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Box Office Mojo: What is the meaning of the series?
Ted Elliott: It's a study of what is a pirate. How free can you really be? What are those trade-offs? Jack kind of represents the ultimate free man? he really has no obligations to anybody, and, obviously, if you make an obligation to somebody, you're limiting your own freedom. But, if you're not willing to limit your own freedom, you can't have those relationships. If you look at Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest from that point of view,you kind of see what really leads to Jack's ultimate fate and why Elizabeth does what she does.
-from boxofficemojo.com



anyone?

I swear it's as if he just loves to talk in riddles.

For me Ted said that Jack doen't want to limit his freedom and he doesn't want to have a relationship, right?

huh? that does not make sense. if jack wants his freedom, then why does he return to the Pearl???

or is she just chaining him up because she is afraid he would come with them? but in my opinion he wouldn't have left the pearl


or

does he mean, jack changes? because he 's willing to give up his own freedom?

Well, that is a way the Jack is developing, Thrugh the first 1 and a half movies, he really didn't want to commit, but about half was through the 2nd movie, you could start to see the development of his character in that area, so, in the 3rd movie he will be ready to limit his freedom, to some degree, so be with Liz. that's what I think he's trying to get across without really giving anything away lol

Ok someone just said this:

So if we look at the end from that point of view then clearly Jack accepts his obligations towards Liz(by coming back to save her and by staying on the ship) so he can have a relationship with her. And she chains him on the ship because she wants to force him to accept those obligations(so he can be with her). At the same time, though he stays on the ship because of her, he knows that by being with her he doesn't have to limit his freedom because she is a "pirate" too as he himself tells her.

So they basically find out that they are PERFECT for one another!

he learns that with her..he wont be completley tied down

if it's that what he meant, then it's great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

but we figured that out long before he said that, didn't we?

YEs lol

I hope thats what Ted means..he speaks alot of crap when he could have made the point a whole lot more simple..that explains why the dialoge in his movies can be so hard to understand at times..

and its basically her saying "I want to be with you."

I think..

yeah...it'S clear...like we said, they prooved eachother how they could be and how good they know eachother ...so you think good news?

I bloody hope so lol

yeah, me tooo! and it'S still so long....maybe i'm getting crazybefore the movie comes out, but who cares?

are all these tidbits we get from Ted real? cause if they are i might pee my pants with excitement.

thats a clear lead if i ever saw one.

jack has always loved his freedom, but he is learning to sacrifice it in some ways in order to pursue relationships that are important to him.

that makes it so clear. is this real?~?~?! its like one of those "too good to be true" moments. lol.

it certainly makes tons of sense. its beautiful

Originally posted by katelovespirate
are all these tidbits we get from Ted real? cause if they are i might pee my pants with excitement.

thats a clear lead if i ever saw one.

jack has always loved his freedom, but he is learning to sacrifice it in some ways in order to pursue relationships that are important to him.

that makes it so clear. is this real?~?~?! its like one of those "too good to be true" moments. lol.

it certainly makes tons of sense. its beautiful



who should know if it's real? I really hope so, but ...we don't know yet

She literally LIMITS his freedom in that scene and he is pretty much OK with it ..it symbolizes that he has now accepted that SHE is what he wants in HIS life..

and she is basically saying..".I'll be yours" by doing this to him she becomes his pirate for him.

She MAKES him be hers!! she MAKES him stay for her..and her ALONE

AHAHA he would have stayed anyway but by her doing this..she makes it ALL about him staying to protect HER

yeah i think he is totally finally okay with her limiting his freedom--- but then, is she? she seems unsure and completely a wreck. its clear she wants him so bad in that scene--- she doesn't care a hoot about will in the last few scenes... but will she really go for it with Jack? has she developed that far?

i think yes. i mean she's acting like a pirate since the beginning of 2. first she threatens Beckett...later she chains jack...i think she has developed. and why then did she cry at the end? only because she gave jack no chance of escape or why???

and she always wanted more freedom!

So yeah..its basically her saying Yes I want you to be my man jack(fight/sacrifice yourself for me again)..I am yours.(I'll be your pirate)

Its basically about her crying over losing the one she loves..he would have stayed anyway..so she just feels as if she has lost him..and he means a whole lot more to her now.

like losing a loved one in battle or something..

but she thought jack was going to die.... she didn't know at that point Tia could bring him back... or did she?

jeez...he really DOES talk in riddles!!

But im agreeing with what you all say

Lovelyone, i think you've hit the nail on the head with the fact that she limits his freedom within the last scene.

And also, with the EITC on the rise, Pirates won't have must freedom left to speak of... so everyone will have to make changes...

And Jack is already making them for her

Originally posted by katelovespirate
but she thought jack was going to die.... she didn't know at that point Tia could bring him back... or did she?

I think she doesn't know it...but in fact it doesn't matter...even after Tia said that she could bring him back and Barabossa comes, she doesn't look different, she's in spite of that sad, Or? Can't remember exactly.

IMO her facial expression is something along the lines of "oh gosh the adventures just never end with this man, even after he dies..."


so i love how liz and Jack both repeatedly get taken out by stuff they dont see coming in 2---- Jack getting hit on the head by the bar in the wheel, Liz getting grabbed from behind by the kraken, etc... its so funny how they keep trying to deny what is so obvious, just a great metaphor...

