Who's the best swordsman?

Decay

besides the obvious luke yoda and sidious id go with dooku, and i know it wont be popular but maul. i dont think dooku needs any explaination, but maul had dedicated himself to being the best duelist in the history of the jedi and sith.

i dont think he made it quite that far, but in pure skill with a saber maul would have to be very high on the list, his big failing was his lack of strategy. while he could stand toe to toe with almost anyone with a saber, he doesnt seem to think of anything beyond the duel, his environment and any real plan dont come into his style, he is just out to prove he has the most skill. someone like obi wan in rots could hold on long enough and take good advantage of his weakness, but wouldnt be that much better in pure saber skills i dont think.

other than that rots vader was good enough to take on dooku and win, and depending on the scource was in the same league as yoda and sidious although not in force mastery.

as much as i hate him mace is supposed to be almost as good as dooku, although he never really did anything other than debatably defeat sidious in a pure saber duel, and take the head off jango after hed been trampled and had his jet back damaged.

over all the answer is probably luke, hes just that far ahead of everyone in force powers. followed by yoda and sidious.

Sith Lord Windu

i think that its (arguably) mace from the movies and from the EU its luke.

Lightsnake

Luke>any one else. Exar, Palpatine, Kyp, Kyle, Jacen, Jaina, Yoda, Mace, Depa, Dooku...they're up there.
Kit, Saesee and Agen were three of the top Jedi duelists as well

Jen'ari

The top dog is Luke. Then you have Palpatine, Kyle, Kun and Ulic. Then the rest - Yoda, Mace, Dooku, Anakin, Jacen, Vodo etc.
Also, if you include other factors, Sion, Krayt and Bane etc. are up there too, though I suppose this is only based on dueling ability in which case they're pretty much unknowns.

Lightsnake

Why in the name of all that is holy would Kyle, Kun or Ulic be above Yoda, Mace, Anakin or Dooku?

Jen'ari

lol, Just refer to Advent's post on Kyle. Ulic was able to stalemate a jedi while having been four years out of practise and cut off from the force, and Kun was pretty much on par with him + he had his unique style and saber which makes him even better.

Escape81

Originally posted by Jen'ari
lol, Just refer to Advent's post on Kyle. Ulic was able to stalemate a jedi while having been four years out of practise and cut off from the force, and Kun was pretty much on par with him + he had his unique style and saber which makes him even better.

Kun and Yoda are on par. NJO Kyle may be enough to defeat Yoda - but he would have one hell of a time. Especially in an all out fight, where Yoda would probably just wipe him out with the Force.

Yoda's good like that. no expression

Jen'ari

Yoda is good, don't get me wrong but I think he's slightly overrated. I mean what does he really achieve with all that flashy jumping and spinning etc? - He's never able to beat Sidious or Dooku.

And after seeing Advent's posts about Kyle, he seems not too far from Luke.

Lightsnake

Yoda was the best swordsman the Jedi order had ever seen by that point. No overrating.

And OMG, Ulic held a blinded with rage Jedi of no skills to speak of off, so?

And Kyle's far from Luke. The NJO made it clear he's the strongest being in the SW galaxy, far and away.

Darth Sexy

How in the world would would NJO Kyle>Kun?

ESB Vader

Originally posted by Lightsnake

And Kyle's far from Luke. The NJO made it clear he's the strongest being in the SW galaxy, far and away.

agreed but not stronger than anakin at his peak.
hmm simple answer to what you will ask

yea ok GL said luke became what anakin should have become, hmm that means strongest jedi?
yup u guessed it.

and didnt GL say that if anakin had achieved his full potential he would have become the strongest force user who ever lived?

the word "who ever lived".

Jen'ari

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yoda was the best swordsman the Jedi order had ever seen by that point. No overrating.

And OMG, Ulic held a blinded with rage Jedi of no skills to speak of off, so?

And Kyle's far from Luke. The NJO made it clear he's the strongest being in the SW galaxy, far and away.

1. Could you provide the exact quote because I'm pretty sure it could be fallible. If not, I still don't buy it.

2. Sylvar was exceptional. She was able to floor three stronger primitive Massasi with just her hands (granted she did have sharp Cathar claws) and was able to sneak up on Oss Wilum and knock him to the ground with just her saber hilt. She was also able to defeat Kun when they were both training under Vodo Siosk-Bass in saber combat. She was skilled. She was also very aggresive during their fight which would have made it especially hard to fed her off without killing her.

Ulic was also four years out of practise and cut off from the force, now the way The Exile describes makes it seem as if a jedi is virtually powerless without the force, yet Ulic was still able to pull this off.

3. Regarding saber combat, I always thought that they were pretty close.

Darth Sexy

Jen'ari

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
For the last time, and Sama already destroyed your attempts at arguing this, Sylvar was an average Jedi at best, so stop saying she was exceptional. Sylvar was NOTHING ok?

Sorry, but those points I made shows that she is exceptional. Do you even undestand how strong those Massasi who she killed were? Sadow's weaker Massasi were able to kill ancient sith lords (granted in numbers) yet she was able to floor three of Kun's stronger Massasi in seconds without a saber. The points at least show that she was above people such as Oss Wilum, who was actually described as 'exceptional' by the omniscient narrator. She was exceptional, you can't argue against that.

ESB Vader

Originally posted by Jen'ari
Sorry, but those points I made shows that she is exceptional. Do you even undestand how strong those Massasi who she killed were? Sadow's weaker Massasi were able to kill ancient sith lords (granted in numbers) yet she was able to floor three of Kun's stronger Massasi in seconds without a saber. The points at least show that she was above people such as Oss Wilum, who was actually described as 'exceptional' by the omniscient narrator. She was exceptional, you can't argue against that.

and what are you trying to argue about here?

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Jen'ari
1. Could you provide the exact quote because I'm pretty sure it could be fallible. If not, I still don't buy it.

2. Sylvar was exceptional. She was able to floor three stronger primitive Massasi with just her hands (granted she did have sharp Cathar claws) and was able to sneak up on Oss Wilum and knock him to the ground with just her saber hilt. She was also able to defeat Kun when they were both training under Vodo Siosk-Bass in saber combat. She was skilled. She was also very aggresive during their fight which would have made it especially hard to fed her off without killing her.

Ulic was also four years out of practise and cut off from the force, now the way The Exile describes makes it seem as if a jedi is virtually powerless without the force, yet Ulic was still able to pull this off.

3. Regarding saber combat, I always thought that they were pretty close.
1. Power of the Jedi, Yoda is declared the best duelist the Order has seen. And he's on part with, if not superior to Sidious. You have ANY proof for him being overrated?

2. Stronger MAsassi? Massassi were pathetic! OMG, she killed three Massassi with claws in a berserker rage! She hit...OSs Willum, a guy with only a few years of training! And she able to BRAVELY and STRONGLY sneak up on him, WOW! Able to defeat Kun in saber combat? Liar. And OMG, Ulic held her off for all of a MINUTE! WOW!
And I don't care what bullshit the Exile goes on about, Ulic's condition contradicts any of Kreia's viewpoints.

3. And what you think is Star Wars canon, hm?

kamikz

Originally posted by ESB Vader
agreed but not stronger than anakin at his peak.
hmm simple answer to what you will ask

yea ok GL said luke became what anakin should have become, hmm that means strongest jedi?
yup u guessed it.

and didnt GL say that if anakin had achieved his full potential he would have become the strongest force user who ever lived?

the word "who ever lived".

What the? He said "what Anakin would be", in potential, not only as a jedi. They have the SAME potential, how could Anakin become more powerful if they have the same potential? From what we know, Luke got far more advanced techniques and shit after the Vong, being able to reach WHOLE NEW LEVELS of the force.

And stronger than whoever lived was BEFORE LUKE WAS BORN, point moot!

Jen'ari

Originally posted by Lightsnake
1. Power of the Jedi, Yoda is declared the best duelist the Order has seen. And he's on part with, if not superior to Sidious. You have ANY proof for him being overrated?

2. Stronger MAsassi? Massassi were pathetic! OMG, she killed three Massassi with claws in a berserker rage! She hit...OSs Willum, a guy with only a few years of training! And she able to BRAVELY and STRONGLY sneak up on him, WOW! Able to defeat Kun in saber combat? Liar. And OMG, Ulic held her off for all of a MINUTE! WOW!
And I don't care what bullshit the Exile goes on about, Ulic's condition contradicts any of Kreia's viewpoints.

3. And what you think is Star Wars canon, hm?

1. Page number please. It was also most likely referring to the order since its reformation after Ruusan anyway. And he is pretty overrated, just look at when he fights the Count, all that jumping and spinning and wild slashing and he achieves nothing - the Count is able to handle it fine and Yoda ends up the more tired of the two imo. Yet people claim that he owned Dooku when he clearly didn't. In fact, I would go so far as to say that Dooku was a better swordsman than Yoda.

2. No they were not. Weaker Massasi were able to assassinate ancient sith lords. They were pretty strong. Oss Wilum, that guy with only a few years of training (proof for that btw) was claimed by the omniscient narrator to be 'exceptional'. And she did defeat Exar Kun when they were students in DLOTS. Not really, I'd say Ulic was suffering just as much as The Exile.

3. *misses Lightsnake's point*

Jen'ari

Originally posted by ESB Vader
and what are you trying to argue about here?

no expression

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Jen'ari
1. Page number please. It was also most likely referring to the order since its reformation after Ruusan anyway. And he is pretty overrated, just look at when he fights the Count, all that jumping and spinning and wild slashing and he achieves nothing - the Count is able to handle it fine and Yoda ends up the more tired of the two imo. Yet people claim that he owned Dooku when he clearly didn't. In fact, I would go so far as to say that Dooku was a better swordsman than Yoda.

2. No they were not. Weaker Massasi were able to assassinate ancient sith lords. They were pretty strong. Oss Wilum, that guy with only a few years of training (proof for that btw) was claimed by the omniscient narrator to be 'exceptional'. And she did defeat Exar Kun when they were students in DLOTS. Not really, I'd say Ulic was suffering just as much as The Exile.

