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Star Wars has always been good versus evil, and everyone always knows good prevails, so we root for them. We cheer for good destroy evil. But who do we cheer for in this film? Anakin, who we know will be evil but may not be in this film? Or the republic? Or the jedi? WHO? WHO!?!

Hmmm, that's kind of a problem for me..because I know that I will definately want to root for Anakin...even though we will eventually fall. On the other hand..that would be great if everyone roots for Anakin in EP2...just because then it would make his fall from grace that much more potent for the audience.

I think GL will go for sympathy with Anakin and anitpathy towards the establishment. That way his fall will be more dramatic and the concept of "a new hope" becomes a necessity. So I see myself cheering for Anakin and then finding out that we were ALL soo wrong. (and then we see the OT again and can't belive we were so stupid )

So what about Obi-Wan? He's the constant throughout, even if in V&VI he is a ghost...

I don't agree Ratcat, if it wasn't for Obi wan and his poor attempt at training Anakin then none of new hope etc would have happened in the first place! Best to stick to the facts, as it's the 2nd of three, Lucas will make this a dark one (see Empire & Temple of Doom) so it's kinda obvious that the dark side will prevail in this one. For this reason I'm backing Palpatine for Ep.II....big up the Palpatine!

I think Ep3 will be even darker than Ep2. GL said so and it should be. It's not a trilogy like the OT or Temple of Doom. Ep2 and 3 will form the dark "second act" in the whole series now.

I think we will feel sympathy for OB1. We should or he'd be the biggest looser in the entire series: impatient, rude to "lesser" creatures, lousy Jedi Master, liar etc.
We may find ourselves torn between Anakin and OB1.

YEah, but you don't know that cos in the tiome frame of the film OB1 hasn't screwed up yet.

Go Obi! Go Obi! Go Obi! Go Obi!

What got me is thae way that Darth Maul, the super-stylish, wish-he-had-more-screen time siper villain, captures everyone's hearts, everyone loves him...

And yet after he'skilled poor old Qui-Gon, you end up rooting for Obi-Wan to win the fight afterwards, even though you've barely seen any of him before either

That's good emotional film making for you.

And how come people always lay into Obi-Wan for cocking up, but always have hero worship for Yoda, who was responsbile as well? Where's your "War Makes not One Great" policy NOW, little green guy!

I agree. I think we may see that there is less of OB1 screwing up and more of Anakin being too old and the Jedi not knowing how to deal with a teenage padawan.

I agree with u ratcat. OBi-wan didn't screw up that much. Yoda didn't even want to train, That means yoda thought that the council would have screwed up too.

Mind you, I'm not ready to dispose of my idea that Yoda not wanting to train Anakin WAS his mistake, and he really should have done.

The overall question was a lot easier in the first two films. Everyone rooted for the side Han Solo was on, of course. Then there was the final mighty clash of the rooting-for titans when Han finally fought Boba Fett...

Hmm. Didn't go quite as planned.

Lets not forget that Obi Wan agreeing to train Anakin was a PROMISE TO HIS DYING MASTER. Not something that I think Obi Wan would have been willing to take on otherwise. Qui Gon thought Anakin was the chosen one, but Obi Wan agreed with council more on the issue of Anakin's future being clouded and much fear being sensed in the boy. Yoda did not want to agree to Obi Wan training the boy, but ultimately had to respect Qui Gon's last wish. IMHO OC.

We also have not yet seen exactly where and how Obi Wan had been wrong or lacking in his attempt to train Anakin. I think you have to take into consideration the other events (frustration with the council, Shmi' death, Qui Gon's death, which I think should be included here, the situation with Padme and the constant influence of Sidious) as all factors in Anakin's downfall. Not all blame can be put on Obi Wan. Personally, I will probably "root" for Anakin as I think the sympathy factor will manifest itself with him throughout 2 and some of 3. At least until he becomes Vader and/or initiates or participates in his first act of darkness. But even then I'll root for him cause I just love Darth Vader.

Well, we DO know that OB1 screws up. So far he's not been very sympathetic in Ep1.

What is sympathetic about the older OB1 that indeed there are many causes for Anakin's fall, OB1 seems to take the blame. "I thought I could teach him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong."

I'm just still worried that everyone wil look at Obi-Wan and say "you messed up, you big twonk".and then turn and look at Yoda and say "Hello, mighty perfect one! How may I serve thee?". Some people have no sense of proportion

I have a question. What are u guy's fav. characters? Mine is ob1.

Well, Ush, wouldn't that work in the scheme of things?..it would just add another layer to the whole story

My favorite is Leia, phinney..

Luke & Vader are tied at first place.

Qui-Gon. I'm a big defender of TPM as a movie, and Liam Neeson is one of my core arguments for it.

