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1. Ordinary World
2. Call to Adventure
3. Refusal of the Call
4. Meeting With the Mentor
5. Crossing the First Threshold
6. Tests, Allies, Enemies
7. Approach
8. Supreme Ordeal
9. Reward
---------------------------------------
10. The Road Back
11. Resurrection
12. Return With the Elixir

I would say thats how far Jack has got in the story which is pretty much good closure for movie 2 as Ted and Terry say..because he basically does have the elixer .he just needs to return with it.

and guess what the elixer is..yep its Liz.

im confused ... are those chapter titles for the dvd of DMC ???? ....

...just realised how stupid i sounded, sorry lol

wow! I'm like always impressed!! I hope so that they'll make it that way!!

huh dont get it

Mensch!! That's how to become a hero...step by step!!! And Jack has now reached step 9. savvy? and now he just have to make 3 steps be the right hero!

oooh i get it!

riiiiiiiiiiiiiight

oh it makes sense now!!

nice theory!!!!!

can anyone find any other essay-style theories on the internet concerning jack/liz?

ive been trying for ages but theres no hope...it seems that no one can really understand the complexities of the relationship like us shippers

LovelyOne, have you read "The Hero with a thousand faces?" It's really good and it talks about the same things you are. I was just wondering.

No i never read that but I was made to study these steps in college lol

is it a good book?

movie 2/3 are actually one story..i can imagine them doing the 12 steps again with Jack though because they kinda need to..in each lord of the rings despite the fact frodo was following these 12 over the entire trilogy..in each movie he started from scratch again lmao.

Also because movie 1 was one story Will was the reluctant hero who got the girl...Jack was the mentor...he was there thoughout

Tia is obviously the mentor in movie 2/3..because although we dont see her..she is the one behind many of the events IMO.."helping Jack along"

Will's new elixir is obviously his father and Tia is actually helping him too

1. Ordinary World
2. Call to Adventure
3. Refusal of the Call
4. Meeting With the Mentor
5. Crossing the First Threshold
6. Tests, Allies, Enemies
7. Approach
8. Supreme Ordeal
9. Reward
10. The Road Back
11. Resurrection
12. Return With the Elixir

where did his story end in movie 2?? number 6?

not sure if they have put Liz in this category..because she doesnt actually have a set elixir ..well there is Will but she actually is WANTING to get him from the very beginning its the thing that they are first reluctant to face/have that they end up with

AHA!! she ended it at number 4..or possibly number 5..because she accepts she wants to get Jack back in her life..I think its number 5 where she ends movie 2

Jack is her true elixir

Oh, that's really exciting! And yes, Jack's her elixir!! Oh...ladies...we find every day new reason why it must be a Jack/Liz end!

Ok so wait..remember the elixir/ call to adventure is the thing the hero is first afraid to take...Jack sets off wanting the chest but running away from Liz...Liz sets off wanting Will and is in fact running away from Jack..Will sets off wanting to save Liz..but in fact meets his dad after the mentor who becomes the person he decideds to be a hero for

Movie 2 and 3 are basically 1 story

Jack's Elixir is Elizabeth:

1. Ordinary World
2. Call to Adventure
3. Refusal of the Call
4. Meeting With the Mentor (tia)
5. Crossing the First Threshold
6. Tests, Allies, Enemies
7. Approach
8. Supreme Ordeal
9. Reward
---------------------------------------Movie 3?
10. The Road Back
11. Resurrection
12. Return With the Elixir

Will Elixir is his father

1. Ordinary World
2. Call to Adventure
3. Refusal of the Call
4. Meeting With the Mentor (Tia)
5. Crossing the First Threshold
6. Tests, Allies, Enemies
-------------------------------------movie 3?
7. Approach
8. Supreme Ordeal
9. Reward
10. The Road Back
11. Resurrection
12. Return With the Elixir

Elizabeths Elixir is Jack:

1. Ordinary World
2. Call to Adventure
3. Refusal of the Call
4. Meeting With the Mentor (tia)
5. Crossing the First Threshold (accepting to get Jack back)
----------------------------------------------------- movie 3?
6. Tests, Allies, Enemies
7. Approach
8. Supreme Ordeal
9. Reward
10. The Road Back
11. Resurrection
12. Return With the Elixir

Jack is ahead of everyone lmao..poor Liz she's taking so darn long..

OMG it all fits so well! honestly..look at the events that hapen to Jack in movie 2 and place it over the first 9 points..tests allies and enimies is where jack had Liz on his ship but was still worrying about what to trust more his material objects or her...then when he's on the beach..Will and Norrington both turn on him..and Liz lol..he's tested here..its where he learns that material objects SUCK

then do the same with Will place it over the first 6..he ends up not knowing who the hell to trust..all he knows is that he has his trusty old dad to be with..


and then Liz over the first 5..it fits really well lmao

yes, how you have now explained it to us, makes sense. Oh, I would like to be as smart as you...alright you're studying that, but in spite of that. So, but one question then...what will Liz enemies be? Will?

aww thanks xxx

Oh god each character is gonna friggin die..Jack already has..


Will is probably going to get his before Liz probably the middle of movie 3...and Liz is probably going to get hers at the very end..but there is resurrection remember that peeps

ok first of all..im just dumb lol if u guys havent noticed. im not stupid in english but im not perfect

what does exilir or elixir mean?

Originally posted by Chiki Mina
ok first of all..im just dumb lol if u guys havent noticed. im not stupid in english but im not perfect

what does exilir or elixir mean?

Iy's the hero's ultimate prize at the end of a story, the one thing they want "most in this world" LMAO..so THATS why they added that friggin COMPASS!

Oh and BTW..the ressurection is not where he's going to be pulled out of purgatory..thats the road back..resurrection is where they become what they were born to be the true hero..and then we see them return with the elixir

you know what..if we all just looked at this earlier we would have all been alot happier over the past few months lmao..

i know ppl are still freeking out geeshhh..

so jack has the 12 steps to be a hero??

or his still has some to achieve.

OMG OMG OMG OMG!!

By the end of movie 2:

Campbell's model compared with Voglers model in braketts

World Of Modern day
(1.Ordinary World)

Call to adventure
(2. Call to adventure)

Refusal of the call
(3. refusal of the call)

Supernatural Aid
(4. Meeting with the mentor)

Crossing The First Threshold
(5. Crossing the first threshold, belly of the whale)

**************************ELIZABETH**************

Road of Trials
(6. Allies, enemies, tests)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^WILL^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Meeting With The Goddess
Woman as Temptress
Atonement with The Father
Apotheosis
(7. Approach To The Inmost Cave / 8. Supreme Ordeal)

The Ultimate GODSEND
(9. The reward, seizing of the sword)

---------------------------------------JACK----------------------------------------

The Refusal of the Return
The Magic Flight
Rescue From Within
Closing The Threshold
Return
( 10. Road back home)

Master of the Two Worlds
(11. Resurrection becomes hero again)

Freedom to Live
(12. Return with the Elixir..ultimate prize)



As you can see, Vogler's list is a simplified version of Campbell's model. Thus, where he simply lists "The Road Back", Campbell's model includes those obstacles in the Hero's path along the road back. Vogler's book is a guide to Campbell's model for writers to use when crafting their stories and looking to add depth of meaning to their characters and plots. He gives a very detailed, clear and concise exploration of the Hero's Journey with a focus on modern cinema.

Originally posted by Chiki Mina
i know ppl are still freeking out geeshhh..

so jack has the 12 steps to be a hero??

or his still has some to achieve.

