Will Steals Elizabeth's Thunder?

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Swann&Sparrow
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If we're aware that Jack Sparrow has many different facets, shouldn't we also be aware that the other characters are capable of that same depth?

The fact of the matter is that the three main characters have layers in which they disguise their true natures. Elizabeth is no exception. She is a woman who has hidden her pirate nature behind the genteel face of a governor's daughter. In fact, we've similar types of "aggressive" behavior from her before in Curse of the Black Pearl.

Though she doesn't 'shriek' in CotBP, it just so happens that she passionately raises her voice to convince Jack to be proactive toward the goal of saving Will. How shockingly hostile! For that matter, she shouts orders and takes command of the Interceptor for a short time when the threat of danger from the Black Pearl is great.

Her reaction in DMC was not over the top, or extreme because it illustrates an important theme that resonates through out the Pirates series. Jack Sparrow believes that "there is only what a man can do and what a man can't do". In other words, there are actions and there are words. In the imfamous "screeching" scene, this same theme can be applied with interesting results.

First as it's already been pointed out, the bulk of Elizabeth's frustration lies with Jack (the only wobly-legged, rum-soaked pirate present in the scene)(Though Norrington could easily give Jack a run for his money).
Second, what is interesting to note about the sequence is that Elizabeth seems to be reverting back to the Governor's daughter role, and more importantly, that the mask she seems to have donned is in relation to Will's reappearance.

Her lack of action is what is telling. Elizabeth is a woman of confidence and more importantly, of action. When she arrives in Tortuga to see Norrington surrounded, she doesn't hesitate to pull out her sword to join the fight. Yet, in the 'screeching scene' she shrinks back and reverts to the damsel in distress role. That shouldn't have caused irritation in viewers so much as it ought have raised some important questions about Elizabeth's nature!

Her words in the scene are equally critical. She is imploring for a civilized resolution to the discord--something that Elizabeth the pirate probably would never have considered. If Will hadn't stolen her sword, another interesting and telling action incidentally, she'd probably have been in the thick of it.

The words were those of a governor's daughter, but the action of yelling to implore the men to stop in such a pointed manner was a little of the pirate escaping from the gentle-woman facade. This shows that she is having greater difficulty concealing that aspect of her personality that she tries to subdue. The scene also high lights that Elizabeth is as changeable as Jack in that she can don or discard her facade dependent upon the given situation.
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This person has highlighted the key factor that I find fishy about
Will. I think he steals Elizabeth's thunder. The fact that he stole her sword in the three-way-sword-fight scene could symbolise that every time Will comes back into her life she's back to the damsil in distress line.

And without him she was indipendant, and she had to revert to the "Oh, Oh the heat!" part when Will took all she had to defend herself.

That's major symbolism right there, mates.

Swann&Sparrow
...................Anyone?.....................




.................Anyone at all?................

confused confused confused confused

johnnyforever
i'm sorry! i thought someone else would've answered you by now, or be able to 'communicate' with you. but could you sum it up a bit? 'cause it's a little confusing. lol

Surreal_44
Well, as usual, I am in near total disagreement.

I don't think that Elizabeth was slipping back into the damsel in distress mode.


She tried to appeal to all three men in various ways...the rum-soaked pirate comment was aimed more toward Jack than the other two, although it could have applied to any of them, then the bit about being civilized was probably aimed toward Will, and the whole fainting thing was more than likely geared toward Norrington...the only man out of the group who was been present both times when Elizabeth fainted (well, one was faked).


So no, Will is not stealing her thunder, nor is he trying to repress her. If that were the case, he'd never have taught her to fight with a sword in the first place, would he?

LovelyOne
I'll teach ye to steal me thunder Will darn you!!

that was a Jack sparrow reference lol

and the line alsi has a double meaning apparently..a sexual one..

johnnyforever
laughing

Liz: *SLAP* *stomps away*

Will: B..B..But.......... BUT!

Jack: Oh goody!

katelovespirate
dude S&S, I'm totally with you. brilliant post, mate. awesome. big grin

Swann&Sparrow
Lol thank you. Surreal you have a very good point, I do see that she was directing her dialog to the three men, but that was not my point. I thought she was losing her ablility to fight back fairly with Will talking her sword. And just like at times it seems Will is making her stronger, like when he taught her how to sword fight, he doesn't really let her use it.

He doesn't let her fight, he literatly TOOK AWAY her ability to fight. And that's gotta mean something.

The text inbetween the ------- is not mine, it's of someone else's at WordPlayer. My name there is The Anonomous Spelling Mistake.

Might've spelt that wrong.

And I think I've sumed it up pretty good after the ----- after the link.

LovelyOne
Good point^^ he took it away from her and she got PISSEd at being given an order too.


He's a tea leaf..

for those who don't know British slang that means teef

for those of you who don't know Black British slang that means thief

willofthewisp
Hmm, both are good points. To be truthful, though, if I were Will in this scene and Jack pulled a sword on me, I would take the nearest one I saw, even if it happened to be my fiancee's. So it could be argued that he sees him and Liz as a team, just with different roles. It's like the "guard the chest" line. That was of the utmost importance and she didn't do it just because she didn't want to be told what to do. They could have easily made her just as capable with a sword taking the chest in one arm and battling with the other. But she abandoned it to certain doom. So you could look at it as Liz always there to back Will up.

But like Surreal was saying, her main goal is to get them to stop. Think about it. She at least cares for all these guys and in a 3-way swordfight, it would be really easy for one of them to die. This is a time when they need to stick together.

Liz is a woman of action: resourceful, bold, quick-witted. But she also uses her mind. She knew she would need the letters of marque before she went looking for Will. She is the one that comes up with a strategy for the battle between the Pearl and the Interceptor. Even when Jack first rescues her from drowning she's not overwhelmed by the fact she nearly died and was just saved by a fugitive. She keeps her head and argues for his release. So I think she would use whatever idea she came up with (fainting) to get their attention.

LovelyOne
he soved her behind though as if to say "MY WOMAN ME PROTECT!

willofthewisp
Wouldn't you want your man to protect you? I would be a little suspicious of a guy who made me do all the dirty work. Plus, doesn't he have a right to be protective of her around Jack?