Originally posted by katelovespirate
but she thought jack was going to die.... she didn't know at that point Tia could bring him back... or did she?

I think she knew Jack was going to stay because she had realized by this point he had come back for her..So before he goes she makes it so he knows that she is his?

I just interpret that to mean that the things that seem to bind us, our relationships for example, really make us free. Jack isn't free when we first meet him. He's chained to the idea of his own freedom. He can't do whatever he wants because he feels he can't make any choice that would limit his freedom. It's a paradox, but if you stop thinking about it, it just clicks.

willofthewisp, i totally agree with you!

Or it could be that she realizes he is willing to change for her but she is soooo not ready for that?? YET Like we used to say

someone else has said this:



and we have to remember..that Jack gets what Jack wants!

this is his change!! this is what will stop him from perishing with the new world

change is deffinately the word for these two films.

Everyone needs to change to adjust...but i dont think jack is going to go down without a fight.

Elizabeth changes; she becomes more piratey

Will changes; He holds connotations of going a little darker (throwing the knife at the table..)

Jack IS changing; But remember...the writers can't change him too much, because this is captain jack sparrow...the audience loves him enough as he is...taking something away from him may be too dangerous...

"What a ship is...what the black pearl really is...is freedom"

To some extent i get the feeling that the black pearl kind of materialises what jack sees within himself.

"She's just a ship" ... and that right there is his turning point...

Those spoken words epitimise Jack Sparrow's change;


"What a ship is...what the black pearl really is...is freedom"
...
"What I Am...what I really want to be...is free from societies rules and regulations. I want to live by my rules...and nothing will take that away from me"...



"She's just a ship"...

.....

"I'm just a man... and a man can only have so much freedom before it becomes his own worst enemy..."

PS ... those in bold were not words he has used (just so no1 gets confused again about another one of my confusing posts lol) ...just what i think the words within the films symbolise....

OMG very good points!!^^

when you think about it..because he has accepted to be chained down he then shows just how free he really can be now that he wants to be with her

He jumps into the kraken with such an amazing confidence..he feels as if he can face anything now...nothing is going to hold him back because he has Elizabeth.

so the answee is..Jack can have a relationship and it makes him a stronger man in the end..so that will probably be the ending, he will be with someone..obviously Liz..

that was a GREAT post T. Maria. awesome. its SO true.

wow im going to have to digest that for a while. every time i picture Jack saying "she's only a ship, mate" i flip out cause its so hott.

but its really the turning point for him... a huge turning point for his character and all the relationships.

Love makes you strong, brave, free to do what it is you need to do.

and Liz's line "hes right, we have to head for land" signifies something too i think... for her land has always represented being tied down, but here's she's pushing them all towards that, looking directly at jack, basically saying, okay its time to take this forward...

I think elizabeth finds HER freedom within Jack just as much as he finds his within her...

Notice;

He talks about the Black Pearl to her...Tells her that its about freedom...he's telling this to ELIZABETH, which indicates that Jack finds a different kind of freedom within her.

I also think that maybe elizabeth realises this;

"I always knew you were a good man..."

IMO this creates a bond between them...she knew that as soon as he said the words;

"Its just a ship"

That he had realised that he did not have his own freedom anymore...he was sacrificing his freedom for the good of the crew...for her.

She told him he was a good man because he realised that her freedom was more important than his own...he sacrificed himself and came back for her...but she was ultimately his freedom at the end of DMC... she made him realise that to be a man that he would have more freedom from opening himself up to her...making her understand what it meant to be free (island within POTC1) when no one else understood...

And for that; she realised what a good man he really was

Yes. He was a coward before..he was running away from things because there was no one there to fight for...

and that is a significant line..

also is the "abandon ship or abandon hope" line of any significance?

yeeah, abandon Will or abandon your freedom ...could be

yeah i think the "abandon ship or abandon hope" line is going to come out in 3, if your theories on pirates having to change to survive... ya know? like they will have to abandon their pirate ways in some parts in order to survive.

I'm thinkin that Liz isnt ready yet..she seems to be forcing herself to go back to land with that line.. and she knows that she is going to abandon him on the ship only seconds later "abandon ship or abandon hope" maybe she feels as if right now Jack is a scary thing to embrace "we're not free yet love" I think she still needs her moment where she accepts she wants him in her life...maybe when she was all crying later on?

It is as if he has scared her a bit by showing he can love her..she's not all that ready for it..I dunno..she's one hard character to suss out

oh bother. lizzie lizzie lizzie. we all KNOW for SURE what you should do, so take our advice and do it.

i really, really think they might put a sex scene in 3. obviously not a real one, but a fade out during an intense kiss, wake up next to each other one.

they have been going on and on with all their sexual references, and all that. its high time they concluded them, ya know?

LOL..Yeh I think they will put a sex scene in there! they better!

thinking about it..Jack has had 2 films to realize he wants to love Elizabeth and let go of his old way of life..I'm sure jack was tempted in movie 1 by the idea

Elizabeth is only just beginning to realize that her old life is not really the one she wants....Liz needs 2 films to realize too She's had her temptation..and now she needs to embrace it in movie 3.