3. *misses Lightsnake's point*

1. It's in Yoda's section. Oh, and 'most likely referring to....' Lucas also called the PT the Prime of the Jedi in regards to fighting. Oh, and last I checked, he beat Dooku completely. What happened in the scene>Your opinion of it. Dooku acknolwedges his loss and in Dark Rendevous, Yoda beats him AGAIN. So, no! You're wrong! Yoda> Dooku and this is expressly stated in the books and novelization.
Oh, Yoda was also the most skilled Jedi in, y'know, their prime in regards to fighting. To quote the AOTC comic adaptation: "Yoda shows why he is considered the most powerful Jedi...and Dooku realizes he is not the strongest after all."
And the script makes it clear Yoda dominated Dooku

2. Prove they were weaker. Thanks! Oh, and in TOTJ KOTOR, Oss says he's been training for a few years with Thon! And Massassi killed distracted Sith Lords busy with battle who trusted them! OMG! When was Oss claimed to be exceptional now? And where'd she beat Kun? Last I checked she slashed his face and ended up on her face before Vodo stopped Kun from killing her. Try again.

Sith Lord Windu

Originally posted by kamikz
What the? He said "what Anakin would be", in potential, not only as a jedi. They have the SAME potential, how could Anakin become more powerful if they have the same potential? From what we know, Luke got far more advanced techniques and shit after the Vong, being able to reach WHOLE NEW LEVELS of the force.

And stronger than whoever lived was BEFORE LUKE WAS BORN, point moot!

anakin was the chosen one and as GL stated, him being the chosen one, that he had the most potential of any jedi in the past, the present or future, a.k.a. EVER.

luke was more skilled than the movie anakin but he wasn't hacked up into pieces and put back together in a suit that hampered movements and force abilities.

if it was anakin in lukes place then anakin would, in theory, be better in the ways of the force and at fighting.

ESB Vader

Originally posted by Sith Lord Windu
i think that its (arguably) mace from the movies and from the EU its luke.

agreed, id say mace can beat any sith lord in a pure saber duel match

Lightsnake

ESB Vader

Originally posted by Lightsnake
GL also said Luke has the same potential. So 'in theory', Luke's strong as FPA

i want to see the exact quote, GL did say luke took the role of most powerful jedi, which anakin should have become BUT gl mentioned FPA is the strongest user who ever lived, that means luke by lotf.

luke only took over that role of being most powerful, already lucas stated anakin would be stronger than any1 had he achieved his full potential.

Lightsnake

And he stated Luke and Ano have the same potential.
Vanity Fair. DVD commentary.

Jen'ari

'It's in Yoda's section.'

Nope. I just checked, nothing of the sort. It actually goes as far to question whether he was the best PT jedi - 'perhaps only Master Mace Windu equaled him in skill and reputation'

'Oh, and 'most likely referring to....' Lucas also called the PT the Prime of the Jedi in regards to fighting.'

I'm not even sure why you're bringing this up now but you know that there are many people who believe that Lucas used the term a bit too casually to be looked into so much. He also said it in a very vague way and the terms itself is pretty ambiguous. The context that he used the term in also leads me to believe that he was disregarding the EU and only considering the movies as the whole video was based around choreography. Don't you also find it odd that the strongest order of jedi would be one in which the most popular form was Niman, the diplomat's form?

'Oh, and last I checked, he beat Dooku completely. What happened in the scene>Your opinion of it.'

Lmao, talk about self pwnage. You saying that Yoda beat Dooku completely is an opinion itself, and what actually happened is that neither Yoda or Dooku was the victor. Please, that view is completely asinine and you know it.

'Dooku acknowledges his loss'

When? Source?

'Dark Rendezvous, Yoda beats him AGAIN. So, no! You're wrong! Yoda> Dooku and this is expressly stated in the books and novelization.'

Dooku was incredibly emotionally conflicted and it was still a stalemate.

'Oh, Yoda was also the most skilled Jedi in, y'know, their prime in regards to fighting. To quote the AOTC comic adaptation: "Yoda shows why he is considered the most powerful Jedi...and Dooku realizes he is not the strongest after all."'

1. It's debatable that he was the most skilled, and I've already given my views on the 'Prime of the Jedi' video.

2. Key word = 'considered'. Dooku probably was realising he is not the strongest in regards to the force as well, not just primarily saber combat. But please provide more than just the quote on its own so I can determine the context that the quote is given in.

'And the script makes it clear Yoda dominated Dooku'

The final version of the script differs to the movie, and is therefor not canon.

'Prove they were weaker. Thanks!'

'The purpose of Naga Sadow's alchemy was to create a race of warriors to forever stand guard over his legacy. His work proved more than sufficient.. The Massasi are no longer as intelligent or civilised as their ancient sith ancestors... But they use the dark side of the force to guide and control their primitive weapon.' - page of issue of DLOTS.

Clearly Naga Sadow didn't consider the original Massasi good enough warriors to properly protect his legacy, so he alchemically turned them into Massasi more fit to protect his legacy. Now he clearly improved them in some way, what other way would there be other than strength and power to make them more able to protect his 'legacy'.

'Oh, and in TOTJ KOTOR, Oss says he's been training for a few years with Thon!'

5 years actually. And guess what: Thon wasn't his first master. he was originally apprenticed to Master Garnoo - source - Power of the Jedi Sourcebook.

'And Massassi killed distracted Sith Lords busy with battle who trusted them!'

The ancient sith lords that we see get killed had more than enough time to act, they even acknowledge the fact that their Massasi have turned on them. And the Massasi used their bare hands as well. Oh and so what that they trusted them. I doubt betrayal was that alien to them, especially considering they lived in a time where 'rebellion and civil war were common'. Face it the Massasi were incredible, ther could even use the dark side of the force and they were incredibly physically strong - what Sylvar did was incredible.

'When was Oss claimed to be exceptional now?'

'To liberate Onderon, jedi master Arca assembled an exceptional band of young jedi knights. Dace Diath, Tott Doneeta... Oss Wilum. A Vultan, student of Master Thon of Ambria. In his youth, Oss apprenticed to ancient Neti Master Garnoo who passed on before Oss completed his training.'

'And where'd she beat Kun?'

They were both sparring and Exar Kun was probably winning, but he was taunting her as well, so she tapped into the dark side and slashed his face. I'd call that a defeat, even though she failed the real test Vodo had for her.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Jen'ari
'It's in Yoda's section.'

Nope. I just checked, nothing of the sort. It actually goes as far to question whether he was the best PT jedi - 'perhaps only Master Mace Windu equaled him in skill and reputation'

'Oh, and 'most likely referring to....' Lucas also called the PT the Prime of the Jedi in regards to fighting.'

I'm not even sure why you're bringing this up now but you know that there are many people who believe that Lucas used the term a bit too casually to be looked into so much. He also said it in a very vague way and the terms itself is pretty ambiguous. The context that he used the term in also leads me to believe that he was disregarding the EU and only considering the movies as the whole video was based around choreography. Don't you also find it odd that the strongest order of jedi would be one in which the most popular form was Niman, the diplomat's form?

'Oh, and last I checked, he beat Dooku completely. What happened in the scene>Your opinion of it.'

Lmao, talk about self pwnage. You saying that Yoda beat Dooku completely is an opinion itself, and what actually happened is that neither Yoda or Dooku was the victor. Please, that view is completely asinine and you know it.

'Dooku acknowledges his loss'

When? Source?

'Dark Rendezvous, Yoda beats him AGAIN. So, no! You're wrong! Yoda> Dooku and this is expressly stated in the books and novelization.'

Dooku was incredibly emotionally conflicted and it was still a stalemate.

'Oh, Yoda was also the most skilled Jedi in, y'know, their prime in regards to fighting. To quote the AOTC comic adaptation: "Yoda shows why he is considered the most powerful Jedi...and Dooku realizes he is not the strongest after all."And the script makes it clear Yoda dominated Dooku'

The final version of the script differs to the movie, and is therefor not canon.

'Prove they were weaker. Thanks!'

'The purpose of Naga Sadow's alchemy was to create a race of warriors to forever stand guard over his legacy. His work proved more than sufficient.. The Massasi are no longer as intelligent or civilised as their ancient sith ancestors... But they use the dark side of the force to guide and control their primitive weapon.' - page of issue of DLOTS.

Clearly Naga Sadow didn't consider the original Massasi good enough warriors to properly protect his legacy, so he alchemically turned them into Massasi more fit to protect his legacy. Now he clearly improved them in some way, what other way would there be other than strength and power to make them more able to protect his 'legacy'.

'Oh, and in TOTJ KOTOR, Oss says he's been training for a few years with Thon!'

5 years actually. And guess what: Thon wasn't his first master. he was originally apprenticed to Master Garnoo - source - Power of the Jedi Sourcebook.

'And Massassi killed distracted Sith Lords busy with battle who trusted them!'

The ancient sith lords that we see get killed had more than enough time to act, they even acknowledge the fact that their Massasi have turned on them. And the Massasi used their bare hands as well. Oh and so what that they trusted them. I doubt betrayal was that alien to them, especially considering they lived in a time where 'rebellion and civil war were common'. Face it the Massasi were incredible, ther could even use the dark side of the force and they were incredibly physically strong - what Sylvar did was incredible.

'When was Oss claimed to be exceptional now?'

'To liberate, jedi master Arca assembled an exceptional band of young jedi knights. Dace Diath, Tott Doneeta... Oss Wilum. A Vultan, student of Master Thon of Ambria. In his youth, Oss apprenticed to ancient Neti Master Garnoo who passed on before Oss completed his training.'

'And where'd she beat Kun?'

They were both sparring and Exar Kun was probably winning, but he was taunting her as well, so she tapped into the dark side and slashed his face. I'd call that a defeat, even though she failed the real test Vodo had for her.

1. We're talking 'bout the sourcebook, right? And In the NEC, Yoda is mentioned to have destroyed an entire army of droids. with ease. And Legacy of the Jedi. And AOTC novel. And ROTS novel. and it's 'perhaps', key word, or did you miss that? Since Mace, y'know, freely admits he's beneath Yoda

2. I don't care what those people believed. It's not ambiguous. He said it was their prime in regards to fighting. Lucas always disregards the EU, big deal. And can you prove that Jedi in the past didn't use the diplomat's form as much? You need to master Niman to master Jar'Krai after all.

