Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Which higher power would win in this fight for realities?

LT 10/10

Lt easily

I thought the Monitor was suppost to be like the DCU's highest power next to the presence? And only equaled by the anti-monitor. Was i wrong?

Originally posted by Entity
I thought the Monitor was suppost to be like the DCU's highest power next to the presence? And only equaled by the anti-monitor. Was i wrong? DC's highest powers would be beings like Ion, Spectre, Parallax, Mxy, etc.....

Monitor is powerful, but he is not at the top of the food chain...

Originally posted by Galan777
DC's highest powers would be beings like Ion, Spectre, Parallax, Mxy, etc.....

Monitor is powerful, but he is not at the top of the food chain...
Monitor is far below from the crisis Anti-Monitor at the begining they were equal until Anti-Monitor got stronger.

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
monitor is far below from th crisis Anti-Monitor at the begining they were equal until Anti-Monitor got stronger. yep... yes

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
monitor is far below from th crisis Anti-Monitor at the begining they were equal until Anti-Monitor got stronger.

kinda as AM started to destroy the postive matte runiverses one by one monitor started to get weaker

at the beginning when the majority of universes were postive matter

Monitor was > M

Also People like the fates, Lucifer, Michael, the godwave , the source , etc etc


especially the fates ince they are th eone swho basically crete the destinys "of all DC characters

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
Monitor is far below from the crisis Anti-Monitor at the begining they were equal until Anti-Monitor got stronger.

Oh, OK my bad. So lets change it to LT vs. The ANTI-Monitor.

And are Ion and Parallax seriously even more powerful than the Monitor???
Holy SHIT!!! I knew Kyle was a awsome badass now but i had NO IDEA he was that badass. Not evough to take on the Monitor. You gotta be screwing with me right?

Originally posted by Entity
Oh, OK my bad. So lets change it to LT vs. The ANTI-Monitor.

And are Ion and Parallax seriously even more powerful than the Monitor???
Holy SHIT!!! I knew Kyle was a awsome badass now but i had NO IDEA he was that badass. Not evough to take on the Monitor. You gotta be screwing with me right? LT is still FAR above AM

and yes Ion/Parallax are more powerful then AM

Originally posted by Galan777
LT is still FAR above AM

and yes Ion/Parallax are more powerful then AM

and what are you basing that on.

curious...

Originally posted by rotiart
and what are you basing that on.

curious... the fact that Parallax wiped out EVERYTHING, and i hope to god you know that Ion is above parallax

Originally posted by Galan777
the fact that Parallax wiped out EVERYTHING, and i hope to god you know that Ion is above parallax

I don't know about that Parralax erased everything

Spectre said Ion "could" rewrite the "universe" if he wanted to.

Originally posted by Galan777
the fact that Parallax wiped out EVERYTHING, and i hope to god you know that Ion is above parallax

Yea i knew that
Classic Ion= Parallax+Gardians Life Power+Oblivian Force
Current Ion= Parallax+Starheart+Oblivian Force(i think)

Im not sure about the oblivian force this time, but considering that it came from Kyle to begin with i would think it is still part of him.

And Parallax wiped out everything from one time line the Anti-Monitor was wiping out INFINITE reallities.

I'm not saying your wrong just trying to understand better. Please correct my mistakes to show me my misunderstandings

My thinking is that Ion and Parallax were shown (at least to me) to be universal... where as the Antimonitor was shown (at least to me) to be multiversal...

He was destroying many universes... not just one...

Also Anti- Monitor isn't someone to laugh at in Crsis he destroyed countless universe and was about to destroy the rets of the multiverse and go to the dawn of time an dbe the hand that ceate sall life making instead of an Postive matter multiverse an anti matter multiverse.

Also to get to the daw of time he had to break through the wall of Creation which is also an Impressive feat.

DC highest powered people are Spectre, Lucifer, God, Darkseid, Mxy.
LT wouldn't even care about monitor, just erase him from existence with a single thought (or does he even need a whole thought for that )

Originally posted by Rewmac
DC highest powered people are Spectre, Lucifer, God, Darkseid, Mxy.
LT wouldn't even care about monitor, just erase him from existence with a single thought (or does he even need a whole thought for that )



Anti Monitor 1000000000000000000000*>Darkseid

AM destroyed countless universes

Darkseid even said AM could destroy his demension

so please edit your post and remove Darkseid

Who is talking about a shit avatar of him??? I mean Darkseid. And don't tell what to edit and do...

Originally posted by Rewmac
Who is talking about a shit avatar of him??? I mean Darkseid. And don't tell what to edit and do...

This was Pre Crisis Darkseid/ Full Power/ Non Avatr Darkseid my friend

let me quote what He said

Crisis on Infinite earths tpb page 220 pannel 3

" That Monitor indeed posesses the power to destroy even harsh Apokolips"
He even said that he was going to wait till am was weakened to attack

It was stated a million times that the Crisis didn't effect Darkseid.

And in my opinion the biggest load of shit was IC. PIS on the GL Coprs, too good showing on Supes should I continue??