I aheva n opinion on the TPM ment. I think Gui-Gon Jinn was the phantom menace, because He was the first one that brought anakin in the picture and made Obi-wan promise to train them. That of cource led to domination by the empire

One more question. Do you guys think that ob1 royally screwd up, or that anakin was just to old
and to full of anger,that even yoda would not have benn able to train? Thats why he woundn't

I don't know yet. Now I think he is a screw up, but that would change our perception on him greatly. Was he a great man or a great failure? Only Ep2 and 3 can answer that and I think GL will really have to make an effort to make OB1 surface as a great man.

As to Qui-Gon being a bad thing,. I have stated before that the only mistake he made was dying, which you can hardly criticise him for. As he was responsible for the discovery of the person who, in the end, put everything right, you can't put him in the 'Menace' stakes.

I liked Qui Gon a lot and I thought Liam Neeson did an excellent job with the role. He WAS a jedi. I was sad when he died, but the center now needs to be on Anakin/Obi Wan and Qui Gon would have had to had a lesser role. IMHO OC.

I think you're right about that..to bring Qui Gon more into play now would make the connection with OT strained. IMO

I would dig a little ghost appearance by Qui-Gon here and there, to coach OB1 a bit.

I agree, queeq. That would follow the natural flow, as Obi Wan and Yoda appeared to Luke in the OT.

Yeah, but he can't, because... oh, let's not start that again.

In any case, if Qui-Gon could even have a few more words of advice to Obi-Wan, I don't think Obi-Wan would @#%$ up Anakin's training. Much as I love the guy, he's dead as a dodo.

Well, I guess you're right. But I HOPE not.

hey,


I don't think ob1 should be blameds for all of this, it had more of the boy being to old, and to much anger already in him. there was nothing anyone elso could do. Yod even thought the council whould have messed up his training

I don't believe that word got censored!

I still think Yoda isn't quite as smart as he's given credit for... actually, make that not quite as INFALLIBLE as people think.

wait a sec., how did we get off this subject entirely? I think phinney6 kinda side tracked us a little. Just start a new topic if u need too!

I't not THAT off-topic. It';s about who your heroes are after all- or aren't. I was commenting that too many people idolise Yoda.

It's a slide on-topic side track. Ush for one would not cheer for Yoda.

Shouldn't we place the blame of Anakin's fall on Anakin...Yeah, maybe OB1 did make mistakes..but it was still Anakin who went the dark side. Anakin's little emotional rollercoaster ride is going to put OB1 through the wringer I think...
*tries to steer back on topic*

I think one of the implications of what we have seen so far is that the Dark Side is very likely to be the destiny of those untrained- or by extension, improperly trained. True, Anakin's nature set him up for his fall, and this shouldn't be ignored, but I think every Jedi teacher knows the responsbility he has in making sure his pupil avoids those traps that he will otherwise most certainly fall for.

Well, I have great sympathy with Obi-Wan, anyway. Difficult as it is to empathise with a fantasy film, I think most of us will do what he does, unless the remaining episodes have some big, big surprises.

U don't think they will have big big surprises Ushgarak? I'll expect them.

Well, in general, I'm sure they will. But specifically pertaining to something that will thoroughly change my view of Obi-Wan... that I feel is less likely

It might though, when OB1 becomes General and succesfully wins the Clone Wars.

I dont get why every 1 puts the blame on ob1. If you really look at the whole picture, you could lay the blame on padme. If she had never gone with qui gon, ani would never had been attracted to her and followed her (assuming he followed her as soon as he finished cleaning the racks).

That's pretty ridiculous. No-one can predict the future consequences ofd so innocent an action. You may as well blame Shmi for being born, or Obi-Wan for not being killed by Maul.

Whereas Obi-Wan had clear responsbility with Anakin, and he failed in that responsbility. But others clearly failed in other ways as well.

The question "Was Obi-Wan to blame?" is irrelevant. GL says he is. The only question is "How MUCH is he to blame?"

I agree with Ush. OB1 is responsible. He is a Jedi, so is Anakin. Padme is not.

I blame Shimi for being born

Ooh. Harsh. Disciple of Yoda, are you?

You are so right about that.

I still think Anakin is responsible..there is such a thing as personal accountability you know.

Thats what my parents keep telling me

While Anakin obviously cannot be held blameless, I think I've said before that the Dark Side seems to be the default destiny for force adepts, UNLESS THEY ARE PROPERLY TRAINED. So Anakin can probably quite rightly turn to his tutors and say "it's your fault more than mine", because all he did was the norm.

