Whos good and whos evil?

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zachrivard
is count dooku good? i guess you could argue each side cuase all he wanted to do was get rid of the sith but are all sith evil?

chinabing
but are all sith evil?
Pretty much.

((The_Anomaly))
Yes all Sith are pretty friggin evil, even if they don't so much seem like they are. Dooku being one of those people. But trust me, he was evil, very evil.

Alliance
The Sith are portrayed as evil in the films, yes.

General Kon-El
To themselves, the Sith do not see themself as evil. Like in the Clone War novels, the Jedi said that when you fall into the Dark Side, you see what you're doing as right and not the wrong.

Rampant ox
Dooku left the jedi order becuase he thought it was corrupt. He then joined the sith because of his ambitious desires to become better than everyone else. "I have become more powerful than any jedi". He also beecame a sith to help build a new Republic because he didnt think the old one was working. So from his point of view he was doing good, but in reality he was creating a war and killing millions of people.

Darth Kreiger
He didn't want to recreate the Republic, he wanted to be the Emperor's Vader, controlling the Galaxy in an Empire, but Anakin took that job away in about 50 seconds

Ushgarak
This is Star Wars, no need to worry about shades of grey here. Good guys and bad guys; Dooku is a bad guy. He may be elegant, thoughtful and charming, but still bad.

queeq
Amen to that.

aj_vader
Every Sith that i've seen and read about are evil, so yes i guess there evil!

and ye thats so right, the Sith lords believe there doing the correct or right thing, look at Anakin in Revenge Of The Sith, the best example wink

Alliance
There are shades of grey in everything. There is not a right or wrong answer to every question. Evil is a point of view.

Adas
Exactly. Only a sith deals in absolutes.

Darth Kreiger
Originally posted by Adas
Exactly. Only a sith deals in absolutes.

Which is itself an absolute

Alliance
Hence Lucas is really hypocritical and doesnt make sense.

overlord
Originally posted by zachrivard
is count dooku good? i guess you could argue each side cuase all he wanted to do was get rid of the sith but are all sith evil? Dooku wanted to get rid of the sith? Wasn't he one himself?

Alliance
I never did get that...in AOTC when talking to Kenobi in prison...the whole "join me, and we can destroy the Sith" speech.

Was that indended to be a ploy (take Kenobi as an apprentice and overthrow Sidious), or did Dooku actually think he could overthrow Sidious and destroy the Sith (say if he also gave up his lordship)?

Did Lucas ever say anything on what he intended?

queeq
Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
Which is itself an absolute

It is, isn't it? laughing

One of Lucas's inconsistencies.

How about: "Don't give into hate, that leads to the Dark Side." Sounds pretyy absolute.

Alliance
How about most of Yoda's ESB speech.

"NO! There is no why." (Do what i say without question b*tch!)

queeq
Jedi are VERY absolute...

What the heck did Lucas mean by that line anyway?

Ushgarak
It was really referring to comments like "If you are not my friend, you are my enemy," that kind of thing.

But nevermind all that as for the wider cosmology. George Lucas, and Star Wars itself, is very clear- that there is good and evil, white hats and black hats, and people are clearly one or the other. Your comment may be so about real life, Alliance, but not in Star Wars- no shades there.

Blue_Hefner
good and evil are just points of view.

queeq
Not in SW.

Alliance
Originally posted by queeq
Not in SW.

I don't think thats true.

In the PT, there is a lot of concern, especially voiced by Padme in ROTS, that questions the motives of the "good" side.

Charaters that flip, sides, say Anakin, have grey areas in the film "I'm lost."

When Lucas tries to force the story to his two-tone mold (like when Anakin sporadically kills Mace and then becomes an insta-Sith) people get confused and Lucas' logic doesn't really sit right with most people.

I fully believe that Lucas intended to make a two toned saga, however, I don't believe he absolutely achieved his goal.

DeVi| D0do
Good and Evil are subjective... The Jedi think the Sith are evil, the Sith think the Jedi are evil... And I don't think there's any doubt that we are meant to side with the Jedi...

