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ok when vader first got into the suit he is only half of ROTS anakin skywalker sources from the ROTS novel but i believe he regains his powers 19 years after the incident. in that 19 years he mastered grip, learnt crush possibly after the purge, had a stronger connection to the force and more experienced and mastered Djemso/shien.


his limitations for being in the suit are
1. he cant do lightning without risking it messing his life support
2.he cant force jump as high as pre burnt
3. he has less midichlorians and cant achieve his full potential
(his hacked lumbs caused this my opinion if its just the suit he wore without his lost limbs he still could get to his full potential)


gl stated as anakin skywalker he was roughly 80% of the emperor.
when he got hacked and burnt he only became 40% half of what he is,
as time grew on he regained his powers, like in TESB when he choked his commanding officer a long distance away in the meditation chamber which anakin in ROTS had trouble killing padme at close range.

vader i think is 80% after he regained his strength and got used to the suit. anakin is more on the lightsaber agility while vader is on strength and stronger in the force.

lets please not go into full potential anakin, that guy is equal to NJO luke who would stomp on every ones ass

Is this post a question? A topic for discussion perhaps? Because looks to me you've just given a statement there which is pure ammo for someone to argue...

Yes, Anakin could only go back to 80% of Sidiou's level. Had he survived Mustafar, he would have been twice the power of Sids. I would say 80% of Sidious is Dooku. Therefore, I consider Vader to on the same level as Dooku.

Originally posted by exanda kane
Is this post a question? A topic for discussion perhaps? Because looks to me you've just given a statement there which is pure ammo for someone to argue...

what do you mean? O.O? pure ammo.

its more of a discussion, just give your opinions like what vos did

Originally posted by ESB Vader
what do you mean? O.O? pure ammo.

its more of a discussion, just give your opinions like what vos did

As in you've given statements, without really backing them up, so people who actually care to argue this sort of thing will tear you to shreads for it. I personally couldn't give a damn "who is teh mostest ub3r S1thy lordo!!111" but someone people will just rip you for it.

When someone posts a topic without really explaining its point it miffs me.

yea you are right, i put in too much looks like an arguement. backing them up? george lucas words, guide book to ROTS, theres the back up, anyways im not up for an arguement unless i get full back ups

Originally posted by ESB Vader
gl stated as anakin skywalker he was roughly 80% of the emperor.
when he got hacked and burnt he only became 40% half of what he is,
as time grew on he regained his powers, like in TESB when he choked his commanding officer a long distance away in the meditation chamber which anakin in ROTS had trouble killing padme at close range.

Ummm, I'm pretty sure he wasn't actually trying to kill Padme with that force choke he did in ROTS.

And I'm not actually sure what this thread is about...You just stated some vague opinions on what you think Vaders limitations are.

What are we supposed to be discussing here?

Originally posted by ESB Vader
more experienced and mastered Djemso/shien.

Anakin already mastered Djem So. He mastered his Djem So variant, or perfected it, but as for actual Djem So - Anakin mastered it by ROTS. As Dooku says "The boy was the finest Djem So practitioner he'd ever seen". Can't be the finest without mastering it, eh?

maybe vader had it in finest not sure though but he uses 1 hand variation

anomaly, just putting my opinions here, alot of people underestimate vader just because he landed in the suit and many people think that he remains weak even 19 years later,

not really gonna argue

Originally posted by ESB Vader
maybe vader had it in finest not sure though but he uses 1 hand variation

anomaly, just putting my opinions here, alot of people underestimate vader just because he landed in the suit and many people think that he remains weak even 19 years later,

not really gonna argue

I hate to annoy you now you've made the post, but if the point of this post was you trying to show that people are wrongly underestimating Darth Vader, then just build your post around it, instead of vague opinions.

Just be happy, ESB, that the majority of casual Star Wars fans will always think of Vader as the biggest, baddest Sith Lord of them all, and that ain't changing

naw ur not annoying me, what do u mean build your post around it?

I read an article in Rollingstone (online) in which GL was interviewed and stated that Vader (in the suit), 80% of Sidious' power, was about equal to Dooku because of his defeat on Mustafar.

I think this is a contradiction and flies in the face of the whole thing about the Force. Remember when Yoda reminds Luke not to judge him by his physical attributes ("crude matter".

