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Who takes it?

OE

Non-Jobbing Darkseid whips him until he becomes whipped cream

Captain Marvel eats him.

GDS beats him till he cries uncle.

Originally posted by Validus
Captain Marvel eats him.

With what?

Originally posted by Validus
Captain Marvel eats him.
Nah Ds has to much calorie in him it will make cm fat

Originally posted by batdude123
With what?
A fork

Originally posted by Validus
A fork

What would be the sides?

Current Captian Marvel would waste Darkseid, look holw tough he is and he hasnt even begun to understand how powerfull he is.

Originally posted by David_Richards
Current Captian Marvel would waste Darkseid, look holw tough he is and he hasnt even begun to understand how powerfull he is.

He's nothing to Darksied. A spec of nothing. He would be beaten by 3 million mind controlled daxamites. or a couple hundred avatars.

Darkseid. Darkseid made a LIVING out of killing Skyfather-level gods.

Odin was terrified of him.

Originally posted by Draco69
Darkseid. Darkseid made a LIVING out of killing Skyfather-level gods.

Odin was terrified of him.

I been trying to tell people that for ever. they have the nerve to say DS is a low to mid lvl sky father. LOL.

I thought Marvel only got Shazam's position and not necessarily his power. But I doubt Shazam himself could beat Darkseid anyway. What has Marvel done since taking over that makes him so powerful?

LOL well he certinly gets his ass kicked enough lol

Darkseid's defeats are highly exaggerated.

To Darkseid Fanboys im sure they are. Just recently Supes plowed his ass into the source wall.

Originally posted by Khem-Adam
Darkseid's defeats are highly exaggerated.

ur right. check out the new pics on the thread

Originally posted by David_Richards
To Darkseid Fanboys im sure they are. Just recently Supes plowed his ass into the source wall.

I think you fanboys missed something.

Originally posted by David_Richards
To Darkseid Fanboys im sure they are. Just recently Supes plowed his ass into the source wall.

After being saved from the Omega Effect by Wonder Woman. Who jumped in to protect Superman while he was down from Darkseid's first attack. If not for that Superman is likely a pile of ashes. And while Darkseid hasn't been too hot in Superman books recently that's only a couple of fights. It's not as though Darkseid makes a habit of getting beaten up.

Supes has been hit by the beams before, he hit doomsday with them and it did nothing at all.

Originally posted by David_Richards
Supes has been hit by the beams before, he hit doomsday with them and it did nothing at all.

you mean the darksied avatar hit Doomsday? and Superman has on occasion been protected by the source and other times, he's been saved by shields and other heroes.

Originally posted by David_Richards
Supes has been hit by the beams before,


Yes, and he didn't do too well. Even severely weakened Omega beams have hurt Superman just by indirect contact. At normal power Darkseid could more than give Superman a very bad day if those beams touch him. Superman himself said Supergirl jumping in front of the beams was risking her life, and Superman said Supergirl may be even more powerful than he is.



Nothing at all but kill Doomsday or down him hard enough to think him dead. The same Doomsday who was ignoring Superman's attacks as though Superman wasn't even there.

Originally posted by David_Richards
Supes has been hit by the beams before, he hit doomsday with them and it did nothing at all.
LOL Gotcha you have never ever read a ds comic before since the ob had no effect on supes in only 1 comic Adventures of Superman 595

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
LOL Gotcha you have never ever read a ds comic before since the ob had no effect on supes in only 1 comic Adventures of Superman 595
Juggernaut6666 just owned somebody.

Originally posted by badabing
Juggernaut6666 just owned somebody.

Okay no one has yet shown me a scan spacifically saying it wasnt Darkseid that Doomsday fought.

Since all his loses were retconned there is no need for that
Owned again

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
Since all his loses were retconned there is no need for that
Owned again

Sorry unless you can prove it with scans its just your opinion.

It has been told you many times by diffrent persons im not wasting my time to repost them just for you

You dont have to just provide me with links. and no one has shown me a scan saying it wasnt him fighting Doomsday.

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
Since all his loses were retconned there is no need for that

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
Since all his loses were retconned there is no need for that
Owned again

This could probably go either way. SHAZAM and Highfather are generally considered peers as members of The Quintessence, and we all know that Highfather = Darkseid. I may give DS the edge against Billy as he is in 52 due to greater experience and skill handling his power. Once Billy adjusts, though, this should be even.

LOL so in your opinion it wasnt him, anything else requires scans.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
This could probably go either way. SHAZAM and Highfather are generally considered peers as members of The Quintessence, and we all know that Highfather = Darkseid. I may give DS the edge against Billy as he is in 52 due to greater experience and skill handling his power. Once Billy adjusts, though, this should be even.
Good point.

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
Since all his loses were retconned there is no need for that
Owned again

In your opinion they were.

Yeah cause i have retconned his loses

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
Yeah cause i have retconned his loses
Once....Twice....Three times owned!

