Divine Intervention - Tia/Calypso (possible spoilers)

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LovelyOne
I said this in another thread but I think we should start a new one up based on this theme because we keep going off topic in other ones lol

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There is a huge theme in this movie about fate, divine intervention, certain events that happen in order for something else to happen later..and only one person is behind making all of this happen..Tia..and she's using Beckett to help her it seems.

You also have to look at the fact they are introducing a character called Calypso. The goddess of the sea.


This is a Greek goddess. And the only other story I have ever seen her in is the Odyssey written in ancient times..and what we actually see emotionally happen to Jack basically mirrors what happened to Odysseus when it came to being around women...she basically changed his whole perspective of them and how he should behave around them..and hello what do we see happen to Jack in DMC?..Oh and by the end of it? Jack chooses Penelope instead of immortality with Calypso LOL..the Odyssey was all about fate intervening..and gods goddesses making things happen so that othe things can happen to mortals etc..making Odysseus end up in certain places..and in the end..even making him change his attitudes towards women around...

..and when you look at ancient Greek literature..the most interesting ones are the Greek tragedies..and they are ALL based around fate of mere mortals and what people choose to do.. and how divine providence affects what they do etc..(we actually hear Ragetti SAY these two words in the long boat "I say it was divine providence that got us out of jail"wink

The main theme in ALL of these ancient stories is about how controlling the gods can be when they want certain events to happen in the lives of mere mortals..

Tia is probably making events happen so that certain emotions can arise through Jack/Liz/Will that are THERE anyway and she knows this..thats why it fits perfectly into her plan IMO....she cant make them love or hate by using her powers etc..cuz she's only the goddess of the sea not love..or war..and on top of that she's trapped in human form.so she's not controlling the kracken or Davy or anything..all she has is her overseeing powers at the moment IMO..and so she's making events happen s so that characters will be in certain places emotionally/physically when something else happens later...She's defiantly trying to make something happen in the future and I think Beckett is in on the deal...because one of the single most important events appears to be breaking Will and Elizabeth up...and he is the only one with legal power to stop the wedding..and he then even says two things that suggests he knows about their futures and how he is intervening in it..

I read so many tragedies in college..and honestly..this whole fate, intervention theme..and all the events we see happen? and how Tia appears to be behind them all.. Its all leading to tragedy for one character..and IMO its Will.

and when I say tragedy..It means two things..something tragic happens to him(dramatic realization) and then he does something incredibly stupid either to himself or someone else...or even both..

Oedipus...look up that name and read about him lol..it aint pretty

I think Will is heading for a similar fate.."you have a touch of DESTINY about you William Truner" - Tia

JaehSkywalker
ooh.. this is exciting...

Jacky Sparrow
yes, I totally agree with you!

there are so many actions that happen only because of fate I think (for example, when the reach Tortuga, how is it possible that Norri, Liz and Jack are all there at the same time)

In my opinion Beckett wants/needs/takes Tia's help to split up those two because HE wants the influence of the Governor and if Liz marries Will, Will will become the Governor and so he can't get the power he wanted

and with the touch of destiny she indicates this all. why else should she say this? and up till now there is no real destiny happened, he just met his father but I think that was not the thing she was referring to because when she says that she looks troubled, has anyone noticed that?

JaehSkywalker
I think i did... I think...

and nice sig Jacky..

LovelyOne
OMG!! you are totally on the same wavelength as me..Beckett wants to STOP pirates..and if Will becomes Governor?? the way he is at the moment??? HELL NO..Beckett needs to make this man change and not care about anyone but himself..although I think he will redeem himself and he will get his father in th end...he WONT DESERVE LIZ..thats for sure IMO..especially with this tragic ending..and it doesn't mean tragic for him..it means he's the one causing tragedy for other people..but it can be a bit of both.

