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is it far to judge vader is slow just because he is slow in the movies? well there are many books in EU to prove that he is fast

He is far slower than he was in the PT. Is it generally slow, and the comic and EU books always have an ability of overpowering...

That's not to say he's sluggish. He's just slow by Jedi reflex standards.

yea but EU vader is the same as OT vader, its how we saw it in the movies because at that time it was slow, so is luke slow in the EU? no

well yea hes slower than most jedi, but still he is fast, thats why he "customises" his form V with form III and form IV

I HATE IT WHEN PEOPLE SAY VADER IS ONLY 1/8 OR SOMETHING OF HIS ORIGINAL SPEED, BECAUSE HE IS NOT. LOOK:


http://starwars.wikia.com/images/a/a5/DarthVaderbattlestheDarkWoman.JPG



http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Resurrection.jpg

He fights Maul, who is extremely agile.

That;s not even canon inside the EU!

Canonical fact is, Vader is slow; his injuries have made hoim so. Any EU source that makes out otherwise is incorrect.

so is luke slow canonically? then what about crimson empire? vader was fast, RODV proved that even with his injuries he was fast, not as fast as his predecessor anakin

if he is so slow then how did he carve through an army of wookies, each which could rip him apart, even in vader the ultimate guide, there was a pic of him fighting some dude using jar kai style, if he is really slow he would have died, rodv even mentioned that he fought 2 on 1 match with jedi knights

Originally posted by ESB Vader
so is luke slow canonically? then what about crimson empire? vader was fast, RODV proved that even with his injuries he was fast, not as fast as his predecessor anakin

if he is so slow then how did he carve through an army of wookies, each which could rip him apart, even in vader the ultimate guide, there was a pic of him fighting some dude using jar kai style, if he is really slow he would have died, rodv even mentioned that he fought 2 on 1 match with jedi knights

Do not question Ushgarak fool!
notworthy notworthy notworthy starwars

Luke is slow because he is only half-trained by ROTJ, really...in comparison to the PT Jedi.

Vader doesn't need to be super fast to be powerful and skilled, you know. They are different things.

well lucas already said that he made the videos slow unintentionally

Uh, since when?

TPM dvd2?, the fights made 30 years ago? the EU to help vaders speed? there you go, i am getting sick and tired of people saying vader is slow, how is he suppose to activate the shien form if he is really that slow, prove it to me, this is unfair towards vader, people judge him in the movies, and RODV PROVED he was fast

Luke, Vader, Obi-Wan, all slow. Vader: the suit. Obi-Wan: age. Luke: not enough training. None of them can do the fancy leaps and stuff, with the exception of Obi-Wan who may have learned how to use the Force to overcome age and injuries for a short time.

and? what about the EU? and the guide book called vader: the ultimate guide? which shows vader taking on a jedi who is using jar kai? if he was really that slow he would have died, and luke not enough training? hell luke mirrored vaders form V agaisnt him, and people want to call it sloppish because of the way the movie was made?

if the OT was made today the fights would have been as good as ROTS

o and age?? yoda was 900 years old, palpatine is like wtf 60-70 years old and he is still fast, like the OT fans keep saying, it was the way the movie was made, the EU HELPS vader, vader vs dark women, RODV PROVED vader was fast, clone wars vol 9 even proved vader killing 3 jedi masters in one swift stroke to each of them, in RODV vader carves through an army of wookies

Originally posted by ESB Vader
and? what about the EU? and the guide book called vader: the ultimate guide? which shows vader taking on a jedi who is using jar kai? if he was really that slow he would have died, and luke not enough training? hell luke mirrored vaders form V agaisnt him, and people want to call it sloppish because of the way the movie was made?

if the OT was made today the fights would have been as good as ROTS

o and age?? yoda was 900 years old, palpatine is like wtf 60-70 years old and he is still fast, like the OT fans keep saying, it was the way the movie was made, the EU HELPS vader, vader vs dark women, RODV PROVED vader was fast, clone wars vol 9 even proved vader killing 3 jedi masters in one swift stroke to each of them, in RODV vader carves through an army of wookies

Just because he slow doesn't mean that he can't beat a fast person. This thread is about his speed.

Luke is a natural, just like his father. With very little training, he managed to beat Vader, who overcame multiple well trained Jedi simultaneously

Yoda, Palpatine, and Dooku all used the Force to give them power over old age.

When did Clone Wars Vol. 9 come out? I really want to get it

vol 9 the 1 with vader on the cover page came out a while ago.

are you sure? dooku was 80 yrs old and still he is fast, well maybe they used the force to speed them up because they are jedi and sith, but honestly in the EU vader is fast, esp crimson empires flash back, when he fought with a double bladed vibro sword

Originally posted by ESB Vader
vol 9 the 1 with vader on the cover page came out a while ago.

are you sure? dooku was 80 yrs old and still he is fast, well maybe they used the force to speed them up because they are jedi and sith, but honestly in the EU vader is fast, esp crimson empires flash back, when he fought with a double bladed vibro sword

Oh. How many months ago? I'm gonna have to go to Borders or Barnes and Nobles and track it down!!!

Yes, but that was EU. I think we're talking about the movies. Unless I didn't read other people's posts. Which usually ticks people off pretty badly.

not so sure, but you could just goto a comic shop.

i think it would be fair to judge vader by the things he did in the EU. alot of people in the real world underrate him and underestiate him, sidious was slower than yoda and yet it was a draw, the same is with anakin and vader

Originally posted by ESB Vader
not so sure, but you could just goto a comic shop.

i think it would be fair to judge vader by the things he did in the EU. alot of people in the real world underrate him and underestiate him, sidious was slower than yoda and yet it was a draw, the same is with anakin and vader

Meh, they might be all sold out

Yeah, but EU isn't canon

I like the Dark Lord book explanations as to why he is slowed down. Every detail about his suit makes perfect sense after considering it, in contrast to the comics that have him doing all sorts of acrobatics that would be impossible in his suit. He needs the Force to pretty much walk properly because the mech legs are shit, he cant raise is arms high thereby restricting his fighting techniques, and his armor is overweighted. He's slow as hell.

