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Sorry if anybody feels offended with that remark but i'll try to explain to you why... First of all, I am a huge Star Wars fan, i love everything about it, except that way Lucas approached the Prequel Trilogy... Its quite obvious when you look at the Making of documentaries that Lucas spent more time trying to choose what alien mask he wanted for some pointless Senate debate scene or to choose what costume should Padme wear, then the time to make a good screenplay with a good storyline that is logical and has no loose ends with Original trilogy...

It almost feels when you listen to his interviews that he doesnt even understand the story, all he cares about is making as much pointless new caracters so he can sell more merchandise in mcdonalds and toy'r'us... For example - jar jar, of course, zam wessell, that creepy guy at Utapau, and General Grievous... The later one i even liked but a fourth villain in ROTS was not something that we really needed!

He cant even gives a good reason why Anakin turned to the dark side?! First of all, the transformation was far to quick, in one scene he is a good guy, loyal to the jedi, and in the other he hates them and has no problem with killing the younglings...

Also Lucas makes Anakin look like a idiot... He believe that Palpatine will help him save Padme's life?! He obviously forgot that Palpsy try to kill Padme in many occasions (both in TPM and AOTC), also he know that Palpsy is reasponsible for the Clone Wars so how can a normal person trust someone like that...

My feeling is that Anakin should slowly start to turn to the Dark Side (in AOTC), and because of his desire for bigger power he starts to explore (at Palpatine's advice) the ancient Sith practices... So the main reason for turning to the Dark Side (in my opion) should be the quest for greater power and not saving Padmes life... Also i would make the Jedi Coucil more restrained to Anakin, especially Mace Windu, the should have tried to hold him back... Then he would have a good reason to dislike them and eventually to betray them. Sadly, you dont see any of that in the movie where it looks like Anakin is nothing that a spoiled brat who wants to be a Jedi Master, a year after he became a Jedi Knight...

Thats my only remark to ROTS, but the first two have some major illogical story parts... I will skip TPM beacuse it has no screenplay period! All Lucas wanted it that one is to introduce a first CGI character in a movie (jar jar) and to make the ben-hur type chariot scene on Tatooine which lasts almost half a movie...

My main problem with AOTC, except the corny dialog between Padme and Anakin is that nobody was worried or puzzled that the Clone Army that was make for the Republic (which at the end saved all the jedi in the arena) was cloned from a Bounty Hunter working for Count Dooku who is leader of the Separatists?!?

Secondly, it was never explained why none of the Jedi can sense that Palpaine is a Sith? And regarding Yoda... none of his lines make sense in this one, what ever happend to that wise creature in ESB, all he does in this one is speak stupid oneliners for the trailers and teasers ("Begun the Clone War has"...

And lastly there are huge discrepancies regarding the jedi powers specially in AOTC and the Clone Wars cartoon... In AOTC almost two hundred Jedi Knights and Masters cant deal with a flock of flying insects and a battalion of Battle droids?! In the cartoon one Jedi can destroy hundreds of droids in a few minutes... but in AOTC a Jedi Master from the Jedi Council can even deflect a few laster blasts with his lightsaber (i'm reffering to Colemon Trebor who was killed by Jango Fett).

Thats all for now... Please write me your opinions about my comments, i'm very interested if there are other fans that are botherd with the same things that bother me!
And if you have something else to add, please do!

Wow, I will not read all that. Just because his Prequel movies weren't too good because of the acting and bad lines, they don't make him an idiot. I'll agree though, AOTC was pretty bad, but I think the worst lines and acting was in ROTS. And I'll agree with that Clone Wars thing. Though I don't think that part was Lucas's fault.

on the topic: agreed

on the post: im not reading all that shit maybe you can edit and abridge that and ill give it a read.

Well points made though. They all center on the STORYTELLING of the PT, not so much the bad acting and the bad lines.

I agree with your points, DS... and Lucas was the man who always insisted that Special Effect were only TOOLS of storytelling. I believe Lucas contradicts himself with the PT.

Addition to my post!

I know that some of those story inconsistancies and unanswered questions are because of the time restraint of a movie, you cant answer are questions in 2hours of movie time... at least not a storyteller of Lucas' calibar... I think Peter Jackson could maybe do it... But at least Lucas could have given some additional explanations in this DVD commentary or in some of his many DVD featurettes... Instead in the commentary we only here stuff that we already know and that boring sound effects guy that explains in detail how every sound in the movie was done?!

Oh, i have two questions regarding the OT, please reply me if you know the answers...

How come there is no mention of the Sith in the OT? Do the imperial officers know that their Emperor is a Sith Lord and to they know what a Sith Lord is?!

How come the Lars family didnt change Luke's last name? I mean Anakin Skywalker was a hero of the Republic and the most famous Jedi during the Clone Wars, so the name Skywalker should be well known across the galaxy, and i dont think the name was completely forgotten in just 20 years...


Btw, sorry but i cant edit my original post to by more shorter because it loses its meaning...

Please write me more of your thoughts on the subject!

I understand

Your last two points there are simply spectacularly unimportant. Changing name would have changed little, and why mention the Sith? It's not realy important at all.

You are letting your enthusiasm get the better of you.

"Secondly, it was never explained why none of the Jedi can sense that Palpaine is a Sith?"- Yes it was. "Hard to see, the Dark Side is." All you need.

And the Jedi were clearly VERY suspicious about the Clones, but had no choice in the matter.

Your comparison with the Clone Wars cartoon is also facile. They are entirely different mediums with entirely different approaches, and aside from anything else, Clone Wars is EU and so not even in continuity.

Try to think a little more carefully before unleashing such a barrage of criticism.

Still.. the storytelling isn't that great. Council's examples aten't that great either... hehehehe

Originally posted by darthsinister
Lucas is an idiot.

Tell us something we dont know. 1234

...most geniuses are.

I wouldn't exactly put Lucas in the genius category.

