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Post Star Forge Revan and ROTS Obi-Wan Kenobi face off against
ROTS Mace Windu and NJO Kyle Katarn.

Which duo will win?


Setting: Flat Hard Surface

Kyle and Mace. Either Mace or Kyle would be able to prevail over Obi-Wan, and at the least either one of them could stall Revan until the other has beaten Obi, then they double team him...

Wonderful, lets add an unknown character and put him into an even more unknown situation(post star forge).

This is a close battle, Obi-Wan and Kyle are about even but I think revan could take Mace so after Revan takes Mace out he and Obi together'd pwn Kyle.

Originally posted by darthsith19
This is a close battle, Obi-Wan and Kyle are about even but I think revan could take Mace so after Revan takes Mace out he and Obi together'd pwn Kyle.

How is Revan unknown?

Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
How is Revan unknown? He's a video game character, and to make things worse he comes from a damned RPG; which only leaves more confusion as to his actual power as of this point.

especially post Star Forge

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
especially post Star Forge That, and Malak's words about Revan's strength on the Star Forge can be taken into question. Mostly credibility wise.

Originally posted by Lord Saboteur
He's a video game character, and to make things worse he comes from a damned RPG; which only leaves more confusion as to his actual power as of this point.

If he's so unknown how can people claim he's on par with Yoda, or that he'll be the likes of Ulic or Anakin? And I'm talking "post Star Forge" as Revan after he beats Malak (specifically power stop at that point), not Revan diving into the unknown depths of the galaxy.

Originally posted by Advent
If he's so unknown how can people claim he's on par with Yoda, or that he'll be the likes of Ulic or Anakin? And I'm talking "post Star Forge" as Revan after he beats Malak (specifically power stop at that point), not Revan diving into the unknown depths of the galaxy.

Because Revan is uber cool and we consider guys that are mysterious to be better than everybody

kyle or Mace could do this individually.

Oh really, great argument.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Oh really, great argument.

Mace beats Revan and Kyle beats Obi Wan.

Well, I would say

Revan > Mace
Obi-Wan < Kyle

or

Revan ? Kyle
Obi-Wan < Mace

I rank Revan around Yoda's level, and I consider Kyle to be on par with Yoda.

I rank Revan to be slightly less than Asajj. How you rank him doesn't matter, especially with Revan, because, we need facts to back it up. Mace has Vapaad, Shatterpoint, and decades of experience. Revan has a mask.

There's also the fact that Revan was basically worshipped like a god in an era with people like Sion, Traya and Nihilus. Nobody was ever able to defeat him, he was basically unstoppable. And while his skills are pretty much unknown, his accomplishments aren't.

When was Revan described as godlike or undefetable?

Did I say he was described as godlike? These were my exact words -'There's also the fact that Revan was basically worshipped like a god'.
The way Kreia, Mandalore, Brianna etc. verbally fellate him, he must have been exceptional.

And he was basically unstoppable. Noone was ever able to defeat him - Yusanis, Cassus Fett, Mandalore, SF powered Darth Malak. Not even an entire fortress full of dark jedi, advanced battle droids and soldiers were able to stop him from achieving his goal.

Fun. Now look at Mace.

Wonderful rebuttal.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
I rank Revan to be slightly less than Asajj. How you rank him doesn't matter, especially with Revan, because, we need facts to back it up. Mace has Vapaad, Shatterpoint, and decades of experience. Revan has a mask.

Facts like what, him defeating a star forge powered Malak+8 Jedi? Malak, who was the most powerful of all the Jedi and all the Sith except for Revan? Or the fact that Revan was the most powerful of his time?

Man, there's been over a hundred arguments of how good Revan is, and you compare him with Asajj??? Then what's Malak then, equavalent to Kit Fisto???

*Single handedly defeated a seismic tank on Dantooine.
*Only ever beaten by Yoda and Dooku.
*Beat Greivous in lightsaber combat.
*Outclassed Asajj in combat, even when she used her double bladed lightsaber.
*Shatterpoint.
*Vaapad.
*Easily outclassed Quinlain Vos in combat.
*Left Sora Bulq in a pile of debris.
*Said to be on par with Yoda (he isn't as good, but he sure is close).
*Survived Geonosis (and the rest of the Clone Wars).
*Killed Jango Fett.
*Beat Sidious in lightsaber combat and was able to hold off his lightning for a good time.
*Has used force crush and other direct assaults with the force.

There are those and many more.
Revan was able to (sneak his way through the Star Forge?, and) beat Malak after an "Epic duel."(Suggesting that it was close).

Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
Man, there's been over a hundred arguments of how good Revan is, and you compare him with Asajj??? Then what's Malak then, equavalent to Kit Fisto???

I was just giving an example. You need to prove up with facts, not just say "He was as good as Yoda so he wins."

Originally posted by jollyjim311
*Single handedly defeated a seismic tank on Dantooine.
*Only ever beaten by Yoda and Dooku.
*Beat Greivous in lightsaber combat.
*Outclassed Asajj in combat, even when she used her double bladed lightsaber.
*Shatterpoint.
*Vaapad.
*Easily outclassed Quinlain Vos in combat.
*Left Sora Bulq in a pile of debris.
*Said to be on par with Yoda (he isn't as good, but he sure is close).
*Survived Geonosis (and the rest of the Clone Wars).
*Killed Jango Fett.
*Beat Sidious in lightsaber combat and was able to hold off his lightning for a good time.
*Has used force crush and other direct assaults with the force.

There are those and many more.
Revan was able to (sneak his way through the Star Forge?, and) beat Malak after an "Epic duel."(Suggesting that it was close).

Yet logical deduction suggests that Malak was probably at his best, as good as Dooku, while a Star Forge powered +8 Jedi powered Malak>>>Dooku. So what does this say about Revan?

Show me the logic then.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Show me the logic then.


Malak was the second most powerful jedi in an order of thousands, second most powerful sith in an order of thousands, it has often been argued on this forum that a regular Malak is most likely equal to Dooku, maybe even at best. But then you have a star forge powered Malak who drained the life of 8 Jedi, and Revan still beat him. Now unless you are arguing that Dooku>SF powered+8 Jedi powered Malak, then it's safe to say Revan>Dooku. So tell me again how Mace>Revan?

'*Single handedly defeated a seismic tank on Dantooine.'

Revan was able to kill two Tarentateks at once.

'*Only ever beaten by Yoda and Dooku.'

Revan was undefeated as far as we know, and his era saw far more jedi-dark jedi combat than Mace's did.

'*Outclassed Asajj in combat, even when she used her double bladed lightsaber.'

Revan was basically head and shoulders above everybody in his era, an era with many saber staff wielding jedi.

'*Beat Greivous in lightsaber combat.'

As did Obi-Wan, man that dude must have been a god with a saber.

'*Killed Jango Fett.'

Revan killed Cassus Fett.

'Revan was able to (sneak his way through the Star Forge?,'

Right, Revan was able to sneak his way through a fortress full of force sensitives.

'beat Malak after an "Epic duel."(Suggesting that it was close).'

Malak was exceptional under normal conditions, in their 'epic' duel, he was powered by the SF making him extremely more powerful. Malak even comments that Revan may have become invincible if he were to have unlocked the full secrets of the SF - now this either speaks incredibly for the added power of the SF, or for Revan, either way it strengthens my argument.


Might I add that your argument seems to be riding on the fact that there is more source material concerning Mace than there is Revan?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Malak was the second most powerful jedi in an order of thousands, second most powerful sith in an order of thousands, it has often been argued on this forum that a regular Malak is most likely equal to Dooku, maybe even at best. But then you have a star forge powered Malak who drained the life of 8 Jedi, and Revan still beat him. Now unless you are arguing that Dooku>SF powered+8 Jedi powered Malak, then it's safe to say Revan>Dooku. So tell me again how Mace>Revan?

Not bad nebaris.

Why thank you, I thought it was pretty good myself.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Not bad nebaris.


...You posted that...

Originally posted by jollyjim311
...You posted that...

Uhh.. Ok? And your rebuttal is where?

Nice job Sith'ari.




Pfff, what's that supposed to mean??? And why use me as one of your examples, how rude !!! I was mad at the time, and well...... I guess Master Windu is a level higher than mine .

Double post. Look down.

Lol, good job Sith'ari and DS!