Jack still has the road back home, resurrection and return with the elixir

in other words, ressurection as in back to life and return with the elixir meaning returning with liz?

resurrection is him accepting being a hero again I think..there is always a moment where they accept to be a hero ( face the inner most cave gain reward)..and then the journey back home something kinda gets in their way where they refuse to carry on and they need to become the hero again

so its more like an internal conflict.

accepting to be a hero accepting responsibiliy to take care of ur loved one(s)

yeah exactly^^

"The Hero has died a modern man; but as eternal man - perfected, unspecific, universal man(because of Elizabeth) - he has been reborn. His second solemn task and deed therefore . . . is to return to us, transfigured, and teach the lesson he has learned of life renewed. . . . The effect of the successful adventure of the Hero is the unlocking and releasing again the flow of life into the body of the world."

OK GOT IT!!

so its like a ressurection of the new jack

the old jack died. the cowardness, the material objects, the lying all the darkness died. all his old ways.

he is born again a new man. sees everything now in a different way. he sees a light through the tunnel. He finally understand the meaning of life and has a reson to live for it (liz).

jack is still jack, but different. he just sees everything in a different ligh. and learns something new in life. again jack is still jack..but stronger in character.

i LOVE this. reminds me of beowolf. LOL...

I think turning back for the crew, kissing Liz and then fighting the Kraken may have been Jack's supreme ordeal--- or will it be defeating the EITC/Davy Jones or something?

the big step he took was bravery. and i think the biggest was excepting liz in his heart-in his life

Originally posted by Chiki Mina
so its more like an internal conflict.

accepting to be a hero accepting responsibiliy to take care of ur loved one(s)

YESH! thats his biggest fear in movie 2..is the obligation of Elizabeth..and the hero at first is afraid persue the elixir...he denies the call to adventure it is what he fears..but when she is in danger he becomes the hero for her..

"No i never read that but I was made to study these steps in college lol

is it a good book?

movie 2/3 are actually one story..i can imagine them doing the 12 steps again with Jack though because they kinda need to..in each lord of the rings despite the fact frodo was following these 12 over the entire trilogy..in each movie he started from scratch again lmao.

Also because movie 1 was one story Will was the reluctant hero who got the girl...Jack was the mentor...he was there thoughout

Tia is obviously the mentor in movie 2/3..because although we dont see her..she is the one behind many of the events IMO.."helping Jack along"

Will's new elixir is obviously his father and Tia is actually helping him too

1. Ordinary World
2. Call to Adventure
3. Refusal of the Call
4. Meeting With the Mentor
5. Crossing the First Threshold
6. Tests, Allies, Enemies
7. Approach
8. Supreme Ordeal
9. Reward
10. The Road Back
11. Resurrection
12. Return With the Elixir"

It is a good book. It relates a lot of this stuff to Beowulf, Luke Skywalker, and Odysseus to name a few. Jack definitely applies here. For clarification, can you explain these steps?
Would you consider Tia Dalma, or even Barbosa, to be Jack's mentor? It doesn't seem like he really has one, especially since he plays mentor to Will. I think Will and Liz both fit these steps, too. They're all heroes!
Also, what is approach?

i'd set down tia as the supernatural help/ mentor for sure.

LOL the people on keep to the code are now bullying me because I posted that..saying I need a 12 step plan myself because I'm going crazy..lol they are shakin in their boots me thinks..

Explain approach to me, and I won't think you're crazy! lol. Why do you keep going back to those losers?

They are all pretty silent at the moment..because i said this:

and as soon as Will meets the mentor for the first time Tia actually HELPS him gain his true elixir..His father..she gives him the location to the flying dutchman where his father is located..and after this he takes the first threshold..he begins to persue the means to gain his elixir...he's probably going to go through something similar to what we saw and are going to see Jack do when it comes to gaining his elixir

Same with Jack..by sending Will there she can help Jack can now gain his elixir..and he begins to right after the supernatural help..he's the one who got the furthest before the story ended but he still has to face the other steps before he can return home with her.

same with Liz..when its her turn to meet the supernatural helper ..she helps her to perssue her true elixir. Jack Sparrow. and she accepts the first threshold..which is going after him to singapore..

and this is the closure to the love triangle that Terry and Ted are on about...they have all chosen their top priority in life thier true elixir by the end of movie 2...so move 3 need not be there as they say..but they are gonna make it anyway lol

and this:
well the help usually given is the means for them to find their true elixir

Will = location to the dutchman and his father..and can learn how to save him

Jack = gives Will the distraction so that Jack can now learn to gain his elixir (Liz)

Liz = Gives her the means to go and gain her true elixir (Jack) and she accepts the next thershold before the movie ends.

Look at the supernatural helper in the Matrix 1..Trinity was the elixir for Neo..and she tries to make him understand and by the inner most cave moment where he faces his fear he actually does.."there is no spoon"

what Liz did to him was the rejection to the call of adventure/action..the rejection to gain the elixir..then she gets to the supernatural help/mentor and decideds to take the first threshold and persue her elixir

OMG!! you know what? I think will is actually at the meeting with the goddess/temptress stage..and Its not Liz..Its Tia lmao

Willofthewisp..Tia is the mentor/supernatural aid to all 3 characters in movie 2 and 3 I 'm guessing

Jack sort of hands over his reigns to her when he meets her..He was actually the mentor in movie 1 for both characters..thats why he didn't end up with anyone lol..

all the other characters in the story will probably revolve aroind the minor parts..like the "shadow"(Dragon Lady?) the "trickster" etc..Jack's a trickster but he is a main character/hero so he's not the one..Norrington was actually the trickster I think

4th post in a row!

Here's where dear ole Lizzie is by the end of movie 2

World Of Modern day - I actually think this is movie 1 because straight away they all get called into adventure by movie 2
(1.Ordinary World)

Call to adventure
(2. Call to adventure)( bekett was telling her it was Jack she wants to save, the compass was telling her to go with Jack...Norrington was telling her it was Jack she wants as a man..BUT!..her denial was constantly there because she;'s stuck on this stage through out the middle of movie 2..she still has Will on her mind she's determiend to believe he is one thing she wants most but Jack as a person needs her in his life a WHOLE lot more, she is his elixir..Jack coming back was basically him saying."I need YOU in my life Elizabeth"

Refusal of the call
(3. refusal of the call)(refuses Jack, determined to think that it's Will who she needs although will did save him self before hand without her..I actually think that they made it so she "saves him" at th e end so she wont be a totally hated character for refusing Jack/call to adventure like that. Jack coming back for her is what told her that he needs her in his life to feel strong..and she refused the call..this must be why she feels so guilty afterward..the man needs her in his life or he will crumble as a person..and she refused him..left him to die.)

Supernatural Aid
(4. Meeting with the mentor)(Tia's hut is where she realizes where her true priorities lie/true elixir..Tia helps her in gaining him)

Crossing The First Threshold
(5. Crossing the first threshold, belly of the whale) (accepts Jack as an obligation is going to set out after her true elixir )

Hey Guys,
I have been reading the boards for a long time I hardly eer post, I do love reading your stories and Theories. You are all so talented. I do have to say Lovleyone : this is a great theory and My Favorite!!!

do anti-heroes have different steps than heroes?

lol just wondered.

I do majorly agree that Liz has initially rejected the elixer and is now on a quest to find it...

I wonder if Davy Jones might, in some ways, become one of Will's mentors/supernatural aids.

he may well be..but I doubt Davy Will be a GOOD mentor if you know what I mean..he's going to teach Will to hate Jack...davy is a horrible man

I can imagine this being a point where he does something bad to liz becuse she is no longer his goal /elixir in the story..so what ever he does he will have time to redeem. (resurrection) before the end..

Jack was rejecting his elixir until he met up with Tia...who basically tells us that he is rejecting herlol "loath to claim it as your own"..so she gives him a shove in the right direction..she gives him the jar of dirt so that he loses what he thinks is his true elixir..and it also makes him learn to stop putting faith into material objects..thet are in no way as important as Liz..his saftey is not imporatnt..hers is..then he goes back and gets her

she also helps him by getting rid of will so he can face the first threshold..he takes Liz on board..(quite literally)

Originally posted by shannstar79
Hey Guys,
I have been reading the boards for a long time I hardly eer post, I do love reading your stories and Theories. You are all so talented. I do have to say Lovleyone : this is a great theory and My Favorite!!!

