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What about it makes it Incomplete?

Vaapad wasn't created until Mace's time.

Yes, they said Vaapad was what finished it, but what in the first place made it Incomplete, what doesn't it have that all the others do?

wasnt kavar a master of the juyo form?

Yea, as was Palpatine, Maul had apparent mastery of it, and the Exile after possibly learning it from Kavar, either way, I'm trying to figure out why it was seen as Incomplete without Vaapad

It was incomplete because Mace hadn't pimped it up yet Moth@f**cka!!!!

Honestly, why would you ask such obvious questions. No form is truly complete until Mace gets his hands on it.

Can ya dig it?

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
No form is truly complete until Mace gets his hands on it.

Mace isnt getting his pimp hands on my classy Makashi!! *holds him back with a chair and whip*

whip

what is vaapad exactly? sorry im asking a dumb question, i know all the other forms but seems windu the one who mastered juyo to its finest then complete it with vaapad.

maybe windu invented it as sidious invented force storm

Summary:

Vapaad is the badass form.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
*holds him back with a chair and whip*

whip


Racism

























Just kidding.

is vaapad the best form? like better than makashi niman soresu atary shien djem so

HERE IS WHAT I CALLED THE FORM TRIANGLES, I AM NOT SURE IF TIS IS CORRECT SO DON'T BLAZE ME I AM!!!! I AM ONLY ASSUMING THAT IT WORKS LIKE THIS!!!!


Shien>Makashi
Makashi>Soresu
Soresu>Shien

I call this this the Shien, Makashi, Soresu Triangle. Though I may be wrong about it.

Juyo >,=,< Ataru

Shii-Cho is okay with all forms I guess.

Niman < everything


Fast > Slow
Strong > Fast
Strong < Slow

I called this the Fast-Strong-Slow Triange.

Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
HERE IS WHAT I CALLED THE FORM TRIANGLES, I AM NOT SURE IF TIS IS CORRECT SO DON'T BLAZE ME I AM!!!! I AM ONLY ASSUMING THAT IT WORKS LIKE THIS!!!!


Shien>Makashi
Makashi>Soresu
Soresu>Shien

I call this this the Shien, Makashi, Soresu Triangle. Though I may be wrong about it.

Juyo >,=,< Ataru

Shii-Cho is okay with all forms I guess.

Niman < everything


Fast > Slow
Strong > Fast
Strong < Slow

I called this the Fast-Strong-Slow Triange.

I wouldn't say Niman is worse than them, it combines every form, so you're a Moderate in each, it should in theory be very effective, in KoToR 2, I used that and Shien the most

I consider both Sora and Depa true masters of Vaapad. They both fell to the darkside primarily due to the darkside, not because they utilised Vaapad.

juyo is incomplete because it was so hard to master. the jedi who used the form fell to the darkside.

Vaapad> Djem So=Makashi+Soresu> Ataru > Shii Cho>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Niman

Key word: theory.

Niman gives you a Moderate Skill in every Form, from there you could master 1-2 of em, it gives you Equal Skill in everything, it's the only Form that DOESN'T have a weakness, but all the crappy Jedi use it, which is why it's seen as crap. It's not Theory, it's more fact

In my eyes, in terms of potential:
1. Vaapad.
2. Ataru.
3. Makashi.
4. Niman.
5. Soresu.
6. Shien.
7. Shii-Cho.

my order is

1. vapaad
2. shien
3. makashi
4. soresu
5. ataru
6. niman
7. shii-cho

(why is makashi above shien when anakin owned dooku throughout the invisible hand battle?)

Ataru and Vaapad, because of the standard acrobatic manoeuvres and use of the force (Ataru) - limitless (Yoda shows this with Ataru (perfect offence, defence, and Vaapad is very similar to Ataru in that way, plus there is a lot more to it as well (emotions, unpredictability, technique etc.)))

