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Whats this whole deal about the compass?? I think you guys are over analysing things. I think the compass really has no more importance than what it shows,.. Really guys stop over analysing these things. Producers/directors don't have to have hidden meanings for all these minute things!!!
Well,.. thats all I have to say.

i dont think the compass is minute at all, i think its very important
sure the compass shows what it shows, jack and liz pointing at each other

You have a point, diddly. A lot of over-analysis is going on, but the compass is important to the story because it is the whole reason Jack reunites with Will and the whole reason our heroic trio find the chest at all. It may play a big part in AWE too, but we don't know.
People want to come up with explanations other than the fact that the compass simply points to what you want the most. In my opinion, which is very simple and not analytical, when Liz holds it it points to Jack and when Jack holds it it points to Liz.

there is a lot of over analyzing going on, but if you dont then you may miss some things, and its better to read more into it than less, b/c if you dont then you'll miss a lot of key things

and the compass was really important to the plot, no over-analyzing there

OMG....Seriously!!! DMC was all about the COMPASS and JACK AND LIZ OF COURSE!!!!!! So the compass cant be over analyzed...it's practically the whole point of the MOVIE!!!

You don't even have to over-annalyzed it the compass was an important aspect to All Things in the movie. That's what writing is all about, writers use symbolisms in their movies. They are very smart people. Thats what makes movies so interesting to watch.

I know just ask Lovelyone who does this at school....Its very much needed!! Just ask her how its done, she's been taught by the PROS!!!! ANALYZING IS THE KEY!!!

^ yupp! totally agree...

nobosy is over analyzing..it is SO important...especiually becasue they alwaYS MENTIONED IT. IF IT WAS IMPORTANT IT WOULDNT SEEM so importNT, RIGHT?

It is actually the thing the ENITRE story pivots around. I dunno if it will be a big thing in movie 3 however.

Its probaby the main reason Liz did what she did at the end.

Its whats got Jack vexed with Elizabeth.(vise versa)

Its the only reason why Will goes looking for him.

We have to remember that it doesnt show the holder what they want most in a village or in a small town..it shows the person what they want most in the ENITRE WORLD

Thats gotta be a scary thought for someone who thinks they should be in love with another man...a man the compass is NOT pointing to in the movie at all...Its only pointing to the means to save that man which IMO shows us a great deal about how Elizabeth actually feels when it comes to William.

Its really interesting because the compass apperas to be doing the same thing for Liz as its doing for Jack..but its a slower process.

I'm wondering if Will is going to have it in movie 3..Its gonna be his time to realise what he wants most in the world..Lizzie or dadda?

Its one of those narritive devices that demonstarte whats really going on inside the characters minds. I think the compass was a clever way to show the battle going on in the minds of Jack and Elizabeth and why its pointing to a certain place and then to another place.. It may be Will's turn now to have that little battle with what the compass is showing him.

I personally think the compass was too powerful for Elizabeth to handle in movie 2. She's not even met the mentor /supernatural helper of the story (tia) which means she's feeling like a fish out of water and she's not even had the helpful shove when it comes to accepting and understanding the adventure(Jack)..she's basically feeling exposed and unprepared in the special world(Jack) and she's been given something that is too powerful for her to understand and handle properly at the moment. Its way too early on for her character...its telling her "you want Jack!" and whats worse 1. JACK is with her 2. She knows she wants him in a sexual way and now a mental way and it scares the crap out of her.

Knowledge like that is a VERY dangerous thing for a character to have before they even meet the mentor/supernatural aid. It was way to early for her. And so thats a main reason why she does what she does at the end IMO

I get what you guys are saying,.. and I'm going to use a metaphor,.. I was Reading a book and I knew what was going to happen next(it was obvious) but Then I thought, "what happens if the author KNEW the readers were going for the LOGICAL answer,.. so he OBVIOUSLY will make it more deeper in meaning" All in all I spent the whole night thinking the story over and over. Then I found out what I thought REALLY was going to happen,.. I read till the end of the book and it ends up the LESS analysing I did to the story the close my guess became.
Although I did find out a lot about the character and the villa,.. And I do give you kudos on the "finding things you normally over look" thing,.. But I really think you guys exceed the meaning of over analysing.

A perfect example, diddly, of what you're talking about is Emma, by Jane Austen. You almost have to read it twice because the first time, most everything is at first seen from Emma's point of view, which is nearly always wrong. Then you find things out later, and you can go back and look at clues that, seeing them a second time, seem painfully obvious.
It kind of works the same way with POTC. There doesn't have to be a lot of analysis the first time, but a second time, you can see little clues that point you in the right direction. True, not every clue mentioned here may be an actual clue the writers devised (like the whole heart shape behind Jack for example), but there are little hidden things that you can look for.

What heart shapped thing??

Ooh, I wish I could remember the thread, but someone showed stills from a scene where Jack is in the foreground and in the background, you can see the outline of a heart. It's basically made up of the edge of the deck and what looks like rope and hooks. Little things like that aren't clues if you ask me, and I don't think the dog really represents Jack, but there are little clues that make a lot of sense.

?????? Man I missed alot when i was on restriction!!

It's probably on like pg. 4 now or somewhere.

Once again, I disagree.


The heart is the most important aspect in the movie. It's what everyone wants, it's what influences everyone's lives in one way or another in the film.


The compass begins the journey for everyone, and it's what ends the journey.


So yes, the compass is central to the plot, but it isn't the plot itself. As much as I enjoy all the discussion about J/E vs. W/E, I just don't see that TnT spent the entire movie putting in teeny tiny clues to point to J/E.


I'm a writer myself (unpublished, but working at that. I'm almost done with my first manuscript!!) and I like to put in symbols and allude to future happenings, but I don't spend my time beating people over the head with 'hidden messages', which is basically what most people here think TnT have done.


I'll grant you that a J/E ending is somewhat possible, but I don't think it is at all likely, because everything points at Will and Elizabeth as loving each other. To me, at least. What is symbolic to J/E shippers is often interperated by me as to have a completely different meaning.


Such as the scene at the end of the movie where Elizabeth is crying. A lot of people think that Elizabeth is crying because she lost her love in Jack...but I'm more than certain that she is crying because she betrayed Will's love, she betrayed Jack's trust, and she murdered a man.


There is not enough evidence (the kiss looked more like desperation than passion to me) to support the idea that Elizabeth's one and only desire is to be with Jack. I certainly don't think she was so in love with him that she killed him to get him out of her life...Elizabeth is a much stronger woman than that, and it would only make her character weak to say such a thing. I also don't think that she is retrieving him to get something back in her life that she feels she's lost forever...


Rather, Elizabeth is going to find Jack to right the wrong she committed against him...basically, Elizabeth is going to look for redemption. I wonder if that won't be the major theme of the next film....hmmmmmm.....

Speaking of over analyzing things, here I go
I was watching COTBP, the last two night and that opening scene....

You know Lovely how you always say that Liz has to look at for Will, she is more of his protector than his lover...like she goes in search for Jack cuz she doesn't have enough faith in Will...I like that, it makes sense...and who does she trust ...JACK...she says it a few times in DMC although in the Peas in a Pod scene she says "you're a smart man, Jack, but I don't entirely trust you."...but she does....
how about Norrie saying "you don't actually believe him" and then she looks at Jack and says "how do we find it"...totally ignoring ol' norrie....

If you watch Norrie in this scene "you smell funny"....you can see how amazed he is at LIz's reactions to Jack....

anyways, as I was saying....on the opening scene (sorry this is confusing and jumping around)....they pull young Will out of the water, and Gov. Swann tells Elizabeth " Elizabeth, I want you to accompany
the boy. He's in your charge now.
You'll watch over him?

So...Liz watches over Will...that's her lot in life...but is this the same as love..the kind of love that consumes you.....I believe Liz loves Will...but I think the love that is beginning to develop for Jack is the kind of love people only dream about...that only very few are lucky enough to find...

oh yea, and then Liz tells Will "I'm watching over you Will"....
she takes that medallion because (1) she thinks Will's a pirate and she doesn't want Norrington to find out and (2) she is intriqued by the gold medallion because it is a Pirate thingy and she is obsessed with all things "pirate"....(3)her taking the medallion is the first sign what Liz is really all about....

Willofthewisp. hundreds of critics and the audience alike really don't understand why they added in the cannibal island scene..they felt it was about 10 - 15 minutes of unneeded screen time.

I disagree. Because they clearly wanted to bring the dog back in to the story..WHY? if its not really an important character why on earth waste a whole scene to show you the dog and what he's doing. It didn't have to be there at all.

Firstly you have to look at the theme when it comes to Jack. He is a man torn between 2 things. His old way of life, material possessions and image or Elizabeth and making her an obligation.

You actually see the dog go through the same things we see happen to Jack later on. And he actually lets go of the keys just like Jack decided to be brave and go back to the pearl

Jack's theme in the movie matches the dog's pretty much to a tee.

Also all you need to look at is Ted and Terry's rules of script writing "never kill the dog" the dog in a story is a rogue..he's Jack. we see that it mirrors Jack in the story. We think Jack is dead..just like we thought the dog was dead...until later(after Jack dies) we see the dog sitting alive and well on a throne (Jack will come back a king) and for some "strange" reason he now has a juicy big fat bone in his mouth. It is very significant change in the dogs personality That dog was so set in his ways during movie 1 that he wouldn't budge for anyone..he wouldn't let his guard slip...we later find out that he can be tempted by the bone when its one person on his own asking him to do the right thing and drop the keys.

We later see in movie 2 that one person is getting to Jack on a deep level..in order for the dog to get the bone in movie 1 he had to drop his keys to help someone..and then he will get a reward for doing the good deed which is what the dog really wants most: a bone...

In movie 2. Jack dropped his old way of life in order to save the woman he cared for and as a reward he's now "got Elizabeth"..which is what he really wants the most...She's what Jack wants the most(compass)..and so we see the dog sitting happy with a bone in his mouth which is basically a change of way the dog lives. Jack has just died and is gonna be reborn..and this only ever happens when a character is about to go through a HUGE phsycological shift in personality..and the fact the dog copied what Jack does later on in the movie and we find out that he TOO has had a huge shift in personality all ties up with the dog resembling Jack. The dog suggests Jack's change is Elizabeth and it is because of Elizabeth..he's going to come back and he's going to be ready for her.

LovleyOne
you are AWSOME

lol thanks *blush*

I probably am wrong ya know..lookin too deep..I'm losing a bit of faith in my film studies skills ya know

Originally posted by LovelyOne
lol thanks *blush*

I probably am wrong ya know..lookin too deep..I'm losing a bit of faith in my film studies skills ya know

Do Not loose faith! even if you are wrong, YOU SHOULD BE RIGHTeverything U say makes perfect sence
Anyway I have faith in U

Originally posted by LovelyOne
lol thanks *blush*

I probably am wrong ya know..lookin too deep..I'm losing a bit of faith in my film studies skills ya know

Lovely, no offense in your profession and all. But, you don't have to be a film study student to see all this. I mean, you see all this because its what you see. Not what you want to see or make belief. You are not a crazy person fantasizing on what you want to happen in the 3rd with Jack/Liz. You're a smart girl with a brain of Einstein and a heart of gold. You cant loose your faith on this movie, if it we have gone this far, we can go even farther without falling off the edge. And if we made it this far is because we stick together and work together on our theories. We are not perfect, we do make mistakes, thats what makes us human not crazy ppl who makes up theories. If it doesnt turn out 100% percent as you said-as we all said, then don't let it ruin your dream. As I said, we are human, but we must stay straight and tall and on our ground. I know that ours and your theories are not wasted at all. I'm sure that it will all turn out as we want maybe not exactly but still the way we want. So don't loose faith.

I'm sorry, that was a looooong lecture there. I know I'm not your mother lol but I don't want you or anybody sad. I just want to help all I can. I'm no Einstein but at least I try to help

Originally posted by LovelyOne
lol thanks *blush*

I probably am wrong ya know..lookin too deep..I'm losing a bit of faith in my film studies skills ya know


Now lookie here, missy...


We may disagree on everything about Pirates of the Caribbean (except for maybe that we both think it's a great movie ), but I don't even want to hear you say that you're losing faith....at least in yourself.


Your posts are some of the most interesting to read and although we have huge gaps in interpretations of various scenes and the meaning of scenes, it doesn't mean that I doubt your sincerety or what you've learned in class.


So you know, chin up and all that. I don't want to encourage you too much, since you know, we have to still argue and stuff. But seriously, don't get so discouraged. I mean, look at me; I'm against a gazillion people on this site and you don't see me getting all bummed out. If I'm not bummed out then you can't get depressed, because then I'll have to be all angsty and stuff.


