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Their both a ton of muscle ,but if on land spidey would win, if in sea namor would kick butt.

Nah. Namor wins regardless. Spidey would put up a helluva fight, but would have a hard time dodging enough to pull out a win.

If one was to go by spidey's actual abilities

Which include

1. Class 20 strength (increases with stress) with added speed to create class 50 or stronger hits.
2. Superspeed and agility. Can become a blur or flash at times.
3. Super reflexes. Can see a 1000mph bullet traveling at 25mph.
4. Superstrong upgraded webbing. Can even slow the Hulk down for a few seconds.
5. Decent durability. Has taken blows from Juggs, Hulk, etc. and was still in battle.
6. Super stamina. Can go hours maybe days at peak performance without tiring.
7. Spider sense. Is actually precog. Spidey has dodged homing lasers (speed of light) with this. Note: It will be impossible for spidey to dodge light speed attacks without his spidersense because he can't actually move in the required speed (speed of light) to dodge them.
8. Very intelligent. He has beaten foes way more powerful than himself simply by using his brains.

With that said
Spidey with these abilities without compromise and inconsistency should win all on land (As he won't ever get hit).
Abilities 2, 3, and 7 are enough to ensure at least stalemate.

^^ Nice stuff.

And yes, he's gone toe-to-toe with people in Namor's class. It's not impossible.

But still unlikely, as much as I love Pete. Namor's got some enhanced reflexes too, and water or not he's well above Class 100.

The Spider may give Namor a tussle, but it will not be enough.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
^^ Nice stuff.

And yes, he's gone toe-to-toe with people in Namor's class. It's not impossible.

But still unlikely, as much as I love Pete. Namor's got some enhanced reflexes too, and water or not he's well above Class 100.

I doubt it. As marvel doesn't think so
Added to the fact that just because he lifted over 100 tons doesn't make him class 100 or anyone else.

for example
spidey was class 10 when he lifted more than 40 tons several times.

cap was peak human 800lbs. when he lifted a few tons before.

and the list goes on

For a character to be at a certain class two things have to happen.
First, that character have to show this level of strength consistently throughout their career and second, marvel hq has to think so.

And it is not unlikely since spidey can't be hit by namor (If spidey is using the abilities listed in my above post).

Fully amphibious physiology suited for extreme pressures.-Not really needed.
superhuman strength-This guy takes out Hulk in mere punches.
speed-Namor dodges lasers and people regularly.
durability-Oh, this guy doesn't take hits from Hulk and such?
Flight-A major advantage over Peter here.
Telepathic control over marine life-So yeah, maybe a whale will eat Peter or something.
electrical powers-Well electric shocks could stop Peter for a few seconds.
ages slowly-Yeah, so he will last longer.

Originally posted by Sub_Mariner
Fully amphibious physiology suited for extreme pressures.-Not really needed.
superhuman strength-This guy takes out Hulk in mere punches.
speed-Namor dodges lasers and people regularly.
durability-Oh, this guy doesn't take hits from Hulk and such?
Flight-A major advantage over Peter here.
Telepathic control over marine life-So yeah, maybe a whale will eat Peter or something.
electrical powers-Well electric shocks could stop Peter for a few seconds.
ages slowly-Yeah, so he will last longer.



Spider-sense - Spiderman won't be hit. Ever. Under any circumstance. In or out of a hostile scenario. Regardless.

Ever.

What could spider-man possibly do to Namor?

even if we give him the speed advantage (which im not sure he has) Namor has taken hits that Spider-Man only dreams of throwing.

Spidey has fought peeps like juggs or hulk, and for the most part the story is filled with PIS or some CIS, where he is able to confine juggs in cement or calm down the hulk.

All that aside, Namor should be able to shrug off what spidey hits him with

Originally posted by inamilist
What could spider-man possibly do to Namor?

even if we give him the speed advantage (which im not sure he has) Namor has taken hits that Spider-Man only dreams of throwing.

Spidey has fought peeps like juggs or hulk, and for the most part the story is filled with PIS or some CIS, where he is able to confine juggs in cement or calm down the hulk.

All that aside, Namor should be able to shrug off what spidey hits him with

Never judge a character's knockout power by their mere strength. Strength, speed, lack of give, and the right place is what makes knockout power. That is why cap, batman, and mantis can ko high class beings.

In kickboxing, the majority of the first hits and kicks don't even faze the other. But those spots do get tender after a while. But also with the same punches and kicks that didn't faze could as easily knock the other out if landed in the right places.

With that being said, spidey's speed definitely adds to his 20-50ton (under stress) strength thus causing him to hit much harder than his strength allows. Plus when Spidey's feet are connected to the ground when he punches it takes away the natural give he would have if he wasn't connected. This alone doubles his punching power (because the momentum is given twice-once from the punch and once from the reflection or lack of give). So under intense stress, Spidey can easily punch in the class 100 range.

Add that with the constant barrage of attacks he will land. And maybe, just maybe he would find the right spot or tenderize the wrong spot enough for a knockout.

Spidey is a bad boy indeed.

On land, Namor still gives Thing trouble in h2h combat

Spidey stands no chance here

Originally posted by Sub_Mariner
Namor dodges lasers and people regularly.

Using evasive action in order not to get hit is not dodging. That is how bats, cap, etc always dodge lasers and bullets. Plus I doubt that Namor could dodge anyone of spiderman's speed and agility consistently.

Originally posted by Grimm22
On land, Namor still gives Thing trouble in h2h combat

Spidey stands no chance here
this is not a comic fight but a forum one. Totally big difference.
read the above posts before you make comments like that
refute them then get back with us.

Originally posted by h1a8
read the above posts before you make comments like that
refute them then get back with us.

I have no need to

I've been reading both Namor and Spidey for years.

Namor has nearly every advantage in this fight

Originally posted by Grimm22
I have no need to

I've been reading both Namor and Spidey for years.

Namor has nearly every advantage in this fight

Then you are unwise because the above posts shows your blindspot.

On land Namor wins 9/10.

Originally posted by thedude1948
On land Namor wins 9/10.

on land spidey 10/10
please read my previous posts and argue against them.

should be a good fight spidy knows he cant go toe to toe with ol fish face so he'll have to keep moving and try to wear namor out, he's beaten namor before using his strongest skill his resourcefulness if he plays it smart he can beat namor a good amount of time on land

Originally posted by h1a8
on land spidey 10/10
please read my previous posts and argue against them.
I stopped reading after "with added speed to create class 50 or stronger hits".

Originally posted by thedude1948
I stopped reading after "with added speed to create class 50 or stronger hits".

You read wrong.
I said his strength can go up to 50 tons under intense stres.
I said his speed adds to his attacking power. I didn't say how much though. I said his lack of give (feet attached to the ground) doubles his punching power. To understand this read a physics book on momentum or get back with me and I'll explain it in detail.

Thus under intense stress (strength elevates near class 50 or more) with his speed and lack of give can make him hit with class 100 power.

But this all doesn't matter since all spidey has to do is find the right spot like bats or mantis do. Or just wear the same old spots out.

Originally posted by h1a8
Using evasive action in order not to get hit is not dodging. That is how bats, cap, etc always dodge lasers and bullets. Plus I doubt that Namor could dodge anyone of spiderman's speed and agility consistently.
He doesn't need to.

Originally posted by Accel
He doesn't need to.

why not?

Because.

Originally posted by h1a8
I said his lack of give (feet attached to the ground) doubles his punching power. To understand this read a physics book on momentum or get back with me and I'll explain it in detail.


i'll bite

please explain in detail how this would work

Originally posted by Grimm22
I have no need to

I've been reading both Namor and Spidey for years.

Namor has nearly every advantage in this fight

Yeah, almost as many advantages as he has over Thing.

Originally posted by h1a8
with his speed and lack of give can make him hit with class 100 power.

...........................

Originally posted by thedude1948
...........................

Originally posted by inamilist
i'll bite

please explain in detail how this would work

Okay
Imagine a rubber bullet that is fired at a tree stump.
After impact, the rubber bullet would bounce off with nearly the same momentum as it struck the stump with. Also with the same force by newtons 3rd law. Now say some unmovable object followed right behind the bullet while it traveled (like juggernaut's finger slightly touching the bullet from behind as it traveled-speedy juggs) So the bullet compresses to bounce off the tree with nearly the same force only to go into Juggs finger (which has no give) and thus compresses on Juggs finger to go back into the tree with almost the same momemtum at first strike. This is nearly double the force. Juggs finger plays the role of the force mirror.

So a strike from spiderman with his feet connected to an unmovable ground would cause his punch to be almost double in momemtum and force as was intially thrown.

Do you get it?

Originally posted by h1a8
Okay
Imagine a rubber bullet that is fired at a tree stump.
After impact, the rubber bullet would bounce off with nearly the same momentum as it struck the stump with. Also with the same force by newtons 3rd law. Now say some unmovable object followed right behind the bullet while it traveled (like juggernaut's finger slightly touching the bullet from behind as it traveled-speedy juggs) So the bullet compresses to bounce off the tree with nearly the same force only to go into Juggs finger (which has no give) and thus compresses on Juggs finger to go back into the tree with almost the same momemtum at first strike. This is nearly double the force. Juggs finger plays the role of the force mirror.

So a strike from spiderman with his feet connected to an unmovable ground would cause his punch to be almost double in momemtum and force as was intially thrown.

Do you get it?

...
No

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
...
No

Have you ever learned about collisions?
Momemtum transfers from one object to the other after a collision.
If one object in the collision is unmovable then it becomes a momemtum mirror in which it transfers the momemtum back again into the other object.

Originally posted by h1a8
Okay
Imagine a rubber bullet that is fired at a tree stump.
After impact, the rubber bullet would bounce off with nearly the same momentum as it struck the stump with. Also with the same force by newtons 3rd law. Now say some unmovable object followed right behind the bullet while it traveled (like juggernaut's finger slightly touching the bullet from behind as it traveled-speedy juggs) So the bullet compresses to bounce off the tree with nearly the same force only to go into Juggs finger (which has no give) and thus compresses on Juggs finger to go back into the tree with almost the same momemtum at first strike. This is nearly double the force. Juggs finger plays the role of the force mirror.

So a strike from spiderman with his feet connected to an unmovable ground would cause his punch to be almost double in momemtum and force as was intially thrown.

Do you get it? that's a nice idea but not really valid for that to come close to working is if spidy was rooted to a wall punching straight over head and namor moving straight into it at a steady pace

Originally posted by h1a8
Have you ever learned about collisions?
Momemtum transfers from one object to the other after a collision.
If one object in the collision is unmovable then it becomes a momemtum mirror in which it transfers the momemtum back again into the other object. not really true it applys to rubber fairly well because rubber has a way of creating more kinetic energy but for the most part when an object like a fist hits an unmoveable object the kinetic energy from the fist is transfered to the object and the fist comes to a dead stop

Originally posted by h1a8
Okay
Imagine a rubber bullet that is fired at a tree stump.
After impact, the rubber bullet would bounce off with nearly the same momentum as it struck the stump with. Also with the same force by newtons 3rd law. Now say some unmovable object followed right behind the bullet while it traveled (like juggernaut's finger slightly touching the bullet from behind as it traveled-speedy juggs) So the bullet compresses to bounce off the tree with nearly the same force only to go into Juggs finger (which has no give) and thus compresses on Juggs finger to go back into the tree with almost the same momemtum at first strike. This is nearly double the force. Juggs finger plays the role of the force mirror.

So a strike from spiderman with his feet connected to an unmovable ground would cause his punch to be almost double in momemtum and force as was intially thrown.

Do you get it?


ya, that works for me

to be honest, I had really never thought about collisions that much. Nor do I think they play that much of a role here.

even if spidey can manage a class 100 shot, Namor has taken those many times from fighting other brusiers like the thing or hulk, who would also benefit from these collision boosts to their impact strength, making them much stronger than what spiderman is throwing.

Namor would also benefit from this, making his punches absurdly strong compared to spiderman.

cool though, thanks for posting that

Originally posted by lando005
not really true it applys to rubber fairly well because rubber has a way of creating more kinetic energy but for the most part when an object like a fist hits an unmoveable object the kinetic energy from the fist is transfered to the object and the fist comes to a dead stop also unlike a rubber ball spidy also has to put his fist in motion pulling back his arms and punching again this also eats up some of the kinetic energy built up in the attack, true if he uses momentum from his strike when pulling the fist back he can save on energy but he'd end up using it anyway when he goes to strike again, but nice theory though it's kinda similar effect to flash's vibrations

What the hell guys?

Originally posted by Validus
What the hell guys? sorry

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Nah. Namor wins regardless. Spidey would put up a helluva fight, but would have a hard time dodging enough to pull out a win.

Originally posted by Grimm22
On land, Namor still gives Thing trouble in h2h combat

Spidey stands no chance here I thought Namor beat him on land.
Namor goes both ways... 10/10.

Originally posted by bigbran

Namor goes both ways... namor's bi?

Namor wins on land as well as on sea.

That theory of yours is nice h1a8, great to see some innovative thinking, but you are forgetting several crucial points.

First of all, you forget Namor's own speed. His speed feats are equal, in multiple cases, better to Spider-Man's. Spider-Man has the edge on dodging because of Spider-Sense, but if we go on pure speed feats, Namor has slight edge.

Now, whereas Spider-Man can dodge Namor for a long time because of his Spider-Sense, it will not help him on offensive. Namor is perfectly capable of dodging Spider-Man, doing other defensive stuff such as catching his fist, blocking his attacks with his wrist guards (like he has done to multiple fast attacks) or simply taking them for a while and waiting for the right moment to attack him.

Then there is Namor's own momentum, which already puts his amazing strength even to stronger point then it already is. Because of Namor's great hand speed that is easily equal to Spider-Man's, his added speed creates punching force that is thousands, probably hundreds of thousands times stronger then Spider-Man.

Namor has knocked out Hulk with pure strength, moved hundreds of thousands of tons with few punches, caused earthquakes that span islands, toppled the likes of Iron Man, Beta Ray Bill and Thor among other things. Spidey can take one punch, but it will leave him weakened. And slower. Every time Namor would land even one punch, he would have greater chance of landing one next time.

Then there is the flight advantage...Namor can fly around Spidey with multiple mach speeds and make him lose his concetration with that alone, punching him from every side.