With that in mind, I don't think it mattered if Anakin/Vader lost one limb or all of them. Keep in mind that Anakin, after losing an arm to Dooku in their previous duel, claims that "my powers have doubled." To me, this is evidence that one can grow stronger in the Force, despite his/her physical capabilities.

After reading "Dark Lord," I think the missing "x-factor" was simply "swagger." Anakin had it prior to his defeat at Mustafar, and Vader had it after defeating Master Shryne. To me, Vader is much more powerful when he regains his confidence (and swagger). I can understand his inability to use Force Lightning due to his electrical life support systems in his suit, but I'm not sure that it means he CAN'T do it... Remember, he's always using his mechanical hands to choke people, so who's to say his "inability" to use it isn't so much as simply his desire not to short out his suit.

Of course, he would never jump around like Yoda or Sidious in ROTS, but "Dark Lord" clearly shows that he can jump a great distance. IMHO, Vader's limitations are purely mechanical and psychological. I think if he'd have designed his own suit, he'd be every bit as agile as General Grievous (he alludes to how he could have done a much better job than the droids who created his suit). Finally, I believe his suit's limitations are purposely sub-par, just so Sidious can keep him in his place... Just my opinion (hope I supplied enough evidence to back it up lmao!)

Originally posted by Nupe Kill Droma
With that in mind, I don't think it mattered if Anakin/Vader lost one limb or all of them. Keep in mind that Anakin, after losing an arm to Dooku in their previous duel, claims that "my powers have doubled." To me, this is evidence that one can grow stronger in the Force, despite his/her physical capabilities.

He grew stronger because he only lost one arm, obviously that still hindered his Force potential, but nothing to the degree of disfigurement that happened on Mustafar. It's obvious that what Yoda says and Vader's circumstances are completely different. Yoda, for example, has all of his limbs intact, he's merely talking about his short stature and old age. Vader on the other hand is out of three limbs, skin, and even hair too (surprisingly enough, he still has eyebrows), which limits his potential - age and height don't affect that. Losing a part of that potential (i.e. body part) does.

Plus, the green muppet is a creep anyways. "Do or do not, there is no try", "Only a Sith deals in absolutes".

As for Anakin's arm, it's clear he was just so powerful in potential that losing an arm wouldn't cut his potential in half. Just like losing half his body practically wouldn't cut his potential completely, however, it did affect it to the degree that he could only be half of what he would become.

I really can't think of the exact words to say, so if you need me to elaborate hopefully I can later - if you don't get what I'm saying.



"Yes, Vader was not precisely what he had bargained for. Vader's legs and arms were artificial, and he would never be able to summon lightning or leap about like the Jedi had been fond of doing."

-- Rise of Darth Vader, Chapter 21; written by James Luceno, 2005.

As you can see, he cannot use Force lightning due to the fact he needs actual limbs, not those artifical ones made for him. Grip, Choke, and all that good stuff have different properties, and aren't executed in the same manner. You don't exactly use those types of thing with like, your fingertips.

Advent, you make debating an art... and a sexy one at that...

I can't argue against the book (regarding Force Lightning), true enough, and your point is well taken. However, as I said before, when Yoda states:

"Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter. You must feel the Force around you; here, between you, me, the tree, the rock, everywhere, yes. Even between the land and the ship"

he is demonstrating that the Force is more spiritual than physical.

And that brings us back to the original point of this thread: Vader's limitations. As you have been gracious enough to provide quotes from Dark Lord, allow me to provide one (lol or more), also (in support of my original argument that Vader's limitations are all in his MIND):

"... Vader's bloodlust had been appeased; replaced by self-possession of a sort he had never before experienced. It was as if he had crossed some invisible threshold to a new world. He could feel the power of the dark side surging through him like an icy torrent. He felt invulnerable in a way that had nothing to do with his durasteel prostheses, his suit of armor and gadgets, which now seemed little more than an outfit (Luceno, p. 295)."

In other words, Vader had a swagger that he didn't even have as Anakin, and that's what it all boils down to: the Force, knowledge, willpower, etc. (everything that's in one's head).

I know it's overkill, but we can also look at the examples of Kreia, Visas Marr, and Luke (during lightsabre training when Ben shields Luke's eyes, and when he encourages Luke to "use the Force" to fire the shot that ultimately destroys the first Death Star) to demonstrate that even vision isn't necessary when having the Force as an ally.

