RAVEN vs. JEAN GREY

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psy_blade
Magic vs. Psychic
no phoenix

Ext@nt
Raven, Soulself tears jean a new one.

LordKaos
Jean Grey is a very accomplished astral fighter, the soul and the astral form are synonymous, I doubt it will be that easy. Her telepathy has been shown to be very effective against magical/supernatural beings like Nightmare, Rutai, The Goblyn Queen, and Ogun.

Ext@nt
Have you seen what Raven's fully unleashed soulself can do?

Brian Oswald
Originally posted by Ext@nt
Have you seen what Raven's fully unleashed soulself can do?
Im curious. What can it do?

Ext@nt
Well it tears your soul apart,
It can send you into another deminson
It destoryed Trigon, a very powerful demon.

Brian Oswald
Originally posted by Ext@nt
Well it tears your soul apart,
It can send you into another deminson
It destoryed Trigon, a very powerful demon.
Well I guess since its magic there isint much Jean can do to defend herself

ddsmrt
Raven takes this she is a more skillful astral fighter and ruthless. Normal Jean is to weak and isn't a well accomplished telepath nor telekinetic.

What If...
Jean Grey without the PF doesn't really work.

Marvel Girl was the only Jean we knew without the PF, and basically her training was lifting up a 50 lb weight with tk.

LordKaos
This is merely Jean Grey without channeling Phoenix, she is a very accomplished telekinetic/telepath, the soulself is still an astral projection a purely psychic construct, and can be dealt with by telepathic energy. There is a fine line between psionic and mystical energy, a powerful psi can do just about anything a magic user can do, through sheer force of will. And I thought it was the collective souls of Azar that ultimately defeated Trigon. Jean also has the advantage of telekinesis which she can use, both being psi talents their powers work at about the same speed, but Raven is only an empath, while Jean is the second most powerful telepath of her world.

LordKaos
In the very first issue of Xmen Jean easily levitated Beast, spun him around and dropped him, she also (in the same issue) telekinetically plucked missiles from the air and directed then into the sea.

Ext@nt
Ravens Soulself destoryed one of the most powerfull demons in the DCU.

LordKaos
In the animated series not the comic.

bigbran
Raven wins.

Ext@nt
Yes in the comic, In the first few issues of New Teen Titans, Where do you think the TV show got it from?

Here's a little hint, before you shoot your mouth off try reading the comics to make sure you dont sitck your foot in it.

LordKaos
Trigon was banished not destroyed then he came back and the souls of Azar channeled their power through Raven and that is how he was destroyed. If the soulself is all Raven has to offer then she hardly stands a chance against a telekinetic telepath of the highest order. (I had to edit because of my first sentence forgive my ignorant use of the english language if in fact anybody read before the edit)

Ext@nt
Read up on what her soulself can do.

LordKaos
only if you read up on what Jean can do, and since we're all reading there is no such thing as Jean without Phoenix. Being a telepath Jean could sense Ravens intent and crush her telekintically before she sends out that soulself, if Ravens soulself surives and goes on to kill Jean well, we all know what happened the first time Jean died, Phoenix was born.

Ext@nt
Oh god you just cant keep the Phoenix Fanboys out can you? Raven has spells that are mroe then capable of taking jean out as often as she comes back. Back when they fought she almost went toe to to and she wasnt even half as experianced at magic as she is now.

Get over the Phoenix Fanlove already.

LordKaos
Call me what you want, there is only one true Phoenix fanboy on this forum and I am not it, what there seems to be more than anything else are Phoenix anti-fanboys, there is not a spell in creation that can keep the Phoenix from rising or resurrecting Jean and if there is Jean can make her forget it just as fast as she can slam her ass around with telekinesis.

Ext@nt
lol Raven also posses strong TK through magic.

As I said as a novice Raven went toe to toe with Dark Phoenix in a cross over comic.

Now she could deal with her. all she has to do is kill the avatar and the phoenix goes away.

At least we face logic. Phoenix Fan boys seem to think she can do anything. She was killed by Wolverines claws in Exiles 1-3. Raven can do worse.

LordKaos
We're not talking about Dark Phoenix, we're talking about Jean Grey, Dark Phoenix is a uncalculating killer who reacts without thinking, we're talking about Jean Grey who covers the fact that she is just a calculating and cold as any villain with what she learned from Xavier. At the onset of any battle Jean scans her enemy because she truly believes knowledge is power, The Phoenix force that is one with Jean can neutralize the effects of magic as shown at the end of Inferno. Raven can accomplish quasi-telekinetic feats with her magic, but is it stronger than Jean, whom without the Phoenix can keep Magnetos base held aloft through an entire battle between the X-men and the Acolytes?