I do agree with some of the things that u are saying.

Re: Lucas is an idiot!

Yeah sure, but so were John Lenon, Salvador Dali, and Howard Hughes.

Originally posted by Alliance
I wouldn't exactly put Lucas in the genius category.

Oh, of course not...that's why we spend half our waking hours in his universe.

Originally posted by darthsinister
...i'm very interested if there are other fans that are botherd with the same things that bother me!

Pretty much on any given day at KMC Star Wars dude...(fanboys excluded of course...and you know who you are!!!)

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Yeah sure, but so were John Lenon, Salvador Dali, and Howard Hughes.

Yeah and Hitler is Mother Teresa. Besides John Lenon's music sucks, Dali is a crap artist, and I don't know much about Hughes, but if Leo Decraprio played him, he must suck.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Oh, of course not...that's why we spend half our waking hours in his universe. So? Even idiots can think of good things now an again. We spend half of our hours debating how crappy the films were and how many errors/inconsitancies are in the films.

Then we try to figure out why we still like then

Originally posted by Council#13
Wow, I will not read all that.

SO no comment.

Originally posted by Alliance
Besides John Lenon's music sucks



Originally posted by Alliance
Dali is a crap artist



Originally posted by Alliance
and I don't know much about Hughes, but if Leo Decraprio played him, he must suck.




Originally posted by Alliance
Even idiots can think of good things now an again.

Yes, I would have to agree with you on that one

As an artist myself, Dali is over-rated.

I thought you just said he's crap...

Citizen Kane is overrated...but at the and of the day it's a darn fine movie.

Warhol's overrated...but his art is pretty influential and is quite impressive.

And as an artist myself I think they're both geniuses.

By over-rated I mean he sucks balls.

'k now I know you're just playin'

...or live in outer space...the outer rim...Kamino to be exact.

Alderaan go BOOM!

I serious. I really hate Dali.

And Kamino kicks ass.

Wow.

Well, I guess everyone's entitled to their opinion.

Sure enough, there are people out there who think Citizen Kane sucks...however, anyone who knows anything about film would say that they're nuts.

Yep.

And if you ask why I like SW? Looking at the PT I sometimes wonder about that, when I see the OT I know why.

Everyone in here likes the PT. Don't deny it just because as films they're technically unsound. You're lying to yourself if you think you don't like it...it's Star Wars, and you love Star Wars.

Lucas would have to make something reeeeally bad for us not to like it...like "Howard the Duck" bad.

The OT films are good films...there's no denying that. But Star Wars is much more than a few good films...it strikes a chord becasue of it's imagination...and that's why we love it.

I still prefer the PT to Return of the Jedi.

blasphemy. enough of the rotj hating. at least no ewok was given a lead role and pages of dialogue to annoy us all.

its one thing to hold the least regard for rotj among the OT, but to put the PT above it...?

i just lost alot of respect for you ush schmoll

yea i gotta ask....why? Besides advanced visual effects, what does the PT have that the OT, or ROTJ more specifically, doesn't have? I mean I've always said that Mark Hammil seems like a fairy without wings, but the stories of the OT are richer, deeper characters, less Anakin's obvious dilemma, and all around....complete feel to it. It seems to me that in the PT, Lucas tried to rely more so on CGI and "wowing" the audience with visuals rather than with good story telling.

Point is, I don't believe he was focussed on CGI. I really believe he was working on story. But if we analyse the OT, we only see ROTJ falling short on the whole... Just like most of the PT. And I personally believe the difference was producer Gary Kurtz, who certainly helped streamline Lucas' vision and probably to 'get it right'. ANH and ESB are great, ROTJ is rushed. TPM and AOTC are sluggish, ROTS succeeds, IMHO, rather well... outdoes ROTJ for sure.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Everyone in here likes the PT. Don't deny it just because as films they're technically unsound. You're lying to yourself if you think you don't like it...it's Star Wars, and you love Star Wars.

Lucas would have to make something reeeeally bad for us not to like it...like "Howard the Duck" bad.

The OT films are good films...there's no denying that. But Star Wars is much more than a few good films...it strikes a chord becasue of it's imagination...and that's why we love it. Originally posted by Ushgarak
I still prefer the PT to Return of the Jedi.




cosinged.

Originally posted by darthsinister
Sorry if anybody feels offended with that remark but i'll try to explain to you why... First of all, I am a huge Star Wars fan, i love everything about it, except that way Lucas approached the Prequel Trilogy... Its quite obvious when you look at the Making of documentaries that Lucas spent more time trying to choose what alien mask he wanted for some pointless Senate debate scene or to choose what costume should Padme wear, then the time to make a good screenplay with a good storyline that is logical and has no loose ends with Original trilogy...

It almost feels when you listen to his interviews that he doesnt even understand the story, all he cares about is making as much pointless new caracters so he can sell more merchandise in mcdonalds and toy'r'us... For example - jar jar, of course, zam wessell, that creepy guy at Utapau, and General Grievous... The later one i even liked but a fourth villain in ROTS was not something that we really needed!

He cant even gives a good reason why Anakin turned to the dark side?! First of all, the transformation was far to quick, in one scene he is a good guy, loyal to the jedi, and in the other he hates them and has no problem with killing the younglings...

Also Lucas makes Anakin look like a idiot... He believe that Palpatine will help him save Padme's life?! He obviously forgot that Palpsy try to kill Padme in many occasions (both in TPM and AOTC), also he know that Palpsy is reasponsible for the Clone Wars so how can a normal person trust someone like that...

My feeling is that Anakin should slowly start to turn to the Dark Side (in AOTC), and because of his desire for bigger power he starts to explore (at Palpatine's advice) the ancient Sith practices... So the main reason for turning to the Dark Side (in my opion) should be the quest for greater power and not saving Padmes life... Also i would make the Jedi Coucil more restrained to Anakin, especially Mace Windu, the should have tried to hold him back... Then he would have a good reason to dislike them and eventually to betray them. Sadly, you dont see any of that in the movie where it looks like Anakin is nothing that a spoiled brat who wants to be a Jedi Master, a year after he became a Jedi Knight...