Thats the mark of a good actress...discression lol

And thats why we love the pairing...they are both cryptic characters, and the moment you think they will do one thing, they do something totally different

Jack is an onion (yes...im shreking it here lol) ..hes got alot of layers and they need to be peeled away...and the closest person to get in that far has been elizabeth.

Gibbs told will that Jack plays it close to the chest now "and a hard learned lesson it was" (foreshadowing perhaps?) ...but a few scenes later hes telling Elizabeth about freedom...and i think that freedom is Jacks ultimate weakness....


He is afraid to be TRULY free...free to love...so he HIDES behind these material posessions (oooo Lovelyone your theory is making sense to me now lol!) of what makes a pirate....to be a pirate you have to be free from consequence, society...free from everything...

And jack will never be truly free from any of these things...because he is a good man...and good men are tied down in some way...

But when Jack is telling Elizabeth about being free...about how she WANTS to be free...i have a feeling that he may be talking about himself, also.....

---sorry guys, my computer made me post before i had finished!

He loves things that cant love him back!

I've been saying that for months and months and people wouldn't believe me ..I told people that without Love jack would crumble as a man. He needs it to survive in the furure or he will perish..I was saying that since before I even realized about the Jack needeng to change or he will persih as a person thing...then I saw thatthe dog basically told me that he wants love..and now that he has it he is going to be brave for thos he loves (bone in his mouth on a throne)

I love your theories they are ALL making sense!!

Also I it seems that as soon as Jack accepted to change he had his death awakening moment

which makes me think..that as soon as Liz accepts Jack..Will is going to kill her and it will be her awakening moment

and as soon as Will realizes that he has chosen his father instead of Liz.as in Liz means so little to him now that he killed her)..he will have his awakening moment..I think Jack might stab him..or he will kill himself..

OFFER OF IMMORTALITY turned down by Jack..to save Elizabeth..so Calypso helps Jack/Odysseus return home to his penelope


EVERYONE can be brought back when Tia dahma's around So I think they are going to make Will forget..but Liz and Jack will stay together.

Or Will will redeem himself by leaving them both..and then forgetting about the tradgedy so he can be with his father or something.

Ok folks, this is the scene i was refering to when i stated that Maybe jack is refecting himself within the words he is speaking to Elizabeth...and she may also be mirroring her own words also....

They're talking about freedom AGAIN...and what they think the other would consider as being free, when ultimately they think that way about freedom themselves...




Jack Sparrow: My tremendous intuitive sense of the female creature informs me that you are troubled.

Elizabeth Swann: I just thought I'd be married by now. I'm so ready to be married.



Jack Sparrow: You know... Lizzy... I *am*... captain of a ship. And *being* captain of a ship, I could in fact perform a... marriage. Right here. Right on this deck. Right... *now*!

Elizabeth Swann: No, thank you.

Jack Sparrow: Why not? We *are* very much alike, you and I. I and you. Us.

Elizabeth Swann: Oh. Except for a sense of honor, and decency and-and a moral center. And personal hygiene.



Jack Sparrow: Trifles. You *will* come over to my side, I know it.

Elizabeth Swann: You seem very certain.

Jack Sparrow: One word love: curiosity. You long for freedom. You long to do what you want to do because you want it. To act on selfish impulse. You want to see what it's like. One day, you won't be able to resist.

Elizabeth Swann: Why doesn't your Compass work?

Jack Sparrow: Uh my Compass works fine.

Elizabeth Swann: Because you and I *are* alike, and there will come a moment when you have a chance to show it. To do the right thing.

Jack Sparrow: I *love* those moments. I like to wave at them as they pass by.

Elizabeth Swann: You'll have the chance to do something... something courageous. And when you do, you'll discover something: that you're a good man.

Jack Sparrow: All evidence to the contrary.

Elizabeth Swann: I have faith in you. Want to know why?

Jack Sparrow: Do tell, dearie.

Elizabeth Swann: Curiosity. You're going to want it. A chance to be admired. And gain the rewards that follow. You won't be able to resist. You're going to want to know... what it tastes like.

Jack Sparrow: I *do* want to know what it tastes like.

Elizabeth Swann:but - seeing as you're a good man I know you will *never* put me in a position that would compromise my honor.



Elizabeth Swann: I'm proud of you, Jack.

Gibbs: Land ho!

Jack Sparrow: I want my jar of dirt.


^^^^ also, this line at the end is significant....hes realised the freedom that he wants..and suddenly he is faced with it...and he once again wants to hide behind the thing that makes him a pirate...which is what he considers to be 'freedom'....his material objects

PS sorry lovelyone...but that was such a brilliant theory that you came up with, and it is deffinately very true!!

ok, ill shut up now lol


******

LOL great Post!!

yes he chose the Jar of dirt again and he got one MOTHER of a wakeup call to STOP LOVING MATERIAL OBJECTS YOU IDIOT!..they cant make you brave in times of DANGER!

he almost runs after Liz in a time of danger (black spot) but instead he makes a decision..and this decision is what wakes him the hell up to Elizabeth and how much more she means to him later on

Jar of dirt BETRAYS JACK

Lovely One...if any one of your theories comes true, I'll run through the cinema and praise your name!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


...and it's not typical for me, I'm a shy person

also ive just realised;


Elizabeth Swann: But - seeing as you're a good man I know you will *never* put me in a position that would compromise my honor.