That's partly when he began. He was getting used to the suit. When he fought Roan Shryne, he knew how to move about in his suit better.

True, but some of the restrictions are still there. Maybe he can use the Force to help with the armor-weight problem etc, but not with raising his arms....cant just use the Force to help there, its a physical limitation that impairs him constantly.

Dude...

Read page 59-63 in Dark Lord, Rise of Darth Vader.

vader even admits that he's clunky, and not nearly as slow as when he was still Anakin.

Again- if the EU contradicts the movies, the movies win.

Vader is slow. And Blax seems to be making out that sensible EU does not contest it anyway.

Originally posted by Blax X
Dude...

Read page 59-63 in Dark Lord, Rise of Darth Vader.

vader even admits that he's clunky, and not nearly as slow as when he was still Anakin.

Self reassurance

EU does not contradict the movies, if so leland chee would step in and so far he hasnt, point? point is that it didnt contradict

EU not canon? then that means NEC is bullsh!t, EU is canon, just that lucas doesnt care

Originally posted by ESB Vader
EU does not contradict the movies, if so leland chee would step in and so far he hasnt, point? point is that it didnt contradict

EU not canon? then that means NEC is bullsh!t, EU is canon, just that lucas doesnt care

There's actually several things Leland Chee has not directly stated are a contradiction. They are within LFL's "Holocron Database" or whatever, which is not viewable by the public. Contradictions and such are noted in there, so it's not uncommon for him not to just go out and say "Hey! Contradiciton a'hoy!".

Originally posted by Council#13
Self reassurance

I mean to say he admits that hes not nearly as fast when he was Anakin, not enarly as slow.

yes advent and he has not stated any yet, who knows. vader is slow yes but not as slow as he seemed in ANH he seemes the most releastic in ESB

Originally posted by Blax X
I mean to say he admits that hes not nearly as fast when he was Anakin, not enarly as slow.

Oh. My bad

Originally posted by ESB Vader
EU does not contradict the movies, if so leland chee would step in and so far he hasnt, point? point is that it didnt contradict

EU not canon? then that means NEC is bullsh!t, EU is canon, just that lucas doesnt care

EU is not canon in the sense the world is generally used, as pertaining to the films.

Obviously EU has its own canon, which is what the NEC is for.

You can't say 'Lucas doesn't care' implying he is wrong. When it comes to Star Wars, he can't be wrong- he is the man who sets the very definition of right and wrong in Star Wars related matters.

i would say its generally accepted that vader is slower than the average jedi/sith. that doesnt mean hes a slow fighter, or that its a serious disadvantage. hes still very powerful with the force and his ability to see things before they happen is probably better than most force users, giving him a wider window to move around in.

his movement speed might be slower than some other saber users but if he can see things before they happen, and see them before his opponent it would effetively compensate for it. just like the force upping anakins reflexes for pod racing, obi wan said hed need jedi relexes for it, knowing what he needs to do just before he needs to do it. that would explain vaders seemingly sluggish movement but his ability to defeat skilled jedi in combat.

it would explain crimson empire pretty well too, he was said to have looked like he was just toying with one of the emperors guards in training, hed still be fast for a normal human, and knowing what his oponent is thinking and how their going to attack without them being able to do the same would make them look pretty poor in comparison, even if they were slightly faster than vader. this coupled with his power and whoever hes fighting having to recoil from every swing of his saber would make him a very effective fighter.

to me this seems like the a pretty logical explaination. anakin hated the suit and talked about how hard it was to fight in in rise of vader and although he would have improved alot from when its set to when some other eu stuff is set he wouldnt have been in any way as fast as he used to be. he compensates for his slow movement by calling on the force to help him predict his enemys movements. slow is of course a reletive term when talking about any force users compaired to non force using humans.

All decent Jedi can see things before they happen, though.

Fact is, as GL tells it, all the OT combatants are not up to the standards of the PT era.

which you know is complete and utter crap. Had Alec Guiness been in a movie that was made with digital technology, he would be moving just as Dooku did. Or had they put Christopher Lee in the OT, he would have been slow as hell too. It's just GL trying to rationalize why the movies look so different due to movie technology. He said they were slow cause it was an old man vs a machine man...Dooku wasn't slow, GG wasn't slow. I tell ya, when GL shovels it, he sure gets it flying. I don't buy that "they don't practice with sabers as much." crap, but thats the BS that Lucas feeds us some we have to take it and smile...

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
which you know is complete and utter crap. Had Alec Guiness been in a movie that was made with digital technology, he would be moving just as Dooku did. Or had they put Christopher Lee in the OT, he would have been slow as hell too. It's just GL trying to rationalize why the movies look so different due to movie technology. He said they were slow cause it was an old man vs a machine man...Dooku wasn't slow, GG wasn't slow. I tell ya, when GL shovels it, he sure gets it flying. I don't buy that "they don't practice with sabers as much." crap, but thats the BS that Lucas feeds us some we have to take it and smile... This a "what if." What if there was digital, computer technological whateveritis? Star Wars would be rather different. To keep up with the chronology, he couldn't have said that "For some reason, the entire Star Wars galaxy got slower, dirtier and rougher and fell into low-defintion by the time of the OT."

The reason he came up with the "out of practise" thing was because he needed an answer for the sudden decrease in speed and power from the Force-users. This was the only feasible explanation.

