Understanding Jack/Liz on screen

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LovelyOne
I know lots of people don't really understand what Jack/Liz is all about..what each character really feels for the other etc...whats REALLY going on in DMC..and even PotC 1 savvy? What is Jack really feeling?? how does he really feel when he's around her?

Lots of W/E shippers will say "you cant trust Jack!, he's a thieving dishonest pirate..not good for Elizabeth at all!" etc etc

I would totally disagree there.

I think one of the biggest clues may come from something Ted or Terry said about the character of Jack..I cant find the source..may need a little help from a fellow KMCer..its kinda obvious though when you think about it

Remember they are both really similar in behaviour etc. "peas in a pod" - Jack movie 1.

Ted and or Terry said the more words Jack uses the more you shouldn't trust him..he's trying to cover his true emotions/intentions up. He's being dishonest and often has bad intentions at heart..all he cares about is personal gain etc etc.

So Jack is actually being more honest when he speaks less to someone or is completely silent.

I think Elizabeth is the same.

So when you put that over pretty much all of the scenes we have ever seen with Jack/Liz I think we get a pretty good idea of what each character is really feeling in the situation.

Jack is often very silent around Elizabeth or he uses very few words when talking to her..he's being HONEST with his emotions..his guard is DOWN

Elizabeth on the other hand??

Think about it lol..her guard is up she's trying to hide how she really feels towards him

She is the one who is all words in situations where she's trying to get something from him or is trying to cover up why she is really doing what she's doing

again look at the Curiosity scene and the end scene...she's LYING everything she is blabbing on about is a lie she's being dishonest about what she's really doing and what she really wants..so the whole thing about him respecting her honor and pullig away? is BS..she wants a kiss and she's talking and talking right up until the moment he almost kisses her...then hello we see dissapointment on her face when he pulls away..again the lie "I'm proud of you Jack"..Jack is SILENT in that scene etc etc

In other words she's trying to hide her true feelings for Jack.

again look at when she's silent around him and he's silent around her at the same time..OR when they are both blabbing on to each other at the same time laughing out loud

It all boils down to their true emotions you can see it when they lie to eachother and when they are honest to eachother..Its all very simple and telling when you think about it that way.

katelovespirate
yeah totally.

we've already been over the fact that Jack is most vulnerable around Elizabeth... with the rum scene, with her being able to trick him 2... it happens this way because Jack lets his guard down around her... either he DOES trust her, or he underestimates her... and i think it is a combination of this, as well as a subconcious desire to be bested by Elizabeth. does that make sense?

i am quite curious right now to know how much of the flirtation and chemistry was an actual part of the script (and therefore essential to the storyline) and how much was actor chemistry and improvisation. I've always wondered if the writers/director meant for there to be such amazing chemistry between Jack and Elizabeth... and if perhaps a lot of our theories arent based on the real storyline. ya know?

Elizabeth tends to be very aggressive in her relationships. its pretty amazing to see how her progression with Will in 1 mirrors her progression with Jack in 2.

Like when Liz and Will are below decks in 1, and Will is wrapping her hand, and as they discuss, she makes some very obvious physical "moves" on Will... and suggestions. However, she runs off before anything happens.

This is very similar to the curiosity scene in 2, (except that Liz and Jacks conversation is much more fun and deep) where Liz makes some obvious moves towards Jack, almost daring him to kiss her, and when he pulls back she runs off.

Elizabeth is like Jack in that you cant take her words too seriously... its the body language, the connotation of what she's saying that's important.

katelovespirate

LovelyOne
yes exactly kate exactly^^ Body Language is key..and the words are empty.