Ext@nt
Yes read up on Raven, you cant actually kill her. She just becomes a spirit and then Jean has no way of touching her. Read up on Raven.

I've read up on your Fanlove, the Phoenix. Raven went toe to toe with her as Dark Phoenix, She can handle Jean the less powered version.

When did you join are you GS?

LordKaos
spirits souls astral forms are all the same a telepath can "touch" them! Jean comes back physically, so she wins if this is a contest of who has the best resurrection.

LordKaos
no i am not GS, and if I were that would mean he suffers from multiple personality disorder as we have debated before.

Ext@nt
No they arent the same and if raven can stand up to Dark Phoenix she can whip around the less powered version.

Read up GS jr.

SpunkySmurph
1. Crossovers should not even be considered canonn
2. Calling someone GS based on their knowledge of Phoenix isn't exactly an insult...
3. Raven goes down.

LordKaos
They are the same, read up on your metaphysics from which all these terms spring from, actually the spirit is the part of you that is riddled with your mortal memories, the soul is the part of you the reconnects with the divine, astral is a more new age term that is used universally to identify either of the former, either way telepaths in this world and next have claimed the ability to communicate and manipulate both. The less powered version uses more intellect and does not rely on brute strength, the same reason why Spiderman can defeat Juggernaut.

LordKaos
Thanks you really hammered that smurph on the smurph. thumb up happy

Ext@nt
In Exiles Wolverine killed her with his claws. Im sure raven can do it.

The phoenix creature is powerfull, but its avatar is vulnerable.

You Phoenix Fanboys need to get over the fact that the bird is not the supreme power you think it is.

bigbran
Originally posted by Ext@nt
In Exiles Wolverine killed her with his claws. Im sure raven can do it.

The phoenix creature is powerfull, but its avatar is vulnerable.

You Phoenix Fanboys need to get over the fact that the bird is not the supreme power you think it is. It's not the force!

It's just the regular Jean Grey.

Ext@nt
Then Raven owns her 10/10

LordKaos
Nobody has argued the fact that the avatar is mortal, but she'll be back, when she feels like it. The titans killed evil Raven! Please stop using Dark Phoenix as your only means of explaining Phoenix she was way more powerful before she let her dark side take over. It was assumed that Dark Phoenix could destroy the universe (she only did it in a what if) good Phoenix as well as White Crown Phoenix (in the form of Jean Grey) preserved all existence with a lot of effort in as the latter and next to no effort in the former.

bigbran
Originally posted by LordKaos
Nobody has argued the fact that the avatar is mortal, but she'll be back, when she feels like it. The titans killed evil Raven! Please stop using Dark Phoenix as your only means of explaining Phoenix she was way more powerful before she let her dark side take over. It was assumed that Dark Phoenix could destroy the universe (she only did it in a what if) good Phoenix as well as White Crown Phoenix (in the form of Jean Grey) preserved all existence with a lot of effort in as the latter and next to no effort in the former. Originally posted by psy_blade
Magic vs. Psychic
no phoenix
OWNED!!!

LordKaos
The whole point is, if the regular Jean dies she comes back as Phoenix, which is her lifeforce. That being said nobody has given one valid reason as to why the regular Jean would get owned.

Ext@nt
Originally posted by bigbran
OWNED!!!

Phoenix was killed by Wolverine, Xorn, and a laser turret on the moon.

I dont care how many times she comes back, Raven will keep killing the avatars.

Phoenix Fanboyism should be considered a valid illness.

LordKaos
Magic users have to study for years to accomplish psi feats, there are psi talents who can do what magic users can do with their thoughts alone.

bigbran
Originally posted by LordKaos
The whole point is, if the regular Jean dies she comes back as Phoenix, which is her lifeforce. That being said nobody has given one valid reason as to why the regular Jean would get owned. If someone dies, that means they lose, if she comes back is irrelevent. Same with a ko.


You do realize that when Jean gets punked by regular mutants, that Raven is out fighting people that are way over her?

LordKaos
Those same things can kill Raven as well.

Ext@nt
Raven has stood up to people way more powerful then the ones who kill your fanboy obssesion.

