Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

This battle is mainly a battle of stategy

This Battle would take place over a neutral planet, with both armadas.

The battle is not as much about size but about strategy.

which side would win?

I personally think that Revan's empire would win, because Revan was an expert statgist, and also he has the star forge suppling his ships, so presumably he would have a large force.

Originally posted by Spartan 063
This battle is mainly a battle of stategy

This Battle would take place over a neutral planet, with both armadas.

The battle is not as much about size but about strategy.

which side would win?

I personally think that Revan's empire would win, because Revan was an expert statgist, and also he has the star forge suppling his ships, so presumably he would have a large force.

So each side has ALL of their ships and superweapons in tact?

The GE PWNS!!! (Literally)

Originally posted by Spartan 063
I personally think that Revan's empire would win, because Revan was an expert statgist, and also he has the star forge suppling his ships, so presumably he would have a large force.

1. Yes, Revan was an expert strategist, which is nothing special considering the Empire's lineup of the people who are just as, if not more skilled than Revan in the area. Empire takes this.

2. The Star Forge isn't indestructible, and just because it can supply ships doesn't turn the tide in Revan's favor. The only thing the Forge has going for it is a field that deactivates ships within a small range, but with the Imperial Fleet's firepower, such a point is moot. Empire takes this as well.

3. Imperial tech is way ahead, giving them a huge advantage considering Revan fights against ships he has never seen before and is completely unfamiliar with the strengths and weaknesses they possess. The Empire has far greater firepower and a superweapon that greatly surpasses anything the Star Forge can muster. Empire takes this too.

This has been argued before. Matter of fact, it was concurred the Imperial Remnant could take Revan's Sith. Empire wins.

Originally posted by Se7in
1. Yes, Revan was an expert strategist, which is nothing special considering the Empire's lineup of the people who are just as, if not more skilled than Revan in the area. Empire takes this.
Actually, the only being we can say that was a better tactician in the SW universe, would be Thrawn. That is it.


If you are going to say Revan loses because he is "unfamiliar" with the Empire's technology, I'm going to say that the Empire loses because they are unfamiliar with Revan's technology. This is a terrible line of thought.


And this is relevant to this specific debate how?

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
And this is relevant to this specific debate how?

Probably because the empire has more ships and man power than the remnant.

Originally posted by Se7in
1. Yes, Revan was an expert strategist, which is nothing special considering the Empire's lineup of the people who are just as, if not more skilled than Revan in the area. Empire takes this.
There are very few people in SW mythos who could match Revan in terms of intelligence and smartness. Thrawn is the only person who is believed to be the better tactican.

Originally posted by Se7in
2. The Star Forge isn't indestructible, and just because it can supply ships doesn't turn the tide in Revan's favor. The only thing the Forge has going for it is a field that deactivates ships within a small range, but with the Imperial Fleet's firepower, such a point is moot. Empire takes this as well.
The shield is actually huge in size. It does not allows anything to even get near the Star Forge.

Death Star is the only real threat to the Star Forge. Though it itself is not indestructable. If the insignificant rebellion can take it down then Revan's ships can also do that. Revan would surely plan something in advance to deal with this kind of threat.

Originally posted by Se7in
3. Imperial tech is way ahead, giving them a huge advantage considering Revan fights against ships he has never seen before and is completely unfamiliar with the strengths and weaknesses they possess. The Empire has far greater firepower and a superweapon that greatly surpasses anything the Star Forge can muster. Empire takes this too.
Revan would have support of massive numbers due to Star Forge and he did had some quality ships in his fleet. Though not significant by modern standards but their fire-power was still immense, as they could cause planetary wide destruction.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Actually, the only being we can say that was a better tactician in the SW universe, would be Thrawn. That is it.

Ackbar nearly matched Thrawn's skill. A newer Bothan General actually defeated Thrawn in a simulator. I'd say there are many people who have come close or surpassed Revan.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
If you are going to say Revan loses because he is "unfamiliar" with the Empire's technology, I'm going to say that the Empire loses because they are unfamiliar with Revan's technology. This is a terrible line of thought.

Actually not. All the Imperials have to do is open a textbook.

I'll say it again, the GE PWNS!!!

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Ackbar nearly matched Thrawn's skill. A newer Bothan General actually defeated Thrawn in a simulator. I'd say there are many people who have come close or surpassed Revan.
This is your unfounded opinion.





Textbook? Gosh I didn't know that Revan's Empire and fleet details were in Imperial text books.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
This is your unfounded opinion.

Yes, the Bothan winning the Thrawn simulator is my unfounded opinion.

Ackbar being stated to nearly match Thrawn in the Thrawn trilogy must be my unfounded opinion. Thankyou very much dumbass.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Textbook? Gosh I didn't know that Revan's Empire and fleet details were in Imperial text books.

Military history, moron.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Yes, the Bothan winning the Thrawn simulator is my unfounded opinion.
No, that there are "many people that have surpassed Revan".


Except for the fact that I never said that, care to learn how to read?





Calm down you prepubescent jackass. You're assuming their military history goes back that far..

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
No, that there are "many people that have surpassed Revan".


Except for the fact that I never said that, care to learn how to read?





Calm down you prepubescent jackass. You're assuming their military history goes back that far..

The Empire curbstomps Revan's boys.

Greater tech (better defense)

Greater fire power

Greater no.s

Greater specific training (Clone troopers vs Enlisted ordinary people. Improved training for Officers)

And whats this about Revan being the second best strategist in SW?

I would put Ackbar, Thrawn and Oppo Rancis (who actually had strategies named after him and was one of the greatest strategist of his era) above him without a second thought. Anyone else and it boils down to a debate on evidence (which there's very little of on either side).

Revan was good/great at military strategy, this doesn't translate to: "greatest strategist outside of Thrawn". I wouldn't rank Revan anywhere on his strategy. It's enough for me to know that he was good enough to help the Republic win the Mando Wars and especially, defeat the Mando's at Malachor 5.

Yet more unsubstantiated claims. I don't care what you "would" do. Make an argument or don't post.

Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
A newer Bothan General actually defeated Thrawn in a simulator. I'd say there are many people who have come close or surpassed Revan.