Live TV Show coming in 2008 should tell.

I believe GL has changed. They can fix the OT with stunt double and face montage technique to speed up the duels and make them logical from jedi masters. Same thing from episode III. He'd probably impress us with his latest version...but when?

Yes, the TV Show should tell us. I want to see Vader as he should be portrayed, not as a clanky robot made by crappy CG three decades ago.

Who will play Vader...will McDiarmid return?

i tell ya, i hope that HC comes back as Vader...he did a great job, despite what Leo Dicaprio fanboys say...

Personally, I prefer the 'they're old/untrained/crippled' explanation than I would prefer an attempt at making the duels faster. That would so quickly kill it for me.

Originally posted by Tangible God
This a "what if." What if there was digital, computer technological whateveritis? Star Wars would be rather different. To keep up with the chronology, he couldn't have said that "For some reason, the entire Star Wars galaxy got slower, dirtier and rougher and fell into low-defintion by the time of the OT."

The reason he came up with the "out of practise" thing was because he needed an answer for the sudden decrease in speed and power from the Force-users. This was the only feasible explanation.

Pretty much, and it is a perfectly reasonable explanation also. GL always said that what happened in the story was limited by the techniques available at the time, so he had it in mind that the PT was a 'beter' time in that regard.

I really don't understand such aggressive negativity towards that as shown by Subjekt.

Originally posted by Ushgarak
Pretty much, and it is a perfectly reasonable explanation also. GL always said that what happened in the story was limited by the techniques available at the time, so he had it in mind that the PT was a 'beter' time in that regard.

I really don't understand such aggressive negativity towards that as shown by Subjekt.

I understand why its like that and why he said it, but it mainly pisses me off in the VS. forum where little fanboys think that Dooku is some kind of Sith God cause Lee had the ability to have his face put on a stunt fighter's face digitally. When the whole point is, that if their precious Dooku was filmed with the same technology that Alec was, he would look no different or faster than Alec. And people start throwing the word canon around (which i understand it unfortunately is), but seem to refuse to admit the plain and obvious truth...had the roles been reversed, or the technology been the same (in either case) Dooku would have been just as slow. Lucas can use that piss poor excuse if he wants, i mean hell, its his creation, but it boils down to the fact that Alec Guiness was slower and less mobile than Chris Lee's stunt double.

And that's the only reason i mention it, because of all the little Dooku fanboys out there.

And where do you leave Palpatine? Unlike Yoda he's human and also the oldest. I will not see it again until they do this.

what?

He's disturbed, just ignore him.

But Hell yeah, if Dooku had been in the OT, or been out of practise, he'd be just as slow and stiff as Obi-Wan was.

so its unfair to judge any1s speed in the OT

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
I understand why its like that and why he said it, but it mainly pisses me off in the VS. forum where little fanboys think that Dooku is some kind of Sith God cause Lee had the ability to have his face put on a stunt fighter's face digitally. When the whole point is, that if their precious Dooku was filmed with the same technology that Alec was, he would look no different or faster than Alec. And people start throwing the word canon around (which i understand it unfortunately is), but seem to refuse to admit the plain and obvious truth...had the roles been reversed, or the technology been the same (in either case) Dooku would have been just as slow. Lucas can use that piss poor excuse if he wants, i mean hell, its his creation, but it boils down to the fact that Alec Guiness was slower and less mobile than Chris Lee's stunt double.

And that's the only reason i mention it, because of all the little Dooku fanboys out there.

But as TG says, it does not mater how it would have been or could have been. You have to judge it by how it was, and for whatever reason... that is how it was.

how it was or how it was made, are we going to judge the way of the saber blades just because we saw how it looks in the OT compared to the PT? the EU even helps vader, yes he is slower then his counterpart but crimson empire helped vader bigtime, obviously every one refers to the EU for vader, no longer the movies

Movies override the EU.

It is very direct that Vader is slowed by his injuries. And it is also very direct that the OT combatants are not as good as the PT ones. Direct from GL himself, that.

It's a done deal, I am afraid.

proof that gl said he made the movies intentionally slow? obi wan was as slow as vader during the OT and you have to give the EU credit, so is luke by lotf still slow? because the movie has higher canon?

if so then that means the x-men movie trilogy story overwrites all other sources, comics and books is it?

Err, he didn't make them intentionally slow, he made them as he made them, which was slower than the PT, which is something he made official.

And different franchises have different rules. In Star Wars, the movies overrule everything.

yea but that was 30 years ago, at that time, no good CG no equipments for stunts, and we dont see vader fighting at his peak in the OT only in the EU we see him at his peak, his poweful force push, his force crush and how he really kills his opponents by using his sorroundings.

anyways ushgarak, who is the first darth? is it Darth revan or Darth Andeddu?

The reason WHY it is is not important, as we keep saying. The fact is, it IS like that, and GL has written that into the plot.

Vader's peak was when he was Anakin. He was never the same ater his injuries.

true but didnt the script say "obi wan countered vaders attack at lightning speed" i think rampant said something like that

at his peak as in his strongest in his injured state, not his full potential.

But what ush is saying, is that even though we all know its a BS reason and excuse, its technically canon because GL said so. You cant think of it as a bad, motion acting, body builder, restricted by the COSTUME and shoulder pads, you just have to see it as because he's a machine, he's slow...although GG was a machine and quite fast. and cars are machines and quite fast, etc...but we have to grin and bare it, unfortunately.

We'll see when the Live Action Series or some new edition of the movies are made. Vader shouldn't be said to be slow due to the technology of the movies.

The in-SW exscuse for the poor speed and action is:

Vader--serious injuries leave him in that suit, greatly reduce mobility and power.

Obi-Wan--spent the last 19 years in a cave out of practise.