LovelyOne
Oh and Jacks death?? No that wasnt his sealed fate..this was a mere event leading up to what ever his fate may be in movie 3..we will probably learn in movie 3 how important that moment of death was in order for his fate to unfold.

The audience sees that Tia had the means to bring Jack back in her hut before Jack even WENT TO SEE HER laughing out loud the woman is PLOTTING something laughing out loud

Think!"! if she knew about his death then WHY did she not say a WORD to Jack?..because its her plot to make him die and come back..and its going to be very signifiant to future events in movie 3.

Jacky Sparrow
yes, what make me wonder is another thing, when governor swann asks beckett what he wants, then he says, the authority of him, the influence in london and his loyalty?

LORD CUTLER BECKETT
Your authority as governor, your influence
in London, and your loyalty to the East
India Trading Company.

and a bit later he says to mercer something like, every person has a price and even for what he hopes never to sell, does that mean he wants Lizzie too? or lose lizzie to jack??I don't understand what he wants to say with that?? I don't he just refers to the authority.

LORD CUTLER BECKETT
So you see, Mercer, every man has a
price he will willingly accept. Even
for what he hopes never to sell.

LovelyOne
WOW great find!

well in movie 3 she gets kidpaped by Norrington and the EITC company...Tia probably told him she would be pn Sao Feng's ship at a certain time etc...

and when you look at how the story of the heart overshadows Liz's in movie 2..you get a glimpse of whats gonna happen in the beginning of movie 3..you can see that it gets kidnapped by norrington from the Jar if Dirt (sao feng's ship) and ends up in a sack in front of Bekett

but Liz's heart belongs to one man and one man alone..and it was the one who actually unlocked it in movie 2, JACK! laughing out loud


I cant understand why he would want Elizabeth..maybe to use to hurt Jack?..make him do things and threaten her life if he doesnt?

Jacky Sparrow
yes, but what else is he then referring? I mean we don't know what Jack has done to him and maybe it is then a revenge for that, or so. Perhaps he wants the influence and a beautiful woman, but what makes me wonder, he knows that Lizzie is a pirate, think on the meeting with the pistol. So I don't know WHY he says that!

LovelyOne
So you see, Mercer, every man has a
price he will willingly accept. Even
for what he hopes never to sell.

.

OMFG!! you just picked up on something amazing by finding that line!! Its about Jack and how he will probably give up certain things when it comes to Elizabeth and ONLY Elizabeth..certain things he LOVES because he loves that person MORE "she's only a ship mate" for ELIZABETH eek!

I found it strange how Mercer LET Liz go off with Jack on the pearl..and Norrington..OMG Beckett is TOTALLY in league with Tia...

SO THAT means in the future.. Bekett thinks he can use Liz to make Jack "weak.."..he can use her to threaten Jack..because jack will give up certain things when it comes to Elizabeth.

but Oh no this dudes wrong..when Liz is in danger??? Jack will kill the shit out of you

Tia still needs her end of the deal once Beckett is done with Jack...
which is making him immortal to be with her..but she's totally underestimating just how much Elizabeth means to him...Tia thinks she's making Jack HER hero.and probably thinks Jack would drop Liz in an instant if it comes to accepting immortality..she couldn't be more wrong..

LovelyOne
This actually contradicts itself.. I dont think tia can see the future..she just sees the future she is making/plotting..so she thinks jack will choose her but i bet he doesn't because of what we saw in the Odyssey with Calypso and Odysseus..it had very similar circumstances..

because divine intervetion means that she is changing the future to something else..

She probably knew the Kraken was going to get Jack..but she uses that to her advantage..and changes how it originally would have played out..by adding Will/Liz into the equation

Jacky Sparrow
oh, it wasn't finding...it was in my head after I've seen it the first time, maybe because I was wondering about that.

Yes, I think that they have a deal too.

and yes, what I found incredibly interesting, what you said, that Jack will give up things... but I think that Beckett will use Liz in another way, I don't think it'll be to give up the piracy...I think something more evil.