Originally posted by jollyjim311
*Single handedly defeated a seismic tank on Dantooine.
*Only ever beaten by Yoda and Dooku.
*Beat Greivous in lightsaber combat.
*Outclassed Asajj in combat, even when she used her double bladed lightsaber.
*Shatterpoint.
*Vaapad.
*Easily outclassed Quinlain Vos in combat.
*Left Sora Bulq in a pile of debris.
*Said to be on par with Yoda (he isn't as good, but he sure is close).
*Survived Geonosis (and the rest of the Clone Wars).
*Killed Jango Fett.
*Beat Sidious in lightsaber combat and was able to hold off his lightning for a good time.
*Has used force crush and other direct assaults with the force.

There are those and many more.
Revan was able to (sneak his way through the Star Forge?, and) beat Malak after an "Epic duel."(Suggesting that it was close).

... Does that not count? And if Malak was unchallenged, why'd he lose his jaw in lightsaber combat.

Sorry for the double post, it gave me the "Page cannot be displayed " thing.

Yeah, so some freak ambitious Sith ambushes him and cuts off his jaw. Then Malak pwns him.

I think the battle will turn into ROTS Obi Wan versus Kyle Katarn while Revan duels Mace.

Kyle is a better duelist and force user than Obi Wan, chances are the battle would be in his favour. But this does not matter, since all Obi Wan needs to do is stall Katarn.

Revan is stronger than Mace with respect to using the force, and in saber combat they are both about equal. (Mace has Vaapad and Revan has Echani Precognition)

Either Revan kills Mace first using his superiour force abilities (powerful forms of force lightning, more potent than the ones used by ROTS Sidious), or Katarn kills Kenobi (which will take more time I believe)

Logic dictates that it would take Katarn time to defeat Kenobi, since Obi Wan is the soresu master (style used for defense, defending against Katarn, he could buy time for Revan).

Afterwards Revan comes to Obi Wan's side and together the duo defeats Katarn.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
... Does that not count? And if Malak was unchallenged, why'd he lose his jaw in lightsaber combat.

You've listed feat wars, that's nice. I don't see how those put Mace above Revan? It can already be established that a SW powered Maka>Dooku, and Revan>Malak, so Revan would either be equal to Mace or superior to him. And what exactly happened to Malak's jaw is unknown. Let's say he did lose it to Kvar, you can't use that in an argument. For all you know he lost it to Kavar at the beginning of his fall to the dark side. Malak became more and more powerful overtime, ESPECIALLY when he took control of the star forge.

He probably lost it to Revan himself.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You've listed feat wars, that's nice. I don't see how those put Mace above Revan? It can already be established that a SW powered Maka>Dooku, and Revan>Malak, so Revan would either be equal to Mace or superior to him. And what exactly happened to Malak's jaw is unknown. Let's say he did lose it to Kvar, you can't use that in an argument. For all you know he lost it to Kavar at the beginning of his fall to the dark side. Malak became more and more powerful overtime, ESPECIALLY when he took control of the star forge.

I've listed accomplishments that are relative to a fight. You established that Malak > Dooku on no basis. Dooku was a Makashi master, has decades of experience more than Malak, was trained by Yoda and Sidious, and has shown us much more. Malak is just an idiot who was barely beaten by Revan. Revans list of accomplishments aren't nearly as good as Mace's as far as combat goes, and, the points I've posted show that Mace is better than Revan.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You've listed feat wars, that's nice.

It's wonderful you tell jim he listed Feat Wars, but so did Sith'ari.



Prove it. Amplify, quantify, and specify the powers of the Star Forge. I'll be waiting.

'Prove it. Amplify, quantify, and specify the powers of the Star Forge. I'll be waiting.'

Malak comments that Revan may have become invincible if he were to have unlocked the full secrets of the SF - now this either speaks incredibly for the added power of the SF, or for Revan, either way it strengthens my argument - unless you want to argue that Malak's opinion means jack which is a pretty blatant way of trying to downplay Revan.

Its stated in KOTOR that the Star Forge drained the force from an entire race and it's civilization. That is a significant supply of force energy, given that the Rakatan's themselves were powerful force users, and all their technology and structures relied on the force to empower them.

It grants the wielder "powerful" enough to use it superiour abilities in the force, and what more heals them. This is stated by Malak himself on board the Star Forge, (he states that Revan was 'stupid' as he missed the entire purpose of the Star Forge.) Afterwards, the weapon was described as so powerful that it annihialated countless other Sith masters of the time (of whom Obsidian Entertainment have not yet elaborated on) which were under Revan.

Malak had a station with an enormous supply of "force energy" if you will, which he relied on, but nevertheless, Revan defeated him in what was described as an "epic duel."

for the record, didn't we already have this Dooku vs. Malak debate? You're asking me to quantify an unknown. But what is known is that it would be ridiculous to put Dooku above a Malak powered by the star forge, considering Malak was the 2nd best of his time. There is no need to quantify the SF when you're comparing Malak to Dooku, unless you have a case that Dooku>Malak..

Show me where you get the idea that Revan is better than Mace with the force or a lightsaber.
Mace has stopped a landslide. Revan impressed a primitive species with lightning.
Mace has crushed Greivous and crashed a speeder into him using the force. Revan has a bunch of people in love with him that over-hype him.
Mace was known for his great wisdom. Revan would be able to control the Star Forge, which Malak, an idiot, was able to control.
Mace uses Vaapad, one of the deadliest forms. Revan uses "Slash and wait two seconds to attack again" form. Basically, we don't know what form he uses.
Mace seems to be older than Revan, and probably has more experience.
Mace can use shatterpoint to find a weakspot in Revan's defence. Revan can... recruit people?

I love how you are ignore the fact that Revan did tie the second best duelist of his time while the said duelist was amplified with the power of the star forge.Also I suppose demonstrating the ability of calling down lightning from the sky (which makes ROTS Sidious' lightning look pretty pussy) is not enough. Let's ignore facts if you will.




Do I smell anti Revan bias here?

I suppose you forgot the fact that stopping a landslide is purely force telekenisis, which several force users have demonstrated before. Really, this point is moot once Yoda stated that "size matters not."



Alright using force crush on Grievous, a robot that did not EVEN have the force to defend himself.



Firstly, simply stating that Windu can "crash" landspeeders means jack shit considering that Grievous was devoid of the force. How do you know that he could pull the same stunt on Revan, given the said DLOTS exception ability with the force.

Can Mace deflect force lightning? Sure, but just barely. Was Revan's lightning stronger than ROTS Sidious', well you would have to be a fool to argue otherwise. DE Sidious' force storm was much like Revan's (admitedly much more powerful), they did not originate from wielders fingertips.



Choosing to spit at evidence, and continue with your biased view I see.



What the hell is this? Was Vodo's great wisdom enough to save him from being PWNT QED by Exar Kun?

For the record, Revan was probably incredibly wise. He used forthought in his actions, as he did not believe in destroying the republic infrastructure. In fact many would argue that he was wise enough to never be corrupted by the dark side. It was believed that he used the darkside as a tool to protect the galaxy.



I suppose the special precognition ability of Revan's (being able to see Windu's attacks before he makes it) would not come to his benefit. I see Revan at least Windu's equivalent here.

Proove first that Windu would be able to block Revan's force storm (which he was just barely able to do to Sidious', as a moment of distraction equalled him out the window), then prove that he would have any signifcant advantage with his "Vaapad" against Revan's superiour precognition.

Originally posted by zephiel7
I love how you are ignore the fact that Revan did tie the second best duelist of his time while the said duelist was amplified with the power of the star forge.Also I suppose demonstrating the ability of calling down lightning from the sky (which makes ROTS Sidious' lightning look pretty pussy) is not enough. Let's ignore facts if you will.




Do I smell anti Revan bias here?

I suppose you forgot the fact that stopping a landslide is purely force telekenisis, which several force users have demonstrated before. Really, this point is moot once Yoda stated that "size matters not."



Alright using force crush on Grievous, a robot that did not EVEN have the force to defend himself.



Firstly, simply stating that Windu can "crash" landspeeders means jack shit considering that Grievous was devoid of the force. How do you know that he could pull the same stunt on Revan, given the said DLOTS exception ability with the force.

Can Mace deflect force lightning? Sure, but just barely. Was Revan's lightning stronger than ROTS Sidious', well you would have to be a fool to argue otherwise. DE Sidious' force storm was much like Revan's (admitedly much more powerful), they did not originate from wielders fingertips.



Choosing to spit at evidence, and continue with your biased view I see.



What the hell is this? Was Vodo's great wisdom enough to save him from being PWNT QED by Exar Kun?

For the record, Revan was probably incredibly wise. He used forthought in his actions, as he did not believe in destroying the republic infrastructure. In fact many would argue that he was wise enough to never be corrupted by the dark side. It was believed that he used the darkside as a tool to protect the galaxy.