Yoda--same reason.

Luke--freakin' two weeks of training.

Palpatine--we hardly saw him in action huh?

The reason GL and crew gave for these reasons during productions is because they just did not have the technology in computers or digital equipment to do it. No matter who the actor was, they just couldn't.

*bashes head against a wall until it goes through it*

It's funny, because even the EU says that Vader is slow.

veder= teh slowness

Yeah it does, Vader knwos it, hell, even Sids says that Vader got screwed in terms of his fighting ability once he got put in the suit.

Originally posted by Quinlan_Vos
We'll see when the Live Action Series or some new edition of the movies are made. Vader shouldn't be said to be slow due to the technology of the movies.

Well, he IS so said to be. That is the option GL took. They looked slow, so therefore they WERE slow, and so he gave it a plot reason.

and we will decide when the tv series comes out,
so last question, because movies ar higher canon, so that means luke is still slow by lotf am i correct?

Originally posted by Blax X
Yeah it does, Vader knwos it, hell, even Sids says that Vader got screwed in terms of his fighting ability once he got put in the suit.

true, he was suppose to be twice as powerful and thus the most poweful force user ever, and crimson empire proves his agility in the EU, not canon? NEC confirms CE is canon

But again, overridden by the movies.

Luke at the time of the films is as fast as he is in the films. Which is not that fast.

still, movies are higher canon as we all say, and you cant simply "overwrite" other canon, it would get into a debate, if CE contradicts with the movie, lucasarts good friend leland chee would have come out with a statement saying so, so at the moment, no statement = no contradiction = vader not slow

and vader the ultimate guide shows vader fightning wit ha jar kai practitioner, if he was that slow, good bye vader you die.

and so, does form V look so moronic just because it appeared in the OT? thus it being in the movie? vaders style doesnt look form v at all neither does anh obiwan looks soresu, both their styles look the same

well Lucas>leland, so that falls thru too. As much as i want Vader to be fast, it just isnt so...

the only contradiction to the movies that can be made and be higher canon is GL's word. FYI.

Originally posted by ESB Vader
still, movies are higher canon as we all say, and you cant simply "overwrite" other canon,

Yes, they can.

For example, the TPM novelization says that Maul did a backflip over the shaft when dueling one on one with Qui-Gon, this is thusly trumped by the movie and is completely disregarded. Canon material can be overwritten as you say, save for the movies which only Lucas has authority over. Another example would be SotME, which RODV and the ROTS Visual Dictionary hold precedent over in the matter of Vader using Force lightning.



This couldn't be more wrong. Leland Chee is not obligated to address every single contradiction to the public, unless asked. Things that are blatantly contradicting and any other problems, and canon are in the Holocron, which is not viewable by the public.

Just because he doesn't state it anywhere, doesn't mean it isn't there. I doubt you'd find a quote that said Vader using Force lightning in SotME was non-continuity until it was asked (aside from the fact it's obvious), so this is obviously more proof of the fact that they have everything down, but are not obligated to list every single thing.

So, Vader, is indeed, still slow.



Not really. If Vader were to use two lightsabers, would he thus be fast?

Answer: No.

Ergo, it's not viable to say his opponent was even faster. And it's not to say that Vader can't block fast swings, as I'd gauge Luke's baseball swings as fast, yet Vader was able to block them until getting plainly overpowered, that is.

yea but being slow is like wtf, you get wtf pwned, and im suprised vader because of the movies is now nothing more than a weak sith lord whos slow, only strong in the force, only thing he is good at his his mastery of form v, so i think he compensates by custamising his saber style, the way he fights compansates that,

and advent werent you the one who mentioned vaders agility in the flash back of CE? are we going to destroy everything mentioned about vader in the ultimate guide, in rodv, in CE and vs the dark woman? for the sake of the movies? then why the hell bother to write about vader? why the hell bother to help vader any way if the movies overwrite everything said about vader?

some people say "o vader is slow in the movies, EU is sh!t hes so weak"
im getting sick and tired of it so why not we make vader no stronger than an ordinary sith?

well what ever, he was slow in ANH but he was decent in TESB thus not slow, so now its ANH vs TESB

What Ush said is right. In ROTJ, he's moderately fast, probably to keep up with an angry Luke, and he couldn't manage that. Luke was using these huge swings that could easily be avoided by a faster opponent. Unless he had the Force on his side. 'Cause then anyone would've been screwed leftright

First of all, the term 'ordinary' and 'Sith' does not go together! Sith are extraordinary by default

Secondly- "yea but being slow is like wtf, you get wtf pwned".

Well, not necessarily- Windu was not a hyperfast fighter either. But... yes, Vader would be easily beaten by a PT era sabre fighter.


But thirdly, and most importantly... this idea that Vader is diminished by all this stuff is a nonsense that must be immediately stomped upon.

Vader is one of the greatest screen villains of all time. To link how decent a villain is to simply how 'powerful' he is, is almost a crime ad displays a very bad mentaility.

No matter how many powerful EU Sith you can reel off that for some reason irks you that they are more powerful than him, the fact of the matter is that Vader is still a better villain, a better personality... a better creation than any single one of them.

More power does not a great villain make.

well still vader in his suit beat 7 jedi masters in the cg books, well 4 of em, that proves one thing to me, being slow doesnt mean some one faster can kill you and yet a slow guy killed fast jedis

Billy has no internet. MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAA.

Originally posted by ESB Vader
well still vader in his suit beat 7 jedi masters in the cg books, well 4 of em, that proves one thing to me, being slow doesnt mean some one faster can kill you and yet a slow guy killed fast jedis Vader in the movies is slow. Since movies are the ultimate canon, Vader is slow, at least compared to most other sabre-wielders.