Originally posted by badabing
Once....Twice....Three times owned!
Im in a good shape today

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
Im in a good shape today
I can tell. flex

Unless you can provide scans you havent.

Originally posted by David_Richards
Unless you can provide scans you havent.
Here you go
http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/654/dslt6.jpg

Nitpicking, but Darkseid's beams didn't have no effect on Supes in the Casey issue. They were clearly wearing him down and he seemed to acknowledge the threat (and need to immediately break out of Darkseid's grip), although they had nowhere near their usual effect. Actually, the Omegas still overpowered HV just as DS physically won the contest of strength to get in that chokehold:

http://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=svsds5zn.jpg
http://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=svsds14gh.jpg
http://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=svsds20dc.jpg
http://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=svsds34ah.jpg
http://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=svsds47kl.jpg
http://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=svsds50za.jpg


Regardless, something to note is that Darkseid had just delivered a HUGE blast to Imperiex:


http://img264.imageshack.us/my.php?image=imperiex1eu.jpg
http://img410.imageshack.us/my.php?image=kismet0pq.jpg
http://img405.imageshack.us/my.php?image=imperiex16vc.jpg


Superman himself mentioned in MOS#117 that Darkseid was weakened by "the full expenditure of his Omega Effect." Now, while it doesn't say WHEN he expended him, IMO it's obvious he used up most of their power on Imperiex. The only other interpretation you could have is that he gave Imperiex (a being whom he acknowledged as a threat to his entire universe) a minor blast, then delivered huge blasts to Superman (a guy he'd punked in all previous encounters).


Since the OE had the same effect on Grayven as it had on Supes in the same issue:

http://img521.imageshack.us/my.php?image=banishment4yb.jpg


... Whereas earlier in OWAW, a blast meant not to harm Supees, but just goad The JLA into battle had more effect:


http://img484.imageshack.us/my.php?image=done7wa.jpg
http://img484.imageshack.us/my.php?image=done13vt.jpg


... That seems consistent with OWAW's plot. Also, Superman even whole sundipped was unable to do that much damage to Warworld. OTOH, it was implied that Warworld would be outright destroyed, realeasing Imperiex, if Darkseid blasted it:


http://img393.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fa68a8e2jpgorig4hx.jpg


Also notable is that his personal power, once recharged by Amazon prayer, literally recharged the entire planet of Apokolips, which had been sucked dry of its energy.

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
Here you go
http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/654/dslt6.jpg

Oh forgot this
OWNED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by David_Richards
Unless you can provide scans you havent.

Originally posted by badabing

LOL well Since he cant beat Doomsday he cant beat the current Cap marvel

Originally posted by David_Richards
LOL well Since he cant beat Doomsday he cant beat the current Cap marvel
We can't be sure of that. Marvel's grasp of Shazam's powers are still not shown. On paper, I agree that this would be a tough fight for Darkseid. I won't count Darkseid out until we see what happens with Marvel in the next issues of Trials.

he has the full powers of a lord of order. I think he can do the job.

Enlogated man is the new Dr fate, everyone cry with me.

Ds has easily beaten Mordru a lord of chaos

Mordu hasnt been at full power in the DCU for a long time.

Originally posted by David_Richards
Mordu hasnt been at full power in the DCU for a long time.
swe_bum_down

Originally posted by David_Richards
he has the full powers of a lord of order. I think he can do the job.

Enlogated man is the new Dr fate, everyone cry with me.
Sorry, you'll have to show me scans. It's only your opinion until you do.

Originally posted by badabing
Sorry, you'll have to show me scans. It's only your opinion until you do
another ownage this time by Bada

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
another ownage this time by Bada
flex

What makes you think Darkseid can't beat Doomsday? He essentially HAD him beaten with a single blast. He had enough time to stroll over to DD's body, make a speech, heat some rubble until it was molten as a tomb, and walk away. Doomsday didn't get up until after the molten rubble had fully solidified -- a process that logically takes at least a minute. Looks to me like a single Darkseid force blast that wasn't even point blank range incapacitated DD for over a minute:


http://img393.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fbdd33c9jpgorig3ii.jpg
http://img393.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fbdd33c6jpgorig7jh.jpg
http://img393.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fb9b1381jpgorig5nq.jpg
http://img393.imageshack.us/img393/8751/fb9b1381jpgorig5nq.th.jpg
http://img451.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rubble3ib.jpg

The last three scans are panels seperated, just to showcase my point regarding how long he was down. Anywho, DD likewise took him out with a sneak attack.


All that really proves is that if DD has an opening and surprise, he can take out someone of Darkseid's durability. Something that I never questioned. OTOH, it also shows one Darkseid blast can incapacitate Doomsday. In a real fight, if DS can incapacitate him with a single good blast from afar, how would Doomsday even make it to him to land an attack?


Anyhow, the avatar retcon:

http://img442.imageshack.us/my.php?image=f9cca559jpgorig2ra.jpg

Why should I show you scans when you refuse to show me yours?