I suppose the special precognition ability of Revan's (being able to see Windu's attacks before he makes it) would not come to his benefit. I see Revan at least Windu's equivalent here.

Proove first that Windu would be able to block Revan's force storm (which he was just barely able to do to Sidious', as a moment of distraction equalled him out the window), then prove that he would have any signifcant advantage with his "Vaapad" against Revan's superiour precognition.

Indeed. Think of Revan as a powerful Jedi/Sith with the mind of or almost coming close to, Thrawn.

Kyle or Mace kills Obi-Wan rather easily. Then Kyle and Mace team to kill Revan.

Or it could be the other way around. Revan kills Mace and then Obi and Revan team up and destroy Kyle.

Nope because Oafy Wan is dying first.

That's a ridiculous assumption. Obi-Wan's Soresu is a defensive form, and it prolongs duels. By this time, Revan would be done with someone.

Obiwan WAS described as impenetrable as soon as he switched to Soresu, and lone loss came to Dooku. However, Mace has his shatterpoint ability which may prove too much for Obiwan, and by NJO, Kyle has already surpassed the likes of ROTS Sidious and DOoku in saber combat.

So what? Just because he has shatterpoint doesn't mean Obi-Wan will die in a minute. It won't be as long as the Anakin vs. Obi-Wan duel but perhaps a quarter of it (2 minutes). By then, Revan should finish Kyle off.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Malak was the second most powerful jedi in an order of thousands,


Unsupported assumption. We know that some Jedi did cut his jaw off after he became Revan's apprentice. So obviously he was not the second most powerful Jedi in that time.



Considering what ****heads all other Sith were (yeah what...an army of them wasn't able to plunder the tombs on Korriban, something that Revan did on his own...) I don't see where that is impressive.



Excuse me: No. First Malak just stored the lifeforce of this already dead Jedi with the help of the Star Forge. Then he just used this lifeforce to "heal" himself. Aside of this it's possible to destroy all the Jedi when Malak has drained the first one. So Revan had to beat down Malak twice. And due to the fact that the game gives you tons of stuff to power yourself up (artifacts, stamina, health packs etc.) even that doesn't mean much.



See above...
And due to this little facts Malak = Dooku and Revan might be slightly above them given that their lightsaber fight was descriped as "epic" (so rather close). Yet that would put Revan in one league with Mace.

The weak link in this fight is Obi-Wan (given that Kyle in the NJO series is the foremost battlemaster of the Jedi Order, meaning the second best duellist with the exception of Luke). Hence Revan and Obi-Wan are going to lose here since both Kyle and Mace are able to keep Revan busy until the other one has finished Obi-Wan. Then Revan gets tooled pretty much...

Nai you are forgetting that Revan beat a STAR FORGE powered Malak, not just Malak. I can't quantify his power with the SF but zephiel provided an idea of just how powerful you have to be to control the SF.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Nai you are forgetting that Revan beat a STAR FORGE powered Malak, not just Malak. I can't quantify his power with the SF but zephiel provided an idea of just how powerful you have to be to control the SF.
You're forgetting Revan was Star Forge powered too so...

'Unsupported assumption. We know that some Jedi did cut his jaw off after he became Revan's apprentice. So obviously he was not the second most powerful Jedi in that time.'

It was most likely Revan, they did fight each other once they turned to the dark side.

Originally posted by Blue_Hefner
You're forgetting Revan was Star Forge powered too so...


How was Revan SF powered? It's a tool of the darkside, by the time Revan fought Malak he was a Jedi, so no he wasn't powered.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
How was Revan SF powered? It's a tool of the darkside, by the time Revan fought Malak he was a Jedi, so no he wasn't powered.
He could use those jedi too so it doesn't if he was LS or DS, and because someone is a Jedi it doesn't mean they can't use the darkside; i.e. Kyle Katarn, Mace Windu, Plo Koon,Luke Skywalker.

Alll Obi-Wan needs to do is survive long enough for Revan to kill someone. However, even if Obi-Wan dies, Revan will still manage to kill someone and then take on someone else. Anyway:

If Obi-Wan dies, Revan gets killed (however he might take someone with him)

If Kyle or Mace die, Revan and Obi-Wan pawn the survivor.

Plo Koon can do Electric Judgement. Kyle Katarn is a Gray Jedi. Mace can do Force Crush and Vapaad.

While they do do some ds moves, they dont do Force Drain.

Revan is a lightsider, he cannot do Force Drain.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Nai you are forgetting that Revan beat a STAR FORGE powered Malak, not just Malak. I can't quantify his power with the SF but zephiel provided an idea of just how powerful you have to be to control the SF.

Obviously you want to argue against facts, huh ? The Star Forge was powered up by Malak's power (see the little scene were he talks about how efficient the SF is working under him) and not vice versa.



Yes, because Revan totally qualifies as "Jedi" when they were both using the Dark Side, correct ?



Revan is clearly not even able to take one of the enemy team down on his own. Much less in a time that the other will need to strike down Obi-Wan. Dooku freaking TOOLED him in less than a minute.

Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
Kyle Katarn is a Gray Jedi.



funny, I did not think you could be a gray jedi and still be a Jedi Master because gray jedi are exiled.

In AOTC, he gets tooled because he didn't master Soresu.

IN ROTS, he gets tooled because he was using offensive attacks, plus he had to fight with the Anakin's Djem So (the polar opposite form), which takes up a lot of room. If it was one on one, Obi-Wan would have lost, but he certainly wouldn't be tooled.

No, Kyle believes in the Gray philosophy of the Force.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Obviously you want to argue against facts, huh ? The Star Forge was powered up by Malak's power (see the little scene were he talks about how efficient the SF is working under him) and not vice versa.

Arguing against facts huh? I guess you missed the part where the SF is being described as a tool of the darkside, that you must be very powerful in the darkside to control it, and that so far anyone who's tried to control the SF has been destroyed. The star forge made Malak more powerful, so where am I arguing with facts?



Yes, because Revan totally qualifies as "Jedi" when they were both using the Dark Side, correct ?

Uh yea, the canon light side ending has Revan as a Jedi defeating a star forge powered Malak. So I ask you, when were they both using the dark side? Unless of course you yourself consider gameplay canon..

Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
No, Kyle believes in the Gray philosophy of the Force.
So do Palpatine, Luke, Jacen, and Kreia.

Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
In AOTC, he gets tooled because he didn't master Soresu.

IN ROTS, he gets tooled because he was using offensive attacks, plus he had to fight with the Anakin's Djem So (the polar opposite form), which takes up a lot of room. If it was one on one, Obi-Wan would have lost, but he certainly wouldn't be tooled.

Yes. Because Mace and Kyle would never dare to use offensive force powers against Obi-Wan or at all, correct ? Oh wait...there is the fact that Mace force crushed Grievous and - in the Dark Side ending of Jedi Academy, Kyle force pushes Jaden across the room.

@Sexy:


Are you really that blind. If you need to be powerful in order to control the SF than obviously it wouldn't give you power but instead weaken you because you have to keep it under control. And it's never stated that the SF increases the power of anybody. Just that it's a powerful artifact of the Dark Side.



Nice way to ignore the point, idiot. Malak's jaw was cut off by a Jedi. The jaw was already removed when Revan did fight him, and in their first fight, Revan wasn't a Jedi. So obviously it was not Revan who did it.

People shouldn't bring out the Dark vs. Light ending for Revan, he may have been Lightside Canon by the Star Wars RP, but it's technically up to the Player, unless you address both sides in a way like....

Dark Side Revan beats/loses vs. him
Lightside Revan beats/loses vs. him

you shouldn't pull that

Revan was described as The HEART of the Force, the person would have to be pretty damn powerful to have that title. The Starforge needs someone of great power in order for it to be used, or they're "consumed" as stated by a Sith Holocron of Bastila in KoToR 2 should you choose Revan as Dark Male. Malak may have been an idiot, but he was Powerful.


Revan > Mace/Kyle
Obi-Wan < Mace

Bullshit. Malak references Revan as being 'stupid' because he did not understand the true power of the darkise (which was to empower any force user strong enough to use it). Other Sith Lords were mentioned trying to use said battle station, but were obliterated by its power.





Right, and tell me why would Darth Revan not be able to take down Mace. Mace was barely able to defend against ROTS Sidious' force lightning, so please, explain how he can withstand Revan's force abilities which were described as lightning arching from the sky (not the wielders fingertips). This resembles a force storm.


Also describe how Mace has a significant advantage with his Vaapad, considering Revan's Echani precognition (being able to perceive the melee attacks made by an opponent before they actually do it).