If Vader can beat said Jedi Masters outside the movies, it means one of a few things. a) It contradicts the movies and is wrong, b) Those Jedi Masters really sucked, or c) Vader has gotten slower and less powerful over the years.

Face it, Vader, by the time of the OT, is a slow-poke.

i think you need to face it, it does not contradict with the movies,

and since you say the movies are ultimate canon so i guess we are going to accept luke is still slow by lotf since it contradicts with the movies am i correct? contradictions will result in statements being made and so far NO STATEMENT has been made

o and so we are going to throw all the EU about vader in the trashbin?
go tell that to james luceno ok? tell him that what ever happened in rodv CE or what ever EU is pure bull shit, contradiction? then that means RODV, after math of ROTS and CE all does not apply to timeline?

the scripts for the ANH already said obi wan countered with lightning speed, it could not be potrayed, so what? the script for ROTS is "anakin fought with inhuman speed faster than the speed of light?"


Originally posted by Tangible God

If Vader can beat said Jedi Masters outside the movies, it means one of a few things. a) It contradicts the movies and is wrong, b) Those Jedi Masters really sucked, or c) Vader has gotten slower and less powerful over the years.




again prove that, prove they sucked, prove they contradicted with the movies, and by the way, vader is stronger than anakin in ROTS accept it, may be slower but not weaker, weaker than FPA i agree but not anakin in ROTS

Originally posted by ESB Vader
i think you need to face it, it does not contradict with the movies,

and since you say the movies are ultimate canon so i guess we are going to accept luke is still slow by lotf since it contradicts with the movies am i correct? contradictions will result in statements being made and so far NO STATEMENT has been made Luke, in the span of that many years, improved. Vader, in the span of 19 years, got worse. Movies are the ultimate canon next to GL himself. If Vader is slow in the movies, then Vader is slow in the movies. If he was fast before, it means he got slower, hence--worse.

Originally posted by ESB Vader
o and so we are going to throw all the EU about vader in the trashbin?
go tell that to james luceno ok? tell him that what ever happened in rodv CE or what ever EU is pure bull shit, contradiction? then that means RODV, after math of ROTS and CE all does not apply to timeline? If GL says Vader getting crushed by a planet kills hum, then it'd kill him. If EU says he could transport it to another dimension, then it contradicts the movies, and is discluded. Again, in the span of the 19 years, Vader could have very well decreased in speed. Actually he obviously did. Since your so vehement in saying Vader was fast before ANH, you must realize that by the time of the movies, his speed decreased substantially. Why that is, I have no idea, but it happened. The only other argument is that he was ALWAYS that slow.

Originally posted by ESB Vader
the scripts for the ANH already said obi wan countered with lightning speed, it could not be potrayed, so what? the script for ROTS is "anakin fought with inhuman speed faster than the speed of light?"





again prove that, prove they sucked, prove they contradicted with the movies, and by the way, vader is stronger than anakin in ROTS accept it, may be slower but not weaker, weaker than FPA i agree but not anakin in ROTS You want a contradiction to the movies, you already mentioned it. I never read the ROTS novelization, but if it actually said that "Anakin fought faster than the speed of light," it's wrong, since my human eyes were able to follow every move of his saber. And Obi-Wan fighting with lightning speed... that didn't look like lightning speed, that looked like well coordinated series and precise jabs, prods and swings. Besides the fact that "lightning speed" is a well used figure of speech in literature and shouldn't be interpreted literally.

Jesus tap-dancing Christ, if the movie does one thing, and other, NON-movie pieces of SW say it differently, the movie is taken as correct. Is it really that hard to accept?

Originally posted by ESB Vader
i think you need to face it, it does not contradict with the movies,

and since you say the movies are ultimate canon so i guess we are going to accept luke is still slow by lotf since it contradicts with the movies am i correct? contradictions will result in statements being made and so far NO STATEMENT has been made

Now you're just being stupid. Luke is slow in the OT. LOTF takes place long after the OT. There's a difference. The EU that Vader is in all takes place BEFORE the OT. Get your timeline straight.



What the **** are you rambling about now?



I fail to see your point here. George Lucas' word goes above the movies and script, in any case. If he says ANH Kenobi is slow, then ANH Kenobi is slow compared to ROTS Anakin.



There's a difference between 'sucked' and 'slow.'

You're just being a nuisance now, and your argument is totally biased...

yes biased because some people cannot accept the fact that vader is fast in the EU and that no statement came out there was a contradiction

and tangible god, show me the exact quote of lucas saying vader is slow by the time of the movies? show me the exact quote, no?

all of you prove to me tha lucas said vader is slow, no exact quote = i stick to the EU = im not convinced, again lucas stated in the TPM dvd that at the time of the OT when he made them, he didnt feature how the jedi really fight, and obi wan is a real jedi point moot

What GL meant in TPM commentary was that the PT jedi were at the top of their form. They were strongest they had been for ages. In the OT we visibly see on the movies they are slow. Now if GL hadnt given us a reason to why they are slow then we could pass it off as technology. But he says that it is because Vader is a machine, Kenobi is old, Yoda is out of practise etc. These our perfectly valid explanations and our canon. It is not because of bad technology that Vader is slow, but because GL said that he is a machine. EU is irrelevant because the speeds contradict and the movies will take priority because of this.

You keep stating the contradiction. "Vader is fast." No, he's not. George Lucas said so. Go find the quote yourself; we've all heard it.

You stick with EU and you're wrong. Simple as that.

so the EU is all wrong i take it? again show me the exact quote of him saying "vader is slow"

and rampant, because he is a machine? hell grievious is also a machine and he is fast

Originally posted by ESB Vader
and rampant, because he is a machine? hell grievious is also a machine and he is fast

Because in the movies GG is shown to be fast, we cant say the same for Vader. Point moot.

