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who wins?

is this dr fate (nabu)

If it's Nabu then he'd win.

Originally posted by Ext@nt
If it's Nabu then he'd win. agreed

Darkseid already beat Dr.Fate with ease but I don't know much of Nabu.

Nabu got owned by Mordru. We all know how Mordru stacks up to Darkseid ... Granted, he did better against The Spectre. But when Darkseid fought The Spectre, he had a host (meaning more focus for divine power) and was pretty much all out like at the end of the Nabu/Spectre fight at the very beginning (due to Apokolips' aura of evil affecting him) Also, while Nabu hung in much longer, he never clearly hurt the Spectre ... Darkseid did.


In general, I think a high-end Lord of Order is roughly equal to Darkseid in power, except for the wild card of wipeout beams.


Generally, I give Darkseid 7/10 against Hector due to experience, but only 6/10 against Nabu or Kent.

Darkseid

Darksied but Dr.Fate would put up a great fight.

Like Batman said, if you need Darkseid taken care of use this phone number and call in Dr.Fate. Lords of Magic like Dr.Fate and Mordru regularly humiliate large teams Darkseid would be hard-pressed to even take on, much less trash. Though it depends on which Fate we're talking. Some of the weaker Fates may be 50/50. Kent Nelson and "Nabu" have been said to be more powerful than Darkseid and I'd say they've shown that to be true. But Darkseid could possibly catch them with something lucky or unexpected and win. If it's Hector Hall, Darkseid may just be in over his head.

Originally posted by Khem-Adam
Like Batman said, if you need Darkseid taken care of use this phone number and call in Dr.Fate.


Uh, more like if you need help with a big threat call Fate to keep tabs on it. There's nothing in there implying Fate could take him in an actual fight. In the same story, Darkseid is ready to put a hurting on Fate until Superman steps in and says he'd have to face everyone there, Highfather included, to do it.



Lords of Magic like Dr.Fate and Mordru regularly humiliate large teams Darkseid would be hard-pressed to even take on, much less trash.



Darkseid's already owned Mordru's more powerful version while himself weakened. And I'd have to disagree there ... There was no one Mordru bashed that Darkseid can't. However, he got hurt more than Darkseid would've.

What teams has Fate beaten at all? He sorta banished that small team in Virtue and Vice, and "held back" the JSAers in the battle with Mordru. That's about it.




Though it depends on which Fate we're talking. Some of the weaker Fates may be 50/50. Kent Nelson and "Nabu" have been said to be more powerful than Darkseid and I'd say they've shown that to be true.


There is one statement that he's more powerful. There's also a statement that The Lords of Order fear Darkseid, and we have The Lords of Chaos slinking back in fear after he yelled (and no, that looked nothing like they just "decided" to not fight) There's also Darkseid being stated as having no equal in the universe in a comic that Fate appears in, as well as the direct comparison.


Now, where has a Fate ever looked more powerful than Darkseid? The only valid comparison I see is The Kilg%re. And don't bring up the retconned fight -- I disagree with your interpetation for one, but if we use that, might as well use Darkseid owning Fate with a hand-wave in Super Powers.

Come to think of it, I don't think Fate or Mordru have done anything Takion, much less Darkseid, would be incapable of. Maybe the KO of Thunderbolt, but aside from that, I think Takion could match pretty much everything they've done.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
Uh, more like if you need help with a big threat call Fate to keep tabs on it. There's nothing in there implying Fate could take him in an actual fight. In the same story, Darkseid is ready to put a hurting on Fate until Superman steps in and says he'd have to face everyone there, Highfather included, to do it.


Darkseid was ready to try at least. His odds of success though are another story. And Batman could have called anyone, but he chose Fate for a reason. The hero acknowledged as being second only to the Spectre.





I doubt that. You're probably referring to something in an alternate future that has not actually happened and/or something pre-Crisis. In present continuity Darkseid would be wise to avoid confrontation with Mordru.




You're right, there's no one Mordru defeated that Darkseid couldn't. But Darkseid would be murdered trying to take them all at the same time. Actually, I take that back. Fate's power defeated Thunderbolt too. That's a single person I don't think Darkseid could. As for getting hurt more, like Hector Hall, Mordru's body is virtually indestructible by physical force. Whatever pain he feels is apparently futile. Darkseid on the other hand has been physically maimed by things Mordru and Fate could simply restore themselves from like nothing happened.




It wasn't just the JSAers, it was an army of about 30 heroes. And he did it with a wave of his hand. Not only that, he did it so that Mordru wouldn't kill all 30 or so of them at the same time. That's crazy powerful. Compare that with Darkseid's struggles against single or small groups of heroes.

And Mordru was wrecking them using Fate's power, by the way.




Made by the bickering Lords of Chaos as a taunt. While the comparison of Darkseid's power to Fate's is made by a member of Darkseid's own circle as a purely objective assessment for it's own sake. Aside from the dubiousness(to be kind) of using something a Lord of Chaos said against it's enemies as truth, we're not talking about those Lords, we're talking about Nabu. So it doesn't matter here anyway.





It does not say Darkseid. You are inserting "Darkseid" into that sentence on your own.




Let's see.

1)Boredly dismissed a combination of JSA and JLAers with a snap of his fingers.

2)Fought the Spectre without getting incinerated to skeletal remains in 2 pages, with the Spectre suggesting Nabu is his peer but Fate's host body is the only reason Spectre had the advantage he did.

3)Grew physically large enough to wrap his arms around planet Earth, and magically put the entire planet back together.

4)Making Darkseid's own servants say he's more powerful than Darkseid.

5)Humbling entire teams with Superman-level heroes at the same time.

6)Being able to call on the power of Jesus Christ like Dr.Strange calls on the power of Agamotto.

Etc, etc.

Originally posted by Khem-Adam ...with the Spectre suggesting Nabu is his peer but Fate's host body is the only reason Spectre had the advantage he did.

This is from a pre-Crisis fight. I only add it because much like Darkseid, Fate and the Spectre weren't affected by the Crisis the same as most.

Originally posted by Khem-Adam
Darkseid was ready to try at least. His odds of success though are another story.


The fact that Superman stepped in on Fate's behalf bode pretty well for Darkseid's chances.




And Batman could have called anyone, but he chose Fate for a reason. The hero acknowledged as being second only to the Spectre.


Most likely because of Fate's experience dealing with extra-dimensional beings of all kinds and his ability to plan for them. It was his prep abilities more than anything that Batman was banking on IMO.





I doubt that. You're probably referring to something in an alternate future that has not actually happened and/or something pre-Crisis. In present continuity Darkseid would be wise to avoid confrontation with Mordru.


1. The New Gods are beyond time and space and appear in several timelines. But without getting into semantics, the Darkseid of GDS was specifically stated to be weaker than his current self in that comic

2. Mordru has done nothing Darkseid can't





You're right, there's no one Mordru defeated that Darkseid couldn't. But Darkseid would be murdered trying to take them all at the same time.



How? There's like Captain Marvel, Alan Scott, Powergirl, and a bunch of mid levellers. Darkseid's imprisoned Superman and The Infinity Man combined. Imprisoned Godwava Ares, who whupped a crapload of heroes. Imprisoned a Legion team that included Ultra Boy and a youger (but stated to be equally powerful physically) Superman with a hand wave. He created the equal of Takion with a hand wave. Hell, Aggog completely destroyed Orion and Lightray ... But got one-shotted by Darkseid.

Mordru also was seriously hurting from their attacks at times.




Actually, I take that back. Fate's power defeated Thunderbolt too. That's a single person I don't think Darkseid could.