And we say the whole time, that Tia knows everything, but why not that Jack loves Liz more then to take the offer. (I hope you understand that)

LovelyOne
yes I agree..its gonna be more evil

yeh I dont think Tia knows everything..or she might..and Jack might actually end up with Tia/Calypso..but I really cant understand that because what we see happen to Odysseus emotionally when it comes to being with calypso or not pretty much mirrors what's happening to Jack being with calypso or not.
So yeah..pretty confusing lol..

Jacky Sparrow
Uh, I don't think he'll end up with Tia, that makes no sense and don't argue against you own theories, I love them!!!

katelovespirate
questions...

is tia calypso? or not? is that a completely different character? do they say who is playing her?

i like all the ideas about greek myths... oedipus... etc.... but i dont think any of the 3 main characters are going to have a completely tragic ending. i think will will probably get pretty dark but get better again at the end. thats just me though.

and i still dont think beckett and tia are in league.
beckett is representing an entirely different force/dynamic in the caribbean.

i DO think the fact that Tia wasnt surprised when Jack died has meritt...

Jacky Sparrow
there's no actor named calypso, so I think that it's Tia
but what worries me, is that there is named a Tortuga Wench, besides Giselle and Scarlett

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0449088/fullcredits

LovelyOne
Yes katelovespirate but how does Bekett know so much about the magical compass?

Jack only lets his closest friends in on that little secret because he trusts them...and then we learn that the only other person who knows about it is Tia herself because she made it

They seriously have spoken before hand IMO

Tia is not a real person she is a goddess trapped in a womans body so she probably could care less about what happens to pirates in the future..she probably cares only about what happens to Jack..so she makes a deal with Beckett

there have been confirmed spoilers about Jack being with Tia..and then this makes Davy angry because she was once calypso..and was his lover..I dont think Jack stlole her when she was calypso because that was yonks before he was born...she basically just left davy..and the only man she could actually be infatuated with was Jack Sparrow

which is why IMO Will doesnt have a chance now that Liz has kissed Jack..laughing out loud

Jacky Sparrow
yes, totally agreed!!! I think the always believe that Jack steals women but like we have seen with Lizzie, she is the one who chooses spontanous to kiss him. Maybe she'll try to convince Will that Jack has no blame on taking Liz away, but Will doesn't want to believe that.

LovelyOne
YES thats the whole deal..Jack never steals anyone..they just fall head over heals for him..and he actually does care about Liz in returm..I'm not sure if he really did want to give up his "freedom" to be with tia in the past..With Liz..he actually is..and when I say freedom..he's not really giving up his freedom when he accepts Liz in his life..thats the whole message..it actually made him more free.

and its all too strange how Bekett MADE it so the wedding was stopped..could he have not done it before hand?? or afterward? if it was REALLY about them letting Jack escape like a YEAR beforehand...no he makes that wedding stop and says "fate intervenes" he must have learned something a little too late when it comes to Will/Liz in the future..and he obviously learned it from Tia..

Jacky Sparrow
"and says "fate intervenes" he must have learned something a little too late when it comes to Will/Liz in the future.."

huh? that makes no sense to me. what do you want to say? but he was early enough to stop the wedding, or what?

LovelyOne
which again makes me think..Tia can obiously see the origional future and all you have to do is look at how Will feels at present towards pirates and how he will behave towards Bekett when Will takes up Liz's dads place.

In my opinion Tia can sense the emotions the characters feel at that very moment in time..as in of the present..so she must KNOW that elizabeth loves Jack deep down..and if they get together she will fall for him..and right now she knows Jack is basically infatuated with Elizabeth so she knows she can use it to her advantage..I dont think she can actually tell or know for sure how the characters wil certainly feel in the future..she's just guessing based on what she knows about them allhow things COULD play out.. in her own little version of the future she is trying to create.