GG or CG, and we cant say the same for vader due to technology, common sense proves this, point moot

im waiting for the quote, lucas allowed james luceno to write about vader not being so slow

Originally posted by ESB Vader
GG or CG, and we cant say the same for vader due to technology, common sense proves this, point moot

General Greivos is what I meant. And no, it is not due to technology. GL has given it a reason and that reason is because Vader is a machine. It is no longer due to technology (or lack of) that Vader is slow but becaause of the reason GL stated.



I doubt GL gives specifics when he gives an author permission to write a book. They are meant for entertainment - nothing more. And im sure he didnt expect it to be argued to the death on a forum like this.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
General Greivos is what I meant. And no, it is not due to technology. GL has given it a reason and that reason is because Vader is a machine. It is no longer due to technology (or lack of) that Vader is slow but becaause of the reason GL stated.





i find your lack of common sense disturbing, and that reason is because 30 years ago CG did not exist, look at the alien queen in the alien trilogy, are you going to say she is slow because of no CG?

AvP proved that wrong due to CG

again i want the exact quote

Originally posted by ESB Vader
i find your lack of common sense disturbing, and that reason is because 30 years ago CG did not exist, look at the alien queen in the alien trilogy, are you going to say she is slow because of no CG?

No, 30 years ago CGI did not exist, and im sure Vader would be shown as faster if it did. But that is a 'what if' scenario. It didnt happen so forget about. We have now got Vader being slow and a perfectly reasonable explanation to go with it. Nothing is going to change that fact.

I find your completely lack of common sense and pointless accusations more disturbing than anything, ESBV.

Go find the quote yourself.

I also wish to note that Grievous is almost fully robotic, unlike Vader. All Grievous has is that little gut sack and his brain. Vader has his body minus all limbs and other things...

ESBV, Vader is my favorite character, and i thin kits a piss poor excuse, but thats what it is!! He is unfortunately slow. There's no point in arguing it. EU is not canon, MOVIES are, random authors are not canon, LUCAS is. The quote was said in a tv spot where he was talking about TPM, and why those fights were "better". No ones going to take the time to fetch it for you. Just accept it as i have. It is useless..to resist, ESBV. All you do, is keep repeating yourself and points that other people state in a rhetorical sense. Vader, as far as canon is considered, is slower than the PT era. Maybe not slow in the terms of what we think is slow, but as far as Jedi/Sith combatants are concerned, he's slow.

But you're right, speed does NOT equal how tough you are. Slow does not equal weak, or pwnable. Fast does not equal powerful or mean you're always going to win. Vader is still badass.

Originally posted by ESB Vader
i find your lack of common sense disturbing, and that reason is because 30 years ago CG did not exist, look at the alien queen in the alien trilogy, are you going to say she is slow because of no CG?

AvP proved that wrong due to CG

again i want the exact quote God damn it... we know that Vader was only slow because of the lack of tecnology. We KNOW!

GL needed a reason as to why he was slow. The movies are supposed to flow into one another, he can't have half being uber fast and the rest being uber slow for no apparent reason. He had to have reasons as to why Vader and co. slowed down.

F*ck.

captain rex, since you know the quote say it, i want to see the quote, why should i go and find it if it doesnt exist? you people said gl stated his reason, iwant to hear it, is it so difficult to ask?

I don't know it word for word, but the basic summary of the quote has been repeated constantly for the past five pages of this thread.

Vader is slower than the PT Jedi due to the fact that he is crippled and is in a mobile iron lung that he can barely move in anyways.

yes i agree rex he did get slower due to his suit and his legs, but i dont think he is as slow as he is in ANH, in TESB and ROTJ he was decent, especially in TESB he was calm and graceful, he isnt that slow, it only looked slow because of the PT, when the OT first came out, anh esb and rotj looked fast, but now the pt is faster, agreeble?

if yes then i will stop rambling

Yes, of course the duels in ESB and ROTJ are faster/better-choreographed than the ANH duel, and the PT duels are faster than that.

However, canonically, Vader is still slower from the current standpoint. Not unskilled. Not weak. Just slow.

yes i agree to that rex, i was trying to say vader is not as slow as he was in ANH, TESB proved that,

I don't believe GL and I'm done with SW for the time being.

Well, believing GL or otherwise is irrelevant; his word is law.

And the fight in ANH was a very different fight- a fight between two Masters, neither in condition to be wildly physical any more. Similarly, Windu fighting Palpatine was a very different affair from, say, the Maul fight. Styles chanage.

But Vader is undeniably slow; the evidence is on-screen for all to se, and the EU is overridden. ESB Vader, I refer you to the canon threads noted at the top of the film sections, and ask that you respect the policy of this board. We follow Lucasfilm's own direction on canon policy, which is that the films take precedence over all.

slow? in TESB he was decent enough to be considered average.
and still we have to give credit to the EU of vader, we CANNOT ignore that, so, does the movie effect what vader does outside the imagination of lucas like in the EU? gl cant do anything to vader in the EU, its outside the dimensions of lucas, only a hard statement made by him can crush what ever has been made in the EU which apparantly did not happen since he allowed vader the ultimate guide and RODV to be written about vader not being so slow.

i dont deny him being slow, but in TESB the fight was quite similar to windu vs palpatine, they werent fightning with brutality, those two fights fought with precide accuracy and balanced between strength, between speed, between agility which vader lacked.

my point to every one is, because you are slow, doesnt mean you are weak or will lose, vader there proved that to us in the EU, he did it as he was in the movies, being slower than his predessor.

my message is to those who think vader is weak, that vaders speed make him weak, that message is, he is stronger than alot of other sith lords, his personality, his badassnes, his patience, because of his personality id put him above every other sith lord


and ok slow to you all but slow to GL? i think not since of what he wrote in the scripts, slow to me? no, i think its decent,

Holy sh!t ESBV, did you even read my last post? He is not slow per se, just slow compared to the Jedi of the PT era. Seriously, just drop it. You will not win here. There's no point in arguing. And if you want the quote its something very similar to this:

"Well you have to understand that during the time of TPM, all the Jedi practiced their saber dueling. They were constantly training, whereas in the OT, nobody kept up with it. There was essentially no one to fight with. So when it came to the OB1 and Vader fight, it was basically an old man fighting a machine man. So thats why the fights in the TPM are faster and more flashy. I wanted to show how the Jedi used to fight."

