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I know this may be a bit crazy. But was that scene on the pearl a kind of marriage between the two characters...before you call me crazy I'm gonna back what I say up of course.

1. On the Hero's 12 steps Jack is at step 9 during this scene I think and this scene would suggest that its a sort of sacred marriage between the two... a sacred marriage in a movie can be a real marriage or just a scene that suggests the two are bound together forever




2. The curiosity scene.. the discussion turns to marriage..for them to ever be together they have to both be with each other on their own terms..sort of like wedding vows...Liz wants Jack to be the good man..he does by the end, Jack wants Liz to be a pirate, she does by the end

"I always knew you were a good man" - Liz

"pirate" - Jack

She says "I do" by going in to almost kiss him again..in the commentary this is her having to admit she has a desire to be with Jack

he says his "I do" with the look of desire in his eyes and the word "pirate"..THEN she runs..(calypso??)

3. The line " A lady widowed before marriage. Searching for her husband lost at sea"

The definition of the word Widow:

"a woman who has lost her husband by death and has not remarried."

So Liz cant even be a widow before marriage to Will unless she was married to someone else before hand

and who is lost at sea to her and dead at the end? It sure as hell aint Will.

so even she marries Will in AWE..Is she really married to Jack first anyway? Is he the one she will ultimately remain faithful to..because I'm pretty sure she's not as cold hearted as Calypso..

Wow, that's a very interesting theory....I think you might be on to something about Jack and Liz being bound to each other. I think they are and they always will be. Bound together by Fate or something like that...

she's not as cold hearted as calypso..when she leaves him in DMC...all she wants is to bring him back..because he IS a good man..he's a good man that she loves..and in no way is she willing to let this good, honest man be gone from the world forever.

Calypso let Davy and the good man he once was be gone and remain gone it seems

yh.... u might think im dumb but like i dnt rly get who calypso is?

Originally posted by SarahB
yh.... u might think im dumb but like i dnt rly get who calypso is?

she's the one who left Davy Jones and he cut his heart out..

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Here's a greater explanation of the sacred marriage..its interesting because of something that apparently happens to Jack in his purgatory..which I cant really discuss..but it suggests that he needs Liz to make him complete IMO:



Also here is something else that happens once the hero faces his supreme ordeal the sacred marriage happens after this usually. Before the sacred marriage there is Apotheosis:




we saw that when Jack came back after his black moment of leaving them all on the pearl..that was the moment where everyone thought Jack as a character had died on them..he comes back and is like a god even with a halo of light there..we then see him fight the kraken with the gun and with the sword

LOL no one is ever interested when I post these kinds of things about the hero's typical journey in a movie

PS thanks Alina and SarahB for replying

Originally posted by LovelyOne
LOL no one is ever interested when I post these kinds of things about the hero's typical journey in a movie

PS thanks Alina and SarahB for replying

No, I think it's very interesting - but unfortunately, TnT said at wordplayer that there is no such thing as a hero's journey in AWE.

im interested

it does make sense

those two are meant to be with eachother and THAT is the way of it
Your right when you say that a marriage doesnt technically need to be 'real' ...

what is 'real' though is the obvious tension and chemistry within that scene...love that scene

T&T SAID WHAT?!!?!?!?!?!

AWE is not going to follow the hero's steps?! NO, impossible.

But...that would just shatter alot of our theories, Jack's already gone through most of it, why would they not use it.

Originally posted by Swann&Sparrow
AWE is not going to follow the hero's steps?! NO, impossible.

But...that would just shatter alot of our theories, Jack's already gone through most of it, why would they not use it.

They really did say that, sorry. I remember it so clearly because the hero's journey has been discussed here at length and I was pretty surprised to read they are not going to follow the traditional steps.

Originally posted by Swann&Sparrow
T&T SAID WHAT?!!?!?!?!?!

Ok I apologize before hand, if this sounds rude
But are TnT dumb? Did they went to school to take writing classes???
There's always a hero in a movie and that hero always has to have a journey, the hero always fights for something there is always a main goal that the hero has to accomplish in a movie. I'm sorry but this sounds stupid. Are they retarded. I just cant believe they said that.


By the way Lovely I always enjoy reading your posts. I love them

Originally posted by ladyofthesilent
No, I think it's very interesting - but unfortunately, TnT said at wordplayer that there is no such thing as a hero's journey in AWE.

well its not even a Hero's journey..its just the basic structure of a story..they are bein silly saying that..all characters face a supreme ordeal..Will hasn't yet and I bet he does..I dont think Liz has



they must be following it because they have also said they are splitting the two movies into the 3 acts..and these 3 acts tie in with the typical steps..

I think he might mean no hero as in the noble hero..well he's right its a pirate movie..they all are anti-heros...people who's motives are often for the greater good yet their means to achieve them are against the morals of society

He also said by the end of movie 3 the hero has to win and that the hero smiles in each act...so this is based on heros (anti-heros)

and it also suggests that Jack is their hero not Will..Jack smiles in every act of movie 1..he's smiled in DMC in act 1 and 2 all thats left is act 3

have TnT deffinately stated that they have made one character a 'hero'?

for some reason i get the feeling that there are no no 'heros' in these films...just 'ordinary' peple being taken on journeys that test their strengths and weaknesses...