So yeah...W/E rule and yes, J/E rules as well.


And yes, this is a horrible post, but I'm supposed to be at work but I couldn't just let this slide...

Surreal 44....Wow u know even though we've clashed in the past i must applaud u... that was sincere and it gained my respect (even though the post wasnt at all directed toward me)!! Good for you!! You've never lost ur faith in WILL/LIZ...and it's true when it's u against a forum i understand it gets hard...but i applaud u!! That was honorable of u!!

Just to clear a few things, I think a few people assumed I was talking about the actual heart of Davy Jones when I brought up the heart thing. That's not the case and I think that heart is very important to the story. I was referring to what someone though was symbolism. No offense to that person, but it was the picture of Jack with a "heart" in the background that I mean.

The dog....Your posts are interesting, no doubt, and I agree with most of them. And it's a very relevent and very telling parallel that you've drawn. The problem is that I don't think the writers really had that in mind. You can quote the whole "don't kill the dog" thing, but it's just the vibe I get from it. I think they included the dog in the beginning because it's a prominent scene from the ride and they thought it would be fun to run with it. The island scene, to me and probably just to me, is a break from the dark, deep story of the compass and heart and what each character means to the rest. There had to be some fun in there, real pirate fun and the closest thing we get next to the cannibal scene is the fight on the wheel. POTC needs spectacle and action in addition to unforgettable characters and great storylines. That's part of its charm. So most things I do think there is a big hidden meaning too, just not the dog.

you dont add anything into a story unless it is relevent to the plot..a movie is not a ride..what the dog does (if it was meaningless) shouldnt even be in there if it was just a meaningless add in from the ride.

dont you find this more than a mere coincidence:

The dog abandons his 2 friends to be taken under by a wave still clinging onto his old way of life

Jack does the same

The dog loses the keys, next time we see him he's no longer a coward, he's barking trying to protect his friends

Jack comes back and is no longer a "coward"..he blows the crap outta the kraken

The dog, then draws the enemy away from his friends whilst they escape

Jack does the same

We think the dog is dead

We think Jack is dead

we see the dog return at the end and he has a bone in his mouth

we know Jack is gonna come back..and coincidently his character had just crossed step 9 (seizing of the sword/reward after the supreme ordeal) The reward was Elizabeth.

dog gives up something and gets something better "give a dog a bone"

remember what Ted said the entire meaning of the series was.."a trade off for Jack"

IMO its far too much to be a coincidence

the dog's character arc is practically the same as Jack's it seems

The dog hs its own plot line..which is a hilarious notion because its a DOG..since when does a dog have its own character plot in a
movie like this?

you have to remember that its only people in america who know the dog is part of the ride..the entire audience/critics of PotC haven't even been on that ride have they? So just seeing a dog like that in there is like "WTF?" which is a BIG NO NO in movies..eveything needs meaning.

P.S thanks everyone for making me feel better

PirateDiva and LovelyeOne: Well, I'm not always mean. I do care about other peoples' feelings, ya know? And I never post anything I don't mean. Well, not often, at any rate. Sometimes sarcasm isn't easy to pick up when you're on-line.


Oh, and willofthewisp, if you meant me by the comment about the heart, I wasn't actually using that er...moment or whatever it is in my post. I don't even know what that little scene is, although I've heard about it, and I didn't even bother to check it out because it sounds kind of silly (whoops, here I go, back to arguing. ).


I just meant that the thing that everyone wanted was the heart, and that the compass was more of a plot device to move the story forward rather than the central theme.


I think that the theme of this movie was not er...J/E, but more about what price a person is willing to pay for someone/something they care deeply about.


I just can't think that even if there is romance in this movie that it was the one and only thing on the writers' minds. I hope not, and if it was, then I dread to see the third film because the whole reason I like the series is because it's all about adventure, with a touch of love tossed in for fun.

When you hear pirates you think of adventure yea you are correct. But pirates do get lonely lol. Theres more than tressure and adventure. You cant just toss in love for the hell of it. I think love is the main msg here.

I agree to some extent surreal44. To me its all about final choices, The "thematic argument" raised (which is there according to Terry) is an argument because there are 2 themes going on with each character I think...and Liz's final choice in DMC is not to have a happy ending with Will Its to be with Jack...

everyone thinks that scene on the pearl is her final choice..well its not. Her final choice is to give up a happy ending with Will in order to return to Jack..She has the chance to go off and forget everything..but no..she wants to go and get Jack and risk her relationship with Will to do so...she's willing to pay the price, give up a happy ending with will in order to be with Jack again.

that is the final answer to that argument..and what I find interesting is how Ted and Terry said all the closure to the thematic argument/love triangle is there at the end of DMC..and if they were not going to do a movie 3 they say they feel as if they have closed the love triangle in a decent way

Will/Liz were no where near eachother emotionally at the end of that movie..what is established is how far appart they really have become by the end of it. She's physically with Will but emotionally its all about Jack. Jack is physically with his pearl but emotionally it's all about Elizabeth..Will is physically with Liz but emotionally he is clearly with his father.

I would say the closure to the love triangle is there too..and its not will/Liz...no where even near that...they actually fell apart in the story and remained apart by the end of it..because of what had previously happened to them both in the story. Will is now concentrated on his father. Elizabeth has become infatuaded with Jack..and vise versa.

There was no Wl//Liz resolution at all by the end of DMC..no understanding..they were left wide open and far apart

Far apart they may be, but Jack is even further apart from Liz than Will is at the moment.


Elizabeth chose to save Will...her decision to go back is not because she suddenly said, "OMG, I was crazy to do that because I LOVE Jack Sparrow!"


It was more of a "God, I suck so much, and Will is so angry...does he suspect that I left Jack behind?" and then the offer comes up to save Jack...and she sees a chance to right the wrong that she committed. That's how I read the scene.


From the first time I watched that movie, the idea of J/E hooking up never crossed my mind, because to me, she loves Will.


You can all look forward to what is turning out to be a mini-novel in its own right in a few days...If I were in school, I'd so use it as a thesis. Seriously.

not emotionaly my friend, he may be physically but not emotionally..Terry never said anything about physical endings..he emplied emotional development..according to the novel "Jack desired elizabeth all the more knowing that her heart was as dark as his own" you can clearly see in his last scene he is totally smitten with her and vise versa

Will's only emotional development in the move? Accepting his father in his life and him becoming top priority..

Towards the end. Elizabeth gives up will to be with Jack again. She's actually just crossed the "first threshold of adventure"..just after meeting the "supernatural helper" after previously "refusing the call to adventure" (jack wanting to be with her) and crossing the first threshold is the point in which the heros/heroine's story truly takes off...

each character did emotionally develop they didnt stay the same from start to finish..things changed. No character starts and ends emotionally the same as they were to start with..and thats the important thing here..

Where is each character emotionally heading throughout and at the end of DMC?..Its not Will/Liz getting emotionally closer..and its not Jack returning to be a pirate who cares for no one but himself.

according to T&T DMC is all we need for closure to the love triangle and closure for each character..DMC has set the base for where each is going to end in movie 3...they need not make a 3rd..that is only "tying up open plot ends" it seems

sorry triple post..but had DMC not made a definitive statement for each character before it closed and had it ended "open ended" where anything could happen with Liz/Jack/Will in movie 3 then people would not like it at all. Its an unfamiliar way to end a story..and humans fear the unknown. Its in our natures to do so. So ending it where it could go Will/Liz or Jack/Liz by movie 3 is a mistake I think. It has to have some form of closure..even if its only part 1 of a 2 part story It needs to make definitive statements, closing statements for each character. Otherwise by movie 3 we would be rather lost unless its continuing from what where Liz/Jack/Will seemed to be heading..so the closure is needed

...the ending certainly didn't feel like a Will/Liz ending to me, hence the fact there are so many hopeful Jack/Liz shippers about..they greatly out number the W/E shippers it seems because the majority saw a Jack/Liz thing (the 1 billion may suggest this too)..By the end of DMC for W/E? There was no closure there at all that is a mere plot end to be tied up..had they meant to be the couple in movie 3..then why is there no closure in movie 2 to this?...there was between Jack/Liz though a "sacred marriage" to be exact & Will/father had closure IMO

anyway I'm off to bed

No, she doesn't, Lovely. She is going for redemption...that is going to be the whole point of the third film.


I'm rather hoping for a moment of redemption for Davy Jones. I really like him, even if you know...he's a walking hybird of sea creatures.


As far as Will's emotional development, I think that it was sloppy editing and quite possibly, the wrong father figure that made it seem as if there is no real emotional development. More on that in my thesis...


Anyway, one of the moments that stuck out in my mind right after I left the theater when I first saw the film was this moment between Will and Elizabeth on the ship. He hands her the gun and it was this absolute moment of connection between them. They don't have to speak, they don't have to explain to each other...they already know what the other one is thinking.


That to me speaks volumes about their relationship.


Yes, Will caught Liz kissing Jack...would you not be angry, hurt, and confused by that? Would you not withdraw from that person, at least emotionally? And Will is not the kind of man to force a woman to speak when she isn't willing.


He loves Elizabeth enough to offer to go after Jack, and if Tia hadn't interrupted that moment (plot devicy!), then I think things would have been settled between Will and Liz right then.


Everything that is J/E in this movie is meant to cause tension and to make people believe that they are in love, when if you step away from the whole J/E love and look at it, underneath all that physical (and I do think it is almost purely physical) attraction, Will is always there in between them...


Remember, your ship ONLY works if Will basically vanishes or dies. There is no other way for J/E to work, because Will IS in fact the one that Elizabeth wants and desires. I think the reason we never see Elizabeth with the compass in her hand when Will shows up is because it would point to him, and they couldn't let that happen if they wanted the rest of the movie to be so tension-filled.

Well put, surreal. Very well stated. LovelyOne, you must think I just go back and forth on agreeing/disagreeing with you (hmm, much like Liz and Jack) but I just can't group the dog in with your other pieces of evidence which make so much sense. There are a lot of films out there with scenes that are in for no reason. They don't further the plot or develop character or offset a mood. They are pointless and should have been cut. Take for example a lot of the scenes re-added to the Star Wars movies for the special editions. Those scenes didn't really add anything except visual splendor.

"you dont add anything into a story unless it is relevent to the plot..a movie is not a ride..what the dog does (if it was meaningless) shouldnt even be in there if it was just a meaningless add in from the ride."
No, but if you base your film on a ride that has lots of memorable images, it's a courtesy to fans to include those in the film. Lots of parts of Tortuga and Liz being bounced into the air by a sheet in the first movie are from the ride.

"dont you find this more than a mere coincidence:

The dog abandons his 2 friends to be taken under by a wave still clinging onto his old way of life

Jack does the same"
- The dog has friends?

"The dog loses the keys, next time we see him he's no longer a coward, he's barking trying to protect his friends

Jack comes back and is no longer a "coward"..he blows the crap outta the kraken"
-- How is the dog a coward if he's guarding the keys from prisoners? These aren't friends, they are opposition. His duty is to keep them in there, so he's going to hold the keys. Jack doesn't consider it a duty to stop Davy Jones or Beckett.

"The dog, then draws the enemy away from his friends whilst they escape

Jack does the same"
-- Are you talking about when the cannibals chase the dog instead? If you are talking about that, Jack doesn't use himself as bait. He returns and helps fight and even though he probably planned on staying on the ship, he had that choice made for him.

"We think the dog is dead

We think Jack is dead

we see the dog return at the end and he has a bone in his mouth

we know Jack is gonna come back..and coincidently his character had just crossed step 9 (seizing of the sword/reward after the supreme ordeal) The reward was Elizabeth."
----- No one thinks Jack is dead.

"dog gives up something and gets something better "give a dog a bone"
-- it has yet to be seen if the dog gets something better because we know what happens to creatures the cannibals admire and treat honorably. They end up eating them anyway.

I'm not trying to be smug or arrogant. You've done me the favor of making me look at things in a different light and I agree with most of it and disagree with a little of it. I'm trying to do the same for you.

sorry Lovelyone but i actually agree with willo on this.


ts nothing really but a coincidence.

Not EVERYTHING in a movie is important...some things are just added for mere entertainment...or really just a time filler..ya know?

Wow i hitnk htis is the first time ive ever disagreed with any of you theories...

OH man oh man ppl chill good Looooorrrrd!!

Damn!! Why cant we enjoy this movie?! Sure POTC is about adventure, excitement and humor, but its also about love!! Theres always a msg in these movies especially the T&T ones. You guys are turning into a simple movie that was inspired from a ride into a feud of symbols patterns and hero steps and blady blahs!