And whereas Spidey is intelligent, Namor is much more experienced then he is when it comes to battle.

And honestly...Class 50 punches would take a long time to wear Namor out. Spidey would probably hurt himself more on the long run then he does to Namor.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Namor wins on land as well as on sea.

That theory of yours is nice h1a8, great to see some innovative thinking, but you are forgetting several crucial points.

First of all, you forget Namor's own speed. His speed feats are equal, in multiple cases, better to Spider-Man's. Spider-Man has the edge on dodging because of Spider-Sense, but if we go on pure speed feats, Namor has slight edge.

Now, whereas Spider-Man can dodge Namor for a long time because of his Spider-Sense, it will not help him on offensive. Namor is perfectly capable of dodging Spider-Man, doing other defensive stuff such as catching his fist, blocking his attacks with his wrist guards (like he has done to multiple fast attacks) or simply taking them for a while and waiting for the right moment to attack him.

Then there is Namor's own momentum, which already puts his amazing strength even to stronger point then it already is. Because of Namor's great hand speed that is easily equal to Spider-Man's, his added speed creates punching force that is thousands, probably hundreds of thousands times stronger then Spider-Man.

Namor has knocked out Hulk with pure strength, moved hundreds of thousands of tons with few punches, caused earthquakes that span islands, toppled the likes of Iron Man, Beta Ray Bill and Thor among other things. Spidey can take one punch, but it will leave him weakened. And slower. Every time Namor would land even one punch, he would have greater chance of landing one next time.

Then there is the flight advantage...Namor can fly around Spidey with multiple mach speeds and make him lose his concetration with that alone, punching him from every side.

And whereas Spidey is intelligent, Namor is much more experienced then he is when it comes to battle.

And honestly...Class 50 punches would take a long time to wear Namor out. Spidey would probably hurt himself more on the long run then he does to Namor.

flying speed is different than fighting speed. I doubt seriously that namor is fast as (or faster than spidey) or more agile or have the sheer reflexes that spidey has (Even though I agree he has some superhuman speed, reflexes, and agility).

You must show proof of that his fighting and reacting speed is comparable to spidey's.

Second, durability doesn't equal hardness of body. But toughness of body. For example, Hulk's flesh is extremely pliable but tough as hell. And spidey had no problems with his hands or feet attacking him.
Spidey will not hurt his hand hitting namor consistently.

But it only takes one hit in the right spot for namor to go down. Spidey has all day to find one. That's if namor isn't chicken and flys around all day to stalemate the fight.
Capt America with Mantis knowledge of pressure points can ko namor in one hit with his much smaller than spidey's strength.

Namor's punching power is not too much greater than spidey's (Even though this doesn't matter in this fight). If spidey was only 5 times stronger then he would equal namor in strength (in water) and still be faster. Thus at most namor's punching power is about 5 times that of spidey. Get that hundreds of thousands crap outer here. I can barely even lift .1 of a ton over my head yet I can punch with about 1600lbs. per square inch (I studied kung-fu for several years). This is a total of more than 4 tons for my entire fist (even though I only strike bags with my entire fist). So namor punching tons of stuff doesn't suprise me.

With the best of both their abilities. I see spidey either wearing him out with attacks or luckily finding a good spot on him. While dodging him, outmaneuriving him, webbing him (to distract), and doing plently of Maximum Spiders to him. While namor is swinging in the wind and desperately trying to grap him but is not fast enough to overcome spidey's sheer speed, reflexes, and most importantly his spider-sense.

...please read the Namor Respect Thread before DC tears out his hair in frustration...

Originally posted by ShoopDaWhoop
...please read the Namor Respect Thread before DC tears out his hair in frustration...

I've read several pages (not all). I didn't see anything that shows that my statements were wrong.

Originally posted by h1a8
With the best of both their abilities. I see spidey either wearing him out with attacks or luckily finding a good spot on him. While dodging him, outmaneuriving him, webbing him (to distract), and doing plently of Maximum Spiders to him. While namor is swinging in the wind and desperately trying to grap him but is not fast enough to overcome spidey's sheer speed, reflexes, and most importantly his spider-sense.

Maximum Spiders? Are you referencing the videogames that Spidey in which Spidey is a character?

...

You do know he can't just "Maximum Spider" in the comics, right?

Originally posted by h1a8
flying speed is different than fighting speed. I doubt seriously that namor is fast as (or faster than spidey) or more agile or have the sheer reflexes that spidey has (Even though I agree he has some superhuman speed, reflexes, and agility).

...get ready to be proven wrong, then.

Here, Namor dodges attack of sound waves. Invisible to boot. Speed of the attack, as it is sound, is 760 MPH. Roughly the speed of normal bullet, but bigger and invisible. Remember, Namor does not have any kind of sensing ability, yet I'm going to show feats where he matches or exceeds most of Spidey's higher end feats.
http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/3664/namorfeat31lb.gif

On here, Namor catches two missiles with amazing ease. Missiles of that model go roughly with Mach 2.5 speed.
http://img343.imageshack.us/img343/3176/namorefeat513dy.gif

Namor, surprised, dodges an bullet from point blank range.
http://img495.imageshack.us/img495/152/namorspeedfeat318vl.gif

Here, Namor is stated to move with the speed of thought.
http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/5035/namorspeedfeat574pj.gif

Couple of shots of Namor dodging different laser beams and stuff.
http://img490.imageshack.us/img490/3396/namorspeedfeat476fb.gif
http://img487.imageshack.us/img487/9686/namorspeedfeat361ma.gif
http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/8356/namorspeedfeat326rf.gif
http://img438.imageshack.us/my.php?image=warnamor48hw.gif
http://img438.imageshack.us/my.php?image=warnamor55gs.gif

Then there are couple of high end feats that I yet have seen Spider-Man match or exceed.

Namor shows off his sculpting skills and hand speed by giving a abandoned prison a new look in half a night.
http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/6167/namorspeedfeat428zm.gif
http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/9169/namorspeedfeat439yt.gif

Jumps and reaches meteors (Meteors move with speeds of Mach 32-Mach 221.
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=11/30614044285.jpg&s=x11
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=11/30614061841.jpg&s=x11
http://img474.imageshack.us/my.php?image=namorfeat816ym.gif

Moves his hands with high speeds.
http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/1905/namorspeedfeat339wr.gif

Then there are his countless swimming speed feats, who, because of his twists and turns, require hand and leg speed on Mach scale.
Originally posted by h1a8
You must show proof of that his fighting and reacting speed is comparable to spidey's.

Showed above. I can show some direct fight feats too if you wish.

Just because he doesn't jump around as much, doesn't mean that he doesn't have agility and speed.
http://img313.imageshack.us/img313/2339/namorfeat1243cq.gif

Originally posted by h1a8
Second, durability doesn't equal hardness of body. But toughness of body. For example, Hulk's flesh is extremely pliable but tough as hell. And spidey had no problems with his hands or feet attacking him. Spidey will not hurt his hand hitting namor consistently.

Actually, most of the times he does fight Hulk he hurts his hands.

Originally posted by h1a8
But it only takes one hit in the right spot for namor to go down. Spidey has all day to find one. That's if namor isn't chicken and flys around all day to stalemate the fight.

He actually has only few dozen seconds to find one before Namor connects a hit.

Originally posted by h1a8
Capt America with Mantis knowledge of pressure points can ko namor in one hit with his much smaller than spidey's strength.

And so he can do the same to Thor and the likes. Spider-Man, however doesn't know any kinds of pressure points, especially in Namor's body.

Originally posted by h1a8
Namor's punching power is not too much greater than spidey's (Even though this doesn't matter in this fight). If spidey was only 5 times stronger then he would equal namor in strength (in water) and still be faster. Thus at most namor's punching power is about 5 times that of spidey. Get that hundreds of thousands crap outer here. I can barely even lift .1 of a ton over my head yet I can punch with about 1600lbs. per square inch (I studied kung-fu for several years). This is a total of more than 4 tons for my entire fist (even though I only strike bags with my entire fist). So namor punching tons of stuff doesn't suprise me.

I'm sorry...but "Namor's punching power is not too much greater than spidey's" is probably one of the most retarded things I have ever heard.
http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/2563/incrediblehulk118187ji.jpg
http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/3936/incrediblehulk118195ly.jpg
http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/9269/incrediblehulk118200el.jpg
http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/4384/incrediblehulk118211kg.jpg

Seriously, mate.

Originally posted by h1a8
With the best of both their abilities. I see spidey either wearing him out with attacks or luckily finding a good spot on him. While dodging him, outmaneuriving him, webbing him (to distract), and doing plently of Maximum Spiders to him. While namor is swinging in the wind and desperately trying to grap him but is not fast enough to overcome spidey's sheer speed, reflexes, and most importantly his spider-sense.

With the best of their abilities, Namor will hit Spidey in relatively short time. One hit from Namor might already be fatal, half a dozen will probably end the fight. The reason why Spidey usually works so well against bricks is his unmatchable speed.

Namor isn't Thing, Hulk, or Hercules. He's fast.

Spider-Man's best chance is to keep Namor out of the water long enough for Namor to start weakening. His best bet for doing that is to dodge and wisecrack, dodge and wisecrack (landing blows where possible), over and over til Namor gets superpissed and careless (ie, like not returning to the sea to recharge).

With this scenario, and also considering what a clever make-good-use-of-your-surroundings fighter Spidey is, I could see Spider-Man winning 4/10.

Originally posted by hulk10
Their both a ton of muscle ,but if on land spidey would win, if in sea namor would kick butt. Namor would pick Spidey apart every single time...

Namor 10/10

submariner

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
...get ready to be proven wrong, then.

Here, Namor dodges attack of sound waves. Invisible to boot. Speed of the attack, as it is sound, is 760 MPH. Roughly the speed of normal bullet, but bigger and invisible. Remember, Namor does not have any kind of sensing ability, yet I'm going to show feats where he matches or exceeds most of Spidey's higher end feats.
http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/3664/namorfeat31lb.gif

On here, Namor catches two missiles with amazing ease. Missiles of that model go roughly with Mach 2.5 speed.
http://img343.imageshack.us/img343/3176/namorefeat513dy.gif

Namor, surprised, dodges an bullet from point blank range.
http://img495.imageshack.us/img495/152/namorspeedfeat318vl.gif

Here, Namor is stated to move with the speed of thought.
http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/5035/namorspeedfeat574pj.gif

Couple of shots of Namor dodging different laser beams and stuff.
http://img490.imageshack.us/img490/3396/namorspeedfeat476fb.gif
http://img487.imageshack.us/img487/9686/namorspeedfeat361ma.gif
http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/8356/namorspeedfeat326rf.gif
http://img438.imageshack.us/my.php?image=warnamor48hw.gif
http://img438.imageshack.us/my.php?image=warnamor55gs.gif

Then there are couple of high end feats that I yet have seen Spider-Man match or exceed.

Namor shows off his sculpting skills and hand speed by giving a abandoned prison a new look in half a night.
http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/6167/namorspeedfeat428zm.gif
http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/9169/namorspeedfeat439yt.gif

Jumps and reaches meteors (Meteors move with speeds of Mach 32-Mach 221.
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=11/30614044285.jpg&s=x11
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=11/30614061841.jpg&s=x11
http://img474.imageshack.us/my.php?image=namorfeat816ym.gif

Moves his hands with high speeds.
http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/1905/namorspeedfeat339wr.gif

Then there are his countless swimming speed feats, who, because of his twists and turns, require hand and leg speed on Mach scale.


Showed above. I can show some direct fight feats too if you wish.

Just because he doesn't jump around as much, doesn't mean that he doesn't have agility and speed.
http://img313.imageshack.us/img313/2339/namorfeat1243cq.gif



Actually, most of the times he does fight Hulk he hurts his hands.



He actually has only few dozen seconds to find one before Namor connects a hit.



And so he can do the same to Thor and the likes. Spider-Man, however doesn't know any kinds of pressure points, especially in Namor's body.



I'm sorry...but "Namor's punching power is not too much greater than spidey's" is probably one of the most retarded things I have ever heard.
http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/2563/incrediblehulk118187ji.jpg
http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/3936/incrediblehulk118195ly.jpg
http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/9269/incrediblehulk118200el.jpg
http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/4384/incrediblehulk118211kg.jpg

Seriously, mate.



With the best of their abilities, Namor will hit Spidey in relatively short time. One hit from Namor might already be fatal, half a dozen will probably end the fight. The reason why Spidey usually works so well against bricks is his unmatchable speed.

Namor isn't Thing, Hulk, or Hercules. He's fast.

Quoted for truth. Cosigned. Damn right.

Et cetera.

Namor rips him in half.

Spiderman is stronger, faster and more agile than Daredevil, yet DD manages to hang in there with Spidey when they tussle. Why? Because with his "radar sense," he can anticipate opponents' moves.

(Personally, that borders on PIS for me, but anyway...)

Similarly: Namor is stronger and faster than Spiderman, yet Spiderman ought to be able to make a good showing because of his precog "spider sense." Couple that with one more thing Namor really doesn't manifest in his fighting style: finesse. Not that he isn't skilled, but he is closer to being a brick than Spidey is. Spiderman's warning sense and agility can make him a very tough nut to hit, even if the foe is physically faster.

I still say, in a street fight, with a drying Namor, Spiderman has a 30-40% chance. Perhaps it would be better to say, Namor is not immune to defeat by the bug.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
...get ready to be proven wrong, then.

Here, Namor dodges attack of sound waves. Invisible to boot. Speed of the attack, as it is sound, is 760 MPH. Roughly the speed of normal bullet, but bigger and invisible. Remember, Namor does not have any kind of sensing ability, yet I'm going to show feats where he matches or exceeds most of Spidey's higher end feats.
http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/3664/namorfeat31lb.gif

On here, Namor catches two missiles with amazing ease. Missiles of that model go roughly with Mach 2.5 speed.
http://img343.imageshack.us/img343/3176/namorefeat513dy.gif

Namor, surprised, dodges an bullet from point blank range.
http://img495.imageshack.us/img495/152/namorspeedfeat318vl.gif

Here, Namor is stated to move with the speed of thought.
http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/5035/namorspeedfeat574pj.gif

Couple of shots of Namor dodging different laser beams and stuff.
http://img490.imageshack.us/img490/3396/namorspeedfeat476fb.gif
http://img487.imageshack.us/img487/9686/namorspeedfeat361ma.gif
http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/8356/namorspeedfeat326rf.gif
http://img438.imageshack.us/my.php?image=warnamor48hw.gif
http://img438.imageshack.us/my.php?image=warnamor55gs.gif

Then there are couple of high end feats that I yet have seen Spider-Man match or exceed.