With Makashi, it's almost as unlimited as Ataru or Vaapad, as you only grow more adept at dueling as your force mastery and experience (concentration) improve.

Niman because it has so much to it, so many different aspects.

Soresu because it is the ultimate defencive form.

There isn't that much to Shien. All it pretty much has is offence, and Vaapad and Ataru own it in that regard.

Shii-Cho is too simple.

I believe all the forms are intertwined. Each with their weaknesses and strength. Otherwise, why wouldn't all the Jedi pick the top form. If all are intertwined, it provides more reason why many Jedi use Niman, the Moderation Form.

How the hell is Niman even above anything aside from Shii-Cho?

"It is considered the "diplomat's Form" because it is less intensivein its demands than the other disciplines, allowing Jedi to spend more time developing their skills in perception, political strategy, and negotiation. . . In an increasingly dangerous galaxy, the "diplomat's Form" might not be enough against serious combat dangers. . .However, full masters of other Forms sometimes consider Form VI to be insufficiently demanding."

--Star Wars Insider, Issue 62.

^

Niman is not a very good form. It may have many aspects of other forms (Shii-Cho, Soresu, Ataru, Djem So), but it makes room so as the user can focus on political attributes, and less on actual combat hence "diplomat's Form".

Is there any evidence of Lightsaber forms playing a significant part in battles?

For example, if Anakin didn't use Shien, by default Dooku would have killed him? Even if the next 30 years of the saga went around him? Do you think Anakin maybe won because he is, arguably, the main character in the saga, and that his lightsaber form has nothing to do with it?

Do you think the reason for the Jedi death toll on Geonosis was because the event had to appear catastrophic? And not because all the ones who died miracuously turn out to be Niman practioners etc?

I think it's more than pure coincidence that all the Niman users were killed. Niman attempts to balance all the forms, and while it seems good, you don't master at any particular thing.

It's a still good form though.

I believe that no form is greater than the other. I mean, if Ataru or Shien or Shii-Cho was the best form, why don't all the Jedi learn that from a beginning age. That's why I believe the lightsabers form make Triangles.

Vapaad <,=,> Ataru

Makashi-Soresu-Shien form a triangle:

Soresu > Shien > Makashi > Soresu

I AM NOT SURE but I believe Shii-Cho-Niman-Jar'Kai form a triangle:

Shii-Cho < Jar'Kai < Niman < Shii-Cho

Finally in NJO, I believe the Fast-Medium-Strong Triangle is this:

Fast > Medium > Strong > Fast

Originally posted by exanda kane
Is there any evidence of Lightsaber forms playing a significant part in battles?

For example, if Anakin didn't use Shien, by default Dooku would have killed him? Even if the next 30 years of the saga went around him? Do you think Anakin maybe won because he is, arguably, the main character in the saga, and that his lightsaber form has nothing to do with it?

Do you think the reason for the Jedi death toll on Geonosis was because the event had to appear catastrophic? And not because all the ones who died miracuously turn out to be Niman practioners etc?

These are out of story explanations though.

Originally posted by Advent
How the hell is Niman even above anything aside from Shii-Cho?

"It is considered the "diplomat's Form" because it is less intensivein its demands than the other disciplines, allowing Jedi to spend more time developing their skills in perception, political strategy, and negotiation. . . In an increasingly dangerous galaxy, the "diplomat's Form" might not be enough against serious combat dangers. . .However, full masters of other Forms sometimes consider Form VI to be insufficiently demanding."

--Star Wars Insider, Issue 62.

^

Niman is not a very good form. It may have many aspects of other forms (Shii-Cho, Soresu, Ataru, Djem So), but it makes room so as the user can focus on political attributes, and less on actual combat hence "diplomat's Form".

Potential wise, it's better than Soresu, Shien and Shii-Cho.

Originally posted by Adas
Potential wise, it's better than Soresu, Shien and Shii-Cho.