Thats my only remark to ROTS, but the first two have some major illogical story parts... I will skip TPM beacuse it has no screenplay period! All Lucas wanted it that one is to introduce a first CGI character in a movie (jar jar) and to make the ben-hur type chariot scene on Tatooine which lasts almost half a movie...

My main problem with AOTC, except the corny dialog between Padme and Anakin is that nobody was worried or puzzled that the Clone Army that was make for the Republic (which at the end saved all the jedi in the arena) was cloned from a Bounty Hunter working for Count Dooku who is leader of the Separatists?!?

Secondly, it was never explained why none of the Jedi can sense that Palpaine is a Sith? And regarding Yoda... none of his lines make sense in this one, what ever happend to that wise creature in ESB, all he does in this one is speak stupid oneliners for the trailers and teasers ("Begun the Clone War has"...

And lastly there are huge discrepancies regarding the jedi powers specially in AOTC and the Clone Wars cartoon... In AOTC almost two hundred Jedi Knights and Masters cant deal with a flock of flying insects and a battalion of Battle droids?! In the cartoon one Jedi can destroy hundreds of droids in a few minutes... but in AOTC a Jedi Master from the Jedi Council can even deflect a few laster blasts with his lightsaber (i'm reffering to Colemon Trebor who was killed by Jango Fett).

Thats all for now... Please write me your opinions about my comments, i'm very interested if there are other fans that are botherd with the same things that bother me!
And if you have something else to add, please do! Didn't read any of that BS.


thankyoucomeagain doped

Originally posted by Ushgarak
I still prefer the PT to Return of the Jedi.

YAY!

SOME of the PT...

the VAST majority of the PT to the VAST majority of ROTJ.

Errr... there is very little in the PT that can match all the Vader-Palpy and Vader-Palpy-Luke scenes.

Originally posted by Alliance
the VAST majority of the PT to the VAST majority of ROTJ.

Repeating your argument doesn't make it stronger.

No, but perhaps I simply assumed that you were intelligent enough to figure out that the Vader/Palps/Luke scenes do not reflect the majority of ROTJ.

I do, but they are so good taht I find it hard to find their equivalence in the PT. So that gives ROTJ some credit at least.

Perhaps, but 10 min of credibility is hardly a feature length film.

AOTC has less than that.... and TPm just has the pod race.... ROTS has a lot more.

Is this argument about whether ROTJ has just 10 mins of credibility...are you serious? That's getting pretty ridiculous.

Now not really... it's about whether the ENTIRE PT is better than ROTJ.

Originally posted by queeq
AOTC has less than that.... and TPm just has the pod race.... ROTS has a lot more.

3/4 of AOTC is great. TPM has a LOT more than the podrace, notably the end of the movie.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Is this argument about whether ROTJ has just 10 mins of credibility...are you serious? That's getting pretty ridiculous.

Not to me. I think its by far the crappiest of the films.

Oh. So if you were to recommend either AOTC or Return of the Jedi to any old movie-goer, you would tell them to watch AOTC...because it's "great" and ROTJ is "crappy?"

No. This is a different set of circumstances,

If they asked me to reccomend a SW film, I would only consider reccomending ANH.

Its the only film that stands alone and is by far the most menaingful as a film.

No no no no no...Circumstances, shmircumstances. C'mon, either ROTJ or AOTC...which one? If you had to choose one to recommend...

I would reccomend AOTC. Its an overall better film.

However, the situation would never arise that one would ask between only those two.

Yes it would!!! And I made you make the worst choice. Ha ha! I'm so clever...you never saw it coming!!!







No seriously though...ROTJ is far more superior film.

Nope, probably not.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Oh. So if you were to recommend either AOTC or Return of the Jedi to any old movie-goer, you would tell them to watch AOTC...because it's "great" and ROTJ is "crappy?"

No no, the point made by the thread starter was how Lucas is a dink and that he made a crappy PT.

Ush said that while the OT is the best, the three Prequel episodes are better than ROTJ. (I assume he meant any of the three, not all 3 v.s. 1)

Alliance and I agreed with him.

My feeling is not that ROTJ is "crappy" but that compared to the other SW films, it's in last place.

(pulls out saga list again)

Empire
Sith
New Hope
Menace
Clones
Jedi

though, episodes 1 and 2 change places with each other depending on my mood that day.

Well, the whole PT is preferable to ROTJ... okay... fair enough, I can sort of agree with that. But that it takes THREE SW PT films to best ROTJ kinda says that ROTJ ain't that bad.... hehehehehe

Erm....

I thought the point was that the PT doesn't suck, Lucas isn't an idiot, and in fact ANY of the PT films is preferable to ROTJ.


That's the way that I read it, and if I read wrong, I still think the Prequels are better films than ROTJ.



ROTJ has a 30 min. beginning, about half of which is cool, and the last 45 min. is cool.

All the other crap on Endor is.... crap.


However, despite flaws, script, or performances, I always watch a prequel straight through, without skipping boring chapters.


This, in my book, makes them better.

I think the PT films are horrible films...and so do most moviegoers...especially the ones who grew up with the OT. It's kinda funny how Lucas and Co don't seem to acknowledge that...they live in there own little bubble where they honestly think the moment PEOPLE were waiting for was to see Anakin become Vader.

The reality is, after the first two PT bombs, PEOPLE really didn't care about Star Wars except Star Wars fans, sci-fi geeks, and people who are into computer animation/video games etc...(which I don't doubt most people in here have as friends/aquaintances).

The Return of the King...now that's something people did care about...hmmm, wonder why?

I personally still love the PT, but I can admit it's crap...