Oh wow. Obi Wan "greatest Soresu master of the PT" Kenobi cannot strategically prolong a duel so that help can arrive to his side? Dooku threw Kenobi around because Kenobi was using an offensive stance, which was clearly not his area of expertise.

Show how Mace can delfect Revan's superiour lightning. Explain how is Vaapad can defeat Revan's superiour precognition.

How I see it, Revan defeats Mace, and meanwhile, Katarn is pushing Obi Wan around. Afterwards Revan would come to Kenobi's side and take down Katarn.

Originally posted by Borbarad
Nice way to ignore the point, idiot. Malak's jaw was cut off by a Jedi. The jaw was already removed when Revan did fight him, and in their first fight, Revan wasn't a Jedi. So obviously it was not Revan who did it.


Hey dumbshit, I never stated Revan was the one who cut off the jaw of Malak. Learn to use reading comprehension. By your post you seemed like you were referring to Revan and Malak's epic duel in which you claim Revan used the dark side. Obviously if this is the case, I suggest that you replay the game before making moronic posts and insults towards me.

A question Zephiel...

Soresu or not, how would Obi-Wan's force defence depend on what kind of sword style he uses? He was not taken down by Dooku's swordsmanship, but his force mastery. And the novelisation says Obi-Wan's Soresu use was to much for Dooku to break through quickly in a duel, so he relied on the force instead. That means Obi did use Soresu...


And Revan's lightning is superior to who's???

'Are you really that blind. If you need to be powerful in order to control the SF than obviously it wouldn't give you power but instead weaken you because you have to keep it under control. And it's never stated that the SF increases the power of anybody. Just that it's a powerful artifact of the Dark Side.'

Malak states that Revan would have perhaps become invincible if he had learnt to harness the full power of the SF, so it clearly does power up the user who is controlling it.

arguing against facts....Not good.

Revan vs. Threads are dangerous, shouldn't use the Exile either, or any of the KoToR PCs for that matter, maybe a few exceptions

Why not though? We know more about them than pretty much every TOTJ character.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
*Single handedly defeated a seismic tank on Dantooine.
*Only ever beaten by Yoda and Dooku.
*Beat Greivous in lightsaber combat.
*Outclassed Asajj in combat, even when she used her double bladed lightsaber.
*Shatterpoint.
*Vaapad.
*Easily outclassed Quinlain Vos in combat.
*Left Sora Bulq in a pile of debris.
*Said to be on par with Yoda (he isn't as good, but he sure is close).
*Survived Geonosis (and the rest of the Clone Wars).
*Killed Jango Fett.
*Beat Sidious in lightsaber combat and was able to hold off his lightning for a good time.
*Has used force crush and other direct assaults with the force.

There are those and many more.
Revan was able to (sneak his way through the Star Forge?, and) beat Malak after an "Epic duel."(Suggesting that it was close).

Okay, using those facts, give facts as to why Revan has a chance against Mace. Things that can be put in comparison. Things that we can accurately base his power on.

Shatterpoint vs. Echani precognition.

Every Jedi can predict attacks. Revan can just see into the future, I never thought it was much of a factor in personal combat, just as a strategist.

Revan was stated to posses the ability on a higher level than Echani war masters who could predict the outcomes of war.

And that helps him not get his ass kicked by Mace... how?

Better reflexes.

Mace has:

Originally posted by jollyjim311
*Single handedly defeated a seismic tank on Dantooine.
*Only ever beaten by Yoda and Dooku.
*Beat Greivous in lightsaber combat.
*Outclassed Asajj in combat, even when she used her double bladed lightsaber.
*Shatterpoint.
*Vaapad.
*Easily outclassed Quinlain Vos in combat.
*Left Sora Bulq in a pile of debris.
*Said to be on par with Yoda (he isn't as good, but he sure is close).
*Survived Geonosis (and the rest of the Clone Wars).
*Killed Jango Fett.
*Beat Sidious in lightsaber combat and was able to hold off his lightning for a good time.
*Has used force crush and other direct assaults with the force.

There are those and many more.
Revan was able to (sneak his way through the Star Forge?, and) beat Malak after an "Epic duel."(Suggesting that it was close).

and you're saying the better reflexes will win Revan the match?

Nope, I was just stating that his incredible Echani precognition would be a plus for Revan.

Well, it's not enough to beat Kyle or Mace.

At least that's what you think

darth reven lead a jedi cival war he has lots of experiance killing hundreds in the war and leaving a track so powerful that the exile could track him

i pretty much think reven could beat mace or kyle not both at same time maybe because reven and makal were in the jedi civil war as teh leaders and after that it lft the repuplic and the jedi shattered and destroyed the council after mastering the sith ways

You mean in the Kinrath Cave on Dantooine?

Originally posted by yettoh
i pretty much think reven could beat mace or kyle not both at same time maybe because reven and makal were in the jedi civil war as teh leaders and after that it lft the repuplic and the jedi shattered and destroyed the council after mastering the sith ways

They can't recruit an army in a versus match...

Yay for selective quoting.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Well, it's not enough to beat Kyle or Mace.

THat's called an unsupported assumption

Originally posted by zephiel7
Bullshit. Malak references Revan as being 'stupid' because he did not understand the true power of the darkise (which was to empower any force user strong enough to use it). Other Sith Lords were mentioned trying to use said battle station, but were obliterated by its power.


Lmao. Again: It requires some considerable amount of power to use the SF but it's never said that it does give power to anybody.



Unsupported assumptions much ? Mace was the second most powerful Jedi in the PT order and aside of this a lightsaber prodigy. In the same manner I could ask you what Revan would do against a force crush coming from Mace. Drop down dead ?
And it doesn't resemble a force storm unless Revan did "ravage space-time itself" - not that this couldn't be anything that the premitive people there possibly spotted (starship turbolaser fire and so on). The only thing that is said is that Revan did "call lightning from the sky" that did "kill one of their scouting parties". Sidious before ROTJ fried an battalion of Stormtroopers with force lightning. So what ?



Read Shatterpoint. And Revan doesn't have Echani precognition - his Jedi precognition is just superior to the Echani precog. Of course you can argue that Mace doesn't have Jedi precognition but I would call that stupid. And Mace does have his shatterpoint ability...



More unsupported assumptions please. Dooku took Obi-Wan down because Dooku was the superior force user. Want to compare Obi-Wan "almost singled out from the order because of a lack of force potential" Kenobi to Kyle "force and lightsaber prodigy equipped with some part of the power of the Valley of the Jedi" Katarn now who was able to take down an entire Imperial Base without using his force powers between MotS and JK II ? Nice try.



Proof to me that Revan has superior lightning (compared to Sidious) or superior precognition (compared to Mace). You can't, you lose.



Yes. Revan will surely defeat a force and lightsaber prodigy with more than 4 decades of training and 2 years of battle experience who was legendary enough to make people RUN by just hinting he might draw his lightsaber in the next seconds.
Then Kenobi does just have to last long enough against the foremost battlemaster of the NJO, trained mercenary, force and lightsaber prodigy to enable Revan to pull something off that he maybe even can't do.

What was it exactly that stops Kyle from force pushing Kenobi into the next wall and then help Mace with destroying Revan ?

'Lmao. Again: It requires some considerable amount of power to use the SF but it's never said that it does give power to anybody.'

Malak states that Revan would have perhaps become invincible if he had learnt to harness the full power of the SF, so it clearly does power up the user who is controlling it.

Now if we take Malak's word for it (why not? Malak would have no reaosn to lie and he would have had a reliably and realistic indication of the power of th SF), Revan was either close to invincible, or the SF powers up the user controlling it by a phenomenal amount. Either way, it's a plus for Revan.

WTF, Kenobi will get up? Wow, a Force Push can kill/lose conscious of one of the Jedi Order's greatest warriors




What can Mace Windu do against Revan's lightning or his Stun? Drop down unconscious or dead?




Yeah, Sidious is using Force lightning, while Revan is using Force storm, an upgraded version.




Wow, Revan has Force Valor, he won't be scared. And this is Revan, who defeated the Mandalorians, became Dark Lord of the Sith, almost unlocked the true power of the Star Forge, returned as a Jedi and was at the padawan level when he went on to defeat Malak and his whole Sith Empire. The whole Sith empire feared him.



Then Kyle just has to last long enough against one of the greatest Soresu users, who faced off and gave a Sith Lord a run for is a money as a padawan, who fought and would have defeat one of the galaxy's most feared bounty hunters, High General and battleworthy Jedi during the Clone Wars, slayer of General Grievous, survived against Darth Vader and defeated him, killed a cybernetic Darth maul, and much more.

Wow, I actually feel sorry for Katarn.