Explain how "potential wise" it's better than Soresu and Shien? It's less demanding, and intense. It is suited for diplomat's, and political missions. Soresu is noted as making "true master seem invincible", as though that's an obvious exaggeration, we can infer from that that they're defenses are near impenetrable. Now, you're reasonings for Niman having more potential is what? Because it just has four forms' aspects to it? That doesn't mean it balances them out, nor even masters them to the degree a full master does. Niman users died on Geonosis for a reason.

Originally posted by Advent
Explain how "potential wise" it's better than Soresu and Shien? It's less demanding, and intense. It is suited for diplomat's, and political missions. Soresu is noted as making "true master seem invincible", as though that's an obvious exaggeration, we can infer from that that they're defenses are near impenetrable. Now, you're reasonings for Niman having more potential is what? Because it just has four forms' aspects to it? That doesn't mean it balances them out, nor even masters them to the degree a full master does. Niman users died on Geonosis for a reason.

Niman does have more potential than Soresu Motoko, because there are more apects to it. Defence, offence and pure skill - a true master would be incredible. Soresu only has defence.

Originally posted by Adas
Niman does have more potential than Soresu Motoko, because there are more apects to it. Defence, offence and pure skill - a true master would be incredible. Soresu only has defence.

In terms of having a broader variety, yes it has more "potential". In terms of being better than Soresu, it is not. Someone who masters Niman to the highest degree compete with someone who has mastered either Shien or Soresu to the highest degree (assuming both combatants have equal skill in their respective forms)? My money is on either the Soresu or Shien master. We know that Jedi that fully mastered other forms deem Niman "insufficiently demanding". We know Niman was chosen by diplomats for a reason.

We know Niman users died, obviously if they were any good - there'd be no reason as to why they were completely wiped out practically. Its variety does not fully master each of those (defense/offense) to as high of a degree as other forms, balance does not equal much in Star Wars. They do not excel in the least bit in anything. This is made apparent. Shien exploits the defensive ability of Soresu, and turns it into an offensive move (deflecting bolts), and it focuses on strength, power, and obviously has defensive aspects as it was made because Soresu was too passive, but of course wants to keep the "invincible" aspect of Soresu.

You make the point that Soresu only focuses on defense, I ask - then why isn't Niman above of Ataru? Obi-Wan switched to Soresu, "since it was apparent to Kenobi that Jinn's defense was insufficient against the Sith techniques of Darth Maul." In other words, defenses are not as good. Ataru is an offensive form. Reason why it's above Niman?

It all depends on the user, if a Jedi that used Niman focused on combat instead, it would be deadly, likely more so than Makashi, in a Lightsaber fight.

Most Jedi that use it don't really practice Lightsaber combat is what I'm saying, if they did, they would become pretty damn strong

But this topic is why Juyo is incomplete

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
It all depends on the user, if a Jedi that used Niman focused on combat instead, it would be deadly, likely more so than Makashi, in a Lightsaber fight.

That's probably the most unsupported assumption made. Deadlier than the lightsaber to lightsaber form? Yes, in some quantum dream world perhaps.

If, in fact, this theory is correct - why do no Jedi put Niman to the practice in that manner? If Niman is honestly so deadly in combat, and has, as Adas said, "offense/defense/skill", what reasons is there that no Jedi does not use that? It is obvious that this is incorrect. Also, what's the reason all the Niman practitioners died on Geonosis? You can't honestly expect every Niman user to be a diplomat, it's just suited best for them, because of its practices, so as I posed the question - answer it. You are ignoring statements made, and reasonings. We know Jedi masters deem Niman "insufficient", we know Niman users died, and we know it's the "diplomat's form".

Niman is made to be less intensive, and demanding. You're trying to practically change the form.



Pee Are Oh Vee Eee Eye Tee.