Its not really my theory ..its volgers and campbells..they picked up on it like 50 years ago..you can place it over almost any story revolving around a hero and it usually fits perfectly..even ones from hundreds of years ago..even since ancient times..

but thatnks..but I dont deserve the credit lol

I just realized..they probably wont do the 12 steps again from scratch in movie 3..LotR never did that lol I was wrong...movie 1 is pretty seperate from movie 2/3..movie 1 appears to actually be the world of modern day in terms of steps in movie 2

My guess would be that anti heroes spend more time in rejecting the call. They don't see themselves as heroic and usually don't think they can make a difference. Sometimes they're usually doing something self-promoting that distracts them from doing the right thing. Look at Han Solo, who is an anti-hero.

1. Ordinary World: he's a pirate in their universe, a smuggler who lives day in and day out exactly the same, running from the law.
2. Call to Adventure: Luke and Obi-Wan hire him for a lot more than any of them bargained for.
3. Refusal of the Call: He blantantly tells Leia he's in it for the money. He spends a long time in this stage, much longer than Luke. The whole second movie he's stuck in a refusal.
4. Meeting With the Mentor: Lando is kind of an anti-mentor to Han. He's not who Han wants to be, and I think he has Chewie for a mentor in the sense that Chewie is his conscience.
5. Crossing the First Threshold: It doesn't look like much, but in the first movie, he saves Luke from being blown up by the Death Star. Keeping in order, he also saves Leia from the Empire and bravely steps in front of her when they meet Darth Vader.
6. Tests, Allies, Enemies: the whole deal with whether or not to trust Lando is a test, gaining an ally or an enemy, and Boba Fett is basically Han's arch enemy.
7. Approach: I still don't know what this is, LovelyOne!!!!!!!!!
8. Supreme Ordeal
9. Reward
10. The Road Back
11. Resurrection
12. Return With the Elixir

I need some help understanding what the last few are. Anyone?

katelovespirate..for some reason i think Tia is going to remain the main mentor in the story because 2/3 is basically one story..its not really a new story when it starts in movie 3 its just continuing from the other..they have all met the most important mentor who is the person to kick them off on their journey..Jack actually needs a bit of extra help..she gives him something physical to help him achieve his elixir..because the main hero usually does need some sort of aid..

Davy..I think he's going to play one of those smaller parts..like the "shadow" or something

Willofthewisp..it appears you are rght..Jack is very much the anti hero to start with so tia gives him something physical..to seriously knock some sense into him..and its the Jar of Dirt..he is the one who is making the biggest transition as a person and just giving him the means to his elixier wont be enough I dont think..he needs something else to truly break the mould and slap him in the face and it was the Jar of dirt.

willofthewisp..movie 2 is a totally different story to movie 1..those 12 steps already took place for Will..and Jack was the mentor..

now though each character is setting of on a new heroic adventure by movie 2..I think the normal world first stage is actually movie 1..because Will is a hero..Liz is the leading lady and Jack is the rogue..its how they end it..I think liz and Jack both did their 12 steps too..but in a much smaller way

movie 2 throws us right into stage 2 - Call to adventure and so it begins for each character

its like a whole new story..

and because Will has already been the hero?? EEEKK

Sorry I'm posting so much but this is all exciting me..

Meeting With The Goddess
Woman as Temptress
Atonement with The Father
Apotheosis
(7. Approach To The Inmost Cave / 8. Supreme Ordeal)

He DOES go back because of Elizabeth..the compas DOES point there..and why do the directors/Writers not confirm thet the compass pointed and stuck on her?? because it GIVES IT AWAY!

He's just gone back to her and Apotheosis actually means ELEVATION TO THE RANK OF A GOD..and look at that godlike SHOT THEY USE when the temptress looks up at him!..lol Oh man I love film studies

he doesnt do all of those things in that stage..they are usually the reasons why they go into the inner most cave so its Liz..and its also because of the goddess..Tia had just helped him realize material possessions SUCK and the apotheosis is the supreme ordeal

He's reached that stature in the movie..there is no need for him to do that again..so I doubt he will be the one who accepts imortallity

i still dont quite know what you mean about the jar of dirt.
LOL... in my mind, the jar of dirt is just the jar of dirt... something Tia knew would soothe Jack's mind and help him get over there and get the bloody key, cause at this point Jack was afraid of oepn water. And being close to Jones, Tia knew the loopholes of his curses and punishments.
i dont think she had any deep sinister use or meaning for the jar of dirt other than honestly helping Jack. and i think it was a comic gag, also.

you don't just randomly add in a jar of dirt unless it means something..Jack appears to be the main hero of the story now..but he's making the transition from anti hero to hero so its going to be tough for him..and the main hero is usually given something physical to help in their journey to face the inner most cave/supreme ordeal..instead of just being given the actual elixir in his life.he needs a bit more help lol..thats why when we see him take the first threshold he's not exactly changing all that much..he does take liz on board..but he needs something to really wake him and decide to make her an obligation..unlike Will who as soon as he meets his dad decides to pursue the means to save him..and as soon as Liz meets the supernatural helper she straight away knows she wants Jack back in her life..but Jack being Jack?? needs a bot more of a SHOVE

"is it going to help?" - Jack

"if you don't want it give it back" - Tia

"no" - Jack

"then it helps" - Tia

See tia knows its going to help him..she's not REALLY giving him the means to pursue the chest..or help him gain the heart..because it NOT his true elixir..Jack knows he wants Liz but is reluctant to give up his "freedom" for her..this whole pursuing the chest of his is something to distract him from Elizabeth and being brave and he knows it..Tia knows that the only way Jack will accept Liz is if he learns to let go of material objects and a selfish way of living

Jack is a very selfish and cowardly man and this JoD actually helps him realize that there are more important things to worry about in life than material objects and the means to save ones skin..(coward)..the jar of dirt betrays him in a time of danger.so he learns to stop loving them so much..to stop foolishly clinging onto material objects to feel strong in times of danger because they CANT make you strong and you cant really rely on them because they are not a long term answer to safety and happiness..at all..and he learns this..he loses the heart..which was never the true elixir anyway..and he's learned to stop treating material objects as if they are the most important things in his life

He now has reason to approach his inner most cave..Elizabeth the elixir and Tia(goddess/supernatural with the Jar of dirt) helped prompt him along..then he faces the supreme ordeal and elevates to a god..and Liz clings to his leg with hat godlike shot..the temptress clings to his leg..later Jack gains the reward which is the actual elixir..and the only thing i see him happy about getting there is Elizabeth lol

SO True about the JOD I never quite thought of it that way!!

"willofthewisp..movie 2 is a totally different story to movie 1..those 12 steps already took place for Will..and Jack was the mentor.."

I'm looking at all three movies as a continuous story. If Will is going to be tempted to cross into the dark side, then his hero story isn't complete. If it took Jack two movies to be at the point of waiting for resurrection, then his story's not complete. These steps apply to all three of them because all three of them grow in all the series. I would call all of Movie 1 Will's crossing of the threshold. Jack serves more as a mentor, but we find out he is undergoing his own hero process. I just am looking at all three as three acts of a play rather than separate stories.