Elizabeth Swann: I'm proud of you, Jack.


Gibbs: Land ho!



Jack Sparrow: I want my jar of dirt.



The thoery has GOT to work....because WHY would JACk need his dirt if he is going ON LAND?!!!!

Was it not to protect him whilst at sea!?!?!?!


Therefore he MUST have been troubled by what their conversation transpired to....because he instantly wanted the jar of dirt (which is materialistic of his pirate 'heritage' freedom) even though they were going on land....


Freedom is the weakness of Jack Sparrow...He SAYS he's free...but He is only truly free when he is around Elizabeth....

Originally posted by katelovespirate
oh bother. lizzie lizzie lizzie. we all KNOW for SURE what you should do, so take our advice and do it.

i really, really think they might put a sex scene in 3. obviously not a real one, but a fade out during an intense kiss, wake up next to each other one.

they have been going on and on with all their sexual references, and all that. its high time they concluded them, ya know?

This is a great point...she has all kinds of intense sexual moments with Jack, where he is coming onto her and she responds, likewise by the time the curiosity scene rolls around...she starts off shy and giddy, then frustrated, then starts flirting herself...and then kisses him in their final scene....

There is only one sexually implied scene with Will...when she says, "If it weren't for these bars, I'd have you already." Did anybody else notice...I think Will's a little turned off by her boldness...he doesn't even kiss her bye there.....now if she had said that line to Jack..he may have broken down the bars so she could "have him"....

HAHAHAHA thats SUCH a great point. so true.

its always good when the man is as bold as the woman. otherwise, its wierd. lol.

Wow, theories are running abound here.....all of them sound great and make lots of sense....I love all the theories and clues and symbolisms that point to a Jack and Liz relationship...that's why I had started that thread "All Clues Point to Jack and Liz"....but we've abandon that one and moved on to others....it's funny how everytime we start a new thread...it always comes back to this...Why Disney want us to take notice of the Jack/Liz relationship.....

I do believe that Jack and Elizabeth are attracted to each other...both are in denial...him...because he thinks a relationship with Liz will clash with his pirate life and his "freedom" (which we now know isn't all that free) and her, because she thinks she is suppose to love Will and is scared to love Jack (maybe she is afraid to love him because she thinks if she gives in he may hurt her)...but when he comes back at the end - basically sacrifices his freedom for hers and the others - she now realizes he is a good man...and now she is really scared. We have to remember she is a young girl...she does act without thinking...on that selfish impulse. She didn't have to kiss Jack..she wanted to kiss Jack.. she may have wanted to see if he would kiss her back...and when he did she knew he wanted her...not just for sex but as a soulmate..she's not ready to face that yet.

Every line in this movie uttered by Elizabeth and Jack have very underlying meanings. T. Maria you have pointed out some very good ones....

As I said....When Liz first shows up on the Pearl....We now know (thanks to Ted) that Jack has been thinking about Elizabeth (and from the "vex" clues given by Gibbs and Tia) - so it's no surprise that he starts flirting with her in a very sexual manner just as she appears "it should be a dress or nothing, I happen to have no dress in my cabin." (gosh, I would love to see you naked)....then in the Compass conversation,
"It points to the thing (quick once over of Elizabeth by Jack's sexy chocolate brown eyes) you want most in this world." She is so flustered by him...she can't help having that shy little smirk on her face..."Jack, are you telling the truth?"....i LOVE THE WAY HE IS LOOKING AT HER RIGHT AFTER HE SAYS MR. GIBBS WE HAVE OUR HEADING...and then does that little prance, a sweep of the arm, invites her onto the Black Pearl, "Miss Swann"...then of course, the Persuade Me Scene...he takes his flirting a step further "Persuade Me." "you do know will taught me how to handle a sword." He kind of breathes in here like "oh, man does she know what she is doing to me" ...then turns around and says, "As I said, Persuade Me"....the way he looks at her..he wants to jump her bones right then and there, and she gets that little frustrated look and walks off...and he grunts like "Hmmm.That girl, she turns me on"....and then she's all dreamy and smiling thinking about what Jack meant by "persuade me, a dress or nothing"...Norrington notices and calls her out on it and she is embarrased because Norrington caught her daydreaming about Jack....then the compass points to Jack....

She is trouble on the steps (her wedding dress has just sunk to the bottom of the ocean :bye, bye Will..hello Jack)....Up walks Jack and on a whim actually offers her marriage....then they have the fabulous curiosity speech..."Oh, I have faith in you." ELizabeth believes in Jack. No one else does (except Gibbs, really). Then they almost Kiss.. Liz is now responding to Jack's flirting and she flirts back herself. Then on the island the compass points at Jack yet again, now she is frustrated again...she's suppose to want to find Will...not want Jack.