Originally posted by badabing
Sorry, you'll have to show me scans. It's only your opinion until you do.
I have already explained this.

It doesnt make spacific refference to the Doomsday fight.

Originally posted by badabing
Sorry, you'll have to show me scans. It's only your opinion until you do. Originally posted by David_Richards
It doesnt make spacific refference to the Doomsday fight.
LOL, as long as you're reading this I'm happy.

One thing.
How does this retcon every one of his losses?
How does this show how powerful that Avatar is?
How does this show how powerful the real Darky is?
It doesn't, it just says, he has used this talent more than once.
http://img442.imageshack.us/my.php?image=f9cca559jpgorig2ra.jpg

lol I prove you wrong in another thread and you cant debate logcially in this one?

Originally posted by David_Richards
Okay no one has yet shown me a scan spacifically saying it wasnt Darkseid that Doomsday fought. Originally posted by David_Richards
Sorry unless you can prove it with scans its just your opinion.
Originally posted by badabing
Sorry, you'll have to show me scans. It's only your opinion until you do. Originally posted by badabing
LOL, as long as you're reading this I'm happy. Originally posted by David_Richards
and you dont get that as logn as your reading Im happy.
Originally posted by David_Richards
lol I prove you wrong in another thread and you cant debate logcially in this one?
Honestly, you've never proved anybody wrong and I borrowed your own debating logic. In essance, you've just called your debating illogical and have managed to, once again, OWN YOURSELF!

It doesn't make a specific reference to any fight, but it does state that Darkseid in his true form has never lost before, whereas his avatars have.

"They are so much weaker than his true form that they can even be beaten in battle, if the opponent is strong enough."


I don't see what possible interpretation you could have for that quote other than that the avatars can and have lost, whereas Darkseid in his true form hasn't (and doesn't yet beleive he can, physically)

If classic Captain Marvel is Superman's equal and Superman beat DS when he was near the sun. I think that Captain Marvel with Shazams powers (which CM stated Makes his powers at least 100 fold) could defeat DS. Why because SM near the sun isn't close to current CM IMO.

Originally posted by D-Block
If classic Captain Marvel is Superman's equal and Superman beat DS when he was near the sun. I think that Captain Marvel with Shazams powers (which CM stated Makes his powers at least 100 fold) could defeat DS. Why because SM near the sun isn't close to current CM IMO.
Good point. I'm just waiting to see how well Billy can grasp the full power of Shazam.

Originally posted by badabing
lol I prove you wrong in another thread and you cant debate logcially in this one?
Honestly, you've never proved anybody wrong and I borrowed your own debating logic. In essance, you've just called your debating illogical and have managed to, once again, OWN YOURSELF!


Actaully no, Inmy thread you were being unreasonable and simply spamming so not worth my time to debate.

It doesnt say that EVERY defeat Darkseid has suffered was avatars. You assume that because it fits your beilefs.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
I don't see what possible interpretation you could have for that quote other than that the avatars can and have lost, whereas Darkseid in his true form hasn't (and doesn't yet beleive he can, physically) In Darkseid own words, right?
And don't say, it was an avatar, because wouldn't he have complete control of an avatar?

Yes, it's Darkseid's own words ... But then people accept the Thanos clone retcon, which was Thanos' own words. The only difference is that Darkseid states all his losses were avatars, whereas Thanos takes time to name the specific instances that were clones.


BTW, something about S/B that gets ignored is that it wasn't JUST Superman being powered up -- Darkseid had also just taken a blast intended to kill Supes right in the face. I doubt he was 100% after that. Besides, it came down to strictly a slugfest afterward. That is HIGHLY out of character. I don't see DS slugging it out with CM for a long period of time, especially if he's weakened. Darkseid's normal MO is tossing around energy.

Originally posted by David_Richards
lol I prove you wrong in another thread and you cant debate logcially in this one? Dude, if your going to quote me then at least make sure it's my quote and not your quote. How's anybody supposed to take you seriously if you can't manage to use the quotes correctly?
Originally posted by David_Richards

Actaully no, Inmy thread you were being unreasonable and simply spamming so not worth my time to debate.
No, I was voicing my opinion of the facts on your thread. If you can't debate the facts that's not my problem.

Darkseid is still a tall order for anybody.

No you were spamming and spouting insults.

Now he doesnt say ALL of his loses were avatars.

Originally posted by badabing
Good point. I'm just waiting to see how well Billy can grasp the full power of Shazam.

Yeah at the end of the Trials#1 his new form looked powerful I want to see what he can do when he cuts loose against a powerful being say Darkseid for instance .

Originally posted by badabing
Darkseid is still a tall order for anybody.

True. I bet DC won't be putting Superman against Captain Marvel anytime soon or Superman will be getting a powerboost to remain his equal.