It cant be because this is as far as Liz gets from the start of movie 2 which is actually the call to adventure..movie 2 and 3 are one story..they made sure each character has actualy found their true calling in life from the mentor beforeit cuts out .Liz only JUST makes it before the movie closes because they want people to be thinking that her refusal of the call was the main emotional step she took, she's "chosen Will".. ..when she actually took 2 more really quickly before it closed..its to keep everyone wondering

1. Ordinary World - movie 1 ends
2. Call to Adventure - movie 2 starts she thinks she wants Will but its actually Jack..and when she gets called upon to be with jack?
3. Refusal of the Call - she refuses Jack and wants to stick with her old way of life..she doesnt want adventure
4. Meeting With the Mentor - meets tia
5. Crossing the First Threshold - accepts her elixir/adventure



remember movie 1 was made with no intention of a movie 2..so they had to give that movie proper closure..and end the 12 steps nicely. It was one story on its own..no intention of a second

They had to do that with Movie 1 of star wars aswell..they never had the intention to make 2 or 3..so Lucas used the 12 steps in that story when 2 and 3 came out he started again and put them over movie 2 and 3 evenly

What i notice with BOTH though..is how they did close the story..but they left little hints out there for a sequal if it was a success..which PotC 1 and star wars 1 actually did before it closed

Jack with Liz on his mind as he leaves
Liz and the whole how far did she go with Jack?
Will and the fact his father is still alive somewhere
they showed a little darkness in Will's character
and in Liz

and little goodness in Jack

I just don't think Movie 1 should be considered her ordinary world. It is her first adventure, being kidnapped by pirates and then fighting alongside another band of pirates to stop her kidnappers. Somehow that has to be her call to action because her character's most basic characteristic is that she needs an adventure. I would almost say that her refusal to accept the call is when she has her little outburst on the beach. She's been disillusioned about the pirate life, is mad at Jack, and mad at Will and Norrington. What do you think? I just think if we're going to say the hero steps apply to her, we can't focus too heavily on her romance with Jack. We have to focus on just her.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
I just don't think Movie 1 should be considered her ordinary world. It is her first adventure, being kidnapped by pirates and then fighting alongside another band of pirates to stop her kidnappers. Somehow that has to be her call to action because her character's most basic characteristic is that she needs an adventure. I would almost say that her refusal to accept the call is when she has her little outburst on the beach. She's been disillusioned about the pirate life, is mad at Jack, and mad at Will and Norrington. What do you think? I just think if we're going to say the hero steps apply to her, we can't focus too heavily on her romance with Jack. We have to focus on just her.

i agree. we need to focus on these characters as whole by themselves, ya know? or something. lol.

It's just that we seem to define women by who they are romantically linked to much more than we do men. On a board like this, that's fine because we all want one of the guys to be with Liz (Jack! Come on!) but you can't do that if you're looking at her from a heroine point of view. Based on her choices and her overall goal of getting her adventure, I'd say Movie 1 takes her out of her ordinary world.

gosh, you ladies are just getting to complicated for me. All of this is making my head spin. All I want is for Jack and Liz to sail away together...but movie 3 must be full of tensed moments....and I definitely think the ultimate Hero in this trilogy is Jack...the actor Johnny Depp has said his character gets to go places he never thought possible for this character in movie 3...I wonder what that could mean..I guess it could be that he becomes the ultimate good guy....but I find that hard to believe because he is Captain Jack Sparrow...but then again...the Jack Sparrow we saw at the end of DMC was a totally different Jack...and IMO a much more likeable Jack....and sexier....but anyways, I digress...
Or could it mean he actually admits to falling in love....or after his near death experience ....he becomes darker...I hope not the third....if you read that stupid leaked script (which I hate by the way) it makes Jack sound darker and disillusioned....I don't really like Jack in the leaked script...and there was a comment by Jerry B. that said in the third movie (I read in a magazine one day at grocery store) that they take the character of Jack Sparrow to places never imagined...and that you have to take risks in order to keep the audience interested...you can't keep things status quo...and then that comment where I read one of the writers (T and T) say that: People see the character of Jack Sparrow as a good guy...but he is? That's why we put him in situations to see how the character reacts...well, I would say by the end of DMC - it's proven that Jack is a good man...because instead of doing the cowardly thing and continuing to row toward land and abandon his ship and friends...he goes back and saves the day....Plus, Jack does consider himself a CAPTAIN...and a Captain always goes down with his ship...so me thinks...that he did plan to stay and he let Liz chain him to the mast...so he could prove to her that she was like him...he's smiling cuz she proves herself true to him...and I read this on fanfic and it made sense...Jack may realize he loves her right there, right at that moment...but instead of being able to say "I love you" because that is not part of his vocabulary...he simply says "Pirate." I know this has nothing to do with the 12 steps to a hero...but just felt like talking about my feelings on the movie and this seems to be the only place I can turn. Thank you, girls, for always listening to me...And I love reading what everyone posts....

mmmmm another fabulous post lovethemtigers.

Well, perhaps that will be part of Jack's journey. I might be a bit darker and disillusioned if I had died and was sailing around some depressing locker full of crabs. But after the crew rescues him and they all have a mission to save piracy from the EITC and stuff, I reckon Jack will get his spirits back. right?
Also, even though i think Jack was proud of what Liz did and was turned on by it, thats still a major blow to whether or not he will trust people at large. And not only that, but if he really does still have feelings for Elizabeth, and sees her continuing with Will (i havent read the script so i dont know) that would depress him, right?

I definately think that ALL the characters are going to some dark places in 3... but they will come back and get happy and funny again by the end.

Lovethemtigers, no one wants to make you feel stupid or anything. Your posts are quite deep and insightful and so common sense that I love hearing from you. It was a great post.

I read SOME, like a page or two of the "leaked" script. Remember it's the first draft. Few scripts go without changes. Just read the original POTC: COTBP script. Full of differences. I want Jack and Liz to sail away together, too, but I don't think it's going to be easy. He is going to be darker because he doesn't know himself as well as he thought he did. He never thought in a million years he would go back to a ship that was about to be pulled apart by the kraken. He's not going to be as confident and he probably has no idea how to act around Liz.

yeah but that was one story its not really linked with movie 2 and 3 the main enemy is different EITC/Davy Jones..they have actually started from scratch again with the 12 steps because each character's arc has changed with this movie and its going to continue into movie 3


there was a pretty much closed ending with movie 1 of star wars and movie 2 ended on a cliff hanger to continue to movie 3..2/3 were pretty much 1 story..where as 1 was just a movie of its own really..

the first thereshold is actually just after getting help from the mentor..when you look at the lion king. He meets Rafiki and then his first threshold is following him to find his father..the one thing he was reluctant to do.

there is a whole new mentor in DMC/AWE for all the characters..meaning the 12 steps have started again...it seems as if they are giving each main character a hero's journey this time..not just 1..they bcause movie 2/3 are one story they have more time to make this happen.thats why movie 2 was so ling..because its following each character's hero's journey

I'm sure that Obi Wan was the mentor for luke in one...and movie 2/3 it was yoda?

lovethemtigers The place where everyone thinks he cant go is love with a woman LOL there is a whole theme arising in movie 3 about Jack not being abe to love a woman (even though we have SEEN him do it by the end of movie 2)..but he totally is by the end of it lmao..Its gonna be lizzie

LovelyOne...you are just so confident when it comes to jack and liz...as much as I want it to be Jack and Liz I'm just not as confident as you are...I so hope you are right in all of your theories....I'm beginning to lose hope the further we move away from DMC and toward AWE...I need to go back and read the thread All Clues Point to Jack and Elizabeth..that's back when I was confident.

lovethemtigers..we don't need to worry lol because Jack is 10 steps ahead of everyone as usual LOL and the last thing he did before he died was gain his elixir..he just needs to return home with it lol..we all know the reward/elixir he got was Liz in that scene

trust me there will be a moment where he gives up on her in movie 3 for a while..there is always a reason why the hero feels as if they cant go on just after they have gained the elixir..but then they completely resurrect themselves they get help from within/someone reminds them of what they set out to do and IMO

Think of the lion king..he has his elixir (return home as king) but Scar taunts him and makes him feel weak again...then he resurrects himself and totally kicks his ass..he rescued himself from within because he remembered his father dying at the hands of scar.