I had a question, but I didn't want to post a new topic. What is the significance of the "only a little" line?

Will: You threatened Miss Swann.
Jack: Only a little.

I don't want to go into the love triangle in this thread, but why does Jack say this? Is he just being a smart-ass? Did he pick up on Liz's lust for adventure? Is he trying to tell Will he was mostly bluffing? I ask because it ties in to the fact of how Will is so protective of her to begin with. He wasn't there when Jack saved her, so people must have been gossiping, and when their first thought was "a pirate's in town," Will's was "omigod, Liz!"

Not that I'm for W/E. I'm just playing devil's advocate. You can say a lot of negative things about his character, but I don't think it's justified to say that he's overbearing and purposely restrictive of her.

LovelyOne
Liz doesnt seem to want to be protected..(most occasions anyway) she can handle herself..that wasnt even a dangerous situation..

now when Liz really..REALLY needs it Will's not there to protect.

katelovespirate
eh, i wouldnt say he was overbearing... but he does seem to keep her on a pedastle a lot of the time. and not a "china doll in a case" pedastle... but just a pedastle of his ideal girl--- spunky, beautiful, but also completely honest. i dont think he has a very clear view of who Elizabeth actually is. So thats clearly going to lead to miscommunications between them.

I dont think Will meant to insult her by taking or sword or requesting that she guard the chest, but she may have taken it that way. She may have felt very insulted by it.

To her, it may have suggested that Will wasnt interested in what she thought about the situation-- that he expected her to take a back seat to his ideas.

Its not really important what Will actually meant by any of that--- its the way Elizabeth took it, ya know? thats the real story of communication.

willofthewisp
That's not exactly his fault, though. And he does try.

When swords are around, it's always a dangerous situation. Jack's not exactly the best swordsman and what if Norrington had just taken it from him and pointed it at Liz before she could dodge or counter it?

Sometimes it doesn't matter if someone wants protection or not. A lot of little kids would love to cross the street without looking, but Mom and Dad always grab them. I'm not saying women need men's protection (hell I'm going into the military in May and women should be allowed into combat), but I'm also big on protecting those you love. That's all Will's trying to do. It just doesn't usually work out for him.

LovelyOne
didnt say it wasnt his fault...just saying he's not there when she needs it most..which means a lack of a certain emotion towards Will..the raising of another towards Jack.

willofthewisp
Times Liz needed saving:
Nearly drowning: Will's at work being responsible! He's not invited to some uppity promotion ceremony.

Being kidnapped: Will tries, but is outnumbered and hit on the head. I have a feeling this would have happened to Jack, too.

Away from the pirates: Will does save her! Then she comes up with the strategy to get away from the Pearl (woo!) and has to save Will. That's just because he's in the wrong place.

Island: Again, Will was "leverage" and it was Jack Barbossa wanted to get rid of and he was probably just really pissed at Liz then. He wanted Will alive and you can't break free of six or seven undead pirates holding you. Getting off the island? Liz rescues herself.

Almost shot: Who had the other gun? Jack! Will knew the only way to kill Barbossa was to let his blood touch the chest. So yeah, Jack killed Barbossa so he wouldn't kill Liz, but it wouldn't have done anything if Will hadn't been where he was.

Jail: Will is trying to get her out of jail by naively listening to the devious short man. Mistake, but not really his fault.

Kracken: Will's a little busy being thrased about by a tentacle. Notice he's not protecting Liz by shouting "get the gun." He wants her in on the action there.

So while Jack is always there for Liz, it's out of opportune moments.

LovelyOne
for the second time..did I SAY it was his fault he's not there..I'm saying Liz feels something different with Jack than she does with will and IMO its t do with protection...

The scene on the pearl..that was jack DECIDING to risk his life for a woman...it wasnt an opertune moment..he could have left her to die but he didnt..He comes back for her..this has to mean something to her when she sees him.

katelovespirate
guys, its SOOOO obvious that Jack and Will have a secret plot to turn Liz into Xena.

big grin

LovelyOne
but serious...as Terry said..jack "HATES that side of himself"...

LovelyOne
interesting how Terry also said Liz "cant live with a certain side of herself" after what she does

perfect excuse to split them apart in AWE ay?

Surreal_44
Or bring them together, eventually. wink

sailorleo
or make jack realize he actually wants will....

savvysparrow
I have to agree with Surreal on this one. If they're planning on J/E in the grand scheme of things a lot of the tension between them has been resolved based on the idea of that kiss. So, how do you create tension as a writer?
Have a character who is guilt and doubt ridden over their actions. Also, prevent those same two characters from speaking for much of the movie, which is what is seen in the leaked script.

Not to mention, who says that it's a bad thing that she can't deal with what she did? If her intentions were so pure and simple with the kiss as saving the life of the crew, then why would she hate that part of herself that sacrificed him--unless there was more to it. Which is also what Terry said in the same quote.

LovelyOne
umm......

well...I smell something fishy about the ending ..I seriously think its gonna be a twist

and savvysparrow.. Jack hates the honest side of himself according to T&T

He hates it with a fiery vengeance..

which IMO may be indicating something..I don't think people are going to want to see Jack give up on his honest side..Its what makes us love him so much.

I think Elizabeth is the only one who can save him from that part dying....and staying dead.

willofthewisp
Well said. No one wants to cheer for a dishonest, indecent hero. They all have to have a heart deep down. I think the only reason Jack doesn't like his good side is that it makes his life harder. It would be very hard to be a pirate and live up to a moral code. He was even marooned for sparing people's lives and being a good person. Sigh. He'll come around.

Chiki Mina
I cant read al this Im sorry I have a F****** sty in my eye. All the men from POTC stopped her mostly from fighting or expressing her rights. Norrington did that to her, Will, her father, and even Norrington's men. They just dont let her express her self and fight like she wants to. That makes her even more agressive and makes her even more untamable. With Jack he jsut lets her what she wants to be. And he's the only one who knows who she really is.

savvysparrow
Originally posted by willofthewisp
Well said. No one wants to cheer for a dishonest, indecent hero. They all have to have a heart deep down. I think the only reason Jack doesn't like his good side is that it makes his life harder. It would be very hard to be a pirate and live up to a moral code. He was even marooned for sparing people's lives and being a good person. Sigh. He'll come around.