...and ROTJ is definitely not crap. When it came out it got nominated for stuff like "Best Writing" from different awards shows.

The PT gets awards like "Best Bad Guy" Ha! What a joke!

Originally posted by sithsaber408
Erm....

I thought the point was that the PT doesn't suck, Lucas isn't an idiot, and in fact ANY of the PT films is preferable to ROTJ.


That's the way that I read it, and if I read wrong, I still think the Prequels are better films than ROTJ.



ROTJ has a 30 min. beginning, about half of which is cool, and the last 45 min. is cool.

All the other crap on Endor is.... crap.


However, despite flaws, script, or performances, I always watch a prequel straight through, without skipping boring chapters.


This, in my book, makes them better.

So ROTJ has about an hour of coolness...?? That is rather a lot. That is more than TPM has and more than AOTC has. ROTS does and rates better IMO that ROTJ.

And anyhow, no matter how good or crappy ROTJ is, the OT will always be a classic set of films. The PT will never reach that status. The suited Darth Vader is an icon, Anakin being Luke's father an iconic film concept and the battle of rebels against an evil Empire is etched into people's minds. What does the PT have to compete with that.... all I can think of unfortunately... is Jar Jar... That says a lot.

yeah when i think of the OT i think of 77,80 and 83 and the whole vibe of the time and the fact there was nothing like em.
Theres a buzz related to the OOT or whatever people are calling it this week
I know theres Dark Horse,Hasbro etc
but say the words Marvel Star Wars Weekly and Kenner and it all comes back to me..the OOT BUZZ
when i think of the prequels there is a totally different vibe to em for me
a sh1tty crappy poundshop vibe to em...a vibe of disapointment.
and you know what......I HATE AOTC
I got to type that i F****** DETEST that pile of sh1t
i have been in denial for too long........."i hate it when he does that"
well i hate what YOU do Lucas
i hate the way you f****d with the "feel" of Star Wars that i had for 14 years and replaced it with a bunch of average SCENES surrounded by CRAP.
All this talk of ROTJedi being beneath the PT
The Vader/Luke chit chat on Endor pisses on everything on those flicks from the height of an imobile Dewback from STAR WARS....f**k that A NEW HOPE sh1t!
and yes i do mean better than
Obi v Maul
The podrace
The Geonosis arena
and everything else every in denial Star Wars nut clings onto.
How can anyone big up THE Phantom Menace when you got Jar Jar in it pretty much non stop
its like someone crapping on your breakfast and saying "well there is crap all over my sausage and eggs but it still tastes ok "
I could go on but im on my 5 min break.
I am a few months into my denial of the PT existing....apart from this msg and a visit to this board im doin ok
It can be done.Turn your PT dvds into coasters/LAUNCH EM!!!Take your SW prequel merchandise and give em to a kids special needs hospital.THATS the audience Lucas obviously made the prequels for.DONE

Good points dude...but man...it's just a movie

Originally posted by vintageSW77
How can anyone big up THE Phantom Menace when you got Jar Jar in it pretty much non stop
its like someone crapping on your breakfast and saying "well there is crap all over my sausage and eggs but it still tastes ok "

Dude, that is HANDS DOWN the funniest thing I've ever heard on these boards. Oh man that's good. You rock.

Classic! I'm still laughing.

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
Oh. So if you were to recommend either AOTC or Return of the Jedi to any old movie-goer, you would tell them to watch AOTC...because it's "great" and ROTJ is "crappy?"

im with you dude. im feeling weirded out that these guys are saying this. its like im hanging out with close life-long friends and all of the sudden they break out a crack pipe and start puffin away. W....T.....F...????? NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

but i will respect you're opinions, those who claim rotj is crappy and beneath the PT.
my only rebuttal, with all due respect: you're frikin idiots

Originally posted by PVS
its like im hanging out with close life-long friends and all of the sudden they break out a crack pipe and start puffin away. W....T.....F...????? NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

That's awesome.

What's with all the witty posts? Why can't I think of funny stuff like that?

...yeah it is kinda like that. Although I can see for lotsa guys saying you like a movie with a bunch of oversized teddy bears in it isn't the most macho thing in the world. It's like admitting to liking "Willow"...just the name sounds dorky.



...I like it though.

was i pissed off this morning

the only problem with the PT is Lucas has TOTAL control and the final say
my bet he has the same thing that goes on in the Beyonce camp
Minion - "Miss Beyonce....dont you think your album B Day sounds like something you wash your ass in?"
Beyonce -"I dont want to see this snivelling slime in my face again"

You just know EVERYONE from John Knoll to the poor bast*rd who took a week to knock up a pic of a eopie or whatever the f**k they are called only to recieve the bum rush to Rick McCallum to Ben Burtt( the only guy to add disaproval...the true rebel in this story)ALL wanted to say "look George aint this a big pile of sh1t......dont you think that maybe we should get rid off the kid and give em more Vader later down the line???" "maybe we should have 50 thousand Jedi attacking on Geonosis instead of 50" ETC ETC
You can see the misery in their faces............the wasted opportunity.
You know why i know they are miserable???...cause i had the same look as i washed my hands looking at myself in the mirror EVERY time i visited the toliets after watching the PT in my local cinema.

Roll on the tv series though!

Originally posted by darthsinister
.....yet you still watch his movies

Yup, we are idiots too...

Vintage, you had me in stitches, man. GO Go GO!!

Originally posted by Broke Beat
.....yet you still watch his movies

Yeah we still watch his movies
Some of us watch em like i watch ONE FLEW OVER THE CUCKOOS NEST and think maybe this time McMurphy will climb out the window with the Chief.
We watch em hoping that another look will make it better this time....i was going to say DIFFERENT but this is STAR WARS and we all know that this happens yearly.
But all that happens is i end up in a lobotomized state,dribbling and hoping for someone to smother me with a pillow to take me out of my PT misery.

How about a PT dvd bonfire for your birthday?