Ushgarak
Originally posted by Alliance
I don't think thats true.

In the PT, there is a lot of concern, especially voiced by Padme in ROTS, that questions the motives of the "good" side.

Charaters that flip, sides, say Anakin, have grey areas in the film "I'm lost."

When Lucas tries to force the story to his two-tone mold (like when Anakin sporadically kills Mace and then becomes an insta-Sith) people get confused and Lucas' logic doesn't really sit right with most people.

I fully believe that Lucas intended to make a two toned saga, however, I don't believe he absolutely achieved his goal.

The reason Padme questions the motives is because the 'good' side is actually evil, remember? Pretty basic.

Sorry, but no, you are wrong. It is black and white in Star Wars, and simply your interpretation at fault.

Jedi Priestess
Originally posted by Ushgarak


It is black and white in Star Wars

yes

Tangible God
Originally posted by Ushgarak
This is Star Wars, no need to worry about shades of grey here. Good guys and bad guys; Dooku is a bad guy. He may be elegant, thoughtful and charming, but still bad. Ever seen Wickerman, same scenario.

Alliance
Originally posted by Ushgarak
The reason Padme questions the motives is because the 'good' side is actually evil, remember? Pretty basic.

Sorry, but no, you are wrong. It is black and white in Star Wars, and simply your interpretation at fault.

Wait...we are playing with perceptions of good and evil? That seems like shades of grey to me.

chinabing
I never did get that...in AOTC when talking to Kenobi in prison...the whole "join me, and we can destroy the Sith" speech.

Was that indended to be a ploy (take Kenobi as an apprentice and overthrow Sidious), or did Dooku actually think he could overthrow Sidious and destroy the Sith (say if he also gave up his lordship)?

Ah, those Sith Lords, always scheming they are.

Because Qui-Gon was Dooku's padawan, Dooku thought Obi-Wan would be an excellent apprentice. He had a connection. He tried to lure Obi to join him.

At the time of the "join me" speech, Dooku had not revealed himself as a Sith lord. His persona was just a mere war profiteer and polical idealist. Dooku's intention was to try to lure Obi-Wan; not to destroy the Sith, but to become his apprentice and, perhaps later, reveal his Sithhood and destroy Sidious. But Dooku was tricking Obi-Wan and not revealing who he really was.

The whole Dooku speech confused the heck out of me when I first saw it, I didn't think Dooku was so evil until he started throwing the lightning around. As the great villain of Ep II, he's hard to top. It's the best kind of villain who makes you think he's your friend.

Alliance
Originally posted by chinabing
Ah, those Sith Lords, always scheming they are.

Because Qui-Gon was Dooku's padawan, Dooku thought Obi-Wan would be an excellent apprentice. He had a connection. He tried to lure Obi to join him.

At the time of the "join me" speech, Dooku had not revealed himself as a Sith lord. His persona was just a mere war profiteer and polical idealist. Dooku's intention was to try to lure Obi-Wan; not to destroy the Sith, but to become his apprentice and, perhaps later, reveal his Sithhood and destroy Sidious. But Dooku was tricking Obi-Wan and not revealing who he really was.

The whole Dooku speech confused the heck out of me when I first saw it, I didn't think Dooku was so evil until he started throwing the lightning around. As the great villain of Ep II, he's hard to top. It's the best kind of villain who makes you think he's your friend.

I agree with the last part. Your rationale is logical...but its a side topic anyway.

queeq
All is black and whiet in SW.... USh for president.

Ushgarak
Originally posted by Alliance
Wait...we are playing with perceptions of good and evil? That seems like shades of grey to me.

Why does that sound like shades of grey?

Padme assumed the Republic was good- white. But actually it was doing the bidding of the Sith- black. That is why she was worried.

queeq
Ush for King.