Well, he would be right actually. After all he was too OLD to begin his training. In the regular way that is. Yoda obviously altered his training with Luke. And they had Vader to hold him back from turning to the Dark Side. I mean, what knowledge did the Jedi have about the Dark Side until Maul? And in his case only OB1 lived and learned.

I imagine they had plenty of info on the Dark Side, just nothing on the Sith.

Isn't that just how strong the dark side can be?

Well, possibly. Not wanting to get into an EU=based 'what are the Sith' discussion, what is clear from the films is that the Sith is an organisation of Dark Jedi, extinguished 1000 years ago, that only has two emmbers, and that is all.

Meanwhile, we can assume that mere Dark Jedi are around all the time.

Dark Jedi ARE an assumption. If Dooku is an evil Jedi AND Darth Tyranus, this case is very weak from a canonical POV.

Obviously we can't speak definitively here. But it is only a logical assumption that Dark Jedi are around; no system is 100% perfect and besides, most force adepts born outside the Republic would probably end up on the Dark Side, although they wouldn't technically be Jedi.

After all, they wouldn't be so afraid of training Anakin if the Dark Side was anything other than a continuous threat, if not actually fully realised until the time of the prequel trilogy.

Furthermore, they didn't seem that blown away when Qui-Gon reported that he had been in a lightsabre duel with someone with force powers. Only when he made his claim of Sith did they disbelieve him. They probably thought it was a mere Dark Jedi that Qui-Gon had fought- rare, but not impossible, like they considered the Sith to be.

I don't know. Qui-Gon seemed surprised enough about someone being trained in the Jedi arts. Maybe the JC Members have become politicians.

A reason for non-spotted force sensitive people NOT turning Dark is that they have little or no knowledge of the Force. They only become dangerous when TRAINED in the Jedi arts and not done well.

... which is why they would be extremely rare, and not all over the bloody place.

Qui-Gon was surprised that the man was WELL-trained, not that he was trained at all.

Dark Jedi are a very likely logical possibility, for plenty of reasons. But they have never been significant. I mean, all we hear is about how powerful the pull of the Dark Side is- Quicker, Easier, More Seductive... these are words about something that happens, not something vague and theoretical.

Plus we alreadt know of Aurra Sing, a former Jedi Padawan who left the order. I am sure she isn't the only one.

I think JO has touched on a good point there. I can't believe every padawan becomes a master, let alone achieves knighthood. It would logical for some to become disgruntled or disillusioned with the order and leave before completing their training. The council can't force them to stay, I wouldn't think. In Anakin's case, with his superior power and now (I hate to bring it up) midi-chlorian count of supposed astronomic proportions, he is the prime target for Sidious. In Shadows of the Empire, while Vader is searching for Luke, he is thinking to himself, "a light that bright cannot stay hidden for long".

Quicker, easier, more seductive is OT stuff. AFTER VAder's fall. Anyway, whatever it is, non-Sith Dark Jedi are EU until GL puts it in the movies. Simple as that.

Yeah, I know, that, but it's still the most logical outcome. It has always been presented as a fact of life- not a one )or two) off. And the line may have been OT, but it sounded like a long-established catechism to me.

Possibly, but maybe it really got some meaning when the Sith demonstrated their power. It's kinda strange actually that Yoda denies that the Dark Side is stronger. The Sith wiped out all the light side Jedi.

Whihc is an extreme oddity in itself...

Speaking in general terms, if the two sides are the same strength then the Dark Side had an evens chance, before you calculate the intelligence that either side put it.

But then you get into the whole "Are Sith 50 zillion times more powerful than Jedi..." problem...

Maybe it's just that Palpatine is more intelligent than the Jedi and beats them by wit.

Oh yeah. In fact, I really hope it IS that way. If it;s just sheer dumb (and possibly non-existent_ luck..

My (somewhat unclear) point was that when I nsay that the Light and Dark Sides are balanced, I often here people say that 'in that case, as there are only two Sith, do they have ALL the Dakr Side power, and the Light Side is diffused among the Jedi?'

Which wasn't what I was trying to say at all.

I know you didn't. That story sounds really weird. People have this idea of "balance", that it can ONLY be Yin AND Yang. And GL said quite clearly that balance is created in the SW universe by goodness only.

His problem there is that balance sounds cool, but it was bound to be misinterprted. People always like to over-complicate.

I've always thought he could have explained it in another way.

That said, there are plenty of mythological definitions of balance which define it the way GL wants it, rather than the yin-yang approach- and of course, GL knows all of these mythological bases. He probably just didn't foresee that many fans would misinterpret it; easy to do when you have the knowhow, becase it;s easy to forget that othe people don't

But then again, now his fans are debating it for five years in a row until Ep3 comes out. Maybe he won't explain it until then. An interesting way of customer relations, I'd say.