Namor shows off his sculpting skills and hand speed by giving a abandoned prison a new look in half a night.
http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/6167/namorspeedfeat428zm.gif
http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/9169/namorspeedfeat439yt.gif

Jumps and reaches meteors (Meteors move with speeds of Mach 32-Mach 221.
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=11/30614044285.jpg&s=x11
http://putfile.com/pic.php?pic=11/30614061841.jpg&s=x11
http://img474.imageshack.us/my.php?image=namorfeat816ym.gif

Moves his hands with high speeds.
http://img488.imageshack.us/img488/1905/namorspeedfeat339wr.gif

Then there are his countless swimming speed feats, who, because of his twists and turns, require hand and leg speed on Mach scale.


Showed above. I can show some direct fight feats too if you wish.

Just because he doesn't jump around as much, doesn't mean that he doesn't have agility and speed.
http://img313.imageshack.us/img313/2339/namorfeat1243cq.gif



Actually, most of the times he does fight Hulk he hurts his hands.



He actually has only few dozen seconds to find one before Namor connects a hit.



And so he can do the same to Thor and the likes. Spider-Man, however doesn't know any kinds of pressure points, especially in Namor's body.



I'm sorry...but "Namor's punching power is not too much greater than spidey's" is probably one of the most retarded things I have ever heard.
http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/2563/incrediblehulk118187ji.jpg
http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/3936/incrediblehulk118195ly.jpg
http://img353.imageshack.us/img353/9269/incrediblehulk118200el.jpg
http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/4384/incrediblehulk118211kg.jpg

Seriously, mate.



With the best of their abilities, Namor will hit Spidey in relatively short time. One hit from Namor might already be fatal, half a dozen will probably end the fight. The reason why Spidey usually works so well against bricks is his unmatchable speed.

Namor isn't Thing, Hulk, or Hercules. He's fast.

OUCH.

Originally posted by h1a8
on land spidey 10/10
please read my previous posts and argue against them.

hystericalhystericalhysterical

Oh god oh god hysterical

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
...get ready to be proven wrong, then.



Nope not really.



How do you know how fast he must move his arms and legs in order to swim 60mph. He could be using his flying ability (or ankle wings) to aid in his swimming.


Spiderman to the best of his abilities won't hurt his hands hitting Hulk.
Or namor either (since he has tagged him good several times).



Why is that? With spidey's precog spider-sense I don't see namor laying a finger on him. Remember spidey can dodge light. Spider should be able to hit him any amount of times if namor stays in range.



I can lift roughly 200lbs (or .1 of a ton) over my head yet can punch with 4 tons of force with my entire fist. Multiply that by 1000 (which is namor's max strength) and I can probably hit Hulk the same way Namor did (since Hulk only weighs roughly .5 tons). Plus that is PIS since Thor, who with his severe might and who is a lot stronger than namor, hit Hulk with his hammer (more devasting force than mere his fists) and never ever one hit him like that to make him unconscience.



That scan either is PIS or he saw someone about to fire upon him and used evasive action.
How could he see sound before it gets there? Since light passes right through sound (0% bouncing back) and thus cannot be seen by anyone.


He seen the missle coming miles away and not from point blank range. But impressive nonetheless.


He saw the guy raise the gun to fire and evaded. He didn't dodge after the fire.


Speed of thought is 30m/s or 67.1mph



1. He raises his finger to fire and then namor evades before the fire (prove me wrong).
2. Using evasive action again because of the threat.
3. No dodging here. Just using his body as a shield. Impressive though.
4. Again no dodging there. Looks like WM misses and Namor is suprised.
5. And again no dodging. Just missing (which is PIS).


Yes he has some superhuman speed. But using it there for a moment tired him out.
Spiderman can do the same, but with the added moving around and not getting tired so fast.


The first 2 scans aren't working. The last scan shows that the meteors aren't moving mach anything (seem to be moving less than speed of sound). Writers in the past knew almost no science. That is why they showed many feats that exceeds a character's abilities. Most don't even know how much different objects weigh or the actual speed of certain things. They just know that they are very heavy or very fast and that they want to sell comics. That is why it is important for marvel themselves to think so along with being statistically consistent in a character's career.


I never said he wasn't fast. But not as fast as spidey.
In that scan there is no other motion, relative to him, to guage actually how fast he is moving his hands. Even though that doesn't matter since Spidey has dodged faster stuff (like light) with his spider sense.


Decent agility. Looks like a regular human gymnast. Maybe cap's level of agility tops.
No where near spidey's though (in which can make that scan look like child's play and can balance himself in any position-even on his pinky).

Good try though. My knowledge of Namor has definitely increased. And I'm starting to like him very much.

Thanks!

1. Spiderman does not dodge light... even captain america tagged spiderman, and had him buckling over from just 3 hits. Notice that in the civil war comic it was spiderman thinking it, not saying it like he usually does to throw his enemies off. He was actually very hurt.

2. Namor is the kind of enemy who when he's pissed, takes on the entire fantastic four.

venom screwed spiderman over. Even a recent villain "killed" peter parker. You act like spiderman's never been laid out before. And namors gonna be the one who can do it. He isn't going to be jobbing like firelord. The avenging son is gonna put your pet arachnid in a hole in the ground 7 feet deep. Understand? 7... feet... deep...

Originally posted by rotiart
1. Spiderman does not dodge light... even captain america tagged spiderman, and had him buckling over from just 3 hits. Notice that in the civil war comic it was spiderman thinking it, not saying it like he usually does to throw his enemies off. He was actually very hurt.

2. Namor is the kind of enemy who when he's pissed, takes on the entire fantastic four.

venom screwed spiderman over. Even a recent villain "killed" peter parker. You act like spiderman's never been laid out before. And namors gonna be the one who can do it. He isn't going to be jobbing like firelord. The avenging son is gonna put your pet arachnid in a hole in the ground 7 feet deep. Understand? 7... feet... deep...

Spiderman getting hit is not him using the best of his abilities (forum rules). Him dodging light is him using the best of his abilities (forum rules). Spiderman being hurt by cap is him not using the best of his abilities (forum rules). Spiderman taking hits from Hulk is him using the best of his abilities (forum rules).Spidey's spider sense don't work on Venom.

bull. forum rules eh?

No SvFL

Spiderman vs. Firelord, or SvFL, is a shorthand that refers to any time when a character performs a feat that their powers and skills should be blatantly insufficient for, and is not repeated or is rarely repeated again relative to the character's overall established career, as well as the character's opponents' established showings. In statistical terms, it is an outlier, something that is radically beyond the character's established capabilities. For example, Spiderman defeating a herald of Galactus is a case of the SvFL exemption; however, Batman being able to sneak up on Superman is not because he has done so frequently under different writers.
For standard debates, feats considered to fall under the SvFL exemption are not valid. Likewise, examples of writing which go against firmly set canon are also ignored. For example, in Larry Hama's run of Batman and Grell's run of Iron Man, both characters were out of character and did things very much against established canon; therefore those runs are disregarded.

you want to look for little loopholes, you better learn to interpret the damn rules right.

Originally posted by h1a8
Spiderman getting hit is not him using the best of his abilities (forum rules). Him dodging light is him using the best of his abilities (forum rules). Spiderman being hurt by cap is him not using the best of his abilities (forum rules). Spiderman taking hits from Hulk is him using the best of his abilities (forum rules).Spidey's spider sense don't work on Venom.
Explain to me how Thor using a shield is SMvFL, but Spider-Man dodging light is using him to the best of his abilities.

Originally posted by Accel
Explain to me how Thor using a shield is SMvFL, but Spider-Man dodging light is using him to the best of his abilities.

Because he has done so, many times and through his career.
And Because is spider sense is precog. That means he knows an attack before it is launch and in which his spider sense guides him out of the way. Trust me, I know that Spidey is not fast enough to dodge most of things that he does. Hell, without his spider sense (which is his most important power) then namor wins 10/10 no questions asked.

But that spider sense being precog is a hell of a thing.
And its his only chance to survive this fight.

Originally posted by h1a8
Because he has done so, many times.
And Because is spider sense is precog. That means he knows an attack before it is launch and in which his spider sense guides him to get out of the way. Trust me, I know that Spidey is not fast enough to dodge most of things that he does. Hell, without his spider sense (which is his most important power) then namor wins 10/10 no questions asked.

But that spider sense being precog is a hell of a thing.

Show me spiderman dodging Light. Repeatedly. I'll acknowledge bullets... even some badly thrown lightning blasts... but spiderman still gets tagger by electro, dr. octopus, mysterio...sandman...

Originally posted by h1a8
Because he has done so, many times and through his career.
And Because is spider sense is precog. That means he knows an attack before it is launch and in which his spider sense guides him to get out of the way. Trust me, I know that Spidey is not fast enough to dodge most of things that he does. Hell, without his spider sense (which is his most important power) then namor wins 10/10 no questions asked.

But that spider sense being precog is a hell of a thing.

spiderman has not dodged "light" many times... thats 186,000 miles per second...

he's rated at a speed of 4 out of 7... on the old comic cards i used to have...

Originally posted by rotiart
Show me spiderman dodging Light. Repeatedly. I'll acknowledge bullets... even some badly thrown lightning blasts... but spiderman still gets tagger by electro, dr. octopus, mysterio...sandman...

If you go to Spidey's respeck page then you will see and hear several feats of this. Like every time he fights Chance. Chance's has homing computerized lasers in which he always try to hit Spidey with. But spidey always manage to dodge them. Also there are times when enemies are shooting plain energy blasts (either from guns or from powers), such as from Dr. Doom and certain high security fortresses, at spidey. Spidey has managed to dodge these as well (due to his precog spider sense).

It was even said that (by Marvel) the greater the threat then the stronger the spidey sense. So my reasoning tells me that the greater the threat (in which Spidey can die in one hit) then the more time into the future his spider sense shifts into precog mode.

I like Spiderman but he's not beating Namor

Originally posted by h1a8
If you go to Spidey's respeck page then you will see and hear several feats of this. Like every time he fights Chance. Chance's has homing computerized lasers in which he always try to hit Spidey with. But spidey always manage to dodge them. Also there are times when enemies are shooting plain energy blasts (either from guns or from powers), such as from Dr. Doom and certain high security fortresses, at spidey. Spidey has managed to dodge these as well (due to his precog spider sense).

It was even said that (by Marvel) the greater the threat then the stronger the spidey sense. So my reasoning tells me that the greater the threat (in which Spidey can die in one hit) then the more time into the future his spider sense shifts into precog mode.

so you're saying that all the time's he gets nailed to the wall by dr octopus... its cause doc isn't enough of a threat?

and energy blasts do not move at light speed... lightning doesn't even move at light speed...

Btw... even captain america has dodged lazer beams, energy blasts, bullets... are you saying that Captain america is faster then light now?

even quicksilver can get tagged.. and spiderman is not quicksilver...

Originally posted by rotiart
so you're saying that all the time's he gets nailed to the wall by dr octopus... its cause doc isn't enough of a threat?

and energy blasts do not move at light speed... lightning doesn't even move at light speed...

Btw... even captain america has dodged lazer beams, energy blasts, bullets... are you saying that Captain america is faster then light now?

even quicksilver can get tagged.. and spiderman is not quicksilver...

All energy beams are light speed. This is because they are of electromagnetic radiation. The reason you see them in cartoons moving slowly (like in Star Wars) is to show the viewer the effects of them.

Cap has never dodge lasers or bullets. He simply uses evasive action in order not to be hit. This is not dodging. And quicksilver doesn't have spidersense. A big difference.

And spidey getting hit by anyone (including Doc Ock) is writers not writing him to the best of his abilities. Spiderman's spidersense is either precog or it isn't. If it is, then there is no way for him to get hit when he does. And if it isn't, then Marvel wouldn't have said so in countless bios and handbooks and wouldn't have shown it on panel.

Originally posted by h1a8
All energy beams are light speed. This is because they are of electromagnetic radiation. The reason you see them in cartoons moving slowly (like in Star Wars) is to show the viewer the effects of them.

Cap has never dodge lasers or bullets. He simply uses evasive action in order not to be hit. This is not dodging. And quicksilver doesn't have spidersense. A big difference.

And spidey getting hit by anyone (including Doc Ock) is writers not writing him to the best of his abilities. Spiderman's spidersense is either precog or it isn't. If it is, then there is no way for him to get hit when he does. And if it isn't, then Marvel wouldn't have said so in countless bios and handbooks and wouldn't have shown it on panel.




wow... so shows a spiderman level feat... its pis...
if spiderman gets tagged.. its pis...

So when spiderman died... thats pis too..
when venom and carnage are ripping parker apart...

you know what... you are way too much of a fanboy to be worth my aggravation

Originally posted by h1a8
.
Speed of thought is 30m/s or 67.1mph

that's not the speed of thought, that's the speed of nerve impulses. thought is pretty unquantifiable.

Originally posted by rotiart


wow... so shows a spiderman level feat... its pis...
if spiderman gets tagged.. its pis...

So when spiderman died... thats pis too..
when venom and carnage are ripping parker apart...

you know what... you are way too much of a fanboy to be worth my aggravation

Spidey's sense don't work on venom or carnage.
His spidersense is either precog or it isn't. And it is common sense that it is.
If you were fast and knew an attack before it came and had a guidance system in your brain to know how to get out of the way then would you get hit?

Now you see why it is PIS when he gets hit? Simply writers not writing him to the best of his abilities.

Originally posted by rotiart
1. Spiderman does not dodge light... even captain america tagged spiderman, and had him buckling over from just 3 hits. Notice that in the civil war comic it was spiderman thinking it, not saying it like he usually does to throw his enemies off. He was actually very hurt.