Here, here. I think you made an excellent point here Misty. Jack hates his honest streak because it has made his life harder as a Pirate. Think about it, every time Jack has done the right thing, he's essentially been punished for it. (He did the right thing with returning the slaves to Africa, and Beckett burned his ship, he did the right thing in rescuing Elizabeth from drowning and he nearly was executed, he did the right thing in coming back to the Pearl to save the crew, and he was chained to the mast to die.) Of course he's going to hate that part of himself, but just as Elizabeth's pirate nature is an intricate part of who she is, so is Jack's honest streak. One of the themes in the series is the importance of identity, and what happens when the whole person is divided or kept hidden. People get hurt, and personal relationships can't actually happen.

It's harder for him to survive in the Pirate world as an honest man but he can't deny that aspect of who he is any more. He'll have to reckon with both sides of his nature just like all the other characters.

savvysparrow
Originally posted by LovelyOne
umm......

well...I smell something fishy about the ending ..I seriously think its gonna be a twist

and savvysparrow.. Jack hates the honest side of himself according to T&T

He hates it with a fiery vengeance..

which IMO may be indicating something..I don't think people are going to want to see Jack give up on his honest side..Its what makes us love him so much.

I think Elizabeth is the only one who can save him from that part dying....and staying dead.


And I think that's probably what he likes about her. Is that from the beginning of their rather unlikely friendship, she always recognized that he was a pirate and a good man, the whole of who he is.

So, I think you're not too far off the mark on that one. Also, I have to agree about the ending. The writers have said that with writing an ending, it has to be both logical, and at the same time shocking.

So it will be unexpected, but make sense with where the series has gone so far. That could be anything smile

Chiki Mina
Well look what happened to him between him and barbossa. Jack is too good of a person and honest. He trusted Barbossa and led him into mutiny. He also tried to be a good man when he rescued liz, which led him to his death. His taken all this by heart. I think that after liz chained him up he was still satisfied. He didnt completely lost, it was Liz who lost because she fel into the trap-his trap. Which made liz want him even more.

sparrobethroxmy
thats makes perfect sense i 100% agree with u

Surreal_44
Well, something shocking and unexpected...


Maybe Beckett dies and his body is left behind, and as everyone sails off, he suddenly sits up and howls out to the world, "I WILL HAVE MY REVENGE!!"


That would be...not really shocking, since it seems to happen a lot in movies, but you know, shocking for the series. big grin


Or...it could be something different.

Chiki Mina
I vote something different lol

savvysparrow
And, if you really think about it enough, at the beginning of the leaked script of AWE, Jack and Elizabeth have reverted back to their old desires of the first film, or so it seems. Jack seems to only desire the Pearl, and whatever good man was left seems to have disappeared (even though there are scenes that indicate otherwise), Elizabeth is desperately clinging to the idea that Will still loves her (not that she didn't believe that he didn't in CotBP or doesn't in AWE).

But, at least in Jack's case, clinging to the idea that he desired freedom above all else was what got him into trouble in the first place. He turns to that because it is safe, it means that he doesn't have to feel or be burned for doing the right thing.

Chiki Mina
Originally posted by savvysparrow
And, if you really think about it enough, at the beginning of the leaked script of AWE, Jack and Elizabeth have reverted back to their old desires of the first film, or so it seems. Jack seems to only desire the Pearl, and whatever good man was left seems to have disappeared (even though there are scenes that indicate otherwise), Elizabeth is desperately clinging to the idea that Will still loves her (not that she didn't believe that he didn't in CotBP or doesn't in AWE).

But, at least in Jack's case, clinging to the idea that he desired freedom above all else was what got him into trouble in the first place. He turns to that because it is safe, it means that he doesn't have to feel or be burned for doing the right thing.

Jack just wants freedom above all else. But it led him troubles with Davy, Barbossa, hurricanes, the kraken, it led him into many troubles. Jack is in love what the pearl symbolizes which is freedom. But It got him into a lot of trouble.

Piracy itself its at its end. Theres too many hurricanes not enough treassure to steal. He could still use his ship, but piracy its still at risk.

LovelyOne
ahem..but just because that good man appears to be dead when we first see him in the AWE draft script..doesnt mean he wont be coming back ...wink..there is something ..SERIOUSLY major missed out of that AWE draft script..and then when the audience see him come back they will ask "hang on....where's Jack's _____ of ____?" stick out tongue

Chiki Mina
Originally posted by LovelyOne
ahem..but just because that good man appears to be dead when we first see him in the AWE draft script..doesnt mean he wont be coming back ...wink..there is something ..SERIOUSLY major missed out of that AWE draft script..and then when the audience see him come back they will ask "hang on....where's Jack's _____ of ____?" stick out tongue

Aa dammit! Is this like wheel of fortune!? Do I get to buy a vowel?

LovelyOne
imma stop now...silence is golden stick out tongue

PS what I'm, saying is basically me just guessing something..

Chiki Mina
SO I dont get to buy a vowel sad

LovelyOne
Originally posted by savvysparrow
And I think that's probably what he likes about her. Is that from the beginning of their rather unlikely friendship, she always recognized that he was a pirate and a good man, the whole of who he is.

So, I think you're not too far off the mark on that one. Also, I have to agree about the ending. The writers have said that with writing an ending, it has to be both logical, and at the same time shocking.

So it will be unexpected, but make sense with where the series has gone so far. That could be anything smile
THANKS!! where did you hear that was this in an interview??

because i gotta tell ya there is something FISHY goin on here...

Chiki Mina
Didnt I just say that^^^ I knew something was fishy!!

LovelyOne
I knew something was fishy a long time ago when I heard about the supposed ending to AWE..remember the fist stage of grief this forum went though? I 've been saying it since then and people shouted me down like a mo fo..laughing out loud

LovelyOne
savvy..as you say it has to match in with what we have seen with all of the movies so far..