Technically they are their own hero's...

...and i realise im officially talking crap...so i shall shut up now lol

What if they try to make Will the hero in AWE, would that be possible?

I got the feeling that TnT were specifically talking about the concept of the "hero's journey" and the steps we're all familiar with, not about whether there's a hero or not.

LOL if thats the case they must be insane...this is a blockbuster not a independent movie where they can mess around with what people are familiar with..if they mess around with it there is a large chance that AWE will flop spectacularly...

movie 2/3 are one story spilt into 2 movies..they are half way through and they are just gonna stop with the steps?

maybe not..maybe 3 is separate from DMC??

confused!



AWE is just gonna confuse the hell out of people if they don't follow those steps in some way..

well people never really follow them to a tee, often things get jumbled but they are insane to mess with a typical structure of a story..if its a blockbuster.


this is Will's story so maybe thy are not really making him follow the steps properly and are going to bend the rules a little bit when it comes to the ending.

did they say that on wordplayer ladyofthesilent? was it a reply to a comment someone made?

aha...they may have used the reset button technique with Jack dying like that..

Yes how long ago was that posted? It wasn't recently was it..

OMFG dont tell me they are using the reset button thing..OMG I really think they are! *am pissed and shocked*..so DMC was dare I say..."pointless" and AWE is the real story??


I cant see how it would work if they are becasue its only usually successful in TV shows and TV dramas..not trilogies and movies..thats just a bizarre thing to do!...I honestly dont think they are doing that..

Originally posted by LovelyOne
did they say that on wordplayer ladyofthesilent? was it a reply to a comment someone made?

I tried to find it, but since you can't search the wordplayer forums ... well, I am sure I read it as a statement by one of the authors and if I should stumble across it again, I'll post it here, I promise.

Originally posted by LovelyOne
OMFG dont tell me they are using the reset button thing..OMG I really think they are! *am pissed and shocked*..so DMC was dare I say..."pointless" and AWE is the real story??


I cant see how it would work if they are becasue its only usually successful in TV shows and TV dramas..not trilogies and movies..thats just a bizarre thing to do!...I honestly dont think they are doing that..


Please explain to me, Im totally lost. How they can they possible do this?

thanks ladyofthesilent...I've been banned from word player till the 20th lol

Misty...its when thy kill off a character so that things can be reset back how they were before all the development happened in an episode I think




I cant see how this can work in a trilogy where movie 2 is a cliff hanger..but notice how all 3 characters in move 3 (draft script) are pretty much back to how they were in movie 1/start of movie 2 before anything in DMC happened?..Will hating Jack..Liz wanting Will...Jack being typical Jack??
It may just be used so that they can follow the same pattern of development again in AWE, start from scratch to keep things interesting for a 3rd..

I remember Terry saying if you hated DMC..you are likely to utterly loathe AWE..meaning its probably gonna be pretty similar in terms of story telling/development of all the characters in DMC..#

I think this may be a sort of reset button but not so that J/E can be erased but so they can start an interesting story again where all characters are at odds...if J/E were all over each other from the start of AWE then there would be no chance of them developing closer together by the end of the story. They are keeping it interesting.

but what worries me is writers often do this when they want to end something they think could potentially ruin the series in the long run..maybe they think Jack being with Elizabeth would have ruined the continuation/success of Jack as a character(typical Jack we all "love" )..they may have thought "lets give it a go, then reset it"

I wonder if they realize thats NOT the case J/E is now massively popular..

Ohh ok Thanks Lovely that sounds really interesting. Humm

actually...No I dont think this is a reset button being used..it kinda is..but I dont think its one that means J/E has been erased..its just knocked back a whole bunch

I don't know, I did not like the sound of that..they would probably knocked so far back and possibly make it disappear.

no I dont think so..it wouldnt work with a movie going audience..they never do this in movies....they do with James bond but there is no James bond story where its split into 2 movies..each bond movie is basically its own new story..the only time we get a flash back to another JB story is when Jaws comes back for a cameo..at least I think he does..

Originally posted by LovelyOne
no I dont think so..it wouldnt work with a movie going audience..they never do this in movies....they do with James bond but there is no James bond story where its split into 2 movies..each bond movie is basically its own new story..the only time we get a flash back to another JB story is when Jaws comes back for a cameo..at least I think he does..

PotC is massively different from series like James Bond or Indiana Jones because, like in Star Wars or Harry Potter, there's a continuation in the movies, they're linked to each other and are actually telling only ONE story (not three different ones which are not interconnected).

What happened in DMC (especially between J and E) has to be important to the series as a whole; now I doubt they used this to make the W/E romance more interesting. J/E and especially Liz lusting after another man (because that's what she did) ruined the W/E relationship forever and TnT are not THAT stupid: They know what they've written and I believe they intended to show that W/E won't work out.

Now this doesn't mean we'll get a J/E ending - but I am almost sure the ending won't be W/E, either.