But as they say in the book, beating a simulator is nothing compared to facing the real thing.



Anyways, Empire wins due to technology and numbers.

ESB wins IMO.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Yet more unsubstantiated claims. I don't care what you "would" do. Make an argument or don't post.
I wouldn't rank him because there's very little in the way of details in regard to Revan's strategy. There's details on Oppo Rancisis' strategies, and plenty more on Ackbar and Thrawn. None on Revan except that he forced the Mandos to engage the Republic on Malachor and that he envsioned the idea of creating a gravity well.

Revan has plenty to his resume to be considered #2. MORE than enough.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Revan has plenty to his resume to be considered #2. MORE than enough.
Where are these details. All we know is that he won the Republic a war so did Ackbar and Rancisis. How can you really compare Revan stategies when you don't know any of them?

Just curious in which book did a new bothan general beat thrawn in a simulator?

It is Nek Bwua'tu from Unseen Queen.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Nek_Bwua%27tu

Originally posted by tulakhordpwns
It is Nek Bwua'tu from Unseen Queen.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Nek_Bwua%27tu

Thanx

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
There are very few people in SW mythos who could match Revan in terms of intelligence and smartness. Thrawn is the only person who is believed to be the better tactican.

Based on what? Who can we compare Revan to? Mandalorians? Revan was stated as having way superior resources when facing the Mandalorians, saying he used tactics that "killed 1 Mandalorian for every 10 Republic soldiers." The Mandalorians weren't exactly master tacticians either. They literally stuff their soldiers in metal boxes rigged with guns and threw them at the surface of planets.

The point I'm trying to make is, what did Revan actually do? Win with superior resources against an enemy that was running through Outer Rim Colonies, which are virtually the weakest part of the Republic. Yes, he saw the "true" Sith threat before anyone (except maybe Malak who was with him, but possibly so), but that doesn't imply he was a greater tactician than many of the greats of the Empire.

Sure, the Republic was losing before Revan came, and he had a positive effect, but when he joined, not only was he a Jedi, which neither side the Republic before him nor the Mandalorians could equal, but he also brought a significant number of Jedi Knights into the fight alongside him. He didn't turn the tide alone.

The Empire can more than account for skilled Jedi, given the Emperor's Hands and Palpatine himself.



Death Star is the only threat? Are you telling me that ISD's lack both the range and firepower to effectively disrupt, if not outright destroy, the Star Forge?

I doubt it Legend, people seem to think the Star Forge is unstoppable, but if I can recall, a battered Republic managed to scrounge together a force that managed to actually land a ship in the Star Forge despite the "huge" size of the shield.

However, you do have a point of the Rebellion managing to take out the Death Star, but there are a few things that don't give any advantage to Revan.

1) Luke was the actual pilot who shot it, and he was guided by not only the Force, but Obi-Wan himself.

2) The Rebels had extensive information about the Death Star's schematics. Revan doesn't.




Good point. The Leviathan alone did manage to accomplish such a feat.

Originally posted by Se7in
Good point. The Leviathan alone did manage to accomplish such a feat.

No the Leviathon DID have a fleet with it. First off you can't blockade a planet with one ship and there are cutscenes in which malak asks Saul how long would it take to move the fleet into position to glass the planet.

Originally posted by Darth Hord
No the Leviathon DID have a fleet with it. First off you can't blockade a planet with one ship and there are cutscenes in which malak asks Saul how long would it take to move the fleet into position to glass the planet.

I also believed this, but I just watched the cutscene, and it only showed the Leviathan alone firing, albeit with other ships in the background (not firing) after the bombardment.

Originally posted by Se7in
I also believed this, but I just watched the cutscene, and it only showed the Leviathan alone firing, albeit with other ships in the background (not firing) after the bombardment.


The cutscene only shows the Leviathon because it is the capital ship and MALAK was on it. But there were more ships as Malak did order the fleet to get into position to bombard it.

Originally posted by Darth Hord
The cutscene only shows the Leviathon because it is the capital ship and MALAK was on it. But there were more ships as Malak did order the fleet to get into position to bombard it.

An assumption.

You can't state why Bioware did what they did.

What we know is the Leviathan is the only ship seen firing on Taris.

Nothing more.

Except for the fact that it is illogical to think that 1 ship can destroy a planet with blaster bolt. He DID say to position the fleet, so there WAS a fleet.

There was fleet and this video proves it was a coordinated bombardment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JXATIiS0Gw

watch and listen closely to the latter part of the conversation as Saul said it will take hours to move the fleet into position and malak tells him to start immediately.

Originally posted by Se7in
.I doubt it Legend, people seem to think the Star Forge is unstoppable, but if I can recall, a battered Republic managed to scrounge together a force that managed to actually land a ship in the Star Forge despite the "huge" size of the shield.

But in fairness though this is when Bastilla started to use the battle meditation to aid the republic fleet.

Originally posted by Darth Hord
But in fairness though this is when Bastilla started to use the battle meditation to aid the republic fleet.

Wrong.

I'm talking about in the battle where Revan attacked the Star Forge, when Bastila was using her Battle Meditation AGAINST the Republic.

Originally posted by Se7in
Wrong.

I'm talking about in the battle where Revan attacked the Star Forge, when Bastila was using her Battle Meditation AGAINST the Republic.

oops my b.

The cloud of fanboyism is absolutely ridiculous. Darth Glentract, Nai, and the gentlemen over at SD.net have done the math and presented evidence of just how far the Galactic Empire is ahead of any other previously established military regime in galactic history. The Empire literally makes Revan's faction appear pathetic in comparison. To suggest that they are somehow on par, or that Revan's considerable military genius somehow lessens the gap is ridiculous and unsupported, and I -- for one -- demand proof.



Unsupported. Prove that Grand Admiral Thrawn is the only person who exceeds Revan in terms of military genius; a quote or some such would be nice. In fact, I can name -- off the top of my head -- one other person who is, without a shadow of a doubt, Revan's superior: Grand Admiral Demetrius Zaarin. This gentleman staged a coup against the Empire, managing to fool Darth Vader and kidnap Emperor Palpatine himself. After the Emperor was rescued, Zaarin and a small faction of treacherous Imperial forces seceded and engaged in a military campaign against the Empire for months, locked in a stalemate.