If he essentially suckered Thunderbolt as Mordru did, sure he could. He's done similar to Godwave Ares and The Anti-Monitor. Thunderbolt owned Mordru for straight power twice.

Yuga Khan is also someone I consider on T-Bolt's power level, and he stated Darkseid is the only being powerful enough to potentially threaten his life (if not for the father/son clause)





As for getting hurt more, like Hector Hall, Mordru's body is virtually indestructible by physical force. Whatever pain he feels is apparently futile.


Er, he was looking pretty stunned at parts of that fight.





Darkseid on the other hand has been physically maimed by things Mordru and Fate could simply restore themselves from like nothing happened.


Darkseid can restore himself from anything if he uses that ability as well. He restored Orion from being ripped in half. He's restored beings from complete vaporization.




It wasn't just the JSAers, it was an army of about 30 heroes. And he did it with a wave of his hand. Not only that, he did it so that Mordru wouldn't kill all 30 or so of them at the same time. That's crazy powerful. Compare that with Darkseid's struggles against single or small groups of heroes.


When has he ever struggled against small groups of heroes? And Mordru had trouble with single heroes or small groups at times of that arc. I don't really see the big deal with them except for CM, Alan, and PG.







And Mordru was wrecking them using Fate's power, by the way.


IIRC he was also using the Starheart at points of the fight. And if you want to bring up Fate himself, he's more inconsistent than either of them.





Made by the bickering Lords of Chaos as a taunt. While the comparison of Darkseid's power to Fate's is made by a member of Darkseid's own circle as a purely objective assessment for it's own sake.


That's bunk. It was another member of his elite not making an objective assessment, but revelling in a source of newfound power. Darkseid's servants, as I've shown, have been prone to shout hyperbolic statements of being greater than Darkseid or to assume a new power source is greater any time they come upon one. It's a running theme. OTOH, the Lords of Chaos stated this in a comic where they themselves did not object when Darkseid stated they feared him, and n fact slinked back when he yelled.



Aside from the dubiousness(to be kind) of using something a Lord of Chaos said against it's enemies as truth, we're not talking about those Lords, we're talking about Nabu. So it doesn't matter here anyway.


And since Nabu has never been compared to Darkseid ...





It does not say Darkseid. You are inserting "Darkseid" into that sentence on your own.


"What your friends have unleashed upon New Genesis is a power without equal in the universe. A power that now has no balance to hold it in check. You think you've stopped a threat, but you've only traded it for invincible evil!"


And then cut to Darkseid and some cannon fodder standing over New Genesis. Do you think Highfather was talking about the Easter Bunny?







Let's see.

1)Boredly dismissed a combination of JSA and JLAers with a snap of his fingers.



Which part are you talking about? And which members? A much weaker, older Darkseid froze a Legion team with a hand-wave ... Then young Darkseid unfroze them as easily.




2)Fought the Spectre without getting incinerated to skeletal remains in 2 pages, with the Spectre suggesting Nabu is his peer but Fate's host body is the only reason Spectre had the advantage he did.


And Darkseid's been treated as Eclipso's peer back when Eclipso had his own series. Regarding Darkseid's fight with The Spectre, aside from that he actually caused Spectre visible pain (which Nabu never managed in their latest battle), it was a different host and he was most likely all-out from the outset. The aura of evil on Apokolips was specifically stated as influencing his behavior, making him want to kill. Later in the same comic, when Darkseid speaks of following The Spectre wherever he'd take the girl, at the cost to other lives, The Spectre states that he will do what's neccessary. Essentially, he implies that he would be unable to stop Darkseid from taking other lives on neutral grounds (though he could continute protecting Anomolie)


Nabu also performed worse than Hector against both Mordru and Curse.



3)Grew physically large enough to wrap his arms around planet Earth, and magically put the entire planet back together.


... Darkseid's expended more energy in one second than Apokolips spends in a year. He's Boom Tubed the whole planet. He's teleported it and Daxam. He's created what appears to be his own pocket realities.




4)Making Darkseid's own servants say he's more powerful than Darkseid.


Could you stop acting like this is something that hasn't also been said of a GL, then proven wrong? Especially given The Lords of Chaos clearly looked to fear Darkseid and claimed the Lords of Order did too.


Beyond that, "Nabu" was never specified. Godfrey just said the power of a "Lord of Order" must be more powerful. Sounds a whole lot like Mantis' beleif the GL ring could make him more powerful than Darkseid.




5)Humbling entire teams with Superman-level heroes at the same time.



Which Darkseid has also done. Although he's never had absolutely no effect on a Superman-leveller as Hector had on Black Adam.



6)Being able to call on the power of Jesus Christ like Dr.Strange calls on the power of Agamotto.


... I'm not sure what this has to do with his track record.



This is from a pre-Crisis fight. I only add it because much like Darkseid, Fate and the Spectre weren't affected by the Crisis the same as most.



Speaking of which, from Crisis itself:

http://img335.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fa8e2bd7jpgorig3ty.jpg



According to Braniac, Darkseid is the only one powerful enough to provide the aid needed against The Anti-Monitor ... In a comic where Fate appeared and was active in the struggle.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
Most likely because of Fate's experience dealing with extra-dimensional beings of all kinds and his ability to plan for them. It was his prep abilities more than anything that Batman was banking on IMO.


Except that Dr.Fate isn't known for his prep and Darkseid is not a mystic threat that gives one reason to believe Fate was called for some kind of special expertise. Fate is a person called in as a big gun for his power. No one says "We really need a tactical strategy here. Let's call Dr.Fate of all people and see if he can draw something up for us.". Especially not bleepin' Batman.




If you're saying this to claim that any alternate reality story involving a New God is in-continuity, then no. Alternate realities have no bearing on mainstream stories.




This is wishful thinking in my opinion. Darkseid clearly has been unable to do what Mordru has against DC's heroes.





All of those separate instances combined wouldn't equal the army Mordru was demolishing all at once. Some of these you listed aren't even fights.





I didn't know fighting someone face-to-face and knocking them out was considered suckering.




Right. He apparently owned Mordru so hard that he fell beaten and unconscious at Mordru's feet. I have a feeling Darkseid would "own" Mordru in much the same way.




Sorry, but Darkseid can be pounded into submission or worse by someone's fists just like anyone else. He is nothing like Hector Hall or Mordru. Darkseid can and has been maimed and nearly killed by corporeal attacks. He can't be physically ripped apart without ill-effect as Lords of magic can. He can't be brutal punished and pounded without success as Lords of Magic can.





He struggled(to say the least) with Superman and Wonder Woman just recently. Raker the Green Lantern alone was able to give him skirmish. While Darkseid was dressed in all yellow to specifically have an adavantage, no less.



The big deal is that those three together could could give Darkseid a good fight if not worse. Mordru took on those 3 plus over 20 others. It's not much of a comparison.




This wasn't an objective assessment?


http://www.killermovies.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=7351861

Godfrey is from Apokalips and is on Darkseid's side so he has no reason to speak against him. He's thinking this only to himself so it's not a lie. And he hadn't put the helmet on so he wasn't revelling in anything. It was an assessment he made based purely on seeing what Fate was capable of. This is as objective an observation as humanly possible. If anything it's biased in Darkseid's favor given who's saying it.





If you want to call the assembled power of Apokalips the Easter Bunny feel free. Apokalips has much more power and resource than just Darkseid whether you're willing to acknowledge it or not.






Darkseid cannot create realities using only his own personal power. And opening a large boom tube is a far cry from physically growing to the size of a planet yourself and restoring it.




If you'll stop acting like the two situations were alike or that the assessments were made under the same kind of circumstances. Mantis was "revelling in his new power source" as you said and was being affected mentally by the power and taken out of his right mind. Mantis said that himself.