Darkseid was waiting of course...Why???? Because Superman had to save the day...

Darthgoober proved that all those Universes AM absorbed were just a piece of ONE Universe.

In fact he proved that AM needed to absorb those last 5 or 10 Universes in order to be equal to just One Eternity.

Originally posted by Rewmac
It was stated a million times that the Crisis didn't effect Darkseid.

And in my opinion the biggest load of shit was IC. PIS on the GL Coprs, too good showing on Supes should I continue??

Darth also proved the incredible PIS ending, involving the Spectre.

Where Spectre needed some magicians or something to weaken AM.

I'm not too sure on the details, but Darth know the rest.

In any case LT erases both the Monitor and AM at the same time.

Comic is sometimes more bussiness and contracts then showing the true power of the characters and entertain.

Stories sell... not history...

Thats why whenever you watch a movie... it doesn't say.. these are the facts of this story... It'll say.. This movie is based upon... because they butcher the facts so bad... they make a white guy black... just to keep certain demographics happy.

Comics let you get away from the world. Course... you could always watch tv shows like cops... where the takedowns are real... even if the planting of the evidence is a bit obvious.

I was watching cops where they said they had been chasing a black guy wearing a green shirt today... course they catch the guy... he's black.. wearing a white shirt... cops say it must be him, guys like its not me.. cops like look at his dirty hands he must've got it from jumping the fence.. course i was thinking maybe you did it when you shoved him into the ground...

The biggest fact that makes me think the black guy was innocent? Cops said they had been chasing him for blocks. Guys in jeans, hairs clean, not even disheveled... and he's not even sweating..

heh.. that cop was selling a story. bend the facts a little. and you get stuff that sells.

sorry ran off on a tangent... and just kept going.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Darth also proved the incredible PIS ending, involving the Spectre.

Where Spectre needed some magicians or something to weaken AM.

I'm not too sure on the details, but Darth know the rest.

I bet your not to sure on the details cause you've never read it huh


the orginal reality was a Multiverse
Multi meaning many

it says so In Infinite Crisis

http://img378.imageshack.us/my.php?image=scan00154ka.jpg

AM destroyed the majority of these by the time of the infamous AM vs Spectre fight their where only four left

Earth S, Earth 1, Earth 2, Earth 4


In the scuffle between spectre and AM evrything that was left was destroyed.

There was nothing more

Then Spectre created a new mulitverse ( which everyone thoguht at first was only a single universe)

consisting of the CSA universe , DCU proper , and Wildstorm

Originally posted by rotiart
sorry ran off on a tangent... and just kept going.

Are you kidding, that was genius.


I loved it, rot still impressing.

Originally posted by Devil Lance
I bet your not to sure on the details cause you've never read it huh

Darth will take care if this one, I don't have the details so I'm not going to swim here.

But Darth conclusively proved with the issues themselves that the prior DC Multi-verse was a sum of many weaker Universes.

Meaning only by adding ALL of the Universes together could you get ONE full Universe.

This is so unevenly-matched. i'd think it was a spite thread, but Entity doesn't do stuff like that.

LT wins.

I think if he had chosen Eternity... the fight would be more evenly matched... someone on the universal... to maybe slightly above universal level... but to chose the absolute master of our multiverse... :O

Originally posted by rotiart
My thinking is that Ion and Parallax were shown (at least to me) to be universal... where as the Antimonitor was shown (at least to me) to be multiversal...

He was destroying many universes... not just one...
Don't forget that Parallax wanted to create other Universes as well but he was stopped by Spectre and the others

Originally posted by Mr Master
Darthgoober proved that all those Universes AM absorbed were just a piece of ONE Universe.

In fact he proved that AM needed to absorb those last 5 or 10 Universes in order to be equal to just One Eternity. Not true. The AntiMatter Universe was wholly seperate from the matter multiverse, as a Universe unto itself. He almost had the power of the entire anti-matter universe, as well as all the matter universes. I already covered such in the thread way back.

For the record, I'm with LT though.

Ok I found it.


This is Darthgoober's great findings on the Anti-Monitor issue.


PART ONE


Ok, I've been doing some research into the whole COIE ordeal, and I've come to the conclusion that there's NO WAY, AM could win this fight. You see, as it turns out AM DIDN'T have the power of a near multi-verse. What he had was the power of a SINGLE large universe. Need proof? OK take a look...

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/1696/crisis715vo9.th.jpg

See, when one of the positive matter universes were destroyed, the anti matter universe expanded. AM didn't get all the power of the destroyed universe, his own universes power just increased. And that's what he got, the power of the Anti Matter Universe. He even says it himself, check it out...

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/9558/824nt5.th.jpg

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/1513/825ch8.th.jpg

So how much power did he get when he absorbed his universe? Well, luckily enough, that's covered earlier in the same issue...

http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/7577/815sf3.th.jpg

So he has the power of 53 million worlds, with more that 2 million of them containing life. Now I'm pretty sure that Marvel has never released an exact number on the population of the multi-verse, but given that there's an infinite number of universes within it, I feel safe in saying that there are more worlds(inhabited, and uninhabited) within Marvel's multi-verse, than there is within the anti matter universe. And what does that mean? Well that means that ME has MORE power to draw from, and is therefore more powerful.

