Elizabeth Dress Similarities

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SparrowSwann
I dunno what this means, if it means anything, but i noticed that in both movies Elizabeth's dress sinks to the ocean floor.
In COTBP, it is when Jack is rescuing her after she faints and falls, and he rips her outer dress off because it is too heavy and would weigh him down as he rescues her.
In DMC, it is her wedding dress sinking to the floor of the ocean because the boat it was on sunk. And she changed out of her wedding dress so she could pretend to be a guy so she could find Jack/Will.
I dunno if this might have any clues or anything im too tired to think so post your comments. big grin

Chiki Mina
Those are excellent points. Jack was the reason why he ripped her dress in the first movie so he could rescue her. The second she took off her wedding dress in order to help Will to find Jack. So basically she was rescuing Jack. All bc of Mr. Sparrow big grin The dress/corset represents the old Lizzie with the uptight class. Jack frees her from all that. Representing a new life with her true soual mate.

mmoviejunkie
yeah-
and IMO-in the first movie he can't save her unless he takes off the dress, significant-he can't save her without her giving up her high class life
and the 2nd one: her wedding dress is sinking-obviously her wedding will/already was a disaster

LovelyOne
Liz is also stripped down yet again in movie 1. When she's with Jack on the island. Both characters are stripped down and we see thir true colors come out on the island.

Chiki Mina
True. Wonder why the camera focused on the wedding dress while it was sinking. Meaning that her wedding was a mistake to begin with. If she stayed on with that dress, she wouldve drown along with it. Meaning if she wouldve stayed with Will, she would have drowned.

mss_mira
yeh it jst symbolizes that she wants or will leave the dress behind... which means the dress symbolizes her life style or who she once was..

Swann&Sparrow
Yeah, I remember thinking that a while ago before DMC came out. Jack free's her from her tight corsets thus letting her breath.

Also, everytime she comes back to Will {At the Hanging in CotBP and when she was marring Will in DMC} she's in a corset. A tight annoying corset.

Chiki Mina
Corset representing how hard it is for her to breath. Jack came into her life, and it was like as if she breathed for the first time EVER.

mss_mira
and when shes w/ jack she gets to take it off... lol not really though laughing

Chiki Mina
we wish though lol a little porn disney style wouldnt hurt wink laughing out loud

Swann&Sparrow
Also in the begining of CotBP, whenever she's around Will, she's ALWAYS in a corset. Jack NEVER saw her in a corset ever! Only when he was saying goodbye to her and Will, but even then he was sad because she seemingly 'choose' Will.

LovelyOne
Jack ripped her out of her courset..he allows her to breathe again smile

did anone notice the huge differences in the cut wind change scene and the one in the movie?

the cut one creates SUCH a massive statment about these two meeting. The atmosphere is totally different to the one in the movie.

Chiki Mina
what..holly hell man. HOw come I didnt see this in COTBP!! Man I need to watch it again.....

willofthewisp
I agree. It's a symbol that Jack, or at least Jack's lifestyle, is the only thing that gives her freedom. All of the men like seeing Liz dolled up, and I agree with them that she's very beautiful, but Jack is the only one who seems to prefer her in pirate mode in spite of his "dress or nothing" joke. By the time of their kiss, she probably has been sweating profusely, unshowered combined with the smell of the ocean, sunburned face, etc, and he's completely enchanted with her.

Chiki Mina
The curiosity scene when she said "personal Hygeine" I think she just said that to make him think she hates his presence. Im sure she loves his scent. The ocean breeze with a opinch of rum must drive her mad lol. Im sure she didnt mean what she said.

Swann&Sparrow
I sorta think that that 'Dress or nothing' thing was almost like he was stating what we are saying now. Like, when Elizabeth is a pirate, she's bare. Naked in his light, that's her. You know, and the corset/dress is the tight prison to Elizabeth. Jack sees it too.

So it's like he's giving her a choice, like he's saying you wanna be the lady on board or try being a pirate? And then again, it's like he's saying she could keep that dress on and be a lady, but he will always see through it, and he will always see her true skin.

LovelyOne
I know this is slightly OT but I dont really wanna make a thread for it.

Its probably me looking far too deep.