LordKaos
So Jean fighting beings like Nightmare, Rutai, Apocalypse, Onslaught, Neo, Cassandra Nova is not way over her, the only one that beat her was Onslaught and he didn't beat her so much as try to get her to join him.

bigbran
Originally posted by LordKaos
Those same things can kill Raven as well. What? If she dies, that counts as a win for Raven.

LordKaos
How can Raven kill her? the whole coming back thing was brought by the Raven fan, first get Raven to kill her, he said that Raven's soulself would survive anything Jean could do, Jeans Phoenix self can survive anything anybody can do

UniOmni
They're fanboys because you're not intelligent enough to debate with skill??

Kinda like everyone else on the playground is stupid, cuz they see things differently??

You're not very smart, and add nothing to this debate other than anger and unfounded irrationality.

Go away.

Ext@nt
Originally posted by LordKaos
So Jean fighting beings like Nightmare, Rutai, Apocalypse, Onslaught, Neo, Cassandra Nova is not way over her, the only one that beat her was Onslaught and he didn't beat her so much as try to get her to join him.

Actualy he crushed her in his hand. And I resort to insults cause we;ve tried for months to use logic and scans to prove this stuff and the fanboys just can't accept it.

bigbran
Originally posted by LordKaos
How can Raven kill her? the whole coming back thing was brought by the Raven fan, first get Raven to kill her, he said that Raven's soulself would survive anything Jean could do, Jeans Phoenix self can survive anything anybody can do THERE IS NO PHOENIX IN THIS THREAD!!!

LordKaos
It was Onslaught who created the imagery of the Phoenix, so that he could find out why she was the template for a cosmic force, he was baiting her, because as the darkest part of Xavier he knew that the only being in the universe that could see what he really was, was Jean. He came to Jean because he knew she was the only being Xaiver knew that had tapped an inexhaustible power source she refused to show him because she wanted to be Jean grey and nothing more, that's why she was muffled when he finally revealed himself. Jean knew the moment she touched Cains memories that Onslaught was Xaiver, she was a threat. He knew she was a threat to begin with that's why she was the first one to know that he existed when she and Gambit escaped the OZT compound. Xaiver has know for years that Jean was the most powerful mutant he had ever encountered, he loved her for it because he thought he was and that he had finally met his equal, but it turned out his equal was a god compared to him.

Ext@nt
Still the phoenix has been defeated by people Raven could beat such as Wolverine and Xorn.

LordKaos
Wolverine killing Jean was needed so that both of them could survive the sun, Xorn killing Jean was so that she could save the future, Phoenix commiting suicide on the moon was to redeem Jean and allow her egg to incubate on the moon to save the same future that she needed Xorn to kill her for. Raven is not that complicated she was born to bring hell on earth, Jean was born to keep hell from happening to all creation.

LordKaos
If there is a Jean there is a Phoenix, her ultimate potenial as a Omega.

Ext@nt
In exiles 1-3 Wolverine killed a fully powered phoenix with his claws.

get it through your thick skull, the physical manifestation of the phoenix is vulnerable to damage.

Raven can effect the mind and soul. Jean only the mind. Canon or not Raven has shown she can handle the phoenix pretty well when she was a novice. The current Raven is even more powerful and would take her.

You need some help getting over your fanboyism.

Draco69
Originally posted by LordKaos
If there is a Jean there is a Phoenix, her ultimate potenial as a Omega.

The threadstarter says "NO PHOENIX" so that means we're dealing with Pre-Morrison retcon Jean Grey.

Which means anything that Jean Grey did in the 90s and 80s when not in a Phoenix outfit is viable.

Morrison just retconned the whole shctick so that Jean Grey was Phoenix all the time...

Ext@nt
Raven Soulself surrounds her she cant concentrate to use her powers and the truama of it is too much for her and she passes out or dies.

LordKaos
Happy Dance smile reading rock thumb up yes Draco

LordKaos
Jean's powers have nothing to do with her living or dying, she has been depowered plenty. Can Raven get to her psionically? Let us forget the Phoenix and focus on the unlimited potential Jean has, how she was pushed beyond what even Xaiver thought was possible to accomplish godlike feats, she used Phoenix imagery because that's as close to god she has gotten.

Ext@nt
She is not even close to god, thats what makes people hate you phoenix fanboys. You way over estimate her. IF a novie Raven can go toe to toe with Dark Phoenix, then an experianced Raven can take out a less powerful version.