You asked where Dr.Fate has shown to be more powerful than Darkseid. I think it's fairly obvious what Dr.Fate being able to call upon the power of Jesus Christ has to do with that...

I could've sworn I cut out about half of those responses before posting so it wouldn't be so long. Must have hit the back button or something. Wish I'd noticed that before the edit time passed.

Originally posted by Khem-Adam
Except that Dr.Fate isn't known for his prep and Darkseid is not a mystic threat that gives one reason to believe Fate was called for some kind of special expertise. Fate is a person called in as a big gun for his power. No one says "We really need a tactical strategy here. Let's call Dr.Fate of all people and see if he can draw something up for us.". Especially not bleepin' Batman.


Fate used a prep strategy on the Anti-Life Entity, however. That clearly WAS his value in this case. For that matter, Hector used one against Black Adam. He also beat Mordru and Curse each by exploiting their mystical "weaknesses."


The fact that Superman stepped in on Fate's behalf when DS threatened him is more telling, IMO. In fact, notice that this comic portrayed Darkseid's source of power as pure Anti-Life. This is a mini where Anti-Life was repeatedly stated in narration as being "truly infinite" and implied to be the most powerful threat these heroes had faced. If anything, I'd assume the guy tapping into the greatest power source would have the edge over the others.


But really, Cosmic Odyssey isn't any kind of solid proof one way or the other.




If you're saying this to claim that any alternate reality story involving a New God is in-continuity, then no. Alternate realities have no bearing on mainstream stories.


It's not an alternate reality. It's a future with a direct connection to the mainstream, and a Darkseid specified as being less powerful thain the "mainstream" version. However, yes, Rock of Ages makes it pretty clear that alternate versions make of "part" of The New Gods.

"For in the game of Gods, creation itself is the playing feild. Sometimes Darkseid wins, sometimes we win. Each time, the universe is remade, as you have witnessed. In the end, balance is served."





This is wishful thinking in my opinion. Darkseid clearly has been unable to do what Mordru has against DC's heroes.

Except that he hasn't ...





All of those separate instances combined wouldn't equal the army Mordru was demolishing all at once. Some of these you listed aren't even fights.



I still fail to see what's so impressive about demolishing an "army" of mid levellers. Darkseid scares larger armies of them on a regular basis.



I didn't know fighting someone face-to-face and knocking them out was considered suckering.


Mordru got owned and imprisoned by Thunderbolt. Later he busted out and T-Bolt was KOed. Looked to me like he caught T-Bolt unawares. T-Bolt likewise owned him (granted, his neck had been slit, but you say that type of thing is trivial to him) in the IC crossover JSA arc.






Sorry, but Darkseid can be pounded into submission or worse by someone's fists just like anyone else. He is nothing like Hector Hall or Mordru. Darkseid can and has been maimed and nearly killed by corporeal attacks. He can't be physically ripped apart without ill-effect as Lords of magic can. He can't be brutal punished and pounded without success as Lords of Magic can.


Dude, Mordru was clearly stunned by physical force in both Princes of Darkness and the JSA IC crossover. Hector got owned by Black Adam and KOed by an energy blast rection from Johnny Sorrow. They can be KOed. Two Macrolatts inhabiting Superman and Nuklon's bodies KOed Kent with one double-punch.


They can transmutate injuries away, but so can Darkseid.








He struggled(to say the least) with Superman and Wonder Woman just recently.


He was owning Superman before WW's interference. There was no "fight" as such between him and WW. She just teleported in by surprise to deflect his beams. Darkseid's owned Superman and one more powerful than him at the same time.

In The Weird's mini, Superman did quite a bit better against The Weird than Kent did. He was also considered more powerful than Kent by the Macrolatts, who inhabited his body instead of Fate's.





Raker the Green Lantern alone was able to give him skirmish. While Darkseid was dressed in all yellow to specifically have an adavantage, no less.


And in the same comic, Darkseid crushed his Lantern ring with one hand as it was charging, attempting to attack. He hand no trouble crumbling it in his fingers. Without yellow.


Hector's been owned by Black Adam.







The big deal is that those three together could could give Darkseid a good fight if not worse. Mordru took on those 3 plus over 20 others. It's not much of a comparison.


Darkseid easily imprisoned Superman and The Infinity Man. While those are just two, I-M is more powerful than Supes. A much weaker Darkseid also froze the Legion which included 2 top tiers and a bunch of mid levellers almost as numerous as Mordru's team with a hand wave -- while mind controlling Orion, Barda, Firestorm, Lobo, a GL, and a Martian simultaneously. The more powerful "young" Darkseid, closer to current in power, unfroze them all with a hand wave and withstood a blast that went on to kill his older self.





This wasn't an objective assessment?

No.




Godfrey is from Apokalips and is on Darkseid's side so he has no reason to speak against him. He's thinking this only to himself so it's not a lie. And he hadn't put the helmet on so he wasn't revelling in anything. It was an assessment he made based purely on seeing what Fate was capable of. This is as objective an observation as humanly possible. If anything it's biased in Darkseid's favor given who's saying it.




You do realize you're failing to address the context of the scene which I've repeatedly pointed out? He was revelling over a newfound power, and let out the typical "OMG I'm now greater than Darkseid!" that Mantis likewise said in a mirror scenario when he found a GL ring.







If you want to call the assembled power of Apokalips the Easter Bunny feel free. Apokalips has much more power and resource than just Darkseid whether you're willing to acknowledge it or not.


We've been over this ...


1. Darkseid's energy powers > all the energy on Apokolips

2. There is ZERO evidence it came from the "assembled power of Apokolips." The only part of the comic that gives us a clear idea of how it was done is when he's about to take out the last sanctuary of The Kilg%re -- and we clearly see he's about to do it with a hand-blast.






Darkseid cannot create realities using only his own personal power.



http://img169.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ultfx7vk6.jpg
http://img169.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ult1yb9mm4.jpg
http://img169.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ult2mf9xn8.jpg
http://img169.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ult3hx3nd5.jpg
http://img169.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ult4fz7pl0.jpg
http://img169.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ult5cw9uk3.jpg


It sure looks like the human form avatar he created/inhabited, Dark Side, did exactly that.







And opening a large boom tube is a far cry from physically growing to the size of a planet yourself and restoring it.


... What? He created a Boom Tube capable of returning Apokolips from the size of a planet in our dimension to the size of a galaxy in its own dimension, its proper size. That's a much more impressive size-changing feat.




If you'll stop acting like the two situations were alike or that the assessments were made under the same kind of circumstances. Mantis was "revelling in his new power source" as you said and was being affected mentally by the power and taken out of his right mind. Mantis said that himself.


WTF? He clearly states that in order to get out of Darkseid punishing him. When he sees that Darkseid is angry, he completely ignores that, and shows that he's confident he could destroy his master. This is EXTREMELY straightforward. He says he had a moment of madness when he made the claim to get DS off his back, but when he sees it won't work, he attacks and claims the GL ring will kill Darkseid, and is dumbfounded when he sees it having no effect. It's the exact same thing, and I'm, fairly sure Godfrey would've reacted the same way if he knew Darkseid was watching him.




Kalibak once beleived he had absorbed Darkseid's full power when he was cut off at a small fraction of it. He's also stated it would take a power greater than Darkseid's to defeat him. Virmun Vundabar thought he'd caught Darkseid in a vulnerable moment in the past, and paid for it with his life. This is a running theme.


There is simply no way you can objectively claim Godfrey revelling in a newfound power source is better than The Lords of Chaos not only not objecting when DS says they fear him, but claiming the Lords of Order do too. At best, the statements cancel each other out.