Sometimes even the simplest things are important. When you try to put it together with something and if it matches then points for us but if it doesnt make sense then its not important. Lets not over-annalyze and lets not under-annalyze(did that made sense there? oh well).

We have to stay neutral. We have to keep an open mind about this not close everything because its something thats just "simple".

I actually agree about the Dog/Jack Why???? Because believe it or not the Dog is one of the main charcters from the ride. If you guys have been to the ride, theres the Dog and the Dog has been there for years!!! Pintel and Ragetti are also original characters from the ride. Thats why they keep them around most of the scenes.

Since Jack is our main character, we cannot just ''kill'' him and not get the girl. What do we want for our main characters?? To be happy!! We want our dog to be happy and get the bone also!!



Im sure you guys will be surprised when we are gonna see the Dog alive-they fukin have to hes an original potc character from the ride!!

your right abouyt the over analyzing and under analyzing thing...but i still have to disagree (not argue...just disagree)

Sure the dog is a main character and of course (well at least i hop) he wont die..but does that really have to do naything with Jack...well i guess it could but would the writers go into such a detail as that? especially when people (not like us who look into every detail) who watch it wont really know that the dog and Jack are like one i guess you could say? no they wont. if they were as in love with the movie as A LOT of us here then they probably owuld but if they are just simple people who just watch it for entertainment the im not sure they would undertsnad it or think naything of it. and thats why i dont think htye would do that.

On secong thought I guess since writers are so creative they would wnat to do somehting like that for the people like us....ugh i duno im so confused ijust disagreed with you then i disagreed with myself...im having an off day...

I think, and please dont take offense of this, is sit and organize your thoughts. Its confusing yes, but sometimes it makes it look confusing when it really isnt. T&T always have a way of surprising you especially the ending like Shrek. Never expected Fiona to be an ogre too and love Shrek. Same thing with DMC. We never expected for Jack to sacrifice for Liz and falling in love with her.

The clues are there under our noses, what can you expect form a T&T movie?? Just a Will/Liz ending and teach us to toy with their feelings especially our main character?!?!? WE dont want our character to be hurt. Choose whoever you want-Gibbs, Barbossa, Will as your favorite character. But our main is Jack weather who likes it or not. The 1st movie was no real hero. Now DMC has a hero who is now Jack. WE want our heroes to get the girls. WE dont want Jack to end up with hookers again and less become a coward and a sex addict again!!

Whats the use of writing all that story to change Jack into a heroic character, brave, and unselfish man then change it to his old ways again. Waste of time, waste of money theirs and ours, waste of ink, waste of paper, and waste of trees.

You can thave Jack change back again to his old ways...Its like puking and eating your vomit! Nasty example but its true. In ohter words, its fugged up and it wouldnt make any sense.

Again, we must not over-annalyze nor under-annalyze. We must keep our heads clear and most of all clear from all those rumors. Cant we do what we do best? Make inteligent theories in what we see in the movie not from other sources say?

I dont think shes going back for redemption surreal44 because she doesnt actually say sorry to Jack at all when she brings him out..she's not sorry for trading a mans life to save her on and Will's she does it quite bit to be honest..she's done it 3 times now and its only this time it has well and truly hit her.

.She is a pirate as T&T say..its her nature not to care about betrayals but this time it has visibly shaken her because she has Will there and is clearly feeling empty, She's lost the man she wants most in the world(whiich is what the compass shows) in order to save who she wanted to save most in the world(which is what the compass shows)..she's lost someone she's gaining feelings for(which is what DMC the entire movie shows)..its not like rejecting norrinton and rejecting Jack in movie 1 to save her skin..last time she wasnt getting feelings for Jack so she quite easily traded his life to save Will's and showed no remorse what so ever..this time? Everything is different.

willofthewisp..you just dont get these things I notice..Its not about what the dogs job is, stopping people having keys where I'm linking it with Jack... its about his nature and behavior.

People here dont seem to understand that you dont add a dog into movie and give it its own 15 minute plot line unless it is important. to something else in the story. They didnt even need to show you the dog running away and barking. Had the dog not been important this time T&T would have probably taken it out despite it being in the ride..

I know that I'm not looking too deeply here because my teacher actualy told me he noticed this too with the dog and Jack and congratulated me on spotting it and mentioning it to the class.

If I randomly added a dog and gave it its own 10 minute screen time and story into my screenplay I had to hand in for my coursework last year I would have got an F.

Also surreal44. Will is not actually getting Jack back because he wants to do it for Elizabeth. He plans to betray Jack to his death and steal his pearl to save his father. A clear development has happened to Will by the end of DMC..he's planning how he's going to save his father. He's not considering Elizabeth's emotions at all here. Had Tia not quietly mentioned to Will that he could use the pearl to save his dad, only moments before suggesting they bring Jack back...Will would have never stepped up and said "lets do it!". Will has a secret and rather selfish motive when the movie closes.

I don't think Will is one to forgive Jack too easily after seeing that kiss..or elizabeth..he is actually quite horrible and discriminative as a character when it comes to having a set hatred on someone.

Elizabeth doesn't know what Will is planning here so there is no deeper connection there when it comes to not having to say anything to each other. Will is lying to her and she's falling for it.

Originally posted by LovelyOne
Also surreal44. Will is not actually getting Jack back because he wants to do it for Elizabeth. He plans to betray Jack to his death and steal his pearl to save his father. A clear development has happened to Will by the end of DMC..he's planning how he's going to save his father. He's not considering Elizabeth's emotions at all here. Had Tia not quietly mentioned to Will that he could use the pearl to save his dad, only moments before suggesting they bring Jack back...Will would have never stepped up and said "lets do it!". Will has a secret and rather selfish motive when the movie closes.

I don't think Will is one to forgive Jack too easily after seeing that kiss..or elizabeth..he is actually quite horrible and discriminative as a character when it comes to having a set hatred on someone.

Elizabeth doesn't know what Will is planning here so there is no deeper connection there when it comes to not having to say anything to each other. Will is lying to her and she's falling for it. i usually agree with you lovelyone, so this is a first, but i think it's possible for will to be doin that for liz. It's just my instincts telling me, AND beside the fact that i'm a carbon copy of his personality, it's what i would have done, but who knows....my feelings are telling my diff...at the moment....

thanks sailorleo..

yeah lol he's gonna murder the man he thinks she loves so he can get the pearl..is that really doing the right thing for her?


also peeps I wasnt getting aggressive eariler that was just my debating nature coming out again..sorry Willofthewisp if it seemed agressive.

Will wants the Pearl back, yes, so he can save his father, but look at the expression on his face right before he says he'd go get Jack back. He's angry, he looks over, he sees Elizabeth looking miserable and his face softens.


And IF Will is in fact going to be trading Jack...so what? Will has absolutely no reason to really like Jack at all. Maybe Jack had a brilliant plan to save him in the end, but for Will, Jack has toyed with him one time too many.


The third movie will show Will becoming more like a pirate, and becoming more like Jack. I think eventually the two men are going to repair their...I don't know if friendship is the right word...but I think that they will eventually become closer as the third movie wraps up.

except Jack actually came back for them all and died for them all...I think he was going to stay anyway..hence the lack of screaming down to the crew once Liz chained him there.

Jack has toyed with Will too much? Will has repeatedly screwed up Jack's plans in the past more so than Jack has screwed up his

Will was going to murder jack for no good reason in move one..he behaved like a racist who hates a certain type of person so much that they will treat them as things..as "it" and murder them because of his pure hatred towards them..He also considers how many people are going to die if he stabs the heart and the kraken is on the loose and he doesnt care..he still wants to stab it. Will is not a good man at all really..he's discriminative

the most honest REALLY is Jack and Norrington..Liz is the worst out of them all.

i want to know how Jones has the kragen under his control in the first place, i mean doesn't the kragen realize how powerful he is?

Dear God. It's hard to put into words how to shoot down Will, I wish upon a shooting star that I had a sniper rifle right now. Lol.

Joking.

And about the EDGE {E/J} being the only ship that would work if Will died, what the fck is that about. Honestly, and you say WE shoot down your EW {E/W}.

Elizabeth doesn't HAVE to stay with Will, it's her moral that KEEPS her TIED DOWN to him. She wouldn't have stayed with him if she hadn't gotten herself worked up with stuffing the pirate life. Think about it, Elizabeth has to do the same, think.

Just think about the future, and I don't think she'll much like the future William could offer her. Honestly, she DOESN'T want to be a prim and proper lady living in her drawing room and sitting for most of her day. She didn't want that life when she was LIVING IT, would she want it after she's HAD A TASTE OF PIRACY {And Jack}.

I don't think so, it's way to backtracking like. T&T wouldn't WASTE money on TWO sequals to put a DEVELOPING RELATIONSHIP INTO IT!

I believe that Elizabeth loves Jack as a man, and she loves Will too, sure, but as a son...a brother. Not as one of those 'shiver if he touches her' loves. Besides, Will is not that good for Elizabeth. She'd be the superior in the relationship, I don't think he could give her more that chaste kisses.

She needs a man, Will is too soft on her. Jack CHALLENGES HER, Will treates her like a porcline doll that would break any minute, he thinks she's a lady after she dresses, lies, kills, acts and IS A PIRATE!

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, IT'S ALL RIGHT INFRONT OF YOU. I'm all good for you EW fans just saying that they'll make up in AWE, but, honestly, don't delude yourself with DMC. DMC wasn't really the focus point of EW love. It really wasn't, a kiss or two fine...but no REAL connection.

And Will gave her a gun, wow. Amazing. No way. That's impossible.

He MUST have given her a telepathic signal of love, right? Yeah, sure...delude yourself.

Appologise if offended by my mean, bad bad {TRUE!} words.

Elizabeth's morals? Elizabeth seems to be having issues with her morals, in case you haven't noticed. She CHAINED JACK UP TO DIE...regardless of what that reason was.


That screams "IMMORAL" and possibly "CRAZY" to me. So yeah...I don't think her morals are keeping her with Will. It's just your way to justify what isn't there.


Also, this idea that she would have been prim and proper? Please. Maybe, if getting in trouble with the law hadn't happened, she would have been in society a bit more....


But she DIDN'T learn how to use a sword on her own. WILL taught her. He taught her...and I bet you that she was right beside him in that forge every free minute she had, learning about smithing, because THAT is how Elizabeth is.


She is a doer. She would never have sat back and let Will just work...she would want to be involved in the process.


Elizabeth is not superior to Will in anyway. Rather, she is superior in certain things, just as Will is superior to her in certain ways. They FIT together, they complement each other.


Think of it like...music. Sure, it's fine when you have two people who are on the same octave, singing the same notes, but it isn't...exciting. BUT, if you add another voice into the mix, on a different octave, singing different notes that compliments the others...suddenly there is interest.


And that, is where the interest in Will and Elizabeth is. They are the same, but not, and their differences compliment each other so that their relationship is beautiful.


If you watch all the W/E moments in DMC...the ways their eyes lock together, the slight touches, the gentle, unconscious way their hands meet and touch each other, their kiss, the hug...the way they protect each other, the way they do ANYTHING to get to each other or to save each other...


I watched the J/E kiss...and I watched the W/E kisses last night on youtube. Right after kissing Jack, Elizabeth gets this look on her face...I see no love there.


I tried. What I saw was anger, hatred...she leans in for another kiss because THAT is the selfish impulse that Jack was talking about. She wanted to taste what selfishness was like, and she did with Jack, and even though she leaned in a bit, she still moved back and away from him.


She didn't want that. She didn't want HIM. Her choice was made right there on that ship. If she loved Jack...I think she would have stayed with him, fought with him, died with him. That's how Liz IS. She's a doer, remember?


She didn't. She left him, and went with Will. End of story. Jack is dead, Will is alive...her choice was made.

Sorry your theory dont make sense Surreal.



WHY THE HELL SHE WAS CRYING IN TIAS HUT??!! She made the choice to go with Will she forced herself to go and she didnt look happy about the choice. She thought by kissing the man her temptation will be satisfied but it had gone worse! All this plan of chaining him up it wasnt because she didnt want him, on the contrary!!! She chained him up bc the temptation was too much her heart was giving out to much.

How will you explain the way her face lights up and sees Jack that he came to the rescue. How the balls can you explain the way she hold on to him while he was trying to aim the kraken. If thats not a loving gesture then I dont know what is. Miss Swann ended up exactly doing what Mr Sparrow said she will do. "To act on a slefish impulse" she did it for herself. Not for Will not even the crew-she chained him up because she didnt want to make herself look bad to Will and the others by knowing that she let herself fall for a pirate. Elizabeth's problem is that she tries too hard to be good and ends up being worse. Then wants to make everybody believe that shes a saint with a moral center when shes just simply a horny, confused, love-struck girl who fell for Jack Sparrow.