What If...
How many more times are you going to mention a "phoenix fanboy obsession"?

I kind of stopped counting at 7.



LOL?

Ext@nt
Hey dont blame me for the way the fanboys act.

What If...
You make no sense.

Ext@nt
No I simply dont agree with you,

Raven stood toe to to with jean as a fully powered Dark Phoenix, She can take normal Jean now that shes more experianced and more powerful after her rebirth by Brother Blood.

manorastroman
yeah, extant basically sucks really bad. his obsession with phoenix is far, far more consuming than any of the "fanboys" that are apparently everywhere he goes.

the guy always tells people to read up on comics, but constantly gives misinformation. like the exiles 1-3? what, it took three issues for wolverine to stab jean OFF PANEL? he's also claimed that ion could remake the multiverse, that ion has the full starheart, that in the phalanx issues of x-men, the x-men take down the shi'ar empire, and to top it all off continues to blindly ignore any countering of his "points".

lordkaos did an excellent job with this post:

Originally posted by LordKaos
Wolverine killing Jean was needed so that both of them could survive the sun, Xorn killing Jean was so that she could save the future, Phoenix commiting suicide on the moon was to redeem Jean and allow her egg to incubate on the moon to save the same future that she needed Xorn to kill her for.

now that i have that off my chest, jean grey lifted fifty tons telekinetically without the phoenix. that's certainly enough to crush raven into powder.

Ext@nt
Actually he stabbed her ON PANEL and at the height of her power as Dark Phoenix.

My point you fanboys seem to miss is that her physical form is vulnerable to normal attacks. You ignore this. Her soul is vulnerable to attacks as well, and she has to concentrate to use her powers. When Ravens soulself is around her she is tormented and cannot concentrate and cant use her powers.

Just because ot flies in the face of your fanboy love doesnt mean its not true.

Raven almost beat her as Dark Phoenix when Raven was less powerfull and less experianced. Now she is more powerfull and more experianced and she can take a phoenix or non-phoenix Jean as easily as any beam weapon of wolverine ever has.

Case closed.

ddsmrt
Raven is a telepath sort of her powers are empathy and she can chage people emotions thoughts and feelings with easy. So that is why I said she is a better telepath because basicly see is a telepath. Plus raven in comics easily lifted cars buses and trucks while jean struggled with weights.

Cosmic Flame
Wow. There's some serious misinformation out there. Posters seem to forget that Jean has repeatedly breached "unbreachable" psi defenses. She's dragged people immune to TP to the astral plane. She's adept at using TP and TK simultaneously. Her TK shields haven't been breached, and they've been shown to deflect energy.

As far as crossovers are concerned, neither Supes nor Flash could touch non-Phoenix Jean. Dark Phoenix handed Dormammu his ass, and I'm sure that he would destroy Raven. But it doesn't really matter, because crossovers aren't canon.

And why is it that people think that just because some characters use magic they are invincible? All superhero teams have fought magical beings before, and the vast majority may have one person on their team, if that, who uses magic. Yet they still come out victorious, while many a magic user has been felled by fists. It's not that cut and dry.

cartman23
RAVEN!!!!!!!!!!!

Mr Master
Raven wins.

ddsmrt
Non phoenix jean has never broken through psi defenses she could barely conrtol minds of those who psi defenses weren't that high. Jean hasn't really created that many tk sheilds because her tk was just powerful. Plus her tk sheild was broken by jugg, psylocky(ninja psyhic w/ blade), and emma frost force her to lower her tk sheilds mentally. Jean was a weak telekinetic and and even worst telepath that is why writers gave her phoenix to try to make her more powerful and popular. Seriously who liked a telepath who would faint after controlling someones mind and somethat would faint after trying to stopp a car from hitting a little girl( and rogue had to stop the car in the end). Jean w/o phoenix is crap don't mix her up with phoenix jean.

psy_blade
no phoenix.

LordKaos
Why when we are forced to have a Jean with no Phoenix people automatically go for the Jean before Phoenix, there are plenty of Jean incarnations without Phoenix, to pick the Jean before Phoenix is almost like picking Phoenix since in her first incarnation Phoenix saved Jeans life, Phoenix has never shown itself to her after that up until the very end of her mortal existence in the marvel universe. Post-Phoenix Jean is a force to be reckoned with, she is a very powerful and skilled telepath/telekinetic.