Show me sufficient evidence that Niman practitioners would be strong. They only take aspects of four other forms. They do not master them fully, they do not fully utilize them. Being balanced does not mean you'd be any better. Soresu masters are considered invincible, Makashi practitioners are considered utterly precise and powerful. From the Insider Article of Issue 62:

"Form V represents a worthy discipline prepared for any threat."

So, as we see Shien is ready for "any threat". Blaster bolts? No problem. They redirect them back at the user (taking Soresu's defensive maneuvers, and applying them offensively). Other lightsaber users? Djem So generates a lot of kinetic energy as we know, and was designed because while a Soresu master is practically unbeatable, it was considered "too passive", ergo Form V was developed. Niman is considered the "diplomat's Form". Great. If it had potential, why is it that no apparent Jedi actually picked up on that? Answer that please. Why is it that trained for decades martial masters did not pick up on that quality? Of course, somehow you can make that inference, but the actual beings cannot? And they'd have the utmost knowledge of it given they actually know exactly what they're talking about.

Niman practitioners would be "deadly" if they focused on lightsaber combat, even more so than the ultimate refinement of lightsaber combat (Makashi)? Prove it.

Niman users would be any better than Shien or Soresu? Prove it.

Where is the actual evidence for your claims? A variety does not equal better skill. Especially from something like Djem So, where we know it's offensive, but also defensive in its practices (redirecting bolts, etc.), and is considered to be prepared for "any threat". As for Niman, considered "diplomat's Form", "less intensive", "insufficient", etc.

Originally posted by Advent
That's probably the most unsupported assumption made. Deadlier than the lightsaber to lightsaber form? Yes, in some quantum dream world perhaps.

If, in fact, this theory is correct - why do no Jedi put Niman to the practice in that manner? If Niman is honestly so deadly in combat, and has, as Adas said, "offense/defense/skill", what reasons is there that no Jedi does not use that? It is obvious that this is incorrect. Also, what's the reason all the Niman practitioners died on Geonosis? You can't honestly expect every Niman user to be a diplomat, it's just suited best for them, because of its practices, so as I posed the question - answer it. You are ignoring statements made, and reasonings. We know Jedi masters deem Niman "insufficient", we know Niman users died, and we know it's the "diplomat's form".

Niman is made to be less intensive, and demanding. You're trying to practically change the form.



Pee Are Oh Vee Eee Eye Tee.

Show me sufficient evidence that Niman practitioners would be strong. They only take aspects of four other forms. They do not master them fully, they do not fully utilize them. Being balanced does not mean you'd be any better. Soresu masters are considered invincible, Makashi practitioners are considered utterly precise and powerful. From the Insider Article of Issue 62:

"Form V represents a worthy discipline prepared for any threat."

So, as we see Shien is ready for "any threat". Blaster bolts? No problem. They redirect them back at the user (taking Soresu's defensive maneuvers, and applying them offensively). Other lightsaber users? Djem So generates a lot of kinetic energy as we know, and was designed because while a Soresu master is practically unbeatable, it was considered "too passive", ergo Form V was developed. Niman is considered the "diplomat's Form". Great. If it had potential, why is it that no apparent Jedi actually picked up on that? Answer that please. Why is it that trained for decades martial masters did not pick up on that quality? Of course, somehow you can make that inference, but the actual beings cannot? And they'd have the utmost knowledge of it given they actually know exactly what they're talking about.

Niman practitioners would be "deadly" if they focused on lightsaber combat, even more so than the ultimate refinement of lightsaber combat (Makashi)? Prove it.

Niman users would be any better than Shien or Soresu? Prove it.

Where is the actual evidence for your claims? A variety does not equal better skill. Especially from something like Djem So, where we know it's offensive, but also defensive in its practices (redirecting bolts, etc.), and is considered to be prepared for "any threat". As for Niman, considered "diplomat's Form", "less intensive", "insufficient", etc.