(Now to all of those that are arguing for AM absorbing Multi Eternity, I would just like to point out that he NEVER demonstrated the ability to absorb a standard universe, only an anti matter universe. Matter and anti matter cancel each other out, so if he HAD tried to absorb one of the standard universes, it would have probably destroyed him. So he WON'T be absorbing any part of ME.)

Now as for the big show down at the dawn of time, I want you to take a look at something...

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/7272/crisis1023fd0.th.jpg

Well look what AM says in the first and second panels. He used his energy to breach the Wall of Creation, and NEEDED the life energy of DC's heroes to complete the next step. So apparently, the power he absorbed, wasn't even enough to complete his plan. So even if AM got the chance to go back in time to try to destroy ME, he wouldn't have the power to do it when he got there.

Now for those of you who are bound to point out that it took the Spectre to stop AM, well I have come up with 2 possible answers as to why that was necessary.

1. At the time, the Spectre simply wasn't as powerful at the time as he is now.
2. (And this is the one I believe) It was the single BIGGEST PIS showing in comic book history. Need proof of that? Well look...

http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/8499/crisis1025vg7.th.jpg

Now think about that. The Spectre is backed by God, but for some reason he needs the power of some sorcerers to turn the tide? The way I figure it, DC needed someone that was more powerful than all the heroes put together for the big climactic showdown.But Kismet(DC's Eternity) hadn't been introduced yet. So who did DC have that fit that description? Spectre.

Looking at all this, I think it's safe to say, that Multi-Eternity wins this fight without to much trouble.

And this is the continuation.



PART TWO


Second of all, everyone who's a big DC fan, should get ready to HATE me(if you don't already), because I've discovered something that's going to PISS you off. However it will also explain how the Anti Matter Universe, was able to expand and become more powerful, while retaining it's original size(which I already covered in my last post). Just remember, I didn't come up with this stuff, I'm only pointing it out.

Now we'll start with the beginnings of the DC Multiverse(I've included the first two pages of it's origin for anybody who doesn't know it, but the important stuff doesn't start until the third scan)...

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/1069/crisis707ks6.jpg
http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/7707/crisis708ye4.jpg

This one's a little more important, which is why you get a thumbnail for it(even though I already posted it)...

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/5586/crisis709qz3.th.jpg

Now the reason I say that the third scan is more important, is because it shows the universes overlapping to a degree, without actually interacting. Why you ask? Because the universes that made up the DC multi-verse, weren't laid out side by side, they were kind of stacked within the same space, and were separated by vibrational wavelengths that kept them from actually interacting with each other. This is first mentioned on the first page of the first book...

http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/8470/page01uy9.th.jpg

See at the bottom it says that the universes were vibrating and replicating. Now I would also like to bring your attention to the part(in the same narration box), that says "what should have been one became many", because that's about to be important.

So what does all this talk about the universe fracturing and the resulting universes being separated by vibrations have to do with anything? Well I'll get to that after I show you these scans, which point out something important about the multi-verses origin...

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/4880/page12qg5.th.jpg

This is from the first book. Look at what it says in the upper right hand panel. "The universe once divided into many parts...Each one different, independent, yet somehow WEAKER than the whole". What does this mean exactly? Well to put it bluntly, it means that even though DC at the time was a multiverse, it was a weak multiverse that only contained as much power as a single universe. And before anyone tries to call BS on the fact, here's the Monitor saying the same thing in the forth book...

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/6759/crisis0419su7.th.jpg

"The universe was split apart at the dawn of time...each part WEAKER than the whole it was meant to be". He also says that the universes are separated by by vibrations and time.



When all of this is taken into account, here are my theories on the matter...

About AM's power increasing with the destruction of the positive matter universes... Well his universe obviously didn't grow outward and actually become larger(because of the dimensions given for it and because of the impossibility of an infinite number of universes being placed side by side). It would be more accurate to say that it grew in DENSITY(it's the best word I could think of to describe it). It became more real, and more like the ORIGINAL universe in overall power.

This also means(and THIS is what's really going to piss some people off), that even at the height of his power, AM wasn't even as powerful as a SINGLE intact universe(because there were still 5 universes left out to complete the whole). So not only could he not take Multi Eternity, he probably couldn't take the universal aspect of Eternity either. His power falls just shy(5 mini universes to be exact).


Before everyone starts attacking me as a "DC hater", let me just say that I've spent the past three days going over all this stuff, but there IS a chance I missed something. So if anyone has any evidence which goes against all this, feel free to bring it to the table, and I'll address it. Also, I have no idea, on how powerful DC's universe is NOW. All this stuff relates only to the power of DC during COIE. I'm not saying that Marvel's universe is STILL more powerful.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Darth also proved the incredible PIS ending, involving the Spectre.