Ext@nt
Originally posted by LordKaos
Why when we are forced to have a Jean with no Phoenix people automatically go for the Jean before Phoenix, there are plenty of Jean incarnations without Phoenix, to pick the Jean before Phoenix is almost like picking Phoenix since in her first incarnation Phoenix saved Jeans life, Phoenix has never shown itself to her after that up until the very end of her mortal existence in the marvel universe. Post-Phoenix Jean is a force to be reckoned with, she is a very powerful and skilled telepath/telekinetic.

Not as much as Raven, She unleashes her soulself and Jean would crumble.

LordKaos
so you say, the only thing you have to offer is a non-canon example of this and I'm still not buying it. Jean has exorcised Ogun and Apocalypse, and easily toyed with the minds of a Rutai sorcerer and a horde of N'gari with no Phoenix to speak of.

Ext@nt
Raven has held back demons and gone toe to toe with the titans of myth.

I don't think you get that her soul self is like cloak's effect (From Cloak and Dagger) on stereoids. Shes been able to resist mind control in the past.

Get over your fanboy love.

See what makes us hate you phoenix fanboys is that you think shes unbeatable by ANYONE!! You ignore facts you dont like.

You wonder why I dont debate like Mr M does? Cause I see him offering scans and logic and reasonable arguements and it does nothing to make you people see the truth.

LordKaos
I never said she was unbeatable, i haven't even said she would win, I've merely stated that it won't be as simple as you think it would be, I say again I'm not a fanboy, a fanboy would find her unbeatable, and then there are people like you who hate her so much for reasons unknown that you tend to make comments that lack any depth. Revolution Jean had a phoenix raptor (pink energy signature) of her own making coupled with Psylockes telepathy that may be a fitting match against Ravens soulself, but I'm sure you'll disagree without saying much. Either way I've grown tired of this thread and your staggering ability to be redundant.

Ext@nt
Ravens soulself wouldnt be effected by teleathy. Its a soul crushing void that takes the shape of a bird. Once your in it if she wants to she can tramatize you to the point of being comatose.

psy_blade
Originally posted by LordKaos
Why when we are forced to have a Jean with no Phoenix people automatically go for the Jean before Phoenix, there are plenty of Jean incarnations without Phoenix, to pick the Jean before Phoenix is almost like picking Phoenix since in her first incarnation Phoenix saved Jeans life, Phoenix has never shown itself to her after that up until the very end of her mortal existence in the marvel universe. Post-Phoenix Jean is a force to be reckoned with, she is a very powerful and skilled telepath/telekinetic.

I was thinking of a Jean without the whole phoenix thing but left with the whole omega thing. Kinda like when Iceman became uber for a brief period.

Ext@nt
Raven's soulself still takes it.

psy_blade
Is a Psychic astral form similar to magical astral form? Is the soulself similar to Dr. Strange's astral form? I thought all astral forms are the same when they are in the astral plane wether they come from magic or psychic.

omar.cloma
LORDKAOS, if you're tired of responding to this senseless guy who calls himself EXTANT, then allow me to replace you. Extant, I've read nothing from your posts that actually made any sense to your point of Raven owning (Phoenix-less) Jean. Other than continuing to justify your argument with non-cannonical events you've got nothing else to support your claim. You've also only been able to mention the word "fanboy" like a thousand times....times when LORDKAOS seemed to have struck a nerve in you with facts. You're sheer hate for Jean/Phoenix is so obvious that I'm beginning to think you yourself are a fanboy of the character. A couple of points you need to drill in "that thick skull of yours". There is no such thing as a Phoenix-less Jean. Prior to the Jean/Phoenix merge, Jean was already officially classified as an omega-level mutant in both telepathy and telekinesis. Let me repeat, she is an omega-level mutant even without having to tap into her Phoenix powers which are actually hers to use anytime as she is Phoenix. I'm not sure if you've ever attended Logic classes so if you have, now's the time to put what you've learned to good use. You don't win a debate by giving people names everytime you have nothing factual and logical to use as a rebuttal. You win a debate by proving your claim with cannonical facts in this case. I think you're getting pretty worked out on this.

psy_blade
Jean not using phoenix. Both at normal power levels.

psy_blade
bump

citannah17
Originally posted by Ext@nt
lol Raven also posses strong TK through magic.

As I said as a novice Raven went toe to toe with Dark Phoenix in a cross over comic.

Now she could deal with her. all she has to do is kill the avatar and the phoenix goes away.