Only you could try and turn what I said into a debate no smartass

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
Only you could try and turn what I said into a debate no smartass

Because I want to express my disagreement of your statements perhaps? Because I question your claims? Yes, of course I'm going to "turn something into a debate" when it's not a final "debate ending" statement, nor even correct. I do apologize if I don't like to let unsupported comments slide past the radar. So, you do have my sincerest apologies.

Originally posted by Advent
Because I want to express my disagreement of your statements perhaps? Because I question your claims? Yes, of course I'm going to "turn something into a debate" when it's not a final "debate ending" statement, nor even correct. I do apologize if I don't like to let unsupported comments slide past the radar. So, you do have my sincerest apologies.

My point was based on theory, because the Niman Style gives you Moderate skill in each form, it would give you what you need to Master a few, and possibly make an even better fighting style by taking say, Ataru and Makashi(who knows if this would work but what the hell) and using each of their main qualities.

This topic is about why Juyo is incomplete

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
My point was based on theory, because the Niman Style gives you Moderate skill in each form, it would give you what you need to Master a few, and possibly make an even better fighting style by taking say, Ataru and Makashi(who knows if this would work but what the hell) and using each of their main qualities.

Is that why most Niman user are not masters of other forms? Niman does not give you enough to master a form. The form's principle is exactly this that it demands less than other forms, you are completely disregarding official sources, and really - you make no sense. Niman does not allow you to master another form.

And we know that Niman does not take from Makashi whatsoever. And you're not addressing your points as Niman. You're addressing it as if someone masters separate forms, and then combines their key elements. This is not the form Niman. You're trying to create a completely new form, you're not talking about Niman.

You're misconceiving Niman users to be masters of each form, and take key aspects of such, and creating a super form. Again, as I see you skirted my questions: why is it that no apparent Jedi picked up that Niman was any good for combat? Could it be that *gasp* it's not? Obviously, it is not. Full masters of other forms deem Niman "I-N-S-U-F-F-I-C-I-E-N-T". Now tell me, why is that if Niman, in your eyes, is so good?

Niman was called the "diplomat's Form" for a reason. Niman was deemed "insufficient" and called "less intensive" for a reason. May I direct you to Star Wars Insider, Issue 62 yet again:

"...keeping with the Jedi quest to achieve true harmony and justice without resorting to the rule of power."

As we see here, Niman is not made for power, but to peacefully resolve conflicts through diplomacy. This is contrary to Djem So's motto of "victory through superior firepower". Now, can we see the difference? Can we see why Djem So > Niman? I do hope so.

"It is considered the "diplomat's Form" because it is less intensive in its demands than the other disciplines"

Ah, the famous "diplomat's Form". As I've been saying, it's not demanding, and it's by far the least intensive form aside from possibly Shii-Cho. We do know that other masters think that Niman is "insufficiently demanding" in terms of combat ability. And guess what? Look at Geonosis - they were right.

"Form VI well suits the modern Jedi's role in the galaxy, in which a Knight overly trained in martial combat might be at a loss to resolve a complex political conflict between star systems"

This is just proving that Niman is made practically specifically for diplomatic Jedi. My god. It is not a combat form that is deadly in the least bit. Please quit skirting around actual canon material, and stop being so daft.

Obviously, it even states that a "Knight overly treained in martial combat" is at a loss for diplomatic missions, in which Niman is suited for. Why is it that Niman is best suited for diplomats and not combative Jedi?

"In an increasingly dangerous galaxy, the "diplomat's Form" might not be enough against serious combat dangers."

So, as we can see, Niman users are not deadly, and they can come up short very often. As what we know above, and the fact they were wiped out at Geonosis. We also know that Niman tries to keep moderation - as that's its emphasis - so, if a Niman user were to go up against a Soresu user, what makes you think a moderate level of offense can overcome a fully defensive form (as it'd be most likely that the Niman user was on the offense)? Likewise with Djem So, what makes you think that a Niman users' moderate defense is impenetrable to a fully offensive form? Even if the Niman user tried to use the attack/defend crap, we know that Djem So - while is an offensive form, utilizes defensive tactics. And again, the Niman user would be conquered. Keep in mind, I'm discussing it as if it's two masters, who have equal "skill" in terms of mastering their form.