Where Spectre needed some magicians or something to weaken AM.

I'm not too sure on the details, but Darth know the rest. It was PIS, Spectre required the power from a handful of Magicians to beat AM............ rediculous:

http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/4163/vsantimoniterfc5.jpg
http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/8059/vsantimoniter2gt1.jpg
http://img289.imageshack.us/img289/4948/vsantimoniter3gx0.jpg

Originally posted by Galan777
It was PIS, Spectre required the power from a handful of Magicians to beat AM............ rediculous:

http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/4163/vsantimoniterfc5.jpg
http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/8059/vsantimoniter2gt1.jpg
http://img289.imageshack.us/img289/4948/vsantimoniter3gx0.jpg



not really pis if you think about it

Spectre needed The pwoer of the magic people (which was his own power by the way since Spectre IS magic which was established in DOV) ( which included a 5-d imp mind you) to push AM back

so he could conserve his own power that he needed to "create" a new multiverse which is the one we had before Infinite crisis


So the only reason spectre need those extra powers was so he could conserve his own powers for when he need to create the n w multiverse.

Originally posted by Devil Lance
So the only reason spectre need those extra powers was so he could conserve his own powers for when he need to create the n w multiverse.

I guess that's the PIS in the story then.

He needs to conserve his energy (enough to create a Multi-verse) yet he can't take a Universal threat on his own.


I don't know if you paid attention to Goober's findings but, AM didn't even have the power of ONE Universe, he was 4 Universes shy from attaining Eternity (single Universe) status.

this from a REMARKABLY (though unofficial) informed website dedicated to hypertime:

Here's what we know about the Crisis, step by step:

Before the Crisis, an infinite number of worlds existed in one "central" DCU timeline.
The Anti-Monitor sought to destroy this Multiverse with an anti-matter wave.
The universes within this Multiverse that were not destroyed outright were merged to become ONE SINGLE UNIVERSE again.
Shortly after the Crisis, DCU history was retroactively altered so that there was NEVER a Multiverse.
The last point seems to contradict what I said earlier about the Linear Men having record of the Crisis, but not really. It's similar to have a sentence written on a piece of paper, and taking a photograph of that piece of paper. If you erase the sentence, it's the same as it never having been there. But you still have the photograph, which contradicts the physical evidence of the blank page. The records at Vanishing Point (the HQ of the Linear Men) show a crisis in which 10 billion years of infinite histories were condensed into ONE history, but this contradicts 10 billion years of actual history that NEVER had a Multiverse. So, even though the Multiverse NEVER existed, it DID exist. If this seems paradoxical, don't worry, it's SUPPOSED to be. I don't believe the pre-Crisis Multiverse is *technically* reachable through Hypertime.

The Crisis DID effectively wipe out the Multiverse contained within the previous 50 years' worth of DC Comics stories. BUT, keeping in mind that there are an infinite number of timelines out there, there are undoubtedly Hypertimelines where the Crisis did not happen and the Multiverse (similar to the one we used to read about) lives on. And all of those pre-Crisis-type worlds ARE accessible to modern DCU characters.

hypertime>multiverse? who knows, but again, just because dc's cosmology is different from marvel's does not necessarily mean we can say marvel's cosmics are "greater". marvel seems to have an infinite amount of lakes, while dc has one infinitely large ocean with hypertime running like an infinite current through the middle of it.

darth was right -- the ONE universe DID get split into myriad planes, but even since then dcu cosmology has been altered.

dc is HARD to figure out . . .

Originally posted by Mr Master
I don't know if you paid attention to Goober's findings but, AM didn't even have the power of ONE Universe, he was 4 Universes shy from attaining Eternity (single Universe) status.
Huzzah?

Originally posted by leonidas
just because dc's cosmology is different from marvel's does not necessarily mean we can say marvel's cosmics are "greater". marvel seems to have an infinite amount of lakes, while dc has one infinitely large ocean with hypertime running like an infinite current through the middle of it.

That's a pretty inaccurate description or comparison of both Realities.

If DC is one Infinite Ocean, then Marvel is an Infinite number of Oceans and more.

And I'm being nice by saying that, cause literally,

DC is ONE Infinite Universe.

Marvel has an Omni-verse, which is an Infinite number of Multi-verses, and every Multi-verse is Infinite and every Universe with in every Multi-verse is Infinite aswell.

Originally posted by Mr Master
That's a pretty inaccurate description or comparison of both Realities.

If DC is one Infinite Ocean, then Marvel is an Infinite number of Oceans and more.

And I'm being nice by saying that, cause literally,

DC is ONE Infinite Universe.

Marvel has an Omni-verse, which is an Infinite number of Multi-verses, and every Multi-verse is Infinite and every Universe with in every Multi-verse is Infinite aswell. Not true. DC is far more than one universe.

Originally posted by Mr Master
That's a pretty inaccurate description or comparison of both Realities.

If DC is one Infinite Ocean, then Marvel is an Infinite number of Oceans and more.

And I'm being nice by saying that, cause literally,

DC is ONE Infinite Universe.