Originally posted by vintageSW77
Yeah we still watch his movies
Some of us watch em like i watch ONE FLEW OVER THE CUCKOOS NEST and think maybe this time McMurphy will climb out the window with the Chief.
We watch em hoping that another look will make it better this time....i was going to say DIFFERENT but this is STAR WARS and we all know that this happens yearly.
But all that happens is i end up in a lobotomized state,dribbling and hoping for someone to smother me with a pillow to take me out of my PT misery. i just dont understand how hes an idiot when he made the very thing you read and debate about. he caused a cultural movement, and his movies have influenced and inspired alot of people both famous and non-famous. Hes the reason theres even a thread to debate about this shit. i think its silly that you guys pick apart every little peice of the trilogy like its supposed to be perfect, then chastize and criticize him about it as if you could've done it better? yeah, obviously the acting and scripting wasnt as good as the OT, but how does that make him an idiot or a dumbass? he gives you something masterful with the OT, then he gives you something not as good you expected or hoped for with the PT, and for that all of a sudden hes a complete idiot?

i dont come in this forum too much but when i do, i see threads critizing the most miniscule tiny details about the movies, like ohh Palpatines head wasnt on straight in the Mace Windu duel, OMG THEY SUCK, IT RUINED THE MOVIE, or ohhh the duel choreography sucked....ya know just silly stuff like that. its like if your gonna b!tch about stuff like that then dont even watch the movie. I for one dont have a problem with the PT, it wasnt that bad that i want to make a big fuss over it.

Im not hating on you guys or anything, i just think its silly to do that. I mean the man isnt perfect, the movies arent perfect, he never said they were supposed to be perfect. He spent have his life making the shit some of you guys have in your favorite movie list and just cuz you dont like how the last ones turned out hes an idiot all of a sudden.

You're right.

I honestly don't think people realize the effect Star Wars has had on pop culture...and especially on their lives. I really don't think they realize what they'd be missing if it were never made...they take for granted that it's there becasue it's such a staple in cinema, making it easy to get carried away when criticizing it.

It's like people who always criticize Shaq...from free throws to you name it...he gets some serious heat year after year. Yet at the end of the day...it's Shaq!!...and Shaq's pretty darn awesome! He's an icon. I'm glad basketball has Shaq...and I'm glad cinema has Star Wars.

I can honestly say that I have a couple of main complaints regarding Ep III and the constant OT tinkering, but I can openly admit that I love it all regardless...PT OT EU R2 D2...and it's cause Lucas is a genius...(he's not good at making us like his stuff anymore, he just makes us love it).

Originally posted by EPIIIBITES
You're right.

I honestly don't think people realize the effect Star Wars has had on pop culture...and especially on their lives. I really don't think they realize what they'd be missing if it were never made...they take for granted that it's there becasue it's such a staple in cinema, making it easy to get carried away when criticizing it.

I think you're underestimating us.

Who exaclty is "us"?

People like me. I know full well Star Wars' effect on pop culture etc...that doesnt' mean I have to be a ZOMG LUcas is GODLOLZORz fanboy about it.

you don't have to be a "whatever the hell you said" fanboy to show the man respect. its just common courtesy.

Originally posted by Alliance
People like me. I know full well Star Wars' effect on pop culture etc...that doesnt' mean I have to be a ZOMG LUcas is GODLOLZORz fanboy about it.
Well maybe you're not included in "us"...I never said you were...but there are people who constantly tear Lucas a new one and don't realize how much Star Wars really means to them in the first place.

...and are you implying I'm a fanboy???...'cause fanboys are my specialty.

It's not about nitpicking around here, I think the nitpicking is a symptom of a more general problem some of us have with the PT in general. The one who denies the influence of SW is the true idiot, its influence is HUGE... all over the world.

However, most (if not all) of that influence was caused by the OT, not so much by the PT. I personally think the PT is seriously flawed on the very counts that made the OT great: story and storytelling. Especially ANH and ESB set the stage for an completely unknown new style and approach to sci-fi-type films: visually, effrects-wise, look and sound... it was astounding. We are now so used to it, but it was groundbreaking on many counts and THAT caused it's enormous influence on pop culture. But as Lucas always insisted: the effects were merely tools for storytelling, the story came first. He struggled long and hard with SW, but after reading into the mythology analysis of Joseph Campbell and being influenced by Japanese director-icon Kurosawa, THEN he knew how to apporach it - he got the STORY right....

But the PT is seriously flawed in the storytelling department, it's CGI is astounding but no longer groundbreaking. The PT films will not be remembered by the masses as the OT is, no classics there. And it seems like the technological possibilities of modern technology allowed Lucas to make his vision in the most literal sense: visuals! And the storytelling is meager... the bad acting kinda stresses that. I mean, the OT has some moments of lousy acting (except I think ESB), but it didn't decrease the power of the story. Here, the story isn't great and the bad acting and horrible dialogue made it more clear... and this time the actors are a lot better from the start! ANH had unknown actors, the PT is loaded with film stars. So if they can't act properly, maybe there's something seriously wrong with either the story, the characters or the direction. And since Lucas wanted his visuals, everything was played out in front of green/blue screen, so he must have failed to include all the other storytellers (i.e. actors among others) in his 'vision'.

And the nitpicking then comes naturally because you see the flawedness of the PT in so many things.

The thing that kinda pisses me off about LUcas a little bit is that he appear to claim that he mapped out everything in the 70s and that he needed CGI to create his vision, where effects were merely tools of storytelling. Well, I find that ironic since the PT storytelling is substandard.... IMHO.