He shows back up at the Pearl (while the Kracken is attacking - when he could have easily made it to land, safe and sound)...he has sacrificed his precious freedom to return for Liz and the others...then he says, "Abandon ship, into the long boat"....Gibbs: "Jack, the Pearl?" (because Gibbs knows that the Pearl has been everything Jack has ever wanted...he just can't believe Jack is giving up the Pearl), and Jack responds "She's ONLY A SHIP, mate." (yes, this is the most significant sign in the movie that Jack has changed...he has let go his material objects, they no longer bring him the fullfillment and happiness it seeks...what does is standing right in front of him)..."jack, right, we have to head for Land." Look how they look at each other...he came back for her, sacrificed his freedom for her - now she is really scared...she kisses Jack and Jack responds...very hot...He is full of admiration...she has acted very piratey.....I think she is upset....she is in disbelief as to what she has done when they are at Tia's cabin...she may be thinking back to that kiss...I think it backfired on her...I think she thought it wasn't going to mean anything...but now she can't get it off her mind and the way jack responded proved he loves her or at the very least wants her for more than just a roll in the hay..

I'll shut up ...this is a very long post and we are all basically saying the same things...just wanted to talk and get it off my chest....

this is the best post ever. i loved it. i think my favorite part was the "will taught me how to handle a sword" explanation. Please post that on the "translating the movie" thread, LOL.... it is SOOOOOOOO funny.

this is great. keep going!!!

LoveThemTigers, great post!!

The thing that i find admirable about elizabeth is the fact that EVEN THOUGH she knows that many of the stories about jack are probably not real (seems as though she has already found out about on of them in POTC1) She still "Has faith" in him...


You are very right Lovethemtigers, besides elizabeth Gibbs is the only other person to truly believe in him...and these are the only two character to get remotely close to the man that jack really is...he has to hide himself to be called a 'pirate', because pirats are not supposed to be bold and brave and have a conscience?

By the end of 2 we know that Jack has a conscience...we know that he is sacrificing his own freedom for the people who have been through everything with him.....and above all, we know that even though he is losing his freedom in staying behind for evreyone else...he is also being set free by elizabeth in another way...

I think the line; "He was a good man" is SOOOOOOOOO important!

A. The word 'good' never goes with 'Pirate'
B. That sentence shows admiration
C. She knew that he had done it because she told him he would

It will become apparent in 3 just how significant everything is...everything the writers will choose to display within the story, they will do it for a reason...


Theres a big reason for Jack and Elizabeth...and i for one cannot wait to see what that reason is !!!!

Ok- So I am a total dumb butt. I have a few ideas about the ending, and anyone can tell that sparks are flying between Jack and Elizabeth- I thought their playfullness on the island in the first one was a foreshadowing of some romance to come. They have good chemistry- not to mention that Jack brings out the dark side in her- a dark side that I think many women have- that is never unleashed.

BUT- please explain this to me- she kisses him with such emotion and longing, but then chains him- leaving him to quite possibly DIE??? How can this mean she loves him? I mean- I think against her own good judgement she does love him, but how could she chain him- leaving him there for death?

Please explain.

Oh gee... LovelyOne will have to explain that to you, cause we have been debating for about 2 months now. LOL...

excelent post LTT (can I call you LTT for short?) lol

and T.Maria..i thought that too..you can see how much it means to him when she says that she still has faith in him to be brave for her..thats just gotta mean the world to him.
---------------------------------
Basically they have explained to us what is actually going on in Jacks and Liz minds so far...I dont think they are giving anything away yet basically its:

Jack has figured out what he wants..and its to be tied down to Lizzie

and Liz..

WHO THE HECK KNOWS??...they said that you can see why Liz does this to him..but it raises up two possibilities:

1. She has chosen Will

2. She has chosen Jack

LMAO

so the question is.who do you actually want woman?


So yeah lol...they aren't giving much away on the Liz front..because I honestly think she has no clue herself..but on the Jack front..its already clear as day..he wants Elizabeth

Originally posted by ottergirl25
Ok- So I am a total dumb butt. I have a few ideas about the ending, and anyone can tell that sparks are flying between Jack and Elizabeth- I thought their playfullness on the island in the first one was a foreshadowing of some romance to come. They have good chemistry- not to mention that Jack brings out the dark side in her- a dark side that I think many women have- that is never unleashed.

BUT- please explain this to me- she kisses him with such emotion and longing, but then chains him- leaving him to quite possibly DIE??? How can this mean she loves him? I mean- I think against her own good judgement she does love him, but how could she chain him- leaving him there for death?

Please explain.

well..its hard to tell..you would think it was cold hearted ..but she actually seemed to be finding it very hard to leave him there to die..he had to basically make her go by waking her up a little bit "pirate"..she alsmost kissed him again too...

liz is a closed book. LOL. but i have a theory thats where all the naked lizzie jokes are going- she is finally going to strip down and BE HONEST and OBVIOUS about what she wants.
we are finally going to see her heart.

hopefully anyways. LOL.

I think we talked about Liz chaining Jack up NOT because she wanted him dead, but for a combination of reasons which include
-she gave in to her desire, and wanted to put her desire (which frightened her) as far away as possible
-she wanted to save the crew, and prove to herself she still loves Will (but does she? we dont know)
-she saw Jack's heart, which was more heroic than even he realized. she wanted to help him be the man that he WAS truly.
-she wanted to prove to him she was a pirate. he had come back to save her, fulfilling her prediction that he would come over to her side, and then she had to return the favor.

but we don't know what the biggest reason was. GRRRRR lol

I agree with you^^ this woman is so irritating

To be honest..I cant imagine Liz actually doing that just to prove that she has chosen Will..if she was SO certain that she was meant to be wih Will..then she wouldn't have felt the need to even remove Jack in the first place..if he wasnt such a tempting threat.