Originally posted by D-Block
Yeah at the end of the Trials#1 his new form looked powerful I want to see what he can do when he cuts loose against a powerful being say Darkseid for instance .
I was wondering if the new look was just another person Billy could turn into. Example: Billy says Shazam once and turns into Captain Marvel then Captain Marvel says Shazam and turns into the pale guy with a white outfit.

Originally posted by David_Richards
No you were spamming and spouting insults.

Now he doesnt say ALL of his loses were avatars.
You'll need to show me scans that specifically state that all of Darkseid's LOSSES weren't avatars, otherwise it's just your opinion.

Originally posted by badabing
I was wondering if the new look was just another person Billy could turn into. Example: Billy says Shazam once and turns into Captain Marvel then Captain Marvel says Shazam and turns into the pale guy with a white outfit.

I wonder what would happen if he hit someone with That bolt of lighting that gave him the new look. Probably death.

Originally posted by D-Block
I wonder what would happen if he hit someone with That bolt of lighting that gave him the new look. Probably death.
That bolt would seriously eff somebody up. I hope that DC does well with this mini and makes Marvel a full time comic.

Originally posted by badabing
That bolt would seriously eff somebody up. I hope that DC does well with this mini and makes Marvel a full time comic.

They need to since he is the Justice League of America's #1 draft pick.

I really don't think the exact words "all of my losses are avatars" have to be spoken. "They are so much weaker than his true form that they can even be beaten in battle, if the opponent is strong enough" conveys the EXACT same message as if he'd uttered the specific phrase "all of my losses are avatars."

No i dont have to the onus is on you you made the claim you have to back it up all im doing is quesitoning it.

Originally posted by David_Richards
No you were spamming and spouting insults.
Bump the thread and quote all of these supposed "insults" and if I think they were out of line, I'll apologize.

Originally posted by David_Richards
Now he doesnt say ALL of his loses were avatars.
You have to show me scans to prove your point. If not, it's just your opinion.
Originally posted by D-Block
They need to since he is the Justice League of America's #1 draft pick.
That would be huge. DC has left him on the shelf long enough.

I dont care if you apologize or not. and the scan is located in this thread its not my fault your lazy (and childish). LOL

Originally posted by David_Richards
No you were spamming and spouting insults.

Now he doesnt say ALL of his loses were avatars.
Originally posted by David_Richards
I dont care if you apologize or not. and the scan is located in this thread its not my fault your lazy (and childish). LOL
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=419670&pagenumber=27#post7313618
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=420220&pagenumber=8#post7311183
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=418556&pagenumber=14#post7219447
Here are a few threads of spamming and flaming. Who's childish?
Originally posted by David_Richards
No you were spamming and spouting insults.


I guess this is just your opinion since you have no proof.

lol I see we are having problems reading english LOL

bnone Eh, no.
Anyway, it's going to be fun to see if Billy has the power to take out Darkseid.

Originally posted by David_Richards
lol I see we are having problems reading english LOL


I am having a problem reading two things you are typing here? Lol

Lol? Lollipop what?

Oh yeah and Darkseid wins. A god vs a wizard?

the God wins.

oh come on you can do better then that. That kind of wit gave us such damaging insults as "your a loser".

Please try to do better LMAO!!!!!!!!!!

Originally posted by Fanboy
Oh yeah and Darkseid wins. A god vs a wizard?

the God wins.


hes also a Lord of Order, the second most powerful one.

= bye bye god.

Dude, the phrase "They are so much weaker than his true form that they can even be beaten in battle, if the opponent is strong enough" is clearly stating that he hasn't lost before in his true form. Just because it's phrased in a poetic way doesn't change its meaning.

http://img52.imageshack.us/my.php?image=emperorjokerpage317mi.jpg

Here is a good thing showing Darkseid being more powerful then Shazam only one not being controlled by the Joker.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
I really don't think the exact words "all of my losses are avatars" have to be spoken. "They are so much weaker than his true form that they can even be beaten in battle, if the opponent is strong enough" conveys the EXACT same message as if he'd uttered the specific phrase "all of my losses are avatars." Ok then, you know when he fought Spectre?
Why was he remade again, because I don't think an avatar is important to the source.

Originally posted by bigbran
Ok then, you know when he fought Spectre?
Why was he remade again, because I don't think an avatar is important to the source.
Good one, I hadn't thought of that!

http://img214.imageshack.us/my.php?image=superpowersv26of6133jt.jpg


Yeah and I don't really think Captain Marvel would have the power to do that physically.

Being a Lord of Order doesn't inherently give you the edge over Darkseid IMO:


http://img502.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scream4bo.jpg
http://img502.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scream19mc.jpg

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
Dude, the phrase "They are so much weaker than his true form that they can even be beaten in battle, if the opponent is strong enough" is clearly stating that he hasn't lost before in his true form. Just because it's phrased in a poetic way doesn't change its meaning.

Of course you read it the way you want to,

1. he never says hes never lost in his true form.