And with Jack..the case is

bad man..develops..something major changes in his life. (yes Jack made 2 friends who he cares for above others in movie 1)

it happens in movie 1 and 2

but I think in the 3rd its gonna be like "WHOAH! REWIND WHAT?" hence the suppsed shocking twist"

and so movie 4 can begin...and tell us how big grin...possibly

again where was the interview where they said that can you give me a link?

Chiki Mina
What are you saying for the 4th? THtas its more like a prequel?

LovelyOne
a "re invention" according to kate's source..so yeah basically a prequel type thing me thinks

if Orlie's not in the 4th and Keira is then the ending of AWE is gonna have to be a sort of cliff hanger in some way for a 4th IMO...and its gonna have to be tied in with Jack.

Chiki Mina
so0o0o theres a possible cliff hanger for the 3rd movie. but its still solve some things that was unresolved from the ending of AWE.

savvysparrow
Originally posted by LovelyOne
THANKS!! where did you hear that was this in an interview??

because i gotta tell ya there is something FISHY goin on here...


It wasn't an interview and it was on this forum. Someone posted things the writers have said about screen writing, and I think it applies here. They said that 9 times out of ten an ambiguous ending will not succeed and that it really isn't good screen writing. So they said that the ending has to be both logical, and at the same time, have an element of surprise.

It was way back on one of the other thread, can't even recall the title. But it was in the progression of how to write a sex scene, character development that sort of thing.

But we have to keep in mind that even if the writers are doing a shocking twist of an ending, it has to have a sense of resolution to it. Gore, and pretty much every one involved has said that after AWE there will be no need to do a sequel. Now, they're intending to do a fourth, so logically, a movie perhaps about the legend of Jack Sparrow may in fact be in order...

It's up for grabs.

savvysparrow
Originally posted by LovelyOne
savvy..as you say it has to match in with what we have seen with all of the movies so far..

And with Jack..the case is

bad man..develops..something major changes in his life. (yes Jack made 2 friends who he cares for above others in movie 1)

it happens in movie 1 and 2

but I think in the 3rd its gonna be like "WHOAH! REWIND WHAT?" hence the suppsed shocking twist"

and so movie 4 can begin...and tell us how big grin...possibly

again where was the interview where they said that can you give me a link?


Yes, but Jack can't be pigeon holed as a bad man. He's more complex than that.

So what do you think is going to be the whoah, rewind moment. Jack murders Elizabeth and Will in their sleep?

LovelyOne
hmm....well in AWE.I think he's gonna be pretty bad for a while
no I dont think he's gonna do anthing bad..but he's back to his old ways in a heart beat wouldnt you agree?

the way movie 3 ends..it could be a prequel big grin because movie 3 appears to end in the future.

LovelyOne
YEP^^ that kinda covers my theory if its an "ambiguous" ending..but it also coveres the other possibility too..but in terms of Jack and development it would be the most understandable thing..IMO

savvysparrow
You're like a cat with the canary its mouth. You've obviously learned something that's changed the tune you've been singing...


Obviously, Jack has to revert back to his old ways, because as early as the scene in which Will reappears in DMC, it appears that she's reverted back to her old ways. So he has to prove more to himself than to any one else, how much he doesn't care for her or for anyone else. Hence why he trades her to Sao Fen, even though that's really partly his way of trying to teach her a lesson. The theme of AWE is that every one believes that Jack is a man without a heart. Which isn't the case sadly, but whether or not he can prove he does have a heart is completely up in the air.

Though why would movie 3 ending in the future imply that the next movie may in fact be a prequel?

LovelyOne
when you say old ways for Liz what do you mean?..like her weak old self?

Yes something has changed my tune..not recently though...I've had a feeling about this for a long time..well there is a bit of a recent difference...a certain riddle I'm reading into that is linked with PotC

the way the ending in AWE revision script is..it could be either..but IMO something suggests one possibility is stronger than the other..and its the various subtle hints in DMC and AWE and that little riddle.

frig talk about being cryptc LovelyOne

LovelyOne
Originally posted by savvysparrow

Though why would movie 3 ending in the future imply that the next movie may in fact be a prequel?

because it raises the question:

"What the ****?"

its a very ambiguous ending IMO

Chiki Mina
But I dont think Liz was ever weak. She just had all that agression and all that potential in her. Elizabeth is just sometimes too afraid to show her true colors. But what sacres her is that only one person knows who she really is: Jack

savvysparrow
Originally posted by LovelyOne
when you say old ways for Liz what do you mean?..like her weak old self?

Yes something has changed my tune..not recently though...I've had a feeling about this for a long time..well there is a bit of a recent difference...a certain riddle I'm reading into that is linked with PotC

the way the ending in AWE revision script is..it could be either..but IMO something suggests one possibility is stronger than the other..and its the various subtle hints in DMC and AWE and that little riddle.

frig talk about being cryptc LovelyOne



When I say Liz is returning to her old ways, I mean that I'm of a mind that like Jack, Liz has developed a facade to navigate and survive in her world.

Jack's method of betraying before he is in fact betrayed is his method of surviving in the pirate world.

So, why can't the same be said of Elizabeth?

Actually, the writers have this great quote about how the only real act of piracy we see in the movie is when Elizabeth hijacks the Edinburgh without firing a shot. To which Ted asks, who does that sound like?

I'm saying that her clinging to her old values, Will and that she is the prim and proper Governor's daughter is her way of protecting herself from getting hurt essentially. Even though she is at heart, a pirate.

LovelyOne
ah..ok that is interesting^^

savvysparrow
I'm also of the same mind that Elizabeth's interactions with Jack run deeper than lust. Certainly, that's a huge part of it, but I think she was trying to figure out the whole time whether or not he was capable of feeling the same way that she was.

I think that this was the case from the beginning of the movie and their first meeting together when she asks if Jack is telling her the truth.

She sees the good man, knows that he's there, and I think the combination of Jack's two warring personalities would be a man that she could give her whole heart to. But Jack works against himself and ends up sabotaging himself in in the end.