You asked where Dr.Fate has shown to be more powerful than Darkseid. I think it's fairly obvious what Dr.Fate being able to call upon the power of Jesus Christ has to do with that...


Not necessarily. The New Gods all tap into The Source to some degree, and several comics have portrayed The Source as another name/manifestation of The Presence. It's the degree to which the power can be tapped that counts.

One other thing about Darkseid/Supes ... Notice Superman doing well against Darkseid almost exclusively involves DS ignoring his powers and physically slugging it out. When Mordru stopped using his magics and tried to slug with Powergirl, he got owned.

Since so much of this is distortion I'll just hit a few hot points.



Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
It's not an alternate reality. It's a future with a direct connection to the mainstream, and a Darkseid specified as being less powerful thain the "mainstream" version. However, yes, Rock of Ages makes it pretty clear that alternate versions make of "part" of The New Gods.

It's not only an alternate future but a pre-Crisis alternate future on top of that. The Mordru of now didn't even exist pre-Crisis, which shows how invalid this is. The current Mordru was only introduced post-Crisis. Things changed. In the present, post-Crisis DCU Mordru's future shows he will be old and mad by the time of the Legion and not be the monster he is now. Old pre-Crisis, alternate reality stories don't mean anything to the here and now mainstream. In the mainstream Mordru could very possibly murder Darkseid.




You're supposing this completely out of nowhere. They fought face-to-face and T-bolt is beaten. Mordru emerges yelling how they don't yet understand his power as a direct referrence to his being able to defeat Thunderbolt. There is no point where T-bolt is shown unawares nor is this the first time Dr.Fate's power has outdone Thunderbolt.




And once again you totally ignore the circumstances to distort what really happened. Mordru was severely weakened when Thunderbolt "owned" him and his powers were out of whack. And funny how you don't say anything about the fact that that really was a sucker shot unlike when Mordru took him down. A sneak attack from behind while Mordru didn't know T-bolt was there. And Mordru still didn't go down despite this sneak attack. He had to be teleported away.




It's one thing to stun Mordru's corporeal body, it's another to do him any effective damage. Because of the nature of his being his body can be physically beaten bloody without any meaningful effect to him. Hector had mental blocks that barred him from accessing the true power until right before Princes of Darkness which was why he couldn't do the same as Mordru and could be KOed by normal attacks. He didn't learn how to make his body immune until around the time of his second fight with Mordru.

You can claim "owned" all you want, but for all this "owning" the Lords took all the punishment in stride and whomped all their opponents in return. Generally speaking, the person who loses is considered the owned one. Not the person who wins.





Darkseid has been nearly eviscerated and fatally ripped up by Doomsday, been on the verge of being killed in his hand-to-hand fight with Orion, been beaten blind and into submission by Superman's fists. He's not like the Lords of Magic no matter how you slice it. Darkseid would and has been severely injured by things that would be inconsequential to Dr.Fate or Mordru.




Everyone with super powers taps into the Source, not just the New Gods. Saying the New Gods tap the Source isn't much of a counter to Dr.Fate being able to directly call upon the power of Jesus Christ.

Either of you have JSA 42? It details Mordru's current past, dating back to the dawn of time, alongside the other Lords of Order and Chaos.

Mordru as he is now, is actually one of those Lords, having taken over the body of Arion the mage of Atlantis, who was considered the most powerful mage in the DCU, and former ruler of Atlantis.

Yeah, that issue gives a good breakdown about what exactly a Lord of magic is. Speaking of which, some things that should be pointed out. Each "Fate" is different. The Lord of Order who empowers Dr.Fate is a non-corporeal energy being and actually has no name. Ironically this led to him being called "the Nameless One". Nabu is the not the name of this Lord, but of the human mage who's body the Lord first used. Though this lord is often called Nabu for convenience. Nabu is not Dr.Fate. Nabu and Dr.Fate are two separate people. Dr.Fate is the person who wears Nabu's artifacts.


Nabu was a mage in ancient Egypt and Mesopotamia that "the Nameless One" used as a physical host. But after thousands of years the body began to age and wear out. When Nabu died, the Nameless One used his corpse for one last act which was to form the helm of Nabu so that his essence would have a physical vessel to be housed in. If someone worthy put it on they would become Dr.Fate. The first Dr.Fate was Kent Nelson. Because Dr.Fate isn't Nabu, he would lose his powers if the helmet was removed. And being only human his body also had certain limitations to what it could and couldn't do. Hector Hall was specially created by destiny/fate to be the most powerful Dr.Fate of all time. His body can accept and channel all magic. He's much more powerful than either Kent Nelson or Nabu and doesn't have Kent Nelson's weaknesses. He also apparently keeps all his power with or without the helmet though he needs the helmet to recieve instructions on how to use it properly.

Dude, this is getting weak.


Originally posted by Khem-Adam

It's not only an alternate future but a pre-Crisis alternate future on top of that. The Mordru of now didn't even exist pre-Crisis, which shows how invalid this is. The current Mordru was only introduced post-Crisis. Things changed. In the present, post-Crisis DCU Mordru's future shows he will be old and mad by the time of the Legion and not be the monster he is now. Old pre-Crisis, alternate reality stories don't mean anything to the here and now mainstream. In the mainstream Mordru could very possibly murder Darkseid.


1. It being erased in ZH means nothing to the fact that at the time it came out, it was in the same universe as mainstream DC, merely in the future

2. AGAIN, this is irrelevent as that Darkseid was stated as being less powerful than classic Darkseid. Those are the feats of a WEAKENED version of "our" Darkseid.


GDS Darkseid canonically < mainstream Darkseid. You can't pretend the feats are irrelevent. And AGAIN, Mordru owning a bunch of mid levellers is not beyond Darkseid at all. Quality, not quantity. The only people of notable power he beat as a team were Captain Marvel, Alan Scott, and Powergirl. PG is a second tier. The other two are top tiers, although Alan's a lower one based on his fights with Kyle.





You're supposing this completely out of nowhere. They fought face-to-face and T-bolt is beaten. Mordru emerges yelling how they don't yet understand his power as a direct referrence to his being able to defeat Thunderbolt. There is no point where T-bolt is shown unawares nor is this the first time Dr.Fate's power has outdone Thunderbolt.

Says the guy who claims the Kilg%re caught Fate "unawares."


As I recall, he beat the crap out of Mordru, sucked him into the pen, and later Mordru emerges with a blast, KOing Thunderbolt.


I don't have that comic on hand (I'll again check it out soon), but I do have JSA#80 on hand. An issue where Thunderbolt defeats Mordru with a hand wave.







And once again you totally ignore the circumstances to distort what really happened. Mordru was severely weakened when Thunderbolt "owned" him and his powers were out of whack. And funny how you don't say anything about the fact that that really was a sucker shot unlike when Mordru took him down. A sneak attack from behind while Mordru didn't know T-bolt was there. And Mordru still didn't go down despite this sneak attack. He had to be teleported away.



This is a load of BS.

1. Where is Mordru stated as weakened? I don't see this stated ANYWHERE in the comics. He was COMPLETELY owning Nabu before T-Bolt stepped in.

2. The only sneak attack is by Jakeem, when he slits Mordru's throat. Being you claim physical harm is irrelevent to Mordru ...


3. Mordru SAW Thunderbolt and was standing there, THREATENING him when T-Bolt banished him. Mordru is looking right at T-Bolt for four panels straight before he is banished by the hand wave. It is a blatant lie to say he didn't know T-Bolt was about to attack him.



I may post scans of this and the previous encounter when I get time.