Elizabeth is crying in the house because she killed a guy. She KILLED someone, and she is not a killer. Have you ever taken the life of anything besides a mosquito or a fly? I don't think most J/E shippers look at aspect of Jack's death. Thus far, Elizabeth has only ever stabbed at undead pirates. She's never actually had a kill, per se, even if death has been an indirect result of her actions.


Taking a life is NOT easy. Especially not for a woman in that time period. Her reaction is similar to a soldier's who has made a first kill. She's shaken by what she's done.


If you think that calling Elizabeth a crazed, love-sick girl is a great defence for J/E, think again. You've basically ruined a brilliant, wonderful character that TnT worked hard to create. Instead of the brave, fiercely independent, wonderful, loyal woman that is Elizabeth, you made her out to be a nutcase who is about as shallow as a person can possibly be.


As far as hanging onto Jack and her being happy he's there....normal human reactions. Also, it's plot devicy, to make J/E er...'obvious'. Like I said, Jack is dead, Will is alive. That's the end of the triangle.

how can that be the end of the triangle if they're going to bring jack back?

The writers said that if they never made another movie, DMC has the closure on the triangle, although they would have wrapped up the DJ storyline differently.


The triangle, for the writers, is resolved.

Originally posted by Surreal_44
Elizabeth is crying in the house because she killed a guy. She KILLED someone, and she is not a killer. Have you ever taken the life of anything besides a mosquito or a fly? I don't think most J/E shippers look at aspect of Jack's death. Thus far, Elizabeth has only ever stabbed at undead pirates. She's never actually had a kill, per se, even if death has been an indirect result of her actions.


Taking a life is NOT easy. Especially not for a woman in that time period. Her reaction is similar to a soldier's who has made a first kill. She's shaken by what she's done.


If you think that calling Elizabeth a crazed, love-sick girl is a great defence for J/E, think again. You've basically ruined a brilliant, wonderful character that TnT worked hard to create. Instead of the brave, fiercely independent, wonderful, loyal woman that is Elizabeth, you made her out to be a nutcase who is about as shallow as a person can possibly be.


As far as hanging onto Jack and her being happy he's there....normal human reactions. Also, it's plot devicy, to make J/E er...'obvious'. Like I said, Jack is dead, Will is alive. That's the end of the triangle.

i think that if she didn't love jack then she wouldn't have been crying
i get what you're saying about the crying because it was the first person she killed, but elizabeth isn't a typical woman of that time period, keria said herself that she's a modern time girl stuck in the 1700's. would be you crying if you killed someone to save you're own ass?i wouldn't unless i had feelings for them.

and sure that could have been the end of the love triangle and she could have ended up with will, but thats not how it happened, they're bringing back jack-'cause sexy's gone right now and only jack can bring sexy back(not JT-lol)

First off, let me preface this by saying that while I do ship J/E, I am not a die hard. I love W/E almost equally, but prefer J/E. In otherwords, my opinion is more objective than it sounds. I actually like Will, and I agree with what the writers are doing with his character in AWE. Ok, back to the task at hand.

On DMC being the end of the series:

Well, yes it would have been resolved, but look at how it was resolved. It was resolved with Elizabeth choosing to kiss Jack in a very passionate manner and chaining him to the mast. (You have to admit whether you're W/E or J/E that she might have picked a different way to chain him to the mast. She's a smart girl, so there was more to that decision than meets the eye).

Not only did she choose to do that, but that choice was seen by Will. Do you see why that's important? If DMC had indeed been the end, then yes, she went back to Will, but their relationship would never be the same! You can see that from his reaction as she got back into the boat. There's a rift between them that will never be healed, whether he softens towards her or not.

If you've read the leaked script, and you've made comments about how Will reacts rashly, you can see that the outcome of that decision has altered forever their story. Elizabeth's decision will continue to have repercussions, mainly on the way that it's so severely effected Will. I'm not saying that they won't be able to work things out. Anything is possible, I'm just saying that I'll be surprised if they can because of some of Will's choices.

The writers have said that Jack's character hasn't changed so much as it has been revealed. I think the same can be said for Will in AWE. Elizabeth's choice and his reaction to her choice has shed knew light on his character, and it's not such a flattering picture. His willingness to rush to rash action, which seemed like such a positive attribute in the first two movies has become his fatal flaw.

Will has shown time and again that he doesn't always think first about the consequences of his actions. It's not so much that the triangle has been resolved, because there are still some hanging questions that need to be answered, mainly, did Elizabeth really make the right choice in returning to Will. (I'm not saying this to provoke you, but it's an honest, objective question). Not to mention, that also leaves Jack's feelings unresolved, and the writers have made no qualms about insinuating that Jack feels more than what is said in DMC. In my opinion, I think that, since the writers have specifically stated that AWE will be Will's movie, that it will be his choices that will resolve the matter of the triangle. In the leaked script of AWE, Will's anger has set him down a dangerous path. I'm not saying that he'll drive Elizabeth into Jack's waiting arms or anything like that. I'm saying that his flaws are beginning to show. Another essential question to the outcome of the series will be, Can Will realize his flaws, accept them and love them both in himself and in Elizabeth? Or, can he accept that Elizabeth is a pirate and a good woman? At this point, and with only half the script, it's hard to say what his decision will be.

Surreal44. Hunny bunch..I'm really sorry people thought you were the reason I left last night..It wasn't you lol. I was just stressed. I was only gonna leave for like a day or so cuz I just needed some time to think.

What Elizabeth did at the end of DMC shows us more about her feelings for Jack rather than Will. If she knew as a certainty that she loved Will and he was the only man for her and Jack was nothing to her..then she would have never felt the need to personally make sure a man was removed from her life "for good" Why did she make such an overly dramatic statment? People only make statmentslike that when they are trying to prove to themselves that they dont need something in their lives.. That was not an act of certainty..that was an act of pure fear and desperation.

It was fear of emotions she is feeling for Jack. Just as he came back they clearly sky rocketed, he was made to look as if he was an angel sent from heaven to protect her, there was even a halo of light to suggest this. I feel this is the moment it all became far too much for her when it came to Jack.

Will came back before this remember, she ran to him. She could have shown us all there that Will was the most important man in her life. But oh how quickly the situation returned to Jack? She wasn't concerned about Will and his father..all the struggle he wen through.. All emotions returned to Jack in that scene.

Notice how the facial expressions were the opposite of what you would expect in that last scene?

Jack had a face that said: I'm winning against you
Elizabeth had a face that said: I'm losing against you

very strange when you consider he's about to die and she's going to live and return to "her one true love"

You would expect her to look different to that if she felt she was doing what she really wanted...but her face shows us that its not what she wants at all. She didnt look as if she was gaining what she wanted..She looked as if she was losing something she really wants.

And if Jack felt he had lost her to Will..well He wouldnt be smiling like that I can assure you.

Jack knows whats really going on with her..She sees him as a tempting threat...one that if he's with her could make her leave Will...and she loves Will (IMO as a brother/mother) so she doesnt want to hurt him. She's very over protective of him. She has recently seen how her choice to leave norrington for Will has ruined his life. She probably doesnt want to leave Will for Jack and ruin Will's life..

But dear ole Will? His priorities have switched around. Liz is no longer No1 to him. His father is...so funnily enough..He is the one choosing someone else over her.

Ooh, such fun responses.


First off, I just have to say that this thread is becoming a rather fun debate, and I'd like to compliment everyone on their theories/ideas. They are all wonderful to read.


Now, onto the debate.



mmoviemagic said:




Hopefully you will never be in this situation. I can tell you from experience that the taking of any life is never easy. I can also tell you that killing a human is something far beyond the scope of what you or I can imagine. I have quite a few friends who are soldiers, police officers, and FBI officers.


I can tell you, that in fact, you can, and often times do, cry, when taking the life of someone. I've held grown men in my arms often enough as they fight their inner demons and weep about the things that they've done and the choices they've made in combat or high stress situations, and none of them even knew the people personally.


Elizabeth did know Jack personally, and I believe quite strongly that this is why she is crying. She left Jack to die. Even the writers have mentioned how one of the reasons that Elizabeth did that to Jack was to punish him for what he had done to Will.


Jack abandoned Will (or so it seems to Will and Elizabeth) to the Flying Dutchman, so Elizabeth is getting revenge by abandoning Jack. The thing is, however, that she does have a moral compass, and her decision ended up being far more difficult for her to deal with than what she had expected.


As far as the triangle being resolved, I don't think that bringing Jack back has to do with it. I think that Elizabeth wants to redeem herself, and correct what she's done.

Since you are so honest, savvysparrow, I might as well be frank too...I could see how J/E end up together. I really can. There is a good, logical argument for them ending up together...but there are a few reasons I don't think it will be that way.


But first, let me dissect your excellent post....






I don't really think there was more to this decision than that she needed to trick Jack, and this was the best way to do it. Words don't work with him, she's not strong enough to force him to do it...so what is left to her? Kissing him, of course. This also ties into what Jack said, that she would want to taste what being selfish is like. Elizabeth is satisfying her own selfish curiosity. Notice that she leans in slightly, but Jack doesn't move, and instead of closing the distance, Elizabeth pulls away.


Triangle resolved. Jack didn't want her (he accepted what she had done, the same as he accepted what the crew of the Pearl did to him in the first movie), but he made no motion to touch her, to kiss her back, or to kiss her again. Now, I am not saying that he still won't have feelings for her in the third installment (once you love Elizabeth, it seems, you just don't stop), but as TnT have said, the triangle is ended. It's complete, finite, done.

Yes, Will saw the kiss (plot device!), but look at her expression immediately after kissing Jack. I don't see love, I don't see passion--at least not the kind that indicates love...I see determination, hatred and anger. After a few seconds I see regret, but there is no love.





Of course it's changed. I don't think, once they get Jack back, that he's going to fall on his knees, declare his undying (hehe) love for Lizzie and instantly forget that she chained him up and left him to die. And I didn't expect Will to go, "Aw, shucks. She kissed Jack, but I love her so much I don't care."


His reaction was very human and realistic to what she had done. So yes, there is a rift, but I think they will eventually over-come that...especially if it all comes to the surface about what she had done. Remember, I think things would have been fixed between them if Tia had not interrupted.


I'm honestly convinced that most of this is...plot devicey. By that, I mean that all of these interruptions of Will and Elizabeth's relationship is done simply to draw out the tension, to see whether or not they will end up together.






I hate to even use a leaked script for a debate such as this, since the premise of my debate is based on the evidence from the first two movies, and though my knowledge of film-making is woefully inadequate, a lot of things can happen or change from a rough draft to a final script.


Quite a few of the situations may have been changed, dialogue might be entirely different, and half-way through the plot, the writers may have decided they hated everything they wrote and pitched it all (not that I have ever, ever done such a thing with anything that I've written).


IF the leaked script is true, I can see plenty of ways that the gap between Will and Elizabeth can be diminished, and how they can overcome their difficulties. I think I'll start up a thread to discuss where the script left off (Will and Jack fighting), and write out how I envision things could work from there, and then invite everyone else to come up with their ideas. Maybe we can all come up with the actual ending! Woot!


Anyway, back to this debate...I really like the questions you have about the relationship, savvysparrow, but the writers did say that the triangle was resolved. So maybe you still have questions (I still have questions about Scruffington!), but I stand by the idea that W/E will somehow end up together by the end of AWE.

LovelyOne said:





Well I appreciate you saying that. I didn't want you to leave, so I'm glad that you are back. Now, all fluffiness aside...





When did Elizabeth say that she removed Jack from her life for good? I don't remember that line, but I may have missed it. Thanks!!! Obviously, I can't respond to this since I can't recall that line, so if you'd be kind enough to give me the quote, I'll ponder and see what I can come up with.



As for Will and his father, and the lack of discussion about that issue, Elizabeth and Will haven't exactly had a lot of time to discuss that in between all the sword fighting, running and attempting to get away from the Kraken.


I've mentioned before what I think about Elizabeth's expression, but Jack's is not one of love...he looks fully, completely, and utterly pleased. Elizabeth did what he knew she would...she tasted what it was like to be selfish. That's why he calls her a pirate. He does care for her...I would even dare say, that he loves her...but I do not think that he is IN love with her.