Although, I did like ROTS (sorry, EPIIIbites... )

AGREED
Lucas has turned into his own creation - Palpatine
He is surrounded by yes men...with McCallum his Vader and John Knoll his Tarkin.
He answers to nobody.
There lies the problem with the PT.
I know he had near total control dfuring ESB and ROTJ but over the years leading up to the PT he created his Empire...turning his back on his mentors along the way - Coppolla-the Darth Plagueis
of this play-and became THE EMPEROR of LUCASFILM.
Remember how Lucasfilm went through the net closing down internet sites during the prequels....and the rebel posters who emerged victorious -for a few hours at least -
and now the fans refusing to buy this months re release??
Life imitating art.

Originally posted by queeq
it's CGI is astounding but no longer groundbreaking.
Hello! Jar Jar as the first all digital character and AOTC as an all digital film?!?!? Where are you pulling this crap from?

(Though there was nothing special about ROTS)

Originally posted by queeq
The PT films will not be remembered by the masses as the OT is, no classics there.

NO. Star Wars film will ever equal ANH, but why don't we wait a bit and let people's OT Fanboy wet dreams dry up a bit before we go on predicting the legacy of the films.


Originally posted by queeq
And it seems like the technological possibilities of modern technology allowed Lucas to make his vision in the most literal sense: visuals!
What about this way? Lucas would have done the same thing in the OT, but he was simply limited by technology. The PT are the movies he always wanted to make, the OT never gave him the freedom to make what he wanted. All the movies would have been like the PT.

QUOTE-
NO. Star Wars film will ever equal ANH, but why don't we wait a bit and let people's OT Fanboy wet dreams dry up a bit before we go on predicting the legacy of the films.


My OT fanboys wet dreams dried up on the 19th May 1999 as did many others
we had a MASSIVE wet dream dry up around 1997 too and all.

JarJar as a digital character... okay, they made it... BUT the character SUCKED!!!!!! And then came Gollum and made ILM look like overpaid, arrogant surfers that were beaten easily by a few New Zealanders... Gollum made hisotry, JarJar only as the most annoying creature ever designed for film. He could compete only with another Lucasfilm creation: Howard the Duck.

The PT SW films are already out of the loop. No one refers to them, nothing from the PT is quoted (except by fanboys), the PT SW films will always stand in the shadow of the OT.


the fact that Lucas was soooo limited during the making of the OT was his salvation, he was forced to be creative within the limitations and succeeded very well. When the limitations were gone in making the PT, he lost his art.

I always wondered what would have happened if Jar Jar would have been less silly and more like a Chewie character.
Was he always intended to be that way i.e Irritating
Is there evidence that Lucas intended originally to create a more serious character who would have accompanied say Padme throughout the whole PT.
Or was he designed to be the way he turned out from day one.
I always got the impression that Jar Jar was going to be in the other prequels a whole lot more than he turned out to be....i know he was sidelined because of the reactions of people like myself and queeq but is there any proof that Jar Jar was meant to have a larger role??

I will have to differ with you Queeq for saying that Weta did better work than ILM though.
As much as i dislike the PT..ILM was robbed at the oscars.

That's what happens if you make uninteresting movies. And Gollum was way better than JarJar and the Hulk (two digital creations by ILM).

Lucas always said he wanted TPM to be a kids film, since the others would be darker. So he created, among other things, JarJar for comic relief... Chewie for kids, he does have the charm of an Ewok.

And I never flamed JarJar that much. Mostly because JJ was sidelined in the rest of the PT, he became another passer-by character, obsolete... who needs him? He has no character development, he's nerdy, not funny and only very little kids like him. So I'm sure Lucas would have wanted to give him a larger role in the other prequels... but he started writing AOTC after TPm was out... so I doubt tehre is any concrete proof, only what Lucas will tell us.

Hmm...

too many posts to quote.

I know that Lucas spent lots of time writing these, and that he took great care to connect the characters, themes, and situations to the other films, so that they would fit together.


I enjoy the PT.

I saw each one in the theatre, and enjoyed it the most of any film out in those years.

I like them still.

Nobody thinks that the PT is better than the OT as a whole, though I still say that ROTJ is about the same level as any PT film.

But Lucas is no idiot.

He made the movies that he wanted to make.

Perhaps we were all the "idiots" for thinking that revolutionary films that changed cinema, sci-fi, and movie-making, would some how ever be equaled.

At best, they can be expanded on, since the second time around is never going to equal the experience of the first.

There are enough awesome moments in the PT that the hammy acting and clunky diolauge doesn't get in the way, just as with ANH and ROTJ. (Empire is flawless however, and my fave of the saga.)

ESB RULES!!!

I tell you in a few years time there is going to be a rise in the appreciation of ROTJ.
Dont let the "ooh its full of Ewoks" haters sway you as i once did.
I enjoyed the build up to every PT movie and i enjoyed my trip to the cinema to see em where SW belongs...but there were far greater movies out for me the years they were released....and as a longtime SW fan that was hard to deal with......the betrayal!!!
I kidded myself that i enjoyed them out of some weird SW loyalty.
Much like i bought Be Here Now by Oasis because i liked the other 2 albums when i knew really it was a pile of sh!te.
Sithsabre408.....take out the few "awesome" bits of the PT and your left with nothing.
By awesome i guess you mean
The Podrace
Darth Maul vs anybody
The chase through Coruscant
The Arrival of the Clones on Geonosis
er....................

I SHOULD be putting down-
The opening scenes of the first SW pic
The Tusken Slaughter
The Battle Of Geonosis
The Battle Of Kashykk
The Slaughter of the Jedi
Palpatines reveal
Anakins turn to the Darkside
and
Vaders Back!!
But they were so botched i wont be bothering.

Yeah, I know what you mean.

Heres a nice anecdote: I watched all of them in sequence with my kids. And when theyd seen the whole PT we started on the OT. After seeing ANH my 8-year old said specifically: that was a very exciting story. Now, I found that striking since its slower than the PT and he'd seen all the ey candy of the PT, but he NEVER said anything about it being exciting. To me... that says a lot.

Maybe someday I'll respond to all these long posts.

