told Animal Man that himself.
smile

Thanos_THOTU

TGEB lost, God isnt above the writers...

Juntai

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
TGEB lost, God isnt above the writers... You're right, I'll take your word for it, despite all the contradictory evidence.

Thanos_THOTU

Originally posted by Juntai
You're right, I'll take your word for it, despite all the contradictory evidence.
Fact is every fictional character can be retconned by the writer.
If they realesed a comic were the Living Tribunal fights and defeats a being named the One Above All (and is not the Celestial) well than that is a retcon.
So yeah the wrtier isnt really God, God is just a character that the writer gave power.

nvrbeenwthagirl

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
I'm not going to quote the same thing over and over again, esspecially since 90% of it have nothing to do with this topic anway.
This is just an other Thanos w/ Heart vs Beyonder (Pre-retcon) thread.
I could sit here and explain everything, but 10 minutes later you would type the exactly same thing.

Beyonder had the power of the wrtiers... So basicly he was TOAA
Just like Thanos with the Heart...
The beyonder did not have the power of the one above all. The True one above all at marvel is the editor in chief. He tells them what to do. He listens to the lawyers and copyright guys and all that extra stuff and lays down the law. The one above all at marvel is Joe quesada. And his power would impede that the beyonder would never be able to challenge the might of DC's presence becuase DC would have the right to sue the hell out of marvel and cuase grave financial dmg to marvel. Marvel is the bigger comics comapany by a slim margin. But DC's parent company is like a damn abstract in the entertainment world. Time Warner is Galactus. lol.

Juntai

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Fact is every fictional character can be retconned by the writer.
If they realesed a comic were the Living Tribunal fights and defeats a being named the One Above All (and is not the Celestial) well than that is a retcon.
So yeah the wrtier isnt really God, God is just a character that the writer gave power. True in a sense, however, the real universe, at least in DC, is part of the DCOmniverse.

Mr Mxyzptlk has popped into the 'real world' even so recently as a handful of issues before Crisis and Mxy complained to the editor that they weren't doing a great job with the comic, and the Editor promptly had it fixed. Oh- and it appeared Mxy also had his full range of powers in the real world, as his teleportations and flying among other powers still worked. smile

Thanos_THOTU

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
The beyonder did not have the power of the one above all. The True one above all at marvel is the editor in chief. He tells them what to do. He listens to the lawyers and copyright guys and all that extra stuff and lays down the law. The one above all at marvel is Joe quesada. And his power would impede that the beyonder would never be able to challenge the might of DC's presence becuase DC would have the right to sue the hell out of marvel and cuase grave financial dmg to marvel. Marvel is the bigger comics comapany by a slim margin. But DC's parent company is like a damn abstract in the entertainment world. Time Warner is Galactus. lol.
Your "editor in chef" does not have the power to create.
He tells the writer what to do, so in fact your both wrong and right.
In the premotion ladder he might be one step ahead.
But he uses the writers power to create, not his own. -- Becuase you cannot have a greater power than the writer.

And it's the first time I heard someone say that Joe is TOAA.
By Jack Kirby's little add in the Fantastic four, we got the image of that the writer is "God", but not as a fictional character.
In that issue, "God" talked on the phone... ect. ect.
So Jack Kirby with the help of Stan Lee was God there. -- but I think he was refering to the writer.
Do you seriously think that Joe Quesada?
I'm not even sure that he is the one who reads the comics before it's realesed. he's only there to make $.
-- And the fact that you can't suport that claim... well you get it.

TOAA is a wierd expression, it was invented by Jim Starlin under the Infinity Gauntlet/Crusade series.
Never actully stated that this being was God, that's just speculation.
It was only stated that this being was above the Living Tribunal and the God's.

Juntai

But its been made quite clear in this thread the others before that by TOAA, we were talking about Marvel's Supreme Being. We use "TOAA" because it's the most generally accepted.

Thanos_THOTU

Originally posted by Juntai
True in a sense, however, the real universe, at least in DC, is part of the DCOmniverse.

Mr Mxyzptlk has popped into the 'real world' even so recently as a handful of issues before Crisis and Mxy complained to the editor that they weren't doing a great job with the comic, and the Editor promptly had it fixed. Oh- and it appeared Mxy also had his full range of powers in the real world, as his teleportations and flying among other powers still worked. smile

Yes, but your missing the point.
Writer's arent a fictional, even they sometimes try to be one.
They not really a part of the story.

Even though Mr. Mxyzptlk have shown some great non-canon feats.
Classic Molecule man and classic Beyonder have made greater statements and feats.
Molecule man recreated the Multi-verse with a finger...
And while doing that he talked to the Beyonder...
No strugle there at all.

When someone says: God; in a comicbook forum, you should connect it to Thanos w/ THOTU or TGEB. -- Because that is what God is in Marvel and DC. -- At least powerwise.