Then when you look at frodo..he finally gets to mount doom to relieve him of his burden. The relief of the burden is frodo's elixir..but THEN he refuses to continue "NO! the ring is mine!"..he needs to be rescued from within and Sam does that for him/prompts him to pull himself out of the refusal and frodo then resurrects himself and lets the ring go.

hero's elixirs can be different things..it can be a woman..or it can be relieving a burden for themselves and everyone like frodo with the ring or harry potter with his scar/voldermort..those kind of Hero's tend not to do what they do for the female.

when the elixir is a woman..its usually defeating the fear of protecting her..and thats what we see Jack do as he goes back..his fear of making her an obligation in his life

Will is probably going to be the one who kills davy Jones and gain his elixir (father)..that will be his supreme ordeal..Jack has already gone through his...he just needs to friggin TAKE lizzie be brave enough to take her and return home with her lol

I have a feeling Liz' supreme ordeal will be rescuing Jack from the EITC or something.

Its funny how there were 3 enemies introduced into the story..one for each character to kill/defeat..they also have to defeat something emotionally within themselves to defeat it..Jack has done his(kraken/facing up to accepting Liz)..Liz's is obviously Beckett and the EITC..and the EITC has it in for JACK! not Will..its just like Beckett saying "you seem to be going though alot of trouble to ensure Jack's safety" and she's like NO in her denial..because she was still in stage 2 back then..she's TOTALLY going to rescue Jack from them in movie 3 I bet you..its her elixir she will gain!

Will's is obviously Davy Jones..he may side with him for a while..but I'm betting he will defeat him and save his father..Will also has the potential to turn into an anti hero with these steps..(Robert de niro Taxi) they do something TOTALLY bad and crazy for what they think is the greater good..but you still like them by the end of it lol..they redeem themselves..

SORRY TRIPLE POST!

sorry this is a 4th post. I don't think I'm explain myself too well with why the 12 steps have started again.

when you look at Lord Of The Rings. They set out knowing it was all one story..so that entire pattern runs from start to finish..each movie did close..but it closed rather open ended...where Frodo was at a different stage each time it closed movie 1 for him ended on step 6 I would say because he just had one tough moment with allies, enemies and tests. He then looks over at mordor and prepares for the approach to the inmost cave...and he actually turns to sam..who is the one who gives him strength..he is the reason he doesn't turn back and flee IMO...

PotC1 had no intention to make a second unless it was a success..so all the 12 steps were in that movie from start to finish..and it was really about Will following them..not Liz and not Jack.. Jack was actually Will's mentor. Its only when he gets help from Jack does he actually take the first threshold and we see his character do something rather bold and different to how we first meet him (hating pirates...scared of Liz)...It seems as if Jack was Elizabeth's mentor too in that movie..as soon as Jack helps her from the water he frees her an dall of a sudden we see her start to change into her feisty pirate self..It seems as if originally, Liz was meant to be Jack's mentor in movie 1 ..but they actually totally CUT his suggestive change out of that wind change scene..they kept him mentor for some reason or another. (she's not his in movie 2/3 either because she's his elixir)

anyway..because they ended this story..fully closed..they decided to make another which is 2 parts..and the hero's steps start from scratch again because they have added in a new mentor..and I doubt there will be another in movie 3 because the 12 steps for each character have not ended yet by the time the movie has closed.

movie 2 is linked with movie 1 but movie 1 ended closed, enemy defeated..Will has his elixir... movie 2/3 there is now a new story..it ends on a cliff hanger unlike 1 and 3 new main enemies have been established one has been defeated but the other 2 are still there...and this time each character is following their own steps..Jack is no longer mentor to anyone because he is following his own..where as before Jack didn't really follow anything..you cant use that pattern with Jack over movie 1 I dont think..he has that good nature in him anyway from the very start to finish he didnt change by the end of movie1 at all really..he just made some friends lol(a little something more in liz although it was made really easy to miss). .I would say he was following some sort of steps had they left in that original wind change scene AND all the Jack/Liz ones(with the endingmeans he's learned something about her/himself)..but they didn't want to do that back then for some reason...Jack followed no ones orders but his own..he didn't listen to a mentor or anything...but he did have her on his mind by the end of movie 1..but you wouldnt think he had learned anything because of her..

Explained better here:

1) The Ordinary World. The hero is taken out of the ordinary world and is put into the Special World, in which the hero is a fish out of water.

2) The Call to Adventure. Thrust into the Special World, the hero is presented with a problem, challenge or adventure.

3) Refusal of the Call. The hero is reluctant to undertake the quest as presented. Fear of the unknown is one of mankind's greatest fears.

4) Mentor. The mentor is a Merlin-like character who meets or joins with the hero, offering advice, guidance or magical equipment.

5) Crossing the First Threshold. This is the point where the hero makes the decision to accept the quest.

6) Tests, Allies and Enemies. After crossing the first threshold, the hero begins to encounter tests, allies and enemies, all of which help to outline the rules of the Special World.

7) Approach to the Inmost Cave. This is really broken down into two parts. It is the point at which the hero comes to the most dangerous place in the Special World, usually the lair of the hero's greatest enemy. The approach is the time the hero takes to prepare, plan and deal with guards or traps. Then comes the confrontation in the most dangerous place.

8) The Ordeal. This is also called the 'black moment'. It is the point at which the hero faces the greatest challenge, and also the point at which the reader may wonder if the hero will survive.

9) Reward. This is also called seizing the elixir or seizing the sword. Once the hero survives the ordeal, it is time to celebrate and the hero receives some reward for surviving.

10) The Road Back. The hero must deal with the consequences of all that he/she has done in order to gain the reward. Often, the villain pursues the hero.

11) Resurrection. This is the second Ordeal, a time for the villain to again attack the hero.

12) Return With the Reward. The hero is able to return to the ordinary world with the reward. Sometimes the reward is not physical, but can be true love, freedom, wisdom or knowledge.

I'm wondering if Jack is at 10 actually..or is still going to hover on 10 for a while when movie 3 starts..I'm guessing there will be a new villain for Jack in movie 3...Will/Barbossa?

where do you think Liz is on this scale? I agree that I think Jack is at 9 as well

I think Liz is at number 5 ..she met the mentor then decided to go after Jack just before the movie closed

Jack may be at number 10

actually I dont know..I think its 9..LOL its confusing OMG i think its 9!! cuz will is gonna be PISSED when he comes back..he's gotta face the consequences and someone is gonna be pissed..its also gonna be Davy because Jack killed his beloved Kraken

Ah yes...so with dear Lizzie:

1) The Ordinary World. The hero is taken out of the ordinary world and is put into the Special World, in which the hero is a fish out of water.
Elizibeth is happy with Will..then all of a sudden she is placed with Jack..she's confused and scared with all of her new emotions for him flying about..

2) The Call to Adventure. Thrust into the Special World, the hero is presented with a problem, challenge or adventure.
Jack comes back for her..and is basically saying he needs her in his life, He wants her in his life to feel strong and brave.

3) Refusal of the Call. The hero is reluctant to undertake the quest as presented. Fear of the unknown is one of mankind's greatest fears.
Elizabeth is afraid to go with him..she's in denial still, she thinks she should stick with her old way of life..fear of the unknown..is fear of Jack...Jack saying Pirate to her is what prperly scares her off..he's saying she is one and he should be with her and this is what makes her finally leave IMO..she knows she wants him but is terrified to go with him.

4) Mentor. The mentor is a Merlin-like character who meets or joins with the hero, offering advice, guidance or magical equipment.
Meets with Tia..here she begins to feel guilty for refusing a man who needs her in his life..she refused the call to adventure...Tia offers her help to regain him

5) Crossing the First Threshold. This is the point where the hero makes the decision to accept the quest.
Liz accepts to rescue Jack..persue her elixir.

Ends for Liz.