So, in the end, all I have to say is that you have no basis for your argument, and that a canon source, logical deduction, and such > your unsupported assumptions. If you are going to respond, please do not just write one blanket statement that doesn't even address my whole post, and at least write half of what I've wrote. As I said to Rampant, you've unfortunately neglected to answer my post at all - where I call to question your lack of evidence or justification for anything. So, do try and do that next time.



And?

juyo in my opinion is complete, and windu mastered and created Vaapad to finish Juyo,

whats so incomplete about juyo?

Originally posted by Advent
Is that why most Niman user are not masters of other forms? Niman does not give you enough to master a form. The form's principle is exactly this that it demands less than other forms, you are completely disregarding official sources, and really - you make no sense. Niman does not allow you to master another form.

And we know that Niman does not take from Makashi whatsoever. And you're not addressing your points as Niman. You're addressing it as if someone masters separate forms, and then combines their key elements. This is not the form Niman. You're trying to create a completely new form, you're not talking about Niman.

You're misconceiving Niman users to be masters of each form, and take key aspects of such, and creating a super form. Again, as I see you skirted my questions: why is it that no apparent Jedi picked up that Niman was any good for combat? Could it be that *gasp* it's not? Obviously, it is not. Full masters of other forms deem Niman "I-N-S-U-F-F-I-C-I-E-N-T". Now tell me, why is that if Niman, in your eyes, is so good?

Niman was called the "diplomat's Form" for a reason. Niman was deemed "insufficient" and called "less intensive" for a reason. May I direct you to Star Wars Insider, Issue 62 yet again:

"...keeping with the Jedi quest to achieve true harmony and justice without resorting to the rule of power."

As we see here, Niman is not made for power, but to peacefully resolve conflicts through diplomacy. This is contrary to Djem So's motto of "victory through superior firepower". Now, can we see the difference? Can we see why Djem So > Niman? I do hope so.

"It is considered the "diplomat's Form" because it is less intensive in its demands than the other disciplines"

Ah, the famous "diplomat's Form". As I've been saying, it's not demanding, and it's by far the least intensive form aside from possibly Shii-Cho. We do know that other masters think that Niman is "insufficiently demanding" in terms of combat ability. And guess what? Look at Geonosis - they were right.

"Form VI well suits the modern Jedi's role in the galaxy, in which a Knight overly trained in martial combat might be at a loss to resolve a complex political conflict between star systems"

This is just proving that Niman is made practically specifically for diplomatic Jedi. My god. It is not a combat form that is deadly in the least bit. Please quit skirting around actual canon material, and stop being so daft.

Obviously, it even states that a "Knight overly treained in martial combat" is at a loss for diplomatic missions, in which Niman is suited for. Why is it that Niman is best suited for diplomats and not combative Jedi?

"In an increasingly dangerous galaxy, the "diplomat's Form" might not be enough against serious combat dangers."

So, as we can see, Niman users are not deadly, and they can come up short very often. As what we know above, and the fact they were wiped out at Geonosis. We also know that Niman tries to keep moderation - as that's its emphasis - so, if a Niman user were to go up against a Soresu user, what makes you think a moderate level of offense can overcome a fully defensive form (as it'd be most likely that the Niman user was on the offense)? Likewise with Djem So, what makes you think that a Niman users' moderate defense is impenetrable to a fully offensive form? Even if the Niman user tried to use the attack/defend crap, we know that Djem So - while is an offensive form, utilizes defensive tactics. And again, the Niman user would be conquered. Keep in mind, I'm discussing it as if it's two masters, who have equal "skill" in terms of mastering their form.