Until then, lets crank up the Battle of the Heroes, play the ROTS xbox game, while eating cereal with the lightsaber spoon!

starwars !11ZOMG11StarWarZxx111!!























Seriously, how can anybody watch that little ewok baby get bright-eyed and then hide in fear at 3P0's sound effects, and talk shit about the prequels and Jar Jar with a straight face?

Originally posted by sithsaber408
Seriously, how can anybody watch that little ewok baby get bright-eyed and then hide in fear at 3P0's sound effects, and talk shit about the prequels and Jar Jar with a straight face?

What are you trying to say?

Originally posted by Alliance
What are you trying to say?

That PT haters should look a little harder at the flaws of the OT and the triumphs of the PT before passing judgement.


ALL of the films are good.

Some are just better.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
That PT haters should look a little harder at the flaws of the OT and the triumphs of the PT before passing judgement.

Ok

Originally posted by sithsaber408
That PT haters should look a little harder at the flaws of the OT and the triumphs of the PT before passing judgement.


ALL of the films are good.

Some are just better.

that argument can go both ways. Whatthe OT lacks in visual effects, it makes up for in story telling and characters. Im not saying the PT sucks, i just prefer the OT. Its what I grew up on and had less "kid humor" than the PT.

The OT lacks more than "visual effects" which, if you remember, were groundbreaking at the time.

well i dont know that its really fair to judge the visual effects as a flaw, we all know that the technology and the budget he was working on were very limited. i dont really seem them as a flaw because i like the old-fashion (film-wise) feel of the movies.

Originally posted by Alliance
The OT lacks more than "visual effects" which, if you remember, were groundbreaking at the time.

Well then by the same token it wouldnt be fair to compare the two trilogies in that area. What else does it lack besides nick gilliard and a couple hundred more lightsabers? Please keep in mind though that ROTS is my number 2, right behind ESB. So im not PT bashing.

You can compare them to storytelling, which, in the end, is the only thing that counts. Will the PT visuals stand the test of time in 10 years time??? Who knows... But we DO know that the OT stood the test of time, and that is not due to the effects.

As much as i love ILM and much of the effects work in the PT i think the Geonosis arena scene is full of dodgy CGI......Anakin and the REEK for example...woeful and will not stand the test of time.
The Rancor looks more realistic to me....but for every Rancor there is a Tauntaun straight out of a Harryhausen film(NOT that theres anything wrong with the great man).

Give me a bright eyed cowering baby Ewok over -
a) An Eopie farting
b) Boss Nass and his wobbly faced phleghm filled Bob Marley Strutting
c) Ben Quadinaros....well done Lucas for giving a humpty dumpty lookalike podrace loser the same name as one of the movies main heroes!....its not as if he aint no good at coming up with names is it... PADDY ACCU for example.
d) Kitster

I could go on but im starting to get the TPM feeling
Hey anyone else get the TPM feeling??
You know the feeling you got when you bought the TPM illustrated screenplay before the movie came out and thought someone had torn a few pages out.
The one where you thought someone had slipped LSD in your drinking chocalate as you read the Jar Jar and Boss Nass dialogue?
Yeah that one................its not a good place to be.

I realised whilst channel surfing the other week that one of the only moments in the prequels where i felt i was watching an SW pic is the bit where C3po and R2 leave the ship on Geonosis ..........that 10 sec clip was as Star Wars as it was gonna get.
Well that and the bit where the Emperor lands on Mustaphar and checks out Anakin.....that had me too.

Don't forget the jumping scenes of OB1 on Kamino and the HORRIBLE shaaks *shudder* - worse CGI ever IMHO.

I love that sequence (Kamino) (Fett v Kenobi)

The swinging from the cable looks like sh!t...

Yeah, well I'm surprised it didn't sever his fingers when he stopped falling.

Ok whilst were on FX knocking
(Excuse me if this has been posted before) the lightsabre fights although a lot more acrobatic are let down by the CGI.
Palpatine doesnt mach up when hes fighting Mace.Its SO obvious its intercut with CG - the stuntman in a wig impersonating a female you used to get in TJ Hooker etc was far more convincing.
And lets not get started with the great Christopher Lees swordplay in 2 and 3.....a misjointed mess.
Sure Obi V Anakin was very good but let down by the whole river of lava set up.
What was wrong with fighting NEAR a volcano.......something a bit more subtle....we waited 25 years for THAT!!!
and as for Battle Of The Heroes..you know what i couldnt hum it...ive forgottten it.

BTW anyone see Christopher Lee on breakast tv this morning
hes got a cd out!

Originally posted by Alliance
Yeah, well I'm surprised it didn't sever his fingers when he stopped falling.

That too,

Those are some strong fingers
Hanging from the shaft in Ep1
Hanging from that flying droid in Ep2 AND that rope cord on Kamino
and finally hanging from that landing pad in Ep3 prior to despatching Grevious
Whole lot of hanging going on.

Jedi Fingers... yum yum

Ush, why do you think PT is better than ROTJ overall?

He just does. has good arguments for it. But I don't entirely agree with him.

I am interested in his arguments, as I enjoy his Star Wars RPG. I am not using those forums much besides role-playing, perhaps I am making a mistake? I would enjoy your arguments too.

I think that the first mistake was making Anakin a child in TPM. He shouldn`t have destroyed the Trade Federation ship in such a clumsy way. I see him as teenager that has much anger into him because of his life as slave. Romance would have worked much better if it started in TPM. Anakin would fight in the Naboo battle because of choice, as Luke. And he would not be a whiny brat in AOTC, more of a dark hero.

TPM should have been a bit more serious, there would be no problem with Jar-Jar if his time was reduced to serve the story. My girlfriend thinks Gungans are the coolest thing in PT.

TPM wasn't supposed to be serious. There is no civil war....everyone is happy and delusional in the midst of a decaying system.

Actually, TPM can be watched as a great children-movie as well as part of the Saga. It has completely diffrent tone that ROTS and others.