Will:
1) The Ordinary World. The hero is taken out of the ordinary world and is put into the Special World, in which the hero is a fish out of water.
happy with Liz..all of a sudden he's thrown into the world of Jack again lol

2) The Call to Adventure. Thrust into the Special World, the hero is presented with a problem, challenge or adventure.
Jack asks Will to help him get the key to the chest which WILL lead him to his dad..not sure if Jack knows this or not

3) Refusal of the Call. The hero is reluctant to undertake the quest as presented. Fear of the unknown is one of mankind's greatest fears.
Will refuses to help find the key for Jack/refuses to be with his dad (although he doesnt know it) He does know his dad is alive somewhere though since movie 1 and I think that he is pushing him to the back of his mind because of Liz

4) Mentor. The mentor is a Merlin-like character who meets or joins with the hero, offering advice, guidance or magical equipment.
Helps guide will towards it/father

5) Crossing the First Threshold. This is the point where the hero makes the decision to accept the quest.
accepts to help his father..Liz is no longer his "quest."

6) Tests, Allies and Enemies. After crossing the first threshold, the hero begins to encounter tests, allies and enemies, all of which help to outline the rules of the Special World.

anyone care to help me here?

...my eyes just got crossed eye by reading all this lol
i think im the one who needs help with my eyes

LMFAO! I just got banned from KTTC..someone totally dissed me, I fought back and theys banned me!!


OMG ..someone insulted my intellegence so i fought back..and they ban me for defending myself..

hey link that thread...i wanna read....

right down the bottom of the page:

http://forums.keeptothecode.com//viewtopic.php?t=7086&start=720

I was getting a bit frustrated because lots of people seem to think I'm off my case on that forum because I'm passionate about film studies.and I hate being told I dont know anything because I studied the darn things for 3 years..the ins and outs, the workings of them..the history of hollywood..present day hollywood..the hero's 12 steps..I didnt do all that to be told with stupid little sarcastic faces..and that I need some elixir because I'm talking nonsense..

god am feeling rather bitter..I did overreact bit but I felt attacked..thats the only reason I did that..I thought Lizzie ws attacking me..

I think you're awesome, LovelyOne. You remind me of a friend I had on the Phantom board named Honeywriter that found hidden clues in that movie. I felt she and you both bring to the table a lot more than "Johnny's so hot."
To talk about Liz, I don't think it's fair to her that we're talking about the steps of a HERO and are applying them to her love interest. We aren't doing that to Jack even though we're very preoccupied with his love life. I think we need to apply the steps to her in the same way we would with anyone- her process in becoming a hero, which she is.

ok LovelyOne u can hire me to be the hitman, well uh hitgurl lol. and ill kill all those idiots from KTTC those ppl were mean when they said to lovelyone "dont call us deary nor hun cus were not 10 years old" WELL THEY ARE SURE ACTING LIKE IT THOSE BASTARDS!!! i poo poo on them!

Originally posted by willofthewisp
I think you're awesome, LovelyOne. You remind me of a friend I had on the Phantom board named Honeywriter that found hidden clues in that movie. I felt she and you both bring to the table a lot more than "Johnny's so hot."
To talk about Liz, I don't think it's fair to her that we're talking about the steps of a HERO and are applying them to her love interest. We aren't doing that to Jack even though we're very preoccupied with his love life. I think we need to apply the steps to her in the same way we would with anyone- her process in becoming a hero, which she is.

LOL ta..you know what..I think the steps her and Jack are following are to do with their love interests..even Jack he refused the call to help her because of his little fear of making her an obligation in his life.

..honestly Tia seems to be helping them both out with that instead of what the initially go to her for.as Harris said: "she has the ability to look through people into their hearts and true desires"..the mentor seems to be helping them with that elixir rather than their fake ones etc.
..even will..she sends him to the onne thing he's wanted most since he was a child.

I think Elizabeth is going to save Jack from someone possibly Beckett later on when she gets to her supreme ordeal..

the thing that gets me is how Jack faced a physical barrier to gain the elixir..and he also had to cross some emotional ones at the same time..his problem was making her an obligation in his life and he overcame that emotional barrier..

Tia seems to be helping them sort of emotionally accept one another..by crossing physical barriers too.

chikimina!! thanks hun

yeah lovelyone, i just read that forum... you didnt over-react at all. really. if anything, they are the ones constantly over-reacting but not allowing people to defend themselves. its scary. they are like, socialists.
this forums are meant to explore DEEP into the movie. if they are content to scratch the surface, thats not our problem. heck we could be way off on some of our stuff, we thats the fun of it--- exploring ALL the angles, ALL the possibilities, really getting in depth with it. and i dont know how ANYONE could logically refute the 12 steps. please. lol.

Thanks katelovespirate.. you are so right...even Ted said that was the point of the movie on KTTC they made it like that so that people will be trying to figure little things out lol.

Jack totally has his elixir(lizziebeth!)..there are 2..(one that kinda does) things that hint it

1) he gets HIS hat back once he kisses her and in that scene..it was absent from her head all of a sudden..where as she was wearing it symbolically throughout the entire movie before hand..from when she met him in tortuga to the part whre he comes back for her and she kisses him.

2) The dog( symbolizes Jack) is sitting on Jack's old thrown with a bone in his mouth as if he is a king with his prize after the credits ..he no longer has the keys (old way of life)..he's got his bone...something NEW in his life to protect and love..also a bone is what makes a dog happiest in life and it symbolizes that Liz is what makes him happiest in life..

3) The kraken itself..he was fearing facing up to it as s responsibility..and he was also fearing making Liz an obligation in life..and when the two came together he faced up to both..and basically decided to ake her an obligation in his life.... He basically allowed the kraken to swallow him with his "not so bad..hello beastie" he's ready to have Liz in his life by the time the movie ends..he's got his elixir.

what makes me laugh is what the kraken does to him when he turns round and faces up to it..IMO it explains EXACTLY how that kiss made Liz feel i..there's no nice and clean way to put it..so I'll just say it. The taste of the waffle was like an "orgy" in her mouth lol ..you can totally see how much that kiss affected her "physically"..never ONCE seen her look that physically affected after a kiss with Wiliam..the savoury and safe feast..

here's a quote from TR you might find interesting (im researching these darn writers today lol):

HERO WITH A THOUSAND FACES

Consider what sort of hero is demanded by your story genre. The DRAMATIC HERO succeeds due to his best efforts. The TRAGIC HERO fails despite his best efforts. And the COMIC HERO succeeds despite his best efforts -- usually to avoid heroism.
Rick in CASABLANCA is an example of a dramatic hero. Oedipus is the classic tragic hero, doomed from the start, no matter what he does. Bilbo Baggins of "The Hobbit" is a great comic hero, resisting the hero's call nearly to the end. (At the very end of a comedy, it's quite satisfying to let the comic hero have the same victory of the dramatic hero; another example, consider the ending of GHOSTBUSTERS.)


---Going by this quote, I reckon this ties in with Jack continuing to pull sketchy moves in 3... like trading Liz. but EVENTUALLY he WILL accept the call and hopefully succeed in EVERYTHING< including winning the girl.

I think he altready has her but he needs to return home with her..funny how its in singapore which seems to be his home..he's just gotta face up to the consequences of getting her..will..liz herself..his own emotions lol..its not just a physical elixir its an emotional one..as well as physical lol..he already took up the hero's call at the end of DMC

thanks for the quote

I think he already has her too, which is why it will be so interesting when they meet up again.
What was going on in Singapore during that time? Did the writers just pick it because it sounded exotic? Jack does have a history there, but it seems he has a history everywhere. If he didn't live here for a long time, I don't know what other significance it could have.

Hmm, Jack and Liz out in an Asian garden, maybe a little pond nearby with a bunch of lotus flowers....and them in their pirate outfits. Oh well. The sun's just starting to set, little birds and frogs are making background noise. How will they be able to resist each other?