Thanos_THOTU

Originally posted by Juntai
But its been made quite clear in this thread the others before that by TOAA, we were talking about Marvel's Supreme Being. We use "TOAA" because it's the most generally accepted.
So are you sayng that the writer or a stock owner of Marvel have a own body in the comics?
That his connected to two different Multi-verses?

Or do you mean that there is a being out there that (in the comics) that all of Marvel, all of the writers give their power, that they serve some being in the comics?

Thats just wierd..

Juntai

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Yes, but your missing the point.
Writer's arent a fictional, even they sometimes try to be one.
They not really a part of the story.

Even though Mr. Mxyzptlk have shown some great non-canon feats.
Classic Molecule man and classic Beyonder have made greater statements and feats.
Molecule man recreated the Multi-verse with a finger...
And while doing that he talked to the Beyonder...
No strugle there at all.

When someone says: God; in a comicbook forum, you should connect it to Thanos w/ THOTU or TGEB. -- Because that is what God is in Marvel and DC. -- At least powerwise. That's your interpretation. You're welcome to it, however wrong it may be.

Thanos_THOTU

Originally posted by Juntai
That's your interpretation. You're welcome to it, however wrong it may be.
So your implying that I am wrong.
Than tell me... How should it be?

nvrbeenwthagirl

The beyonder CANNOT defeat DC's the Presence. All this other stuff is speculation and philosophical Dialogue, best left to another forum. The Minute the Beyonder enters the DC mega verse, The Presence tells Mxy that some new imp is trying to mess with his play ground and it's on. And after Mxy gets thru wearing the beyonder out, The ALE comes and takes his turn a whooping THe beyonder's ass. Then The Spectre fully powered by the Presence kicks the beyonder out of the DC main universe into the wildstorm universe where he is demoted to a member of the wildcats as voodoo's understudy.

kevdude

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
The beyonder CANNOT defeat DC's the Presence. All this other stuff is speculation and philosophical Dialogue, best left to another forum. The Minute the Beyonder enters the DC mega verse, The Presence tells Mxy that some new imp is trying to mess with his play ground and it's on. And after Mxy gets thru wearing the beyonder out, The ALE comes and takes his turn a whooping THe beyonder's ass. Then The Spectre fully powered by the Presence kicks the beyonder out of the DC main universe into the wildstorm universe where he is demoted to a member of the wildcats as voodoo's understudy.

Very true he can not defeat Yahweh/The Presence. The Beyonder didn't know everything. The Presence does know everything. The Beyonder had to trick MU Death into killing herself something The Presence wouldn't need to trick the DC Death into doing he could just blink her out of existance. Marvels God would also win.

Creshosk

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Your "editor in chef" does not have the power to create.

Funny how he's created the character Catiana and Joe Quesada has been centrally involved in the creation of three successful imprints:

Marvel Knights, aimed at older readers (this was before his tenure as editor-in-chief)
MAX, aimed at adult readers, with Brian Michael Bendis
Ultimate, aimed at new readers, with Brian Michael Bendis, and Mark Millar

Anyway this fight has been done. Pre-retcon Beyonder versus TOAA results in the retconned Beyonder.

Thanos_THOTU

So is TOAA a fictional character or a writer?
-- I seriously start to wonder who's sichzo here...

Thanos_THOTU

Originally posted by kevdude
Very true he can not defeat Yahweh/The Presence. The Beyonder didn't know everything. The Presence does know everything. The Beyonder had to trick MU Death into killing herself something The Presence wouldn't need to trick the DC Death into doing he could just blink her out of existance. Marvels God would also win.
Knowdelge is overestiamted... When it comes to a fight the only matter is power.
Knowledge keeps you away from battles you cannot win.
And the feats of the Great Evil Beast have been kinda lame, I wouldent state him over the Living Tribunal...

Thanos_THOTU

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
The beyonder CANNOT defeat DC's the Presence. All this other stuff is speculation and philosophical Dialogue, best left to another forum. The Minute the Beyonder enters the DC mega verse, The Presence tells Mxy that some new imp is trying to mess with his play ground and it's on. And after Mxy gets thru wearing the beyonder out, The ALE comes and takes his turn a whooping THe beyonder's ass. Then The Spectre fully powered by the Presence kicks the beyonder out of the DC main universe into the wildstorm universe where he is demoted to a member of the wildcats as voodoo's understudy.
Yeah... well this isnt the place for speculation...
Besides Mr. Mxyzptlk
(and please spell his name correct, you just look ignorant if you type Myx, the least you could do is spell the tree first letters right: Mxy)
Anyhow mr. mxyzptlk would have no chanse in hell of beating the Beyonder not even at his non canon max - from the world funniest.
Anti-Life Equalation superior to the Beyonder, you underastimate this guy. and I think you know it. -- just to proud to admit it.