Yeah, and I think a Force Push at Kyle will take him out as well.




In the game, Stun is lightside power and Revan, as we know, is canocally a lightsider.



WTF, the Rakatans are not stupid. They'll probably have written records. And they are not primitive if they made the Star Forge



In the game, Valor is a lightside power and Revan, as we know, is canocally a lightsider.

And did I ever say Kyle is going to lose against Kenobi. No, I am saying Kenobi is going to survive long enough for Revan to come to his rescue.



Bring it on!!! I'll be calling my lawyer!

That would be incorrect. Malak stated that Revan was 'stupid' for not realizing the true power of the star forge'. It strengthened the said force user's abilities in the force, so long as they do not die in the process (much of what happened to the Sith Masters according to Bastilla's holocron)





If Mace was as powerful as you give him credit for, then why did he not just reflect the lightning back at Sidious? Considering Revan's feats with force lightning was described as being far greater, Mace is out of luck. He could BARELY hold back Sidious' lightning, explain how he would not be fried by Revans?



Excuse me, but you seem to forget the only opponent Mace has demonstrated a successful crush against was Grievous. That's right, a machine that could not even defend himself against the force, wait a go Windu



I told you that it was a toned down version of Sidious' force storm; wait a go Nai, putting words in my mouth. Again, it was not like Sidious' lightning, because it did not come from Revan's fingertips period It came from the sky. Again argue with Bioware if you have a problem with Revan using something greater than force lightning.

And is it "pull numbers out of my ass" day? Where the hell does it state he killed one scouting party. Reading comprehension much?



Force lightning still, nothing much. Revan's was described as being so great that it was described as arching from the sky (which was impossible given that the Rakatan technology did not permit any starships to work in it's atmosphere)




Spitting at facts. Revan does have echani precognition, indicated in conversation with Jedi Handmaiden. It was described as a technique that was rarely possessed. It was also described as allowing someone to perceive the attacks of someone before they made it.





LOL, you clearly were not reading any of my posts properly. I said that Obi Wan would prolong the duel, not that he would win. Argue that a Soresu master of that calibur fully focused on defense would not strategically be able to prolong a duel. Please.





Lets see, the lightning that he used was described of greater magnitude than Sidious'. These are the same Rakatan witnesses who have seen lightning before, (from the ancients who retained their technology), and as such remain valid witnesses.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Lets see, the lightning that he used was described of greater magnitude than Sidious'. These are the same Rakatan witnesses who have seen lightning before, (from the ancients who retained their technology), and as such remain valid witnesses.

Quote, and source.

'And they, indeed, haven't seen magic in a millenia, unless you prove they've seen powers like Force lightning before, then they really aren't qualified.'

Well they did go to war with the anicent sith - Evil Never Dies: The Sith Dynasties (intro - http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=323861&perpage=20&highlight=&pagenumber=69).

This is why we can't use KoToR+ Revan, his Powers are Unknown, his Canon Lightside Ending is only used for the Star Wars RP, since this has no effect on the Movies. Neither side can prove their point

On the Force Storm issue, the Knights of the Old Republic-era Force Storms were highly inferior to Palpatine's. A potent Force Storm from Revan's era could only kill multiple enemies (whereas Sidious was capable of emitting your standard Force lightning to obliterate multiple foes), whereas Palpatine's Force Storm could obliterate massive fleets.

So, Sidious's Force Storm > > > > > > > > > > > > > Revan's. And this is being generous.

On the issue of the Star Forge:

a. Has it ever occured to you that Malak was simply referring to the tactical and military might of the Star Forge? Given Revan's tactical genius, Malak could be meaning that Revan would have been invincible if it were in his hands - as a potent starfleet factor.

b. You have yet to show a single case where Malak was empowered by the Star Forge. And, considering how he was forced to drain the energies of the individuals in stasis - it leads me to believe otherwise.

'On the Force Storm issue, the Knights of the Old Republic-era Force Storms were highly inferior to Palpatine's.'

It's not so much that they were inferior, they were just different attacks, period. At least that's the impression I got.

'Has it ever occurred to you that Malak was simply referring to the tactical and military might of the Star Forge? Given Revan's tactical genius, Malak could be meaning that Revan would have been invincible if it were in his hands - as a potent starfleet factor.'

It's been a while since I've played KotOR, so I may be a bit rusty on the plotline, but IIRC Revan could already control the SF in that way (mass produce ships) before when he was DL, and Malak states that if he had learnt to fully control the SF, perhaps he would have become invincible implying that it was an aspect of the SF that Revan hadn't discovered as DL, meaning that it can't have been that aspect of the SF - Malak also states that the true power of the SF was to use the SF to make him stronger IIRC.

'You have yet to show a single case where Malak was empowered by the Star Forge. And, considering how he was forced to drain the energies of the individuals in stasis - it leads me to believe otherwise.'

If you mean that the SF was making him weaker so he was forced to drain the life of the jedi to stay alive (at least that's what I think you mean), I'm pretty sure that he drained the jedi not because he needed to, but so as to make him stronger as Revan was proving to be too difficult an opponent.

When did Revan get this Force Storm because the last time I checked, lightsiders don't use force lightning. And just because you can pick force storm as a power in KOTOR, it doesn't mean Revan could use it.

People are actually arguing that he might have known it before KotOR when he was DL, and seeing as this is post KotOR, he would surely regain it once he regained his memories.

However it's more likely that he just used telekenesis to pull lightning out of the sky, like Kyp Durron did in Leviathan.

Well the force storm is actually regular force lightning just with more bolts, and it arches over.I don't get where some of you are getting "summoning it from the sky" stuff. If you notice in KOTOR, there's no sky to summon from the sky on Mannan without killing yourself or even getting it through the building. Unless you're telling me lightning can travel through non-conductors.

Originally posted by zephiel7
That would be incorrect. Malak stated that Revan was 'stupid' for not realizing the true power of the star forge'. It strengthened the said force user's abilities in the force, so long as they do not die in the process (much of what happened to the Sith Masters according to Bastilla's holocron)


He was talking about the production of starships which is clearly the case given that he talks about "effiency" of the Star Forge before. There is not a single line in KotoR saying that the SF boosts up somebodies force powers.



First: What makes you think Mace couldn't have done this with his bare hands ? Dooku could do this as we have seen in AotC.

Second: The ability that Revan used (if he did so) was the "force storm" of the KotoR era which is actually insignificant to the power of Sidious force lightning - much more to Sidious force storm.

Three: For this stuff making sense you would have to assume that Revan > Sidious in terms of Dark Side force powers. How many sources do you want that crush this little premise ?



The same way Revan only demonstrated his uber powerful "force storm" against people who couldn't defend themselves against it, due to the fact that they weren't able to use the force any longer. Somebody pwned his own argument...



You mean like the lightning that Kyp Durron called fromt he sky in the "Leviathan" comics using some weather manipulation ? Wow...
And it's not a "toned down version of Sidious' force storm" it's an extend of the "force lightning" ability and has precisely nothing in common with Sidious force storms.

And I don't have to argue with Bioware because this is how their own game mechanics work. Force storm = higher level force lightning. And sorry: It comes from the users hands (at least in the animation), goes up and then hits the targets on the ground.



Reading comprehension ? Obviously lack of logic on your side. Why would multiple scouting parties move together so that Revan can own them all at once. Oh my...that's what scouting parties usually don't do.



See above.



I guess the Jedi Exile possessed it too because being able to tool the Handmaiden and her sisters...
Jedi Precognition > Echani precognition. Just look at the fact that Kreia did forsee things happening 4,000 years later. So what need would Revan have to use echani precog if he has Jedi precog and how is this gonna help him against somebody who has precognition as well ? Logic anybody ?



I guess you didn't again get the point, huh ? Dooku was superior in the force, hence able to choke Kenobi and then toss him through the room, taking him out of the fight. What would stop Kyle or Mace from doing the same (or use a force push / other force skills) against Kenobi. Hence his "prolonging the fight with Soresu" attempts will be quite mood if he ends up in the next wall force pushed, chocked or something else by his opponent.



Let's see: You are making stuff up to back up your attempts to construct an argument failing utterly because you obviously know jack shit about the things you want to discuss. And I doubt that the Rakatan that did encounter Revan did personally witness fights happening 3,000 years in the past...

'He was talking about the production of starships which is clearly the case given that he talks about "effiency" of the Star Forge before. There is not a single line in KotoR saying that the SF boosts up somebodies force powers.'

This is clearly not the case as Revan already had discovered this function when he was previously DL, and Malak is clearly talking about something that Revan never discovered as DL. It wasn't the starsip production.