She may have done it to prove to herself that she doesnt need Jack..the very notion of doing that to him "to proove she loves will" tells us that she really does want Jack...but is terrified of the thought..

the writers have said that she does it to "punish jack for betraying Will"

I honestly think this has a double meaning..its not what everyone would think it was at first glance..the very theme of the story and what happens with the Kraken seconds later shows us what "punish jack" really means..she was getting her own little selfish/sexual tension out of "punishing Jack"..you know what I mean lol

her lust got the better of her.

have the writers really said that? Where does everybody find out what the writers actually think? im so confused, and slightly irritated. If that's how the writers meant that scene to go, the actors played it totally wrong.

screw the writers. we know why Liz REALLY did it.

hahahaha. oh geee....

no i don't believe it was for punishment...then she never would have said: "there is no other way, don't you see it?" (you can't refer this scene on revenge for will)

I agree with you..when I read that I was like?? OOOKKKKK so everything I just saw there between Jack and Liz was totally false..the way she tries to kiss him again etc..?

I have a feeling the writers are trying to confuse the very stupid and gullible lol

even when I saw that the first time I didnt see it as her punishing Jack for betraying Will...I saw it as Liz finally giving into the temptation of Jack..and removing the temptation..that was the very FIRST time i saw it too..before all of our shipping

Actually..when you look at the ending..her reason for "doing it" is pretty obvious..

its the one that concludes the curiosity scene

she was basically saying "the only way you can ever have me..is if YOU do the right thing for me then you will gain the rewards that follow(me)"

and what do we see happen?

after he does the right thing for her..she basically gives herself to him by becoming HIS little pirate

and she is the one who literally ties him down at the end.

I would never say it was punishment..Its more of a persuasion

yes, even the way they both look at eachother in this scene, during the other persons are still aboard

Oh wow- I am truly enjoying this thread. I wish I owned the movie so I could watch that kiss scene between Jack and Liz again- it was exciting!

Ok- here is a question/comment. The voodoo/hoohoo woman (think I spelled that wrong) why in the world did they even go back to her hut if they did not think there was SOME way to save Jack? Liz looked very distraught in that final scene. I personally think she feels strong regret over leaving Jack to the Kraken; she knows her feelings for him are strong- and she is totally confused. NOW she realizes she made a mistake- and she wants to find a way to save him.

The question is... OMG how can we wait until next Spring!!!??? What happens once they find him??? Can you imagine the tension, the emotion... the fear and longing between all three of them? *whew*

I am a big fan of the movie version of Phantom of the Opera from 2004. There is thins totally wonderful scene where Christine and Phantom are performing on stage together- it is not supposed to be Phantom, he is setting a trap for her. Anyway, her love, Raoul, is watching from a box seat. The drama unfolds, and as soon as Phantom comes on stage- he mesmerizes Christine- it is totally evident that she is massively attracted to him, even though she "should not be." He is dark, bad, but oh so charming. Raoul looks on- and there is such hurt in his eyes. He can tell the love of his life is being seduced before his very eyes... and I think that even though she ends up with Raoul in the end (Phantom wants her, but can not bear to lead her into a life of solitude with him- so he send her off ith Raoul)- Raoul will always remember the manner in which Christine responded to the Phantom- and I do not think she, her body and mind, would ever respond to Raoul in that same primal sensual manner.

Ok- so the reason I say this is because, that scene when Liz kisses Jack, and Will sees it all- his heart is breaking. Will is like Raoul- he is all "light and good, sweet and wonderful." No matter the reason why she kisses Jack- she DID it- she kissed him with an emotion and longing that can not be denied. Even in the end, if Liz chooses Will- or what if JACK chooses for her to be with Will? (as Phantom did with Christine) Will will always and forever remember that kiss between the woman he loves and a rackish Captain Jack Sparrow. I don't think Will will ever illicit the same... hunger from Liz that Jack does. I just think that kiss will haunt all three of them forever- no matter if she chained him up- she was fighting her emotions, and she failed miserably- she is falling in love with him. She could have kissed Jack, backed off and laughed sinisterly after cuffing him- but she did not. She hated what she felt she had to do, and she wanted to kiss him again! She obviously loves Will also- but they are two very different loves. Warm safe love versus dark exciting love/lust.

Sorry to ramble. You know, many many people hated Phantom 2004, but the people who loved it- LOVED it. They posted like this (still do) and discussed scenes in depth. The people who did not appreciate, or disliked, Dead Man's Chest- I simply think they just do not "get it." There is much more to this film than meets the eye.

hopefully this movie will end differently than phantom did!!!! lol

oh i hope so. I felt so bad for him i wouldve picked him over raoul anyday...

Oh~ I would have picked the Phantom too! Oh, I see no way these movies would end sad- no way. Jack will be glorious in some type of ending.

I spoke with my aunt today- she also loved part II. She thinks the ending was simple- no secrets- she thinks Liz has no feelings for Jack; she simply kissed him to distract him so she could place the cuffs on him. Then, she thinks Will will be upset with Liz once he finds out what she did- that she could be so coldhearted as to leave thier friend Jack behind. Her shrewdness will make him think twice about being in love with her... but she does not think Will will be angry or upst about the kiss. she feel the kiss way fake, manipulative.