So, in the end, all I have to say is that you have no basis for your argument, and that a canon source, logical deduction, and such > your unsupported assumptions. If you are going to respond, please do not just write one blanket statement that doesn't even address my whole post, and at least write half of what I've wrote. As I said to Rampant, you've unfortunately neglected to answer my post at all - where I call to question your lack of evidence or justification for anything. So, do try and do that next time.



And?

I'm not going to bother responding to that, you lost me in your 1st paragraph ramblings. If you bothered to read my posts instead of foaming at the mouth when you can find something to tear apart, it was based on theory, Niman being a Combination form, SHOULD make it more powerful than other forms.

Why is Juyo signifigant here? Maybe because that's what the thread is about....

Originally posted by Darth Kreiger
I'm not going to bother responding to that, you lost me in your 1st paragraph ramblings.

Sorry, but that post was more intricate, and in depth than just some craphouse ramblings. You can't respond to it anyways because it is based off canon material, whereas your "theory" is based off speculation, and unsupported assumptions.



Um, what do you think I did? I read your posts exactly, and responded to them in manner. You're going to claim *I* didn't read your posts when it's obvious you don't read mine (by own admittance, and fact you respond with one blanket statement)? You truly are ridiculous Krieger.



Yes, however I dismantled that "theory".



Sadly, that is not the case. Your theory isn't backed up by facts, aside from "combo. form". We do know that Niman isn't a good form in the least bit, hence why they all died on Geonosis, and why it's considered the "diplomat's Form". You fail to respond to my posts correctly, especially when I call into your lack of evidence. You do not justify anything either.

To claim that I'm at a loss here is ridiculous when it's completely obvious that you have no case, and I destroyed whatever little assumptions you had.



No, no. You must've misunderstood (as seems to be the case), I don't care if the thread is about Juyo. I'm expressing my disagreement with the rankings of Niman, and the theories that preside with it. Just because it got "off topic" doesn't mean I cannot still talk about it as half threads go into another direction (discussing x vs y, then it turns into x vs z). And I also can and will disagree and argue against things that:

1.) Aren't true.
2.) Are heavily unsupported.

In any case, obviously no one knows enough about the subject to answer your question properly, so quit pressing it.

Originally posted by Advent




Sadly, that is not the case. Your theory isn't backed up by facts, aside from "combo. form". We do know that Niman isn't a good form in the least bit, hence why they all died on Geonosis, and why it's considered the "diplomat's Form".


hmm each form has its pros and cons ya know. niman is more of a balanced form said so by master kavar, he said no ups no downs on onderon but i cant remember.

correct me if im wrong advent.

Originally posted by ESB Vader
hmm each form has its pros and cons ya know. niman is more of a balanced form said so by master kavar,

We already know Niman takes aspects from four forms (Ataru, Shii-Cho, Soresu, Shien), and attempts to balance them out in moderation, but that's hardly a pro. For example, if they attempt to attack a Soresu master with moderate offense, it will be to no avail. Likewise, if a Djem So user is attacking, they will be overwhelmed by only having a moderate defense. And Djem So probably has a better defense as it was trying to keep the "invincibility of Form III".



Yes, however, I think I'll trust actual canon sources over him. We do know from the Star Wars Insider, Issue 62 that "full masters of other Forms sometimes consider Form VI to be insufficient". So, I will take the plural (masters) opinions over Kavar's possible quote.

In any case, Niman does have many downs to it. For one, it doesn't even focus on combat. It's called the "diplomat's Form" for a reason! As I've been trying to relay the entire time, it leaves space so the Jedi can focus on political attributes. Another would be the fact that it is "less intensive in its demands than the other disciplines", and as already mentioned, if it had no downs then why do fully trained Jedi Masters (plural) deem Niman "insufficient".

Niman is probably the second worst form, next to Shii-Cho of course. Hence why they all died at Geonosis.

How is Shii-Cho worse? Kit Fisto used that form quite well, especially in the Clone Wars series. Didn't Cestus Deception Kit beat Cestus Deception Kenobi?