Now thats not an exact quote mind you, but close and gets the same point across. He's sitting there with a vader figure on his left and a TounToun(spelling?) on his right. If you want to see it THAT bad, then goddamn it go to google and type in George Lucas interviews and you're bound to find it.

ESBV, you are stretching credibility to the limit if you watch the OT fights and say they are as fast as the PT ones. That is simply not an option.

There is no arguing this. There seriously is not. Movies override EU. Movies make out that the OT combatants are, in their various ways, not up to PT standards. Vader is clearly shown as slow, with nothing approaching his former athleticism.

And there does not need to be any specific statement for the EU to be rendered wring. vader is clearly seen as slow, and said by GL to be less competent than duellists of the PT era. Anything in the EU that onctradicts that is therefore wrong.

That is not an opinion. It is fact. That is how canon policy works.

You have to accept that here.

He's not going to.

correct, i wont accept the fact that the EU of vader is going to waste, the story, everything that there was to be about vader, so are you saying ONLY the movie vader is canon? and that quote subjekt? i believe its a truck load of sh!t to cover up for the mistakes he did,

and did GL say the EU? no he didnt, he cant control the EU, only certein words can

actually when it comes to "Star Wars" he can control it all, or the person will find themselves with a hefty lawsuit on their hands. no one BUT Lucas owns the rights to Star Wars, Skywalker, DArth Vader etc...believe it or not, he approves every storyline that comes out and only demands its not too far away from his vision. He gives more leniency towards eras that he has not covered yet, but anything HE says, or does, is the final and absolute word. No one can "out canon" GL...thats just idiotic beyond belief to even entertain that thought.

and he didnt say vader was slow, period, he gave leniency to the EU about vader, prove that he didnt

already for the last time i will say, he knows how to fight period, he is not slow, period, slower than most jedis period, still powerful, period and last but not least, TESB proved how strong he is, PERIOD

PERIOD..your dumbass obviously read any of my posts PERIOD, you have a problem excepting the truth PERIOD. He DID say that they are slow PERIOD. you typing "PERIOD every other word doesn't make anyone listen to you more or take you more serious PERIOD. If you want to hear the quote, go find it PERIOD. You are incredibly hard headed and ignorant for a 16 year old PERIOD. I was trying to side with before but explain why things aren't the way they are supposed to be, but you wont listen PERIOD.





STFU PERIOD!!!

correct! i wont listen, i get sick of people judging vader by his speed.
and i apologise if i was being a dick, i am just pissed no one is giving credit to the EU about vadern

no one said that at all. We know in the EU he's faster, we know in the EU that they make him look more badass....in the EU. As far as the movies are concerned, which is the highest type of canon excet for what GL says, he is slower than PT era fighters. No one judged him on his speed. Quite the contrary on Ush's part. He said he's still the ultimate villian. As I said before, its not that Vader is slow, its that he's slower than he was as Anakin and in comparison to fighters in the PT. Does that mean that they can all beat him? No, of course not. You think Lucas' kid from ROTS coan beat him just cause he's faster, Hell no. Speed isnt what makes you tough. If that were the case, then Jabba wouldn't be the crime lord, someone faster would be...see what im saying? No one doubts he's faster in the EU, unfortunately, thats not canon if it contradicts the movies. Watch ANH with the commentary on and see if GL mentions it there. But he has said that they are slow due to being old and a machine man, ONLY so he can give an "in universe" explanation, rather than saying due to filming technology. If he said that, then assholes would say, "well you fixed other parts, why not that?" Which he would have to spend alot of money and time, just to mess it up worse.

Do you get what im saying?

It'd be awesome if Vader was as fast as PT Anakin, same goes for Obi-Wan, but they're not. Sad as that is, it's fact, it's canon. Some may not like it or agree with it, but tough. I don't like the fact that Bush is president but me b*tching about him won't make it not true.

Vader remains one of the top badasses of movie history, his speed in a saber duel is irrelevant to that rank.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
no one said that at all. We know in the EU he's faster, we know in the EU that they make him look more badass....in the EU. As far as the movies are concerned, which is the highest type of canon excet for what GL says, he is slower than PT era fighters. No one judged him on his speed. Quite the contrary on Ush's part. He said he's still the ultimate villian. As I said before, its not that Vader is slow, its that he's slower than he was as Anakin and in comparison to fighters in the PT. Does that mean that they can all beat him? No, of course not. You think Lucas' kid from ROTS coan beat him just cause he's faster, Hell no. Speed isnt what makes you tough. If that were the case, then Jabba wouldn't be the crime lord, someone faster would be...see what im saying? No one doubts he's faster in the EU, unfortunately, thats not canon if it contradicts the movies. Watch ANH with the commentary on and see if GL mentions it there. But he has said that they are slow due to being old and a machine man, ONLY so he can give an "in universe" explanation, rather than saying due to filming technology. If he said that, then assholes would say, "well you fixed other parts, why not that?" Which he would have to spend alot of money and time, just to mess it up worse.