LovelyOne
Originally posted by Jacky Sparrow
"and says "fate intervenes" he must have learned something a little too late when it comes to Will/Liz in the future.."

huh? that makes no sense to me. what do you want to say? but he was early enough to stop the wedding, or what?

I mean Will/Liz helped Jack escape like a year before that wedding so the reason he says he stopped the wedding has nothing to do with why he really did..he obviously didnt go to see tia until the time the wedding was almost here..and THEN he learned how much a threat Will would be to the EITC..why did he send FULL FORCE to get that wedding stopped and all because of something will/Liz did a year ago..why do they appear only now?..IMO that was an act of desperation because..he learned just in the nick of time how dangerous Will/Liz could become to his future plans..

OR! he might have spoken to Tia a long time a go..and the best time to intervene IS the wedding day because:

Liz being torn appart from Will and her wedding night makes her VERY sexually frustrated..so she would go for Jack all the more when he meets her...she was basically gagging for sex and Terry seemed to make that pont quite clear when talking about the waffle lol

I think my second guess is probably more plausable

because that theme is really important in movie 2..her lust after Jack. Stopping her just as she was so excited about finally getting some sex on her wedding noght, actually speeds up what would have been a slow process had she been arrested before the wedding..and met up with Jack.and the proccess is actually falling in love with Jack BTW IMO

Jacky Sparrow
Originally posted by LovelyOne
which again makes me think..Tia can obiously see the origional future and all you have to do is look at how Will feels at present towards pirates and how he will behave towards Bekett when Will takes up Liz's dads place.

In my opinion Tia can sense the emotions the characters feel at that very moment in time..as in of the present..so she must KNOW that elizabeth loves Jack deep down..and if they get together she will fall for him..and right now she knows Jack is basically infatuated with Elizabeth so she knows she can use it to her advantage..I dont think she can actually tell or know for sure how the characters wil certainly feel in the future..she's just guessing based on what she knows about them allhow things COULD play out.. in her own little version of the future she is trying to create.

ah!!! but she think she just uses jack to remove liz from will, but she does not know that jack loves liz in another way as he normally loves women! so she then thinks she could offer jack immorality and then he'll live with her...but she has underestimated his feelings, right?

LovelyOne
LOL i edited my last post a bit before you posted..and I think you are right about removinf Will from Liz by using Jack.

EDIT - oh wait you quoted my other post laughing out loud

and yes I think you are right with what you say..Tia basicaly says to Jack that she knows he's smitten with Liz when she talks about what his compass is pointing to laughing out loud

Jacky Sparrow
yip and I think he (beckett) has solved the problem with brilliantly...she is frustrated and jack is vexed, so that is no problem for him, but what he forgets I think is, that Liz and Jack are a lot more powerful then Will and Liz


somehow we're the only person who talk about it big grin

LovelyOne
AHA!! Tia/Bekett might just be thinking that Liz will only want Jack for sex thats why they arrested/seperated her from Will Liz just before she had the chance to release all her sexual tension (sorry but I cant explain it any cleaner than that lol) and Jack will be falling in love with her..changing his life "and Liz wont love him back" etc..but I dont think so IMO..because Liz has obviously been infatuated with Jack since before she even met him..she was reading about him etc as a child..she has all the potential in her to fall in love with him

LOL I dont think Tia/Beckett actually realize that these two are soul mates

Jacky Sparrow
Yes, but the soulmate thing is the one thing that makes them dangerous I think...because THEY know what the other is up to...and clever enough to trick everyone.


But that makes no sense Lovely One....I mean if she does not love him back (what they think) then she will return to Will (but that's what they don't want) So this can't be, or?

LovelyOne
Originally posted by Jacky Sparrow
Yes, but the soulmate thing is the one thing that makes them dangerous I think...because THEY know what the other is up to...and clever enough to trick everyone.