Originally posted by Fanboy
http://img214.imageshack.us/my.php?image=superpowersv26of6133jt.jpg


Yeah and I don't really think Captain Marvel would have the power to do that physically. I still don't get how Batman was the only one sitting up?

Just in case you missed it.Originally posted by bigbran
Ok then, you know when he fought Spectre?
Why was he remade again, because I don't think an avatar is important to the source. Wouldn't this also mean that the real Darky fought Spectre?

Huh, I actually missed the fact that Darkseid was the last being among the Skyfathers that EJ gained control of.

Originally posted by bigbran
Ok then, you know when he fought Spectre?
Why was he remade again, because I don't think an avatar is important to the source.


That issue came out well after the avatar retcon. As has been stated, the retcon only applies to fights before 1997. The Spectre issue came out after the year 2000.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
Huh, I actually missed the fact that Darkseid was the last being among the Skyfathers that EJ gained control of.




That issue came out well after the avatar retcon. As has been stated, the retcon only applies to fights before 1997. The Spectre issue came out after the year 2000. So, it was the real one then?

Originally posted by David_Richards
Of course you read it the way you want to,

1. he never says hes never lost in his true form.


I read it that way because it's the only remotely logical way possible to read it. He states that the way you can tell his avatars are weaker than his true form is that they have lost in battle.

If I say "the difference between a bull and a cow is that a bull is male", does it matter that I didn't say "a cow is female" ...? The fact that the above phrasing eliminates any possible interpretation other than that the cow is a female makes it just as clear as if I had outright said "the cow is female."


This isn't rocket science -- it's basic reading comprehension.

Originally posted by bigbran
So, it was the real one then?


Yeah.


BTW, Super Powers is arguably out of continuity. The first series was clearly intended to be in continuity, but the third series is too hokey to be. The second series, where this scan comes from, referenced an in-continuity event (Hunger Dogs), but was stated to be out of continuity in a DC Who's Who. I no longer reference feats from there because of the controversy surrounding it.

Originally posted by badabing
bnone Eh, no.
Anyway, it's going to be fun to see if Billy has the power to take out Darkseid.

He should

Originally posted by Fanboy
http://img214.imageshack.us/my.php?image=superpowersv26of6133jt.jpg


Yeah and I don't really think Captain Marvel would have the power to do that physically.

Superman beat DS when he was close to the Sun. SM close to the sun is not even in Current CM's league. CM FTW

D-Side. Seriously, his job was to beat down sky fathers. That's just what he did. And don't give me the Superman fights. That was pure PIS and you all know it.

Originally posted by Fanboy
http://img214.imageshack.us/my.php?image=superpowersv26of6133jt.jpg


Yeah and I don't really think Captain Marvel would have the power to do that physically.
If we take Cap at his word about being 100x stronger than normal, that would be easy to do.

Cap stated he was 100X stronger than normal? When was this? Certainly not in 52 Week 17 or 18. Perhaps you're referencing Trials of SHAZAM#1? I didn't read that.

When and how did Captain Marvel become a Lord of Order? If that's really the case then Darkseid may be outclassed afterall.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
Cap stated he was 100X stronger than normal? When was this? Certainly not in 52 Week 17 or 18. Perhaps you're referencing Trials of SHAZAM#1? I didn't read that.

He stated this in 52 week 12

Originally posted by batdude123
D-Side. Seriously, his job was to beat down sky fathers. That's just what he did. And don't give me the Superman fights. That was pure PIS and you all know it.

I agree with you but it did happen.

Originally posted by Khem-Adam
When and how did Captain Marvel become a Lord of Order? If that's really the case then Darkseid may be outclassed afterall.

Shazzam Died, his power went to Captian Marvel, In the last issue his costume changed to more resemble Shazzam's. EH is beccomming the Wizard.

And Enlogated man *puke* is the new *puke* Dr Fate.

Shazam wasn't a Lord of Order. And if the only power Marvel has is Shazam's, Darkseid should still be able to lay him low no matter how experienced he gets with it.

And if Elongated Man is the new Dr.Fate then there is no God.

He is in the new issue of 52 he gets the helmet.

And yes Shazzam is a Lord of Order, im reading day of vengance again and he is named one.

He got the helmet yes but we don't know if he is going to be Dr. Fate.

Shazam isn't a Lord of Order. He's a human wizard who was given powers by gods. Power that was well below the Lords at that. What issue are you reading?

The helmet spoke to him when no one else could hear, and it seems they are turning him away from his Enlogated man persona.

And I believe it was issue 5-6

That also could be bex=cause Ralp's insane so he only thought the helmet was talking

If the helmet landed there it means its found its new wearer. and no judging from the way they are directing the character im sad to say I think he will be.

you know if you posted intelligently like you are now not so many people would be annoyed with you

Or it could be Elongated Man still insane imaging the voices himself.

This is a valid vs thread, dispite the darkseid fanboys.