But It just interests me how Jack and Liz both fell from exactly the same spot

Also its one falling at the start of the movie and one falling at the end

Just another thing they have in common..both as daft as eachother..standing so close to the edge without thinking what they are doing.

also how on earth did they both miss the rocks? Norrie wouldnt jump because he would probably hit the rocks "it was a miracle she didnt hit them"

it happens twice and Jack didnt hit them either?

savvysparrow
The thing with the dresses. I think you're very clever to pick up on it, and the sinking wedding dress sequence in DMC, may in fact point to those events in CotBP. It may have been, like the why is the rum always gone line, a way to call the audiences attention back to the events that led to Jack and Elizabeth's introduction.

Certainly, you can look at Jack's rescue as being symbolic on more than one level, if you're of the frame of mind that J/E were meant to be together for quite a while.
In the first movie, Elizabeth's dress and the corset are symbolic of the restrictions of society and their impact on women. The corset and the heavy dresses women wore at the time were burdens to their bodies. Brocade is a heavy material! Imagine all that weight coupled with humidity and a super tight corset. The clothes were another tool in which you can argue women were kept subservient to men. How could a woman protest, shout, run, jump or keep her wits about her if her breathing was restricted by a corset and heavy fabric?
In other words, the restrictions of society were sucking the life out of her and were an ill-fit.

You can argue that Jack's rescue was symbolic and literal. Obviously, he pulled her from the ocean and saved her from drowning. I think it's interesting that the clothes were what was weighing her down and causing her to drown. (Drowning can be symbolic of being smothered or repressed). So he freed her of those shackles, the restrictions of being a dutiful daughter and perfect societal lady. Her gratitude to Jack may have something to do with both rescues. And notice that up until the end of the movie, she doesn't appear in those types of dresses again.

willofthewisp
No wonder men thought women were the weaker sex. We probably fainted all the time back then due to tight corsets. Of course someone can't run very fast or lift very much if they're in shoes that don't fit, wear glasses with no set prescription (they were that way, believe it or not), and wear dresses so stiff you can't move in them. Jack is such a forward-thinker. I think one of the rules of the pirate code was no women on board ships.

Chiki Mina
i wonder why they think its bad luck to have a woman on board.

savvysparrow
Actually, that's a great question. I was wondering that myself. Obviously the old school, superstious pirates like Gibbs believe that women are bad luck aboard ships. Which is strange, since ships are reffered to as being feminine.

Though, I think it's a tribute to Elizabeth that Gibbs is willing to make an exception of his opinion for Elizabeth. I've been noticing how much of an intricate part of the crew she is. Jack gives an order, Elizabeth is quick to take up the call. Also, besides Gibbs, she is one of the few crew members who stands on the upper part of the ship where the wheel is. (My knowledge of ship terminology is woefully limited).

Here's what I found out about the pirate superstitions:

Women onboard a ship make the sea angry.

If you come across a bare footed women on your way to a ship, bad luck would be sure to follow.

A naked women onboard a ship calms the sea
Hence the numerous bare breasted figureheads on sailing ships of old. Who ever said a sailor was politically correct


Also it says that it's bad luck to rename a ship....The original name of the Black Pearl is the Wicked Wench. Maybe that explains why Jack has had some bad luck with the ship...

Chiki Mina
maybe.. I dont think Luck exists. Just desteny by the choices you make. Jack chose to have liz a board. Eventually his destiny led him to fall in love and be chained lol. But it was a choice he made, its not bad luck.

savvysparrow
Originally posted by Chiki Mina
maybe.. I dont think Luck exists. Just desteny by the choices you make. Jack chose to have liz a board. Eventually his destiny led him to fall in love and be chained lol. But it was a choice he made, its not bad luck.


Ah yes, but you're not a pirate. Obviously, the series is really about the choices that are made and the consequences of those choices. A rational, unsuperstitious person would say that the events of Jack's life that followed the sinking of the Wicked Wench were due to the choices he made after that moment.

But a pirate would say that Jack's decision to rename the Wench the Pearl doomed him to a string of great misfortunes. Personally, it seems like Jack is chained to the fate of the Pearl because of his earlier decision to become a pirate. He was shackled to the Pearl by Elizabeth, thus preventing him from gaining what he truly wanted. In the rough draft AWE script, his purgatory is trying to pull the Black Pearl from the sand with a rope and failing.