But that makes no sense Lovely One....I mean if she does not love him back (what they think) then she will return to Will (but that they don't want) So this can't be, or?

soul mates usually just means the complete right person for you "peas in a pod" lol..and they dont always have to be exactly the same as you in order to be a soul mate

What I think is..they dont want Liz to actually fall in love with Jack. Cuz Tia wants Jack...and if Jack did fall in love with Liz and Liz showed that she wanted to be with him in return ..then Tia wouldn't have a chance with him when asking him to join her in immortality

they just want her to cheat on Will so that he then turns a certain way when it comes to caring about people..IMO he's going to become selfish and not give a crap who dies or what ever basically turn into a pirate himself..and then they have right to get rid of him forever..I also think that kind of behaviour is going to put Liz off him..Yes she is a pirate but I think Will might take it a bit too far..much further than Jack ever would...

Jacky Sparrow
yes, I know what soulmate means... but I think Tia doesn't know the background of Lizzie, that she has read about him...and because of their denial Tia will have the opportunity to offer Jack immorality....So you think that at then end it can't be another ending as Liz/Jack? Because he'll refuse it from Tia and Will turned into something evil.

LovelyOne
Oh wait..I get what you mean..they dont want jack/Liz to really be together in the end because as soul mates it disrupts Bekett's and Tia's plans

I personally think they both want Elizabeth dead by the end of it all..Gov Swann is murdered in 3 apparetnly..and then thry need to murder the next one and only blood heir..which is Elizabeth..and Will is probably set to do it..I can only see his character doing this..not Jack..

I think will is going to do something very bad..but he will redeem himself somehow before the end.

which means we still like his character but he wont deserve Liz IMO

Jacky Sparrow
sorry, I'm not good in explaining!! But yes, that's what I meant....but if it's Tias plan fails, why should she then in the end bring lIz back to life? I don't believe they let her die and end the movie....

or

then they could jack force to do something ,what they want, to get his liz back!!!

LovelyOne
Oh wait..no Will wont become Gov. when Gov. swan dies..but these 2 together are obviously a threat to him and the EITC in the future. Will could possibly become someone with even higher power and ALL because he married into Liz's family..

Oh Tia would probably bring Liz back if she dies at the request of Jack..after turning down immortality...what important character ever dies and stays dead in PotC? laughing out loud

when Odysseus turned down immortality in the Odyssey..Calypso accepted it and actually helped (rather reluctantly) Jack get home to Penelope who was in danger

CaptinJackLover
No i highly doubt Will become a Gov...it wouldnt seem right...

If Liz does die...which i highly doubt she will....i dont think they should bring her back to life (althought i would be terribly sad)...it would just ruin the movie...they have already brought enough people back from dead (or at leats will have by the time POTC 3 comes out) and it will just be taken over board

LovelyOne
no thats the point..Jack gives up immortality to save Elizabeth..that would be a great ending IMO..you dont just come across an offer for immortality every day lol...and Jack is a man everyone thinks only cares about himself..and that he would choose that offer in a heart beat..and thats what the theme is basically amounting to in PotC as a franchise according to T&T

how much is Jack willing to give up in order to be happy with Elizabeth?

Is he capable of a long term relationship with a woman?

Will/Liz/Beckett/Tia(she thinks he will chose her though) and the audience all think no

well I think we are going to get one heck of a twist when it comes to what Jack's character is willing to do when it comes to Elizabeth..wwe already got a taster of it "she's only a ship mate" nearly gave me a friggin heart attack when he said that and i found him so amazing after doing that for another person.

and he cant be Gov ur right..but marrying into that family means he can move up in the world alot more when he's not just a mere blacksmith..he might gain a position of pretty high power

CaptinJackLover
i know i practically died when i heard hm say that! i was like Liz come on you definatley cnat turn him down now!



but how would he gain a lot of power after all that piracy work he has done...he has helped MANY pirates so how would it be possible for him to go back to his normal life let alone have pretty high power....

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