And I know it could be a possiblity. but it just dosent seem that way.

Originally posted by David_Richards
This is a valid vs thread, dispite the darkseid fanboys.

And I know it could be a possiblity. but it just dosent seem that way.

In an interview for the next issue it also comments Elongated Man isn't fully recovered yet.

yeah kinda sucked how he messed up his own wifes ressurection.

Originally posted by David_Richards
yeah kinda sucked how he messed up his own wifes ressurection.

Yep, looking forward to see where he got his temporary help from

What im suprized abotu is how does the helmet still function with Nabu dead?

Originally posted by David_Richards
What im suprized abotu is how does the helmet still function with Nabu dead?

It's the Tenth Age of Magic now so he is reborn

yeah I was wondering how Hawk and Dove can still be around in the titans.

Being a Lord of Order doesn't inherently make you superior to Darkseid. I already posted the scans of Lords of Chaos -- equal to Lords of Order -- being scared of DS. SHAZAM himself treates Highfather as a peer. Darkseid is Highfather's equal.

I've read the story those scans are from and I didn't pick up any fear in the context. Darkseid says the Lords were afraid of him but I don't see anywhere where they actually were. And the Lords themselves flatout state that they aren't. Darkseid's grin doesn't suggest that he's even being serious. The story certainly doesn't show any reason for the Lords to be afraid, as the weakest version of Dr.Fate at only half power is able to handle Darkseid in it.

As for Shazam's power, Highfather treats Shazam with respect as a person but I don't know about as a peer in terms of power. Given their history together I don't see how Highfather could believe Shazam was as powerful as him. Highfather was the very person Shazam was speaking to when he explained how his godhood is unlike any power he'd ever felt before. For that matter I'm pretty sure I remember it being Highfather himself who personally gave Shazam the power as a present.

Originally posted by D-Block
If classic Captain Marvel is Superman's equal and Superman beat DS when he was near the sun. I think that Captain Marvel with Shazams powers (which CM stated Makes his powers at least 100 fold) could defeat DS. Why because SM near the sun isn't close to current CM IMO.

agreed

Originally posted by Khem-Adam
Shazam isn't a Lord of Order. He's a human wizard who was given powers by gods. Power that was well below the Lords at that. What issue are you reading?

Shazam is a lord of order

Lords of Order
The most prominent Lord of Order is Nabu, who empowered and occasionally possessed various humans through the Helm of Nabu and acted as Doctor Fate. Originally, Doctor Fate was depicted as an agent for Order (the forces of Good). When the standings of the sides were revised, Fate's role was changed so that he became a balancing force between Order and Chaos. The God Tynan from Darkworld was also a balancer. (Nabu is named after a god from Babylonian mythology and in the DC Universe was perhaps meant to be one and the same.)

Lords of Order:

Amethyst
Arion
Deedra
Gemimn (from Darkworld)
Jheryl
Kilderkin
Nabu
The wizard Shazam
Terataya
Agents of Order:

Doctor Fate (Kent/Inza Nelson and later Eric/Linda Strauss)
Dove (Don Hall and later Dawn Granger)
The Gray Man
Djinn

Shazam isn't exactly the highest ranking Lord. He only recently got that position anyway. Guys like Arion and Nabu would step on him.

Originally posted by Validus
Shazam isn't exactly the highest ranking Lord. He only recently got that position anyway. Guys like Arion and Nabu would step on him.

I know but someone said he wasn't one at all.

Originally posted by D-Block
Shazam is a lord of order

Lords of Order
The most prominent Lord of Order is Nabu, who empowered and occasionally possessed various humans through the Helm of Nabu and acted as Doctor Fate. Originally, Doctor Fate was depicted as an agent for Order (the forces of Good). When the standings of the sides were revised, Fate's role was changed so that he became a balancing force between Order and Chaos. The God Tynan from Darkworld was also a balancer. (Nabu is named after a god from Babylonian mythology and in the DC Universe was perhaps meant to be one and the same.)

Lords of Order:

Amethyst
Arion
Deedra
Gemimn (from Darkworld)
Jheryl
Kilderkin
Nabu
The wizard Shazam
Terataya
Agents of Order:

Doctor Fate (Kent/Inza Nelson and later Eric/Linda Strauss)
Dove (Don Hall and later Dawn Granger)
The Gray Man
Djinn


That's a wikipedia entry. Shazam was a human being.

Originally posted by Khem-Adam
I've read the story those scans are from and I didn't pick up any fear in the context. Darkseid says the Lords were afraid of him but I don't see anywhere where they actually were.

1. The Lords of Chaos state that The Lords of Order are lying and "fear darkness most of all" ... They also don't object to Darkseid's claim

2. The Lords of Chaos slink back from the fight they picked with The Lords of Order when Darkseid yells for them to be quiet.




And the Lords themselves flatout state that they aren't.


They did, but then The Lords of Chaos stated they were lying.