2. Namor is the kind of enemy who when he's pissed, takes on the entire fantastic four.

venom screwed spiderman over. Even a recent villain "killed" peter parker. You act like spiderman's never been laid out before. And namors gonna be the one who can do it. He isn't going to be jobbing like firelord. The avenging son is gonna put your pet arachnid in a hole in the ground 7 feet deep. Understand? 7... feet... deep...

Buckling?

Originally posted by manorastroman
that's not the speed of thought, that's the speed of nerve impulses. thought is pretty unquantifiable.

Speed of thought is quantified by the speed of nerve impulse. This is a scientific fact. Unless you are talking about something spiritual (like God and Jesus) then you may have a point. Look it up it is easy to find.

just because i'm not talking about nerve impulses doesn't mean i'm talking about god. talk about a logic leap. i'm talking about the abstract process, not the time it takes to get from the abstract process to the actual action. and i clearly don't need to look it up, seeing as i specified nerve impulses.

tool.

1) Spiderman can't dodge lazers, he probably shouldn't be able to dodge bullets

2) The spider sense is in the broadest terms PIS. If it wasn't one of Spider-Man's powers it would be ridiculous to think that someone of spider-man's ability could do half of what he does.

So, generally speaking, spiderman wont be hit by projectiles. However, time and time again, he is hit by things like punches or he is grabbed or whatever.

Obviously this doesn't make sense, but that is how it goes.

Dodging bullets or lazers should not be considered a feat for any character

Originally posted by h1a8
Speed of thought is quantified by the speed of nerve impulse. This is a scientific fact. Unless you are talking about something spiritual (like God and Jesus) then you may have a point. Look it up it is easy to find.

Thinking and thoughts are VERY difficult concepts to pin down

When you think about something, you are activating several differant levels of your brain: memory, sensory coding, differant areas that process meaning and action, each of which contains billions of neurons, each with its own specific function.

By themselves, the neurons are pretty much meaningless, but when activated in certain patterns, they represent everything we know.

Any "thought" a person has then, MUST be based upon the firing of billions of neurons in specific patterns to convey the depth of meaning that we need.

Basic perceptual operations are increadably fast, but still, input must travel through many stages before it is even analyzed for meaning. This occurs even before we become consious of something, theoretically, before we even think about it.

When we do think of something, the activation of all the necessary brain areas will take much longer than the activation of a single neuron, and in many cases a single thought can continue to activate new neural processes associated with it (ie, still processing the thought, so still part of "the speed of that thought".

The fact that you say "look it up its easy to find" is really disturbing though. I was talking with my Cognitive Psychology prof today about stuff related specifically to this (actually, the lecture was on conceptualizations of knowledge). Long story short, "thoughts" are STILL mysterious to the scientific community. When it comes to prefrontal activation and that type of perception, it is largely unknown how that occurs, although we are aware of many of the processes involved.

Originally posted by thedude1948
I stopped reading after "with added speed to create class 50 or stronger hits". good one but really namor would beat spiderman bad very BAD!

Originally posted by h1a8
Nope not really.

Yeah. Really.

Originally posted by h1a8
How do you know how fast he must move his arms and legs in order to swim 60mph. He could be using his flying ability (or ankle wings) to aid in his swimming.

60 MPH?

Guess you are still clinging to handbooks right? I proved "60 MPH" swimming speed wrong year ago, mate.

Originally posted by h1a8
Spiderman to the best of his abilities won't hurt his hands hitting Hulk.
Or namor either (since he has tagged him good several times).


And Namor has tagged Spider-Man too. More times then Spidey has tagged Namor, in fact.

Originally posted by h1a8
Why is that? With spidey's precog spider-sense I don't see namor laying a finger on him. Remember spidey can dodge light. Spider should be able to hit him any amount of times if namor stays in range.


Spider-Man's dodging does not apply to his hitting speed. Namor can dodge Spider-Man as well.

Originally posted by h1a8
I can lift roughly 200lbs (or .1 of a ton) over my head yet can punch with 4 tons of force with my entire fist. Multiply that by 1000 (which is namor's max strength) and I can probably hit Hulk the same way Namor did (since Hulk only weighs roughly .5 tons). Plus that is PIS since Thor, who with his severe might and who is a lot stronger than namor, hit Hulk with his hammer (more devasting force than mere his fists) and never ever one hit him like that to make him unconscience.


Are you honestly saying that Namor's max strength is just 4000 tons?

...dude. Seriously.


Originally posted by h1a8
That scan either is PIS or he saw someone about to fire upon him and used evasive action.
How could he see sound before it gets there? Since light passes right through sound (0% bouncing back) and thus cannot be seen by anyone.

Because he is faster then sound. Plus he has superhuman senses and radar sense too.

Originally posted by h1a8
He seen the missle coming miles away and not from point blank range. But impressive nonetheless.

He's not miles away....

Originally posted by h1a8
He saw the guy raise the gun to fire and evaded. He didn't dodge after the fire.

Yes, he did. Notice that he dodges simultanously.

Originally posted by h1a8
Speed of thought is 30m/s or 67.1mph

Yeah, got me there...

Originally posted by h1a8
1. He raises his finger to fire and then namor evades before the fire (prove me wrong).

He dodged while that guy shot it. Prove me wrong. It all happens in the span of one panel.

Originally posted by h1a8
2. Using evasive action again because of the threat.

AKA...dodging...

Originally posted by h1a8
3. No dodging here. Just using his body as a shield. Impressive though.

"Twisting...turning...DODGING..." Read the captions too.

Originally posted by h1a8
4. Again no dodging there. Looks like WM misses and Namor is suprised.

Err...he dodges those goddamn bullets there...

Originally posted by h1a8
5. And again no dodging. Just missing (which is PIS).

Same as above. How could he miss if he is just standing right there.

Originally posted by h1a8
Yes he has some superhuman speed. But using it there for a moment tired him out.
Spiderman can do the same, but with the added moving around and not getting tired so fast.


Spider-Man can't match anything close to sculpting entire statue in a second.

Originally posted by h1a8
The first 2 scans aren't working. The last scan shows that the meteors aren't moving mach anything (seem to be moving less than speed of sound). Writers in the past knew almost no science. That is why they showed many feats that exceeds a character's abilities. Most don't even know how much different objects weigh or the actual speed of certain things. They just know that they are very heavy or very fast and that they want to sell comics. That is why it is important for marvel themselves to think so along with being statistically consistent in a character's career.


It is still canon and it can't be used. I'll get the other two scans as soon as I can find it.

And they are meteors, lowest speed ever recorded by meteors is Mach 32, thus they are moving with that speed. Art doesn't matter. Plus he was chasing a spaceship on the same time.


Originally posted by h1a8
I never said he wasn't fast. But not as fast as spidey.
In that scan there is no other motion, relative to him, to guage actually how fast he is moving his hands. Even though that doesn't matter since Spidey has dodged faster stuff (like light) with his spider sense.

Just look at the speed of how fast the things appear around the monster...

And Namor is as fast when it comes to pure moving speed. Spidey is faster when it comes to pure dodging...because of his Spider-Sense.

Originally posted by h1a8
Decent agility. Looks like a regular human gymnast. Maybe cap's level of agility tops.
No where near spidey's though (in which can make that scan look like child's play and can balance himself in any position-even on his pinky).

Who said it was near Spidey?

Originally posted by h1a8
Good try though. My knowledge of Namor has definitely increased. And I'm starting to like him very much.



Pfft. You are still claiming that his top speed is only 60 MPH and he is only five times as strong as Spidey.

Think again.
http://herochat.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=100333

Originally posted by h1a8
I can lift roughly 200lbs (or .1 of a ton) over my head yet can punch with 4 tons of force with my entire fist...
Um... no you can't, unless you can punch 3 times harder than Mike Tyson. I believe you meant 400kgs that is 800lbs.

Yeah, that reminds me a bit of JPlatinum. If someone can punch with 4 tons of force, doesn't that mean that they can flip an normal car around with a punch?

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Are you honestly saying that Namor's max strength is just 4000 tons?

...dude. Seriously.

...Just? DC, are you honestly implying that 4,000 tons of strength is not an ass-load?

I think that's actually a bit of an exaggeration, in my opinion.

Namor, on land or not, 9/10.

Originally posted by inamilist
Thinking and thoughts are VERY difficult concepts to pin down

When you think about something, you are activating several differant levels of your brain: memory, sensory coding, differant areas that process meaning and action, each of which contains billions of neurons, each with its own specific function.

By themselves, the neurons are pretty much meaningless, but when activated in certain patterns, they represent everything we know.

Any "thought" a person has then, MUST be based upon the firing of billions of neurons in specific patterns to convey the depth of meaning that we need.

Basic perceptual operations are increadably fast, but still, input must travel through many stages before it is even analyzed for meaning. This occurs even before we become consious of something, theoretically, before we even think about it.

When we do think of something, the activation of all the necessary brain areas will take much longer than the activation of a single neuron, and in many cases a single thought can continue to activate new neural processes associated with it (ie, still processing the thought, so still part of "the speed of that thought".

The fact that you say "look it up its easy to find" is really disturbing though. I was talking with my Cognitive Psychology prof today about stuff related specifically to this (actually, the lecture was on conceptualizations of knowledge). Long story short, "thoughts" are STILL mysterious to the scientific community. When it comes to prefrontal activation and that type of perception, it is largely unknown how that occurs, although we are aware of many of the processes involved.

You are specific talking about how the thinking process works.
I was talking about the speed in which impulses travel and move in our bodies. Which is more physics and chemistry based.
All the interactions in our bodies and brains are chemical.
That means each impulse whether it travels in the body or the brain will travel roughly 67mph. Thus it would take a nerve impulse (in the brain) only .005 of a second to cover 6 inches in the brain. This is fast indeed.
That is why brain activity seems pretty fast.
So if multiple neurons are firing at the same time and in which they are all sending impulses to other areas of the brain an average of 6 inches in distance
then the range of times for a single thought could be anywhere between .005sec to .04sec which is still pretty fast.
The people with some of the fastest reflexes in the world are professional baseball players. Yet it has been proven that they are blind to a 90-100mph fastball less than 6ft of travel. This is why it is impossible for them (or anyone) to actually keep their eye on the ball while hitting the baseball. Since a 100mph baseball travels 6ft in .04 sec
and a human is blind to it then the range .005sec to .04 sec for a single thought makes sense.

Originally posted by Sam Z
Um... no you can't, unless you can punch 3 times harder than Mike Tyson. I believe you meant 400kgs that is 800lbs.
Mike tyson hits with about 2000lbs. per square inch if not more.
It has been proven that an average heavy weight professional boxer hits with about 1900lbs per square inch. It is not hard to find this info. You can either watch TLC, search the internet, or watch Rocky IV to find out the fact. One of my best friends was an amatuer heavy weight boxer and I hit as hard as he does. (Our weights were similar, I have over a year of martial arts ability in which I can break multiple wood boards with punches and I have some boxing ability.)

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Yeah. Really.



Nope!





Spiderman has shown over 40tons strength multiple times.
But yet all (including you) except the fact that he is only class 20.
Why is this? Maybe its those stinking handbooks right.




Again, the biggest fallacy of them all. That is a comic fight. These are forum fights. A big difference. Writers many times don't write characters using the best of their abilities. If you were fast and can tell an attack before it comes and had a guidance system in your brain to help guide you out of the way then would you (or could you) every get hit?
Please answer this first.




IMO I would say no. Since spiderman will be at point blank range, moving around erratically and unpredictable with amazing speed and unmatched agility, and don't forget his webbing to slow namor down.





No! If you do the math 1000 times .1 ton is 100tons (not 4000tons). I said he should hit with 4000tons of force (hitting and lifting are not the same thing) because he is 1000 times stronger than me and I hit with 4tons of force with my entire fist.





Naw. He travels under 100mph max. (Use the above reasoning about spiderman lifting more than handbooks say he should).




Of course he is (if not then its still pretty far).




False. The moment he raises the gun to fire is the same moment namor moves out of the way. Just common sense reflexes.




The burden of proof is on you. Since you introduced the scan as evidence.

Sorry I didn't see dodging. Again, moving in evasion action is considered dodging. I can dodge bullets (if I'm lucky of course) by being evasive and I'm only a VulcanData .
I'm human though (at least I think so).




No he doesn't. There is no movement shown that he dodges. Only misses (which is PIS). Also, his face is in shock.




PIS




He sculpted the Hulk once. IMO it looked faster. And spidey combined his finger jabbing with very fast bouncing around.




Sure! The art shows that writers don't have much knowledge in science. Thus we can only go on their intentions. If I create a character to have a certain limit, but accidentally make them go over their limit because of my lack of scientific knowledge, then who can tell me my bio of the character is wrong. (Use the spiderman reasoning here too)






Yes it was fast. I never said he wasn't fast. Just not as fast as spidey.
Plus the scan doesn't show how long it takes to actually gauge it. You make it seem as if we are watching a cartoon or something.

Yes he is super human fast in moving. But I think that all here at this forum would agree that spidey moves faster.



Yes if you use the Spiderman reasoning above.

Originally posted by mighty adam
good one but really namor would beat spiderman bad very BAD!
Only in a comic.

I love Spider-Man. I know a lot about him and his abilities, and I aslo think he wins against a lot of opponents.

However, I know when he's beat. Namor is just too powerful for Spider-Man to take down without a plot device in his favor.

So, with that said, Namor wins 8/10. Spidey does have a chance.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Yeah, that reminds me a bit of JPlatinum. If someone can punch with 4 tons of force, doesn't that mean that they can flip an normal car around with a punch?

No because the car would absorb a huge amount of the impact. Because it is receiving the 4 tons too fast and in a small area. There are other reasons (I think) that deal with the concept of give and reversal of momemtum.

If it has been scientically established that a peak human can punch with a little over a ton per square inch tops. A human's fist is at least 5 square inches in area. Do the math.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
I love Spider-Man. I know a lot about him and his abilities, and I aslo think he wins against a lot of opponents.

However, I know when he's beat. Namor is just too powerful for Spider-Man to take down without a plot device in his favor.

So, with that said, Namor wins 8/10. Spidey does have a chance.