At least we face logic. Phoenix Fan boys seem to think she can do anything. She was killed by Wolverines claws in Exiles 1-3. Raven can do worse.





actually that was a crossover and wasn't the true dark phoenix merely residual energies because the real dark phoenix would have crushed her. you talk about fan boys yet you seem to fight so hard for raven though.

citannah17
Originally posted by Jebus reborn
THERE IS NO PHOENIX IN THIS THREAD!!!






actually JACK JEAN IS THE PHOENIX READ UP ON YOUR CPMICS AND GET AT ME AND AS I RECALL EXT@NT BROUGHT PHOENIX UP FIRST IN THE FORM OF DARK PHOENIX

citannah17
Originally posted by Ext@nt
Raven has held back demons and gone toe to toe with the titans of myth.

I don't think you get that her soul self is like cloak's effect (From Cloak and Dagger) on stereoids. Shes been able to resist mind control in the past.

Get over your fanboy love.

See what makes us hate you phoenix fanboys is that you think shes unbeatable by ANYONE!! You ignore facts you dont like.

You wonder why I dont debate like Mr M does? Cause I see him offering scans and logic and reasonable arguements and it does nothing to make you people see the truth.


you seriously needs to chill out you say no phoenix so he gives you feats. and you get angry because he isnt saying your right it is something seriously wrong with a guy who get mad when some one doesnt agree with him raven cant beat jean a person with limitless psychic powers get it through your head man DAMN.

sese4lyfe
Raven would totally crush jean....jean is a good fighter....but u cant 4get that raven has powerful dark magic,....she also has telekinsis, and she can go inside peoples minds also....raven posseses a lot of power, she was porn 2 destroy the earth....her powers are limitless....even with the phoenix raven would win cause rave has this big black bird that comes out of her when she gets angry....and dont forget that she can control it....raven can pick up anything with the flick of a finger....while jean has to struggle to lift up heavy things....it would be a good fight but raven would prevail

sese4lyfe
u r totally right

sese4lyfe
what u people dont understand is that raven also has telekinesis and she can get inside peoples head...u phoenix fans over estimate her...yall think that no one can defeat her....but if youve read the comics...u would know that raven defeated her in a crosscomic....so what jean posses the phoenix force...raven posseses this huge mystical bird full of power....what yall dont understand is that this girl was born 2 destroy the earth...nd she can beat jean or phoenix...thats all 2 it.

SamZED
Raven's soulself pwned Trigon and yes he WAS dead not banished there's a book where they show his huge ugly skeleton. That feat alone puts Raven above Jean Grey. As well as the countless times she owned Titans all by herself. Potentially she's powerful enough to fight Phoenix, the problem is she rarely ever uses that potential because she hates fighting.

Prep-Man
Originally posted by SamZED
Raven's soulself pwned Trigon and yes he WAS dead not banished there's a book where they show his huge ugly skeleton. That feat alone puts Raven above Jean Grey. As well as the countless times she owned Titans all by herself. Potentially she's powerful enough to fight Phoenix, the problem is she rarely ever uses that potential because she hates fighting.

Can Raven own a weak Galactus?

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by Prep-Man
Can Raven own a weak Galactus?

Can Jean? no expression

Prep-Man
Maybe. confused

SamZED
Originally posted by Prep-Man
Can Raven own a weak Galactus?
Well, Trigon >>> Galactus.

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by SamZED
Well, Trigon >>> Galactus.

:/

SamZED
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
:/ Fine... Trigon > Galactus.. big grin In his first appearance he pwned both Titans and Justice League with a thought, and he didn't even need to leave his dimension to do it...

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by SamZED
Fine... Trigon > Galactus.. big grin In his first appearance he pwned both Titans and Justice League with a thought, and he didn't even need to leave his dimension to do it...

Not impressed.

SamZED
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Not impressed. What does it take to impress you then? Destroyed a planet at the age of 6 or maybe 7. Took over many dimensions when he was over 30. Still?

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by SamZED
What does it take to impress you then? Destroyed a planet at the age of 6 or maybe 7. Took over many dimensions when he was over 30. Still?

Feats against actual opponents. Someone more impressive than the Justice Leage and the Teen Titans. Galactus could probably destroy Galaxies when he was 2 weeks old in this universe. How does age factor in here?