Marvel has an Omni-verse, which is an Infinite number of Multi-verses, and every Multi-verse is Infinite and every Universe with in every Multi-verse is Infinite aswell. This raises a grand question is multiple Infinites greater than one.

And by the Multiverses and Universes can't be infinite because that would mean that there is no end for them but in fact there has to be otherwise there could never be anything greater than it.

Originally posted by Juntai
Not true. DC is far more than one universe.

I have no problem believing you once you produce evidence.

Cause that's what I got from COIE.


Those Elseworlds Realities don't exist, so I'm figuring that's not the strength of your argument.

Originally posted by Newjak
This raises a grand question is multiple Infinites greater than one.

In Marvel?

Yes.


This is how Marvel, the company that creates these characters measures INFINITY
http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/8929/infipo9.th.jpg

http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/958/infi2lt7.th.jpg

http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/1130/infi3rl5.th.jpg



Originally posted by Newjak
And by the Multiverses and Universes can't be infinite because that would mean that there is no end for them but in fact there has to be otherwise there could never be anything greater than it.

An INFINITE Multi-verse with INFINITE Universes.

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/7402/multi13vs.th.jpg

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/7421/multieternity16do.th.jpg



The Omni-verse, this is how it looks from the OUTSIDE:


When Warlock first exited the Multi-verse, he entered a place called the Cosmic Vortex.

http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/3198/adamgoesbtwnuniverses15yh.th.jpg


In it, an INFINITE number of MULTI-VERSES are spiralling upward into an INFINITY beyond INFINITY

http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/7376/adamgoesbtwnuniverses26zw.th.jpg



And this is how it looks from the INSIDE:

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/9923/omni2cn6.th.jpg
http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/211/omni3uj8.th.jpg


I wont debate the On Panel evidence, whoever can't digest this, write a letter to Marvel and let your voice be heard.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I have no problem believing you once you produce evidence.

Cause that's what I got from COIE.


Those Elseworlds Realities don't exist, so I'm figuring that's not the strength of your argument.
You underestimate me....there's the idea that even post Crisis, we've seen many universes, from the anti-matter universe, to the one of the Crime Syndicate, to the one that Trigon lorded over...on and on.


Then there's this:

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/9969/thespectrev40713hz6.jpg

With every thought from every being, another reality is manifested across the infinite.

Also a cool feat with Spectre spreading himself across the infinite.


Later in the series, although the respect thread doesn't go that high so I couldn't pull the scan, Hal also lets us know that not only are there infinite realities copied across, but infinitely-layered planes of existance as well.



COIE is an old tale, don't put all your stock in it.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I have no problem believing you once you produce evidence.

Cause that's what I got from COIE.


Those Elseworlds Realities don't exist, so I'm figuring that's not the strength of your argument.

they DO exist -- within hypertime. even the PRE-crisis days exist -- within hypertime.

anyway, here's a little bit on lt:

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/1326/ltzt0.th.jpg

interesting to note a couple things:

he apparently IS multiversal (there are other scans i could find reiterating this, but i like this one ), he is apparently ABOVE the brothers, AND he thinks of the hoodded one as an ally, once again drawing a comparison bewteen himself and the spectre.

the ocean/lakes comparison wasn't perfect, perhaps, but within the ONE dcu, there was MULTIPLE univserses/realities all kept separate via hypertime. hypertime is WITHIN the grander dcu. essentially the dcu is layered with 'infinite universes' because hypertime grants access to ANY world that ever existed in dc. marvel has no parallel EXCEPT the multiverse.

they seem remarkably similar.

Originally posted by Juntai

COIE is an old tale, don't put all your stock in it.

spectre rocks!

and more to the point -- with the advent of hypertime, it seems coie was retconned, though strictly speaking from what i've read hypertime (and the linear men) have RECORD of the crisis and it's uncertain whether hypertime would allow them to travel to the time BEFORE crisis, when the universe was a multiverse though it is said all those 'infinite earths' DO exist in hypertime.

whew. hypertime is friggin' da bomb!!

Originally posted by Mr Master
In Marvel?

Yes.


This is how Marvel, the company that creates these characters measures INFINITY
http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/8929/infipo9.th.jpg

http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/958/infi2lt7.th.jpg

http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/1130/infi3rl5.th.jpg





An INFINITE Multi-verse with INFINITE Universes.

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/7402/multi13vs.th.jpg

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/7421/multieternity16do.th.jpg



The Omni-verse, this is how it looks from the OUTSIDE:


When Warlock first exited the Multi-verse, he entered a place called the Cosmic Vortex.

http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/3198/adamgoesbtwnuniverses15yh.th.jpg


In it, an INFINITE number of MULTI-VERSES are spiralling upward into an INFINITY beyond INFINITY

http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/7376/adamgoesbtwnuniverses26zw.th.jpg



And this is how it looks from the INSIDE:

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/9923/omni2cn6.th.jpg
http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/211/omni3uj8.th.jpg


I wont debate the On Panel evidence, whoever can't digest this, write a letter to Marvel and let your voice be heard. Um in the ned al though say and mean is in the end there is only the infinite meaning that in the end how can one infinite exist within another its impossible because infinite means no end so if something has an end it therefore can not be infinite, it must also mean that nothing else can exist outside of it because it being endless meaning nothing can be outside of it.