Do you know how impressive that is? To be pitted against the forces of a dozen or so other Grand Admirals (who are all Admiral Ackbar's equal according to the New Essential Chronology) and the amassed forces of the Empire itself? That alone puts him quite a bit above Revan.

This is also excluding the other Grand Admirals, Admiral Ackbar, Garm Bel Iblis, General Grievous, Sev'rance Taan, and others. Darth Revan is an impressive tactition and one of the best, but really, he's nowhere as good as you make him out to be.



The Death Star doesn't exactly have to be on top of the Star Forge to attack it; I could point out that it could either detonate the Star Forge in one fell swoop or the Death Star could destroy Lehon and the Imperial Starfleet render the Star Forge into sub-atomic particles.



Faulty logic. The Rebels gained access to the Death Star's schematics after months of espionage due in part to the Bothan Spynet, which was superior to the Empire's own. Saying that Revan "would surely plan something in advance to deal with this kind of threat" is ridiculous and unsupported.

Originally posted by Darth Hord
oops my b.

No problem, you beat me out with the Leviathan bombarment point.

Originally posted by Se7in
No problem, you beat me out with the Leviathan bombarment point.

sweet

Originally posted by Gideon
The cloud of fanboyism is absolutely ridiculous. Darth Glentract, Nai, and the gentlemen over at SD.net have done the math and presented evidence of just how far the Galactic Empire is ahead of any other previously established military regime in galactic history.
Can you please post us a link to it?

...The entire site is dedicated to study and debates centered around the Galactic Empire. There's literally hundreds of relevant links.

Nobody is saying Revan's empire would win here Escape. At least i don't think.

I love how the thread creator purposely kept saying "more about strategy" in order to push the battle in Revans favour, you could at least TRY to make it less obvious that you are trying to make a spite thread next time, but even with it all the Galatic Empire still easily wins this.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Nobody is saying Revan's empire would win here Escape. At least i don't think.

People are trying to open the door for it. Well, I'll be happy to slam it shut. The Empire curbstomps Revan. It's not close. It's not difficult. It's an easy megapwnage.

Originally posted by Gideon
People are trying to open the door for it. Well, I'll be happy to slam it shut. The Empire curbstomps Revan. It's not close. It's not difficult. It's an easy megapwnage.
Pretty much.

Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
I love how the thread creator purposely kept saying "more about strategy" in order to push the battle in Revans favour, you could at least TRY to make it less obvious that you are trying to make a spite thread next time, but even with it all the Galatic Empire still easily wins this.

I can't wait to hear his rebuttal.

Honestly, this is equivalent to sending a toddler armed with a stick of celery against Miyamoto Musashi.

Ya!! Revan!

OK than, I am SICK AND TIRED of both sides in this "debate" and have had it up to HERE (points to ceiling) with the BS spewed by both sides.

OK than, to sum this up: To whoever thought the Leviathan glassed Taris on its lonesome, you are incorrect. When you are in the Ebon Hawk being shot at by Sith Fighters, you can see an armada taking potshots at the planet. Nuff said.

To Darth Sexy: Do you not think that a Galaxy-spanning Authoritarian regime with access to (if not domination of) most planets in the Star Wars Universe, would NOT have data on what is by all accounts a galaxy-changing epic series of conflicts? Than you do not know much about military history and the gathering of such. I can imagine SOME data being lost, true, but far from all. The fact remains that we have mostly reliable data for the events that took place in the Battle of Kadesh from 1274 BC (!!!) with far more of a technology gap than in-universe, and yet we are supposed to believe that the Empire could not find out about an epic war around 4,000 years ago where primary sources were very close in comparison to the tech they were using?

And to The Anomaly, are you dense? Do you have any clue about the military whatsoever? OF COURSE MOST WARS AND BATTLES REVOLVE AROUND STRATEGY ON ONE LEVEL OR ANOTHER! If you cannot grasp that simple tenant of warfare, do us a favor and get back to the one-on-one dueling sections.

Stategic genius has been a factor in warfare. This has turned the tide of war in ways that most would never believe possible. This is evident in more places than I can possibly ever list here, but one way to visualize this are the ultimatums the Russian negotiator to a seemingly-beaten Napoleon, and how harsh they were (Italy must be surrendered immediately, and if war persists, Piedmont and the Low Countries will be included) about one flippin' day before the French blasted the Austrian-Russian army to pieces at Austerlitz.

Luck also plays a role in war. Half the reason the Western Allies managed to survive in WWII was a nonsensical order from Hitler to halt the Panzers just in front of Dunkirk, where they had the chance to wipe out most of the British Empire's forces in one fell swoop.

Do I personally believe that Revan will win this? No, I do not. It is slimly possible, but only very slimly. The Empire will have far superior tech, numbers, and strategic position. So, the only way I can see Revan winning is if he can somehow capture and replicate some Imperial tech, and that would be assuming he could survive long enough to do so in the first place.

The best I can see him realistically doing is to inflict a crushingly pyrrhic victory on them, but even that is questionable to say the least.

I was just playing devil's advocate. You're just assuming that the Empire has the plans and history of Revan's empire, and that the knowledge hasn't been lost.

Revan's Empire had an another super weapon, which was called "Mass Shadow Generator."

That weapon should also be taken in to consideration.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Revan's Empire had an another super weapon, which was called "Mass Shadow Generator."

That weapon should also be taken in to consideration.

Okay, let's take it into consideration.

The Empire doesn't know it's there. However, unless the fleet moves close enough to actually get caught in the gravity well of the MSG, then there's no need to take it into consideration. The Death Star, and many of the ships in the Imperial Fleet could easily destroy Malachor V from more than sufficient range.

Unless the Mass Shadow Generator manages to capture the ENTIRE Imperial Fleet in one fell swoop, it doesn't make much of a difference.

Originally posted by Se7in
Okay, let's take it into consideration.

The Empire doesn't know it's there. However, unless the fleet moves close enough to actually get caught in the gravity well of the MSG, then there's no need to take it into consideration. The Death Star, and many of the ships in the Imperial Fleet could easily destroy Malachor V from more than sufficient range.