Umm, ALL The star wars movies are kiddie flicks. Lucas has the mentality of a 4 year old on Christmas and the writing skills of a lemur.

Originally posted by Alliance
TPM wasn't supposed to be serious. There is no civil war....everyone is happy and delusional in the midst of a decaying system.

That was the mistake I think. I always liked SW because you kinda fell in the middle of things... The universe had a history, it felt grounded in reality. TPM has nothing of that... too bad...

I wish TPM had started like it was THE BEGINNING of something.
It just felt like youd missed a few chapters.
I was looking at this before..i know we all know it by heart but i got to paste it(with a bit of tinkering)...........i mean cmon....what was Lucas smoking???
AND this is the guy who turned down frank darbohnts Indy IV script!!

BOSS NASS : Yousa cannot bees hair. Dis army of mackineeks up dare tis new
weesong!
QUI-GON : come again?
BOSS NASS : Wesa no like da Naboo! Un dey no like uss-ens. Da Naboo tink day
so smarty den us-ens. Day tink day brains so big.
OBI-WAN : Ok i got the bit about big brains....
BOSS NASS : No, mesa no tink so. Mesa scant talkie witda Naboo, and no
nutten talkie it outlaunders. Dos mackineeks no comen here! Dey not know of
uss-en.
OBI-WAN : thats just a noise
BOSS NASS : Wesa wish no nutten in yousa tings, outlaunder, and wesa no
care-n about da Naboo.
QUI-GON : hmmm
BOSS NASS : Wesa gonna speed yousaway.
QUI-GON :WTF
BOSS NASS : Wesa give yousa una bongo. Da speedest way tooda Naboo tis goen
through da core. Now go.
QUI-GON : From Schindlers List to THIS!!

This tinkering with the script is a laugh

LUKE
Vader. Is the dark side stronger?

YODA
No... no... no. Quicker, easier,
more seductive.

LUKE
But how am I to know the good side
from the bad?

YODA
You will know. When you are calm,
at peace. Passive. A Jedi uses
the Force for knowledge and
defense, never for attack.

LUKE
Yeah but more importantly will it help
me score chicks?






Any chance of a script tinkering thread????

Start it up.

then yoda reiterates "DO NOT QUESTION"

Looking by the chick action Yoda's had, I'd say that's a definite NO.

1234

those were pretty funny...

Originally posted by queeq
Start it up.

Will do
Should be summat new for us on here.

Cool

Originally posted by Tengu
i just dont understand how hes an idiot when he made the very thing you read and debate about. he caused a cultural movement, and his movies have influenced and inspired alot of people both famous and non-famous. Hes the reason theres even a thread to debate about this shit. i think its silly that you guys pick apart every little peice of the trilogy like its supposed to be perfect, then chastize and criticize him about it as if you could've done it better? yeah, obviously the acting and scripting wasnt as good as the OT, but how does that make him an idiot or a dumbass? he gives you something masterful with the OT, then he gives you something not as good you expected or hoped for with the PT, and for that all of a sudden hes a complete idiot?

i dont come in this forum too much but when i do, i see threads critizing the most miniscule tiny details about the movies, like ohh Palpatines head wasnt on straight in the Mace Windu duel, OMG THEY SUCK, IT RUINED THE MOVIE, or ohhh the duel choreography sucked....ya know just silly stuff like that. its like if your gonna b!tch about stuff like that then dont even watch the movie. I for one dont have a problem with the PT, it wasnt that bad that i want to make a big fuss over it.

Im not hating on you guys or anything, i just think its silly to do that. I mean the man isnt perfect, the movies arent perfect, he never said they were supposed to be perfect. He spent have his life making the shit some of you guys have in your favorite movie list and just cuz you dont like how the last ones turned out hes an idiot all of a sudden.

athough i do have a few things i dislike about the PT, i dont concern myself with every little detail i agree that people here can nitpick every little thing instead of really appreciating the movie for what it is

Originally posted by Lord Melkor
I am interested in his arguments, as I enjoy his Star Wars RPG. I am not using those forums much besides role-playing, perhaps I am making a mistake? I would enjoy your arguments too.

I think that the first mistake was making Anakin a child in TPM. He shouldn`t have destroyed the Trade Federation ship in such a clumsy way. I see him as teenager that has much anger into him because of his life as slave. Romance would have worked much better if it started in TPM. Anakin would fight in the Naboo battle because of choice, as Luke. And he would not be a whiny brat in AOTC, more of a dark hero.

TPM should have been a bit more serious, there would be no problem with Jar-Jar if his time was reduced to serve the story. My girlfriend thinks Gungans are the coolest thing in PT.


i agree with this also, the problem with TPM was anakin as a kid not jar jar

Is it now? JarJar and the poo-poo jokes were quite horrendous.

Oh my god, extremely

Nothing makes up for that, except editing it out and destroy all copies with them in it.

And that is just not possible

Maybe Lucas can do it while searching and destroying every copy of the Holiday Special.

I sure wouldn't mind, I would pay him to do it

What? To destroy the Holiday Special or the poo-poo jokes?

Both!

Watching the Holiday Special was.... interesting.

yeah ok i can agree that jarjar was part of the problem but he doesnt take all the blame. if anakin was a bit older and the story was more mature it might have worked better

Lucas takes the blame. Jar Jar doesn't even exist, he's all virtual. Should we go into Second Life to punish him?

Originally posted by queeq


Watching the Holiday Special was.... interesting.

To say at the very least

Originally posted by queeq
Lucas takes the blame. Jar Jar doesn't even exist, he's all virtual. Should we go into Second Life to punish him?

Already there

Disguised as an Ewok?

NO!!!!!! nuts

Would look nice on ya.

You know it would.

Ummmm.......no

Hm.

Hm?

No, hm.

Oh.

Hm.

Ahmmmm.

Another dead thread. Closing.