3. Except that Yoda beat Dooku is backed up in the novelization, script AND books, thanks for playing.

4. Dark Rendevous, ever read it?

5. A stalemate? Dooku is completely beaten and runs away. Oh, and Yoda was catching a woman with the force and facing a planet heavily on the darkside. Nice try, though. Oh, ROTs novelization, too...calls Yoda the strongest foe the darkness had ever known.

6. Ooooh, no, sorry! Scripts are canon and it shows Yoda won!

7. We;re supposed to care about 'your views' on the video? Lucas said it, case closed.

8. How much more contextual do you want it? "Dooku realizes he is not the strongest Jedi after all." And "Yoda shows why he is considered the strongest Jedi."
And last I checked, this is when they were fighting with, y'know, sabers.

9. Prove the Massassi were stornger. Thanks.

10. Massassi used their bare hands? This is why we see them, y'know, using knives? Massassi were canon fodder. Time to prove up. The super battle droids were incredible too, I guess. Simply bleating on about how the massassi were incredible...well, you're disregarding Advent who owned every Sylvar argument. When Massassi are shown as anything more than pathetic canon fodder...and when did the Sith Lrods have time 'to react?' Making stuff up again? We just see Naga saying 'the Massassi will deal with it' then a few images of the Sith Lords getting killed on one ship...one with a knife in his head. And last I checked the Massassi on Yavin hadn't had any fights in...how long? four hundred years at least? Meaning that sort of crap means nothing, thanks again.

11. and Oss was a padawan when Garnoo died. Thanks.

12. An exceptional band. Point being? This isn't calling Oss exceptional.

13. OMG, she SLASHED EXAR'S FACE! Never mind he put her on her ass a mere panel later, I'll believe what I want! Give it a rest, this is like saying that since Luke got a hit on Vader, he won even when Vader sliced his hand off a second later.

14.

kamikz

Originally posted by Sith Lord Windu
anakin was the chosen one and as GL stated, him being the chosen one, that he had the most potential of any jedi in the past, the present or future, a.k.a. EVER.

luke was more skilled than the movie anakin but he wasn't hacked up into pieces and put back together in a suit that hampered movements and force abilities.

if it was anakin in lukes place then anakin would, in theory, be better in the ways of the force and at fighting.

How does being the chosen one effect anything on his potential? Right, it doesn't, and GL never said it did..... And he said he would be the most powerful jedi in history, but history is the past. Ever is at the present, like if we would say Einstine is the smartest man ever or smartest in history, doesn't mean no one will surpass him....

Uh, does it matter? No one has said anything about that, we are all talking about FP aren't we?

No...

Advent

EDIT: Nvm.

Lightsnake

Yeah, I think I'm done here too

Escape81

Note: Yoda defeated Count Dooku in combat, while defending Lady Malreaux (who was tossed out of a window by Dooku) and, while they were on Vjun - a world steeped in the Dark Side.

Dooku lost against a half-distracted Yoda on a Dark Side world. In an all out fight, akin to AotC - he'd lose again.

Jen'ari

True. Whatever, I'll concede on the Yoda/Dooku point.

Darth Volter

anakin was the chosen one and as GL stated, him being the chosen one, that he had the most potential of any jedi in the past, the present or future, a.k.a. EVER.
Originally posted by Sith Lord Windu
luke was more skilled than the movie anakin but he wasn't hacked up into pieces and put back together in a suit that hampered movements and force abilities.

if it was anakin in lukes place then anakin would, in theory, be better in the ways of the force and at fighting.

i strongly agree with that... i bet if anakin wasnt rebuilt like a semi cyborg, he could beat Luke

Tangible God

Well he WAS supposed to be twice as powerful as Sdious at HIS max, so... yeah probably.

Lightsnake

I'm getting the issue number where Lucas confirms Luke's potential=Anakin's

Darth Volter

then it is unknown how the battle will end?

ESB Vader

Originally posted by Lightsnake
And he stated Luke and Ano have the same potential.
Vanity Fair. DVD commentary.

tell me the EXACT quote

and sidious mentioned vader is 80% of him. that means half of FPA is it?

and i read in the rodv novel it said this
page 330-
"there would be a day however, when they will become equals"

that meant sidious and vader

Lightsnake

Lucas said that, not Vader.

And those were Vader's thoughts. He needed an apprentice. Luke is Anakin in terms of potential

ESB Vader

nah it was coming from the writer not vaders thoughts, note there were 2 pages saying this, 1 page was vader thinking the other is a summary of what the writer wrote.

thats like saying "o njo luke is powerful because he did this and that but lucas didnt say so"

"they would become equals"

notice the word "they" that means it didnt come from vader or sidious

Lightsnake

No, it was Vader's toughts, I've read RoDV. Luca said Vader could only become 80 percent of Palpatine, so end story there.
Vader was THINKING they;d become equals, that was all

Darth Volter

i still believe anakin could beat luke i mean, if he wouldve not fallen to the magma. palp even said while fighting with yoda: "my apprentice will one day become more powerful than both of us!" or something like that the point is anakin would become more powerful than yoda and sidious with their combined powers one day that surely kicks luke's ass

Lightsnake

Luke DID become stronge than them....MUCH stronger

yettoh

it says on wikepedia that kyles saber skills supass skywalkers

ESB Vader

Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, it was Vader's toughts, I've read RoDV. Luca said Vader could only become 80 percent of Palpatine, so end story there.
Vader was THINKING they;d become equals, that was all

um 1 of them was from vaders thoughts yes i agree but page 330 is from the write "there would be a day however when THEY would become equals" that proves that page was from the writer, not vader.

Lightsnake

I fail to see how the 'they' means it's not Vader's thoughts...

Sith Lord Windu

that section of the book makes it seem that its the writers thoughts. my evidence is that it says "he" and never says "thought" in the enitre section. therefor i deduce that its the writers thoughts.

Lightsnake

Hm, are you incapable of deciphering literature?
'Vader continued on to the end of bridge walkway, thinking

And once again: Lucas's words that Luceno was aware of.

Darth Volter

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Luke DID become stronge than them....MUCH stronger

i meant anakin... palp told yoda that anakin would become stronger than both of them

Lightsnake

That's not a good indicator that Anakin>Luke at their fullest

ESB Vader

Originally posted by Lightsnake
No, it was Vader's toughts, I've read RoDV. Luca said Vader could only become 80 percent of Palpatine, so end story there.
Vader was THINKING they;d become equals, that was all

did you read my post? do you want me to send you a copy of the page where it said "they would be equals"

"they" refers to vader and his homo husband sidious.

as i said there were 2 pages, 1 from vaders thoughts the other from the AUTHOR or the writer w/e.

ESB Vader

sry for double post, GL mentioned that if vader didnt get injuries then he would be twice as strong right? if anakin = luke or so you claim then isnt vader half of FPA which vader is also half as powerful as NJO luke?

well the mechanical vader to me is the most badass villian inSW

Lightsnake

Um, except it's contradicted by Lucas, since he said Vader only ever became 80 percent of Sidious.

I read RodV...it's Vader's tHOUGHTS...notice how it says 'Vader thinks' and then goes into that? It's from Vader' POV and this is not arguable. You're wrong, accept it.

And Luke's potential=Anakin's

ESB Vader

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Um, except it's contradicted by Lucas, since he said Vader only ever became 80 percent of Sidious.

I read RodV...it's Vader's tHOUGHTS...notice how it says 'Vader thinks' and then goes into that? It's from Vader' POV and this is not arguable. You're wrong, accept it.

And Luke's potential=Anakin's

no your wrong, as i said there are 2 pages and some of us have already broke your arguements, how can "they" come from vaders thoughts?

1 was from vaders thoughts the other from the author, accept it lightsnake.

He was also married to Sidious, who doled out precious bits of Sith technique as if merely lending them—just enough to increase his apprentice's power, without making him supremely powerful.

There would come a day, however, when they would be equals.

He scanned the stars, looking forward to a time when he could find an apprentice of his own and, together with that one, topple Darth Sidious from his throne.

It gave him something to live for.'

thats directly from the book

Sith Lord Windu

Originally posted by ESB Vader
vader and his homo husband sidious.

inloveinloveinloveinloveinloveinloveinlove

Lightsnake

Originally posted by ESB Vader
no your wrong, as i said there are 2 pages and some of us have already broke your arguements, how can "they" come from vaders thoughts?

1 was from vaders thoughts the other from the author, accept it lightsnake.

He was also married to Sidious, who doled out precious bits of Sith technique as if merely lending them—just enough to increase his apprentice's power, without making him supremely powerful.

There would come a day, however, when they would be equals.

He scanned the stars, looking forward to a time when he could find an apprentice of his own and, together with that one, topple Darth Sidious from his throne.

It gave him something to live for.'

thats directly from the book

Lesse...because it's Vader's thoughts that they would be equal and it says just before that 'Vader THOUGHT' just before that little passage.

And Lucas's OWN WORDS say Vader was never strong as Sidious.

Sorry

Sith Lord Windu

yeh. vader was not as strong as sid's.

Akira99

I heard that as far as the books have gone Jacen would be the greatest swordsman ever, greater or on par with the great Luke.
Aside from then I don't know

ESB Vader

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Lesse...because it's Vader's thoughts that they would be equal and it says just before that 'Vader THOUGHT' just before that little passage.

And Lucas's OWN WORDS say Vader was never strong as Sidious.

Sorry

sorry that passage came AFTER vaders thoughts

vaders thoughts = pg 319
authors saying of equals =pg 330

there i broke your arguements again

and GL mentioned AS ANAKIN SKYWALKER being vader presuit form, he was 80% of sidious. if u want me to ill show you that exact quote.

OT VADER on the other hand is STRONGER than anakin skywalker in ep3,
he mastered crush, grip and he has far more experience than being presuit in ROTS.

so wouldnt that make him more than 80%, as he was as anakin skywalker?
OT vader is much stronger than anakin skywalker and his powers are greater.

so my theory is thats why james luceno said they would be equals one day.

and vader is agile, advent mentioned a flashback of vader and yes i checked it, he fought with a sword quite agile in crimson empire.