Unless the Mass Shadow Generator manages to capture the ENTIRE Imperial Fleet in one fell swoop, it doesn't make much of a difference.
The point is to lure the enemy forces over that planet and send large number of small aircraft to engage them to grab their attention. That's what Revan would do.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
The point is to lure the enemy forces over that planet and send large number of small aircraft to engage them to grab their attention. That's what Revan would do.

You're not Revan, you can't speak on his behalf. I could just as easily say that Palpatine, upon discovering Revan's existence, will infiltrate his organization and use him as a puppet as long as he finds him amusing.

Originally posted by Gideon
You're not Revan, you can't speak on his behalf.
What do you think that Revan did when the MSG weapon was planted on Malachor V on his orders?

He positioned his least loyal forces over that planet and then lured Mandalorian forces to that region.

Then when the battle was taking place, Revan gave the green light to the Jedi Exile for the weapon to be used during combat.

Originally posted by Gideon
I could just as easily say that Palpatine, upon discovering Revan's existence, will infiltrate his organization and use him as a puppet as long as he finds him amusing.
And Revan being used as a puppet by his arch-enemy sounds very amusing. He is smart enough to not let that happen. And he himself was a DLOTS (Master).

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
What do you think that Revan did when the MSG weapon was planted on Malachor V on his orders?

He positioned his least loyal forces over that planet and then lured Mandalorian forces to that region.

Then when the battle was taking place, Revan gave the green light to the Jedi Exile for the weapon to be used during combat.

The Mandalorians didn't have ships powerful enough to bombard Malachor. The Empire does. They wouldn't need to set foot on Malachor, more or less send their entire fleet within range.

I'm beginning to, again, lose my patience with you. You cannot speak on a character's behalf on the issue of tactics or strategies. You do not have access to their mentality or canon facts to support it. Period.



I'm sure it would to you, Captain Fanboy.



Crappy logic for four hundred, Alex. You've made two irrelevant points: that Revan is intelligent and a Dark Lord of the Sith have no bearing on whether or not he can be manipulated. Count Dooku was an intelligent Dark Lord of the Sith, as was Vader, and both of them were used as pawns by Emperor Palpatine.

You don't agree with my logic because I use it the same way you do. You say "Revan can tactically counter the Empire's moves11!" and I can say "Palpatine will infiltrate Revan's Empire and make him his *****!11!" and -- based on credence and feat -- it's just as plausible.

Try again, LeGenD. Raise your game or don't bother continuing to play it.

Originally posted by Gideon
I'm beginning to, again, lose my patience with you. You cannot speak on a character's behalf on the issue of tactics or strategies. You do not have access to their mentality or canon facts to support it. Period.
This is the first sign of total ignorance from you. Your PT fanboyism is taking its toll actually.

Re-check these lines:



Originally posted by Gideon
I'm sure it would to you, Captain Fanboy.
A comment like that can be expected from a PT fanboy like you. Though you have got nothing to back that claim.

Originally posted by Gideon
Crappy logic for four hundred, Alex. You've made two irrelevant points: that Revan is intelligent and a Dark Lord of the Sith have no bearing on whether or not he can be manipulated. Count Dooku was an intelligent Dark Lord of the Sith, as was Vader, and both of them were used as pawns by Emperor Palpatine.
Prove to me that Dooku and Vader were as smart as Revan was.

Revan was the master of his own destiny and he understood things in a way that Dooku and Vader did not. He was himself a master schemer and his feats prove that.

By the way! Dooku and Vader were Sith apprentices and not Sith Masters. And a Sith Master never assumes a role of apprentice.

Originally posted by Gideon
You don't agree with my logic because I use it the same way you do. You say "Revan can tactically counter the Empire's moves11!" and I can say "Palpatine will infiltrate Revan's Empire and make him his *****!11!" and -- based on credence and feat -- it's just as plausible.

Try again, LeGenD. Raise your game or don't bother continuing to play it.
Carry on with your fantasy imaginations. No one will take you seriously in this case.

Originally posted by Se7in
The Mandalorians didn't have ships powerful enough to bombard Malachor. The Empire does. They wouldn't need to set foot on Malachor, more or less send their entire fleet within range.
They were not as primitive as you consider them to be.

They used Nuclear weapons to oblierate life on planets and they could do the same to Malachor.

But they never knew that a super weapon was planted on Malachor V. It was a perfect trap laid for them by Revan.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
This is the first sign of total ignorance from you. Your PT fanboyism is taking its toll actually.
As far as I'm concerned, Escape is the most objective debater on this forum, and he's speaking the truth, so him calling you a fanboy doesn't make him a pt fanboy.




I didn't know Escape even made that assertion, as it would be untrue.



What the hell? Apparently you missed the entire purpose of Bane's lineage, where there is a master and an apprentice, but both are Dark Lords of the Sith, so your point is totally irrelevant and incorrect.



I beg to differ Legend, and it is YOU nobody is taking seriously because of your OBVIOUS KOTOR fanboyism.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
As far as I'm concerned, Escape is the most objective debater on this forum, and he's speaking the truth, so him calling you a fanboy doesn't make him a pt fanboy.
I do recognize his talent in debating Star Wars related materials but he has indeed ignored a canon information that I have mentioned over here that shows that what Revan finally planned and did to end the threat of the Mandalorian forces once and for all.

What I mentioned over here is actually canon information and not my own invention and thus it supports my early assertion.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I didn't know Escape even made that assertion, as it would be untrue.
He is saying that Sidious can manipulate Revan in the similar manner just as he managed to do so with Dooku and Vader. Now the burden of proof is upon him because he is making that assertion.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
What the hell? Apparently you missed the entire purpose of Bane's lineage, where there is a master and an apprentice, but both are Dark Lords of the Sith, so your point is totally irrelevant and incorrect.
Malak was also a Dark Lord of the Sith but he was apprentice of Revan. I never missed any point.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I beg to differ Legend, and it is YOU nobody is taking seriously because of your OBVIOUS KOTOR fanboyism.
Since when have you started to speak for Gideon? Just because some people would not take me seriously, it does not means that no one would.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD

Since when have you started to speak for Gideon? Just because some people would not take me seriously, it does not means that no one would. Actually the majority of us here do not want to take you seriously, I myself is starting to not take you seriously at all.