When Will returns, and Elizabeth's faith is shaken in him, she says, everything you said to me, every word was a lie. To which he replies, pretty much. Thus indicating to her that he can't be trusted with her heart. So she sacrifices him, and returns to Will because that is the safer route.

Surreal_44
I dunno...if I were Liz I might cling to Will a little longer in AWE too! He's going to be so good-looking in his new duds I don't think Liz would ever want to leave him. Mmm, those boots...


Oh, and I am not sure that Disney would go for a really, really shocking ending. I think a surprise ending, but not the kind of soap opera-ish ending that a lot of people seem to be hinting at.


No matter what, it's still Disney, folks. big grin

savvysparrow
Well, I said Will was the safer route. That doesn't make him the less good looking route smile hahah, really if I were Liz, I don't think I'd make a decision.

And surreal has a point, the ending has to be logical, but surprising. They won't go for yet another surprise ending. It would be over kill. And keep in mind that they were not always intending to do a fourth movie. So there has to be a sense of closure....a sigh of relief if you will.

Swann&Sparrow
Honey, you could keep saying that Lizzie won't leave Will, but a new pair of boots and duds won't change his personality and actions. Lizzie will choose sure, but I believe she will choose what her heart desires not what she would run BACK to.

That's my key point, she clings to Will cause that's all she knows. She's known him much more than Jack, but at the same time she could connect with Jack much much more. As you could see with any scene the two have together.

I think the thing she's really afraid of is his lifestyle. He's a pirate, and that's risky, especially with the EITC on their tail. So maybe she'll stick with Will, but her pirate side and her burning curiosity will drive her to Jack.

I think that would be a worthwhile ending, not a sappy 'happily ever after' ending that Disney has been marked for. Afterall, it's not just Disney, it's Jerry Bruckhiemer and T&T, their famous for heartwrenching, beautiful and brutishly breathtaking films.

Not fairy tales.

Surreal_44
See, if I were Liz, and it weren't a Disney movie, I'd suggest that Norrington, Will, and Jack just go on an extended cruise with me... evil face evil face


But oh yes...Will...I feel my lust for him growing.

Surreal_44
Elizabeth ditching the entire life she's known and running off with Jack WOULD be a fairy tale ending.


A bittersweet, good ending would be Elizabeth loving both men but chosing to be with only one of them...and I strongly suspect that no matter how hot they are together, nor how much of a connection Jack and Elizabeth share, that in the end, she will stay with Will...and I don't think it'd be out of comfort. I think it will be because that's where she'd be happiest.

Swann&Sparrow
"See, if I were Liz, and it weren't a Disney movie, I'd suggest that Norrington, Will, and Jack just go on an extended cruise with me...


But oh yes...Will...I feel my lust for him growing."

That has nothing to do with anything.

LovelyOne
Originally posted by Surreal_44
Elizabeth ditching the entire life she's known and running off with Jack WOULD be a fairy tale ending.


A bittersweet, good ending would be Elizabeth loving both men but chosing to be with only one of them...and I strongly suspect that no matter how hot they are together, nor how much of a connection Jack and Elizabeth share, that in the end, she will stay with Will...and I don't think it'd be out of comfort. I think it will be because that's where she'd be happiest.

well..Terry&Ted said her clothes coming off and dress sinking resembles the fact that she has let go of her old way of life with Will..for good..old way of life I mean here...no meaning Will..but something has changed with her and her way of life.

in the commentary this is.

and..well, to the second part of your post.......*keeps shtum*

the ending is very..WHAT THE ****? kinda thing..as in..its ambiguous..which is what their intent is with that ending apprently..

in other words its:

open to or having several possible meanings or interpretations

Swann&Sparrow
Obviously ditching Will wouldn't be a fairy tale. I think your vison of a J/E ending is a bit off. I don't imagine them sailing off together and kissing in the sunset, that's a fairy tale.

I expect T&T to make me cry, die of anger and bring me to my knees before those credits hit the screen. I know that no matter what Liz chooses we will be stunned and breathless, it's not just about love.

It's not just about romance or lust. It's about adventure, about freedom and piracy. The classic triumph of good over evil. That will move us to tears, and that alone. The love is only part of the movie, there is much more at work.

Honesty, courage, curiosity and freedom. That's what Pirates means to me. Not just 'which man does she choose?'

That wouldn't satisfy me, love alone is boring without that added fear and excitment of adventure.

And I believe that Lizzie knows that too. And I BELIEVE that she will choose her adventure, her freedom and her love.

And I believe that is Jack.

savvysparrow
Originally posted by Surreal_44
Elizabeth ditching the entire life she's known and running off with Jack WOULD be a fairy tale ending.


A bittersweet, good ending would be Elizabeth loving both men but chosing to be with only one of them...and I strongly suspect that no matter how hot they are together, nor how much of a connection Jack and Elizabeth share, that in the end, she will stay with Will...and I don't think it'd be out of comfort. I think it will be because that's where she'd be happiest.




Well, yes and no. I agree that her running off with Jack after all the things that are rumoured to happen in AWE seems slightly escapist...Especially if Will meets his untimely demise.


On the other hand, who says that she has to choose? What if both men decide that they've grown beyond Elizabeth? It's a possibility. I'm not saying that I like it.

Or, who is to say that Elizabeth's two warring personalities won't be united in the film? Surreal is right in that the Port Royal, Will Turner, traditional woman is very much a part of who she is, as much as the pirate aspect of her nature. Like Jack, her self will not be at rest until those aspects find some sort of a balancing act.

katelovespirate
but they did promise it would find a sense of closure, at least concerning the love triangle. whether they do a fourth movie or not, they owe it to us to clear that up.

i cant imagine Elizabeth being happiest with Will. Happy, yes... but clearly her marriage to Will was tied in with life in Port Royal, sticking to protocal, wearing a corset, etc.

When the dress sank, the writers have basically said flat out that her committment to marrying Will sank with it. I think that's pretty clear. Not that she doesnt love Will anymore, but the restraints that went along with that relationship are gone. That can't really be argued.