Lightsnake

Nope, sorry, it says 'Vader thinks' before that passage.
This is Vader's POV, there is no question, stop being an idiot.

And the quote was that if Anakin hadn't gotten burned, he'd have been twice as powerful. Since he was burned, he was only eighty percent as powerful.

So, sorry, but you're wrong. Everything confirms Palpatine>Vader. Vader's thoughts don't contradict over ten years of Lucas's words and established Star Wars lore.

Get some literary skills. Luceno had characters thinking without expressely saying it all the time. Was it Luceno's thoughts Sypho-Dyas was a fool or Dooku's? Was it Luceno's viewpoint or Palpatine's that sleeping was a mistake?

There goes your pitiful little argument.

ESB Vader

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Nope, sorry, it says 'Vader thinks' before that passage.
This is Vader's POV, there is no question, stop being an idiot.

And the quote was that if Anakin hadn't gotten burned, he'd have been twice as powerful. Since he was burned, he was only eighty percent as powerful.

So, sorry, but you're wrong. Everything confirms Palpatine>Vader. Vader's thoughts don't contradict over ten years of Lucas's words and established Star Wars lore.

Get some literary skills. Luceno had characters thinking without expressely saying it all the time. Was it Luceno's thoughts Sypho-Dyas was a fool or Dooku's? Was it Luceno's viewpoint or Palpatine's that sleeping was a mistake?

There goes your pitiful little argument.

1. yes vaders thoughts were before that page and u changed your words, you said it was after the authors thoughts. ur arguement on this one is broken

2. that quote was before the suit as presuit vader, i can prove it to you.
GL said "as anakin skywalker, darthvader is roughly 80% of the emperor" and clearly OT vader is much stronger than presuit vader in ROTS.

3"I fail to see how the 'they' means it's not Vader's thoughts..."
-lightsnake
then you are being a fanboy, do you understand english? its the writers thoughts on that page.

how can vader think "they would be equals" who is the other "they"?
the obvious answer is that it came from the author james luceno.
there, that again breaks your arguement its not vaders thoughts on THAT page. page 330.

vaders thoughts is 319.

lightsnake stop being an idiot on page 330 it never ever fu*king ever says vader thinks they would be equals, thats page 319

Jen'ari

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_indirect_speech
http://www.litencyc.com/php/stopics.php?rec=true&UID=444

^I suggest reading up Vader.

ESB Vader

and what are you trying to prove?
i still fail to see how "they" came from vaders thoughts

the links you put there prove what u said earlier but one thing,
it still doesnt mean the writer indirectly wrote vaders thoughts.

well i conclude one thing, the writer himself only him believes vader would be equals with sidious but well ill break my own arguement and go with lucas words, 80% os sidious

Lightsnake

No, the author doesn't believe anything of the sort.

Yeah, could Vader POSSIBLY be referring to himself and Sidious as 'they' indirectly? I mean after the he? Perhaps Luke thinking 'he knew THEY needed to...'

and all the like? It was Vader's thoughts, get over it.

And I find it rich you can't even string coherent grammar and spelling together but you accuse me of not understanding grammar.

jollyjim311

So, Lightsnake, you think James Luceno put that line in his book just to be wrong? He could've wrote that Sidious will always be a step ahead of Vader, but he didn't. He put that in the book, and don't argue who's opinion it is, it's in there for a reason.

Archangelysses

James Luceno worked very closely with Matthew Stover and George Lucas to make sure that labyrinth of evil and Rise of Darth Vader tied in perfectly with Episode iii so that these novels formed a trilogy in themselves to show Anakin as a Jedi Knight followed by the fall and then the rise of Anakin as a Sith Lord.

I believe that it was written exactly the way that it was meant to be. That Vader, no matter that he was no longer able to achieve the heights of power that he could have, would still in time grow to be stronger than Sidious.

Lightsnake

What the hell? No, it's Vader's THOUGHTS and Lucas has CONFIRMED that Vader was only ever 80 percent of Sidious.

Sidious>Vader. Case. Is. Closed

Advent

"However, after all of his limbs were severed and he was extremely burned on Mustafar he lost much of his Force potential. As Darth Vader, Anakin was believed to have had roughly 80% of the strength of the Emperor. Had he sustained none of his injuries on Mustafar he would have been twice as powerful."

-- George Lucas.

Now, it does say "was believed", but it's pretty clearly put that Lucas is telling us that Vader will not be on par with Sidious.

Sith Lord Windu

why did lucas say "As Darth Vader, Anakin was believed to have had roughly 80% of the strength of the Emperor." surly if lucas said that in person then he would know the exact percentage, do you have a link to wherte the quote was published?

Quinlan_Vos

ROTS Anakin > Count Dooku
ESB Vader > or = Count Dooku (80% of Sidious is Dooku)

Advent

Originally posted by Sith Lord Windu
why did lucas say "As Darth Vader, Anakin was believed to have had roughly 80% of the strength of the Emperor." surly if lucas said that in person then he would know the exact percentage, do you have a link to wherte the quote was published?

Why would Lucas say "Oh yes, Vader is 78.2334687% of Sidious' own power"? Ridiculous.

"He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor-- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

-- George Lucas, Rolling Stones, June 2, 2005.

The source for the other quote is in another Rolling Stones interview, I believe. Though, it's not as if there's a link for every article ever written, now is there.

Sith Lord Windu

no what i ment is that he could have said "i say that he is 80% of the emporer" or " he is 3/4 of the palpatine" not "its belived".

ok about the link though.

Just off topic, mainly out of couriosity, why do you change you sig' all the time?

Advent

I don't know, lol. I just like, get bored very quickly looking at the same thing day after day.

Escape81

Originally posted by Advent
I don't know, lol. I just like, get bored very quickly looking at the same thing day after day.

Are you not talking to me anymore? sad

Advent

Um, do I know you? stick out tongue

Of course I'm still talking to my wonderful, sweet, spectacular, appealing, luscious, gnarly, marvelous, delicate, perfect paramour. love

ESB Vader

Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
ROTS Anakin > Count Dooku
ESB Vader > or = Count Dooku (80% of Sidious is Dooku)

OT vader is above ROTS anakin for sure so maybe very close to sidious 90% or maybe 95%

note that lucas said AS anakin skywalker, vader is 80% of sidious

Originally posted by Lightsnake
What the hell? No, it's Vader's THOUGHTS and Lucas has CONFIRMED that Vader was only ever 80 percent of Sidious.

Sidious>Vader. Case. Is. Closed

can you stop being an idiot? it was from the author not the writer and lucas checks on the work done by james luceno.

confirmed anakin is 80% of sidious i didnt hear him say vader in the OT

Advent

Originally posted by ESB Vader
note that lucas said AS anakin skywalker, vader is 80% of sidious

No, it doesn't. It says "However, after all of his limbs were severedand he was extremely burned on Mustafar he lost much of his Force potential. As Darth Vader, Anakin was believed to have had roughly 80% of the strength of the Emperor. Had he sustained none of his injuries on Mustafar he would have been twice as powerful."

Obviously it means Vader after his injuries had only 80% of the power Sidious did. Which means post-suit Vader.

ESB Vader

damm read it wrongly still i am confused by james lucenos comment in rodv of saying "there would come a day however when they would be equals"

notice the word "would" that meant it already happened but that sentence goes head to head with lucas comment about vader, since lucas created vader id say lucas wins,

well i still take james sentence into consideration

Nupe Kill Droma

damn... I'm hesitant to reply since I see you're in on this one, Advent! lol Just kidding! (But you might put that quote in you sig, eh? hehe) Anyway, my vote for greatest duelist goes to Tulak Hord, based on what Kreia says in KOTOR II, stating that later lightsabre wielders were like "children playing with toys," compared to the skills of the ancient Sith lords... Just my 2 cents...

ESB Vader

well we dont know what form he uses but kreia mentioned that the jedi in the old republic era are children playing with toys compared to the old masters which are the ancient sith. considering revan and kreia were good with the sabers and kreia being able to wield 4 sabers in total seems quite good and yet she claims tulak hord is the greatest lightsaber duelist during the ancient times.

dunno if we can compare him to luke kyle or jacen

Nupe Kill Droma

Originally posted by ESB Vader
damm read it wrongly still i am confused by james lucenos comment in rodv of saying "there would come a day however when they would be equals"

notice the word "would" that meant it already happened but that sentence goes head to head with lucas comment about vader, since lucas created vader id say lucas wins,

well i still take james sentence into consideration

(I know this is beyond the scope of the original post in this thread, but...) I don't think that the word, "would," implies that it already happened. I think you might be taking the sentence out of context. Instead, Vader is thinking to himself that one day he would be an equal of Sidious', which would also be the time when he "looked down" on his dead body.

Advent and I argued over this a little, but I think that GL purposely leaves this ambiguous to give us the chance to argue over it (like he does so many other things). Vader is never an equal of Sidious, and never becomes one.

Another note about context: GL was saying the whole "80% of the Emperor" thing in an interview... probably something he rattled off the top of his head. I don't think it was like he sat down and wracked his brain figuring out how powerful Vader is in comparison, and then wrote it into the canon. The fact of the matter is that he's not as powerful, whether he's 80%, 90%, or 99% of the Emperor in strength. Otherwise, he would be the master and not the apprentice.

But, to bring this back to the original post (somewhat), I would argue that Vader is not really a better duelist than Sidious... maybe prior to the suit, but not afterwards. Then again, it probably had been about 20 years since Sidious dueled anyone after Yoda... Perhaps he had gotten rusty? lol wink

ESB Vader

hmm good point, but in terms of sidious vs vader in a saber duel match i would say vader has an advantage using the shien form because of his brute strength, in terms of physical strength vader can crush sidious because of a quote in rodv "he has enough strength in his mechanical hands to crush his lightsaber hilt with ease" something like that

^.~ 1 thing, OT vader is a far greater duelist than ROTS presuit vader, hes slightly slower but has greater strength and he is limited to the shien form, because the OT fights were slow people assume vader is as slow as hell but in a flashback in crimson empire, he seemed agile and fast enough to chop his opponents hands off with a vibro sword.

o ya you also mentioned sidious hasnt dueled any1 after yoda for 20 years so yea its obvious his skills get sloppish and not as good as before, same thing, vader plays with shien form for 19 years and knows its ups and downs,

for saber duel id hand it to TPM sidious who is above DE sid and ROTS sid in terms of saber combat because he stills practises with a saber, after rots its 24 years of not playing with the lightsaber which is the time of DE

Archangelysses

Qui Gon Jinn.