Or do you need me to list the names of those who just cant be bothered to take you seriously anymore?

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
They were not as primitive as you consider them to be.

They used Nuclear weapons to oblierate life on planets and they could do the same to Malachor.

But they never knew that a super weapon was planted on Malachor V. It was a perfect trap laid for them by Revan.

You overestimate the Mandalorians. They weren't expert strategists. They were powerful, expertly trained, but not tacticians. They used brute force and overwhelming strength to overcome their enemies.

They were easily manipulated and predicted by the likes of Kreia and Revan. They didn't have the foresigh to match the likes of the two Force-Users.

The Empire does. Not to mention they have master strategists above the likes of Revan.

Originally posted by Se7in
You overestimate the Mandalorians. They weren't expert strategists. They were powerful, expertly trained, but not tacticians. They used brute force and overwhelming strength to overcome their enemies.

They were easily manipulated and predicted by the likes of Kreia and Revan. They didn't have the foresigh to match the likes of the two Force-Users.
Do you always have to be a Force User to be a great tactician?

I don't think so!

Originally posted by Se7in
The Empire does. Not to mention they have master strategists above the likes of Revan.
Did I said that the Empire cannot win in this War?

Sorry for the delay, people; I've been knee-deep in Halo 3.



Oh, geez, lol. You recycle excellent verbal spars and make them terribly crappy; stick to the debates, not the witty retorts. You've accused me of PT fanboyism since the dawn of time -- the fact yet remains that all I've done is simply point out that the PT (and the OT, for that matter) is the superior era by merit of technology and stronger Force-users. On the flip side, we have you, who has proclaimed on numerous occasions "how uber!!1!" the KotoR-era is, despite the fact that it is very much fact that the PT > KotoR. Hell, LeGenD, everyone -- Advent, Se7in, Darth Sexy, Lightsnake, Manslayer -- has commented on it. Any thread with the word "Revan", "Malak", "KotoR", "Bandon", "Bastilla", "Nihilus" or "Kreia", you have to remind everyone how 'pwnage!!1' they are, even if they'd get owned.

DE Sidious and LotF Luke Skywalker vs. Darth Revan, as interpreted by LeGenD:

"Well, Revan is a very powerful Sith Lord (-proceeds to list six or seven in-game feats-) and is very intelligent (second only Thrawn in tactics!1!) and possesses a nearly unrivaled command of the Force. But he'd lose."

Or you'd ignore it entirely, never mentioning how effortlessly he'd be annihilated.

So, in conclusion, who's the fanboy around here? That'd be you mate.



Whoop-dee-friggin-doo, LeGenD. It wasn't worth the response! You were arguing that Darth Revan performed 'X' feat under 'Y' circumstances, and, ergo, he can always do it again. My rebuttal? Palpatine manipulated vastly intelligent and vastly experienced individuals into doing his bidding, unwittingly and otherwise, for decades: ergo, he could do it again. Meaning, once again, Palpatine trumps Revan.

I use your own logic and beat you with it. Try doing the same with me.



That was never the claim. Having a bias attack? I wonder if they prescribe medicine for it. The claim was that Palpatine manipulated very intelligent Sith Lords to do his bidding -- ergo, by your logic -- he'd do the same here.

Why is that the same as your logic? Because you made the claim that Revan could pull a stunt that he did during a KotoR-era struggle against a vastly stronger military force (the Empire) commanded by dozens of brilliant tactitions -- two of which are his superiors (Thrawn and Zaarin).



Sorry, but by your logic, the second he grappled with the Empire -- he wouldn't be the master of anything when Palpatine got ahold of him. Dooku and Vader were also the 'masters of their own destiny', but they were just unwittingly manipulated into surrendering it to one man.



To quote Darth Sexy: 'what the hell?'

That was never the claim. That doesn't even make sense. Vader, Maul, and Dooku were 'Dark Lords of the Sith' as per Bane's teachings. I never claimed that they were masters, nor is that relevant at all, as mastery is not indicative of intelligence.



Sorry, mate. But you need to grasp two things:

1.) I used your own logic and curbstomped you with it. Your logic sucks. You need to convert to the kind I use -- the real kind -- and take a stab. Darth Revan is effortlessly annihilated by greater forces, better strategists, and better tactitions. He loses. Sorry.

2.) 'No one will take me seriously'? So far, the vast -- vast -- majority have sided with me, not you. Your relationship with ignorance makes me wonder if it somehow birth to you or something.

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/2980/ownedpb2.jpg

Well said Gideon clappingclappingclapping

Well said indeed sir gideon. It pleases me every time somebody hands mr kotor fanboys ass.


Now this is legends fanboyism

"Zomg! palapoot!n3 !$ sm@rT bUt $0 !s Rev@n!!!!!! buT h3 WuD $T!Ll L0$3!!!!!"

or

"Because this guy A performed feat X while guy B did not, Guy A > Guy B!!!!!"

Or

"Kotor Guy A can do X in situation Y, he can do it again as and when he likes!"


Or when he cant get any reliable sources, he turns to pure gameplay.

"Nihilus Absorbed their force attacks!!!!!"

And if i recall correctly, he has made imaginary feats for revan.

"He killed the entire rakata army population with one stroke of lightning while diverting the lightning from malak!!!!"

Which sidious did to the traitor storm troopers in empire: betrayel.

Oh wait theres some more of legends crap

"Revan and his biatch malak can block lukes emerald lightning and take him down!!!!!!!!"

Wait theres even more kotor fanidiosism i sense in him.

Bastilas battle meditation > sidious BM

And

Its an OLD sith trick so there fore revan knows everything sidious knows


This isnt fanboyism folks.... This is super fanboyism

He even tried ranting revan beats anakin rots in a saber duel and darth bandon beating maul but the end result is advent and gideon tearing his ass to bits

It seems that you and I will be flying around in circles until the end of time. You say shit like this in every thread pertaining to a KotOR-era character; I'm not the only one who's noticed it -- everyone on these forums have. The only one here with a bias problem is you. Period.