For one thing, Johnny Depp says that the proposal was a moment of weakness. Just a moment...that's really all it was to Jack. I do not think that he NEEDS Elizabeth, but that he WANTS her.


I think that Will NEEDS Elizabeth, and that if anything happened to her, he would follow wherever she went, whether it's in life...or death.

Dude, that's a little obessive.

Will isn't the kind of guy that would actually talk to any one even if they look like they're about to have an emotional breakdown. You could say that he understands that she needs her space and crap, but you don't see the thing about him. He doesn' talk to her about the kiss, he doesn't voice his anger or even tell her that he saw them. So now HE'S KEEPING SECRETS AND NOT EVEN LETTING ELIZABETH EXPLAIN HERSELF.

I think Jack is IN LOVE with Elizabeth. Don't you see the way he looks at her and the way he acts around her, he's like a junior kindergardiner that's pulling his crush's pigtail, cept this isn't just a crush.

When Elizabeth ran to Will and kissed him on that island with Davey's chest, did you even TRY TO LOOK AT THE EXPRESSION OF PURE HATRED AND JELIOUSY TOWARDS WILL, or did you cover you eyes and plug your ears incase your poor EW scene shatters into a million pieces?

Honestly, and Johnny Depp says he likes the moment of weakness of 'Ah Well' with Jack when ELIZABETH SAID SHE WAS READY TO GET MARRIED. HE WASN'T SAYING THAT JACK WAS PROPOSING OUT OF WEAKNESS, and even then, if he DID propose out of weakness, then it would be out of weakness for Elizbeth. Meaning that she made him weak 'in the knees' or just softened him up, maybe bringing out his soft side.

HMMMMMMMMMMMMM?!!

THINK ABOUT IT!

AND ON THE ISLAND WHEN WILL SAID HE REUNITED WITH HIS FATHER, ELIZABETH TURNED STRAIGHT TO JACK AND QUESTIONED HIM ABOUT LIEING TO HER. SHE DIDN'T CARE ABOUT STUPID WILL'S FATHER OR WILL, SHE JUST WANTED A REASON TO GET THE SUBJECT BACK TO JACK, OR SHE CARED MORE ABOUT JACK LIEING TO HER THAN ABOUT WILL.

Why do EW's delude themselves....?

I'll never know...

Originally posted by PirateDiva
OMG....Seriously!!! DMC was all about the COMPASS and JACK AND LIZ OF COURSE!!!!!! So the compass cant be over analyzed...it's practically the whole point of the MOVIE!!!

i have to say i agree w/ PirateDiva, mates

that is true,
elizabeth only cares about jack lying to her. why should this be a big deal to her if she wasn't in love with him? find she can have a 5 second 'wtf'-but instead she makes it this dramatic thing by walking over to jack mad and what not but then she should happy for will and his father-that just went over her head.

and i think johnny even realizes the deep connection between liz and jack, he's saying that he loves jack at his weakness-who's the only person that you're weak infront of? the person you love-and is he weak infront of anyone else in the movie? nope

and what about norrington? he says that there was a time where he'd do anything for her to look like that when she's thinking about him. if she was just lusting jack then he wouldn't have said that because norrington wanted her to love him not lust him

i can actually see E/W ending up together, but only if something major changes jack, or will for that matter, seeing as elizabeth really is a pirate at heart, and needs adventure, not to be stuck in port royal as a blacksmiths wife. she needs to have the freedom only jack can give her at the moment, in time, maybe Will will be able to give her that freedom too, but a blacksmiths life isnt the one she wants. if u look at the opening scene of the first movie thats what she wants.

just to make the post above clear, i am a J/E shipper, im just stating how i see where the E/W shippers have a point

Originally posted by -savvychick-
i can actually see E/W ending up together, but only if something major changes jack, or will for that matter, seeing as elizabeth really is a pirate at heart, and needs adventure, not to be stuck in port royal as a blacksmiths wife. she needs to have the freedom only jack can give her at the moment, in time, maybe Will will be able to give her that freedom too, but a blacksmiths life isnt the one she wants. if u look at the opening scene of the first movie thats what she wants.

i agree with this, i can see EW being together, i'm not narrow minded-but i think that its not what elizabeth wants. she needs freedom. i think that ONLY jack could give this to her. i guess will could(though i can't picture it) but jack is the real pirate-the thing she's always wanted and loved

if there wasn't a 3rd movie then i could see will and liz ending up together. but since there isn't-i can't see it happening. otherwise everyone would end up where they started and there would have been no point of the trilogy.

Every one has a point, I know that there is a huge chance of EW hooking up, but then again, if that's the ending they're going to force feed me...I'll just walk out of the theatre and rip up all my Elizabeth posters. ELIZABETH IS NOT A WOMAN THAT COULD BE BARTERED ABOUT AND HANDLED BY SO MANY MEN IN HER LIFE. WILL WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO GIVE HER EVERYTHING SHE WANTS FACE IT! HE CAN NOT BE A PIRATE NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES HE TRIES, HE JUST DOESN'T HAVE THAT NATURE.

JACK IS A REAL PIRATE, HE COULD GIVE LIZZIE WHAT SHE WANTS.

Look at how he treats her comapare to Will. He calls her Lizzie from a very early stage and she lets him, while Will was having trouble calling her ELIZABETH WHEN SHE ASKED HIM TO CALL HER THAT. Jack likes to tease her and make her feel alive, he encourages her love for the sea apposed to Will who lockes her up and makes her wear tight corsets and wants her to bare his children and cook for him..

Jack and Elizabeth have a deep bond, Will can't ever have that with her because she and he have different out looks on life and everything about it. Will doesn't give a damn if she wanted to be free and sail the seas, cause did he ever TALK TO HER ABOUT IT, NO. HE NEVER ONCE TALKED TO HER ABOUT THE SEA AND WHAT SHE WANTED.

Jack does that every second!

EW fans just don't have much to cling to in DMC, or CotBP for that matter. There's just no connection between EW.

there really isn't...let's see they try to kiss below deck in the first one....but then he gets all mad when she's trying to open up to her
then theres that time where they were in the cave, but then he ruins it by saying you should get back to your fiance or whatever
he's an idiot
other sexual times between them...hmm...no
i mean they kissed one time in both movies....wow

oh and i forgot about when they were in jail-so one scene...

Originally posted by *jcd*gmc*
i have to say i agree w/ PirateDiva, mates

Why Thank You my Friend!!!

LOL, he could've given her a kiss. But he had to rip away, when he knew she could've died. Could've been hung, and then he'd never get to kiss her again. And she would've died not knowing TRUE love, Will, a person that would leave without a touch a kiss, a person that can't talk or connect to you, was NOT Elizabeth's TRUE love.

And he'd probably just tell her to wait till their wedding day for...you know...And then she'd in that jail, not knowing the happiness of /being/ with your love. Well, if Jack were there he'd tell Governor Swann and those gaurds to go for an hour or two... if you know what I mean.

No connection with EW, just none whatsoever.

lol, yeah and i dont think jack would have left her there, he would have busted her out and taken her with him-
but if he HAD to leave her there he'd be like, alright this might be our last time seeing eachother-so lets....you know.....

LOL, yeah. It's kinda sad that her FATHER had to burst her out and be the " PIRATE " instead of her FIANCE Will, who SUPPOSEDLY HAS PIRATE BLOOD. If an old man that never broke a law in his life sprung his daughter from jail, why couldn't a unuich with pirate blood do the same?

Because no matter how much pirate blood he has running through his viens, he will always be a whelp that desperatly tries to find something worthwhile in his life to shine and put in a closet.

And even Keira likes Jack more than Will, she doesn't say it straight out, but you could tell. She drops hints on how she was excited that Elizabeth got to have Jack as a love interest, LOVE INTEREST!

Yikes, bye bye Will.

Okay, I can easily see a W/E ending even though I don't want to. I'm not getting my hopes up, but I can see it happening.

I just want to counter the deal about Liz's expression when she kisses Jack. Her first expression once the kiss is over is that her teeth are gritted and her eyes are caged on him. It shifts to worried and anxious as she starts making excuses, then there is a very longing look. I don't think she is completely in love with him....YET. I think the whole thing about keeping him away from her by chaining him is only partially true and that she did do it mainly to save the others. It's just immoral, or pirate-like, to screw someone over in order to do that. So I'm not going to argue Liz is in love with Jack because she's not yet even though she's falling.

Jack's expression: Okay, he's about to die. Anyone would be panicking, screaming for help, trying to get loose. What does Jack do? He grins and leans in for another kiss. Other than being madly in love, I don't know what would stop a person that was about to die from saving themselves.

Surreal we appreciate your efforst in theories and all...but arent you forgetting Will is going to die?? HOw is liz gonna end up with Will?? By air? The story will be meaningless if jack goes with hookers and Liz stays as a virgin for the rest of her life. Might as well be a nun then.

I can see EW too. Willofthewisp..and I wouldn't like it..even if I wasn't a shipper I wouldn't like it. The second I came out of DMC (before I was a shipper) was basically: "Disney are doing the smart thing to make money Jack and Elizabeth is far more interesting to watch, they have more chemistry"

and it worked^^

yeah willofthewisp..

the facial expressions on both of the characters are so odd. you would think Jack would be the angry and desperate one..Liz would be feeling all superior..but no..its totally the other way around

Jack feels superior and Liz feels weak, angry and desperate as if she is losing the battle of trying to keep him out of her thoughts and desires.

liz thought she won him over but it all back fired. It turned out jack winning liz heart.

won him over? you mean as in love^^?
---------
If you think of DMC/AWE as like one movie/story (which it really is) and then think about how romances work in 1 movie/story

that 1 movie/story has been split in two..its kinda at the "disruption" moment in the budding relationship of Jack/Liz....not Will/Liz since they wernt even together in most of the movie/first half of the story

Its like: development of feelings, a moment when they are at bliss with one another and then there's the disruption where you are thinking "I hope things work out for them later"

Say the love story of Liz/Will in movie 1 was split in two. the end of part one would be the moment where there is a disruption between them I bet you...like the moment Will realised Liz was hiding the truth about the medallion from him

Surreal44. I think we can kinda look at Lizzies theme as a melodramatic theme..here is something I scanned in on another thread, Ignore the ticks:

http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/4586/melotr4.jpg
To me Liz and Jack are very melodramatic in character. Will isn't, he expresses his feelings openly quite a bit. Where as Jack/Liz speak through actions when it comes to eachother.

usually in a melodrama the female is introduced to something they want more than anything in the world(and it can be flipped round to be a man)..and they feel as if society is against them and that they shouldn't have it because its a "forbidden love". Will/Liz is not forbidden. Jack/Liz is forbidden.

when you look at those bullet points and such it really does ring true with the character of Elizabeth in this movie(even Jack)...and if this is a melodramatic theme then its not the Will/Liz relationship that is the main focal point . Its the Jack/Liz relationship that is the main focal point..and with Liz, she really does come across as a melodramatic character to me.I feel Jack/Liz are following the melodramatic route.and Will is following the "tragic" one..he does stab the heart and he's basically accepted that destiny already.

I think it's great that the last part of DMC has so many plausible interpretations. If you really think about it, that is a\mazing writing. It's phenomenal that two different people can look at the same exact scene and come to two very different conclusions.

Couple of things. The writers have said that the triangle has been resolved?! Where did I miss that quote? I want to read it! (I like to read what they say and dissect it because usually it always has a double meaning).

Anyway, it's hard to go on facial expressions when it comes to interpretations. I know film is a visual art, but facial expressions are so dodgy. You see hatred, I see determination and a little self-loathing. And I'm not saying that she didn't chain him to the mast to hold him accountable for his actions. She is one of the few characters who is capable of holding him accoutable. But I still believe there was more at work in her sacrificing him the way she did and I honestly don't know what it is. Call it a gut feeling.

(Small aside, I also wonder about Tia's interruption. I don't think she is the innocent that they've made her seem in DMC. There's something about her interest in Will that seems suspicious to me. She's up to something and I think she'll try to mannipulate him some how. Maybe you had the same impression?)

The writers have said that while there have been revisions to the rough draft script since it was leaked, that the bulk of it has stayed the same. I'm not saying that some things haven't changed. Apparently, the entire opening is completely different. I'm basing my opinion primarily on the overrall spirit of all the characters in the rough draft. If that makes any sense at all. I guess I see it more as character direction than anything. If the rough draft was a sketch of what they wanted to do in AWE, and you're right, it's hard to tell with only 56 pages, then I'd say it gives us something of an idea. Will's development makes a whole lot of sense in AWE.