Given that Qui Gon practiced Ataru. and was trained by Dooku who would have sparred with him. Then Qui Gon would have been well aware of Makashi and well prepared to defend/attack it.

If only he had kept the battle on the catwalks rather than that circular room, the battle would have had a different outcome.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by ESB Vader
hmm good point, but in terms of sidious vs vader in a saber duel match i would say vader has an advantage using the shien form because of his brute strength, in terms of physical strength vader can crush sidious because of a quote in rodv "he has enough strength in his mechanical hands to crush his lightsaber hilt with ease" something like that

^.~ 1 thing, OT vader is a far greater duelist than ROTS presuit vader, hes slightly slower but has greater strength and he is limited to the shien form, because the OT fights were slow people assume vader is as slow as hell but in a flashback in crimson empire, he seemed agile and fast enough to chop his opponents hands off with a vibro sword.

o ya you also mentioned sidious hasnt dueled any1 after yoda for 20 years so yea its obvious his skills get sloppish and not as good as before, same thing, vader plays with shien form for 19 years and knows its ups and downs,

for saber duel id hand it to TPM sidious who is above DE sid and ROTS sid in terms of saber combat because he stills practises with a saber, after rots its 24 years of not playing with the lightsaber which is the time of DE

Do you ever have ANY proof of some of the stuff you say?
TPm sidious above DE Sidious as a duelist? Sidious 'didn't practice?' Sidious didn't duel anyone again for 20 years?

False, false and false.

Nupe Kill Droma

Lightsnake, you're right in calling for the proof. My assumption (and I'll leave it as just that) that Sidious hasn't dueled in so long is due to the following: 1.) He loses his sabre in the fight with Yoda (of course, maybe he has a back up.. afterall, he lost a sabre in his duel with Windu), and 2.) we never see him using one again throughout the original trilogy. Did he just not show it? Perhaps. I don't know.

Still, we have to keep in mind that Sidious is running a galaxy and has far too many affairs to attend to than to be practicing his sabre skills with Vader or some other droids. To me, that's difference between Episode 1 Sidious and Episode 4 Sidious. The guy is just flat out busier. lol! Vader, on the other hand, as the "executioner," necessarily practices 1.) to get over the initial awkwardness of the suit, and 2.) because he's the martial hand of the Emperor.

I think that by the time Luke comes on the scene Sidious is so powerful that he doesn't really even need a lightsabre. Of course, the same case could be made for Vader in that he defeated Roan Shryne and Luke (in ESB) by using the Force to hurl objects at those opponents.

Of course, that's all I can really come up with. I'd be interested to know the proof that you can provide that shows that Sidious continued to hone his sabre skills? Or that he had, in fact, gone toe-to-toe in lightsabre combat with anyone after Yoda?

Escape81

Sidious didn't lose his lightsaber with Yoda. For all we know, he simply put it away and opted for long ranged assaults. It makes more sense than an unarmed Sidious escaping from a fully armed Yoda, wouldn't you say?

And, yes. TPM-era Sidious is far more skilled in lightsaber combat than his RotS counterpart, who was thirteen years out of practice.

Edit: And, ESB Vader, quit being retarded. Even 'if' Luceno said that Vader = Sidious, one day, it would be defying canon, which makes him wrong. Anyways, he didn't say it in the first place.

Hate to tell you, but any movie, comic, or EU incarnation of Sidious would annihilate any form of Anakin/Vader (save for full potential Anakin - which never happened).

kamikz

Doesn't the novelisation say that Yoda disarmed Sidious? The script does as well, doesn't it? Well the script at least says that Yoda disarms Sidious, but before he can kill him, Sidious unleashes lightning at him, and Yoda is described to be overpowered and falls of the pod. Not saying this is right, just saying....

Escape81

Originally posted by kamikz
Doesn't the novelisation say that Yoda disarmed Sidious? The script does as well, doesn't it? Well the script at least says that Yoda disarms Sidious, but before he can kill him, Sidious unleashes lightning at him, and Yoda is described to be overpowered and falls of the pod. Not saying this is right, just saying....

Kamikz, we've argued this before.

This is what the "official script" says. According to this section, Yoda pretty much has Palpatine in the bag. He's disarmed him, and when Sidious recovers with a "blast of energy", Yoda turns that against him - and "it looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed."

Notice how it doesn't say anything about this happening, but Sidious curbstomping Yoda off the podium - allowing Sidious to escape. All it says is: "Yoda jumps to a lower level".

The question I posed to Nai, is that if Yoda really was so close to killing Palpatine - and was winning the fight - why would he jump to a lower pod, especially if he is conquering Palpatine in the Force fight?

I believe you can agree that my theory works better. But, neither can be proven.

I can only conclude that Lucas realized that it wouldn't be an "epic" battle if Yoda was going to just curbstomp Palpatine throughout the fight and lose by luck - and he decided to scrap it and make it look more equal.

This was removed from the movie. It's non-canon.

And, you may be right about the book. But I'm not aware of it. The book is the exact opposite of the script - and shows Palpatine curbstomping Yoda.

I like the movie's interpretation. Doesn't make either one appear weak.

Nupe Kill Droma

Escape81, I just went back through the movie and novel, and I have to admit that you are absolutely correct about Sidious not losing his sabre. Good catch!

Nupe Kill Droma

Just caught your most recent post, Escape. After re-reading the fight in the novel (Sidious and Yoda), I think Sidious' "curbstomping" Yoda works better simply because it demonstrates what Yoda was thinking all along: the Jedi had made no progression, no growth, while the Sith had, in fact, evolved. Yoda wasn't really ready to fight Sidious and he knew it. I'm more inclined to go along with the novel on the basis that it doesn't have the limitations that the movie has (especially time constraints for the viewing audience), and can go into much further detail than the movie. But that's just my humble opinion...

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Nupe Kill Droma
Lightsnake, you're right in calling for the proof. My assumption (and I'll leave it as just that) that Sidious hasn't dueled in so long is due to the following: 1.) He loses his sabre in the fight with Yoda (of course, maybe he has a back up.. afterall, he lost a sabre in his duel with Windu), and 2.) we never see him using one again throughout the original trilogy. Did he just not show it? Perhaps. I don't know.

Still, we have to keep in mind that Sidious is running a galaxy and has far too many affairs to attend to than to be practicing his sabre skills with Vader or some other droids. To me, that's difference between Episode 1 Sidious and Episode 4 Sidious. The guy is just flat out busier. lol! Vader, on the other hand, as the "executioner," necessarily practices 1.) to get over the initial awkwardness of the suit, and 2.) because he's the martial hand of the Emperor.

I think that by the time Luke comes on the scene Sidious is so powerful that he doesn't really even need a lightsabre. Of course, the same case could be made for Vader in that he defeated Roan Shryne and Luke (in ESB) by using the Force to hurl objects at those opponents.

Of course, that's all I can really come up with. I'd be interested to know the proof that you can provide that shows that Sidious continued to hone his sabre skills? Or that he had, in fact, gone toe-to-toe in lightsabre combat with anyone after Yoda?

Well, in DE, Palpatine keeps a collection of sabers and boasts how they were personal kills, so he had to hve fought sometime in the interim. And Palpatine is highly pragmatic and delegated the empire to the Moffs, governors, Vader and other hig ranking guys to allow himself freedom to pursue Sith abilities...it makes perfect sense he'd stay in shape. Emperors don't deal with everything, so Palpatine had numerous guys in charge of sectors for him.

ESB Vader

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Do you ever have ANY proof of some of the stuff you say?
TPm sidious above DE Sidious as a duelist? Sidious 'didn't practice?' Sidious didn't duel anyone again for 20 years?

False, false and false.

in real life if you are a fighter and you for gods sake havnt fought for 24 YEARS you wouldnt be as good as you were wont you? you are being blind. TPM sidious is above DE sidious because he practises with the lightsaber and after that for not fighting for 24 years? wouldnt he wear down?

and show me proof that sidious fought during the 24 year time gap after yoda, prove it to me, since ROTS sidious is the emperor and lets vader do all the dirty work so why the hell would he need to fight? unless he is defending himself from an attacker but even so vader would step in and he just sits on his ass drinking coffee watching his pwn do all the sh!t.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Well, in DE, Palpatine keeps a collection of sabers and boasts how they were personal kills, so he had to hve fought sometime in the interim. And Palpatine is highly pragmatic and delegated the empire to the Moffs, governors, Vader and other hig ranking guys to allow himself freedom to pursue Sith abilities...it makes perfect sense he'd stay in shape. Emperors don't deal with everything, so Palpatine had numerous guys in charge of sectors for him.

we cant just assume he really killed people to get the saber, he could have lied as he lied to anakin that he knew how to cheat death which indeed he didnt when he told him "the power to cheat death has been mastered by one but if we work together we can learn"

and ok maybe he did fight but i only saw 3 lightsabers in DE 3 kills period, thats all? in 24 years? does that make him better than TPM sidious? he practises with the saber because he aint busy

Nupe Kill Droma

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Well, in DE, Palpatine keeps a collection of sabers and boasts how they were personal kills, so he had to hve fought sometime in the interim. And Palpatine is highly pragmatic and delegated the empire to the Moffs, governors, Vader and other hig ranking guys to allow himself freedom to pursue Sith abilities...it makes perfect sense he'd stay in shape. Emperors don't deal with everything, so Palpatine had numerous guys in charge of sectors for him.

That works for me, bro!

Archangelysses

To think that Sidious would have allowed himself to become less than perfect at anything would be laughable.