*sight* I just don't think so!

Originally posted by ottergirl25
Oh~ I would have picked the Phantom too! Oh, I see no way these movies would end sad- no way. Jack will be glorious in some type of ending.

I spoke with my aunt today- she also loved part II. She thinks the ending was simple- no secrets- she thinks Liz has no feelings for Jack; she simply kissed him to distract him so she could place the cuffs on him. Then, she thinks Will will be upset with Liz once he finds out what she did- that she could be so coldhearted as to leave thier friend Jack behind. Her shrewdness will make him think twice about being in love with her... but she does not think Will will be angry or upst about the kiss. she feel the kiss way fake, manipulative.

*sight* I just don't think so!

well I disagree..if she had absolutely no feelings for Jack then why did she try so hard not to kiss him again at the end of that scene? That was after she chained him up..she found it so hard to not kiss him again..She even found it very hard to leave him..he had to prompt her to go.

I think she does have feelings for him and one of the main reasons she did that to him was because she is afraid of those feelings and the temptation of Jack. e had just proven to her that he loved her by coming back for her.

Also Jack wasnt unhappy about it he was perfectly happy with it..he even heard the chain rattle..stopped kissing..literally waited for her to do it and when she clanked it shut he smiled.

Also on the official script it says on the side

so yeah..lol I think you and your aunt read the ending pretty wrong

ALso there is the conclusion to the curiosity scene..She said the only way jack can get her is by doing the right thing for her..he did..so by the end of it all she becomes what HE wanted most..a "pirate"

they are both learning how to change for one another IMO.

yeah, of course she has feelings...and it was just to get him away for the moment... i mean if she had no feelings for him then she would not have to worry or cry about what she did.

Originally posted by ottergirl25
Oh~ I would have picked the Phantom too! Oh, I see no way these movies would end sad- no way. Jack will be glorious in some type of ending.

I spoke with my aunt today- she also loved part II. She thinks the ending was simple- no secrets- she thinks Liz has no feelings for Jack; she simply kissed him to distract him so she could place the cuffs on him. Then, she thinks Will will be upset with Liz once he finds out what she did- that she could be so coldhearted as to leave thier friend Jack behind. Her shrewdness will make him think twice about being in love with her... but she does not think Will will be angry or upst about the kiss. she feel the kiss way fake, manipulative.

*sight* I just don't think so!

The ending was simple - how so...this is a very complicated movie with many underlying themes...and symbolisms....Liz and Jack have a great attraction...it's hard not to notice it...and to say the kiss was fake...no Way...that is like the hottest kiss ever...especially the part where she almost takes a second taste of the delectible Captain's mouth.
So, your aunt thinks that all the scenes that took place between Jack and Liz were just to fill up time...useless flirting..I really find it hard to believe that Disney would devote about 75% of this movie to "filler" time just to have Liz manipulate Jack into a kiss..there's way more to it than that...hey go read the thread where T. Maria posted her FAnFic story retelling DMC in her translation...and it will explain everything we are talking about...about How Liz REally feels about Jack...it's a classic historical romance...

AGREED^^^^

If anything the relationship has just moved UP a whole notch..they have both just done what the other wanted most before the end (curiosity scene)..they are changing for eachother..to be better suited tfor one another.

I honestly think that Liz chaining him up had nothing to do with William..it was to make Jack be hers IMO..to die protecting HER..she made it all about her and him, and the chain is symbolic..she literally ties him down to his new obligations..which is her..its basically letting him know that he has her IMO

and this whole attraction thing hasn't just started with DMC

it actually started in CotBP and if the trilogy ends Jack/Liz..people will realize that even back then there was this whole obvious angle to the story where Liz has actually always wanted someone like Jack Sparrow and that kind of life since before she even met him..

and Jack has always wanted love in his life since movie 1..but was too afraid to take it

thats why I think it would be really stupid if they ended it Will/Liz..because it would make no sense to have all of this stuff in movie 1...and even more of this stuff in movie 2 and the leave it with will/Liz..it would make much More sense to end it Jack/Liz..its been obvious since movie 1.

You know what..I would be really pissed at Disney for adding this whole angle into both movies...and then snatching it away..what is the POINT?? thats all I have to say..and i think the critics would be shouting the same thing

"Ok she chose will..but thought this was a story about Jack Sparrow?..why has she gone off with him after so many hints and clues in movie 1 and 2 that she really belongs with Jack?..and its CLEAR that Jack wants HER in his life and no one else.."

I agree LovelyOne...it would make no sense to end the trilogy on a Will/Liz connection...and there are clues in POTC 1 that also point to Jack and Liz...and their attraction. The rescue scene...just so many things....they are destined for each other...despite Will.