I notice her and Jack speak lots in 2 different types of situations

one when they are trying to cover up feelings for one another

and 2 when they are trying to trick someone

Elizabeth's curiosity moment? She's speaking blah blah trying to trick him into kissing her..then it changes!

she starts blah blah blahing about honor and him not kissing her because she's oh so full of honor etc..trying to cover up what she's doing whilst the body language says the complete opposite

"judge a person by actions not words" big grin

LovelyOne
LOL kate thanks for that post

funny how they said cookie doe laughing out loud

they obviously watch buffy the vampire slayer

Buffy says she's cookie doe..still not baked.. Angel is suppsed to be her one true love yet Its spike(the bad boy) who rocks her world...in the end?? She chooses Spike. She tells Angel to leave because Spike is now in her life.

shannstar79
Thanks for that post kate and I love the Cookie Doe part too
They must love Buffy heheh
speaking of buffy
She and Angel never worked out and she feel in love with the bad guy SPike,
the one your soposed to be with never gets away
IMO

katelovespirate
shann, i really love your siggy. thats so moving. seriously.

i love that line. witty Jack and him precious pearl. he's such a legend. its amazing.

LovelyOne
I think that moment when they run int eachother in Tortuga is very telling too in terms of the amounts of words they use..and then there's the silent moments between both in that scene too.

at first its blah blah!

then there's that honest moment where he says it points to what you want most in this world *looks down at her lips*..then she obviously picks up on that and its a silent moment for her too and she says "oh JACK!!"

and then what happens??..we see her look uncomfortable..

shannstar79
Originally posted by katelovespirate
shann, i really love your siggy. thats so moving. seriously.

i love that line. witty Jack and him precious pearl. he's such a legend. its amazing.
Thanks so much Kate
I cant claim the art work a girl named nan did it, but I loved it too and had to have it!!
big grin

Chiki Mina
i love cookie dough laughing out loud

backk to subject. What alot of ppl dont see or dont want to see is the true patterns from this movie. There is more depth to this movie that we have to annlyze and think about it.

Actions definitely speaks louder than words.

Now liz with the curiosity scene saying honor and crap, which she should shut the hell up cause she has no honr sorry lol, but if u see her body language its clear that shes horny and wants jack to fall into the temptation so HE will be the one to kiss her not liz. So he will be guilty, and liz can come clean.

but the end of course talking caca caca caca saying that shes not sorry. Look at her face!! it was clear this woman was sorry. Sorry that she decided to have her life wearing corsets and being with a man whom she is NOT IN LOVE with, then by being free with the man WHOM SHES IN LOVE with.

savvysparrow
Jack's attraction is fairly easy to glean. She offers him the type of challenge that no woman has presented to him before. She resists his advances, thus making her even more irresistible. She's probably one of the few people who are capable of outwitting him and he's admitted that he deeply prizes intelligence. What's sad about the nature of her relationship to him is that she's only able to defeat him because she understands his weaknesses and can subsequently use it against him. The few times that he's made himself vulnerable--in that the facade of the Legend of Captain Jack Sparrow disappears--she's taken the information he's given her and turned it against him. (Burning the rum, chaining him to the mast).

She understands that he wants people to recognize that he's secretly a good man at times, just as much as she wants people to recognize that she's a pirate. Look at the Persuade me conversation, Jack brings up the nature of the way she achieved the letters of marq from Beckett, implying that her actions are very Pirate like. After the conversation is over, she's seen smiling secretly to herself, looking very much as though she's flattered that perhaps Jack has recognized her pirate nature. (More like he hasn't forgotten)
Equally as telling is his reaction to her judgement on whether or not she'll believe him. Every time she mentions that he is a good man, or that she trusts him, he seems to pause, as though waiting with anxious anticipation on whether or not she truly sees beneath the facade.

Last but not least, their attraction to each other is also rooted in the manner in which they're constantly at odds with each other. I don't mean angry, but more along the lines that they're constantly tricking each other, and subsequently attempting to out do one another. There isn't a slight that Elizabeth has offered to Jack that he hasn't repaid in some fashion.

LovelyOne
LOL..the reason why she smiled is because Jack just suggested sex to her in the persuade me scene.

and what I was trying to say about the ending is she's blabbing on about why she's doing it and its obviously a lie..

I also dont think their relationship is based souly on the fact they out do one another and are at odds. He protects her and makes her feel safe when she needs it the most. That is the most obvious thing to me in their relationship...this is the main reason she chained him to the mast I think. He came back for her and in doing so asked her to be with him. His actions always speak louder than words and I think she knows this.