It's one thing to stun Mordru's corporeal body, it's another to do him any effective damage. Because of the nature of his being his body can be physically beaten bloody without any meaningful effect to him. Hector had mental blocks that barred him from accessing the true power until right before Princes of Darkness which was why he couldn't do the same as Mordru and could be KOed by normal attacks. He didn't learn how to make his body immune until around the time of his second fight with Mordru.


Was this ever stated, or is it merely your speculation to explain away Fate's inconsistency? And KENT had mental blocks? So you're saying Hector > Kent?






You can claim "owned" all you want, but for all this "owning" the Lords took all the punishment in stride and whomped all their opponents in return. Generally speaking, the person who loses is considered the owned one. Not the person who wins.



LOL. Dr. Fate was having no effect on Black Adam and stated he was physically unbeatable. He went back in time to cut him off from his powers.


In the straight fight, Fate was destroyed by Adam.









Darkseid has been nearly eviscerated and fatally ripped up by Doomsday, been on the verge of being killed in his hand-to-hand fight with Orion, been beaten blind and into submission by Superman's fists. He's not like the Lords of Magic no matter how you slice it. Darkseid would and has been severely injured by things that would be inconsequential to Dr.Fate or Mordru.


1. Doomsday was a sneak attack and he presumably didn't have time to heal his injuries

2. He was NOT "nearly killed" or even harmed in his fight with Orion. There is no evidence for this.

3. The Superman reference is correct. But again, Kent has been KOed before.







Everyone with super powers taps into the Source, not just the New Gods. Saying the New Gods tap the Source isn't much of a counter to Dr.Fate being able to directly call upon the power of Jesus Christ.


Darkseid's powers are an energy from The Source. DIRECTLY from The Source. Unless you want to claim Fate can summon ALL the power of Christ ...

Alright, found the issue, and here are the scans.


Mordru vs. Thunderbolt in JSA#50:


http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/6682/thundhh7mh8.th.jpg

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/1459/thund1la8jw9.th.jpg


http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/9614/thund2ap8hv6.th.jpg


... Mordru was COMPLETELY ineffectual against Thunderbolt straight up. He had no effect on T-Bolt. He was utterly owned.


Now here's what you're referring to, several pages later:

http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/7163/thund3cz9cr5.th.jpg

http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/6236/thund4ak5uv3.th.jpg



While it's true that it wasn't exactly a sucker shot per se, the last command T-Bolt got was to hug him. Mordru was able to do whatever he wanted to get free, but T-Bolt could do nothing but continue his bearhug. Beyond that, he wasn't able to mount any other offense or defense due to the fact that he hadn't gotten the authority from Jakeem.


As Thunderbolt says, he can do nothing unless Jakeem gives him the order:

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/2036/jsa04615ub3.th.jpg

Even so, it took Mordru SEVERAL pages to break free and KO a Thunderbolt who lacked the ability to do anything but stand still and hold onto him.


And this is supposed to make Mordru look more powerful?

BTW, the Pre-Zero Hour Mordru that Darkseid (a version stated to be less powerful than current) beat was MORE powerful than Post-Zero Hour Mordru. This version beat The JLA, JSA, Legion ... He bashed a team that INCLUDED Dr. Fate, and fought The Legion when it had several top tiers -- not just two or three.

Now, from JSA#80 ...

Mordru owns Nabu (minus the pages where they were just travelling through alternate realities:

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/4048/mordrunabuwp9.th.jpg


http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/4750/mordrunabu2mq5.th.jpg

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/811/mordrunabu3mo6.th.jpg

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/6576/mordrunabu4kj9.th.jpg


Jakeem steps in and slits Mordru's throat:

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/4473/thunderboltmordruwd9.th.jpg

Mordru vows revenge for four panels, until Jakeem gets tired of it. So he tells Thunderbolt to pwn Mordru for him. And he does:

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/781/thunderboltmordru2eb0.th.jpg

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan

1. It being erased in ZH means nothing to the fact that at the time it came out, it was in the same universe as mainstream DC, merely in the future

2. AGAIN, this is irrelevent as that Darkseid was stated as being less powerful than classic Darkseid. Those are the feats of a WEAKENED version of "our" Darkseid.

If you're going to ignore that the characters involved have been distinctly altered and futures changed, then there's no point discussing it with you.





You act as though Nabu wasn't likewise weakened. It's impressive that Nabu was even able manifest at all without a physical body, much less fight like that. And Mordru realizes his power is weakened to the point where even casting simple spells "feel like mountains". A weakness which causes him to take poundings from the JSA. Though you'd undoubtibly call it an "owning", none of this physical punishment can do anything but damage Mordru's corporeal form which is fairly insignificant, and he again defeats the entire JSA. An ability Lords of Magic have that you seem determined not to admit.






So now you're claiming that harmful energy Mordru was hit with that exploded out of his mouth and eyes from the inside out was just a pen stab? Yeah...





A blatant lie is saying the only sneak attack was Jakeem stabbing Mordru with a pen. the stabbing was only to set up the sneak attack from Thunderbolt. A blatant distortion is acting as though that sneak attack didn't happen and that Thunderbolt was facing Mordru evenly. When Mordru is looking at Thunderbolt, Mordru is holding his throat and his face is SMOKING from Thunderbolt's attack. His face is still smoking even as he's teleported away.


Mordru was already greatly weakened, was fighting Nabu, and he took a sneak attack from Thunderbolt right inside his skull and still didn't go down. When Darkseid takes a couple of claws from behind by Doomsday he not only goes down but needs a mother box just to be saved from dying.



It was stated and shown. Hector was beaten and battered so badly that even his helmet was broken, then impaled through the chest and hurled from the sky crashing into to the ground. He then raised up and completely healed his body and uniform of all damage.





Are you not reading? Hector is much greater than Kent.






This is terrible. He had all the time in the world, he was just too busy dying. Once he gets torn into by Doomsday he's shown for a long time unable to do anything but lie there and bleed.





He was beaten to the point where he felt Orion would kill him if it continued, so he threw the fight to avoid that fate by cheating with his Omega beams. The writer of the story said this himself.


"The two turned out to be pretty evenly matched in the single combat but (again, IMHO), Darkseid's belief was that if the battle were to continue to a climax, he himself would mostly likely die at its conclusion."

http://www.comicboards.com/newgods/view.php?rpl=060629061735




I never said Kent had the same abilities as Hector. I specifically gave different answers for who'd win for different Fates. The point being, Darkseid is not like the Lords of Magic as you claim. He'd get murdered by things they shrug off as nothing.




Except that that's for when Thunderbolt is outside of the pen. Mordru beat him inside the pen in his own dimension where the genies do what they want. You continue to pretend that punching Mordru means you're seriously hurting him despite him taking them all the time and beating those who hit him. Thunderbolt included.


Anyway, since you just seem to be twisting things to fit your arguements I'll finish off here. And show Mordru's weakness which you denied.

darkside

As for Darkseid's inability to team bash ...


The older, weaker Darkseid freezes the Legion with a hand wave:

http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/9579/legion29066pu.th.jpg



This team included Ultra Boy and a version of Superman (teen Clark Kent, but given powers comparable to current Supes -- as Superboy stated when this version of Supes hit him, his punches are "Big Blue class", along with a bunch of mid levellers. This is while he's mind-controlling Orion, Lobo, Barda, a White Martian, Firestorm, and a Green Lantern on the side.