Why would she stay with Will if the connection with Jack were stronger and more consistent with who she is? that wouldn't make any sense.

neither ending will be fairytale anymore. these films arent fairytales. they are action, they are adventure, they are gritty and views of an imperfect world.
but they also arent tragedies and they arent completely true to reality.

She cant have a fairytale with Will anymore. SHe's betrayed his trust, he has forfeited her complete loyalty. If they build a new relationship despite that, the scars will still be there.

If she ends up with Jack, that will mean saying goodbye to her childhood love, as well as coming to terms with the kind of man Jack is. He's been with other women, he's in no way perfect.

Swann&Sparrow, just read your post. awesome. totally. big grin

savvysparrow
Not only that, but in AWE, he subsequently betrays her trust. Kate's right in that it will be a very realistic ending.

LovelyOne
Well Kate..with the ______ of_____ only making its appearence there and its LACK of it once Jack was pulled out..that ending should signify something..plus the SONG..since when was that tied in with Will Turner?

remember..JACK needs to have closure too...with the end of this trilogy...that certain part of him being dead forever...i DONT buy it..

katelovespirate
giggle... poor Will. no song for him as far as I know.

I'm quite confident the _______ of _______ is going to make a dramatic re-appearance. big grin

Swann&Sparrow
Well thank you so much. I'm blushing.

I think you're right Kate. It's extremly difficult to patch up a relationship when one person thinks your inlove with another (even though Elizabeth is in love with Jack, she still told Will she wasn't) there is mistrust. And with mistrust there are problems.

If Lizzie were to come out and say everything about her feelings about Jack and Will, there'd be no way she could go back to Will, he'll be hurt. And I also think that if she did confess everything there is no possible way she could be with Will.

He'd be hurt, and so will she. He'd know that he can't offer her anything more than that she doesn't want, and I believe that he has enough decency to see the truth, and hear it too. If Lizzie told him everything, and I mean everything, not just parts of the truth she'll allow him, every waking moment she'd shared with Jack and every single feeling.

If she'd do that, he'd understand how much their relationship fell apart, how much they don't fit.

He'd let her go. He'd let her be happy.

Swann&Sparrow
I would love to aquiant myself with this interesting ________ of ____...

I wonder if Lovely One could PM about them?

a-k-a-amber
yes I would like to know what _________of________ is if yall dont mind? smile

LovelyOne
Sorry I'm not spreading that laughing out loud

LovelyOne
Originally posted by katelovespirate
giggle... poor Will. no song for him as far as I know.

I'm quite confident the _______ of _______ is going to make a dramatic re-appearance. big grin

I dont think they even have it appear in the movie until the very end..its only described by a character we dont actually see it till the very end.

evilm0nki3
I wish to know what that means lol

ill have to figure it out myself then...

Swann&Sparrow
Come one LovelyOne. I won't tell anyone, pwease?!

I really gotta know, you're torturing me! It's not very endearing.

You know what I just thought, Lizzie and Jack are almost like Logan and Jean from X-Men.

They're both so beautiful together, Logan's the bad boy and Jean's the respectable woman. But she's with Scott, and he loves her. She knows she loves him too.

Maybe Pirates ends the same way X-Men ends. Lizzie is killed by her one and true love...Jack...

A possibilty, yes...That would explaine the shocking twist. Not that I'm rooting for that, I'd hate that, but it's always something to think of.

katelovespirate
i'll give ya all a hint. ____ of ______ is hott. well, in my opinion anyways. giggle.

thats kind of not very helpful. sorry.

a-k-a-amber
okay... well is it a BIG part of the movie?

katelovespirate
its all a matter of perspective.

evilm0nki3
The only thing I can think of is Knights of Cydonia lol


blank of blank........


........

savvysparrow
Well, it could be jar of dirt, or heart of hearts, or sense of humor......

Any of those are big parts of the movie... smile

katelovespirate
or knights of camelot

or ring of power

or abs of steel

evilm0nki3
abs of steel

lol

Swann&Sparrow
Lol, Jar of Dirt is hot?

Hmmm, maybe. Is it a ship, person (gots to be a person if they're hot)....

So, lol, all I could think of is Jack of Blades.

a-k-a-amber
lol um does it have anything to do with that Fan Fiction version of P3? cause i was thinking.... naw never mind

Swann&Sparrow
FF?

Do you, by any chance, mean Final Fantasy. That's the only think I know that has the acronims FF.

LOL, I know I need to get out more.

katelovespirate
so anyways, what were we discussing??

katelovespirate
and dude, the jar of dirt is totally hott big grin

willofthewisp
Don't put inside stuff on a post no one will understand. I'm intrigued by it now.

How can Liz be happy with Will now that she's had a taste of the adventure she's always wanted? She seems to enjoy that lifestyle, and I'm not saying Will would intentionally weigh her down, but she doesn't seem to like the conventional life a woman of her status lives. Even if you take love for Jack out of the picture, she's gotten to experience pirate life and I don't think she just needs to get it out of her system. She's an adventurous, unconventional girl and I don't think she would be happy just being the lady of the house of some blacksmith in a town that gets raided by pirates.

a-k-a-amber
never mind *grins*

katelovespirate
heeheehee. plates of waffles...

savvysparrow
hahahah! These are all cracking me up. Abs of steel was awesome, and I'm rather partial to plates of waffles. smile

willofthewisp
Plates of biscuits would just look weird.

katelovespirate
Originally posted by LovelyOne
I dont think they even have it appear in the movie until the very end..its only described by a character we dont actually see it till the very end.


willo just had a brainwave about that. suggested that maybe the twist was that Jack was dead for the whole movie... hmmm...