Correct. And there are those among that 'some' (yes, I noticed the semantic) who would shit on either of the previous five.



No one said you didn't. I said that you refuse to accept the fact that the PT simply yielded more powerful individuals, not just superior technology; we've just proven you can't even type the damn sentence out. You completely ignored it.



Apparently I do. And I will. Every single time. In fact, I might even make a post regarding PT dominance to post on every KotOR-based thread, even if it has nothing to do with comparisons of power until you stop the constant fellating.



Wrong; they'd crush him.



Lol. I did. I was there. You made with the fellating. Again.



This is precisely the point. Your point of view is constructed by bias. You refuse to accept facts for what they are, and they manifest themselves in your (so-called) arguments. I couldn't care less if you personally clung to the delusion that Darth Revan is the uber-God of the universe, but when you constantly indulge yourselves on these threads with such thoughts, it gets old.



'Get some life'?

Let's tie our shoelaces before we trip on them, shall we? Just because I'm younger than you (and still maintain a healthy and active social life) and still kick your ass when it comes to logic, doesn't mean I'm in need of a life. If anything, you need it more than anyone. Older and more educated, but still inferior?

Must suck.



Pull your head out of your ass and wipe the shit from your eyes. No one ever said he wouldn't use the strategy. I said that -- under different circumstances against a different foe -- that there is no guarentee it would yield any success.



Are you high? Are you seriously implying that Revan has no flawed beliefs? And you say you're not a fanboy? Rofl. The fact that he joined the dark side at all makes it plain that he has some weakness to him; it's the way of the fearful, the angered, the greedy, or the delusional.







Which means what? Romantic love is suddenly the only weakness that Sidious can exploit? What a (dangerously un)stable claim to make (jackass).



According to whom? You? Not exactly 'Source of the Year', man.



...This sentence doesn't make any sense. But I'm not fluent in Jackass.



I'm going to really, really enjoy the following:



Shitty Logic, Strike One!

The 'insignificant rebellion' was being commanded by Admiral Ackbar a nearly unparalleled tactical genius. The 'insignificant rebellion' had access to schematics and the location of the second Death Star. The 'insignificant rebellion' walked into a ****ing trap.

Did you miss Return of the Jedi completely? You'd have to -- seriously -- be a retarded child or asleep the whole time to completely miss the point.

The Empire's fleet present at Endor never attempted to actively engage the Rebels. Admiral Piett himself instructs his crew aboard the Super Star Destroyer Executor to "hold position" and that the fleet was "not going to engage". There orders were to "keep them from escaping". That's all.



Shitty Logic, Strike Two!

a.) Zaarin. Was. Dead. After a reasonable campaign, Thrawn and Darth Vader managed to destroy the former Grand Admiral Zaarin and crush his renegade fleet prior to Return of the Jedi.

b.) Immediately afterwards, Thrawn was secretly promoted to Grand Admiral and sent into the Unknown Regions, mapping it out, secretly preparing for the Yuuzhan Vong invasion as per Sidious's orders.



Oh, how cute. The thing is:

a.) The Empire? They're not the Mandalorians.

b.) The Empire? They're larger, better equipped, and more intelligent than the Mandalorians.



That's cute. Except Revan already joined the Dark Side, so your point is moot. Nevermind that Luke later submitted himself to Emperor Palpatine and was manipulated the entire time. Once again, you've managed to prove absolutely nothing.



Not as wise? One could argue that Yoda, Mace, and Obi-Wan -- for wise people -- were completely blind. Afterall, they failed to sense the rise of the Sith. Yoda and Mace both lament on this at different points during the Clone Wars. Dooku exposed Sidious to Obi-Wan on Sidious's orders and they still didn't even come close 'til the very end.

The point? Even 'wise' and 'smart' people make mistakes. Why are Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Mace suddenly wiser than Dooku and Vader if I might ask? Because they didn't join the dark side? Damn. Looks like Revan falls back into that category.



The point you're making is completely irrelevant.



And, no matter what, Revan is curbstomped.

Shitty Logic, Strike Three. You're out, mate.

Originally posted by Gideon
Shitty Logic, Strike Two!

a.) Zaarin. Was. Dead. After a reasonable campaign, Thrawn and Darth Vader managed to destroy the former Grand Admiral Zaarin and crush his renegade fleet prior to Return of the Jedi.

b.) Immediately afterwards, Thrawn was secretly promoted to Grand Admiral and sent into the Unknown Regions, mapping it out, secretly preparing for the Yuuzhan Vong invasion as per Sidious's orders.


Maybe I misunderstood Something Gideon but wasn't Thrawn already a Grand Admiral when Zaarins campagne started and hadn't he already been to the Unknown regions at that point???

And didn't Thrawn utterly crush Zaarin???

ok have any of u plad kotor 1 or 2 than if u have than u shod know that revan is a brelleon sratagest and he chould wp up another mas sadow ganer at or + if he ad oto trgating laer canons on all hes capatel ships than the sith flite wood win.... big time

and revan can put sith assasnens on bord ther star desrtoiers and mabe just tak over the ships by making the empereils sukuraty aganst tham

Thrawn couldn't officially be made a Grand Admiral because there were already twelve at one given time. He was secretly promoted, but officially replaced Zaarin.



Uh. No. Not even close.



The Empire > Revan's armada. They've got stronger ships and better technology. The Empire fields at least thirteen strategists who are on par with Revan, two of them (Zaarin and Thrawn) being his superiors.

They manhandle him. Effortlessly.

I wasn't aware that Thrawn was sent into the unknown regions to prepare for the Vong Invasion. I didn't even know Sidious knew about the Vong. HOwever, I have made the point early on in the year that it would have been better to keep the empire, because the Vong wouldn't stand a chance. This turned out to be a very heated debate. Face dictatorship and virtually no freedom and yet be safe vs. destroy the dictatorship and brace the galaxy for extinction.

Sorry. I just saw it now and I simply had to answer that. It's so...omg.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
That I can agree with but only in a case when The Empire finds out that it is a trap and they know that where the MSG is planted.


Dude. The Imperial fleet doesn't even fit into a freaking star system. What the hell do you think the MSG would do against them ? Even if they run into a similar trap compared to that Revan had prepared on Malachor for the Mandalorians - that would only destroy a very small fraction of the Imperial fleet.