The only Sith to engineer the revenge and to have destroyed the Jedi would never have slipped in anything.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by ESB Vader
in real life if you are a fighter and you for gods sake havnt fought for 24 YEARS you wouldnt be as good as you were wont you? you are being blind. TPM sidious is above DE sidious because he practises with the lightsaber and after that for not fighting for 24 years? wouldnt he wear down?

and show me proof that sidious fought during the 24 year time gap after yoda, prove it to me, since ROTS sidious is the emperor and lets vader do all the dirty work so why the hell would he need to fight? unless he is defending himself from an attacker but even so vader would step in and he just sits on his ass drinking coffee watching his pwn do all the sh!t.

we cant just assume he really killed people to get the saber, he could have lied as he lied to anakin that he knew how to cheat death which indeed he didnt when he told him "the power to cheat death has been mastered by one but if we work together we can learn"

and ok maybe he did fight but i only saw 3 lightsabers in DE 3 kills period, thats all? in 24 years? does that make him better than TPM sidious? he practises with the saber because he aint busy

Proof Sidious hadn't fought for twenty years? Right, thought so. Kthx.
Proof TPM Sidious practiced with a saber while Emperor Palpatine did not? Oh, right, Palpatine made a point to NEVER let his skills slip. Why would Palpatine need to train himself to fight? To, y'know, mbe ready against those pesky little apprentices with delusions of grandeur. Common sense much?

Palpatine, in the audio shows Luke a large case of Sabers and says they were all Jedi masters whose sabers he preid from their hands, asking Luke if he knows how many Jedi were destroyed by him and his apprentice personally.
Give it a rest, Palpatine delegated day to day responsibilities to imperial governors, he had to to pursue his studies and abilities

ESB Vader

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Proof Sidious hadn't fought for twenty years? Right, thought so. Kthx.
Proof TPM Sidious practiced with a saber while Emperor Palpatine did not? Oh, right, Palpatine made a point to NEVER let his skills slip. Why would Palpatine need to train himself to fight? To, y'know, mbe ready against those pesky little apprentices with delusions of grandeur. Common sense much?

Palpatine, in the audio shows Luke a large case of Sabers and says they were all Jedi masters whose sabers he preid from their hands, asking Luke if he knows how many Jedi were destroyed by him and his apprentice personally.
Give it a rest, Palpatine delegated day to day responsibilities to imperial governors, he had to to pursue his studies and abilities

proof sidious dueled and practised for 24 years? have any? no you dont and palpatines a lier and i didnt see "that many lightsabers" in DE neither did he say he killed jedi during that time why?

because luke and leia were the only jedi around that time after ROTS to DE!

Archangelysses

What about Brand???

Archangelysses

Vima Da Boda??

Lightsnake

Originally posted by ESB Vader
proof sidious dueled and practised for 24 years? have any? no you dont and palpatines a lier and i didnt see "that many lightsabers" in DE neither did he say he killed jedi during that time why?

because luke and leia were the only jedi around that time after ROTS to DE!

That's great, prove he was lying. And in the audiobook, Palpatine shows Luke a case.

And, umm..."Have you any idea how many Jedi were destroyed by me and my Apprentice?"

And we know Palpatine never allowed his skills to deteriorate...he's SMART, remember?
Unless you have proof, shut up.

ESB Vader

Originally posted by Lightsnake
That's great, prove he was lying. And in the audiobook, Palpatine shows Luke a case.

And, umm..."Have you any idea how many Jedi were destroyed by me and my Apprentice?"

And we know Palpatine never allowed his skills to deteriorate...he's SMART, remember?
Unless you have proof, shut up.

lightsnake quit being a fanboy, proof hes telling the truth? u also have none do you and killing a few jedis in a 24 year span aint shit compared to tpm sidious mastering his techniques to his finest.

and palpatine never allowed his skills to deteriorate? being smart doesnt mean you wont let your skills rusty, you can know everything about golf and be good at it but when u dont practise, the knowledge still remains but ur skills get rusty.

if palpatine never allowed his skills to fu*k up, then we should have seen him practising with the lightsaber for the 24 year span, you got no proof, the answer to why tpm sidious saber skills are better is already there, you are just refusing to think and go by "o he killed this guy, o he killed that guy so there fore his skills didnt get rusty". killing a few jedi after not practising still doesnt prove his skills are as good as he was in the movies

clap

From watching Samuel L. Jackson's work in the films, I would say Mace Windu is the worst duelist. SLJ just didn't put in the practice time to look smooth.

kamikz

That makes SLJ the worst duellist, not Mace. Mace is the second best swordsman in the order.

ESB Vader

against dark siders id say mace since vaapad shatterpoints and reflects a dark siders hate against the dark siders self causing his own opponent to be beaten by his own anger and hate, hell idk why yoda didnt kill sidious where mace could bury his foot in palaptines ass

kamikz

I thought every jedi master could sense a shatterpoint, just that Mace at early age was better than most masters was at it...

Jen'ari

Yes, according to Shatterpoint.

Jen'ari

It's also designed to look almost as Kinteic as Ataru.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by ESB Vader
lightsnake quit being a fanboy, proof hes telling the truth? u also have none do you and killing a few jedis in a 24 year span aint shit compared to tpm sidious mastering his techniques to his finest.

and palpatine never allowed his skills to deteriorate? being smart doesnt mean you wont let your skills rusty, you can know everything about golf and be good at it but when u dont practise, the knowledge still remains but ur skills get rusty.

if palpatine never allowed his skills to fu*k up, then we should have seen him practising with the lightsaber for the 24 year span, you got no proof, the answer to why tpm sidious saber skills are better is already there, you are just refusing to think and go by "o he killed this guy, o he killed that guy so there fore his skills didnt get rusty". killing a few jedi after not practising still doesnt prove his skills are as good as he was in the movies
Here's proof: He has a case of sabers in his room, described as 'personal kills' by the emperor and boasts to Luke about it. Proof enough? Okay, then shut your trap and try to prove it wrong.

Palpatine never let his skills deteriorate and always tried to improve on them...this extends to saber ability.

Oh, wow! We don't SEE him practising with the saber! You mean, in stories where he never appears alone and is far better in DE than he was anywhere else must prove your point! Name one story where he's actually, y'know, ALONE where we see him in great detail. Can you prove ANY of this?

So, proof he didn't practice? No? Ok, shut up.

ESB Vader

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Here's proof: He has a case of sabers in his room, described as 'personal kills' by the emperor and boasts to Luke about it. Proof enough? Okay, then shut your trap and try to prove it wrong.

Palpatine never let his skills deteriorate and always tried to improve on them...this extends to saber ability.

Oh, wow! We don't SEE him practising with the saber! You mean, in stories where he never appears alone and is far better in DE than he was anywhere else must prove your point! Name one story where he's actually, y'know, ALONE where we see him in great detail. Can you prove ANY of this?

So, proof he didn't practice? No? Ok, shut up.

just because he killed a few jedi does it mean wow "h3 !$ uBeR" llike i said man he did kill people but actual proof his skills are as good or better than when he kept practising day by day? simply you have none! you keep saying "o he got a !igHt$@B3r collecyion and described as personal kills" that "proof" of urs aint concrete enough so one thing, show me actual evidense that his skills are better than when he is before TPM when he pratises his saber abilities at his peak

want me to show proof he practises? read the comics where they show sidious and maul before TPM theres ur proof fanbrat

see? i was right u r a "mega" fanboy of DE sidious

Lightsnake

Ok, let's see...he's good enough in DE to move faster than the eye can perceive and with Luke tear apart the throne room, and is in a better body?

And sorry, no Sidious with a lightsaber in any comic pre TPM, sorry, liar.

Proof he doesn't practice in the future? Yoda hadn't fought with a saber in centuries, were his abilities lesser by ROTS?

You have ANY proof minus 'he doesn't practice later because I say so!"?
Common sense here, Palpatine keeps in shape and keeps a saber ON HIM in DE. any proof? No? Ok

Sith Lord Windu

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Yoda hadn't fought with a saber in centuries, were his abilities lesser by ROTS?

proof? just because hes the grandmaster of the jedi council doesn't mean that he doesn't train with his saber.

by the way, your a fanboy, face it and accept it.

Lightsnake

Proof he trained with a saber? Hypocrite much?

Rampant ox

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Proof he trained with a saber? Hypocrite much?

Lol, check and mate.

ESB Vader

before the time of TPM? the time when he trained darth maul? the time when he is only a senator and a sith lord in a shadows training darth maul? theres some of the evidence fanbrat

ESB Vader

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Ok, let's see...he's good enough in DE to move faster than the eye can perceive and with Luke tear apart the throne room, and is in a better body?

And sorry, no Sidious with a lightsaber in any comic pre TPM, sorry, liar.

Proof he doesn't practice in the future? Yoda hadn't fought with a saber in centuries, were his abilities lesser by ROTS?

You have ANY proof minus 'he doesn't practice later because I say so!"?
Common sense here, Palpatine keeps in shape and keeps a saber ON HIM in DE. any proof? No? Ok

young lightsnake im about to hand you your ass for real this time.

number 1) just because the book says "s0 f@$t till cannot see" means he is good? thatsource book made alot of sh!t mistakes, they said he "mastered" every technique of the dark side which is total j@ck schitt
he didnt even master plagueis manipulation midi chlorian techniques.
- owned that book doesnt apply common sense and it came out before any of the movies, new information and common sense beats that old book

number2) yoda is not a dumb ass, he obviously did practise with a saber for 800 years in the jedi council that was why he is still good being able to fight with sith lords - dooku and sidious

number3) even if i cant prove he practised for 30 years what about the 6 years he spent as a spirit floating in the galaxy before he got into his clones? even if u slack for a month u will fall more and more and more. talk about 6 years of not doing so, of not even being physical, that even happened to exar kun who could only possess kyp.

last but not least your sources are outdated.
are you gonna claim "o sears towers are the tallest because this book says so" when the record has already been broken? see point proven, you use old books as a source which cant compare to the new things lucas arts came out with,

even nihilus master force drain, kreia already said it cannot be taught
again the DE series fu*ked up and became flawed

Jen'ari

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Proof he trained with a saber? Hypocrite much?