See her face when he was so silently staring at her when she said "I always knew you were a good man"

LovelyOne
She's not just chaining him up to beat him at a a game or because she has no feelings for him and she wants to save herself and Will..its because she DOES have feelings for him and she wants to save herself and Will

her true, TRUE feelings for him IMO escalated the moment he came back for her with that godlike shot. It explains everything to me when it comes to her character.

that is one of those silent Jack/Liz moments where both characters' honest emotions are on the surface..no words just actions and body language.

Mistypirate
Originally posted by LovelyOne
She's not just chaining him up to beat him at a a game or because she has no feelings for him and she wants to save herself and Will..its because she DOES have feelings for him and she wants to save herself and Will

her true, TRUE feelings for him IMO escalated the moment he came back for her with that godlike shot. It explains everything to me when it comes to her character.

that is one of those silent Jack/Liz moments where both characters' honest emotions are on the surface..no words just actions and body language.

And another part was, when they were all in the rowboat, Will asks "where is Jack"? And she says looking at him really serious, "he decided to stay behind to give us another chance". I believe she was talking about their relationship (W/E), she said that Jack decided to stay line, to give their relationship a chance. She is forcing herself to be with Will. Although, she knows their relationship is falling apart, because of the feelings she is having for Jack. The first time I saw the movie I caught that line right away.

shannstar79
Originally posted by Mistypirate
And another part was, when they were all in the rowboat, Will asks "where is Jack"? And she says looking at him really serious, "he decided to stay behind to give us another chance". I believe she was talking about their relationship (W/E), she said that Jack decided to stay line, to give their relationship a chance. She is forcing herself to be with Will. Although, she knows their relationship is falling apart, because of the feelings she is having for Jack. The first time I saw the movie I caught that line right away.

Good Lord
Ive never thought of that line that way before, Good catch Misty

PirateDiva
Originally posted by Mistypirate
And another part was, when they were all in the rowboat, Will asks "where is Jack"? And she says looking at him really serious, "he decided to stay behind to give us another chance". I believe she was talking about their relationship (W/E), she said that Jack decided to stay line, to give their relationship a chance. She is forcing herself to be with Will. Although, she knows their relationship is falling apart, because of the feelings she is having for Jack. The first time I saw the movie I caught that line right away.

I Love it....that was great never thought of that line that way!!


and honestly i never thought about this either....until i read one of the posts....on the crossing from England we see Little Elizabeth and an obviously older NORRINGTON....i dont know but that just makes me feel much better about Liz choosing Jack....i mean she was going to marry Norrington who is much older than she is!! So just eliminates the age barrier for me!!!

shannstar79
YEA SHE LIKES OLDER MEN HEHEHEH

T.Maria
i like this theory smile

actions ALWAYS speak louder than words, and we all know that subtley is usually what writers try to attempt when they are trying to create a relationship.

Im gonna be completley honest guys;

i love the way the writers are doing this triangle...it has everyone up in arms, it has everyone almost argung about who liz should end up with..and ultimately it STILL has everyone guessing

this is the beauty of it for me;
the best love is always the one that you should not have...its the tough one but the passion makes it worth while at the end of the day...its the forbidden love that makes it all the more tempting just by having a taste of it...and its the kind of love that will keep you on your toes at every stage ... its real love.

But we ALL know we are going to get the denial ALL the way through the 3rd movie from elizabeth...because THAT adds extra tension...but that doesnt mean to say she is not going to respond to anything jack says or does...

IMO when jack trades elizabeth in AWE i think we're going to get a 'look' from her that they would maybe not have added into the final script...a 'look' that will show confusion and hurt...a 'look' that will confuse the audience...and THAT is what the writers want.

The writers are sitting on a gold mine here, and they know EXACTLY what needs to be added, and what doesnt to keep the fans seeing the movie. If they want a 4th movie then it rests on J/E to make it happen because THEY are the relationship seller....


So J/E dont get a kiss in AWE...but i'm betting they get so much more....