Chiki Mina
Im sorry fellas. I hope I dont sound like a ***** or anything...but the _____ and ______ its kind of driving me crazy. If its a spoiler you dont want to to share please keep it to yourselfs sad Im sorry if taht sounded rude, but its getting me a little anxious. Either Pm or dont tease pleaasee. But if its just a whatever like no spoiler or anything let me know because Im getting out of my mind.

a-k-a-amber
Originally posted by Chiki Mina
Im sorry fellas. I hope I dont sound like a ***** or anything...but the _____ and ______ its kind of driving me crazy. If its a spoiler you dont want to to share please keep it to yourselfs sad Im sorry if taht sounded rude, but its getting me a little anxious. Either Pm or dont tease pleaasee. But if its just a whatever like no spoiler or anything let me know because Im getting out of my mind. im with Chicki on this one...

LovelyOne
tell you what..I WILL keep it to myself laughing out loud

and is there really a need to swear?

Im not teasing..I'm just having a discussion with one other person who knows what I'm talking about..

but I apologise I will stop now. It is unfair.

a-k-a-amber
Originally posted by LovelyOne
tell you what..I WILL keep it to myself laughing out loud

and is there really a need to swear?

Im not teasing..I'm just having a discussion with one other person who knows what I'm talking about..

but I apologise I will stop now. It is unfair. okay but promise me come May or after i see the movie if i still dont get it will you explain it to me?

Chiki Mina
Originally posted by LovelyOne
tell you what..I WILL keep it to myself laughing out loud

and is there really a need to swear?

Im not teasing..I'm just having a discussion with one other person who knows what I'm talking about..

but I apologise I will stop now. It is unfair.

I noticed 3 people know sad

And yeah I swear alot cant help it pinch

WHere are my Orbit Gums

LovelyOne
3 people dont know..only 1

LovelyOne
she's the only other person with the revision script.

LovelyOne
I'm just very interested in something..and I cant express it here and its killing melaughing out loud....I want to discuss it with everyone just to get some ideas to see if the theory is credible..but I'll stop now I'm sorry...

Chiki Mina
o0o bc i see willo and kate doing ___ and ____ also lol. Oh well.

Wheres a brain when you need one

LovelyOne
they are all saying that because they dont understand what the heck I mean..well kate does..she's the only one

I was saying it in response to something she said.

Chiki Mina
Aha!^^ its ok lol. I ____ and _____ you

LovelyOne
HUH?? laughing out loud

oh I wil____ and then____..but before that ___ the___ and then fill in the______ with cement...then leave it to dry and then____ its___

Chiki Mina
LMAO

oh Lovely you can be ______ and ______ and make us wanna _______ you.

LovelyOne
yes..gladly big grin

katelovespirate
dude guys, i just saw a flipping _______ on the ________ and eamiled _______ and he said __________________________________________________
____________. well that clears it up, huh?!

Chiki Mina
That surely __________________ me up big grin

Mistypirate
OMFG I love this encoding stuff, I watched The DaVinci Code 6 times. And read the novel a million times big grin

Swann&Sparrow
Guys, didn't we just establish the fact that those blanks aren't helping. If you wanna talk about blanks PM PLEASE. It's getting rather annoying and I don't wanna yell.

It's alittle rude, almost like you're rubbing your knowledge in our faces. Please stop, it's not fun.

LovelyOne
the blanks are now a joke..they dont mean anything...

I said the word cement...did they have cement back in the 17th cent big grin

Jkz..but seriously I'm not gonna PM peeps..that was only really meant to be Kate and i wanted to get a quick answer instead of making a PM...didnt think it would cause so much trouble..

I shall never do that again I promise..Kate is the only one with the revision script like me.

savvysparrow
I think they're making fun of themselves Swann and Sparrow. They're not actually insinuating anything.

But why don't we bring it back to a more interesting topic of conversation?

Such as, who is it that kills Beckett off?

You know the little __________ has to get his come uppance some how.

So who is it that has just cause?

katelovespirate
HAHAHAHA ya pegged me. I was just being goofy. LOL.


Personally, I wonder if Beckett really is going to die. Ya know? Maybe they will pull a "leave Humperdink alone with his cowardice."

Cause everyone has just cause for killing the _________.

LovelyOne
ANYWAY guys..the main thing I've been talking/tiptoeing around is actually what I've been saying out loud for MONTHS..and it got swept under the rug recently this is why people dont know what I'm talking about...

.it wasnt too far back that I had this whole theory..only now there is something else there that makes me think Its a J/E deal..and THAt was what the blank was about.

Mistypirate
Personally I really don't mind not knowing the______of_______ thing. And don't mind that other people talk about it. It just makes this a little bit more interesting, deciphering what the heck they are talking about. I know we can come up with some interesting things regarding the________of_________ thing, person, group or whatever. And that song they are talking about and the theory that Lovely is saying, that she talked a few months ago.

Swann&Sparrow
Ah shoot. I didn't mean to ruin your fun. I was just getting alittle edgy, I kinda need to clear up this topic. Sorry if I was rude, I didn't mean to be.

katelovespirate
i think we can all pull a very useful lesson from this:

__ _____ ______ _______ _ ______ ____, _________ ____ _____ _______ ___ _____.

Swann&Sparrow
Great, more lines.

That's just so much fun.

I can't even express how fun that is.

Okay, on a different topic. You guys all have to go to Word Player when they're not on break (mods are on break today) and stand up for Jack. There's a thread about Jack's back history and there's this craza guy that said Jack isn't blah blah.

I don't remember the whole thing, I'm The Anonomous Spelling Mistake. Guys, help Jack!

savvysparrow
Haha, the nerd in me totally wants to fill in the blanks, but I think I'll end up driving myself crazy with the 800 million possibilities. Where is Tom Hanks in a bad wig when you need him?

savvysparrow
Originally posted by Swann&Sparrow
Great, more lines.

That's just so much fun.

I can't even express how fun that is.

Okay, on a different topic. You guys all have to go to Word Player when they're not on break (mods are on break today) and stand up for Jack. There's a thread about Jack's back history and there's this craza guy that said Jack isn't blah blah.

I don't remember the whole thing, I'm The Anonomous Spelling Mistake. Guys, help Jack!


Ha, if you only knew the truth. I'll Pm you but I need a clever ruse to divert attention...