I agree that there can be an unlimited number of Multiverses and universes but none of them can be infinite.

Once again though it matters not because infinite can not be greater than another infinite.

So whether it is one with many universes and Multiverses or just one big one they can not be greater than the other.

i'm not necessarily saying one is grander than the other. everytime a new reality comes into being it is added to the hypertime line WITHIN the single dcu. everytime a new reality is added to the mu, a new UNIVERSE is born and added to the MULTIVERSE.

meh, least that's how i see and understand it.

Does nobody realize the Wildstorm and DCU exist in the same multiverse?

Originally posted by Validus
Does nobody realize the Wildstorm and DCU exist in the same multiverse?



as do all the vertigo lines. marvel's imprints however are NOT part of the standard marvel multiverse -- there is not (i do not believe . . .) any way to reach the ultimate universe, for example. based on that, you MAY be able to make a case that the dcu is actually (again by virtue of the enormity of hypertime) the larger of the 2.

ps-nice to see you contribute for a change, you cute little lurker, you.

Originally posted by leonidas


as do all the vertigo lines. marvel's imprints however are NOT part of the standard marvel multiverse -- there is not (i do not believe . . .) any way to reach the ultimate universe, for example. based on that, you MAY be able to make a case that the dcu is actually (again by virtue of the enormity of hypertime) the larger of the 2.

ps-nice to see you contribute for a change, you cute little lurker, you. I'm not so sure Vertigo does, at least many of its titles seem to have no continuity at all. Just a collection of great stories more or less. Around the time of the Infinite Crisis there was an article on Newsarama with the Editors of DC, and they said Vertigo is not canon.

However due to it's close ties, its easy to see why some can make those assumptions.

Originally posted by Validus
Does nobody realize the Wildstorm and DCU exist in the same multiverse? I said 'on and on', my bad for not giving the shoutout, especially since I'm collecting several of its titles. Sorry Val!

Originally posted by Juntai
I'm not so sure Vertigo does, at least many of its titles seem to have no continuity at all. Just a collection of great stories more or less. Around the time of the Infinite Crisis there was an article on Newsarama with the Editors of DC, and they said Vertigo is not canon.

However due to it's close ties, its easy to see why some can make those assumptions.

from my (imperfect) understanding of hypertime, i'm pretty sure the vertigo worlds ARE theoretically reachable through hypertime. i know you're aware of certain vertigo/dcu xovers. ie: books where the endless (vertigo imprint) have appeared in "dcu proper" books. near as i can tell, hypertime is supposed to tie in the entire dcu.

if anyone can find an instance of something that is supposed to be outside of hypertime, i will of course gladly concede the point.

Originally posted by Juntai
You underestimate me....there's the idea that even post Crisis, we've seen many universes, from the anti-matter universe, to the one of the Crime Syndicate, to the one that Trigon lorded over...on and on.

I'm not underestimating you friend, I just requested proof.


Originally posted by Juntai
Then there's this:

http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/9969/thespectrev40713hz6.jpg

With every thought from every being, another reality is manifested across the infinite.


With every thought from every being, another World is created (as in PLANET) I'll take that as an honest mistake.

This could be Worlds in other dimensions, not necessarily Universes.

Shuma Gorath was able to bring Earth into his dimension, but he's surely not Universal let alone in control of a Universe.

I need something more concrete, like my scans.


And the word Infinite is NOT mentioned once in that scan, so I'll take that as another honest mistake.



Originally posted by Juntai
COIE is an old tale, don't put all your stock in it.

No offense Jun, but I'm not going to put much stock into scans that don't say Universes, Multi-verses or Infinite/Infinity.

Originally posted by leonidas
they DO exist -- within hypertime. even the PRE-crisis days exist -- within hypertime.


Hypertime in DC Comics ACCORDING to DC Execs...


Hypertime has been infrequently utilized in DC titles subsequent to its introduction in The Kingdom, perhaps as a result of its chief architects and proponents, writers Mark Waid and Grant Morrison, working elsewhere in the comics industry (notably for Marvel Comics) .

While the concept was used in a multi-part story involving the Modern Age Superboy, many writers (such as "Teen Titans" writer Jay Faeber) found that their attempts to use Hypertime were either outright rejected or their stories severely altered to allow no attempt to further expand upon the concept.

In fact, promotional talks at the 2005 San Diego Comic-Con (July 2005), DC Executive Editor Dan Didio EFFECTIVELY disavowed the concept of hypertime,

Stating it would NO LONGER BE USED in Future DCU titles.



Originally posted by leonidas
anyway, here's a little bit on lt:

interesting to note a couple things:

he apparently IS multiversal (there are other scans i could find reiterating this, but i like this one ), he is apparently ABOVE the brothers, AND he thinks of the hoodded one as an ally, once again drawing a comparison bewteen himself and the spectre.