A younger Darkseid (right after he gained The Omega Force, but before he absorbed Pantheons) unfreezes them with a hand wave:


http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/241/legion29114gz.th.jpg


The younger Darkseid easily shrugs off a blast of Astro-Force, before another blast outright destroys the older version. Afterwards, he takes mental control of the heroes:


http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/7066/legion29198rc.th.jpg

http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/2412/legion29203ji.th.jpg

http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/9409/legion29211pk.th.jpg

he wins

do you now venom?

helo by the way

Originally posted by Khem-Adam
Anyway, since you just seem to be twisting things to fit your arguements I'll finish off here. And show Mordru's weakness which you denied.


That being here...


T-bolt really "pwned" Mordru. As long as you're willing to completely ignore all the circumstances, that is.

Originally posted by Khem-Adam
If you're going to ignore that the characters involved have been distinctly altered and futures changed, then there's no point discussing it with you.


That's not what I'm ignoring. That's a valid argument if we don't know how the characters here compare to their mainsteam selves. In this case, we KNOW that Darkseid is less powerful than the mainsteam version. If you ignore that, it's not worth debating it with you.





You act as though Nabu wasn't likewise weakened. It's impressive that Nabu was even able manifest at all without a physical body, much less fight like that.


And yet Nabu in this form did much better against The Spectre than Hector did. In fact, he stated that in this form, he was still the most powerful Lord of Order.





And Mordru realizes his power is weakened to the point where even casting simple spells "feel like mountains".


Was this stated in a previous issue? Definitely not in this one.





A weakness which causes him to take poundings from the JSA. Though you'd undoubtibly call it an "owning", none of this physical punishment can do anything but damage Mordru's corporeal form which is fairly insignificant, and he again defeats the entire JSA. An ability Lords of Magic have that you seem determined not to admit.






Yes, getting KOed is insignificant. When a Lord is completely dominated in a fight, takes a few panels to stand, etc., it's all good because they could really heal the damage if they wanted! They just choose not to do it in a timely manner.






S now you're claiming that harmful energy Mordru was hit with that exploded out of his mouth and eyes from the inside out was just a pen stab? Yeah...


... He stabbed Mordru with the pen, and simultaneously the energy from the pen released Mordru. What exactly are you arguing?








A blatant lie is saying the only sneak attack was Jakeem stabbing Mordru with a pen. the stabbing was only to set up the sneak attack from Thunderbolt. A blatant distortion is acting as though that sneak attack didn't happen and that Thunderbolt was facing Mordru evenly. When Mordru is looking at Thunderbolt, Mordru is holding his throat and his face is SMOKING from Thunderbolt's attack. His face is still smoking even as he's teleported away.



... How biased can you be? He was looking right at Thunderbolt vowing revenge for FOUR PANELS STRAIGHT, and you're claiming it was a sneak attack???


And I mentioned the stab. The point is, you claim physical damage, like throat slits for instance, are insigniicant to Mordru and Fate, THEN you use one as an excuse for a loss. Hmm ...





Mordru was already greatly weakened, was fighting Nabu, and he took a sneak attack from Thunderbolt right inside his skull and still didn't go down.


Do you see Jakeem telling Thunderbolt to attack? Me neither. I see him stabbing Mordru with the pen and simultaneously releasing T-Bolt. Sure, he had some smoke coming from his mouth after T-Bolt surface out of it, but it's not like he was actually blasted.


And again, you keep saying physical damage is irrelevent. There were 4 panels between this and Jakeem telling Thunderbolt to attack Mordru. Panels of Mordru on the ground, vowing revenge, and favoring his "insignificant" injury.





When Darkseid takes a couple of claws from behind by Doomsday he not only goes down but needs a mother box just to be saved from dying.


Actually, we don't know how many hits since the scene changed after 4 were landed, but he was beaten incoherent, so it's not like he had the neccessary will to heal himself.


Not to mention, the very next issue Superman states he never beleived it was possible to hurt Darkseid.



It was stated and shown. Hector was beaten and battered so badly that even his helmet was broken, then impaled through the chest and hurled from the sky crashing into to the ground. He then raised up and completely healed his body and uniform of all damage.


And Darkseid's healed beings from vaporization. Just because he can do it doesn't mean he always will. Like I said, he has been KOed before.






Are you not reading? Hector is much greater than Kent.


Indeed? Then explain his abyssmal performance against The Spectre. Or Johnny Sorrow. Or Neron. Or Black Adam.






This is terrible. He had all the time in the world, he was just too busy dying. Once he gets torn into by Doomsday he's shown for a long time unable to do anything but lie there and bleed.


He had all the time in the world while he was too incoherent to actually heal himself, yes. If you want me to post scans of him casually healing an Orion who's been torn in half ...







He was beaten to the point where he felt Orion would kill him if it continued, so he threw the fight to avoid that fate by cheating with his Omega beams. The writer of the story said this himself.


Orion gained the advantage using skill, therefore Darkseid threw it at that point, as it was convincing. At the point it actually happened, he was not shown damaged. He was planning on throwing it before the fight ever started. But the writer did state he felt he'd eventually die. However, this was a fight where all powers were specifically banned from being used, and he was forced to fight HTH until there was a victor. Meaning using powers to heal himself was against the rules.


Now then, Mordru got physically owned by Powergirl when he tried the same.






I never said Kent had the same abilities as Hector. I specifically gave different answers for who'd win for different Fates. The point being, Darkseid is not like the Lords of Magic as you claim. He'd get murdered by things they shrug off as nothing.


... Like what?







Except that that's for when Thunderbolt is outside of the pen. Mordru beat him inside the pen in his own dimension where the genies do what they want.


When was this stated to specifically apply to Thunderbolt? I'd like an actual reference, not just you stating it's so or issues where this applies to other Imps (as we've seen, Triumph's Imp for instance was given much more priveleges than Jakeem's)


At best, you have an off-panel win. Given that on-panel he was not only owned but had no effect, the way he won is dubious at best.


Anyway, since you just seem to be twisting things to fit your arguements I'll finish off here. And show Mordru's weakness which you denied.


I don't see it anywhere in the comic. JSA#80 is the only part of the arc I read, so whatever. Regardless, Mordru owned a Nabu who was shown as more powerful than Hector in DOV.

Any way you look at it, Thunderbolt > Hector per this issue.

Originally posted by Khem-Adam
That being here...


T-bolt really "pwned" Mordru. As long as you're willing to completely ignore all the circumstances, that is.


Thanks for the scan. Doesn't change the fact that Mordru at this level still owned Nabu (in a form that completely showed Hector up in DOV) And the fact that Thunderbolt needed no more effort than a hand wave almost makes this moot.


But again, even in the original battle, Mordru was utterly owned in the ON-PANEL battle. Two of his attacks had absolutely no effect, his construct was nonchalantly destroyed by Thunderbolt, and he was both knocked around and restrained like a little kid. I take an on-panel battle to hold more credibility than something off-panel. But I'll await a reference to Jakeem's Imp being able to ignore his last orders and do whatever he wants in the pen.

Didn't know the board uploaded pics so small. Just in case it's unreadable here's one of the times Mordru says he's very weak. ( click ) Here's the most recent example of Thunderbolt shown as able to act independently inside the pen. He's part of a strike team and he's monologuing the events firsthand in the captions. ( click ) And just so the actual events don't get lost in all the twisted claims, here's the some of the instances in question. Unlike the Darkseid examples, these are all present continuity. No alternate futures and whatnot.





I'll pass on dealing with these distortion tactics anymore, but I would like to know which issue Hector Hall supposedly fought the Spectre. I doubt this ever happened either.

Jimmy is owning !!!

Originally posted by Khem-Adam
Didn't know the board uploaded pics so small. Just in case it's unreadable here's one of the times Mordru says he's very weak.