Finally, just to cotinue the quote that you provided, referring to the fact that Vader would never be able to use Force Lightning:

"... His dark side training was just beginning. But Sith power resided not in the flesh, but in the WILL..."

"... Vader's real weaknesses were psychological rather than physical, and for Vader to overcome them he would need to be driven deeper into himself, to confront all his choices and his disappointments (Luceno, p. 135)."

Edit: In reading the above passage for the ump-teenth time, I'm somewhat inclined to believe that while Sidious is more powerful, he still recognizes that Vader still possesses the capability to surpass him, and that it is simply a psychological advantage that he maintains over Vader, or so it seems...

lol I think I continue to get something new out of this stuff every time I read it. lol

However there are such things as physical manifestations of the force.

Originally posted by Jen'ari
However there are such things as physical manifestations of the force.

No offense to you, but I think this is a moot point, simply because Anakin himself is a physical manifestation of the Force. In fact, it could be argued that everthing is a physical manifestation.

Still, when it comes to manipulating the Force, it's totally a matter of belief and will. Hence, Yoda could pull Luke's sunken ship from the swamp, and Vader could Force choke a man from a distance without doing the squeeze with his fingers (as seen in ESB). Advent's right about Force lightning, but I'm also curious to know if all Force lightning necessarily comes from (or through) one's hands? In other words, could lightning be manipulated without using one's limbs? There is a difference between "manipulating" and "summoning" (kinda like the fire guy on X-Men, though I know that has nothing to do with the Star Wars universe lol)...

What are you even trying to prove? There is no contradiction between Lucas' quote and anything else. Losing parts of your body severs Force connection. It matters that Anakin lost his body parts.

Vader has physical limitations, he has Force power limitations. There's really nothing more to it. There are things he just cannot do, regardless of if he overcame the mental aspects. He cannot become as agile, he cannot use Force lightning.



And what exactly do those quotes have to do with the fact he's unable to ever summon Force lightning? That he's just plainly unable to do some things?

"I won't let this chair stop me!" - Some random guy in a wheelchair.

Being paralyzed will stop you from doing things. If he was paralyzed permanently, how will overcoming that he's in wheelchair (mentally) change the fact he'll never win a Tour de France? Or, for example, say someone gets both their arms lopped off - how are they going to become the top Home run hitter (or whatever it's called, not familiar with baseball)?

I really don't even understand what exactly you're trying to prove.

Originally posted by Advent
And what exactly do those quotes have to do with the fact he's unable to ever summon Force lightning? That he's just plainly unable to do some things?

"I won't let this chair stop me!" - Some random guy in a wheelchair.

Being paralyzed will stop you from doing things. If he was paralyzed permanently, how will overcoming that he's in wheelchair (mentally) change the fact he'll never win a Tour de France? Or, for example, say someone gets both their arms lopped off - how are they going to become the top Home run hitter (or whatever it's called, not familiar with baseball)?

I really don't even understand what exactly you're trying to prove.

If you have to keep asking "what trying to prove," then I can only assume that your grasp of language (in this case, English) is not as firm as you have bragged on other posts.

The original point of this thread: what are Vader's limitations?

My point: his limitations are mostly psychological, and I've given enough evidence to support this. Would you disagree? Of course you would, and I'm not mad at you for it. Still, I think the only thing that's really holding Vader back is Vader. Ok, he can't use lightning, and he's a step slower in the agility department. But I still don't think those really "limit," or hinder him in defeating an opponent, as he still gets the job done.

Anyway, we're not talking about people in wheelchairs or being paralyzed. We're talking about cyborg Darth Vader. I would have thought you knew that, except you began mentioning paralysis and wheelchairs, neither of which apply in Vader's case... In fact, the context in which you mention them has nothing to do with the Star Wars universe where anything is possible through the Force (maybe lol).

Originally posted by Nupe Kill Droma
If you have to keep asking "what trying to prove," then I can only assume that your grasp of language (in this case, English) is not as firm as you have bragged on other posts.

Or maybe you just don't make sense? The most likely (and actual) case.



And? You keep saying that like I don't know. His "limitations" include not being as agile, not being able to summon certain Force powers, and so on. Yes, there's more, but those are things he cannot do/become because of physical problems.