Interesting:

According to Vogler's categories, to engage viewers, at the beginning of a film a character should be conceived as a person who lives a stable but rather problematic life. His/her existence is satisfying only in appearance, because his/her personality hides weaknesses -- sometimes in terms of values, more often, when the model is strictly respected, both in terms of the capacity of accepting reality and in terms of psychological inhibitions. The real story of a main character, then, begins when a messanger interrupts his daily routine and calls him to the adventure. If the hero answers positively, he/she enters a new dimension, assisted by an old and expert mentor: the hero leaves the ordinary, apparently well-known world, to make a journey in a special, unknown land. Here, after hard training, having overcome many trials, and having defeated his/her antagonist in a supreme ordeal, the character will attain full knowledge of himself. In this way, his/her personality will be completed; the different sides of his/her psyche will be balanced; the person will become strong enough to deal with the fatal flaw.

The more important result of the character's efforts is therefore a fresh, new glance at life. It is the attitude of feeling in harmony with the world and with people, now seen in a perspective -- perhaps eccentric but profound -- rooted in the experience of truth: the truth he has gained through his extrordinary journey. In other words, it is possible to say that the hero returns in his ordinary world empowered with "an elisir".

----------------


LIZ UNCOMFORTABLE WITH FEELINGS FOR JACK..poor Liz had the whole friggin movie stuck in that uncomfortable stage lmao..remember she wasnt called to adventure by anyone she broke out herself and Jack was on the mind from the very beginning IMO..and she was uncomfortable with it...the call to adventure was Jack coming back for her on the pearl..

I'm wondering if Jack is her mentor..although he doesn't teach her anything new really...IMO thats her ordinary world still because she's looking for will but is dissatisfied hence the fact her compass is pointing at Jack...and she's having trouble accepting it:

"his/her personality hides weaknesses -- sometimes in terms of values, more often, when the model is strictly respected, both in terms of the capacity of accepting reality and in terms of psychological inhibitions."

same goes for Jack at the start.

I think Jack is more her idol than her mentor because he doesn't really take a proactive approach in making her a pirate. He sits back and knows she has it in her. I say he's more her idol because she still believes in having a "moral center." Just because she wants the adventure and freedom of a pirate doesn't mean she wants to start killing and pillaging. Then she meets Jack and here is the kind of person she wants to be: someone adventurous and free and full of mischief, but hasn't sacrificed their morals. That's part of why she so intensely tries to make him see he's a good person, because if he's not, then no pirate is, and that would destroy her fantasy.

yeah I agree with you...Jack is like the perfect pirate for her.


when he shows it and her feelings escalate..the biotch royally freaks out..I saw it coming from the second she looked scared/angry at what the compass was telling her about how she feels towards Jack.

What I notice with this is that a "fake mentor/messenger" appears to set them off on the false journey and when they meet Tia, the real one begins.

Jack = bootstrap
Liz = Jack and the compass for Will
Will = Beckett

AHh so where is Jack at here then?..IMO its hard to tell there appears to be elements of all these steps mixed up together when Jack comes back to the pearl lol: I'm trying to decide if the black moment was where we see Jack give up on every one it felt like jack went and DIED on us..that was really depressing and then we see him arrive and its like "OMG JACK IS BACK!! look at the bravery!" thats what I call a rebirth!..Also I think will is a consequence for Jack gaining Liz as a reward...and so is the kraken returning..IMO the fear was facing Liz he faces it and he has to suffer the consequences of that too and her chaining him up kinda does that..she's not ready to be with him yet...IMO Jack's supreme ordeal was him just returning to the ship because Liz was on there the reward he wants..he faced death and blew him up..THEN it became a consequence to Jack

sacred marriage?? Liz literally ties him down and MAKES him treat her as an obligation which imo he was going to do ANYWAY but that just symbolised the sacred marriage between the two before the movie ends its like the Leia/ Hans "I love you!" "I know!"..lucasisnt too good with symbolic things lol he just states the obvious out loud.

Oh OH!!

Jack seems to gain this with the Kraken after kissing Liz like that..he's come back for her once shown bravery..she caused that bravery in him..but then he appears to want to stay but the confidence is lacking then she kissis him and its like WHOAH:

Step 9:

"Sometimes the "sword" is knowledge and experience that leads to
greater understanding and a reconciliation (squaring off) with hostile forces."

"The hero may also be reconciled with a woman. Often she is the
treasure he's come to win or rescue, and there is often a love scene
or sacred marriage at this point. Women in these stories (or men if
the hero is female) tend to be SHAPE-SHIFTERS. They appear to
change in form or age, reflecting the confusing and constantly
changing aspects of the opposite sex as seen from the hero's point
of view. The hero's supreme ordeal may grant him a better
understanding of women, leading to a reconciliation with the
opposite sex."

That's so interesting about the shape-shifting part, because Liz and Jack both did 180s in DMC. I wouldn't go so far as to say they made the change because of the other. They always had those traits, but it was the other person who brought them out. Liz couldn't really win Jack's heart until she showed him her other side as a pirate, and he couldn't really win hers until he showed her his good side.

yeah I agree with you he's like her shape shifter..they are like the other side of one another but they also reprosent themsleves if that makes sense.

I honestly dont think Jack dying in movie 2 was the black moment cuz we all know he's coming back..to me it was the moment where he basically left them all on the pearl like a right little coward..I felt like Jack had died on us the character of Jack was dead to me at that moment.. then he has his rebirth where we see thast godlike shot
its like YES Jack is BACK and he's gonna kick some ass!

Yeah, I agree that his black moment was ditching them. He never did anything that low in the first movie, but he knew he was a good person at heart. See, I think this is where we disagree because you say this is where he is made consciously aware that he's in love with Liz. I don't think so. Words can get to a person without being in love with the one that said them. Her words are echoing back; he is a good man and a chance has come to do what is right. Even if he did do it for her, he can always fool himself that he did it because it was right and he didn't want to lose the Pearl, because he does love the Pearl.
I think the conscious "Oh my gosh, I'm in love with this woman" moment comes when she chains him. They're completely alone and now he's had a taste of the passion she brings out. Psychologists say true love really exists of three components: intimacy (meaning friendship, closeness), committment, and passion. Well, Jack and Liz are certainly friends, close friends. They are committed to one another because Jack was willing to throw his life away for her (and everyone on that ship in my opinion) and Liz is willing to go to the ends of the earth looking for him. All that was needed was the passion and he got more than he bargained for with that kiss. There could be no excuses he could make for not yelling out when she chained him, no reason to smile, no reason to beg for her to kiss him again. So I don't know. I guess I'm rambling.

well IMO he protected her because he cares for her and its on a deeper level than a friendship by this point. he's made the emotional tie to her already he accepted the first threshold and he had his tests where he has to learn the rules of the special world which he does (curiosity scene, persuade me scene, Jar of dirt etc) IMO the love did come when he went back for her because of the bravery we saw..all of a sudden his compass is pointing to something and we then see him basically transform as a person when he gets back there and who is the person he first bumps into?..IMO that bravery came because he wants to protect the one he loves instead of clinging on to his own safety all the time and material possessions..the jar of dirt taught him that they aint that great..there's beter things in life..also remember what Ted said his reason was for returning to the pearl? on boxofficemojo.com He went back because he wanted to Make an obligation to someone..and its what caused Liz to do that to him at the end of DMC so it was her he went back for and she freaked out..IMO that godlike shot was the "herald" for Elizabeth calling her to be with Jack and she refused it

IMO gibbs line Abandon ship or abandon hope got to both Liz and Jack in a different way because of the different stages they are on.

IMO Jack was ready and willing to face the consequence of gaining Liz..but the fact he had to leave her was paining him.

and Liz takes it as another thing that scares her.."abandon Jack or abandon hope"

firstly he tells Gibbs to abandon ship and he says "but Jack the pearl?" then Jack says "she's only a ship mate"..this causes Liz to hesitate and say "he's right we have to head for land"..IMO here she shows a bit of fear again because Jack is just constantly showing her that his priorities have changed firstly coming back, secondly showing less care for the pearl and she knows its because of her IMO (curiosity scene)..then we get Will talking and there is a shot to establish Jack staring at Elizabeth..IMO he's just taking her in one last time before she leaves..then we get Gibb's line..look at the pain in his face as he says it..IMO that pain is because Liz is going to now leave him whilst he stays for her.