And as I showed, he was owning Nabu, who (in the same state) did better than Hector did against The Spectre during the same big crossover (DOV)


-This is the army of "mid-levelers" Mordru was destroying. Sentinel, Thunderbolt, Powergirl, and Captain Marvel being among them. Despite the power and numbers Dr.Fate has to stop them from getting themselves all killed fighting Mordru.



Yes, like I said, a bunch of mid levellers, then those three. Whereas the team that a MUCH WEAKER Darkseid beat with a hand-wave included Ultra Boy and a version of Superman, then a bunch of comparable mid-levellers. AND he did it while mind-controlling several top tiers. The only difference is Mordru's team also had Powergirl. But then he wasn't mind-controlling several people simulateneously, and wasn't so pathetically weak compared to his normal self as that old DS was.





-Dr.Fate holding them all back with a wave of his hand while engaging Mordru. Whom Dr.Fate singlehandedly defeats. ( click )


And of course young Darkseid just as easily unfroze that team in Legion, before proving significantly more powerful than their captor ...




-Mordru taking massive amounts of physical punishment. He's beaten down bloody for the umpteenth time. "Owned" would certainly be the claim.


Ummm ... Blasting them WHILE still bleeding, but not out yet equates to the damage being irrelevent? That's stupid. Going by that logic, damage is irrelevent to anyone in comics who keepts fighting through it. Which is like everyone in comics.







-One of the numerous times Darkseid's body proves unable to handle things nearly as well. He's being claimed to have the same abilities as Fate and Mordru because he can heal other people with his Omega effect. His multiple injuries to himself on multiple occasions prove this isn't true.

-Darkseid supposedly "not having enough time" to do like Mordru and Fate.


*Sigh* As I said, he had no time to do it AS HE WAS BEING ATTACKED. Afterward, he barely had the power to lift his head. He lacked the will to form an energy blast, so of COURSE he lacked the will to heal himself.

Now then, if he WANTED to heal himself in the middle of a real battle:


http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/3473/newgods07085rc.th.jpg


http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/3264/newgods07096ky.th.jpg


http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/8183/newgods07109pe.th.jpg


http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/534/newgods07116un.th.jpg



Here's the most recent example of Thunderbolt shown as able to act independently inside the pen. He's part of a strike team and he's monologuing the events firsthand in the captions. ( click )


Link doesn't work. But again, even if that is the case (I'll wait until I see proof), we have no idea how he did it. Thunderbolt may well have imprisoned him, sat back and drank a beer, then Mordru found a way to manipulate his power from the inside or some such. We don't know.

What we DO know -- what was on-panel -- was Mordru's attacks having ZERO effect on Thunderbolt and on his force-feild, as well as T-Bolt effortlessly ripping through his construct and restraining him. On-panel, T-Bolt was handling him with very little effort. On-panel, Thunderbolt handled Mordru much more easily than Hector did.





And just so the actual events don't get lost in all the twisted claims, here's the some of the instances in question. Unlike the Darkseid examples, these are all present continuity. No alternate futures and whatnot.


Dude, stop ignoring the fact that the Pre-Zero Hour Mordru owned Fate unlike current Mordru, and GDS Darkseid was specifically stated as weaker than modern day DS in the story itself. It's not like it's unknown how the versions of that story rank compared to "current" selves. It was a weakened Darkseid and a version of Mordru that's most likely more powerful, regardless of it being a future story.





I'll pass on dealing with these distortion tactics anymore,


You mean your own?





but I would like to know which issue Hector Hall supposedly fought the Spectre. I doubt this ever happened either.


Sure thing, champ:


http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/9666/page02dy4.th.jpg

(And this is the DOV retelling with additional text)

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/5125/untitledscanned14ba8.th.jpg

Actually, I completely forgot that the team Darkseid imprisoned ALSO included Star Boy, who commands the power of a black hole. He's above Powergirl IMO. Baring that in mind, I think Darkseid's team is at LEAST as impressive as Mordru's.

The Weird KOes the Kent Nelson Dr. Fate:

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/2307/theweird0132zz0.th.jpg

http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/782/theweird0133yk4.th.jpg

Keep in mind that Byrne-era Superman stalemated The Weird.


Likewise, two Macrolatts (who claimed Superman and Nuklon were the most powerful beings there, thus inhabited them instead of the others, Fate included) KOed Dr. Fate:

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/1669/weiyj1.th.jpg

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/3255/wei1sp0.th.jpg

Link.



As for Hector Hall vs. Spectre, you're using an example from when Hector had Nabu trapped and couldn't access his Fate power. I figured there was another major detail being left out. Hector Hall being the most powerful Fate has been shown and stated a number of times. It's not just speculation. Here's just one.

1. In that link, it looks like another Imp who's threatening to attack. All Thunderbolt does it talk him down. As we saw in JSA#80, even when he's out of the pen he still has the ability to verbally go against his master's commands, or even slightly resist them (not enough to matter, but still). I don't see any evidence in this that he could ignore his last command from Jakeem to keep "hugging" Mordru and start mounting an all-out war. I guess he could try and talk him down, though.

2. If Hector couldn't access his Fate power, how'd he turn into Dr. Fate? The only thing II've heard of with this is Fate not having Nabu's knowledge constantly talking to him. Even so, it looks like Nabu's trying to take over there. Give me the # where it's stated he was actually less powerful during this period.


3. Anywho, all that second scan says is that he's the most powerful sorceror. No direct statement of him vs. Nabu. In the DOV special, Nabu says he's the most powerful Lord of Order, and brings up how the reason Spectre owned Hector so easily is because he's merely Dr. Fate, not Nabu. I'm not sure an actual Lord of Order would be considered a "sorceror" anyway. More like a being that a sorceror invokes, IMO.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan
1. In that link, it looks like another Imp who's threatening to attack. All Thunderbolt does it talk him down. As we saw in JSA#80, even when he's out of the pen he still has the ability to verbally go against his master's commands, or even slightly resist them (not enough to matter, but still). I don't see any evidence in this that he could ignore his last command from Jakeem to keep "hugging" Mordru and start mounting an all-out war. I guess he could try and talk him down, though.

Or he could do what he's plainly doing in that story. Which is thinking and acting independently.




I don't know if he loses power or not but he can't access or utilize it so it doesn't matter. He could only perform relatively simple magics at that time.






You're getting confused and seem to be missing the context of what all was going on in DoV. You need to read my post at the top of the second page about the different Fates. Dr.Fate, Nabu, and Mordru are all called sorcerors. Kent Nelson(Dr.Fate) has fought the Spectre a number of times and Nabu has fought him at least twice.

Originally posted by Khem-Adam
Or he could do what he's plainly doing in that story. Which is thinking and acting independently.


I see him talking independently in that story -- just as he always does, even when he's forced to act in a way that's not independent:

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/9265/thunderbolt1vz1.th.jpg

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/2923/thunderbolt2gy3.th.jpg

But I do not see any evidence he's able to fight as he chooses in there, much less to the full degree he'd be able to if given the order. Mind you, through enough willpower he's been able to fight an order he does not like and even turn on his "host":



But it take a hell of a lot of effort and he is likely nowhere near as effective as he would be if he was given permission to fight as he wants. Thunderbolt does nothing in your scan that he hasn't do in "our" world, nor does it in any way imple he gets to start ignoring his user's orders with no trouble in there.







I don't know if he loses power or not but he can't access or utilize it so it doesn't matter. He could only perform relatively simple magics at that time.


Again, I ask for a reference. AFAIK the only thing he lost was Nabu's guidance. He was still as powerful as ever. The fact that he was referenced as one of the "big guns" of magic alongside Phantom Stranger backs this up. Just tell me the # that makes you think Hector was vastly weaker at this point, and I'll check it out so I can judge for myself.