Velkyn
And to think if the Stormtroopers hadn't destroyed Uncle Ben's farm in Episode IV when we all first saw it, Luke would have enrolled in the Imperial Academy and we would have thought the Jedi were evil and cheered the Sith... blink

General Kon-El
Originally posted by Rampant ox
Dooku left the jedi order becuase he thought it was corrupt. He then joined the sith because of his ambitious desires to become better than everyone else. "I have become more powerful than any jedi". He also beecame a sith to help build a new Republic because he didnt think the old one was working. So from his point of view he was doing good, but in reality he was creating a war and killing millions of people. exactly

General Kon-El
Originally posted by Alliance
I never did get that...in AOTC when talking to Kenobi in prison...the whole "join me, and we can destroy the Sith" speech.

Was that indended to be a ploy (take Kenobi as an apprentice and overthrow Sidious), or did Dooku actually think he could overthrow Sidious and destroy the Sith (say if he also gave up his lordship)?

Did Lucas ever say anything on what he intended? He tried to turn Obi-Wan.

Ushgarak
Originally posted by General Kon-El
exactly

No, not exactly. That is simply his justification. The truth is that he is an evil, power-hungry mass murderer who helped perpetrate the greatest evil the Galaxy ever saw.

If you want to say that from a point of view he is good, then to paraphrase Obi-Wan, that point of view is lost.

queeq
Ush for Emperor.

Jack of Blades
Each side has diferent standarts so its har to say.

Alliance
Originally posted by Ushgarak
No, not exactly. That is simply his justification. The truth is that he is an evil, power-hungry mass murderer who helped perpetrate the greatest evil the Galaxy ever saw.

If you want to say that from a point of view he is good, then to paraphrase Obi-Wan, that point of view is lost.

You don't think that people can do "evil" actions while trying to do "good."

queeq
Not in SW...

Alliance
... no.

queeq
No.

Alliance
....um...yes.

queeq
Uh,... no

Tangible God
And what good could he have been trying to do?

Alliance
erm....yes.

Who?

Ushgarak
Dooku.

And the question is irrelevant. Dooku wasn't trying to do good, whicjh is what Tangible is getting at. That;s just not the area Star Wars looks at.

overlord
Originally posted by Alliance
You don't think that people can do "evil" actions while trying to do "good." Like for example trying to save the king from assassination and exidently killing him! Happy Dance

queeq
Nowhere near Dooku that is.

Alliance
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Dooku.

And the question is irrelevant. Dooku wasn't trying to do good, whicjh is what Tangible is getting at. That;s just not the area Star Wars looks at.

Star Wars never really looked at Dooku's motivation. We are just told he's evil.

He says that the Republic needs to start over....a valid point given the corruption in the Senate.

queeq
All we need to know is that he's evil. SW is not an arena of subtleties.

Ushgarak
Absolutely. He is on the Dark Side, therefore he is evil. The corruption was brought by evil which Dooku had joined forces with, not decided to fight against.

queeq
Ush for God.

Alliance
Star Wars has it subtleties... Each small amendment passed by the Chancellor is a subtle move towards empire...Pademe's comments over II and III are subtle increases in the Rebellion's philosophies.

While Lucas does use the "this character is evil, lets move on...." (example, Grievous). He does not use that with Anakin.

queeq
Because he's the main character tossed about by the forces of good and evil. Lucas always said it was about choice between the two, hence they are black or white, no grey areas....

Alliance
But Anakin expressed grey areas...whether Lucas recognizes it or not.

"I feel lost" THAT is a blinding grey area.

queeq
Anakin yes, in a way.... but not the rest. He is the chooser, the others are the ones he has to choose between. And his choice is between good or evil, so when he says "I feel lost" he either needs directions to the Jedi Temple, or he is in the process of choosing, doubting between good and evil... He doesn't like the good side a hell of a lot, and the evil side has a lot to offer apparantly... So there he is, a whiny lost boy.

Alliance
He was always whiny.

Since Anakin was a central character, the audience does not treat him as if he is either good or evil...there is a slide involved. This is why many people had trouble with this fall. We know there is good and evil in him...he is a mix. He may choose to emphasize one or the other, but both are always there. He is grey.