If Spiderman fought Namor in a comic multiple times in the near future and Spidey lost all the battles. Then I wouldn't be shocked or disappointed. Because I know it is a comic fight. What I disagree with is that he would lose in a forum fight. For him to do that means that he will get hit. But techniqually (I can't spell well), how could he get hit if he is fast and his spider sense warns him of an attack before the attack and guides him out of the way. To say he will get hit simply ignores his precog spidersense or implies that he doesn't have it.

Originally posted by h1a8
and I hit with 4tons of force with my entire fist.

Dude... no.... please....stop........

On land spidey owns. This is the guy who took down firelord. Petes resourcefulness is unmatched

Originally posted by h1a8
If Spiderman fought Namor in a comic multiple times in the near future and Spidey lost all the battles. Then I wouldn't be shocked or disappointed. Because I know it is a comic fight. What I disagree with is that he would lose in a forum fight. For him to do that means that he will get hit. But techniqually (I can't spell well), how could he get hit if he is fast and his spider sense warns him of an attack before the attack and guides him out of the way. To say he will get hit simply ignores his precog spidersense or implies that he doesn't have it.

actually what it means is that he cannot react physically fast enough even though his mind tells him to me... much like a deer caught in the headlights...

When daredevil fought spiderman, his radar sense told him where spiderman was coming from, but he even said spiderman was much faster then he was, and therefore he could not get away...

his radar sense gives him 360 degrees of sight... he sees you coming at all times..

Spiderman's "precog" otherwise known as spidersense warns him of impending danger... do you even know wtf thats based on? lemme give you a lesson young pup.

a spider has a web. When a fly lands in said web, the web moves, spider knows where the vibrations came from to let him know whats up.
I, being a larger then spider mortal, have caught many a spider, how you say? big jar, slammed over top of spider, never disturbing his web. even if you disturb the web, the spider can only react SO fast.

You make allusions to the fact that spiderman moves ftl. Which is complete and utter bs. you say the greater the threat, the better he'll react. Well fancy this, spiderman has shown that he can dance around powerful.. .but slow opponents, but that he can still get tagged by others.

You aren't even using his shown abilities, you're making statements about what he COULD do, not what he has done... btw all these arguements about the fact that he can sense the danger coming means jack when he still gets tagged. And if you wanna go against 40 years showing what his established abilities are....

Jesus. This is almost as bad as the people saying that LOGAN would beat Namor.

Namor laid out Logan in one punch.

Yay for the avenging son. Healing factor, healing smacktor!!!!!

Namor has hit Quicksilver, Speed Demon, and the Whizzer, but yet has a problem connecting with Spiderman? Give me a break (although I see this as I saw the Doc Samson thread, but got shot down there too).

Namor 10/10

Originally posted by tkitna
Namor has hit Quicksilver, Speed Demon, and the Whizzer, but yet has a problem connecting with Spiderman? Give me a break (although I see this as I saw the Doc Samson thread, but got shot down there too).

Namor 10/10

some some insane reason this guy thinks spiderman outmoves quicksilver... and that spiderman can react at the speed of light...

well if spiderman is moving at light speed.... namor moves ftl god dammit.

Originally posted by h1a8
Nope!

Yes!


Originally posted by h1a8
Spiderman has shown over 40tons strength multiple times.
But yet all (including you) except the fact that he is only class 20.
Why is this? Maybe its those stinking handbooks right.

Comics override handbooks as canon. Namor has done greater feats then written in handbooks before and after handbooks were published.

I'll take the word of his creator over some random handbook writer, sorry. And I don't say that Spider-Man can't lift over 40 tons, if you show me where, sure, I'll accept...

Originally posted by h1a8
Again, the biggest fallacy of them all. That is a comic fight. These are forum fights. A big difference. Writers many times don't write characters using the best of their abilities. If you were fast and can tell an attack before it comes and had a guidance system in your brain to help guide you out of the way then would you (or could you) every get hit?
Please answer this first.

Few attacks, yeah. But when you are attacked all the time, you will get hit sooner or later, especially if your attacker moves as fast as you do.

According to your reasoning, Spider-Man could dodge Flash...

Originally posted by h1a8
IMO I would say no. Since spiderman will be at point blank range, moving around erratically and unpredictable with amazing speed and unmatched agility, and don't forget his webbing to slow namor down.

Your opinion, is sadly wrong. Namor written to best of his ability dodges lasers and other things that are faster then Spider-Man, thus he can dodge Spider-Man too. And he even doesn't need to, Namor written best to his ability can take the best punch Iron Man can throw and not even budge.

Originally posted by h1a8
No! If you do the math 1000 times .1 ton is 100tons (not 4000tons). I said he should hit with 4000tons of force (hitting and lifting are not the same thing) because he is 1000 times stronger than me and I hit with 4tons of force with my entire fist.

He is way more then 1000 times stronger then you.

The force of his punches is measured on Richter scale, literally.

Originally posted by h1a8
Naw. He travels under 100mph max. (Use the above reasoning about spiderman lifting more than handbooks say he should).

Sadly, comics override handbooks as canon, especially on this forum.

Originally posted by h1a8
Of course he is (if not then its still pretty far).

Actually, he is only few feet away, want to see the whole page?

Originally posted by h1a8
False. The moment he raises the gun to fire is the same moment namor moves out of the way. Just common sense reflexes.

All happens at the span of one panel.

Originally posted by h1a8
The burden of proof is on you. Since you introduced the scan as evidence.

I already proved that he dodges at the same time, as he dodges it on same panel on the same time the guy shoots.

Originally posted by h1a8
Sorry I didn't see dodging. Again, moving in evasion action is considered dodging. I can dodge bullets (if I'm lucky of course) by being evasive and I'm only a VulcanData .
I'm human though (at least I think so).
I see dodging. He doesn'tget

Originally posted by h1a8
No he doesn't. There is no movement shown that he dodges. Only misses (which is PIS). Also, his face is in shock.

PIS

There is movement showing that he dodges, those two pages are from same comic...

Originally posted by h1a8
He sculpted the Hulk once. IMO it looked faster. And spidey combined his finger jabbing with very fast bouncing around.

He sculpted an Hulk statue, making hundreds of hand movements in a second? Where?

Originally posted by h1a8
Sure! The art shows that writers don't have much knowledge in science. Thus we can only go on their intentions. If I create a character to have a certain limit, but accidentally make them go over their limit because of my lack of scientific knowledge, then who can tell me my bio of the character is wrong. (Use the spiderman reasoning here too)

Comics >> Handbooks when it comes to canon material. This came up on Gladiator feat, where it said that he went inside the star but the artist was crappy and could not draw a star very well, so some retards started arguing that it was not star just because of bad art.

Originally posted by h1a8
Yes it was fast. I never said he wasn't fast. Just not as fast as spidey.
Plus the scan doesn't show how long it takes to actually gauge it. You make it seem as if we are watching a cartoon or something.

Unless stated otherwise, the span between panels is only few seconds at best. And seeing as they all appeared on the same time, trapping the monster...

Originally posted by h1a8
Yes he is super human fast in moving. But I think that all here at this forum would agree that spidey moves faster.

In dodging? Yes. Pure movement speed, still no.

Originally posted by h1a8
Yes if you use the Spiderman reasoning above.

Sadly, your reasoning is wrong. According to rules of this forum and common sense. Even before you came to this forum, it was already decided that handbooks have lot of mistakes, and comic book feats override them.

Originally posted by h1a8
If Spiderman fought Namor in a comic multiple times in the near future and Spidey lost all the battles. Then I wouldn't be shocked or disappointed. Because I know it is a comic fight. What I disagree with is that he would lose in a forum fight. For him to do that means that he will get hit. But techniqually (I can't spell well), how could he get hit if he is fast and his spider sense warns him of an attack before the attack and guides him out of the way. To say he will get hit simply ignores his precog spidersense or implies that he doesn't have it.

oh he has it all right. He even knows its coming... he just can't move fast enough.

His mental reaction time > his body's physical reaction time

omg my ~spideysense~ is tingling!
omg my ~spideysense~ tells me the attack is coming from above.

I jump to the side ftl, i should be safe.

Oops the attack was an atomic bomb. i still died. gosh darn you ~spideysense~

Originally posted by h1a8
Mike tyson hits with about 2000lbs. per square inch if not more.
It has been proven that an average heavy weight professional boxer hits with about 1900lbs per square inch. It is not hard to find this info. You can either watch TLC, search the internet, or watch Rocky IV to find out the fact. One of my best friends was an amatuer heavy weight boxer and I hit as hard as he does. (Our weights were similar, I have over a year of martial arts ability in which I can break multiple wood boards with punches and I have some boxing ability.)

Tyson hits with 3000lbs. per square. but it doesn't mean that in general hi can hit with 6 tons force. If that was the case he would've been able to send an elephant fly.

I had read in a weight-training book, years ago, that the average man can military press 100 pounds for a 1 rep max. My own many years of weight-lifting experience (ie, training friends and such) tends to more/less bare this out.

That being so: it takes about 20 men to MP 1 ton.

If Spiderman can press 10 tons, that makes him about 200x stronger than your average joe. Of course, that's handbook. Panel feats (say, that famous one from the 1960s, where he's pinned under something I believe was supposed to weigh about as much as a locomotive) have him lifting way more. Let's be generous (since we are going to be generous with Namor below and not go by handbooks), and say Spiderman can MP 100 tons. That makes him 2000x stronger than the average guy.

From what I've seen of Namor's feats, he has shoved masses weighing a few 100,000 tons. I think it's safe to say he could MP 100,000 tons. That makes him about 2 million times stronger than Mr. Average.

That also makes him 1000x stronger than Spiderman.

Thusly, strength-wise: Joe Average is to Spiderman very roughly as Spiderman is to Namor.
That's a helluva strength difference. This is why I keep saying--given Spiderman's agility and spider-sense, that he has a 3-4/10 chance of beating Namor IF 1) they fight on Spidey's turf (NYC streets and rooftops) wherein he can make optimal use of his environment; and 2) Namor starts drying out and weakening.

I wanted to say 100 is average, but I considered dire situations.

Originally posted by Soljer
Jesus. This is almost as bad as the people saying that LOGAN would beat Namor. lol there have been a bit of Spiderman fanboys on the board lately... I usually would only argue him at best beating a group of Peak humans without CIS... but nothing like Mid tier or above. I find this entertaining. *Grabs popcorn*

let's get this straight.
Marvel comics states that Namor can lift 100 tons.
Marvel comics states that Spiderman can lift about 15 tons.
That makes Namor about 6.5 times stronger than Spiderman.
Spiderman beat the holy goddamn out of Titania.
Titania was equal to She-Hulk at the time.
She could lift 85 tons.

Clearly Spiderman CAN give Namor a good fight considering
his agility and spidersense. Of course, Namor will eventually
win the majority of these considering his flight, speed, experience
& ferocity. But it's not a curbstomping by any means.

when reading comics for many years, one should be able
to tell between facts and hyperbole.

Namor can lift/punch way more then 100 tons, though. Try closer to 100,000-500,000 tons. He has literally moved the mass of islands and cities more then once.

The best Spidey has ever been able to lift/punch, under great stress is probably 50 tons. That would already make Namor 2000-10000 times stronger then Spider-Man.

Namor is a badass.
He is the second or third comicbook superhero ever created.
I'm straight. He wears speedos.
I buy virtually everybook he appears in.

but let's face it.....we didn't invent the character.
Regardless of what we think or what some pot-smoking (mmm)
artist in the 70's drew......
Marvel has clearly and consistantly stated Namor's strength as 85 tons.
Then recently stated him as 100 tons.
This is true of ALL of Marvel's upper-strength characters.
Hence the term....Class 100.

Originally posted by Zahit
Namor is a badass.
He is the second or third comicbook superhero ever created.
I'm straight. He wears speedos.
I buy virtually everybook he appears in.

but let's face it.....we didn't invent the character.
Regardless of what we think or what some pot-smoking (mmm)
artist in the 70's drew......
Marvel has clearly and consistantly stated Namor's strength as 85 tons.
Then recently stated him as 100 tons.
This is true of ALL of Marvel's upper-strength characters.
Hence the term....Class 100.

Class 100 just means "The character is capable of lifting in excess of 100 tons"

The Hulk? Superman? Namor? Colossus? All are class 100, but ALL have feats of strength that are WAY past 100 class.

Originally posted by Zahit
Namor is a badass.
He is the second or third comicbook superhero ever created.
I'm straight. He wears speedos.
I buy virtually everybook he appears in.

but let's face it.....we didn't invent the character.
Regardless of what we think or what some pot-smoking (mmm)
artist in the 70's drew......
Marvel has clearly and consistantly stated Namor's strength as 85 tons.
Then recently stated him as 100 tons.
This is true of ALL of Marvel's upper-strength characters.
Hence the term....Class 100.

The people who invented the character, however, have put him above measly 100 tons. Including Bill Everett, his creator (who also was the first artist of Namor). Including ol' Stan. John Byrne. Roy Thomas. Bob Harras. And so on.

Handbooks are written by some guy who hasn't written a comic in his life.

Which one should we trust?

And like Soljer said, Class 100 is more then 100 tons.

yes. feats past 100 tons. but 200,000 tons???

that's like saying I can lift over 1 pound.

He's done 100,000+ feats more then once, including under the pen of his own creator.

Hulk is also Class 100, but he lifts millions of tons on regular basis...

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
And like Soljer said, Class 100 is more then 100 tons. yes

I believe all Class 100 means, is that particular character can lift at least 100 tons.

submariner

Originally posted by Zahit
yes. feats past 100 tons. but 200,000 tons???

that's like saying I can lift over 1 pound.

It's EXACTLY like saying that you can lift more than a pound. As DC pointed out - look at some of Hulk's top feats. He's still class 100.

Hell, look at power gem wielders. Still class 100. Look at Modt or Jahf. Still class 100.

Hell, even the Living Tribunal would only be classed as Class 100, and we know that with his near omnipotence, he could grant himself FAR more than the kind of strength we've ever witnessed on panel.

Simply, comic book writers don't want to start attaching numbers to everyone. "He's not class 13401324! He's 13401325!!"

100 is simply ANYWHERE in excess of 100 tons.

.

Namor lifts thousands without breaking a sweat.

And this post seems really disjointed.

Oh well.

Originally posted by thedude1948
Dude... no.... please....stop........