Darkseid's grin doesn't suggest that he's even being serious. The story certainly doesn't show any reason for the Lords to be afraid, as the weakest version of Dr.Fate at only half power is able to handle Darkseid in it.


Linda did stagger Darkseid with a breif blast combo, but a large part of that was her being so determined and DS underestimating her. In the same comic, she and Eric struggled against Para-Demons.

Also notice, once they've defeated the Para-Demons, Darkseid breifly emtombes them both, and leaves them "weakened" and "wounded" with a mere gesture. It was obvious he was much more powerful.


In any event, this is irrelevent given that it was retconned into being Desaad that they fought. In fact, that backs up the case further. Two half-powered Fates were struggling against Desaad in Darkseid's form -- and the next time Desaad shows up, where Darkseid points this out, Desaad is scared as hell of him.


For another comparison, Dr. Fate was virtually useless against The Kilg%re, but Darkseid nearly destroyed it with "anti-energy" blasts.




As for Shazam's power, Highfather treats Shazam with respect as a person but I don't know about as a peer in terms of power. Given their history together I don't see how Highfather could believe Shazam was as powerful as him. Highfather was the very person Shazam was speaking to when he explained how his godhood is unlike any power he'd ever felt before.

I'm pretty sure this never happened. Mr. Miracle with the Alpha Force asked SHAZAM to remove his Godhood, but that's it.



For that matter I'm pretty sure I remember it being Highfather himself who personally gave Shazam the power as a present.


From what I've heard, SHAZAM had lost his power and became a normal human up until Alpha-Force Mr. Miracle gave his power to SHAZAM. Given that Highfather easily blocked a blast from Alpha Force Mr. Miracle ...


Anywho, I think it's clear that the members of The Quintessence are roughly equal in power. In fact, as was pointed out, all of them including SHAZAM fell to Emperor Joker's control before Darkseid did.


Honestly, I think Billy was speaking in hyperbole in 52. Given how SHAZAM lost to a hostless Spectre even with his artifacts helping him, or likewise got incapacitated by Johnny Sorrow's stare (which Captain Atom remained conscious from), I don't see how that could be true. In fact, when CM was stated to have "all the wizard's power" for a brief time in Virtue and Vice, while he did KO Wonder Woman with one hit, you'd expect the hit would've killed her if he was really amped X100.

SHAZAM was stated to be a Lord of Order in Day of Veangance#6. I'm pretty sure that's where this idea stems from.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan

2. The Lords of Chaos slink back from the fight they picked with The Lords of Order when Darkseid yells for them to be quiet.



Because it snapped them back to the task at hand, which was finding out what was going on. It was potentially a matter of great importance to them and bigger than their petty squabble.



If he was much more powerful he would not have done as ineffectively against her by himself as he did. Darkseid resorts to bringing in the entire planet of Apokalips to help him. A half-powered Fate handling Darkseid like that was why it was retconned to begin with I'm sure. It made Darkseid look bad.





Not much of a comparison as Dr.Fate is ambushed before ever physically making a move against Kilg%re. And I don't know what you're talking about with Darkseid since I don't see where Darkseid even fights Kilg%re anywhere in the book much less nearly destroys him with anything.


And ss far as comparisons go, even members of Darkseid's own Elite say point blank that Dr.Fate's power is greater than Darkseid's.





I don't have the issue anymore but from memory Shazam went to New Genesis and was granted godhood. He was skipping in excitement beside Highfather saying it was nothing his own power had ever felt like. This is when Shazam starts wearing the New Genesian pants and leaves the Batsons on their own. He wanted to stay on New Genesis some more because he was in awe of being around gods.




Based on what?

yeah sure a civil guy should now how strong is ds besides ds punked fate

That's not a civilian, that's Glorious Godfrey. One of Darkseid's own agents from Apokalips. And Darkseid has never beaten Dr.Fate that I've ever seen or heard of. For that matter Dr.Fate is specifically who they called to take care of Darkseid if he tried anything.

ds could beat both dr fate and ms fate they have admitted it but they out smarted him and give some love to his soul

He could beat them, but failed when he tried?

they put some kind of spell on him to feel love

That wasn't until the end. Darkseid tried to beat her before that.

Originally posted by Khem-Adam
Because it snapped them back to the task at hand, which was finding out what was going on. It was potentially a matter of great importance to them and bigger than their petty squabble.


They didn't even know why they were summoned, and I doubt they consider Darkseid's summons greater than their eternal war. Either way, that's a VERY generous way of interpretting it.



If he was much more powerful he would not have done as ineffectively against her by himself as he did. Darkseid resorts to bringing in the entire planet of Apokalips to help him. A half-powered Fate handling Darkseid like that was why it was retconned to begin with I'm sure. It made Darkseid look bad.