Originally posted by Sith'ari
This is clearly not the case as Revan already had discovered this function when he was previously DL, and Malak is clearly talking about something that Revan never discovered as DL. It wasn't the starsip production.

Oh my...
Malak stated that he is operating the SF more efficient than Revan. What do they do with the SF ? What is the only thing they do with the SF ? Producing starships

And obviously he can't compare himself to Revan when he was refering to something that Revan never did or - even less - when talking about force powers.

So what ? He was talking about his ability to produce ship with the Star Forge who did exceed that what Revan did with the SF. And that's it...

I'm not sure if I'm too tired or something, but I don't really get your point.

Originally posted by Sith'ari
I'm not sure if I'm too tired or something, but I don't really get your point.

The entire point is that Revan only used the SF to produce ships for his military actions against the Republic. So obviously, when Malak said that Revan would have become invincible if he had figured out how to use the entire power of the SF - he was talking about the fact that with more ships (a greater fleet) the Republic wouldn't have had any chance to stop Revan.

Notice how Revan and the officer are talking about the production abilities of the SF before.

So pleeeeeaaaaseee tell me why Malak should suddenly talk about Revan using the SF to boost his force powers (something that the SF can't even do - it's a damn production facility powered by the Dark Side) considering that:

1) Revan did next to nothing with his actual force powers.
2) They were talking about ship production before.
3) He was comparing himself to Revan which would make no sense if he was talking about something Revan never did with the SF.

So what ?

Originally posted by Borbarad
The entire point is that Revan only used the SF to produce ships for his military actions against the Republic. So obviously, when Malak said that Revan would have become invincible if he had figured out how to use the entire power of the SF - he was talking about the fact that with more ships (a greater fleet) the Republic wouldn't have had any chance to stop Revan.

Notice how Revan and the officer are talking about the production abilities of the SF before.

So pleeeeeaaaaseee tell me why Malak should suddenly talk about Revan using the SF to boost his force powers (something that the SF can't even do - it's a damn production facility powered by the Dark Side) considering that:

1) Revan did next to nothing with his actual force powers.
2) They were talking about ship production before.
3) He was comparing himself to Revan which would make no sense if he was talking about something Revan never did with the SF.

So what ?

Wait a second. Why would Malak tell Revan that he would be invincible in terms of having a fleet? Wouldn't that make Malak also invincible, except that he wasn't? What would Revan do that would make him invincible, that Malak wouldn't do, considering they're talking about the SF producing the fleet(your words)? It seems like Malak is pointing to the fact that with the dark side power of the SF, Revan would be invincible.

'The entire point is that Revan only used the SF to produce ships for his military actions against the Republic. So obviously, when Malak said that Revan would have become invincible if he had figured out how to use the entire power of the SF - he was talking about the fact that with more ships (a greater fleet) the Republic wouldn't have had any chance to stop Revan.'

Well you see, Malak states that if perhaps Revan had learnt not the entire power but the true power of the SF, - a different function all together.

The setting is a flat hard surface. And even if there were walls that would sandwhich Obi-Wan Kenobi like in ROTS, what would stop Revan from lifting it up? Let me guess what you're going to say, he's too immersed in his duel with Kyle or Mace. Whatever.

Next, how long will it take Revan to kill Mace?
Probably 4 minutes.

Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
The setting is a flat hard surface. And even if there were walls that would sandwhich Obi-Wan Kenobi like in ROTS, what would stop Revan from lifting it up?

What would it even matter? Kenobi would be unconscious. He's never been known for having great Force usage. In terms of Force power, Kyle > Obi-Wan. The same thing happened with Dooku and Obi-Wan. Dooku is quite simply just better in terms of Force knowledge and mastery, hence he was able to remove Kenobi from the duel with ease. And do tell, how can Revan be lifting up things. . .



. . .when he's busy dealing with Mace? First off, if Revan tried to "lift up" anything (not that'd it help, because he'd already be down) he'd have to break concentration. And there's no way in hell Kenobi is going to last that long when he was tooled by a superior Force user so easily.

Secondly, Kenobi only clashed sabers with Dooku for a solid 20 seconds at most (some nanoseconds, I'm sure, lol) before getting tooled. First, he was Force pushed in battle at the 18 second mark. And took out some droids, etc., etc. and when he engaged Dooku the second time - he only brought down one swing (two seconds), and was then lifted into the air and simply owned.

Kyle is definitely the superior lightsaber user, and he's the superior Force user. So, what're trying to say? If you have doubts of Kyle abilities, read my quotes.

And for anyone who wants to bring in "l0l ob1 was us1n6 at4ru" from the novel - true, he was using Ataru for a bit until he switched to Soresu to trick Dooku, much like Anakin had. But again, that was only in the very beginning. Not like it matters because he was curbstomped by the Force.

As for your actual response, I'll have to say: "yes".



I object on grounds of simply "bullshit". Four minutes my ass. For either victor in the case of Mace v. Revan, it'll take awhile.

What you say might be right, but I think you're underestimating Obi-Wan Kenobi. I think he'll last at least 2 minutes against whoever. But then again, that's my theory.

Well, interesting theory. I mean, sure he'll last two minutes against "whoever", aside from only engaging Dooku for 20 solid seconds before getting his ass incapitated, and tooled with apparent ease.

Which is as I stated before, bullshit. Revan already knew how to use that function of the Star Forge. The second function is to strengthen a powerful dark side user with force energy, which Malak reveals.



Because he has not shown this ability, and neither has he shown sufficient strength in the force as to pull off the same feat that Yoda did.

Really, he was barely able to block Sidious' lightning. Again I am waiting for proof that he can deflect Revan's "miniature storm" (which was described as being far greater)



Unvalidated, and an utterly false assumption. Revan's storm was not described as something coming from his fingertips, then going towards the sky and crashing down on the Rakatans. It was actually described as coming from the sky. It appeared as multiple bolts of lightnigng that appeared from the sky to slaughter "raiding/scouting" parties. In the Star Wars films (highest authority) Sidious' lightning was not shown to be anywhere near this magnitude.



Revan is stronger than ROTS Sidious, but not his DE incarnation. Do not intentionally be vague.




Only as much as you do not possess the faculties for logical thought. Revan's lightning was described visually as far superiour than Sidious'. If you look at the movie (the highest authority for Star Wars, Sidious' lightning was comparitevely pussy). Revan's was described as something far larger in magnitude.





Of course, because a single bolt of lightning can defeat multiple opponents (from the scouting parties). Obviously there were multiple bolts which indicate something of a storm like nature. Revan's manifestation was clearly different than Kyp's.



Other than the fact that it is far greater in magnitude then typical force lightning, and that it does not originate from the said users fingetips, which you have yet to prove it does.



Oh right, assumptions galore. You assume that the technique used by Darth Revan in his peak was the same one as described in KOTOR where Revan has not yet fully recovered his memory(and is consequently not as strong), despite being told by the Rakatans that the force lightning came from the sky. Since the threadmaker has stated that it is Post Star Forge Revan, (Revan in outer regions) then he has fully regained his memory. Get it through your skull that it did not come from his fingertips, arch slightly upwards, and towards the Rakatans.




If you would like to discuss Rakatan psychology with me, and how these bloodthirsty idiots could potentially turn on Revan in the DS side, then be my guest. It is possible the "One" could have continually sent raiding parties, each of which were slaughtered. He referred to Revans attacks as "slaughtering us".

Regardless in either case scenario, it does not dimish the nature of the attack.





Wow, more assumptions. You assume first that the two types of precognition work exclusive of each other, when in KOTOR2 the two types of precognition are actually shown to be synergistic of one another. Your point is moot.






Um, I guess you missed my point that Obi Wan was using the force agressively, and using an agressive lightsaber stance, hence he got pwned. If he used his defensive techniques fully, then obviously he can prolong the fight for Revan to arrive.




Speak for yourself, you are pulling wild assumptions about Revan's abilites out of your ass in order to support your meager points.

Zephiel, Palpatine was able to use standard Force lightning to kill more people than Revan's version of the Force Storm. Furthermore, Sidious improved in power from Revenge of the Sith to Return of the Jedi, which is about the time that he slaughtered that battalion of renegade stormtroopers.

Also:

a. I would like to see proof where it specifically states that the Star Forge increases Force power and not personal and/or military power.

b. Where is Revan's Force Storm described as being more powerful than Palpatine's lightning?

c. Palpatine's Force Storm and Revan's Force Storm are two completely different things. Revan's Force Storm was simply a variation of your standard Force lightning (which was also proven to be less effective than Palpatine's own) and it is a far cry from being anywhere near as powerful as Palpatine's.