______ _ _____ _

katelovespirate
point taken. big grin

LovelyOne
what??..now I think imin the dark..someone explain?

savvysparrow
I wasn't making a point about the PMing or the fill in the blanks. Please, continue. It's actually amusing me.
I genuinely did need to clear something up. That's all smile Go back to your lives citizens.

Mistypirate
Ok you guys this is easy stuff, If you really, really want to find out what they are talking about, do some research. Go back to the last threads that Lovely is talking about and, that nobody didn't paid no mind. I'm sure you guys will get an idea of what's going on.

LovelyOne
am still very confused^^^ confused
you mean my threads from like 3 months ago misty when I first revealed what the ending might be?

I was as unsure back then as I am now..I still dont even know if the scene is in there or not laughing out loud

savvysparrow
Yes, someone should bring those back. And while we're at it, someone should also find that thread where the writers were talking about their writing process, and how an ending should be logical and surprising in the same moment.

katelovespirate

Mistypirate
Originally posted by LovelyOne
am still very confused^^^ confused
you mean my threads from like 3 months ago misty when I first revealed what the ending might be?

I was as unsure back then as I am now..I still dont even know if the scene is in there or not laughing out loud


LOL I don't know, maybe. It might be the one about the baby you were talking about or the rip, or the death.

katelovespirate
smileys are the new ________

big grin

LovelyOne
Originally posted by Mistypirate
LOL I don't know, maybe. It might be the one about the baby you were talking about or the rip, or the death.

yesh..those came out WAY back on the board like 3 months ago

but is the baby Will's or Jacks?

IMO that baby is Jack's

katelovespirate
no way guys. that baby is norri's.

Mistypirate
Removed: I was being dumb

Mistypirate
Originally posted by LovelyOne
yesh..those came out WAY back on the board like 3 months ago

but is the baby Will's or Jacks?

IMO that baby is Jack's


Yes you said that you dint know if that part was there or not.

But you are saying that it is Jack's?
eek!

savvysparrow
Thanks Kate! You're amazing! That's exactly what I was talking about.

The most important question of the entire Pirates series is, why? Why do the characters behave in a certain way, or make those particular choices. That's what's important in terms of looking at the set-up of the triangle.

Also, they talk about emotional versus story logic. Also important when looking at the series as a whole. And I'm not saying that there's a right or wrong interpretation with the story vs. emotional logic in this instance. It actually can go both ways, which is absolutely mind boggling.

Chiki Mina
I doubt there will be a Will Jr. LIz and will wont have the time to do not even a quickie

katelovespirate
Originally posted by savvysparrow
Thanks Kate! You're amazing! That's exactly what I was talking about.

The most important question of the entire Pirates series is, why? Why do the characters behave in a certain way, or make those particular choices. That's what's important in terms of looking at the set-up of the triangle.

Also, they talk about emotional versus story logic. Also important when looking at the series as a whole. And I'm not saying that there's a right or wrong interpretation with the story vs. emotional logic in this instance. It actually can go both ways, which is absolutely mind boggling.

yeah absolutely. good thoughts.

the writers method of thinking is just a bit beyond mine, i reckon. cause half the time, i think it makes tons of sense, but then they contradict themselves...

LovelyOne
OMG kate..what do you think on that post?/ what are your opinions?

they sure do..because the unexpected ending WAS given clues throughout the movie in DMC

there were various hints that Barbossa was there or was goign to appear again..but they SLIP past you until the second time you watch it



"And hey, if you want a really big hint, let your hero smile in Act I, Act II and Act III. Works every time."
now THAT interests me a GREAT DEAL^^

do you think they are talking about each act in 1 story or each movie seperatley

because at the END of movie 1 and movie 2 Jack is smiling and has LIZ on the brain



movie 3 act 3?

katelovespirate
im sorry, which post?

LovelyOne
Originally posted by Mistypirate
Yes you said that you dint know if that part was there or not.

But you are saying that it is Jack's?
eek!

in my OPINION its Jack's..

where as logic and all the spoilers coming out from Terry and such would suggest its Will's sad

savvysparrow
Originally posted by LovelyOne
OMG kate..what do you think on that post?/ what are your opinions?

they sure do..because the unexpected ending WAs given clues throughout the movie in DMC

there were various hints that Barbossa was there..but they SLIP past you until the second time you watch t


And hey, if you want a really big hit, let your hero smile in Act I, Act II and Act III. Works every time.
now THAT interests me a GREAT DEAL^^

do you think they are talking about each act in 1 story or each movie seperatley

because at the END of each act in PotC 1 Jack is smiling and has LIZ on the brain

Jack in movie 2 ends it smiling and has LIZ on the brain

movie 3 act 3?


Yes, I've always thought that. But then I've always thought the romance was J/E and not W/E, especially after DMC.

Apparently, there is a quote from Terry somewhere that he thinks the most romantic scene in CotBP is the island sequence.


Anyway, it's a pretty classic story. This is the middle portion of the act in which the couple parts based on a series of unfortunate misunderstandings, which is basically all of DMC

They constantly misinterpret each other's signals.

LovelyOne
the big one you posted kate big grin

Mistypirate
So far I haven't read anything that would suggest otherwise smile . But if it's Jack's I think the movie is going to end with Jack NOT knowing he has a son. ThaT is if something happens in AWE between J/L

Mistypirate
Yes I remember reading something like that. I don't know were I read it, I'll hunt it down.

katelovespirate

LovelyOne
well movie 3 appears to be very Will/Liz based from many of the stories I;m hearing..but the ending is supposed to be obvous yet unexpected kinda thing right?..remember movie 2/3 is basically 1 movie split into 2! act 1 and 2 are both already there IMO in DMC..possibly the first half of AWE..

all the hints In the movies when it comes to THAT kind of ending with a child..ALL points to Jack.

the overt sexual tension of DMC between J/E..you just KNOW they are gonna have sex...you EXPECT them to have sex...but AWE would make you think..DAMN sad never gonna happen..but it SHOULD!..hence we get the inevitable and Jack has had a son with Liz.

there are also various lines about children and it always revolves around JACK

LovelyOne
LOL kate..I agree with everything you say 100%

katelovespirate
yay! big grin

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