The major issue I see is whether or not Will and Elizabeth can see their differences, examine them closely and decide whether or not they are still compatiable. I think in a lot of ways they are, especially if Will's knight in shinning armor facade continues to crack.

But, my question is, how do you explain Will's 'touch of destiny?' And how does Elizabeth fit into the picture? You have to admit that he's slightly blinded at the moment by his quest to aide his father. (There are a lot of moments in DMC where it seems as though Elizabeth is secondary, which who's to say isn't correct?). He seems more than willing to sacrifice the crew of the Blackpearl to go back and fight Davy Jones to rescue his father in DMC.

Gosh, I have so much to say about this whole entire topic but I'll refrain because everyone needs a chance to weigh in. Surreal, you've got me thinking!

One of the points:

"In melodramatic cinema, the interior emotions of the characters are expressed in means other than verbal Language: setting, color, music and other aspects in the mise en scene. Big emotions can sometimes not be put into words, and the feeling is displaced into other cinematic codes and signs"


Mise en scene is basally EVERY thing we see on the screen, say you freeze framed your DVD, so this means camera angles, lighting and props so yes thats the compass...and yes even the dog and its keys/bone willofthewisp lmao

things that cant be put into words are put into actions and anything else in a scene

also lines with double meanings

and facial expressions..the music in that last scene etc.

the opening shot IS suggestive to that line about the widow etc etc..

IMO anyways..

their emotions are expressed through other things in the mise en scene

so no I wouldn't say we are looking to deep into things my fellow J/E shippers..when it comes to supporting our ship...cuz its a melodramatic ship it seems

this explains why there are so many symbolic things/actions when it comes to Jack/Liz rather than straight forward words.(although that doesn't mean the words spoken between Jack/Liz don't have meaning) Its just the big, major emotions that are expressed through other things like actions, facial expressions, music, camera angles, lighting and the compass etc..the DOG, bone and keys (I will stick by that till the day I die I swear )

savvysparrow I kinda explained Will's destiny..would you not say he fits in with this:

The function of melodrama is to clarify (make clear) the moral choices we make every day. There is a clear distinction to be made between melodrama and tragedy. The latter usually features noble characters who are determined to pursue a certain goal. Sometimes in conflict with the gods themselves, even to the point of death. There is very little whining or moaning in the acceptance of their destiny because, they themselves have shaped it and take full responsibility for it




Jack/Liz actually fit in to the melodramatic category as characters where as Will fits into the "tragic" one as a character....just my opinion..and knowledge that he is one who stabs the heart because of that set goal in movie 2..to save his father and Elizabeth..he accepts it willingly in the salmon revision script I read too.



..look at that sheet i just posted

Sorry lovelyone! I didn't get a chance to look at what you wrote. What I wrote was actually in response to Surreal's post. I can only handle so much interesting and good infromation at one time.

Ok, your post. By the way, do you think they used mise un scen in the kiss scene. I thought it was interesting that their placement essentially made a triangle, and that Will initially starts in the background. But as the camera revolves, Will comes into the foreground. That may symbolize her choice, but that doesn't mean necessarily mean that it will remain her choice. As Governor Swann says in the first film: Sometimes the right decision if made for the wrong reasons can be a wrong decision....


And as for Will's touch of destiny. I actually agree. There is an element of the tragic in his character. And you're right about his defying the gods. Will's seeming disregard for his person and his willingness to take terrible risks is sort of evidence of this. In my opinion there are times where he is in danger and appears as though he's impervious to it. Like the scene where he is captured by the Pelegostas. He's in danger, with no real chance of winning, yet he thinks well enough of himself that he can fight all them. (Listen to his dialogue in this scene, as well as when he's surrounded by Davy Jones' crew.)

Excellent point lovely one! And welcome back!

They may have used mise en scene to express that triangle. Its interesting because it might signal why she's doing what she's doing. I don't see that as a final choice though, not at all also that Gov Swann line is OH SO INTERESTING! what a find!

..I also notice various other triangle moments in the movie. liekwhen all 3 men are holding their swords in the shape of a triangle..Its only Jack's who's pointing to her.

secondly when Liz has the compass, Jack/Norrie and will are all in a triangle. Jack being S/E, norrie S/W and Will N/E..It actually points to Jack..and that whole "true enough! this compass does not point north" thing is interesting lol...

pretty much everything between Jack/Liz and the triangle is symbolic or action filled..its not really words to each other..the only deep convo they had was the curiosity scene..and even the words seem meaningless when Liz is trying to kiss him..her actions are the dominant thing in the scene..its a very melodramatic theme in this movie, especially with Liz/Jack because they are the only ones with the compass pointing between to conflicting things where as Will is much more straight forward..which is the tragic route I'm afraid to say.

and thanks for th welcome back

this one line from that sheet is very intersting in terms of Jack/Liz and how they might be feeling..the compass shows them what they desire most and also what they feel to be their own morals etc. Elizabeth wants to save Will the very most..but at the same time she wants Jack the very most. Jack wants to have Liz the very most but at the same time he wants to only care about himself.

"what is the right thing to do in this situation? How can I reconcile my desire with my own personal sense of morality?"

the compass isnt about moral its about desire. Is that what you're trying to say?

I think its to do with moral and desire..Will is the moral, Jack is the desire

So ok. The compass pointed to the chest at first because in her moral sense, she wanted to save Will. So then it pointed to Jack bc in her desire she wanted Jack.

yeah pretty much IMO^^

Surreal mentioned Scruffington earlier and I actually wanted to go back and address him. In addition to having great respect for Will, I have a small crush on Norrington as a character. I think his story is so beautifully written, but never gets the attention it deserves. Anyway, what I'm beginning to notice is some similarities between Will and Norrington. Obviously, I'm aware that they're different characters and that their story lines aren't exactly a like. But though they're in different positions, they share some interesting qualities. (This relates to the triangle blocking Lovelyone, so there is a point, I promise).

What actually occurred to me is that in the scene where all three men are fighting for control of the chest, is that Norrington and Will are left to battle each other. They're on the same playing field, evenly matched, in similar positions in terms of where they stand with Elizabeth. (Not exactly, but from a certain point of view). If you look at the battle between the three men, Jack gets to the heart of the matter. They aren't really fighting about reclaimed honor, or about the chest, but for Elizabeth. Meanwhile, it's Norrington who engages Will, and Jack who escapes with the prize. Here's my point: These two men are so embroilled in their fight to possess what it is that they want, that they end up losing it because of their short sightedness. They're both so caught up with the here and now that they fail to see the bigger picture. (Certainly that's some of Will's flaw, and you can say it was also Norrington's.

Also, the whole thing with tragedy versus melodrama. The same analysis can be applied to Norrington. He's so obsessed with regaining his honor that he defies the gods, and the good man he once was to obtain his goals. Like Will, he also uses a similar dialogue to Will when he is faced with a seemingly impossible situation. He's so certain of his sword fighting skills that he challenges a bar filled with angry drunks, claiming that he can take them all one by one. Both Norrington and Will lack a certain amount of Hubris. In this way, their tragic qualities mirror any Greek hero who has ever met his downfall. Eventually, the gods do get even.

Also, there are scenes in the rough draft script that suggest a certain parallel. They're both essentially good men who have lost their way. Norrington has become a pawn of Beckett in a sacrifice to regain his position of power, Will has sacrificed all that has made him good and noble to take his vengance against Jack.

So yes, Scruffington is interesting, and for more reasons than his supposed fate in the rough draft script. (I sincerely hope he doesn't snuff it, because he's one of the better characters).

my question here is...what would she have done had Jack remained silent?

She didnt look as if she was going to move..at all until he said something.

EDIT-sorry savvysparro I posted this before I realised you posted something *goes to read*

Lovely what do you mean in your question?

chiki..I implied that Liz may have given in and unlocked him had he remained silent..but Jacks word seemed to prompt her to leave.

WOW Savvy..you know what!! everything you said there..EVERYTHING! makes so much sense to me. I study Classical Civilisations as well as Film studies..and its amazing how the two really to tie in together in terms of ancient greek literature and modern day film..even old films too..its all one basic pattern of story telling and character development.

That whole thing about hubris..i had to learn that too.

I agree the gods get even with characters like Will/Norrie..they make their destiny what it is due to their own actions and so they fully except it in the long run...Usually the character is very bold and does stupid things, too much arrogance..then the character does something dishonest and disrespectful to the gods (sometimes they know, sometimes they don't)

Oedipus keeps coming to mind when I think of Will and his Destiny..as does Hephaestus (cant spell lol)

Antigone (female based tragedy) I cant actually link in with Elizabeth and how her character behaves..she is very much the melodramatic character and not the tragic one.

Jack is also melodramatic in character.

I think she was waiting for him to denounce her actions. I think she was waiting for him to condemn her for essentially tricking him, but she got an unexpected answer. Pirate in this sense is meant from Jack as that he admired her all the more for her decision and the way in which she went about things. Jack admires a person who "does whatever is necessary". In this instance, the kiss and the treachery was necessary to save the life of the crew. But the fact that he didn't denounce her and was so willing to go to his death fuels her guilt and may actually hint to her his feelings. (As if his coming back to the Pearl wasn't enough).


And while we're on the subject of the kiss. Though Elizabeth and Will are very similar in nature, even more so now that his character is venturing into darker territory, I think there is a small, noticable difference in how it is they achieve their goals. While Elizabeth's kiss was motivated in part by selfish motivation, she does essentially have the best interests of the crew at heart. If you're of the mind that Elizabeth's greatest desire is Jack and not Will, that makes her decision all the more poignant. She's sacrificing what she wants most, for the good of the cause. (Not unlike Jack, who admits for the first time that the Pearl is 'only a ship'.)

In contrast, Will's greatest desire in DMC, above rescuing Elizabeth is to rescue his father. Yet, he is willing to sacrifice the crew of the Black Pearl and put them all in great danger to take on the Flying Dutchman. Even in AWE, he's willing to put the entire crew at risk to steal back the Pearl to save his father.

Just an interesting and different perspective on the matter of the kiss.

very interesting points^

but I just dont think the pearl is what he wants most anymore.(constatly his compass was pointing at Elizabeth and away from her then at her again..not the pearl)

I think he's actually giving up Elizabeth here(what he desires most) in order to do the honorable cause(stay behind so they can escape)

..look at his face when gibbs shouts "abandon ship or abandon hope" he looks very pained at the thought of Elizabeth leaving him.(after a long shot showing us that he's just staring at her)

He actually walks in the opposite diretion, when she chains him he's silent..clearly leaving the pearl was never his true intent.

I think Elizabeth realises this later on.

then this raises another question in my mind. What If Jack had told her that he was going to stay before she kissed him (un-jackish to say it aloud like Will does BTW)

Would the feelings we see after the betrayal in Tia's hut be evident in this scene instead? Would she have kissed him anyway?

I would say the answer to both is YEPPERS

but the kiss may have been different, It may not have been so lust filled...its like she was just getting all she could from Jack before she chained him there..before she "removed him" from her life..

That's what I was saying, or what I meant to say. Sometimes I don't always get down what I mean to say in the correct fashion. I was saying that at one time, the Pearl was the most important thing in his life and he's willing to abandon that now for Elizabeth. Actually, you're probably saying that this illustrates what a selfless character Jack can be at times, which is true. People say that he's such a rotten guy, but look at what he's willing to give up at times. He was avoiding Elizabeth and Port Royal at the beginning of the movie, I think out of respect for Will.

So...Jack calling her pirate is like a way to say leave< ill stay, I will do what you want me to? no no thats not it-Im wrong

But you think Liz was expecting Jack to be scared and loose his cool while she chained him up?

Now im not sure, but what seems to me Liz left him chained bc she was angry that Jack called her a pirate. And smiled during the process. Angry also that Jack could give her such temptation in making her lean in for another kiss. So if Jack wouldve said nothing, she would unchain him? Im not sure about this though, I think she wouldve chained him anyways bc of her growing feelings for jack. Its the only way she has to stay with Will.

yeah its like He's given up the pearl for her, long ago IMO, right from the start of DMC. He has everything he thought he wanted yet the pearl is no longer enough for him hence the fact his compass points to Liz

At the end He'll also give up her(who he now desires most) in order for her to be safe. I think he was gonna stay..and it pained him so much to let her go there..you see that long shot of him just staring at her then Gibb's line about abandoning ship..he looks pained (its short but you see it) he then walks in the opposite direction..then he looks really sad and depressed wern Liz comes in close proximity..

now that Kiss.. Itchanged something in both characters. It was essential to both characters' development..actually all 3 character are now changed after that kiss. Each is affected by it.