Because some Marvel/DC crossover say's so?

You buggin.


Originally posted by leonidas
the ocean/lakes comparison wasn't perfect, perhaps, but within the ONE dcu, there was MULTIPLE univserses/realities all kept separate via hypertime. hypertime is WITHIN the grander dcu. essentially the dcu is layered with 'infinite universes' because hypertime grants access to ANY world that ever existed in dc. marvel has no parallel EXCEPT the multiverse.

I addressed this in your first quote.

No Hypertime in existence anymore, so all this is inconsequential.


Originally posted by leonidas
they seem remarkably similar.

Not in the least,

but proceed with your purpose.

Originally posted by leonidas
whew. hypertime is friggin' da bomb!!

To bad it doesn't exist anymore.

Put the cork back in the bottle.

Originally posted by leonidas
from my (imperfect) understanding of hypertime, i'm pretty sure the vertigo worlds ARE theoretically reachable through hypertime. i know you're aware of certain vertigo/dcu xovers. ie: books where the endless (vertigo imprint) have appeared in "dcu proper" books. near as i can tell, hypertime is supposed to tie in the entire dcu.

if anyone can find an instance of something that is supposed to be outside of hypertime, i will of course gladly concede the point. I'm not so sure, a few have appeared in DC proper I admit, but things happen in thier own titles that doesn't stretch to the DCU, like God getting shot up in Preacher. Elaine destroying the entire concept of Hell in Lucifer. Boston Brand not being Deadman in Vertigo. Needless to say Testament doesn't take place in continuty either.. Them crossing into a DCU comic seems no more or less meaningful than a Batman Spiderman teamup. And likewise - the idea of including them into Hypertime seems no more or less likely than finding Image or Marvel on the other end.

Originally posted by Newjak
Um in the ned al though say and mean is in the end there is only the infinite meaning that in the end how can one infinite exist within another its impossible because infinite means no end so if something has an end it therefore can not be infinite, it must also mean that nothing else can exist outside of it because it being endless meaning nothing can be outside of it.

I agree that there can be an unlimited number of Multiverses and universes but none of them can be infinite.

Once again though it matters not because infinite can not be greater than another infinite.

So whether it is one with many universes and Multiverses or just one big one they can not be greater than the other.

So basically, you don't care how Marvel defines it, your logic is the right one.

Not in my book.


In the real World your logic makes sense, but in Marvel Comics there are different levels of Infinity.


AGAIN:

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/8929/infipo9.th.jpg

http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/958/infi2lt7.th.jpg


"Those are TWO LEVELS of INFINITY, of course there are ENDLESS MORE"

http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/1130/infi3rl5.th.jpg


Please read the scans, otherwise your wasting my time, no offense honestly.

Originally posted by leonidas
i'm not necessarily saying one is grander than the other. everytime a new reality comes into being it is added to the hypertime line WITHIN the single dcu. everytime a new reality is added to the mu, a new UNIVERSE is born and added to the MULTIVERSE.

Your're kinda just speculating away there buddy.


Hypertime in DC Comics ACCORDING to DC Execs...


Hypertime has been infrequently utilized in DC titles subsequent to its introduction in The Kingdom, perhaps as a result of its chief architects and proponents, writers Mark Waid and Grant Morrison, working elsewhere in the comics industry (notably for Marvel Comics) .

While the concept was used in a multi-part story involving the Modern Age Superboy, many writers (such as "Teen Titans" writer Jay Faeber) found that their attempts to use Hypertime were either outright rejected or their stories severely altered to allow no attempt to further expand upon the concept.

In fact, promotional talks at the 2005 San Diego Comic-Con (July 2005), DC Executive Editor Dan Didio EFFECTIVELY disavowed the concept of hypertime,

Stating it would NO LONGER BE USED in Future DCU titles.

Originally posted by Mr Master
I'm not underestimating you friend, I just requested proof.





With every thought from every being, another World is created (as in PLANET) I'll take that as an honest mistake.

This could be Worlds in other dimensions, not necessarily Universes.

Shuma Gorath was able to bring Earth into his dimension, but he's surely not Universal let alone in control of a Universe.

I need something more concrete, like my scans.


And the word Infinite is NOT mentioned once in that scan, so I'll take that as another honest mistake.





No offense Jun, but I'm not going to put much stock into scans that don't say Universes, Multi-verses or Infinite/Infinity.
The bubbles are universes. DC often refers to other universe as the other "Earths" or "Worlds"

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/2575/thespectrev40819mf3.jpg

Spectre refers to one as a universe, one he specifically put Stigmonus into. Stigmonus being an abstract that could affect multiple timelines at the same time.

Every thought and action has an alternate one of the bubbles.
That was said in the original scan.
Do you think that is confined merely to Earth, and merely to now?
Every thought in the history and future creates another universe.
A multiverse.

And you can see Spectre sending selves to each of the universe, even to change their courses as well.

Spectre talks about some of his duties in issue 27.