When did I ever say I disagreed or not? I'm just stating there's things he just will not ever be able to do due to the fact he's physically limited to what he has available. And I was originally arguing that getting a limb severed does have the effect of lowering one's Force potential. Losing Force rich cells that contain potential obviously will do that. Vader practically losing half his body limits his Force potential and power from what it could be. Nothing he does mentally will change that.

Really, no one gives a shit if some - or even the majority - of his limitations are all his mind, the fact of the matter is that because he lost half his body, he isn't going to be as powerful, as agile, as graceful, he won't be able to use some Force powers.



Holding him back from what? He'll never be as powerful as Sidious, he'll never reach his full potential. Correct me if I'm wrong here (I'm not, so don't worry), but his little "psychological" limitations didn't stop him from killing four Jedi (two Masters, one Knight, one padawan) one month after he got put into the suit.



The point was that if you have physical limitations, overcoming them mentally will not change the fact that you won't be able to do them. Obviously the point flew over your thick head.

The context had "nothing to do with Star Wars"? No, it had to do with this debate. Let's see, for example, being paralyzed means you can't walk. Okay, so paralysis man won't be able to run a marathon. Getting your arms hacked off means you can't summon Force lightning. Obviously no mental preparations will change those facts.

Originally posted by Advent
When did I ever say I disagreed or not?

Disregard this statement. I don't know why I said it, because I do disagree.

You're hilarious.

Anyways, I do see where you're coming from Nupey-boy. It's becoming less and less of a rarity these days that I eventually can end up proving the opponent's position better than they can.

What I'm saying is that if you do want your little "theory" explained correctly and logically, you should ask me because I now understand what you're saying, however, your lack of elaboration and logical statement "limits" you from proving your case. Obviously you need a professional to handle this job.

I bet I can make a case that will prove your case better than your own case! Makes sense? Didn't think so.

Damn time limits. Anyways, Nupey-boy, I'm going to be your teacher. So, lesson #1:

We start with a question - by this statement...

Originally posted by Nupe Kill Droma
I read an article in Rollingstone (online) in which GL was interviewed and stated that Vader (in the suit), 80% of Sidious' power, was about equal to Dooku because of his defeat on Mustafar.

...are you acknowledging the fact Lucas says this, and that it means he's 80% due to the fact he lost limbs? I'm giving you a chance to redeem your argument, and show some signs of hope.

Stop zee double psoting before I R forced to tounge lash j00

Originally posted by Advent
Obviously the point flew over your thick head.

lol I'm inclined to just call you a stupid b***h and leave it at that, but I enjoy a good argument every bit as much as you obviously do. With that in mind, I'll make an attempt to penetrate your thick durasteel cranium holding your pea brain.



Let me say for the record that I'm not implying that Vader was as powerful as Sidious or ever would be. Otherwise, he would have turned on him sooner than he did. I'm not making an attempt to quantify Vader's/Anakin's "potential." Also, it's obvious that we've both read Dark Lord: the Rise of Darth Vader, and it's obvious that we both got some different things from the story. Perhaps the problem is that I've minimized his "physical limitations," but, (to put my own twist on your great revelation) Vader's little "PHYSICAL" limitations didn't stop him from killing four Jedi (two Masters, one Knight, one padawan) one month after he got put into the suit.

"Holding him back from what?"

As I already said:




Have you noticed that we're not really disagreeing so much as insulting each other? The difference is that I've been big enough to admit that my opinion doesn't carry as much weight as the quote you provided from the book. Further, I was also willing to acknowledge some of the valid points you made. You, on the other hand, seem to be only capable of hurling insults in attempts to make yourself appear to be some omniscient SW guru who happens to be the only one on the planet who has an opinion worth having. Of course, you weren't disagreeing with me. You couldn't. And by the same token, I can't disagree with you, either. We're both right, and we've both provided the evidence that supports our opinions! Imagine that! Tell you what, though: since we're both right, and you're the "senior member" on this forum, I'll take your side as your apprentice. Probably not, because after reading several of your posts in other threads (many of which were very good and informative!), you strike me as one who can't stand to be equally right, wrong, or bested.

In all seriousness, all insults aside, I won't minimize Vader's physical limitations, and you don't have to minimize his psychological limitations. I'll agree to disagree without being disagreeable (even though there's nothing on which to disagree in this thread.) In the end, Vader's limitations are physical, psychological, and with the Force. If we don't understand each other by now, then "oh well."

Ok.. for the record: disregard some of the insults I threw at you, because I posted before I read your last few posts. lol.