Peterlane
Trigon>Galactus.......hahahaha it's the most ridicoulous thing I have ever heard. Jean Grey destroys Raven infinity times over.
And btw Jean is Phoenix, it's like saying Galactus vs Thor but no Power Cosmic for Galactus.

SamZED
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
Feats against actual opponents. Someone more impressive than the Justice Leage and the Teen Titans. Galactus could probably destroy Galaxies when he was 2 weeks old in this universe. How does age factor in here? Age is a factor because Trigon's grown many times stronger since then. Something more impressive than owning JLA and Titans in a second with a THOUGHT? Galactus's been defeated by the Fantastic four before. Id like to see Reed come up with something to stop Trigon.

Originally posted by Peterlane
Trigon>Galactus.......hahahaha it's the most ridicoulous thing I have ever heard. Jean Grey destroys Raven infinity times over.
And btw Jean is Phoenix, it's like saying Galactus vs Thor but no Power Cosmic for Galactus. The thread starter said Jean Greay, not Phoenix. Meaning Jean Grey with tp and tk and Raven rapes her with ease. Id like to see Jean try to take on the entire team of titans including WG and Flash and win. Now THAT is the most ridicoulos thing ever.

Konton
Originally posted by sese4lyfe
what u people dont understand is that raven also has telekinesis and she can get inside peoples head...u phoenix fans over estimate her...yall think that no one can defeat her....but if youve read the comics...u would know that raven defeated her in a crosscomic....so what jean posses the phoenix force...raven posseses this huge mystical bird full of power....what yall dont understand is that this girl was born 2 destroy the earth...nd she can beat jean or phoenix...thats all 2 it.

Raven has RARELY used telekinesis. The only time off the top of my head that I can recall her using it was when she tossed Nightwing (I think it was him) aside. But that was Dark Raven who was shown to use powers regular Raven had never before shown.

The crossover was not canon.

I think Raven would defeat a Phoenix-less Jean because telepathy is Jean's major asset and Jericho proved going into Raven's mind will **** you up. I don't believe Jean's tk would go through the Soulself because the soulself basically splits the dimension Raven is in in two, meaning Jean would have to be altering matter through another dimension (which is something Phoenix could probably do, but not Jean).

Phoenix Jean would wipe the floor with Raven as far as I'm concerned.

Phoenix Jean vs Dark Raven would be more even, but I don't think Dark Raven has enough feats to back up an argument saying she's got the output or defenses to stop PJ. I'm not convinced Trigon > Galactus either.

SamZED
She uses tk pretty often, even last time she became evil she was holding all of the titans in the air and they all couldnt move. Sounds like tk. Also Raven can do anything Dark Raven can, she just doesn't. Also, didnt Jericho fall into coma when he tried to get into Raven's mind?

Konton
Originally posted by SamZED
She uses tk pretty often, even last time she became evil she was holding all of the titans in the air and they all couldnt move. Sounds like tk. Also Raven can do anything Dark Raven can, she just doesn't. Also, didnt Jericho fall into coma when he tried to get into Raven's mind?

Raven being able to do anything DR can do is speculation... but if you provide a scan proving me wrong I'd be happy to concede.

Not a coma. He flipped out though. The first time he couldn't get in and had a panic attack. The second time Raven was asleep and he got in and he had a night terror.

SamZED
Originally posted by Konton
Raven being able to do anything DR can do is speculation... but if you provide a scan proving me wrong I'd be happy to concede.

Not a coma. He flipped out though. The first time he couldn't get in and had a panic attack. The second time Raven was asleep and he got in and he had a night terror. Why is it a speculation? Its not like somebody gives her a power up when she goes evil. That's her nature.

Konton
When she goes evil she opens up to Trigon's influence and (in essence) becomes his avatar. She obviously gets a power up, just like when Jean opens up to the PF.

Kris Blaze
Originally posted by SamZED
Age is a factor because Trigon's grown many times stronger since then. Something more impressive than owning JLA and Titans in a second with a THOUGHT? Galactus's been defeated by the Fantastic four before. Id like to see Reed come up with something to stop Trigon.

Being defeated by the Fantastic Four is a low feat now? Looks like someone is reaching pretty deep into the box of desperate arguments.

Regardless of the amount of work it took Trigon, you haven't provided any other combat feats. The Surfer evacuated hundreds of thousands of people and jumpstarted their ships by blinking his eyes once in Nova. Even though he just blinked his eyes, it still required some degree of power. Hyperbole and conquering some unnamed planets and dimensions of which we know fukcall doesn't put you above Galactus no expression

Prep-Man
Would Raven's soul self be able to contend with Phoenix?