Tangible God
IMO, Anakin was always a confused, whiny child, who'd go on to take the route of ease and evil. In this particular sense, the OT ruined what could have been salvaged from Hayden's portrayel of Anakin.

Anakin WAS grey, the whole "I'm lost" thing and all. The only reason I had trouble with his fall was due to the abruptness of it, not the reasons behind it.

queeq
No, ANakin WAS good (the good man that was your father....) and then turned to evil... No greys, he's just in transit.

Alliance
Umm...isn't the transit between black and white grey?

queeq
Nope... it's like crossing a border or scoring a goal, the line is crossed or not.

Alliance
There is a transition state...its shown.

queeq
No, it's like scoring a goal: he's on his way to make a choice: in which goal shall I score, the opponents or my own?

Alliance
A goal is an objective, its nothing to do with the nature of the player.

Tangible God
At a certain point, Anakin's greyness was like standing on the North Pole. You're not south or north of anything anymore, you're in the dead middle, even if only for a moment.

I feel that moment's was in Palpatine's office, where he's trying to convince Mace to keep Palpatine alive. He went from Good his whole life, Grey that moment, and Bad from then on in.

Alliance
But...if you're walking south...that doesnt mean you are South.

queeq
*sigh* Bloody semantics...

Consider commiting a crime. When are you a thief: when you consider stealing something or when you actually steal it? Same with Anakin, he considers a lot but he becomes evil at the moment he pledges himself to Sidious' teachings.

Ushgarak
Doesn't look like a grey transit to me. Anakin is troubled, yes, but that's not displaying a moral grey area. He goes straight from good to evil in the fight scene in ROTS, and straight from evil to good in the fight scene in ROTJ.

At no point does the film even attempt to explore morally questionable actions from Anakin. There are never ever questions; he is always performing either good or evil.

queeq
Ush for Supreme Being

Alliance
What about killing Dooku.

+ Leader of the seperatists...helps end the war.
- Killing an unarmed prisoner.

The same scenario comes up with Mace.

queeq
I didn't get that...

Tangible God
So Ush doesn't believe in inner conflict, when even for a second or two you're unsure of what path to take?

Alliance
Originally posted by queeq
I didn't get that...

Then why does Anakin express hesitation and vocally regret his action?

queeq
Because he's a nerd.

Alliance
erm maybe.

Maybe becuse Lucas doesn't know what he's doing?

queeq
He does.... but he's not been doing it too well.

Alliance
Perhaps he never did it well

queeq
I dunno.... American Graffiti, THX-1138 and ANH are still excellent films...

Alliance
Originally posted by Alliance
Perhaps he never did it well

queeq
YEah....right....

Lucifer_M
but the true reason he went to the darkside was to master dark force and light force to balance himself. he wanted to bring the jedi back to glory before palpatine was even known

Tangible God
How very naive of him.

Alliance
Not really. Balance is admirable (light dark balance, not Lucas' unbalance).

Ushgarak
GL is entirely fair to call the use of evil as innately unbalancing. I greatly favour his interpretation of balance over yours.

queeq
ME too.

Ush rules.

Alliance
And I think his interpretation is crap. Congratulations...we have opinons.

queeq
But not all are very good... stick out tongue

Tangible God
My opinion is that Jesus was a Wookie but that doesn't make it right.

My opinion about good and evil in Star Wars matches the opinion of the creator of the saga, which is right.

queeq
Simplicity rules.

Alliance
Simplicity is often wrong.

queeq
Like when?

~Lord_Vezon~
Evil rocks!evil face

queeq
Where are they?

Alliance
Originally posted by queeq
Like when?

Like with anything concerning morality.

queeq
But sometimes complexity is a tool for bad morals... to fog your mind.

Alliance
No. Example?

queeq
Go listen to debates in politics... none of that has anything to do with improving thngs for people, only for power. And they do make things unnecessarily complex regularly.

Alliance
Perhaps you oversimplify because you don't understand the situation?

queeq
I do... but there are always plans within plans.

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