Although I mostly agree with you, it was said that Yoda was one of the only people ever to best Mace, so its pretty clear that Yoda did at least once spar with Mace which would mean that he had practised in the last century.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by ESB Vader
young lightsnake im about to hand you your ass for real this time.

number 1) just because the book says "s0 f@$t till cannot see" means he is good? thatsource book made alot of sh!t mistakes, they said he "mastered" every technique of the dark side which is total j@ck schitt
he didnt even master plagueis manipulation midi chlorian techniques.
- owned that book doesnt apply common sense and it came out before any of the movies, new information and common sense beats that old book

number2) yoda is not a dumb ass, he obviously did practise with a saber for 800 years in the jedi council that was why he is still good being able to fight with sith lords - dooku and sidious

number3) even if i cant prove he practised for 30 years what about the 6 years he spent as a spirit floating in the galaxy before he got into his clones? even if u slack for a month u will fall more and more and more. talk about 6 years of not doing so, of not even being physical, that even happened to exar kun who could only possess kyp.

last but not least your sources are outdated.
are you gonna claim "o sears towers are the tallest because this book says so" when the record has already been broken? see point proven, you use old books as a source which cant compare to the new things lucas arts came out with,

even nihilus master force drain, kreia already said it cannot be taught
again the DE series fu*ked up and became flawed

Oh, except...no. It's canon he mastered every technique so your opinion is invalid.

Palpatine's not a dumb ass either so he must have practiced too. Your logic really sucks.

My sources are outdated? Sorry, kid, but sources don't get outdated. Unless they're contradicted they remain, and Palp knowing everything and killing Jedi was never once contradicted. Even Maul thinks on the few Jedi he and 'his master' killed in Shadow Hunter.

Sorry, but the new things don't contradict the old!

Oooh, and DE Sidious knew Force Drain and used it and since there's no retcon and sources even said sidious drained the inhabitants of Byss AFTER KOTOR 2 came out in 2004...well, there goes your argument. Seems poor little Kreia's a bit out of her league.

Sith Lord Windu

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Proof he trained with a saber? Hypocrite much?

proof he didn't?

hypocrite on what exactly?

Nupe Kill Droma

Originally posted by Jen'ari
Although I mostly agree with you, it was said that Yoda was one of the only people ever to best Mace, so its pretty clear that Yoda did at least once spar with Mace which would mean that he had practised in the last century.

Hey, Jen'ari,

Where did you find that info?

I was reading the ROTS novel, and I noticed that Obi Wan says to Yoda that Mace, Kit Fisto, and the others who went to arrest the Chancellor were the greatest swordsmen of the Order. I think "greatest" was the word he used. In any case, IMHO, "greatest" implies "the best ever," while "best" means that you are the best of your own time. With that in mind, I would say that maybe Mace is the best of the Jedi Order (I'm not considering the Sith in this argument), considering that Obi Wan (a master himself who is the best defensive duelist) acknowledges that Mace and those with him were the greatest. Further, even Yoda seems to agree with Kenobi in that short dialogue.

I don't count Mace's fight with Sidious to mean anything simply because I think that Sidious knew Anakin would come to help him as he was fighting Mace. He even called to Anakin telepathically while Anakin waited in the council chambers, and Mace noticed that Sidious wasn't threatened by Anakin's presence when he finally showed up during the battle. In other words, Sidious was putting on a huge act, and I'm not certain how the fight would have gone had Mace and Sidious been fighting all out. Still, I would think that Mace is arguably a stronger swordsman than Yoda. I'm not inclined to count on a "sparring match" just because the opponents still have restrictions. Just my two cents.

Also, considering that Yoda was a Jedi consular, I wouldn't expect him to be the baddest "mofo" with a lightsaber.

Lightsnake

Originally posted by Sith Lord Windu
proof he didn't?

hypocrite on what exactly?

Palpatine didn't Train!"
"Yoda wasn't stupid, he must have trained"

But Nupe, Yoda>Any other Jedi at the time with a saber...the consular thing is kinda BS...

Advent

Originally posted by Nupe Kill Droma
I was reading the ROTS novel, and I noticed that Obi Wan says to Yoda that Mace, Kit Fisto, and the others who went to arrest the Chancellor were the greatest swordsmen of the Order. I think "greatest" was the word he used. In any case, IMHO, "greatest" implies "the best ever," while "best" means that you are the best of your own time. With that in mind, I would say that maybe Mace is the best of the Jedi Order (I'm not considering the Sith in this argument), considering that Obi Wan (a master himself who is the best defensive duelist) acknowledges that Mace and those with him were the greatest. Further, even Yoda seems to agree with Kenobi in that short dialogue.

Actually, it doesn't say they are the greatest. It says, taken directly from the novelization:

"Now Obi-Wan did face him. "Palpatine faced Mace and Agen and Kit and Saesee - four of the greatest swordsmen our Order has ever produced. By himself."

-- Revenge of the Sith novelization, Chapter 19.

"Of the greatest" clearly doesn't mean they are the best in any way. Just they are among the best. Agen, Saesee, and Kit aren't on top or anything like that as we obviously know. And also, they are far from "the best ever". And Kenobi's dialogue of "our Order has ever produced" counts for jack shit when you consider Kenobi doesn't even know a quarter of all the swordsmen the Jedi Order has produced. Seeing as it stems back thousands of years.

Oh he knew, did he? Just like he knew Darth Vader would benchpress him into a reactor core with one arm, right?

Prove he knew. I'd submit not, considering the lightsaber duel in the ROTS novelization is described exactly as:

"Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.
Impasse.
Which might have gone on forever, if Vaapad were Mace's only gift"

This implies they are equal with a lightsaber, considering that's all they were doing. It was Mace's gift of Shatterpoint which allowed him to win. So, from this we can gauge Mace was, at most, equal to Sidious in saber combat. Force-wise he's inferior, though.

No, he did not. If we're talking about the same thing, all you hear are Palpatine's voice speaking. I could just as easily say it was just the words spoken to Anakin off screen repeating in his head as no other material concedes to what you're saying.

Sidious was only acting when Anakin arrived, before that - in the duel - he lost seemingly legit. And also, why the hell would Sidious be threatened? He had Anakin on the verge of corruption, and he was an easy pawn to bend to his will. He did trust Anakin after all, as that was his Shatterpoint.

Consular? Lol. Since when is there such a thing like "class" outside of KOTOR games? Considering he's better than Dooku with a blade, I'd say he's no pushover. He's obviously the best with a blade in the Order from what else we know.

ESB Vader

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Oh, except...no. It's canon he mastered every technique so your opinion is invalid.

Palpatine's not a dumb ass either so he must have practiced too. Your logic really sucks.

My sources are outdated? Sorry, kid, but sources don't get outdated. Unless they're contradicted they remain, and Palp knowing everything and killing Jedi was never once contradicted. Even Maul thinks on the few Jedi he and 'his master' killed in Shadow Hunter.

Sorry, but the new things don't contradict the old!

Oooh, and DE Sidious knew Force Drain and used it and since there's no retcon and sources even said sidious drained the inhabitants of Byss AFTER KOTOR 2 came out in 2004...well, there goes your argument. Seems poor little Kreia's a bit out of her league.

o i c fanboy so the book says so means he did? bull shit, if he had really "mastered" all the techniques he would have used plagueis method to stop his last clone from dehydration, owned fanbrat o and how its gonna work? ever heard of manipulating the midi chlorians to keep one alive?

yes DE source book is outdated now since it came out so long ago

O so not outdated then i should be reading the world record book of what happened 50 years ago and should not listen to what comes out today, lightsnake ur logic sucks ass, fanboy accept it.

and how the fu*k is palpatine suppose to practise as a spirit for 6 years.

once again lightsnake OWNED you cant explain how his skills remained tho for 6 years floating as a spirit.

if sidious force drain came out after 2004 then show me the evidense, you got that shit from wikipedia didnt you? or wookiepedia, they cant even say where it came from, dumbass you got owned AGAIN and i will back down if you show me the evidence. i read the same shit from wookie and wiki

dumbass the book only claimed he mastered every technique and yet cant prove it, even sidious admited in ROTS "a power to cheat death has ONLY been mastered by one BUT if we work together we might find a way" thats palpatine to anakin.

Nupe Kill Droma

Advent, baby... it's not that crucial... trust me. lol

By the time that Obi Wan makes the statement, "four of the greatest...," he, himself is a Jedi Master, meaning that there is probably the SLIGHTEST chance that just MAYBE he knows what the hell he's talking about...

Further, after he states that Sidious took on "four of the greatest" by himself, he tells Yoda that he and Yoda together don't stand a chance taking on Sidious, with which Yoda agrees.

When I hear the word "greatest" I get the feeling that the person is making a comparison with anyone, including those from past generations. For example, when Muhammad Ali shouts, "I am the greatest!" he's not meaning he's just the best boxer of the era in which he boxed; rather, he means he's the GOAT (Greatest of All Time). With that in mind, and considering that Obi Wan had access to any/all of the holocrons in the archives as a "Master" (not to mention a 900 year-old Jedi in agreement with him), I would think that he probably knew who some of the best duelists were.

Regarding "telepathy" and my suggestion that Palpatine called to Anakin:

I'm taking into consideration that the words in Anakin's head were different from what Palpatine told him earlier (in the movie). I'm not saying it's the gospel truth, but it's simply my OWN interpretation that Palpatine was calling to Anakin. I'll admit that this scene is rather vague, though. By the same token, as this is somewhat ambiguous, like so many other things, you can't say with 100% that he's absolutely NOT calling to Anakin through the Force. What we DO know is that in the scene there is a voice that is Palpatine's saying something that Palpatine did NOT say to Anakin earlier. My interpretation is that he's using telepathy. Your interpretation is that Anakin is thinking the stuff in his head, and that's fine. We simply can't "disprove" each other on this point.

It all depends on how you look at it. While I don't believe you can provide proof or disprove that Sidious started acting only when Anakin arrived, I believe that you make Sidious into a fool nearly. What we do know is that Sidious orchestrated everything: the war, the clones, Anakin's demise, etc. Are we going to say that he didn't know that Anakin would show up to his rescue? Of course he knew! Sidious was a mastermind who meticulously planned every single detail of his scheme to convert Anakin and take over the galaxy. Granted, he's not a god, so he couldn't foresee everything (like Vader's defeat on Mustafar), but he had twisted Anakin's mind to the point that he could control Anakin's actions. Putting on the act coincides with his name, afterall - "(In)Sidious."