Konton
Originally posted by Prep-Man
Would Raven's soul self be able to contend with Phoenix?

What exactly are you asking?

Prep-Man
Originally posted by Konton
What exactly are you asking?

Doesn't Raven have a soul self?

Konton
Originally posted by Prep-Man
Doesn't Raven have a soul self?

Yes.

Prep-Man
Originally posted by Konton
Yes.


Is it more powerful than her normal self? I read above that her soul self owned Trigon. Do you think it has a chance with Phoenix, Jean?

Konton
Originally posted by Prep-Man
Is it more powerful than her normal self? I read above that her soul self owned Trigon. Do you think it has a chance with Phoenix, Jean?

Her soul self is an extension of her dark side. It's the black bird she sends out of her body all the time. She can become her soul self and phase and use it to teleport and create force fields.

It's not something she seldom uses, it's pretty much her main power aside from empathy and flight.

By the way, Raven didn't just use it to "own Trigon." Raven chaneled the collective souls of Azar and THAT defeated Trigon.

I feel like Phoenix empowered Jean would tear the soul self apart, but standard tp/tk Jean wouldn't have the output to take her out.

As a side note, there WAS one (total PIS IMO) moment where Starfire and Cyborg shattered Dark Raven's soul self with a combined blast...

Food for thought.

And I say it was PIS because a standard Raven was able to contain Darkseid in her soulself for a time.

sese4lyfe
rave is more powerfil than jean (my opinion)....she posseses a massive amount of power, which are limitless....u guys have to understand...and i cant stress this enough...but raven was born 2 destroy the earth...what makes u people think that she cant destroy jean.

Konton
Originally posted by sese4lyfe
rave is more powerfil than jean (my opinion)....she posseses a massive amount of power, which are limitless....u guys have to understand...and i cant stress this enough...but raven was born 2 destroy the earth...what makes u people think that she cant destroy jean.

Well, you're just throwing around hyperbole here and stating it as fact.
Regular Raven has done little more than cast illusions, teleport the Titans around, and complain during fights.

Her defeating Trigon was under special circumstance mind you, and while controlling the collective souls of Azar she was able to reach the level of power required to stomp him.

Like I said:

Regular Raven > Phoenix-less Jean
Regular Raven < Phoenix Jean
and
Dark Raven is somewhat below Phoenix Jean aswell because Trigon's level of power is debatable and defeating Trigon is Raven's only feat.

Prep-Man
I'd say Trigon would be DC's answer to Dormammu.

Galactus20
dur

LordChaos77
Originally posted by sese4lyfe
rave is more powerfil than jean (my opinion)....she posseses a massive amount of power, which are limitless....u guys have to understand...and i cant stress this enough...but raven was born 2 destroy the earth...what makes u people think that she cant destroy jean.

What makes me think it is that Jean Grey was born to be the living embodiment of The Phoenix Force, which can destory way more than Earth. Jean has mind dueled with D'Spayre (20,000 year old demon of despair) in an attempt to probe his mind, won the duel and survivied the probe, she has also mind screwed a horde of N'gari while in Limbo, she can handle the mind of Raven. Jean Grey is an omega level mutant, her powers are without limit and this is not my opinion it's marvel canon.

sese4lyfe
jean is not as powerful as people put her out to be...you think she cant be defeated and its just ridiculous...(fact) she is not the most powerful hero. and the only reason i said my opinion is because they are from two different comics...there are plenty of facts i can tell u about the limitless power of raven....raven's tk is stronger than jeans is, and if you all say it not, then i beg to differ....point blank.

ColossusGrundy
Raven > Jean

Jean looks hot, but Raven wins.

Konton
Originally posted by sese4lyfe
jean is not as powerful as people put her out to be...you think she cant be defeated and its just ridiculous...(fact) she is not the most powerful hero. and the only reason i said my opinion is because they are from two different comics...there are plenty of facts i can tell u about the limitless power of raven....raven's tk is stronger than jeans is, and if you all say it not, then i beg to differ....point blank.

Do you have ANY evidence to support your claims?
Raven's powers aren't limitless and have never been stated to be so.
You say you have facts, but you give out opinions based on what I'm sure is hyperbole.

Peterlane
Tell me when Raven can rebuild someones body with tk.

SamZED
erm Raven's resurrected someone's body from the dead.

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