And the more likely scenario would be that the Empire would simply destroy the planet with the trap using the Death Star. I'd love to see Revan without his mask, standing on the window of his flagship and go "WTF ?!?"



*looks at the thread topic*
I wonder why there is any need to manipulate Revan or exploit his weaknesses. Sidious has a military force under his command that dwarfs Revan's forces. Hell. A single Star Destroyer even without any sort of special tactics would most likely curpstomb a nice part of Revan's forces - superior shielding, far superior firepower. If you think about the fact that some prior versions of Super Star Destroyers were said to be able to take it up with 1,000 frigates of their time I don't think that 4,000 year old technology has much of a chance against them.



Considering the fact that Ackbar managed to destroy almost all Yuuzhan Vong forces in a single movement...nope. I guess Revan doesn't match that. And even if you'd put Revan on one level with Admiral Ackbar - Thrawn would still be his superior, so would Zarin and aside of that the Empire has a damn lot of other tacticians who aren't bad (including Vader and Sidious himself).



Huh ? You are aware of the fact that Sidious (through Xizor) did practically send the Rebellion the plans and location of the second Death Star ? Because he wanted to crush them in a single move - and even orchestrate that as a nice demonstration of the power of his new battle station. Notice how the amassed fire of the entire Rebel fleet was needed to destroy the Executor (and that took quite a long time) without the Executor and the other ISD's even participating in the battle. Really. I could argue that Revan's complete fleet could fire days onto the Executor without even damaging the ship.



Nope. Only the Death Star was used to fire at the Rebels capital ships. Aside of that the Empire did only use starfighters. The Stardestroyers and the Executor didn't fire a single shot. Lando even asks himself what the capital ships are waiting for as they would be able to easily destroy the Rebel fleet. And that was - once again - only a tiny fraction of the Empire's military forces.



Vader could have stopped the Rebels from infiltrating Endor. He didn't because his son happened to be with them. Otherwise the shield generator on the planet would never have been destroyed. And hadn't Vader suddenly developed feelings for his son, the Emperor would have survived. So urm...unless Revan now is another child of Darth Vader aka Anakin Skywalker I don't see something similar happening.



ROFL @ "turn" into the Empire's favor.

I don't think you have even the slightest idea about the forces the Empire has. Just for a damn comparison. The capital ships of the Republic in Revan's time roughly have the size and weapons of the Blockade Runner that is attacked in the opening sequence of ANH. The ultimate ship of Revan's time is the Leviathan (and he has just one of those) - a ship that roughly has 50 % of the size of a normal ISD and about 5 % the firepower of an ISD (if even that). The Empire has more than 25,000 Star Destroyers.

Now the regular battle group of the Imperial Navy consists of 6 Star Destroyers and 400 (!) addional capital ships. Those 400 ships (with are midiocre in comparison to an ISD) are still superior to the ships Revan has. That gives the Empire roughly 1.7 million ships that a superior to the what...hundrets ? A few thousand ? Ships that Revan's forces consist of. Troops ? Each ISD carries 9.600 Stormtroopers. That is - just on those ships - a total number of 240 million soldiers. Just for comparison: The US Army, which is the most powerful military force on our planet, consists of less than 500.000 regular soldiers.



For Revan's forces ? It is damn invincible for them. The Mandalorians took a nice amount of the troops under Revan's command out and this while being outnumbered 10 on 1 in certain situations (Battle of Dxun for example). The Republic forces that Revan went up against outnumbered Revan's forces 2 to 1 (as he had 1/3 of their former troops under his control). The Empire outnumberes Revans forces in a magnitude that is at least 1 to 1000 (or even higher numbers). Revan would get curbstomped.



Urm. They knew that the Sith were back since the time of TPM. They had more than a decade to find Sidious and still didn't manage it. Since AotC they knew that a Sith Lord infiltrated the Republic. Three years and they still didn't find him. I'd say that this was more due to Sidious skill with the force and his manipulations than anything else.



LMAO. Revan is totally outnumbered by a military force commanded by superior tacticians. He has superweapons ? He has one MSG and that's it. I could even argue that thing wouldn't do much against a Star Destroyers as those ships have been shown to easily withstand several million G and even if it does destroy them - that would again just take out a ridiculous small fraction of the Imperial Navy and after that Revan would get owned badly.

Thank you, Nai. Though I would offer one addendum: given the numbers provided by the dozens of sourcebooks and other material, it has been suggested that Gilad Pellaeon's reference of "twenty-five-thousand Star Destroyers" is in fact, only referring to the Imperial-classes. This is excluding the shitload of other classes.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I wasn't aware that Thrawn was sent into the unknown regions to prepare for the Vong Invasion. I didn't even know Sidious knew about the Vong. HOwever, I have made the point early on in the year that it would have been better to keep the empire, because the Vong wouldn't stand a chance. This turned out to be a very heated debate. Face dictatorship and virtually no freedom and yet be safe vs. destroy the dictatorship and brace the galaxy for extinction.

Nice one nai, theres also sidious galaxy wide battle meditation other than brilliant tacticians and superior fire power.

I think its even safe to assume a venator class star destroyer is enough to defeat 2-3 sith warships.

Well the leviathan is only 600 metres long, imperial star destroyes are 2-3 times the size of that and carry tons of superior fire power,

I think the assertion that legend tried to make of revans fleet doing well or prehaps "defeat" the empire is unsupported.

Again thats very nice ownage nai

Originally posted by Borbarad
.The capital ships of the Republic in Revan's time roughly have the size and weapons of the Blockade Runner that is attacked in the opening sequence of ANH. The ultimate ship of Revan's time is the Leviathan (and he has just one of those.)

Nicely put but wasn't the other sith interdictor ships the same class as the Leviathan? Meaning it would have the same fire power of it. And does anyone know if there is any info about the Ravager before it crashed on Malachor. I would say that it would be their ssd but it didnt seem to have the massive size difference between it and ships like the leviathan as the executor had compared to an sd. But either way Revan's forces are screwed.