Zephiel, I proved on another forum that Sidious' DE force storm has a destructive potential of at least 24 million Hiroshima nuclear bombs. That's a lot more then anything we've seen from Revan.

Anyway, Mace fight's off Revan for a good long time while Kyle kills Obi-wan. Getting doubled teamed Revan goes down.

Originally posted by Escape81
Zephiel, Palpatine was able to use standard Force lightning to kill more people than Revan's version of the Force Storm. Furthermore, Sidious improved in power from Revenge of the Sith to Return of the Jedi, which is about the time that he slaughtered that battalion of renegade stormtroopers.

You have proof of this? You have proof that Sidious' force lightning kiled more people than Revan's miniature force storm? You mean that same force lightning that floored Luke? The same lightning he kept firing at Luke without killing him? I have a hard time believing Sidious' force lightning is more powerful than Revan's miniature force storm which obviously attacks at least multiple opponents..


b. Where is Revan's Force Storm described as being more powerful than Palpatine's lightning?
Iunno logical deduction? Palpatine's lighting comes from his fingertips directory at his opponent whereas Revan's lightning goes up and hits many of his opponents at the same time. Just by looking at the two and comparing them, Revan's lightning seems more powerful than Palpatine's.

c. Palpatine's Force Storm and Revan's Force Storm are two completely different things. Revan's Force Storm was simply a variation of your standard Force lightning (which was also proven to be less effective than Palpatine's own) and it is a far cry from being anywhere near as powerful as Palpatine's.

Again WHERE is it proven that Sidious' lightning>Revan's? If anything by the looks of it we can argue the complete opposite.

DS, read carefully. Palpatine killed dozens of Stormtroopers with a single Force lightning attack. Furthermore, Palpatine was only torturing Luke. Not wanting him to die immediately.



Palpatine's lightning has also mortally wounded Jedi in single bursts. His most lethal form of lightning has obliterated multiple opponents.



See above.

I guess you missed my "greater then 24 million Hiroshima nuclear bombs" statement. Darth Sexy.

a. Palpatine killed dozens of Stormtroopers prior to Return of the Jedi with a single burst.

b. Palpatine, in Return of the Jedi, was torturing Luke. Not killing him. He was still torturing Luke when he said "Now, young Skywalker... you will die."



The point is, I haven't seen an instance where Revan's Force Storm kills dozens of anything. And even if he did, it means that Palpatine's standard Force lightning is as powerful as Revan's Force Storm.



See the above.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
I guess you missed my "greater then 24 million Hiroshima nuclear bombs" statement. Darth Sexy.

Not that I'm denying that Sidious' FS was incredible, but didn't Janus disprove your theory?

Read the Betrayal series (I think) part 3 of 4. Sidious lightning > anything displayed in that game.

Not that I'm denying that Sidious' FS was incredible, but didn't Janus disprove your theory?

No, he did not.

imo, he did.

What did he say that did?

The Betrayal series talks about Sidious' lightning? And escape, where did Sidious kill all those storm troopers? Not saying he didn't but I'm curous where. Also, that is enough to put Sidious' lightning>Revan's or equal to? In regards to the comparison, from what I see, Revan's miniature force storm seems to take out any opponent you are currently fighting. Then again that is gameplay, but I don't feel there's enough evidence to compare the two, ESPECIALLY put Sidious' lightning over Revan's. Yoda must be a God then if he can absorb it or deflect it.

Darth Sexy is having a wonderful time.

Am I? Am I really?

Oh yeah.

Uh huh baaaabyy

Zephiel is NOT having a wonderful time.

obi wans has a defensive stance and he could hold of mace or kyle with it think of obi ani battle and reven lead the war he killed many on his own and obi wan can beat mace because ani can kill him even if they did have a fight even though mace has shatterpoint soresu can hold that off reven could kill kyle in that time

Originally posted by yettoh
obi wans has a defensive stance

And? Yes, he uses Soresu. Please, if you will turn your head to Defense Exhibit A:

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/8115/obigetspwnedxh9.gif

Just a reminder for the court.



1.) When I think of the Obi-Wan and Anakin duel, I think of Anakin beating the shit out of Obi-Wan, and resorting to tactics like lava skating, platform jumping, and plainly running away. He only won because he "has the high ground", and Anakin was clouded by the Darkside completely.

2.) By this logic, Obi-Wan should be able to hold off Count Dooku because Anakin killed him. But, guess what? He only lasted 20 seconds, LOL!

3.) Do you even know who Kyle Katarn is? I posted numerous information on him. He'd beat the shit out of Obi-Wan, just like Dooku - given Kyle's the superior Force user, and lightsaber user. As is Mace, who's considered on par - at the least - with Dooku.



Bullshit. Obi-Wan could never beat Mace. Mace's only superior in the Jedi Order is Yoda. Anakin might be on par with him in terms of lightsaber ability, though not Force powers.

And Obi-Wan didn't beat Anakin evenly. By YOUR OWN LOGIC Obi-Wan could beat Dooku, because Anakin did. We saw in ROTS, this would never happen. As I explained, Obi-Wan had to resort to cheap tactics, luck, and so on. Anakin was not thinking clearly. We know that when he is, he's capable of owning one of the top five most powerful Force users in a minute.

ROTS novelization makes that clear.



How is Soresu, a lightsaber form, going to prevent Shatterpoint, a Force ability? And, what's even funnier is that Obi-Wan couldn't even withstand a Force push from Dooku. And what's even funnier than that is Darth "Friggin" Sidious, who's leagues above Obi-Wan in terms of Force power and dueling ability, wasn't able to prevent Shatterpoint.

When has Shatterpoint been blocked again? Never? Because it's practically something that can't?

And when I talk about that "Force push" - I'm talking about the very first time Dooku and Obi-Wan engaged lightsabers. Obi-Wan got tooled twice by the Force. One being a Force push, the other was a choke, toss, and collapse.



Yes, highly logical that someone on par - if not above - Dooku will be held up for that long. It's funny when you consider Obi-Wan only actually fought with Dooku for twenty seconds before getting owned.

And there's no possible way that Revan can even kill Kyle easily, if at all. Need I post all that information again?

The defense rests it's case.

What the hell, he wasn't using cheap tricks. Anakin is the one who destroyed the playing field. They would have continued to fight on a flat surface had not he slashed the alarm. This would have prevented the lava skating and the higher ground scenario.

And Obi-Wan jumped on the platform because he was being pushed by Anakin's Djem So. He had no where else to go.

And Anakin was not beating the shit of Obi-Wan. Yes, he was winning in many parts of the duel, but he wasn't pawning his master. There wasn't any time during the duel that I thought Obi-Wan is getting destroyed.



Actually, he lasted 45 seconds before collapsing.



Didn't find your Exhibit quite useful. We only have a glimpse of Obi-Wan before he gets thrown.




We all know who Katarn is, and we all know he's greater than Obi-Wan.




He didn't get tooled by the Force. He got pushed. And the second scene, he would have gotten up had not Dooku threw that thing on him.


So you're saying that Kyle will tool Obi-Wan is about thirty seconds and then wipe the floor with Revan.

I think Obi-Wan will fight a long match, even if he's getting tooled. By it all depends how long Revan can take out Kyle or Mace so he can save Obi-Wan and then go back to his original target. I am not quite sure about this. He'll probably have a long duel with either of them, so it depends on Obi-Wan. And Obi-Wan will lose to either of them, so yeah.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Which is as I stated before, bullshit. Revan already knew how to use that function of the Star Forge. The second function is to strengthen a powerful dark side user with force energy, which Malak reveals.

No. You are simply assuming he's talking about that without it being mentioned. They only used the SF for starship production, then the officer comes up and says that they are producing 3 times as many starships as they did when Revan was in charge and then Malak comes up with the statement that "if Revan had discovered all the power of the SF he would have been invincible". Yeah. What were they talking about ? Starship production - not some other power which is never mentioned and never used.

If the SF makes somebody powerful then you might tell me why Malak did install those Jedi there to heal himself up and - despite of the fact that Revan and him were almost equal and he now had the SF and the Jedi to heal himself as additional resources - had his ass handed to Revan again...



WTF ? Read Shatterpoint, the CW era novels / comics and watch the CW cartoons and then come up with the "Mace has not shown sufficient strength in the force" bull again...



Wow. He was only barely able to block a sustained wave of force lightning at point blank range when we saw a single blast of it having enough energy to push Yoda through Sidious office ?



Oh wow. What people can make out of the sentence that he "pulled lightning from the sky"...
It is possible that none force users don't see the force energy coming from the hand but only that, which comes down from the sky in form of lightning. Hence they exactly saw this and nothing more.