Chiki Mina
yea on the supposed rough draft. How the two guys(forgot their names) said that the ship was so evil that hel itself spat it back out. or was it about barbossa...omg lol im loosing credibility here. Im falling asleep on my keyboard thats my problem. Sorry I couldnt add a good theory.

savvysparrow
Well, actually that's a good point. They don't say whether it's Barbossa or Jack. I would assume that they're referring to Barbossa since he's had the ship for ten years.
Though he doesn't seem that evil any more, which is strange, at least not in the third script.

willofthewisp
I think that was Barbossa, too.

That's so interesting, savvy, about the pirate policies about women. I used to know a lot of sea superstitions, but no more. Pirates and sailors were just really superstitious then and it's a credit to Jack that he goes the unconventional route, renaming ships and letting women on board (fully clothed).

calypso
At the end of COTBP when everyone is on the Isle de Muerta and the little pirate with the red hat is chasing someone and says something about pain, Elizabeth whacks him up side the head and says something like "Pain? You like pain? Try wearing a corset."

I find it very interesting that Jack removed Liz's shackles (dress/corset) of her life at the beginning of COTBP and by the end of DMC she shackles Jack to his life (mast).

T/T said they named the ship Black Pearl to show the contrast between Barbossa and Jack, one black hearted and one who wishes to be, but isn't. Maybe that is why the Kraken is after the ship, because in Davy Jones' locker it was the Wicked Wench not the Black Pearl. Why didn't the Kraken go after Jack in his little row boat?

LovelyOne
Barbossa's not really a bad guy though..I think they just mean he's a better pirate..and Jack just wishes he was but he cant because he's far to caring to be a good pirate.

He's a good sailor though smile

Chiki Mina
Jack considers himself a pirate bc he breaks the rules

Barbossa is more of a pirate bc hes cold blooded. Hes not a bad person, hes just-his plans are more evil.

willofthewisp
Barbossa's pretty cruel. I think he's a bad person. Are you guys saying he's not evil because he wants to be able to feel? You can be human and have human needs and wants and still be a bad guy. He leaves people to die on islands, orders a guy strapped to a cannon by his boostraps to drown, an overall pillager.

calypso
As Lizzy said to Will "Why would a man kill another for a ship?"

Will's response: "Because he's a pirate."

LovelyOne
I'm talking about him killig himself in order to save jack/Liz in movie 3??

but I agree with you willofthewisp

but I remember in the commentary T&T said "see Barbossa is not really a bad guy"

but compared to Jack..he IS laughing out loud

shannstar79
Originally posted by LovelyOne
I'm talking about him killig himself in order to save jack/Liz in movie 3??

but I agree with you willofthewisp

but I remember in the commentary T&T said "see Barbossa is not really a bad guy"

Yep, I remember that quite well also lovleyOne, T&T actually compared Jack and Barbossa and called the Pirate gods, remember that

Chiki Mina
Omg!! WHERE THE FREAK IS MY HEAD WHEN I SEE THIS MOVIE!? It must be switched with my ass or something!!

willofthewisp
Barbossa is just a guy you love to hate. Geoffrey Rush really puts his heart and soul into the part and creates a larger-than-life character second only to Jack. Johnny calls him the Wicked Witch of the West of the high seas and it's true. He's immortalized as a villain and that's why I think we all like him.

lovethemtigers
I dont' care what happens in AWE...I will go to my grave believing that Jack and Elizabeth are meant for each other...they are each others' destiny....wasn't it destiny that she fell into the ocean just as Jack was talking to the two sailors...he had to jump in to save her....release her for her corsetted life...."it would be exciting to meet a pirate"...she can't keep her eyes off of him in this scene..."you're dispicable"..."sticks and stones, luv"....destiny...that they are marooned on the "island" together...she teaches Jack the "pirates life for me"song....so many others...ugghhhh I'm so tired of going over these points, clues...etc....ALLL I KNOW (sorry Rogue)....is that Jack and ELizabeth belong together...and I don't care what happens I will always believe that...and I know that Keira (Elizabeth) knows it too...I truly believe if Keira has anything to do with it...her character will be lovey dovey with Captain Sparrow once again.....gosh Will is soooo boring..

Chiki Mina
I know Will is boring, thats why he should go with me lol. 2 boring ppl me and will woohoo. although i could use him to make someone feel jealous..

willofthewisp
Will, psh, how could any girl pick Will when Jack is around? It's like chocolate vs. artichoke hearts.

Chiki Mina
well since every gurl wants jack. Hes been taking for. Jack sparrow wont notice me lol. Just the pretty gurls. So might as well end up with Will...

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