The ravager is roughly the same size as an imperial class star destroyer, and throughout the kotor era we have only seen the ravager, no other similar clases

Are you guys forgetting Revans best advantage. He has thousands of dark jedi in his army, plus the powerful star forge droids (if those droids can take down jedi they can each kill 100 of those stupid storm troopers lol). Whoever said the empire had a larger force? Revan had the Star Forge so that means he'll have more ships. Also Revan is a brilliant military leader.

Originally posted by Sith Dude
Are you guys forgetting Revans best advantage. He has thousands of dark jedi in his army, plus the powerful star forge droids (if those droids can take down jedi they can each kill 100 of those stupid storm troopers lol). Whoever said the empire had a larger force? Revan had the Star Forge so that means he'll have more ships. Also Revan is a brilliant military leader.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the imperial army is far larger than revans, the mere storm troopers are in the billions as opposed to the thousands revan has.

And the technology revan posess is shit compared to the empire considering the 4000 year old gap. The greatest shit of revans army would be the leviathen, and it is only 600 metres long, we have a venator star destroyer, arguebly the weakest SD class in the empire and that ship alone has superior fire power, shielding etc and much larger and massive than all of revans ships.

And we have thrawn and zaarin whom are better tacticians that revan and along with that sidious and vader whom arent bad at tactics.

We also have the death start to blow up your precious star forge, right. According to canon, the SF gets destroyed

Looks like someone hasn't been reading the topic...

1) He has thousands of Dark Jedi in his army. Yet none of them are really worthy of recognition outside of Revan, Malak, and Bandon. If they attempt to take part in a space battle, then these "thousands of Dark Jedi" are overwhelmed by sheer numbers. If they take part in a land battle...Well, let's just say that the ground isn't a good place to attempt fighting a Star Destroyer in the sky. Not to mention that the Empire isn't exactly short on Dark Jedi. And most of them are pretty decent quality Force Users, as compared to the nobodies we see in KOTOR.

2) Again, SF droids aren't that useful for anything but land combat. Even assuming that they are used, being able to kill Jedi (I don't recall them doing so, but I'll wait for an example before saying otherwise), that doesn't specifically mean they can kill stormtroopers. Jedi and regular soldiers fight in very different styles. Taking down a single Jedi with a lightsaber is different than facing down concentrated fire from dozens of troops.

3) The Empire clearly has a larger force. Revan's military wasn't able to overpower the severely weakened Republic (Y'know, the one that just went through a war with Exar Kun and a war with the Mandalorians before Revan took 1/3 of its forces and turned on it). The Galactic Empire, at the least, has 25,000 Star Destroyers, which outmatch even Revan's Leviathan models by a vast margin. And you really don't want to get the Executor or Eclipse Dreadnaughts involved in this.

4) This has already been addressed several times. Yes, Revan is a brilliant military leader. But the empire has roughly a dozen strategists/tacticians on Revan's level, as well as two who are superior to him.

And I'll be honest, since Palpatine or Vader could manhandle any of Revan's Sith forces, if it comes down to the Empire possibly losing a ground campaign -- which is supremely unlikely -- Palpatine will just bombard it from orbit.

I can't really see the Empire losing a ground campaign though. I mean, they just have so much in terms of sheer manpower that I can't see them being overpowered by Revan's forces if they go all out.

Originally posted by Gideon
And I'll be honest, since Palpatine or Vader could manhandle any of Revan's Sith forces, if it comes down to the Empire possibly losing a ground campaign -- which is supremely unlikely -- Palpatine will just bombard it from orbit. Tactically or literally vader and sidious killing ground troops?

Originally posted by Gideon
Thrawn couldn't officially be made a Grand Admiral because there were already twelve at one given time. He was secretly promoted, but officially replaced Zaarin.

thats what I thought

Uh. No. Not even close.

But in the first battle Zaarin was fleeing when Thrawn arrived and at that point Vader had already disabled his fighter Support.

In his campaign he stalemated Thrawn thats correct but he lost a increasing number of ships during so didn't he???

In the last battle Zaarin got away but from my point of view mostly because Thrawns ships didn't arrive and because Thrawn had planned it so that the corvette would kill Zaarin

(It's been a long time since I last read this)

And that would be the logical reason for his departure, wouldn't you think? He failed to capture Emperor Palpatine and was facing the galaxy's most skilled fighter pilot/Dark Lord of the Sith as well as a fellow genius who has vastly superior resources to call upon.



And, again, what's your point? It was the Empire vs. Zaarin's forces. Hardly an equitable match. In fact, the scale of resources and ships at Thrawn's command vastly -- you'd pretty much have to invent new numbers to calculate it -- outstrips Zaarin's own. Thrawn was working with relatively unlimited resources; Zaarin wasn't.



Zaarin escaped because Thrawn lacked the decisive ability to best him in combat, but yes, you're correct: Thrawn did arrange for Zaarin's death (which we can attribute this to Zaarin's notorious technophilia). However, using those sketchy circumstances to declare superiority would be fallacious. Wedge Antilles foiled Thrawn during once and decisively. Is he the superior tactition? No.

Originally posted by Gideon
And that would be the logical reason for his departure, wouldn't you think? He failed to capture Emperor Palpatine and was facing the galaxy's most skilled fighter pilot/Dark Lord of the Sith as well as a fellow genius who has vastly superior resources to call upon.



And, again, what's your point? It was the Empire vs. Zaarin's forces. Hardly an equitable match. In fact, the scale of resources and ships at Thrawn's command vastly -- you'd pretty much have to invent new numbers to calculate it -- outstrips Zaarin's own. Thrawn was working with relatively unlimited resources; Zaarin wasn't.



Zaarin escaped because Thrawn lacked the decisive ability to best him in combat, but yes, you're correct: Thrawn did arrange for Zaarin's death (which we can attribute this to Zaarin's notorious technophilia). However, using those sketchy circumstances to declare superiority would be fallacious. Wedge Antilles foiled Thrawn during once and decisively. Is he the superior tactition? No.

I isn't trying to prove anything just wanted to get a few facts clear.

the technology of ESB is way more advanced then KOTOR which already gives the advantage to the imperial armada, not to mention the fact that the death star would demolish the star forge and any ships that happen to be in the line of fire.