Mistypirate
Originally posted by shannstar79
YEA SHE LIKES OLDER MEN HEHEHEH


Who doesn't like older man? I think they are more interesting. big grin

evilm0nki3
Every guy I like is older. WAY older! lol Example: Johnny Deppsmile

I love this forum! So much information!

Mistypirate
Originally posted by T.Maria
i like this theory smile

actions ALWAYS speak louder than words, and we all know that subtley is usually what writers try to attempt when they are trying to create a relationship.

Im gonna be completley honest guys;

i love the way the writers are doing this triangle...it has everyone up in arms, it has everyone almost argung about who liz should end up with..and ultimately it STILL has everyone guessing

this is the beauty of it for me;
the best love is always the one that you should not have...its the tough one but the passion makes it worth while at the end of the day...its the forbidden love that makes it all the more tempting just by having a taste of it...and its the kind of love that will keep you on your toes at every stage ... its real love.

But we ALL know we are going to get the denial ALL the way through the 3rd movie from elizabeth...because THAT adds extra tension...but that doesnt mean to say she is not going to respond to anything jack says or does...

IMO when jack trades elizabeth in AWE i think we're going to get a 'look' from her that they would maybe not have added into the final script...a 'look' that will show confusion and hurt...a 'look' that will confuse the audience...and THAT is what the writers want.

The writers are sitting on a gold mine here, and they know EXACTLY what needs to be added, and what doesnt to keep the fans seeing the movie. If they want a 4th movie then it rests on J/E to make it happen because THEY are the relationship seller....

So J/E dont get a kiss in AWE...but i'm betting they get so much more....


Exactly the writers are smart, and they know what they are doing. They know where the money is.
I'm actually expecting denial from Liz's side that is. I would make it more interesting to watch.Oh and I couldn't agree more on your theory of real love.

T.Maria
thaks mistypiratesmile

I think we all agree that its jack/liz who are constantly giving eachother home truths...they see something within eachother that they both acknowledge and understand.

elizabeth does not interract with will like she does with jack..its all sugar coated with will, which again emphasises the 'puppy love' ... whereas its all tough and gritty and hard hitting with jack...which is the 'tough love' aspect of it.

ive said before that Elizabeth and jack seek eachother out because they both want their own taste of freedom;

Elizabeth wants to be free from societies expectations and the expectations put upon her, as is seen when jack rips off her corset in POTC1...he frees her as soon as she sees him....he is her freedom.

Jack wants to be free of his facade...the constant battle he has with himself day after day...whether to do the right thing...whether to do the 'pirate' thing...Elizabeth helps him to free himself...she tells him he is a good man...and the acknowledgement ffrom her was all he needed to face the beastie...

At the end of DMC both characters got their freedom...

Elizabeth became free by doing the 'pirate' thing..
Jack became free by being a 'good man'...

they both wanted this as a form of escaping the lives they live, and wanting to know what it was like to live the others life...it was curiosity that brought them together at the end of DMC....

So when all is said and done, the characters balance their relationship out;

when one of them is at one end of the spectrum; the pirate end

the other is at the opposite end; doing the good/right/expected end

...so they balance eachother out beautifully either way smile

Sorry that was long and probably didnt make any sense...hehe smile

sailorleo
oh of course it made sense!

Mistypirate
Totally agree w/ T.Maria but, I think that Liz's character is gonna have to work more her ways. Although she is gradually changing, but she is gonna have to put a little bit of effort on her part in order for her to be completely free and happy. J/L are completely different but yet completely alike. And thats what makes these characters so interesting to watch.

PirateDiva
Originally posted by T.Maria
thaks mistypiratesmile

I think we all agree that its jack/liz who are constantly giving eachother home truths...they see something within eachother that they both acknowledge and understand.

elizabeth does not interract with will like she does with jack..its all sugar coated with will, which again emphasises the 'puppy love' ... whereas its all tough and gritty and hard hitting with jack...which is the 'tough love' aspect of it.

ive said before that Elizabeth and jack seek eachother out because they both want their own taste of freedom;

Elizabeth wants to be free from societies expectations and the expectations put upon her, as is seen when jack rips off her corset in POTC1...he frees her as soon as she sees him....he is her freedom.