You're getting confused and seem to be missing the context of what all was going on in DoV. You need to read my post at the top of the second page about the different Fates. Dr.Fate, Nabu, and Mordru are all called sorcerors.


Where is Nabu called a sorceror? And the context of DOV itself clearly implies that Nabu is the most powerful Lord of Order and Hector, while a big gun, lacks the neccessary experience to fill his boots. But if you think a previous issue sheds light to make this not at bad for ol' Hec, I'm all ears as pertains to a reference.


Kent Nelson(Dr.Fate) has fought the Spectre a number of times and Nabu has fought him at least twice.


I'm not up to date on their Pre-Crisis battles.

Gah, so many typos in that last post ... Cursed 15 minute edit rule.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan But it take a hell of a lot of effort and he is likely nowhere near as effective as he would be if he was given permission to fight as he wants. Thunderbolt does nothing in your scan that he hasn't do in "our" world, nor does it in any way imple he gets to start ignoring his user's orders with no trouble in there.


That's not true. Thunderbolt in our world wouldn't be able to run after and restrain someone on his own like he does in that page. For that matter if Jakeem were not around, as he's not in that scene, Thunderbolt wouldn't be able to do anything at all but just stand there. When Johnny Thunder died all Thunderbolt could do was hover over his body where it stood. With no commands he couldn't act. And as I told you Thunderbolt was part of a strike team. I'm not going to scan the whole book and you probably would still give some wierd interpretation to deny it anyway. But he's acting purely on his own. Proven by the fact that Jakeem is not even in the area.





Whether he's technically still as powerful ever or less powerful is semantic. The point is that he either lost alot of power or lost the ability to use the power he had. Take your pick. The issue where Nabu is trapped and I think the next 2 or so deal mainly with how limited Hector was like that. Much like he was when he and Nabu got into a short fight during Black Reign.







Nabu is called a sorceror all the time.





Did you read the Fate post? Nabu is not a Lord of Order. Nabu is a human being. A Lord of Order used his body as a host. For convenience, the nameless lord is sometimes referred to as "Nabu" but that is not his name. The Nameless One may very well be the most powerful Lord of Order but Hector is by far the most powerful Dr.Fate and an agent of Balance encompassing both Order and Chaos combined, not just Order. He's also more powerful than Nabu as well and has already outdone him.





I'm not talking post-Crisis. Unless specified everything I'm using is all present continuity. No alternate futures a la Legion, and no pre-Crisis.

Originally posted by Khem-Adam
That's not true. Thunderbolt in our world wouldn't be able to run after and restrain someone on his own like he does in that page.



All I see is him sticking his hand out and telling him not to attack. Doesn't look to me like the kid resisted much if at all, making it hard to call it a "restraining".



For that matter if Jakeem were not around, as he's not in that scene, Thunderbolt wouldn't be able to do anything at all but just stand there. When Johnny Thunder died all Thunderbolt could do was hover over his body where it stood. With no commands he couldn't act. And as I told you Thunderbolt was part of a strike team. I'm not going to scan the whole book and you probably would still give some wierd interpretation to deny it anyway. But he's acting purely on his own. Proven by the fact that Jakeem is not even in the area.


Did you ignore the scans I gave you of Thunderbolt in our world ignoring Jakeem''s request and actually fighting AGAINST him? He is capable of doing that; it just takes a LOT of concentration and thus significantly lessens his effectiveness. As for this "strike team", I'd like to see it, as well as the context (to see if it actually shows he clearly acted of his own accord, or if it's a case where he may've just been given an order off-panel)

In any event, talking of his own free will as he did in your scan is something he can easily do, even when his words go against his master's wishes. But thanks for totally ignoring my scans.






Whether he's technically still as powerful ever or less powerful is semantic. The point is that he either lost alot of power or lost the ability to use the power he had. Take your pick. The issue where Nabu is trapped and I think the next 2 or so deal mainly with how limited Hector was like that. Much like he was when he and Nabu got into a short fight during Black Reign.


Again, I'm waiting for a reference. I'd like to see whether he was actually much less effective or if this is going to turn out like your Thunderbolt scan that "proves" he can do things in the pen he can't do in the "real" world. If you'd just tell me the #, I'd check it out for myself. The context of DOV implies he's as powerful as ever, but again, I'm open to new evidence. I'd just like get an # so I can check it out for myself, rather than taking your word for it.



Nabu is called a sorceror all the time.


So ... Reference?





Did you read the Fate post? Nabu is not a Lord of Order. Nabu is a human being. A Lord of Order used his body as a host. For convenience, the nameless lord is sometimes referred to as "Nabu" but that is not his name.


Well, the "nameless lord" that calls itself "Nabu" is the one who fought Mordru and Spectre. He's the one who stated he's the most powerful magical being of the 9th age, and he's the one that I'm referring to.



The Nameless One may very well be the most powerful Lord of Order but Hector is by far the most powerful Dr.Fate and an agent of Balance encompassing both Order and Chaos combined, not just Order. He's also more powerful than Nabu as well and has already outdone him.



Nabu/the nameless one was clearly intended to be more powerful than Hector in DOV. I'm aware Hector's outdone him elsewhere. Hector's also had poor showings against Johnny Sorrow, Black Adam, and Neron, however. Fates in general are inconsistent. The only uber showings of Hector I've seen are vs. Mordru (the second fight between them, as the first wasn't that impressive up until Mordru tried to don the helmet) and Curse (again, the second fight between them).





I'm not talking post-Crisis. Unless specified everything I'm using is all present continuity. No alternate futures a la Legion, and no pre-Crisis.


Earlier, you mentioned you were using Pre-Crisis Fate/Spectre battles. If they've had so many Post-Crisis, I would like the references, so I can check them out for myself.

Originally posted by Jimmy-Chan All I see is him sticking his hand out and telling him not to attack. Doesn't look to me like the kid resisted much if at all, making it hard to call it a "restraining".



It doesn't matter how hard you think Shocko is resisting. The act itself of restraining him is the issue. Thunderbolt wouldn't be able to go after and restrain Shocko at all in our world if not asked to first. Your own scan shows this. And I've already mentioned that T-bolt commits various acts throughout the story as part of a team. I'm not going to upload the whole book.




WTF? Please don't tell me you mean this?

http://img145.imageshack.us/my.php?image=thunderbolt1vz1.jpg

Because this happens inside the pen!





And thanks for again showing that you don't really know what you're talking about and are just filling pages with misleading pictures. And distorted commentary on said pictures.





This really shouldn't be necessary. How can you go on and on trying to argue that Darkseid is as powerful as Dr.Fate without even this basic understanding of Dr.Fate's power? Anyway, I don't have the exact issue numbers but they're after Black Reign and before DoV.




Nabu being called a sorcerer. You actually need a referrence for this huh? I'll give you one, plus yet another referrence to Hector being more powerful than previous Dr.Fates. From JSA #4.

Mordru:"You've changed, Fate. Not what I expected. Your power is more vast."




No Hector hasn't. Hector outdid Nabu, not the Nameless One.




All while he had the mental blocks, a major detail which you continuously leave out. And I've already told you when those blocks were removed so I doubt you're doing it accidently.




Which is why I said "unless specified". I specified that I was using pre-Crisis that one time. I'd have to go searching to get the issue numbers so you'll have to look for them yourself. i'll spare anymore effort since it's pointless to keep going because you don't accept anything that hurts your argument no matter how plain and clear it is. But here's a referrence to Nabu as a sorcerer for the road.