I believed you just embarrassed yourself. I'm pretty sure many here knows that a peak human (pro boxer) can hit with more than 1800lbs per square inch. It is a somewhat common fact. In which you can learn on the discovery channel about martial arts striking or the movie "Rocky IV".
Thus with more than 5 square inches of fist area you can clearly see that 4 tons is actually a nice estimate.

Originally posted by rotiart
actually what it means is that he cannot react physically fast enough even though his mind tells him to me... much like a deer caught in the headlights...

When daredevil fought spiderman, his radar sense told him where spiderman was coming from, but he even said spiderman was much faster then he was, and therefore he could not get away...

his radar sense gives him 360 degrees of sight... he sees you coming at all times..

Spiderman's "precog" otherwise known as spidersense warns him of impending danger... do you even know wtf thats based on? lemme give you a lesson young pup.

a spider has a web. When a fly lands in said web, the web moves, spider knows where the vibrations came from to let him know whats up.
I, being a larger then spider mortal, have caught many a spider, how you say? big jar, slammed over top of spider, never disturbing his web. even if you disturb the web, the spider can only react SO fast.

You make allusions to the fact that spiderman moves ftl. Which is complete and utter bs. you say the greater the threat, the better he'll react. Well fancy this, spiderman has shown that he can dance around powerful.. .but slow opponents, but that he can still get tagged by others.

You aren't even using his shown abilities, you're making statements about what he COULD do, not what he has done... btw all these arguements about the fact that he can sense the danger coming means jack when he still gets tagged. And if you wanna go against 40 years showing what his established abilities are....


This is a comic character and not real life.
So are you implying the Spidey's spidersense isn't precog?
Answer please!

If you find at least 1000 spiderman comics (from any years). I guarantee you that you will find at least 300 (and im underestimating)
scenes where he dodges super fast attacks such as bullets, energy, fists attacks from super power beings, etc.

Spidey has proven his spider-sense is precog a billion times. Not only has Marvel said it a million times in every handbook, marvel card, and website in existence, they have shown it constantly in the comics. Thus rendering what you said nonsense.

Yes spidey has been hit.
Yes Wolverine cut Thanos with bone claws.
Yes Cap has throw his shield faster than sound.
Yes spiderman beat firelord.
Yes Thor with superior reflexes let slow Juggs hit him.

Yes writers do bad writing.
Yes writers write characters not using the best of their abilities often.
Yes spidey sense is precog.

Remember the forum rules: Characters must use the best of their abilities. That means spidey has his spidersense.

Originally posted by tkitna
Namor has hit Quicksilver, Speed Demon, and the Whizzer, but yet has a problem connecting with Spiderman? Give me a break (although I see this as I saw the Doc Samson thread, but got shot down there too).

Namor 10/10

Spider sense my friend.

Originally posted by Zahit
Namor is a badass.
He is the second or third comicbook superhero ever created.
I'm straight. He wears speedos.
I buy virtually everybook he appears in.

but let's face it.....we didn't invent the character.
Regardless of what we think or what some pot-smoking (mmm)
artist in the 70's drew......
Marvel has clearly and consistantly stated Namor's strength as 85 tons.
Then recently stated him as 100 tons.
This is true of ALL of Marvel's upper-strength characters.
Hence the term....Class 100. I don't know how this legend got started with class 100 being the top of the food chain but it's not. I think that damm Marveldirectory started that sh!t. Anyways Incaluable strength is suppose to be over 100 tons. CL 100 strength is suppose to be up to 100 tons max. Namor is CL 100 but he is not incalcuable level I don't care what his feats show. Same goes for any character. Namor is a notch below the big dogs in Marvel.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Yes!


I still don't think so.

Comics override handbooks as canon. Namor has done greater feats then written in handbooks before and after handbooks were published.



You must don't know how handbooks are made by marvel. Take a look at this and go to "how character profile is done": http://www.marvel.com/universe/ OHOTMU:FAQ#How_do_you_go_about_writing_each_profil
e.3F

It explains that the writers (who themselves write the comics) read
"through the entry-subject's every appearance in chronological order, making notes of the significant data." It also explains that if there is any conflicting data then the handbook writers go to the original writers of that character and clarify the ruling situation.

Also shame on you for not knowing that Spider has shown 40tons or more strength countless times. You are supposed to be a comic fan.
Go the spiderman's respeck page. They list several feats in which he lifted about 40tons of steel of his back, partially braced a multistory building (in which weighs hundreds of thousands of tons), etc. All these under great stress of course.

Few attacks, yeah. But when you are attacked all the time, you will get hit sooner or later, especially if your attacker moves as fast as you do.

According to your reasoning, Spider-Man could dodge Flash...

Beautiful! Very good reasoning there. I give you props there.
My defense to that is that flash isn't some dumb beam of light with no mind of his own. He can move and react so fast that time nearly stands still. Thus spidey is caught in a still frame in a dodging stance.
So spidey can't dodge him. But namor is nowhere even close to that speed. Namor looks at spidey, determines to swing in his mind, spidey's sense rings, namor swings, spidey dodges (spidey has already started to move before the intial frame of namor's animation).





Didn't I refute that?
Moving in evasion action to dodge lasers is what all can do (even me if im lucky). Namor taking the best IM punch without budging is laughable.
I would like to see that nonetheless.
That means that it is okay for bats to take high class 100 hits from evil enemies (who are tying to kill him) in the face. Which means that bats has superman's durability right? That means Namor's durability is far greater than Sentry's in which IM busted his nose with one hit.



If I was 1000 times stronger than me then my punches can be measured on the Richter scale too.



Nope not really. Since that would mean that spiderman has close to class 100 strength. Cap has close to class 50 strength. Juggs is fast enough to hit Thor in the face without Thor being able to respond.

Without consistentcy (in which the handbook gives), then comics would be in total chaos. Nothing would make sense.



Yes please!



Yet he doesn't show movement and is looking surprised.


0% movement. 100% surprised look on his face.



Namor didn't make hundreds hand movements in a sec. If that was the case then we should see his hands at all in that scan but an undiscernable blur of fury.
I don't have the comic but "Spider-Man: The Ultimate Guide" shows scans from a comic in which he fought Hulk and used the same punching speed (it looked a little faster though) as Namor but combined it will moving his body all around Hulk. He was a multiple blur why Hulk desperately swings in the wind (as the book explains). I didn't mean he sculpted a Hulk statue literally. Just that the way he is tagging the Hulk looks like he is sculpting him.



Wow! I never thought glads actually went through a star. Wiki and other very credible sources always said he just boasted about it and never actually showed it. I would like to see that scan if it is possible for you to scan or direct me to it.




It didn't say a few seconds. It could be at least a minute for all we know.



I have never seen namor move faster than spidey. Sorry, but many would disagree with you here. I admit though, he can move very close to spidey's speed.



Yes they do. But that is why we must go on the writer's intentions as well (In which is what you implied). Marvel writers not only know that Namor is 100tons strength but they continue to write it in hanbooks (since the beginning more than 30 years) and at their official website. Obviously Namor was intended (by original writer) not to exceed the 100 ton cap. The same is that Spiderman was intended not to exceed the 15 ton cap by Stan Lee. Otherwise handbook writers (who write the actual comics themselves and who consult with the original writers) wouldn't have consistently put him at 100 tons strength and spiderman at 10-15ton strength.

Originally posted by h1a8
This is a comic character and not real life.
So are you implying the Spidey's spidersense isn't precog?
Answer please!

If you find at least 1000 spiderman comics (from any years). I guarantee you that you will find at least 300 (and im underestimating)
scenes where he dodges super fast attacks such as bullets, energy, fists attacks from super power beings, etc.

Spidey has proven his spider-sense is precog a billion times. Not only has Marvel said it a million times in every handbook, marvel card, and website in existence, they have shown it constantly in the comics. Thus rendering what you said nonsense.

Yes spidey has been hit.
Yes Wolverine cut Thanos with bone claws.
Yes Cap has throw his shield faster than sound.
Yes spiderman beat firelord.
Yes Thor with superior reflexes let slow Juggs hit him.

Yes writers do bad writing.
Yes writers write characters not using the best of their abilities often.
Yes spidey sense is precog.

Remember the forum rules: Characters must use the best of their abilities. That means spidey has his spidersense.

What the hell are you on.

My entire statement was the effect: There are ways around the spidersense.

As captain america showed when he pounded on spiderman in civil war.

As ironman showed when he slammed into spiderman, you didn't see parker jump out of the way now did you.

As for the arguements of spiderman dodging bullets, fists, attack from superpowered beings, energy... you just described not only iron fist, but captain america, daredevil, gamora, wolverine, and countless others.

Originally posted by Sam Z
Tyson hits with 3000lbs. per square. but it doesn't mean that in general hi can hit with 6 tons force. If that was the case he would've been able to send an elephant fly.

What don't you understand about 3000lbs. per (or for each) square inch?
It is a square who has sides the length of an inch.
So at least 5 squares can cover his fist. You do the math.

You must understand something about give, impulse, momemtum, and hitting in a small area to know why the 6 ton elephant barely or doesn't move.

Originally posted by h1a8




You must don't know how handbooks are made by marvel. Take a look at this and go to "how character profile is done": http://www.marvel.com/universe/ OHOTMU:FAQ#How_do_you_go_about_writing_each_profil
e.3F

It explains that the writers (who themselves write the comics) read
"through the entry-subject's every appearance in chronological order, making notes of the significant data." It also explains that if there is any conflicting data then the handbook writers go to the original writers of that character and clarify the ruling situation.

Start showing this around. I was gonna make a thread with that information you showed. The handbook writers are not random people they pick up off the street.

Originally posted by h1a8
I believed you just embarrassed yourself. I'm pretty sure many here knows that a peak human (pro boxer) can hit with more than 1800lbs per square inch. It is a somewhat common fact. In which you can learn on the discovery channel about martial arts striking or the movie "Rocky IV".
Thus with more than 5 square inches of fist area you can clearly see that 4 tons is actually a nice estimate.

Show me a credible source that says a pro boxer can hit for 1800 PSI, it is actually closer to 800-1000 (this is common knowledge), a good Kickboxer can kick about 1600 PSI, so stop spreading that BS. You show you have zero clue about how force is measured.

Here is a link
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/08/060814-fight-science_2.html

A pro boxer can punch for 1,000 pounds of impact force. And you are saying you can punch with 4 tons of force? yeah I believe you.....

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Namor can lift/punch way more then 100 tons, though. Try closer to 100,000-500,000 tons. He has literally moved the mass of islands and cities more then once.

The best Spidey has ever been able to lift/punch, under great stress is probably 50 tons. That would already make Namor 2000-10000 times stronger then Spider-Man. Errr. I've read through your respect thread once. I don't remember seeing anything that clearly shows he can lift that kind of weight. I've seen him brace sunken oil tankers while in the water (remember bouyancy also!) and shaken an island with a double fist pound, whose momentum was reinforced by a magnetic pull downwards, but him lifting 500,000 tons? Some of your scans show him having trouble lifting 50 tons in one hand on land. Maybe newer scans I haven't seen?
Originally posted by h1a8
Okay
Imagine a rubber bullet that is fired at a tree stump.
After impact, the rubber bullet would bounce off with nearly the same momentum as it struck the stump with. Also with the same force by newtons 3rd law. Now say some unmovable object followed right behind the bullet while it traveled (like juggernaut's finger slightly touching the bullet from behind as it traveled-speedy juggs) So the bullet compresses to bounce off the tree with nearly the same force only to go into Juggs finger (which has no give) and thus compresses on Juggs finger to go back into the tree with almost the same momemtum at first strike. This is nearly double the force. Juggs finger plays the role of the force mirror.

So a strike from spiderman with his feet connected to an unmovable ground would cause his punch to be almost double in momemtum and force as was intially thrown.

Do you get it? This doesn't work either h1a8. You're assuming that the ground will act as a 'mirror' for the redirected force and it will be perfectly redistributed back into the point of impact, but this is clearly not the case because the force will more than likely spread into and throughout the ground and throughout his body before being redirected back into the point of impact. Besides, I bench my own body weight 17 times. Are you saying if I had an immovable object beneath me to redistribute my force, I could bench twice the weight? Point is, when I bench my own body weight, I'm already braced against an immovable object... the bench itself. Strength is usually measured with leverage and bracing factored in already. You don't have to factor it a second time.

For the majority, on land, I'd say Spidey will get flung around as embarassingly as Wrecker tosses him around, but Spidey goin hardcore is not to be underestimated. I personally think he could give the Thing a real tough time since someone else made the comparison.

Spidey's spidey-sense/agility is much more potent against enemies that do not know his every power, ability and skill like Cap. To use Cap as a reference to downplay Spidey's agility is unfair. As far as I know, Namor has no intimate knowledge of Spidey and Spidey's quickness/precog will surprise even Namor. Another advantage is his ability to get people ticked off and unfocused (Namor is a clear candidate for that). And Spidey is smart to boot. Although he'd probably get the smart idea of trying to shock Namor and get reshocked himself and lose one out of ten, I think every person and their mother knows Namor is stronger in water and therefore, he would deduce some way of taking away his moisture and weakening him. Superhuman agility/precog + knack for making his opponents lose focus + Spidey's smarts and scientific insight in Namor's most exploitable weakness? I can see Spiderman buying some time, avoiding the monster hits and goading Namor into a trap a few times.

Hence, Namor 6/10. At this point, I've probably pissed off everyone in this thread, Spidey supporters and Namor supporters alike, so exit stage left...

Originally posted by thedude1948
Show me a credible source that says a pro boxer can hit for 1800 PSI, it is actually closer to 800-1000 (this is common knowledge), a good Kickboxer can kick about 1600 PSI, so stop spreading that BS. You show you have zero clue about how force is measured.

Here is a link
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/08/060814-fight-science_2.html

A pro boxer can punch for 1,000 pounds of impact force. And you are saying you can punch with 4 tons of force? yeah I believe you.....

I think he means per square mile.

Originally posted by h1a8


You must don't know how handbooks are made by marvel. Take a look at this and go to "how character profile is done": http://www.marvel.com/universe/ OHOTMU:FAQ#How_do_you_go_about_writing_each_profil
e.3F

It explains that the writers (who themselves write the comics) read
"through the entry-subject's every appearance in chronological order, making notes of the significant data." It also explains that if there is any conflicting data then the handbook writers go to the original writers of that character and clarify the ruling situation.