Jack's desire turned to love there IMO (compass doesnt show you what you love)

Liz's desire is still there..its actually magnified now because she gave into temptation and she's clearly still not had enough..she has all the potential to love him by movie 3.

Will's actions in movie 3 are now souly based on that kiss IMO

I can kinda see where the next thing is heading with Jack (guessing mostly)..and its not giving up her so she can be safe..its him giving up something else more major so that she can be safe...

Or for Liz that kiss may signal the end of lust driven feelings towards Jack...its just the deeper feelings left now...which are actually rather behind in terms of maturity unlike the lust she expresses. Its not love yet when it comes to Jack..I dont think..This can and probably will only happen right at the end of AWE. It took Jack that long for it to move from desire/caring for Liz to shift into love.

I think Jack's lust is now gone...its just love/respect

Another good question to ask is, would Jack have stayed with or without the kiss? Were Elizabeth's actions for naught? I think it's probably that they were. So then, it becomes even more apparent that the kiss was less about Jack's actions and more about Elizabeth's.

to quote what I said earlier :



Its basically what Liz does..she gives up what she desires to do the right thing^^ So yes they are very similar

but that Kiss changed things around yet again for each character..Its whats going to shape the next movie.

Would Jack walk away from Elizabeth again if the situation called for it. If it was what was in the best interest for all involved? This is the next question.

No I think the kiss/actions shifted everything around again..he was going to stay anyway but that happened meaning an emotional shift for each character..

I think elizabeth is going to be very chaste now as is Jack...Now the lust/desire is washed away and for Jack its now love and acceptance. Elizabeths lust is washed away but not sure about the desire/deeper feelings..she's not crossed over into love yet.

Will's actions in movie 3 will also now link back to that kiss.

Have you taken a really indepth look at the rough draft script? People are so quick to dismiss it because it's a rough draft, but I think of it more as a frame work.

It's hard to say what Elizabeth's deeper feelings are, because she's more confused than the audience. I think that she hoped that the kiss resolve whatever conflict layed within her, but in all actuality, it raised more questions. So much so, that I think it will cause her to examine Will more closely. And he's not exactly presenting his best side. But, in all fairness, it's quite possible that she may finally see that he's her match in that it's their imperfections that make them so perfect for each other. (I can see that being a Disney sort of ending, with Jack having learned that he's a good man).

I think of a lot of it hinges on what Will's reaction will be to her informing him that she was willing to murder Jack. His faith in her will be shaken on more than one level at that point, because she's commited not one, but two sins. In the rough draft script, Jack is willing to forgive the Kracken for murdering him, and is able to admire it all the more, but Will at that particular moment is not. I think that says a lot about their characters.

she need not have done that to Jack to chain him to the mast. There could have been other means..the kiss was cinematically uneeded unless it is signifying some sort emotional shift for her and Jack. I think the aftermath of the kiss is the most important thing to look at for both her and Jack, not the kiss itself

imagine they had taken that kiss out and then we se Jack smiling like that..and then LIz almost kissing him before she leaves..it would have been far more clear what that shift was.

..and the fact Will sees this it's a shift for him too. Thats the most important thing to notice when it comes to his character.

even the music before she does it is melodramatic..its signaling that this very moment is important..things are about to change forever for her, Jack and even Will. IMO She's spoiling her feast by eating the waffle first.

the change in music after the kiss is SO important to spot too..its suddenly expresses the change caused by the kiss IMO..its like a sad, desperate music saying "I want you so much but I cant have you"

such a contrast from the..raising chorus just moments before.

YEs what you said in that last paragraph makes lots of sense..I often felt that Liz in movie 2 resemles the kraken..a force of "lust" on her behalf coming after him..we see the Kraken...you know what all overJack before it kills him ...Then the kraken also dies..which signals that Liz's lust for Jack is not going to be there in movie 3..this may confuse us but trust me..she's Jack's "shape-shifter" and he understands her now because he recently got to stage 9 (reward) he's reconciled himself with the female, meaning all Liz's actions and shape shifting is now clear to him and he understands it all as one thing instead of lots of confusing and "irritating" everchanginf atributes of the opposite sex.

and Yes Jack respects things when they beat him..so it explains the peas in the pod scene(movie 1), the moments after Jack is chained there(movie 2), and what he says about the dead Kraken.

sorry 3rd post in a row then I'm off to bed.

the shape shifting woman

when you look at the Odyssey..and Odysseus (Jack) he encounters many women on his journey and he learns various things from each..but the women in the story actually resemble the many different traits of the female sex(to the male that is)..all it takes is 2 females "Calypso/sirens" for all of these ever changing aspects to be tied together for Odysseus and finally he is returned to the man he was before (after 7 years of hibernation as a character)..and so it all ties into him wanting Penelope. That is the shape shifting of that story I believe

PotC doesn't have enough female characters to do this. There is Calypso But Elizabeth is the shape shifter in Jack's eyes. Meaning we see one female trait now and another later..She may resemble the sirens/calypso in a way at the end of DMC..but when Jack comes back she's going to resemble Nausicaa (the pure virgin) Odysseus now covers his nakedness/masculinity that so recently dominated his existence and shows honor and decency all after finally surrendering to the vast feminine (Poseidon's sea) in Jacks case Davy's "vagina" shaped Kraken lmao..he's then reborn again from the waves..etc etc..he now understands all the women he comes across and finally he returns to Penelope...who IMO is Elizabeth (the trur LIz Jack now understands) Jack should get Elizabeth at the end after she's stopped behaving like "Nausicaa" (who wants Oddy as a husband but is still concerned with her modesty/honor..so she makes him walk many paces behind her as she enters the city. But she is VERY taken with Odysseus and his honor/respect and decency he shows her but she tries hard not to show that she is so taken by him.)


Its really hard to explain. Probably seems like I'm blabbing on about loads of crap lol..probably am (very tired)

Isn't it great how you can apply Greek mythology to pretty much everything? If you really wanted to, you could also apply Biblical allusions too, but I'll leave that to your superior knowledge.
And who says that high school/college English classes are a waste of time? Somehow I don't think the writers had all of this in mind when they were coming up with the story, but it does illustrate why it is that Pirates is such a popular series. It incorporates themes and characters that have been beloved and popular from the earliest civilizations.

Ok, once more into the fray. Obviously, the writers had something in mind when they decided to kill Jack off in DMC. The true cliff hanger of DMC was not Jack's death, we all knew he was coming back, but the lack of resolution with the triangle. They killed Jack off with the idea of having him be "reborn". There's a lot of imagery of life and death, (sunrise, sunset) in the script that I think illustrates this. He's turned over a new leaf and there will be even more light shinned on what it is that made Jack who he is.

What I've noticed is that the writers are working very hard to make him a sympathetic character. He did the right thing in DMC. He continues to do the right things in AWE. Also, there is the matter of their writing and releasing his back story. Why would the writers go to all that trouble to create this triangle, reveal Jack's character and reveal Elizabeth's character without having some greater purpose in mind?

you're right. The cliffhanger isnt Jacks death, its the love triangle that was left unsolved from DMC. Apart from the ressurection of Barbossa. What the auidience expect right now from movie 3 is the sense of closure on resolving the love triangle. But is it really considered a love triangle?? I sometimes dont. It was left pretty clear that liz wanted jack. Problem was how Will was gonna handle it.

I have fate in the writers, I truly believe that they are not letting it go unnoticed. Although many people say that this triangle does not mean anything. But the writers wouldn't go in to so much trouble if it didn't had a meaning and purpose.

Well, what's interesting about your observation is that one writer has said that there is a love triangle, and one writer has said that there isn't.

They've never said which way that goes and it depends on your personal preference. I would call it a triangle, because we don't yet know what Elizabeth's feelings on the subject are. It's possible that she never loved Will, or that she doesn't love Jack. Unfortunately, it could literally go either way.

Originally posted by Chiki Mina
So...Jack calling her pirate is like a way to say leave< ill stay, I will do what you want me to? no no thats not it-Im wrong

But you think Liz was expecting Jack to be scared and loose his cool while she chained him up?

Now im not sure, but what seems to me Liz left him chained bc she was angry that Jack called her a pirate. And smiled during the process. Angry also that Jack could give her such temptation in making her lean in for another kiss. So if Jack wouldve said nothing, she would unchain him? Im not sure about this though, I think she wouldve chained him anyways bc of her growing feelings for jack. Its the only way she has to stay with Will.


Well, yes and no. I think she expected a different reaction than what she got. Most people, including Will, would have condemned her for chaining them to the mast, but that is the fundamental difference between Jack and someone like Will. At the moment, Will doesn't have an alterable moral landscape, though it will not always be so. The writers have said that Jack has his own internal moral landscape in that he evaluates each decision as it comes. His saying 'pirate' is more of him saying: "I understand." He's reassuring her, in a sort of noble way that he's ok with her decision.

Though, in the same moment, he's also pointing out to her that he was right all along, that all the things they were saying to one another during the Curiousity sequence were essentially true, gently reminding if you will.

And, I think you're right in that she's frightened of the implications of Jack's return. I was trying to figure out what made her switch from being overwrought with joy at Jack's return to the Pearl and clinging to his leg, to her making her decision to chain him to the mast. I think Jack's reminder that she is a Pirate in such a gentle way is his way of calling her out--holding her accountable. She chains him to the mast to essentially dictate that he will remain a good man, his last word to her was Pirate, reminding her to stay true to who she really is, and also, more importantly to call her out about all the fibs she told while she chained him to the mast.

Originally posted by savvysparrow
Well, yes and no. I think she expected a different reaction than what she got. Most people, including Will, would have condemned her for chaining them to the mast, but that is the fundamental difference between Jack and someone like Will. At the moment, Will doesn't have an alterable moral landscape, though it will not always be so. The writers have said that Jack has his own internal moral landscape in that he evaluates each decision as it comes. His saying 'pirate' is more of him saying: "I understand." He's reassuring her, in a sort of noble way that he's ok with her decision.

Though, in the same moment, he's also pointing out to her that he was right all along, that all the things they were saying to one another during the Curiousity sequence were essentially true, gently reminding if you will.

And, I think you're right in that she's frightened of the implications of Jack's return. I was trying to figure out what made her switch from being overwrought with joy at Jack's return to the Pearl and clinging to his leg, to her making her decision to chain him to the mast. I think Jack's reminder that she is a Pirate in such a gentle way is his way of calling her out--holding her accountable. She chains him to the mast to essentially dictate that he will remain a good man, his last word to her was Pirate, reminding her to stay true to who she really is, and also, more importantly to call her out about all the fibs she told while she chained him to the mast.

you are so smart. i agree with this post 100%. very eloquent.

There are a lot of interesting points to be addressed here, and it's rather late, and I have absolutely no time to post for everything on here tonight (but look for it tomorrow ), but one thing I want to address is this issue with Will choosing his father over Elizabeth.


This is not the case. Will has chosen his father over Jack . Will still loves Elizabeth and wants to save her, but he has a drive now to save his father as well. Why?


Well, first, Will wants a family. He was not exactly thrilled to see his father at first, and Will obviously still feels somewhat betrayed by his father leaving him when he was younger.


What drove Will to make that vow to his father was his father's sacrifice. This was the proof he needed that his father loves him, and that he is worthy of being saved.


This is such a vital part of the movie, and it seems to get lost in all the 'shippiness', I'm kind of saddened that everyone has forgotten how poignant these scenes are to try to prove a relationship.


As I've said, I do not believe that Pirates is a love story, but that the messages are far deeper than that.


What I really want to see in the third movie is a closure of Will and his father, where either Bootstrap is freed or dies to save Will. All this shipping has made everyone ignore the other plots of the movie, such as you know, the EITC, the Chinese pirates, and as SavvySparrow mentioned, Norrington.


I believe Norrington's arc will be the most interesting out of all the characters, and because of the parallels between not only himself and Will, but also between himself and Davy Jones that there is an excellent possibility that he will be stabbing the heart.


The writers have mentioned that the 'Turner sword' (Norrington's sword that Beckett had), has a bit of destiny of its own. Since Norrington is likely the one to have it in the next film, I wonder what that destiny is?


Ok, now I must go to bed, but look for a more in-depth shipping post tomorrow.

The Turner sword has a history?! Wow, that's cool! I didn't know that. What I love so much about the Pirates movies is that there is something for every one, and that there is so much depth to all the stories. I can think of half a dozen characters that I think could warrant their own movie, or at least their own story.