"I sail off across the Earth day after day, night after night, in more shapes and forms than I could ever count. Sail off to do what must be done in order to save the world one soul at a time."


"Across the Earth and across the galaxies. For my work isn't limited to one planet, one culture, one small vision of reality. The Hand of the Divine reaches across space and time... across all the limitless planes of existance. And where he points. I follow....

..cajoling and caressing, exhorting and harassing, comforting and terrifying, doing whatever needs to be done."

Originally posted by Mr Master
Your're kinda just speculating away there buddy.


Hypertime in DC Comics ACCORDING to DC Execs...


Hypertime has been infrequently utilized in DC titles subsequent to its introduction in The Kingdom, perhaps as a result of its chief architects and proponents, writers Mark Waid and Grant Morrison, working elsewhere in the comics industry (notably for Marvel Comics) .

While the concept was used in a multi-part story involving the Modern Age Superboy, many writers (such as "Teen Titans" writer Jay Faeber) found that their attempts to use Hypertime were either outright rejected or their stories severely altered to allow no attempt to further expand upon the concept.

In fact, promotional talks at the 2005 San Diego Comic-Con (July 2005), DC Executive Editor Dan Didio EFFECTIVELY disavowed the concept of hypertime,

Stating it would NO LONGER BE USED in Future DCU titles. Yet they still use characters from Hypertime, such as Offspring, Waverider, and others.


And Mark Waid and Grant Morrison are working for DC comics - Grant Morrison writing All Star Superman, and Seven Soldiers, as well as Authority and Wildcats, and Mark Waid is writing Legion of Superheros. Just to show you how off the info is.

that's interesting. i'll check it out. if it has been abolished i . . . find it hard to believe. perhaps it has been altered, because as jun said the linear are the guardians of hypertime and they are still present and active in the dcu. kismet -- whose role seems to be illuminating selected paths from varying diverging realities -- is apparently still alive and functioning.

i wonder what kind of in-book proof there is to substantiate the claim. calling it a load of crap, and EFFECTIVELY disavowing it, doesn't equate its being removed from continuity altogether. to the best of my knowledge there has never been a definite retcon of hypertime, which is essentially what would be needed.

his description and feeling toward hypertime sounds like a certain editor's feelings about a certain beyonder . . .

http://www.dccomics.com/comics/?cm=6245
This issue.

Originally posted by Juntai
http://www.dccomics.com/comics/?cm=6245
This issue.

i don't really wanna drag this back into it, as i don't have the posts anymore. but dan dido, executive editor over mark waid disavowed the usage of hypertime. he went so far as to say that there would be no future uses of hypertime by his staff. Any persons using hypertime are doing so against the DC directive.

I'm paraphrasing but thats basically what the top dog said...

Originally posted by rotiart
i don't really wanna drag this back into it, as i don't have the posts anymore. but dan dido, executive editor over mark waid disavowed the usage of hypertime. he went so far as to say that there would be no future uses of hypertime by his staff. Any persons using hypertime are doing so against the DC directive.

I'm paraphrasing but thats basically what the top dog said... It was already posted. However Hypertime is mentioned in the newest issue of 52.

Skeets pops in on Waverider.

"Here you are Waverider. The Seer of Hypertime. The Keeper of divergent timelines."

Waverider is actually in the comic investigating splinters and paradoxes being created in hypertime.




And for a laugh.
Let's point out who writes 52.
Geoff Johns, Grant Morrison, Greg Rucka, Mark Waid.

Originally posted by Juntai
Skeets pops in on Waverider.

"Here you are Waverider. The Seer of Hypertime. The Keeper of divergent timelines."

Waverider is actually in the comic investigating splinters and paradoxes being created in hypertime.




And for a laugh.
Let's point out who writes 52.
Geoff Johns, Grant Morrison, Greg Rucka, Mark Waid.

I got that Issue

Skeets is uber now

I also feel bad for Ralph

Originally posted by Devil Lance
I got that Issue

Skeets is uber now

I also feel bad for Ralph I liked seeing the Spectre in it too. I'm assuming this takes place inside of the 3 issue "Crisis Aftermath" series, when Crispus took a year to decide if he wanted to become God's Wrath or not.

"Of all the beings in creation, you are by far the most powerful."

Originally posted by Juntai
I liked seeing the Spectre in it too. I'm assuming this takes place inside of the 3 issue "Crisis Aftermath" series, when Crispus took a year to decide if he wanted to become God's Wrath or not.

"Of all the beings in creation, you are by far the most powerful."

Yeah Seeing the Spectre was cool I was Ralph got to deliver vengance on her though.

Do you think question is oing to die

Originally posted by Juntai
Actually bro, Hypertime is mentioned in the newest issue of 52 that came out on Wednesday.
I actually read it when I left here earlier this morning.
Waverider is in the issue.



the idea really is cool. too bad the editors don't like it. doesn't sound like some of the writers care very much though . . .

long live authorial license!

Originally posted by Entity
Which higher power would win in this fight for realities?

True Living Tribunal