Sadly, I have already proven that they did not do so in Namor's case. Every single writer that has ever written Namor for longer then couple of issues has put him above Class 85 or just 100 tons. An d40 MPH flight speed is just ridicolous, even in the first comic he was in he outflew an airplane with ease.

Originally posted by h1a8

Also shame on you for not knowing that Spider has shown 40tons or more strength countless times. You are supposed to be a comic fan.
Go the spiderman's respeck page. They list several feats in which he lifted about 40tons of steel of his back, partially braced a multistory building (in which weighs hundreds of thousands of tons), etc. All these under great stress of course.

The Daily Bugle building? He only braced part of it, I believe this was stated on the scan itself.

Originally posted by h1a8
Beautiful! Very good reasoning there. I give you props there.
My defense to that is that flash isn't some dumb beam of light with no mind of his own. He can move and react so fast that time nearly stands still. Thus spidey is caught in a still frame in a dodging stance.
So spidey can't dodge him. But namor is nowhere even close to that speed. Namor looks at spidey, determines to swing in his mind, spidey's sense rings, namor swings, spidey dodges (spidey has already started to move before the intial frame of namor's animation).

Yes, but what if he throws second punch on the same time Spidey is in middle of dodging another? And while he is dodging the second, another follows. And another and another...meanwhile, Spider-Man also has to focus on doing damage to Namor. Whereas Namor doesn't even have to focus on defending himself, because his durability enables him to take dozens of punches from Spidey before even any actual damage is taken.

Originally posted by h1a8
Didn't I refute that?
Moving in evasion action to dodge lasers is what all can do (even me if im lucky).

And explain me again, why couldn't he dodge Spider-man's punches by moving in evasion?

And no. You can't dodge lasers from an entire firing squad who have been trained to do so, no matter what you want to believe.

Originally posted by h1a8
Namor taking the best IM punch without budging is laughable.
I would like to see that nonetheless.
That means that it is okay for bats to take high class 100 hits from evil enemies (who are tying to kill him) in the face. Which means that bats has superman's durability right? That means Namor's durability is far greater than Sentry's in which IM busted his nose with one hit.

Here.
http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/3567/namorfeat1122jq.gif

Here is him taking a Mjolnir full shot straight in his head without even bleeding or breaking his bones.
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/2039/namorfeat367wt.gif

Here he takes full shot from Ultron who intended to kill him. Let me remind you that Ultron has broken the bones of Hulk with his blasts.
http://img240.imageshack.us/img240/5131/emperordoomgraphicnovel23pr3.jpg

Here he falls from space. His costume is the only thing that suffers any damage.
http://img523.imageshack.us/my.php?image=namorfeat889cy.gif

Need anything else?

Originally posted by h1a8
If I was 1000 times stronger than me then my punches can be measured on the Richter scale too.

Maybe on the lower scale. Namor is in higher.

Originally posted by h1a8
Nope not really. Since that would mean that spiderman has close to class 100 strength. Cap has close to class 50 strength. Juggs is fast enough to hit Thor in the face without Thor being able to respond.

That's why the term PIS was created...those exmples you stated differ radically from the rest of the characters career.

Namor has always been able to fly faster then 40 MPH and lift more then 100 tons. Should I post different examples from ever different era from his comics just to shut you up here?

Originally posted by h1a8
Without consistentcy (in which the handbook gives), then comics would be in total chaos. Nothing would make sense.

There is consistency in comics.

Spider-man has always been able to dodge bullets, for example.

Namor has always been able to lift more then 100 tons.

And millions of similar things could be stated here, but I could save space.

Originally posted by h1a8
Yes please!

I'll post it when I get home.

Originally posted by h1a8
Yet he doesn't show movement and is looking surprised.

Err...yes he does.

Originally posted by h1a8
0% movement. 100% surprised look on his face.

If you look at the first panel of the second scan, he is moving....

Originally posted by h1a8
Namor didn't make hundreds hand movements in a sec. If that was the case then we should see his hands at all in that scan but an undiscernable blur of fury.

So he sculpted an detailed sculpture with few hand movements?

Artists take freedom in stuff like that. Etc. the Gladiator thing.

Flash has similar things etc. where he mades an entire bridge in second, yet only twenty or so movements are shown. Just because they don't actually DRAW hundred movements on it, doesn't mean that they don't do so.

He still made an statue in a second, and that requires hundreds of hand movements. Nothing you can do tho change that.

Originally posted by h1a8
I don't have the comic but "Spider-Man: The Ultimate Guide" shows scans from a comic in which he fought Hulk and used the same punching speed (it looked a little faster though) as Namor but combined it will moving his body all around Hulk. He was a multiple blur why Hulk desperately swings in the wind (as the book explains). I didn't mean he sculpted a Hulk statue literally. Just that the way he is tagging the Hulk looks like he is sculpting him.

So, how is that similar to Namor's case? Namor actually did something that requires hundred or more hand movements, Spider-Man didn't...

Originally posted by h1a8
Wow! I never thought glads actually went through a star. Wiki and other very credible sources always said he just boasted about it and never actually showed it. I would like to see that scan if it is possible for you to scan or direct me to it.

When it comes to comics...Wiki usually isn't credible...

And here...
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b97/Jonathanos/Gladiator/GladStar.jpg

Originally posted by h1a8
It didn't say a few seconds. It could be at least a minute for all we know.

But if you actually look at the picture and consider the situation in hand, it can't be a minute.

Originally posted by h1a8
I have never seen namor move faster than spidey. Sorry, but many would disagree with you here. I admit though, he can move very close to spidey's speed.

I have. The aforementioned sculpting thing.

And I don't think he is faster. But in pure movement speed, he is equal. In dodging, Spider-Man takes the win because

Originally posted by h1a8
Yes they do. But that is why we must go on the writer's intentions as well (In which is what you implied). Marvel writers not only know that Namor is 100tons strength but they continue to write it in hanbooks (since the beginning more than 30 years) and at their official website. Obviously Namor was intended (by original writer) not to exceed the 100 ton cap. The same is that Spiderman was intended not to exceed the 15 ton cap by Stan Lee. Otherwise handbook writers (who write the actual comics themselves and who consult with the original writers) wouldn't have consistently put him at 100 tons strength and spiderman at 10-15ton strength.

The comic book writers and creators do not write handbooks.

And Bill Everett, guy who created Namor had him lift an tanker. If he did not intend to have Namor lift more then 100 tons, why did he have him do so regulary? Same with other writers.

Just because some random handbook guy who sure as hell did not study Namor (40 MPH flight speed to the guy who regulary outspeeds fighter jets...) put Class 85 to Namor, doesn't mean that the WRITING OF HIS ACTUAL CREATOR is wrong. In fact, the handbooks are wrong. Especially when Namor has lifted more then 100 tons before AND after handbooks were created.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
Errr. I've read through your respect thread once. I don't remember seeing anything that clearly shows he can lift that kind of weight. I've seen him brace sunken oil tankers while in the water (remember bouyancy also!) and shaken an island with a double fist pound, whose momentum was reinforced by a magnetic pull downwards, but him lifting 500,000 tons? Some of your scans show him having trouble lifting 50 tons in one hand on land. Maybe newer scans I haven't seen?

Boyucany doesn't apply really when immense water pressure is also considered. And momentum didn't really apply to the Magneto case either, it wasn't mentioned at all. Namor did it under his own strength.

And here is the new respect thread.
http://herochat.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=100333

The bottle thing, for example is one feat where he moves hundreds of thousands of tons with his punches.

Lifting might be different, but if was talking about both lifting and punching.

Originally posted by snoopdogg
Start showing this around. I was gonna make a thread with that information you showed. The handbook writers are not random people they pick up off the street.

Compared to comic writers, they are. In many bios, you can clearly see that if they have done any research at all, the research has been f*cked up.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Compared to comic writers, they are. In many bios, you can clearly see that if they have done any research at all, the research has been f*cked up.

DC,
I give you mad props.That is why in this post I will try to be as objective as I possibly can.
You say a lot of things that make sense. But you must realize that sometimes we all have bias (sometimes without knowing it).
I say this because sometimes I am guilty of it and so are you.
You have exaggerated (maybe not intentionally) many things you have said. For example, you used the word "regularly" when that is not true at all. Namor has over maybe 1000 appearances. Yet of the few credible strength feats he has shown I and many can soundly disagree that he does such things regularly.
Many (not all though) of the scans you have shown are arguable. Please believe me for I will not lie to you here.
But a very few that you have shown does show what you are saying.
You have to admit that sometimes it is very hard to determined what is PIS and what is not. There seems to be no easy way. For many have their own unique twists on what PIS should be. Some here think that 2 or 3 occurences out of more than 1000 is enough to not be PIS (or SmvFL).

I would like for you to answer a question for me. Please try to answer as honestly as you can. It will show great respect if you try to answer as honestly as you can. Here goes:

If Namor has shown that he regularly lifts over 100tons then why do you think that he has been listed as 85 on up to 100tons for all these years, even today?

Yes handbooks do change. Corrections and updates are always made. For example, in an earlier edition of OHOTMU, Juggs strength was listed as 90tons. But in later editions they changed it to class 100 (or incalculable). Thanos was also super human class 100 before (lift up to 100tons). They later changed this (maybe after he received an upgrade-I don't know) to class 100 (or incalculable). Spiderman even received an update from 10tons to 15tons (Today it is 20tons or unknown limit due to an upgrade).

Did you ever write to Marvel concerning Namor's strength?
If so, did you ask them why for all these years (since the beginning) why haven't they updated him to class 100 when they clearly go through his entire history of comics to update his profile.

And yes, some (not all) handbook writers are actual comic book writers.

Originally posted by Grimm22
On land, Namor still gives Thing trouble in h2h combat

Spidey stands no chance here Not sure about that. It's a lot easier for Namor to hit Thing and a lot harder for Thing to hit Namor though.

Originally posted by h1a8
DC,
I give you mad props.That is why in this post I will try to be as objective as I possibly can.
You say a lot of things that make sense. But you must realize that sometimes we all have bias (sometimes without knowing it).
I say this because sometimes I am guilty of it and so are you.
You have exaggerated (maybe not intentionally) many things you have said. For example, you used the word "regularly" when that is not true at all. Namor has over maybe 1000 appearances. Yet of the few credible strength feats he has shown I and many can soundly disagree that he does such things regularly.
Many (not all though) of the scans you have shown are arguable. Please believe me for I will not lie to you here.
But a very few that you have shown does show what you are saying.
You have to admit that sometimes it is very hard to determined what is PIS and what is not. There seems to be no easy way. For many have their own unique twists on what PIS should be. Some here think that 2 or 3 occurences out of more than 1000 is enough to not be PIS (or SmvFL).

The fact just is, every time he has NEEDED to lift more then 100 tons, he has done it. Most Class 100's don't have more lifting feats either.

Originally posted by h1a8
I would like for you to answer a question for me. Please try to answer as honestly as you can. It will show great respect if you try to answer as honestly as you can. Here goes:

If Namor has shown that he regularly lifts over 100tons then why do you think that he has been listed as 85 on up to 100tons for all these years, even today?

Handbook mistake which they have been too lazy to correct. Like said before, under every writer, Namor has shown that he can lift over 100 tons when the need has came.

Originally posted by h1a8
Yes handbooks do change. Corrections and updates are always made. For example, in an earlier edition of OHOTMU, Juggs strength was listed as 90tons. But in later editions they changed it to class 100 (or incalculable). Thanos was also super human class 100 before (lift up to 100tons). They later changed this (maybe after he received an upgrade-I don't know) to class 100 (or incalculable). Spiderman even received an update from 10tons to 15tons (Today it is 20tons or unknown limit due to an upgrade).

Did you ever write to Marvel concerning Namor's strength?
If so, did you ask them why for all these years (since the beginning) why haven't they updated him to class 100 when they clearly go through his entire history of comics to update his profile.

Except that they clearly haven't done so. Why else he would be listed as 40 mph flight speed, when his speed has NEVER been that low? 60 mph swimming speed when EVERY TIME he swims he swims faster then that? 85 tons lifting strength when he has ALWAYS been able to lift more then that when he has had to?

Can YOU tell me, where did they base these stats? Because they clearly have been lifted out of a hat.

Originally posted by h1a8
And yes, some (not all) handbook writers are actual comic book writers.

Most are not. And the guy who wrote Namor's bio certainly wasn't.

They are just single humans who make (a lot) mistakes.

And like said before, comics are higher canon then handbooks.

Spiderman's durability is notoriously bad. His body is only slightly more durable than a normal human.

Namor punches Spiderman's head off accidentally while swatting a bug.

As much as I like Spidey, Namor is way too strong. His speed and flight are what really let him take this battle.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
The fact just is, every time he has NEEDED to lift more then 100 tons, he has done it. Most Class 100's don't have more lifting feats either.

So has spidey and others who exceed their handbook limits.
Doesn't make them stronger now does it?

False. You should know that laziness is the last thing they are guilty of. They have looked through his entire history and consulted with his original writer(s).



I have never seen anywhere canon where his flight speed is 40mph.
I've seen somewhere (not canon though) that his max flight speed is 60mph.
But tires quickly flying at that speed.



Of course they didn't. This would go against the many corrections and upgrades (when a character has been upgraded in the comic-like thanos) they have done and the fact that they consult with the original writers when any discrepencies show up in their entire history of comics (in which they base their rulings on).


They are just single humans who make (a lot) mistakes.
QUOTE]
So do writers. Most don't even know how much something weighs and how fast things are (especially in the old days).
Yes handbook writers make mistakes (most are not power level related but history related). Yet they constently correct them. And since the beginning of handbooks they only once changed Namor from 85tons to 100tons (contact with water). Showing that they have been doing some actual research and consultation.
Namor isn't the only character to exceed his so called limits. Every character has. That is why Marvel's handbook writers look for consistency throughout their career (not just from the beginning). I and others here are not convinced that Marvel writers intentionally want Namor to exceed the 100ton mark.

Why don't you write Marvel concerning this? You haven't answered this.
Try to see what they think.

Originally posted by long pig
Spiderman's durability is notoriously bad. His body is only slightly more durable than a normal human.