1. She dodged one of his blasts, then landed two which staggered him a bit. She got by on her speed and the fact she was fighting as hard as she ever has. As Eric said when she dodged the one attack DS fired, "he should have had her." It was akin to a Spidey/Firelord or Rockey/Drago performance. Also, Darkseid owned Eric before this.

2. This "half of the planet" was nothing but random Para-Demons. That furthers the case that they were dwarfed by Darkseid in power. They were nearly killed by Para-Demons, for Pete's sake.


3. Once Darkseid has her measure, he faces her and Eric, and as I said, leaves them "weak and wounded" with a nonchalant hand wave which briefly emtombes them. They also admitted they could NEVER win a straight fight. I know he preferred using his minions (whom he dwarfs in power, although maybe not since this was Desaad), but they still basically said they had zero chance of taking him out.



Not only did they look less powerful, but they weren't even facing Darkseid. They were facing Desaad:


http://img506.imageshack.us/my.php?image=retcon9ha.jpg


... Who, as you can see, is quite scared of the real Darkseid.






Not much of a comparison as Dr.Fate is ambushed before ever physically making a move against Kilg%re.


That's not true at all. He tried to attack and got owned:

http://img362.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jlaannual09134sx5jh.jpg
http://img362.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jlaannual09152wr9av.jpg
http://img362.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jlaannual09291ca1pe.jpg






And I don't know what you're talking about with Darkseid since I don't see where Darkseid even fights Kilg%re anywhere in the book much less nearly destroys him with anything.


We just see the blasts coming at him, but Highfather's text makes it clear that it's Darkseid firing the blasts:

http://img362.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jlaannual09308jz4ob.jpg
http://img362.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jlaannual09317nv8jj.jpg
http://img362.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jlaannual09340lv2de.jpg






And ss far as comparisons go, even members of Darkseid's own Elite say point blank that Dr.Fate's power is greater than Darkseid's.


And another member of his "Elite" thought a GL's power was greater. Here's how that turned out:

http://img467.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ssosv004121rd8mw.jpg
http://img467.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ssosv004174cl2df.jpg


His minions routinely underestimate the vastness of his power. But how often do the Lords of Chaos underestimate the Lords of Order? Afterall, when they claimed they don't fear Darkseid, the Lord of Chaos yelled "You are liars! You fear darkness most of all ..." etc.








I don't have the issue anymore but from memory Shazam went to New Genesis and was granted godhood. He was skipping in excitement beside Highfather saying it was nothing his own power had ever felt like. This is when Shazam starts wearing the New Genesian pants and leaves the Batsons on their own. He wanted to stay on New Genesis some more because he was in awe of being around gods.


Don't think so. He got Mr. Miracle's God Powers which were given to him. I've heard that he had no powers himself before that. Highfather's easily blocked a blast from God-Power Mr. Miracle before. In fact, Mr. Miracle's God-Power was just an inherited portion of Highfather's own Alpha-Force.





Based on what?

The respect they treat each other with and the fact that their formation is based on watching over the POWER of the DCU. They were once called "The Quintessence of all cosmic power" IIRC.


But again, we have a direct comparison in Emperor Joker, where Darkseid resisted EJ's control longer than any member of The Quintessence did.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
This "half of the planet" was nothing but random Para-Demons. That furthers the case that they were dwarfed by Darkseid in power. They were nearly killed by Para-Demons, for Pete's sake.


This being after the lady Fate, at only half power, stood up to Darkseid by herself and made him resort to his armies. You keep saying how it wasn't really Darkseid, but you seem to be missing the point of why Darkseid's performance was retconned to begin with.



The key word being "tried". They were ambushed and Fate snatched from his body before getting off a single attack to defend Hal or himself. Though your scans curiously don't show how they effectively battled Kilg%re after being sucked in. You claim Dr.Fate was virtually useless when that's not true. Then somehow you compare that to Darkseid who never even fights Kilg%re. Show where Kilg%ore attacks Darkseid anywhere in the story then a comparison can be made.



It does not. I'm looking right at it. Whatever machine or ship is firing the blasts is firing them from the sky. Show the very next page after your scan. Darkseid is on the ground while the blasts are being fired. Darkseid himself doesn't fire anything nor does he ever face Kilg%re.



All the time. A Lord of Chaos is always going to say something negative about a Lord of Order whether it's true or not. That's a given.



So something negative a Lord of Chaos says about a Lord of Order that is clearly meant as a taunt is to be taken as impartial truth. But Darkseid's own agent who knows Darkseid's power and has no reason to lie or be biased is to be ignored when he says outright that Dr.Fate is even more powerful than Darkseid? I'll just disgree with that logic.





Don't see how that changes anything I said. It sounds like you're arguing the case for me if you're saying this god power Shazam was so impressed by was well below that of Highfather's.




Respect and affiliation has nothing to do with power. If that were the case Superman and Batman would be neck and neck. Shazam appeared regularly in Captain Marvel's book and he was just a human wizard and not much more. A respectably powerful mage but not anything like a high god.