Do you get what im saying?

yes i get it, im sorry any ways, i apologise to every one for my ramblings and ignorance

honestly i was rambling because i looked at it the wrong way

its all good...

Vader needs no speed, he has brute strength. I also think in the rise of darth vader it says his suit is built shitty. His suit catches on shit and everything. Also he kills lots of jedi over the decades and he does not need "speed" to do it. Also he kind of seems depressed the whole time, after padme dies, and he realsies the Dark Side is not everything he thought itwas meant to be.

Originally posted by San'Doria
so the EU is all wrong i take it? again show me the exact quote of him saying "vader is slow"

If you want GL's quote on Vader and Obi Wan's speed and abilities in the OT, simply pop in your ANH DVD, turn the commentary on, and select the Vader/Obi Wan fight scene. I think he pretty much sums it all up there.

And that compares to TESB when he is much faster?

It's GLs word, not mine.

Its what we see when we compare all the movies in the OT

oh shit, please dont start this thread back up again....

im not, but i do have evidence to back me up this time but for every1s sake i wont say anything

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
oh shit, please dont start this thread back up again....

My fault. Sorry. Just thought he might concede if he actually got that quote. Obviously that was a pipe dream.

lol...no its all good. He just wont let it go....just saving 10 more pages of repeating ourselves...haha.

um can i say a few things if allowed?

dude im not your master, you can say whatever you want.

movies higher canon correct? didnt we see boba die in the movies? and he comes back in DE?

samething with vader

i mean like we assume boba dies after we see him fall into the sarlaccs mouth right? We also are assuming that vader is slow in ANH

anyways thats all, im not gonna argue and i dont want to be called a troll and get banned

Boba IS dead in the movies.

Remember, the EU is a separate continuity, as GL has also made clear.

Did Lucas actually claim that Boba died, because otherwise technically we never see him die, just fall into the Sarlacc, and the EU doesn't contradict this.

yes he did say that Boba is dead. I believe in the ROTJ SE commentary.

Oh right, well there you go.

lets let this thread die anyways.

Curious is EU vader considered better than OT vader? cuz in the EU he pulls out alot of sh!t

Yeah he is.

In the movies we see slow, asthmatic, slightly sentimental Vader (Rotj).

In the books we the ruthless, kill 7 Jedi Masters by himself, Vader.

And not to forget he ripped apart the blast door leading to the 7 jedi masters, tore metal from metal

The true reason why Darth Vader is slower in the Classic Trilogy compared to the Prequel Trilogy is because of Vader's rebuilt body armor, helmet and mask weigh alot. Vader was critically wounded from Obi-Wan in Revenge of the Sith on Mustafar. You need to remember Vader almost died on Mustafar. His lungs were damged after being set on fire. Cut limb from limb from leg to right arm. Vader can't run or use force speed in the Classic Trilogy because if he does it would kill him number 1, because of his chest plate and breathing apperatus keeps him alive. Number 2, His cybernetic suit carries alot of weight. Vader can't do flips or run very fast with 200 pounds of metal and implants built in his body.

Originally posted by JediKatarn1
The true reason why Darth Vader is slower in the Classic Trilogy compared to the Prequel Trilogy is because of Vader's rebuilt body armor, helmet and mask weigh alot. Vader was critically wounded from Obi-Wan in Revenge of the Sith on Mustafar. You need to remember Vader almost died on Mustafar. His lungs were damged after being set on fire. Cut limb from limb from leg to right arm. Vader can't run or use force speed in the Classic Trilogy because if he does it would kill him number 1, because of his chest plate and breathing apperatus keeps him alive. Number 2, His cybernetic suit carries alot of weight. Vader can't do flips or run very fast with 200 pounds of metal and implants built in his body.

Actually vader has demonstrated to be speedy in the EU and from what gideon has said which he read from leland chee. EU speeds do not contradict movie speeds.


Btw thanks for bumping a long dead thread

You are quite persistent, did you know that?

I'm sorry but why are people calling Vader and Luke slow? Despite the fact that they actually move about as fast as Mace and Palpatine did.

frX00n3gngU

Compare the two yourself.

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Heck the only real reason people consider Vader and Luke slow is because they didn't do all those pointless flips and turns.

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The two even move faster in Episode VI.

yea look at the first video, they're so fast the sound cant even keep up!!

Vader is slow because of the weight of his body suit, remember he was rebuilt in ROTS with metal implants and cybernetic bionic parts. The weight of his body suit procrastinates his movement.

Originally posted by JediKatarn1
Vader is slow because of the weight of his body suit, remember he was rebuilt in ROTS with metal implants and cybernetic bionic parts. The weight of his body suit procrastinates his movement. Yes, we're Star Wars nerds, I think we all know that Vader is more "machine now than man."

Vader is no way slow...

Originally posted by kamhal
You are quite persistent, did you know that? I sure am

Originally posted by JediKatarn1
Vader is slow because of the weight of his body suit, remember he was rebuilt in ROTS with metal implants and cybernetic bionic parts. The weight of his body suit procrastinates his movement.

Wasn't GG like that too? Hmmm. Also his legs, ya know the body parts that support weight, are mechanical as well. Add in his force abilities which aid in speed, strength, and agility, and Vader can move around with the best of them.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
and Vader can move around with the best of them.

Yea, he is known across the universe as a great dancer, he is especially good at the robot.

Originally posted by JediKatarn1
Vader is slow because of the weight of his body suit, remember he was rebuilt in ROTS with metal implants and cybernetic bionic parts. The weight of his body suit procrastinates his movement.



This is true.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Yea, he is known across the universe as a great dancer, he is especially good at the robot.
That would have been so much more appreciated if it was actually funny.

Oh man, after watching all three of those videos....

I think I am going to watch all six of them again for the billionth time...such good movies.