Jack wants to be free of his facade...the constant battle he has with himself day after day...whether to do the right thing...whether to do the 'pirate' thing...Elizabeth helps him to free himself...she tells him he is a good man...and the acknowledgement ffrom her was all he needed to face the beastie...

At the end of DMC both characters got their freedom...

Elizabeth became free by doing the 'pirate' thing..
Jack became free by being a 'good man'...

they both wanted this as a form of escaping the lives they live, and wanting to know what it was like to live the others life...it was curiosity that brought them together at the end of DMC....

So when all is said and done, the characters balance their relationship out;

when one of them is at one end of the spectrum; the pirate end

the other is at the opposite end; doing the good/right/expected end

...so they balance eachother out beautifully either way smile

Sorry that was long and probably didnt make any sense...hehe smile

what r u kidding me...seriously u should like write for them...or be a pro critic or something.....i loved this post it makes sooooo much sense!!! Its sooo true they do balance each other....opposites attract!!!

willofthewisp
I agree, misty. She will have to put forth a little more effort. She's not really changing for Jack the way he is for her. It's obvious she's always had that devilish side whereas he's had to fine-tune his good side.

T.Maria
yeah i agree that elizabeth has to change....but if they changed to suite eachother completely then their tension willnot drive us as crazy as it does now! big grin

It would end up like will/liz ... and if they truly wanted to give us a liz/lack ending they will do it at the VERY end...if they go ahead and do POTC 4 (possibly 5 or 6) ...they will leave us completely suspended until the very end...becuse their tension and sexual chemistry is what draws our shippery hearts to themsmile

people get bored when they've 'been there done that', like with the liz/will thing...people wanted something new and BOY did we get it! So the writers wont do it...they'll wait and wait and wait....their money comes from the tension between the characters!smile

willofthewisp
Not really, because Liz and Jack are mischief makers. Working to make a relationship last is just as entertaining to watch as the great sexual banter that comes during falling in love. As a model, look at Han and Leia in Star Wars. Empire Strikes Back was all about playful banter and sexual tension full of chemistry with a climax as hot as the kiss scene in DMC. But it didn't lose people's interest in Return of the Jedi. Now Han had doubts if he could keep her or if he'd lose her to Luke and Leia had a whole mess of problems with her family in addition to becoming Jabba the Hutt's *****.
If the people are dynamic, the relationship will be. Will and Liz? not dynamic.

Mistypirate
I think if they decide to make movies 4,5,6 they are going to leave our much desire J/L ending for the end. All the chemistry and sexual tension between them, is whats gonna keep drawing everybody to see the movies. So, if they decide to make the sequels, I believe thats the way the writers are going to play with the characters in order to draw more $$$ and audiences. I wouldn't want to see their relationship to develop easily, I believe it can end up like the W/E relationship. I don't know if anyone has heard a saying that says,"what begins fast, it will end fast". So I wouldn't want this to happen to J/L. I would like to see some kind of conflict in their relationship, knowing that they both want to be with each-other, but there are circumstances that are making it impossible.
And then at the end, the conflicts between them are resolve and we have our happy ending.

confused

Chiki Mina
well i think this is a romance that u dont regurly see in much disney. It shows more like the "hard to get" kind of thing. Its like a love/hate relationship which makes it more hot and sparks.

willofthewisp
Yeah, I agree. They've come a long way from the boring love-at-first-sight deal where it takes the characters all of 10 seconds to fall deeply in love.

Not since Simba and Nala, I don't think, has there been a Disney couple that wasn't immediately attracted to each other. They started as just friends, no crush, nothing. To me, that's more realistic than Ariel seeing Eric briefly and deciding she'd give up everything she had for him.

LovelyOne
AYEE LION KING!! and I love how she falls for the rogue simba laughing out loud

Chiki Mina
Oh yea! im glad u poted that willo. We can use all the patterns we need form other disney movies.

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