Namor punches Spiderman's head off accidentally while swatting a bug.

You mean notoriously good. He has endured things that will instantly tear a human to pieces like paper.
But none of that shows that Namor will actually hit Spidey.

Originally posted by long pig
Spiderman's durability is notoriously bad. His body is only slightly more durable than a normal human.

Namor punches Spiderman's head off accidentally while swatting a bug.

...

Please go look at the whole Spider-man Respect thread. Then come back here and say he is "only slightly more durable than a normal human".

Originally posted by h1a8
So has spidey and others who exceed their handbook limits.
Doesn't make them stronger now does it?

Yes, but to Namor it is REGULAR in comics. EVERY writer has wrote him as Class 100, including his creator.

Can't really fight the facts.

Originally posted by h1a8
False. You should know that laziness is the last thing they are guilty of. They have looked through his entire history and consulted with his original writer(s).

That's kind of hard, isn't it.

Bill Everett, Namor's creator, DIED before the first handbook was even created.

And Bill Everett wrote Namor as Class 100 in his latest writings.

Bill Everett's word >>>>>>>>> Any handbook writer's word.

Because you know, he...created the character.

Originally posted by h1a8
I have never seen anywhere canon where his flight speed is 40mph.
I've seen somewhere (not canon though) that his max flight speed is 60mph.
But tires quickly flying at that speed.

Except that is false too, as no writer has ever wrote Namor as that speed.

Originally posted by h1a8
Of course they didn't. This would go against the many corrections and upgrades (when a character has been upgraded in the comic-like thanos) they have done and the fact that they consult with the original writers when any discrepencies show up in their entire history of comics (in which they base their rulings on).

Yeah, they did. Just look at the bio and compare it to Namor's comic career. And they clearly didn't consult any of Namor's writers, because of the obvious mistakes in the bio.

Originally posted by h1a8
So do writers. Most don't even know how much something weighs and how fast things are (especially in the old days).
Yes handbook writers make mistakes (most are not power level related but history related). Yet they constently correct them. And since the beginning of handbooks they only once changed Namor from 85tons to 100tons (contact with water). Showing that they have been doing some actual research and consultation.

Creators of characters can't really make mistakes with their own character. Writers of characters can increase the power of their character if they wish to do so.

If you wish, I can give you example of 99% of the writers Namor has ever had writing at least one Class 100 feat, flying faster then 40 MPH, and swimming faster then 60 MPH.

You know what that is called? Consistency.
Originally posted by h1a8
Namor isn't the only character to exceed his so called limits. Every character has. That is why Marvel's handbook writers look for consistency throughout their career (not just from the beginning). I and others here are not convinced that Marvel writers intentionally want Namor to exceed the 100ton mark.

*sigh* If they look at consistency, "Why else he would be listed as 40 mph flight speed, when his speed has NEVER been that low? 60 mph swimming speed when EVERY TIME he swims he swims faster then that? 85 tons lifting strength when he has ALWAYS been able to lift more then that when he has had to?"

And you are the only guy here who believes that Namor still can't lift more then 100 tons, sorry.

Originally posted by h1a8
Why don't you write Marvel concerning this? You haven't answered this.
Try to see what they think.

Oh, I write Marvel all the time about different stuff. Seeing as they recieve hundreds, maybe thousands of e-mails every day, I doubt that they have time to answer my questions (haven't answered thus far). But hey, I'll try if it makes you happy.

Hey, maybe I could contact Bill Everett with a spirit medium? I mean, that is obviously what the handbook writers did according to you...

Originally posted by h1a8
You mean notoriously good. He has endured things that will instantly tear a human to pieces like paper.
But none of that shows that Namor will actually hit Spidey.
No, I mean notoriously bad. As in very bad. As in shitty. As in hardly above Captain America's.

Cap actually may be more durable.

Spiderman can be stabbed by a pocket knife weilding 5 year old, he can be shot with a bb gun and bleed, he can fall down steps and break his arm. It's stupid how shit-crack durability he has.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
...

Please go look at the whole Spider-man Respect thread. Then come back here and say he is "only slightly more durable than a normal human".
I have, and he's no more durable than Cap. He only looks durable because he rolls with punches. If I were to punch spidey in the nose with brass knuckles, he'd bleed.

Spiderman's durabiltiy SUCKS and one good punch from Namor would splatter him.

Originally posted by long pig
No, I mean notoriously bad. As in very bad. As in shitty. As in hardly above Captain America's.

Cap actually may be more durable.

Spiderman can be stabbed by a pocket knife weilding 5 year old, he can be shot with a bb gun and bleed, he can fall down steps and break his arm. It's stupid how shit-crack durability he has.


I have, and he's no more durable than Cap. He only looks durable because he rolls with punches. If I were to punch spidey in the nose with brass knuckles, he'd bleed.

Spiderman's durabiltiy SUCKS and one good punch from Namor would splatter him.

Arg. I'm not arguing that Namor will lose. If you'll notice my previous posts in this thread, I said (pretty clearly, too) that Namor wins.

However, I don't like Spidey's durability being bad-mouthed.

When Cap withstands blows like these or appears anywhere near this durable, lemme know.

http://members.lycos.co.uk/shurukudemon/spideyscans/spidey-vs-scorpion1-cropped.jpg
-And Scorpion is stronger and more durable than Spider-Man as well. Keep that in mind.

http://members.lycos.co.uk/shurukudemon/spideyscans/spidey-vs-crimemaster1-combi.jpg

http://members.lycos.co.uk/shurukudemon/spideyscans/spidey-vs-contender1-combi.jpg

http://members.lycos.co.uk/shurukudemon/spideyscans/spidey-vs-misterfear-cropped.jpg

http://img506.imageshack.us/img506/1711/128jy.jpg

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Arg. I'm not arguing that Namor will lose. If you'll notice my previous posts in this thread, I said (pretty clearly, too) that Namor wins.

However, I don't like Spidey's durability being bad-mouthed.

When Cap withstands blows like these or appears anywhere near this durable, lemme know.

http://members.lycos.co.uk/shurukudemon/spideyscans/spidey-vs-scorpion1-cropped.jpg
-And Scorpion is stronger and more durable than Spider-Man as well. Keep that in mind.

http://members.lycos.co.uk/shurukudemon/spideyscans/spidey-vs-crimemaster1-combi.jpg

http://members.lycos.co.uk/shurukudemon/spideyscans/spidey-vs-contender1-combi.jpg

http://members.lycos.co.uk/shurukudemon/spideyscans/spidey-vs-misterfear-cropped.jpg

http://img506.imageshack.us/img506/1711/128jy.jpg
Cap has taken blows harder than those many times, he's been punched by Thanos, Thing, Hulk, Thor, Vision, Wonderman, Thunderstrike etc.

I've never ever once saw a Spiderman durability feat that outclassed Captain America.

Spiderman's durability is HORRID. I could seriously kill him with a knife...a dull knife.

Wow, sorry to say this but you must have not read many Spidey comics.

I'm going to make this huge-ass Spider-Man Respect thread (already got about 900 scans and I am only halfway through), and there are some pretty damn impressive Spidey durability feats there. Basically, he is like brick wall. Normal humans usually break their hands punching him (unless they are superheroes), and even Scorpion said that hitting Spider-Man feels like hitting a bulldozer.

Here is one example, Green Goblin III who has no superhuman strength punches Spidey as hard as he can multiple times and Spidey just talks and feels nothing.
http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/8590/feat14durabilityye0.jpg

I can post a lot more too, like all his fights with Hulk and other people. But Spider-Man is defenitely more durable then Cap. I've never really seen Cap not even budge when hit by someone. Like this:
http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/5453/feat32durabilitypi7.jpg

Originally posted by long pig
Cap has taken blows harder than those many times, he's been punched by Thanos, Thing, Hulk, Thor, Vision, Wonderman, Thunderstrike etc.

I've never ever once saw a Spiderman durability feat that outclassed Captain America.

Spiderman's durability is HORRID. I could seriously kill him with a knife...a dull knife.

Like DarkCrawler said, go read some Spider-Man comics then.

He's taken blows from Hulk, Juggernaut, Morlun, Rhino, Sandman, Doc Ock, Absorbing Man, Firelord, Venom, Carnage, Wrecker, etc., etc.

Originally posted by long pig
Cap has taken blows harder than those many times, he's been punched by Thanos, Thing, Hulk, Thor, Vision, Wonderman, Thunderstrike etc.

I've never ever once saw a Spiderman durability feat that outclassed Captain America.

Spiderman's durability is HORRID. I could seriously kill him with a knife...a dull knife.

Cap is human. cap is enhanced human. The perfect athlete.
He is as fast as a human can possibly be, he is as strong as as human can possibly be. His durability levels enable him to take as much punishment as a human can possibly can. Stamina , endurance , reflexes
apply in the same way. There are humans that can lift 1 ton of weight probably not over their head but off the ground none the less. The highest potential a normal human can possibly reach in any of the categories above determines what Caps limits can be.

Originally posted by python99
Cap is human. cap is enhanced human. The perfect athlete.
He is as fast as a human can possibly be, he is as strong as as human can possibly be. His durability levels enable him to take as much punishment as a human can possibly can. Stamina , endurance , reflexes
apply in the same way. There are humans that can lift 1 ton of weight probably not over their head but off the ground none the less. The highest potential a normal human can possibly reach in any of the categories above determines what Caps limits can be.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Boyucany doesn't apply really when immense water pressure is also considered. And momentum didn't really apply to the Magneto case either, it wasn't mentioned at all. Namor did it under his own strength.

And here is the new respect thread.
http://herochat.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=100333

The bottle thing, for example is one feat where he moves hundreds of thousands of tons with his punches.

Lifting might be different, but if was talking about both lifting and punching. I believe bouyancy absolutely applies. Because immense water pressure does not push down towards gravity, it comes in on all sides, therefore buoyancy counts for a heck of a lot. I mean, just think about when you're in a swimming pool and you can stand on your big toe. You try that out in the air, and you're gonna break that big toe.

Immense water pressure has to do with durability, of which Namor has in spades when he is in the water, but bouyancy still accounts for quite a bit. And I still don't understand how this accounts for how Namor would fight in land. You seem to point out in your respect threads, that Namor in the water is extremely enhanced. Therefore, vice-versa, he is still strong, but has nowhere near the capacity that he does in the water.

I think that on land, he's 100 ton lifter at best, since many of those Bill Russell scans show that he has an incredibly tough time (in Namor's own words) lifting 50 tons in one hand. Perhaps, what I am really asking is, on land, how strong do you believe Namor is?

P.S. The respect thread is too long, I don't know where that bottle thingy is you referred to.

Originally posted by long pig
Spiderman's durability is notoriously bad. His body is only slightly more durable than a normal human.

Namor punches Spiderman's head off accidentally while swatting a bug.

Can't agree with you on that one. Spideys been hit by rhino and hulk and lived to teel about it....... plus all this spidey losing easily crap is on my nerves. Dont forget this is the same guy who beat firelord and jumped the whole xmen......... with that said however he s going to have a tough time with namor

Originally posted by fsufan89
Can't agree with you on that one. Spideys been hit by rhino and hulk and lived to teel about it....... plus all this spidey losing easily crap is on my nerves. Dont forget this is the same guy who beat firelord and jumped the whole xmen......... with that said however he s going to have a tough time with namor

both of those examples were PIS.



how ever I do agree spidy will give namor hell

Originally posted by fsufan89
Can't agree with you on that one. Spideys been hit by rhino and hulk and lived to teel about it

which doesn't mean much when you take into account that cap's been hit by hulk, hulk clones, namor, cosmic cubed inhanced red skull, mr. hyde, and absorbing man and done the same... :/

that said, while I DO think spiderman has more overall durability than cap, spiderman's does not dwarf caps by any stretch of the imagination. nu-uh...

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I believe bouyancy absolutely applies. Because immense water pressure does not push down towards gravity, it comes in on all sides, therefore buoyancy counts for a heck of a lot. I mean, just think about when you're in a swimming pool and you can stand on your big toe. You try that out in the air, and you're gonna break that big toe.

Immense water pressure has to do with durability, of which Namor has in spades when he is in the water, but bouyancy still accounts for quite a bit. And I still don't understand how this accounts for how Namor would fight in land. You seem to point out in your respect threads, that Namor in the water is extremely enhanced. Therefore, vice-versa, he is still strong, but has nowhere near the capacity that he does in the water.

I think that on land, he's 100 ton lifter at best, since many of those Bill Russell scans show that he has an incredibly tough time (in Namor's own words) lifting 50 tons in one hand. Perhaps, what I am really asking is, on land, how strong do you believe Namor is?

P.S. The respect thread is too long, I don't know where that bottle thingy is you referred to.

See the updated Respect Thread on the SHC.
http://herochat.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=100333

And Bill who? You mean Bill Everett? That 50 tons scan was from Stan Lee, who also wrote Namor as Class 100 tonner later on. And if Namor isn't dehydrated on land, he is as strong in there as he is on water.

Originally posted by capt it up
both of those examples were PIS.



how ever I do agree spidy will give namor hell

I dont think it was PIS. I think its just a case of the X men underestimating Spidey. Once he had the upper hand the X men were running around confused.

Namor would kick spideys butt namor 90%>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>10%

P.S. Did you ever notice that namor backwards is roman.

spiderman

Originally posted by hulk10
Namor would kick spideys butt namor 90%>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>10%

P.S. Did you ever notice that namor backwards is roman.

Yeah, that is where his creator got the idea of the name. Roman backwards.

Namor 8/10

Originally posted by long pig
Cap has taken blows harder than those many times, he's been punched by Thanos, Thing, Hulk, Thor, Vision, Wonderman, Thunderstrike etc.

I've never ever once saw a Spiderman durability feat that outclassed Captain America.

Spiderman's durability is HORRID. I could seriously kill him with a knife...a dull knife. We're talking about Captian America here, he'd be wasted by these characters in the forum.

Namor has the strength and spidey has a little more reflexes so i'm going to say that namor will win.

Originally posted by DarkCrawler
Yeah, that is where his creator got the idea of the name. Roman backwards.

I would also like to point out that Rob Liefeild created a character while in Image called Roman. Who was a clone of Namor.

Rob = Hack