IMO he's still a bit annoyed wih his honest streak..but then when Liz becomes his..he learns to love it.

in the curiosity scene she basically said to Jack "one day you will get the chance to be a good man and you will want to gain the rewards that follow (her)". and she realises that he came back for her more than anyone, she is what gave him that boost of bravery IMO..he was considering going back anyway but looked terrified..he looks at the compass and looks surprised at what its pointing to..its telling him "GO AND GET LIZ!!" because he wants her in his life..then we see him amazingly brave but she's not really ready to accept it yet becase she she is at the reluctant hero stage...so she does the selfish thing and refuses the man who needs her in his life just so she can be safe and return to the ordinasry world...although Jack doesnt see it like that lol

Ok, I agree with all the steps that have been established and we have some truly exceptional writers and imaginers on this site, but I have one
question about "Jack needs to take his elixir home." I thought that the Pearl was his home and that's what he has been trying to get back all these years. Now, he has Lizzy and he has the Pearl before the last scene with the Kraken.

I am sorry, I just can't get this resolved in my head and I know this sounds stupid lol.

Good point. I would say that he is separated from Liz and the Pearl right now. I think we'll see the Pearl again, but I think the "bringing the elixir home" has to mean that Jack and Liz end up together and sail off into the sunset. It's more a metaphorical home, like everything is at last how it should be.

Ok, thanks I have it now.

Originally posted by calypso
Ok, I agree with all the steps that have been established and we have some truly exceptional writers and imaginers on this site, but I have one
question about "Jack needs to take his elixir home." I thought that the Pearl was his home and that's what he has been trying to get back all these years. Now, he has Lizzy and he has the Pearl before the last scene with the Kraken.

I am sorry, I just can't get this resolved in my head and I know this sounds stupid lol.
I would say he shows alot of passion towards Singapore

and Willofthewisp you are right

I really think Jack coming back to the Pearl is more of a symbol that he is finally accepting WHO HE IS.

He kept telling Liz that he was a pirate, and all evidence was against him being a good man. Now, we all know from past info that he IS a good man at heart, but he is dead convinced he is NOT a good man, and even tries to keep that persona, and make people think he IS quite a villian.

So when he is rowing away from the ship, i imagine his thought process is, I'm proving Elizabeth wrong, because I am a bad man, just a pirate...
but of course, he is lying to himself, and finally he realizes as much as he HATES to admit it, he IS a good man. And he has to accept who he is and act accordingly.

And the look Elizabeth gives Jack when everyone is loading the boat, Jack has his back to her, and she is about to walk towards him, is clear as day. "I was right. You ARE a good man. And you know what? You were right about me too..."

i know we keep re-hashing this, but i think Jack going back is more about his personal journey than it is about Elizabeth.

I think so too, Kate. If she weren't on the Pearl, I think he would have gone back to save the rest of them. He's a good guy overall and was before he met Liz, so it's not like she has him on a leash and he'll only be good for her.
That's why I don't think that's the part where he realizes how in love he is. It's the kiss. It's the aftermath that now they're alone. There is no excuse for just accepting what she's doing to him and ENJOYING it. "Pirate" will be as famous as Han Solo's famous "I know" from Empire Strikes Back.

so true. and dare i say "pirate" might be hotter than Han's amazing "I know."

i definately would say Jack is in love at this point--- or extremely close. Its all a bit more obvious with him, from hints in 2 to spoilers for 3. i think its a sure thing that Jack really, really cares for Elizabeth.

its Elizabeth i just dont know about. i would set her down as a very fiercly loyal person. i just dont know if she will ever get to the place where she can let Will go. i Just dont know. things dont seem as obvious with her. she still seems very much after Will or something. or perhaps she is just trying to cover while she figures herself out. i dont know.

Originally posted by katelovespirate
so true. and dare i say "pirate" might be hotter than Han's amazing "I know."

i definately would say Jack is in love at this point--- or extremely close. Its all a bit more obvious with him, from hints in 2 to spoilers for 3. i think its a sure thing that Jack really, really cares for Elizabeth.

its Elizabeth i just dont know about. i would set her down as a very fiercly loyal person. i just dont know if she will ever get to the place where she can let Will go. i Just dont know. things dont seem as obvious with her. she still seems very much after Will or something. or perhaps she is just trying to cover while she figures herself out. i dont know.

1) THE HERO IS INTRODUCED IN HIS ORDINARY WORLD.

Most stories take place in a special world, a world that is new and
alien to its hero. If you're going to tell a story about a fish out
of his customary element, you first have to create a contrast by
showing him in his mundane, ordinary world. In WITNESS you see both
the Amish boy and the policeman in their ordinary worlds before they
are thrust into alien worlds -- the farmboy into the city, and the
city cop into the unfamiliar countryside. In STAR WARS you see Luke
Skywalker bored to death as a farmboy before he takes on the
universe.

2) THE CALL TO ADVENTURE.

The hero is presented with a problem, challenge, or adventure.
Maybe the land is dying, as in the Arthur stories about the search
for the Holy Grail. In STAR WARS again, it's Princess Leia's
holographic message to Obi Wan Kenobi, who asks Luke to join in the
quest. In detective stories, it's the hero accepting a new case.
In romantic comedies it could be the first sight of that special --
but annoying someone the hero or heroine will be pursuing/sparring
with the remainder of the story.

(bwa hahahah..this is when Liz's feelings for Jack are really called into question after he comes back for her)

3) THE HERO IS RELUCTANT AT FIRST.

Often at this point, the hero balks at the threshold of adventure.
After all, he or she is facing the greatest of all fears -- fear of
the unknown. At this point Luke refuses Obi Wan's call to adventure,
and returns to his aunt and uncle's farmhouse, only to find they
have been barbqued by the Emperor's stormtroopers. Suddenly Luke is
no longer reluctant, and is eager to undertake the adventure. He is
motivated.

4) THE HERO IS ENCOURAGED BY THE WISE OLD MAN OR WOMAN.

By this time many stories will have introduced a Merlin-like
character who is the hero's mentor. In JAWS it's the crusty Robert
Shaw character who knows all about sharks; in the mythology of the
Mary Tyler Moore Show, it's Lou Grant. The mentor gives advice and
sometimes magical weapons. This is Obi Wan Kenobi giving Luke
Skywalker his father's light sabre.

The mentor can only go so far with the hero. Eventually the hero
must face the unknown by himself. Sometimes the wise old man is
required to give the hero a swift kick in the pants to get the
adventure going.

5) THE HERO PASSES THE FIRST THRESHOLD.

He fully enters the special world of his story for the first time.
This is the moment at which the story takes off and the adventure
gets going. The balloon goes up, the romance begins, the plane or
spaceship blasts off, the wagon train gets rolling. Dorothy sets
out on the Yellow Brick Road. The hero is now committed to his
journey... and there's no turning back.

6) THE HERO ENCOUNTERS TESTS AND HELPERS.

The hero is forced to make allies and enemies in the special world,
and to pass certain tests and challenges that are part of his
training. In STAR WARS, the cantina is the setting for the forging
of an important alliance with Han Solo, and the start of an
important enmity with Jabba The Hut. In CASABLANCA, Rick's Cafe is
the setting for the "alliances and enmities" phase, and in many
westersn it's the saloon where these relationships are established.

The tests and challenges phase is represented in STAR WARS by the
scene of Obi Wan teaching Luke about the Force, as Luke is made to
learn by fighting blindfolded. The early laser battles with the
Imperial Fighters are another test which Luke passes successfully.

(all explains what Liz is doing IMO..during the end of DMC and in AWE..actually accepting Jack comes much later..or at least it should..it did for Jack)

It's so great how these amazing adventures series draw such parallels. It would be nice if Jack and Liz get to share a passionate kiss like Leia gets to enjoy with Han after she rescues him from the carbonite.