Still:



I'm acknowledging that GL "said it in an interview," not that I buy into it. Lucas has contradicted himself a time or two before, so I'll take what he says in an interview with a grain of salt. Next question, teacher? lol

Originally posted by Nupe Kill Droma
lol I'm inclined to just call you a stupid b***h and leave it at that,

And I'm inclined to just tell you to "do it". Call me a "stupid b*tch". I love it when you talk dirty.



No, I actually hate arguing. I tried to retire. My title is "Retired Debater". Obviously I cannot rest in peace due to some comments made.



"Thick cranium"? Wow, did you just put a little variation on what I said? Brilliant, Nupester. Perhaps you need to get your spectacles examined, I mean it's not as if I nearly just said the same thing to you.

So, for that insult, since it lacks creativity, originality, and I just said basically the core of it, I'm giving you a D -.



You mean you attempting to insult, right?



No, no. Lucas' opinion matters, too.

"And the rest is mere history."



Actually, I don't even know what I'm talking about anymore. I'm tired as hell, hence why I'm acting odd. In any case, forget what I just edited out. We can agree to disagree, since it's clearly just going to be a back and forth argument that lasts infinity.

I must say that I feel honored to be having a back-and-forth with the person who created the insult "thick skull" and all variations thereof! Hardly...

In any case, I'm glad that we can at least agree on one thing: to disagree.

Perhaps we should venture to other threads and verbally smack some people around?

lmao And by the way: If you would like it if I called you a "stupid b***h," just imagine if... bah... I won't go there... lmao!

I'll see you on another thread! Hit me with a reply and let's be done with this one, shall we?

After reading through both Nupe's and Advent's posts - seriously funny reading BTW - I would have to say that I can agree with both sides.

I can accept that Vader has a great deal of Limitation placed on him Psychologically due to the loss of limbs, being on life support, and stuck in a suit. This is backed up by Advent's argument regarding paralysis and wheelchairs. It can be very difficult to mentally overcome this situation to be able to enjoy life again, rather than mourn the loss of what was.

I also accept that the loss of limbs curtailed Vader's potential as he was no longer able to have as strong a connection to the force. His midi-chlorian count while 9 years old was over 20000. Take into account he was 9 years old and a small boy at that time. Then move to fully grown teenage male and he (possibly) would have doubled that figure as he doubled in size. Then remove around 20 - 25% of his actual body. Both arms and legs, reduce the remainder of his flesh to a burn scarred husk, and guaranteed that he would have suffered a massive reduction.

Yet, the question I have is this, If at 9 years old he was over 20000 and more powerful (admittedly untrained and unaware at this time) than Yoda already. Then when adult and a much larger body mass and cell count. Then logically, (and here will be where Advent tears me apart) would he not still be more powerful than either Yoda or Sidious as neither of them had as high a count as he did at only 9 years old. As even after the accident he still retained that much body mass as he did at 9 years of age.

I think you have a very valid question, and I think this is one of the problems that GL has created for us... Still, just to clarify (though I haven't seen Episode 1 in a minute lol), Anakin isn't necessarily more powerful than Yoda; he just has a higher midichlorian count. To me, GL probably didn't think this whole "midichlorian" thing through all the way, and the whole purpose of it was simply to quantify Anakin's Force "potential" in Episode 1 and to give the viewer an idea of how powerful this little boy could become. I'd be interested to hear GL state whether or not Vader's midichlorian count was lower than the child Anakin (who already has a higher count than Yoda), simply because even with the loss of limbs Vader has more organic mass than the boy Anakin...

But in using the midichlorians to quantify Anakins "Potential" and stating that at 9 years of age that he was already "Potentially" far beyond Yoda, then it seems only "Logical" that even with the loss of limbs that he should still have been far in excess of Sidious.

We can only hope that GL decides to actually make a little bit more sense out of this mess.

Nupe Kill Droma = pwnt.

Originally posted by Jen'ari
Nupe Kill Droma = pwnt.

huh?

I think you missed the point, friend. Archangelysses and I are on the same page here, and are in agreement. I was inclined to call Advent something earlier, but now I think you merit it. Stupid b***h... /backhand slap to Jen'ari

Shut up when grown folk are talking.

I would have to agree.

I don't think that Nupe got Pwnt by Advent, as both arguments had merit and sound reasoning behind them.