And Sidious obliterated a Battalion of Stormtroopers with force lightning. A batallion, according to the information given about the Republic army, consisted of 576 Clones commanded by a Major. So ups...he actually killed far more people than Revan did.



Proof ?



How can something, that you have never seen, be "visually descriped" as far superior to something that the guy, who gave the description has never seen before, huh ? Fallible third party sources are nothing to base an argument on.



Oh it was ? Kyp used his force powers to summon a thunderstorm and then fried the Leviathan with it. And he called a sustain lightning bolt from the sky that fried the Leviathan for several seconds. Uh...you were saying ?



Other than your assumption that it's far greater in magnitude based on the comment of a fallible source it's pretty obvious, that something able to kill 576 Stormtroopers trumps the ability that killed one Rakatan scouting party (small Rancor, some Rakatans).



Get it through your skull that the Rakatans are fallible third party source who don't know jack shit about force powers. Get it through your skull that none force users might only see the lightning coming from the sky. Get it through your skull that the said ability is the strongest incarnation of force lightning in KotoR hence Revan could have recovered his memory as much as he wanted - more than "strongest ability" isn't possible.



This would still not come even close to Sidious obliterating more than 500 stormtroopers with a single use of force lightning.



Regardless...since we have seen Mace being able to block Sidious force lightning, which is more powerful than whatever Revan used, I don't see Revan being able to kill Mace using the force.



You are obviously as stupid as somebody can be, huh ? If I have one ability, that allows me to forsee what happens in the next 10 seconds (Echani Precog) and another ability that allows me to forsee what happens in the next 20 seconds (Jedi precog) how would it help me to have both abilities ? How can precognition be "synergistic" ? Either you know what happens in the next 10 seconds or you don't. Two abilities that make you know what happens in the next 10 seconds aren't better than one ability that does the same - because in either way you would know what happens in the next 10 seconds.



Since when can a lightsaber form directly stop force attacks, huh ? It can't. He can use Soresu until he's blue in the face - that won't stop Mace or Kyle to wipe the floor with him using their superior force powers.



I do ? I just use the description of this ONE ability from the KotoR games and compare what Revan had used to the power of Sidious force lightning which - oh noes - was greater and blocked by Windu.

And even in the worst case scenario (Mace going down against Revan, Obi-Wan in the same moment going down against Kyle - something that won't even happen) Kyle on his own would still destroy Revan.

So...Mace and Kyle always win this - no matter what you do, Revan fanboy.

Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
What the hell, he wasn't using cheap tricks. Anakin is the one who destroyed the playing field. They would have continued to fight on a flat surface had not he slashed the alarm. This would have prevented the lava skating and the higher ground scenario.

And Obi-Wan jumped on the platform because he was being pushed by Anakin's Djem So. He had no where else to go.

And Anakin was not beating the shit of Obi-Wan. Yes, he was winning in many parts of the duel, but he wasn't pawning his master. There wasn't any time during the duel that I thought Obi-Wan is getting destroyed.

Wow. I'm pretty impressed that you didn't think Obi-Wan would get destroyed, knowing perfectly well that he has to win this duel before even seeing the movie for the first time, given, that you know Vader got a lava bath while Obi-Wan was perfectly ok 2 decades later.



Yes. Because he didn't fight Dooku for the entire time and not one on one.



Oh he would ? Would he have been alone, Dooku would have slaughtered 5-10 seconds after he threw him. And Obi-Wan wasn't even moving before Dooku brought that metal thing down on him. So how did you reach that conclusion ?



He's able to tool Obi-Wan in 5 seconds using the force given his far superior force powers (I guess this is post-NJO Kyle).



Nice. Except for the small facts that Obi-Wan won't last longer against Kyle or Mace than he did against Dooku and I don't see any proof that Revan would even be able to take down Mace or Kyle on his own.

Nai, what the hell is this bullshit about Revan and Malak being "about equal"? Since when were they EVER "about equal"? That's some unsubstantiated bullshit on your part. And when did Sidious kill the stormtroopers. Was it in ROTS or a lot later? And if it was a lot later how the hell can you say "ROTS Sidious had far more powerful lightning than Revan", when that's also unsubstantiated(assuming Sidious didn't kill the Stormtroopers in ROTS). Stop calling people fanboys, you are obviously having a rough month or are angry about something.

'No. You are simply assuming he's talking about that without it being mentioned. They only used the SF for starship production, then the officer comes up and says that they are producing 3 times as many starships as they did when Revan was in charge and then Malak comes up with the statement that "if Revan had discovered all the power of the SF he would have been invincible". Yeah. What were they talking about ? Starship production - not some other power which is never mentioned and never used.

If the SF makes somebody powerful then you might tell me why Malak did install those Jedi there to heal himself up and - despite of the fact that Revan and him were almost equal and he now had the SF and the Jedi to heal himself as additional resources - had his ass handed to Revan again...'

1. Both Malak and Bastilla continuously mention that the SF powers up the individual controlling it, I can't give you the exact quotes because I haven't played the game for a while, but IIRC:

(I)Bastilla mentions that Revan was a fool for not harnessing the full power of the SF (something like that), and sparks fly into her from the SF, and she seems stronger - seemingly she has been powered up.

(II) Malak repeatedly states similar things to what Bastilla says, and at one point even states that he can use the power of the SF to drain the life energy of the jedi and make him stronger (something along those lines).

(III) Once Revan has defeated Malak, he states something like 'Impossible. I have all the power of the SF on my side yet you still beat me' (something similar to that). Now he is clearly referring to combat power here, as he is amazed that Revan was able to defeat him in a combat situation, even though he had all of the power of the SF on his side.

(IV) Malak states to Revan not casually as he was talking about the SF's ability to mass produce starships like you just said] that if he had learnt the true power of the SF (True power - different function, nothing about being able to control the SF's ability more efficiently), he may have become invincible. Now seeing as Revan already knew of the SF's ability to produce ships, it definitely can't be that; Malak repeatedly states that Revan was never able to harness the true power of the SF - he also makes it clear that he is referring to the powering up of the SF. It's clear that Malak is referring to the powering up of the SF.

Now the fact that he states that Revan would have become invincible means that either the powering up of the SF is immense, or Revan was already near invincible. Either way, it speaks incredibly for Revan as he was either close to invincible in Malak's eyes (Malak would have had no need to lie, he knew much about the SF and Revan, and would likely be aware of how powerful Revan would have grown with that added power) or the powering up of the SF was immense, and Revan was able to defeat someone who was already extremely powerful, yet had the added power of the SF (which was so immense that it could have possibly made Revan invincible).

2. You seem to think that Malak needing to drain the life off of the captive jedi to keep up with Revan says something bad about Malak. This just says great things about Revan and the SF.

Originally posted by Sith'ari
(III) Once Revan has defeated Malak, he states something like 'Impossible. I have all the power of the SF on my side yet you still beat me' (something similar to that). Now he is clearly referring to combat power here, as he is amazed that Revan was able to defeat him in a combat situation, even though he had all of the power of the SF on his side.

Well then, Sidious, as of ROTS is the most powerful Sith ever. Look how well Mace did against him. In Dark Empire it says something along the lines of "Yoda could not defeat the most powerful Sith" and it it clearly referencing to a combat situation.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Well then, Sidious, as of ROTS is the most powerful Sith ever. Look how well Mace did against him. In Dark Empire it says something along the lines of "Yoda could not defeat the most powerful Sith" and it it clearly referencing to a combat situation.

You would be reffering to the NEC, which is an in-universe guide. In other words, the narrator is fallible. Basically, it means jack. Unless you can show me where it says this in DE.

Do you even understand what you're saying??? I know Obi-Wan is not going to get destroyed!!!! I said to advent that Anakin wasn't pawning his master. I said that while Anakin was winning for some parts of the duel, it was a close duel, not one-sided.




Yeah, and the time he was fighting, he was attacking with Ataru or Shii-Cho, something NOT Soresu. The made him even more vulnerable to get himself tooled.



If he had been alone, that wouldn't have happened until perhaps a minute later.



I don't care how good Kyle is, he won't be able to defeat Kenobi in 5 seconds or 10 seconds.




Mace and Kyle might win. My only problem is that I feel that Kenobi is being underated.

just cos he ran dosent mean he was getting killed if u was in the army u would use tactis not run straight in and try and ram em to deth and i know who kyle is but he carnt kill jaden and if he carnt kill jaden he **** kill reven and obi wan ran to get the advantage it dosent seem that ulearnt the words tactics they do help