EDIT - ok not 3rd post in a row..I agree with you so much!! It honestly seems as if the true theme of PotC is actually flying right over the audiences heads..which is JACK WANTS TO LOVE LIZ..and if he doesn't get her he will probably crumble as a man..(read my quote in my sig people lol)

3rd post in a row

I bet you the writers are actually KICKING themselves about ending movie 1 so solidly with Will/Liz..they had no clue about making another 2 so they had to end it safely because the character of Jack Sparrow was such a risky one to add.

they have written themselves into a tight little corner..and if they end it with Will/liz after all of this Jack/Liz stuff that was there to just "fill up space" then they are going to be KICKING themselves even more me thinks..what a STUPID way to end a trilogy..why even bring up the whole notion of Jack/Liz in the middle of a story and then stamp it out?? Makes no bloody sense..WHAT SO EVER

it would make them look as if they were milking Jack/Liz for all they could..which is BAD script writing..and they will go down in history for bad script writing on PotC if thats what they are planning to do with the whole Jack/Liz aspect

The critics will be the first to pick up on it..they will probably slaughter them for doing it..and the audience would probably feel a tad pissed off at basically being teased with food and then having it taken away from them..

Believe me I have learned in film studies about writers who have been slaughtered for milking certain things and then ending the story on a whimper just to be "safe"

they will be torn apart for doing it..

....................i like POTO (phantom of the opera. hahaha! thats almost potc!!)

Originally posted by ivebeendepped43
....................i like POTO (phantom of the opera. hahaha! thats almost potc!!)

that was a book before it was a movie so people knew what to expect before it even came out..its like titanic..people knew they would be going in for a sad ending so it doesnt matter as much if the lead man doesnt get the girl...people know its a disaster before they even go to watch..so they expect the worst anyway

.PotC is different no one knows the ending..people want to leave feeling happy because its a summer block buster. They have the choice to either screw it up or make it good for the audience..and I think the best thing would be by giving Jack what he wants to feel most happy in life..and thats Elizabeth..otherwise he would lose out to pansy faced Will turner..what kind of ending is that? lol

Its clear from both movies that Jack is actually very lonly..screaming out for love.

lol pantsy fanced!

lol its true..Keira Knightly has more muscle than him..

lol yeah, it is true. "If you've never seen Keira Knightley, shes kinda like a more manly version of Orlando Bloom." thats 4 those who have seen the POTC2 Ask A Ninja vid. just incase u havent seen it, here it is!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dR_enVsVZ its hilarious!

yes soo true! o and i am one of those epople who LOVED phantom 2004!

but anywayz to answer your first question about why did they go to the hut if they thought there was no hope? Well because they were near the island and they had no boat or ship and since that was the closest place and they knew her, they went there for shelter and all that essential stuff. And also they might hjav ethought she could have helped in some way...afterall they did know she was magical or whatever. So maybe they htought there couldvae been a way but just didnt want to bring it up when they first arrived. but idk just wat i htought

Oh man! You guys are talking about POTO now?! I belonged to the Warner Brothers message board until they closed it down. So I am going to settle the score. Jack and the Phantom are NOT the same.

1. Jack never STALKS Liz
2. Jack doesn't wallow in his own self pity although he probably has a lot to mope about
3. Jack never tries to put Liz in any harm, unlike the Phantom who pulled a very dangerous stunt with Christine just to get her back into the lair.

So, in that movie, and many will disagree, I don't think the Phantom and Christine are meant to be together, but because Jack treats Liz differently and seems more in touch with himself than the Phantom ever was, he does deserve Liz.
He is lonely. You can tell during the beginning of DMC. Most of the time he's shown alone with the crew just talking about him. Isn't there a scene where he's going over maps or something and he sees the compass move? I think that whole thing was to show he actually leads a pretty solitary life. But it's a big turn on he doesn't complain about it.

actually i htink im going to change my mind. i totally agree with you willofthwisp. The Phantom is a weird creepy stalker guy, and Jack is none of that. Jack in the beginning of DMC isnt even aware of his feelings for Liz until he sees her again and it takes him awhile but he gets it, but when he does find out he doesnt stalk her and try to do things to harm her just so she will be with him. He actually knows how to get her, and his way od doing that is very subtle. And also they BOTH love eahc other. But Christine doenst love the phantom, He loves her. So yeah you are right, they a re completely different, other than the fact that there is still a love triangle going on in both movies

and Lizzie is way cooler than Christine. Christine just mopes around looking depressed, whining about her dad.

i love PoTO by the way, but PLEASE guys, dont compare the two.

Pirates is a happy escapist film full of laughs and good times and hott people. Jack is a hilarious rogue pirate, not a creepy sadistic deformed guy (i heart the phantom)...

lol.

They're anti-heroes, that's about it. But I just think POTC is closer to Star Wars than it is POTO. I love the Phantom, don't get me wrong, but Christine is not the girl for him.

Jack is willing to let Liz make realizations for herself and he never forces anything on her. He's flirty, duh, but he's pretty gentle and is usually straight with her. He's never done anything like, say, pretend to be her guardian angel for years. (poto reference) He gets to know her, "feel her out" (man, I wish he would feel her out).

You have to have that before you can have the scene where he throws her over his shoulder and takes her into the foliage of an abandoned island for some love making with only the palm trees looking down on them.

yes

ahhh I read about escapist stuff for literature and I figured out that I love escapist stuff! Like Pirates

indeed

sweet!

true, true

very

agreed

yup

m hm

sure

can't you open a thread where only you and Bwa ha ha can spoil all you smileys and let us discuss in a normal way, it really nerves when you have a lot of sides with smileys

ok, i said i would stop

but you didn't

alright so lets discuss!

well its hard to get back on topic once you get off topic...it gets too confusing