I agree that there are some beautiful moments between Will and his father. I really like the actor they picked to play Bootstrap. One of my favorite lines is 'I could say it wasn't what I wanted when I left you to go pirating, but it would taste a lie.' There are some truly poignant moments, and I wish there was more time in DMC to develop that story. You can hate me for saying it, but I actually could have done without the cannibal scenes. They were funny and original, but there were other things I was curious about. It seems like they have an awful lot of things to resolve in AWE.

I want to know why it is he was so loyal to Jack? I know Bootstrap's a noble man, but Jack must have done something to inspire that loyalty at one time. Personally, I think it has to do with Jack's backstory. So much seems to be tied to things in Jack's past and the decisions surrounding the Pearl. Also, what sort of mark did Jack leave on Beckett?

It's funny that you mention that Norrington's story also parallels the Davy Jones story---All three of the male members of the pyramid have the potential to follow Davy Jones footsteps. The possibilities are endless. Also, Bootstrap may make on more final sacrifice on behalf of Jack and his son.

Gosh, so many great things to discuss!

Yes, there really are. We all focus on the love story so much we forget about everyone else.

What could have happened, savvysparrow, is that Jack may or may not have done anything especially noble to earn Bootstrap's trust. Bootstrap has a pretty tight "moral center" and it's not moral to betray one's captain unless there are very extreme situations. Judging from Barbossa's disapproval of how Jack ran things, Jack wasn't an extreme person and often showed mercy and restraint when he didn't have to. He doesn't have a taste for killing, either. So it was simply the wrong thing to do to betray Captain Jack.
So I can see him making a sacrifice for Jack again. This is what's so great about the story. Although Jack and Will have a couple of things (but not everything) in common and make excellent teammates, they're bitterly jealous of each other and it just turns into plain dislike. If Bootstrap makes a sacrifice for Jack, that might be what pushes Will over the edge. Even if Liz chooses Jack, Will can always say at least he has his father. Now if Boostrap makes a sacrifice for Will, that would be different.

Will never willingly helped Jack in DMC surreal44 he thought going on Davy's ship would get Liz back in the long run. Thats the only reason why he agrees to help him He then bumps into his dad and he becomes top priority.

First he chose Elizabeth over Jack now he's choosing his father over Elizabeth.

Will set off in search of his father..It was the thing he wanted most as a child. He did not know anything about him so he cant feel betrayed yet. Meaning the meeting with Elizabeth is what caused this.

Pirates is not a love story..It seems to be a melodrama..not a "domestic melodrama"..just a melodrama. Especialy when it comes to Liz and Jack.

Its conflicting themes, moral choices etc emotional battles

where as Will is the only one without the compass in hand in the movie. He's more verbal and far more straight forward compared with Liz and Jack who are melodramatic characters.

Will does stab the heart.

And he even gives up Liz to do so..but he does marry her before doing so. More for her probably than himself.

He is the only character with a " touch of destiny about him" So he is the one following the more tragic route. But by the end he willingly wants to stab that heart. He accepted that destiny on the Dutchman when he took his fathers knife and made an on screen oath to him..He has made an emotional tie and now it wont be broken. When its a tragedy for a character in a movie/story, its only a tragedy because they bring it upon themselves. Will has in DMC and will bring it upon himself much more in AWE

I sense the ending will be Wills fault and it will be his responibility to stab the heart and he will.

SavvySparrow. Even PotC 1 showed us this Odyssey (odysseus/Jack) type resemblance I remember watching it and thinking.."HA! Jack is stranded on an island and he's forced to be stuck with the female" Then what I find astonishingly similar is how his perspective of Liz/women totally changes after that island experience (peas in a pod scene) and the ending.

Its so weird how they have now introduced Calypso into the new stoey. What an odd choice of character. As is the Kraken to add into PotC. Its like they have now made it so Calypso is the reason why Jack is changing to suit Elizabeth..not the encounter with Liz on the island of movie 1..

the The only time Calypso was brought into an ancient story as a character was the Odyssey I believe (correct me if I'm wrong)

I cant remember but I think someone, one of the J/E shippers on KttC told me how T&T liked the ancient myths and legends etc

Now that's very interesting. It's been a really long time since I read the Oydessy. I can only remember bits and pieces of it because I was too young to appreciate it. All I remember is that Oydessus leaves, his faithful wife waits, there's a battle at Troy in which the Greeks use a horse, instead of dresses (Wooden horse.) Sorry couldn't resist.
Somehow, he makes Athena mad, so he spends a long time trying to get home. I guess this proves that I should review my myths.
And you're right, Jack is very similar in character to Oydessus. If I remember correctly, they share a fondness for trickery rather than for blood. Isn't there another character that's a foil of Oydesses? There's one character who wants war above all else with Troy. Maybe Agamendon? If that's correct, then he's strikingly similar to Will in that respect.

Yes it really is similar. Remember Liz said something like "you slipped past 100 spies of the east India company" maybe he did something similar to Odysseus with the wooden horse.

We also learn that he's a master of disguise (Just like Oddy) "impersonating a cleric in the church of England" I frigging love how he giggles at that..he's like "ahh yes, memories!"

Elizabeth does something here that reminds me of Penelope. She tricks the other men so that Jack can escape..If i remember correctly Penelope is basically Odysseus's equal in the Odyssey. Elizabeth is Jack's match for sure in PotC 1 and 2

Here is what my copy of the Odyssey says about Oddy:


that is like... soooooooo Jack

we think Jack is an enigma but I think he can pretty much be placed aside Odysseus. He can be sussed out because of that.

does he piss off Athena in the Illiad?

He pees off Poseidon (sea god) in the Odyssey I know that much. He owes him his soul

Davy anyone?

no thank you..

lol I meant Davy is basicaly Poseidon from the Oddysey

Jack's ultimate nemisis

I thought I remembered that he displeases Athena in some way, so that she decides not to help him on the journey home. Which, actually even though Tia is Calypso, she is a lot like Athena in that she is a spiritual guide. (The crab claws).

I was thinking that maybe Jack's string of bad luck may have something to do with Tia and his choices in the past. On the DMC game, one of the items you can pick up is a Voodoo doll. When the item is explained it says: never cross a Voodoo Queen who knows your likeness. The likeness is of Jack. Is that foreshadowing, or something that has occurred in the past?

Poseiden is the sea god. And Calypso is the sea goddess. Am I right. I have seen the Odyssey exactly twice.

SavvySparrow I thought Jack actually had good luck all of a sudden..recently he seems to be getting by mostly on luck..as Johnny says "miraculously running between the rain drops".

But this luck hasn't always been there, he's been through many scrapes where he has had to be brave..he's got scars...then all of a sudden he's lucky..and now with DMC his luck has run out.

Calypso protected Odysseus from Poseidon's rage for 7 years..on the 7th he left for Penelope...and Poseidon royally sought vengeance on him as soon as he made a choice to leave Calypso..


...suspicious lol. Tia knows Jack loves Elizabeth. Has she let him go. luck and all. Jack still seems to have that luck on the cannibal Island but as SOON as he meets Tia and she finds out he's "in love" with Liz? It goes.

I agree Tia is like Athene/Circe/Calypso all rolled into one

then how funny..it seems as if Its Will who has the luck wouldn't you agree?

Im not sure if we should compare DMC with the Odyssey. But I cant deny that the simmilarities are quiet interesting and intriguing. I wonder if TED/Terry did this withougt thinking of its comparissons or they really took this into a lot of thought.

I think they are. Its so similar. Odysseus practically goes through the same thing Jack does at the end of DMC start of AWE..he's reborn again from the waves and now knows how to understand the female and use this knowledge to his advantage.

Besides Calypso was added on to this story. So it only makes sense to compare to the Odyssey.

yuh huh ^^

Savvysparrow. Last night you said something that interests me. Liz was waiting for Jack to be angry with her and respond badly to her actions.

Last time he was so angry with her and IMO this makes it easy for her to betray him and leave him.

This time its so different.

Its like she was trying to end her feelings for Jack..but also trying to end Jack's feelings for her in that scene with her actions..and it actually showed us that Liz's plans backfire and she knows it.

she almsot kissed him again and he's totally in love with her now.

It made him smile more the fact that she couldnt resist. I think al this plan that Liz thought was brilliant all backfired. She never expected him to be so calm about it and smile during the process.

I dont think she expected to be SO taken by the kiss either^^

Its like she had "angry face" all set and ready in motion but then she was basically breathless and shaking in the matter of a heartbeat

Also in melodramas the music is key in situations where actions are speaking louder than words. The music is CLEARLY reflecting Elizabeth's emotions/facial expressions in this scene and not Jack's, because
A) we don't see his face as she goes in for the kiss..
B) the music is very sad and desperate and Jack is smiling
C) as she's leaving..it shows you just how bloody hard she is finding this whole situation its emotional and physical torture to her..its like her heart is physically aching and is reflected in the music..its TORMENTING music here as she is leaving and she looks at Will its like "DAMN you Will Turner!!" as if its his fault she's doing what she's doing.

The is music reflecting exactly how she feels during this entire scene, its a handy device to use when words simply cant express ones true emotions in films. Typical melodrmatic scene indeedy.


EDIT - although its not all entirely matching her emotions..some moments are there to create a feeling for the audience like suspence for example when she leaves and just as she chains him up.

I think she thought her plan was genious, but it turned out to backfire on her lol.

Jack showed her great loyalty and sacrifice for her. Made her realize she had feelings for Jack. So the only way to get rid of the temptation was to chain him up and since he owes his debt to Davey. So she thought One kiss, just one taste and it will be over. No one has to know about it But she wasnt expecting to be so taken by the kiss like you said, LovelyOne.

So her plan of kissing him and chaining him up and pretend as if nothing happend all turned caca for her. And certainly did not expect Jacks reaction to all this. She was more pissed at herself for wanting Jack and leaning back for another kiss. She was angry that Jack simply said Pirate she was just pissed bc it looked as if it was Jack who won her over

By the end she was crying in regret of chaining up the man she loves. She so wanted more of him, she was so sorry lol Its written all over her face.

guys, i've had a revelation, and after all this explaining, I've got it figured out.

It works for whoever was holding it last, it works for whoever looked at it last, it works for whoever the camera pans to, it was pointing to Liz and the chest, it was pointing to Will, it was pointing to Jack and the chest, and it was just pointing to Jack.

all figured out. HAHAHA. oh gee...

lets celebrate, Good one Kate!!

Originally posted by diddly-dum
Whats this whole deal about the compass?? I think you guys are over analysing things. I think the compass really has no more importance than what it shows,.. Really guys stop over analysing these things. Producers/directors don't have to have hidden meanings for all these minute things!!!
Well,.. thats all I have to say.
The compass is magic...it points to your hearts desire..
Elizabeth held it and it pointed to Jack...after they made it clear in the movie what the compass does.

Originally posted by katelovespirate
guys, i've had a revelation, and after all this explaining, I've got it figured out.

It works for whoever was holding it last, it works for whoever looked at it last, it works for whoever the camera pans to, it was pointing to Liz and the chest, it was pointing to Will, it was pointing to Jack and the chest, and it was just pointing to Jack.

all figured out. HAHAHA. oh gee... you lost me after the camera panning thing

HeY aLL My LoVes Of KMC!!! I Just wanted to say that i shall miss u all cause i am on my way to HAwaii!! See u all when i get back in a week....OMG imma have a lot to read when i come back...lol!!! If anything Special happens, or any drama happens PM me with it thanks!!! Love ya and miss ya!! MuaH!!!

Keep me informed ladies...Thanks!!

I can safely say Tia does not end up with anyone..NOT JACK!!

Originally posted by LovelyOne
I can safely say Tia does not end up with anyone..NOT JACK!!
Nope Tia does end up with Jack....She gave him A compass and a Jar Of Dirt...Now that means something...
If a chick gave me some Dirt i would be like....OMG I love you...Poppet

Lol j/k

Jar of dirt caused him more trouble than help...

Tia you "crabby" *****

lol

dunno if this is the right place to say this or not but does jack say "pirates" or "pirate" at the end of DMC??

I dunno why but he kinda has an SSSSS sound at the end of it.

When he calls Liz one, LovelyOne? Is that when you mean? He's definitely saying pirate without an s there. It may sound like it because he grits his teeth at the end.

yeah that moment...lol porobably just the quality of the clip..if he said "pirates" that wouldnt make much sense lol

Liz (after she's kissed him): I'm not sorry.
Jack: Pirates.
Liz: Pirates?
Jack: Off the port bow. That's what they all are down there.
Liz: Oh. Yes, I agree.
Jack: P is for pirate. (grins)
Liz: Gee, you're taking this whole being chained and left to die pretty well, almost placid. Are you drunk?
Jack: Only a little. Can I have another kiss?