Well Kavar was a weaponmaster of his time, so he may be right. However, Niman is not a good form to use.

Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
Well Kavar was a weaponmaster of his time, so he may be right. However, Niman is not a good form to use.

Oh, really? Well I suppose the "masters" that deem Niman "insufficient" aren't jack shit then? Aside from the fact canon material disproves Kavar's quote of "no ups, no downs". In combat, it's obviously down - by being deemed "insufficient" by masters - not just one, by not focusing on combat, and being "less intensive in its demands than the other disciplines". It does have "ups" actually. Again, from the Star Wars Insider, Issue 62:

"Form VI well suits the modern Jedi's role in the galaxy, in which a Knight overly trained in martial combat might be at a loss to resolve a complex political conflict between star systems.

ok... isnt this about juyo?

People can still discuss Juyo. What's holding them up exactly? They don't have to bother to read the discussion about Niman, nor address it to post.

ok i do know shien djrm so is a strength form makashi is a fencing.

what is juyo form exactly? what are its ascpets. i do know vaapaad refelcts a darksiders own hate against him

Originally posted by Advent
Sorry, but that post was more intricate, and in depth than just some craphouse ramblings. You can't respond to it anyways because it is based off canon material, whereas your "theory" is based off speculation, and unsupported assumptions.



Um, what do you think I did? I read your posts exactly, and responded to them in manner. You're going to claim *I* didn't read your posts when it's obvious you don't read mine (by own admittance, and fact you respond with one blanket statement)? You truly are ridiculous Krieger.



Yes, however I dismantled that "theory".



Sadly, that is not the case. Your theory isn't backed up by facts, aside from "combo. form". We do know that Niman isn't a good form in the least bit, hence why they all died on Geonosis, and why it's considered the "diplomat's Form". You fail to respond to my posts correctly, especially when I call into your lack of evidence. You do not justify anything either.

To claim that I'm at a loss here is ridiculous when it's completely obvious that you have no case, and I destroyed whatever little assumptions you had.



No, no. You must've misunderstood (as seems to be the case), I don't care if the thread is about Juyo. I'm expressing my disagreement with the rankings of Niman, and the theories that preside with it. Just because it got "off topic" doesn't mean I cannot still talk about it as half threads go into another direction (discussing x vs y, then it turns into x vs z). And I also can and will disagree and argue against things that:

1.) Aren't true.
2.) Are heavily unsupported.

In any case, obviously no one knows enough about the subject to answer your question properly, so quit pressing it.

You tore up nothing, as said, IN THEORY, it SHOULD be better, but this is Star Wars where things don't have to make sense. A balanced form would give you an edge on the battlefield, you're capable of fighting all enemies, instead of just 1 type, (Soresu=Lots of Blasters, Makashi=1 Lightsaber etc etc) My theory doesn't need to be supported, in a more "Real Life" situation, it is superior to all others, an even ability at killing everything

Muahah Krieger ..I got to agree with teh lady ..

Heyyyy Secretus, your back! Man, have I missed you.

Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
I think it's more than pure coincidence that all the Niman users were killed. Niman attempts to balance all the forms, and while it seems good, you don't master at any particular thing.

It's a still good form though.

I believe that no form is greater than the other. I mean, if Ataru or Shien or Shii-Cho was the best form, why don't all the Jedi learn that from a beginning age. That's why I believe the lightsabers form make Triangles.

Vapaad <,=,> Ataru

Makashi-Soresu-Shien form a triangle:

Soresu > Shien > Makashi > Soresu

I AM NOT SURE but I believe Shii-Cho-Niman-Jar'Kai form a triangle:

Shii-Cho < Jar'Kai < Niman < Shii-Cho

Finally in NJO, I believe the Fast-Medium-Strong Triangle is this:

Fast > Medium > Strong > Fast

Not that I necessarily disagree with it, but if I may, I would like to know how you came up with this.