Actually, Power Of The Jedi Sourcebook (RPG) lists Yoda as a "consular." I'm not saying it is or isn't "canon." Just that some authorities who work for GL say that if there were "classes" of Jedi, Yoda would be a "consular." Among the RPG gamers, it is known that consulars are not typically as strong in weaponry... But this is all my own opinion, to which I am happy to be entitled.

Still, I think there is something to be said in your opinion that Mace had beaten Sidious fair and square (I don't necessarily agree, but you do have some evidence that supports your argument), and if that's the case then your argument supports the point that Mace was a better swordsman than Yoda, as Yoda did not (and COULD NOT) defeat Sidious. This is according to the ROTS movie and novel... Even the StarWars.com databank states that Sidious "bested" Yoda (link is here).

kamikz

Actually, Sidious was on par with Mace in swordsman ability. (Though didn't the novelisation say that Sidious suddenly slowed down at the near ending? Don't remember well). It was only Mace Shatterpoint ability which gave him the victory.
He has sparred with Yoda undoubtedly countless of times, and Yoda has always been the superior swordsman, according to himself as well. Yoda actually dodged Depa Billaba, Plo Koon and someone elses strikes easily, without even using a saber. If he had a saber, he would easily be able to hit them while dodging. Depa was regarded by Mace as a better swordsman than himself.

Either way, I belive Yoda is superior to Mace in swordsman ability, even if it is not by very much...

ESB Vader

Originally posted by kamikz
Actually, Sidious was on par with Mace in swordsman ability. (Though didn't the novelisation say that Sidious suddenly slowed down at the near ending? Don't remember well). It was only Mace Shatterpoint ability which gave him the victory.
He has sparred with Yoda undoubtedly countless of times, and Yoda has always been the superior swordsman, according to himself as well. Yoda actually dodged Depa Billaba, Plo Koon and someone elses strikes easily, without even using a saber. If he had a saber, he would easily be able to hit them while dodging. Depa was regarded by Mace as a better swordsman than himself.

Either way, I belive Yoda is superior to Mace in swordsman ability, even if it is not by very much...

hmm i agree but against dark siders id say mace, shatterpoint and vapaad reflecting a dark side users hate agaisnt himself, but yoda has like 800 years of experience, idk why mace seems so close to him and sidious being just as good or prehaps better

Nupe Kill Droma

I think that Sidious' being better than Yoda is a testament to Yoda's belief that the Jedi had remained stagnant while the Sith re-made themselves and became new.

Kamikz, I was checking out the Starwars.com website, reading the Expanded Universe info on Mace Windu, and it does say that the only ones ever to best Windu were Yoda and Dooku. It also says that Mace was "on par" with Yoda, but that could mean that he's equal to Yoda in authority or in prestige, not necessarily power. I don't know... What I do believe, though, is that Sidious was stronger than Yoda and Mace, though Mace did appear to win at a "test of sabres." I guess in the end, each Jedi/Sith has his own abilities or qualities that set him/her apart from the others. Each one has his/her own strengths and weaknesses and can defeat, or be defeated by, anyone "on any given Sunday."

Lightsnake

Originally posted by ESB Vader
o i c fanboy so the book says so means he did? bull shit, if he had really "mastered" all the techniques he would have used plagueis method to stop his last clone from dehydration, owned fanbrat o and how its gonna work? ever heard of manipulating the midi chlorians to keep one alive?

yes DE source book is outdated now since it came out so long ago

O so not outdated then i should be reading the world record book of what happened 50 years ago and should not listen to what comes out today, lightsnake ur logic sucks ass, fanboy accept it.

and how the fu*k is palpatine suppose to practise as a spirit for 6 years.

once again lightsnake OWNED you cant explain how his skills remained tho for 6 years floating as a spirit.

if sidious force drain came out after 2004 then show me the evidense, you got that shit from wikipedia didnt you? or wookiepedia, they cant even say where it came from, dumbass you got owned AGAIN and i will back down if you show me the evidence. i read the same shit from wookie and wiki

dumbass the book only claimed he mastered every technique and yet cant prove it, even sidious admited in ROTS "a power to cheat death has ONLY been mastered by one BUT if we work together we might find a way" thats palpatine to anakin.

*YAWN* Prove the Plagueis technique existed. Oh, and Sidious said Plagueis could've saved others but not himself. Even the spirits of the Dark Lords couldn't save his clone body, try again!

Ok, the marvel comics and movies came out long ago, are they invalid? Sorry, but nope. Thing have been written recently in the last few years that even validate DE and what it wrote. Age =/= credibility, sorry, kid!

Palpatine wasn't a spirit for sixteen years, he was back in a body almost right after Endor thanks to Jeng Droga and back on Byss very shortly thereafter. Learn about what you try to say, capische?

Oooh, sorry, but DE is a fictional sourcebook that gives facts backed up by other material.

Hey, moron? Sidious used force drain on the inhabitants of Byss. In fact, Force Drain was invented as a technique in the Dark Empire sourcebook. Geez, the level of your ignorance...

Oh, and Palpatine couldn't be lying about the power to cheat death? Or he couldn't hahve discovered it later on? Since it was spelled out that since his clone had yielded to necrosis and couldn't be saved, welll...
Oh, prove the technique exists? Thanks. The Sourcebook gives facts that are backed up, and unfortunately for you, they're canon and you can't debate them unless you can form a coherent argument.

So, you throw out the insults and barely legible mangling of the English language only to get beat down again, sad...

Oh, btw? Dark Empire Sourcebook, Dark Side sourcebook.
Thanks for playing.

Advent

Originally posted by Nupe Kill Droma
By the time that Obi Wan makes the statement, "four of the greatest...," he, himself is a Jedi Master, meaning that there is probably the SLIGHTEST chance that just MAYBE he knows what the hell he's talking about...

Point being? When did I ever say otherwise? Oh? I didn't? Alright, now that's cleared up. "Of the greatest", keyword: of. Meaning among, not that they are. Qui-Gon Jinn is described as being "one of the Order's greatest swordsman", Count Dooku is described exactly as "one of the most respected and powerful Jedi Masters in the Order's twenty-five-thousand year history."

Is Count Dooku the best?

Short answer: No.

Is Qui-Gon Jinn the best?

Short answer: Hell no.

They are simply among the best. And even so, "best" is how many? 10? 100? 1.000? 10,000?

And? Since when are the Jedi known for their arrogance specifically? Obi-Wan especially, because he even gets turned off by the boasting Anakin does in the ROTS novelization. In fact, Yoda seems to think he'll be beating Sidious' ass later on in Palpatine's Chambers, so you were saying? He went there with the intent of stopping Sidious, he believed he could.

Is he the greatest though? How would he even know? Does he know every boxer that lived before him? He's boasting for one. For two, Ali was known for his arrogance, was he not? Doing shit to the referee, right?

Really, I don't know much of anything about any boxers, so I don't even know what the hell you're even talking about.

Oh right, because Holocrons contain every fight and follow every single detail of one single person's history, huh? Don't be ridiculous, Nupe. As I already said, is Qui-Gon the best? Is Dooku?

No, but as Agen, Saesee, and Fisto are - they are among the best. Dooku is actually one of the best ever because he was described as "one of the most powerful Jedi in its twenty-five-thousand year history" by the omniscient narrator. The rest were described by Obi-Wan, a fallacious character who does not have the authority to make the call of "best ever".

*Dickzorz* Did you just read what I wrote, and decided to type a year-long paragraph on it with some meaningless statements? I said, "I could just as easily say yada, yada". Meaning I'm comparing what you said to another theory, and that you can't disprove it, but neither can you disprove what I said. Thanks for elaborating on something that didn't *need* it. The only thing I said that would seem as if I am firmly saying "No" is "No, he did not". But as went on further, it would seem to imply that I meant basically "proof?".

How? Because he was beaten? Big deal. He's not perfect. And ROTJ makes him into a fool enough.

What do you mean by "Anakin's demise"? If you mean the persona that is Anakin Skywalker, then yes somewhat.

"Your thoughts betray you, father. I feel the
good in you...the conflict." Recall that line? Recall who that was said to and where?

Yes, that's right. Luke Skywalker to Darth Vader. And guess who was right next to them sitting contently in his chair? Darth Sidious. Say like five minutes later he is bench pressed into a reactor core by the one armed cyborg standing right next to him. Did he orchestrate that? Did he foresee that?

But wait, for your theory to be correct, Sidious would have to know Anakin is coming. But he can't feel basic emotions - even after they were practically screamed across the room by Luke, and while his apprentice was standing right next to him? Mind you, Vader had been under him for twenty some years, so you're telling me he couldn't control Vader then?

Sidious can't foresee everything. He was legit. dropped by Mace Windu. They are descriped as equals, and it states Mace's Shatterpoint allowed Windu to put Sidious on his ass. So your theory begs question: why are they virtual equals with a blade, but Sidious orchestrated getting put on his ass?

Did he also orchestrate Mace kicking the saber out of his ass instead of a blade through his abdomen?

Yes, and other various RPG Sourcebooks give levels and stats. So, is Marka Ragnos canonically stronger than NJO Luke and Yoda because his stats are better? Is Vader stronger than Exar Kun? No. Yoda is a consular for roleplaying purposes, they aren't canon.

How? Let me tell you the time of their lightsaber duel: 40 seconds. Their duel, in terms of swordplay, only went on for 1/6 of the time (as the duel was around 4 minutes rounded). So, how can I say Mace > Yoda as a duelist if they didn't even duke it out with a lightsaber for the majority of the time?

Oh? I can't? Okay, so it does not support anything you have to say. Bolded just for the simple fact I want to make it clear. And who gives a flying shit if Sidious "bested" Yoda? He didn't beat him in a lightsaber duel, ergo you cannot make the assumption because Mace beat Sidious in a lightsaber duel that Mace > Yoda because he "lost". As I've already said countless times throughout this post, simply because they didn't have a full lightsaber duel.

Even taking the premise that Yoda couldn't beat Sidious (which obviously I disagree with, and I'm not going to argue it so don't bother) - it can be construed as "Yoda cannot beat Sidious in a full out fight", and neither can Mace.