J/E opened up a lot of possibilities for AWE:

1. Jack was obviously willing to give up his freedom for another person - and he wanted to be a good man (again). Elizabeth's betrayal of his trust (and love) will influence his decisions in AWE (and from what I've read here also his actions in purgatory). This, of course, has to be resolved. Jack won't end up frustrated and desperate ... he has never been rewarded for being a good man - but I think that's exactly what will happen in AWE!

2. Elizabeth has to come to terms with the fact that her relationship with Will is falling apart and that they're not good for each other. Elizabeth doesn't want to be a proper wife and mother, she wants freedom and that is what the sinking wedding dress symbolizes (according to TnT). Furthermore, she has been reckless with other people's hearts since we met her for the first time (think of poor Norrington) - I think it's time she'll get a little heartache herself!

3. The conflict that arose from Elizabeth's actions on the Pearl has to be resolved. J and E have to talk about the kiss and the fact she chained him to the mast and I think they'll ultimately have to find out whether this was a beginning or an end. I do see both possibilities, actually ...

I agree that they can't just flat out say they aren't doing the hero's journey steps. No matter how creative a story, the main character ultimately follows a path laid out by the first storytellers. There are some things that are in every story, especially action ones that involve quests and completing a mission, etc.

No offense to the great writers of POTC and Shrek and whatever else they've done, but they don't seem to get certain things, you know?

Originally posted by willofthewisp
I agree that they can't just flat out say they aren't doing the hero's journey steps. No matter how creative a story, the main character ultimately follows a path laid out by the first storytellers. There are some things that are in every story, especially action ones that involve quests and completing a mission, etc.

No offense to the great writers of POTC and Shrek and whatever else they've done, but they don't seem to get certain things, you know?

Well, actually I believe that TnT know what they're doing ... after all, they wrote some pretty succesful movies AND they have to answer to Disney for what they write. And Disney (or Bruckheimer, for that matter) would never approve of a script which would appal a large part of the audience. Disney wants to earn a whole lot of money with AWE - so they have to make a really fantastic movie almost everyone will like. TnT knew that from the beginning and I am pretty sure that's what they wrote.

Now the "Hero's Journey" has been discussed on KttC and KMC - TnT probably read that and wanted to tell the fans that it is not possible to predict the plot of AWE by following the classical steps of the hero's journey. I wouldn't worry too much about that quote ...

And we have to keep in mind that Jack Sparrow is not a traditional hero. He's been dubbed an 'anti-hero' by the writers. That doesn't make him any less heroic, or his actions less admirable. It only means that he won't conform to the traditional hero's path. More than likely, he struggle deeply with the events that led up to his death and as a result, he will more than likely deviate away from the typical steps.

More than likely, I think what the writers were trying to suggest with their quote about the steps was that their story, while it does compare with many great works of literature, cannot necessarily be pigeon holed into a specific category. There is danger in trying to compare POTC to other works. For example, I fell into the trap recently of comparing Jack to Huck Finn. While they share certain similarities, the stories and the characters are entirely different, behave in different ways etc...In short, we can't make the assumption that POTC will go in a certain direction simply because it's a fantasy or heroic film.

And while we're on the subject of assumptions, let's clear up some assumptions about the writers. It's a dangerous habit to categorize the writers of POTC as stupid, or as not knowing what they're doing simply because their responses have seemed unpredictable. The fact that DMC had so much wonderful depth and ambiguity seems to indicate the very opposite of the belief. These writers are original, well-read and remarkably intelligent, and it would behoove us all to stop critcizing them every time we hear rumors that function contrary to the group theory.

They're going to write a story that will be incredible. There will be twists and turns. Jack will not act in the expected way, nor will he behave like the typical hero because that would be boring! Would anyone really want to see Jack behave like Will all the time? Always morally upright and doing the right thing? No. And because the 12 steps are patterns that have been established in literature for the longest time, if he were to follow the steps exactly, that would murder his character and relegate him to a boring, predictable pattern.

Originally posted by Lovelyone
............nor will he behave like the typical hero because that would be boring! Would anyone really want to see Jack behave like Will all the time? Always morally upright and doing the right thing?

definetly nt!! tht wud ruin potc altogether lol

In short, the writers are absolutely correct not to follow the twelve step pattern with AWE because part of what makes Jack so interesting is his unpredictability---his ambiguous moral landscape. For that matter, that's what makes all the characters so interesting. If Elizabeth's actions at the end of DMC been predictable, we wouldn't all be here discussing POTC in the forum. Why criticize the writers for something that at it's core, is correct? That's all I'm saying. I think we need to let go and trust that they're going to write they possibly can, to create a story that makes sense with the path that the movies have taken thus far. They're not going to jerk the rug out from underneath us. They've as much as confirmed most of the symbolism in DMC. All of that is pointing to a specific direction that they know, and it will be a satisfying conclusion---12 steps fulfilled or not.

They've said that they enjoyed writing the characters in such a way where they struggled to navigate the morally ambiguous pirate world. That means that the characters are going to struggle to find their path. They'll find it in the end, but the path may or may not be where we expect, or want it to lead. It has to make sense with the development.

You think the writers are really using the 12 steps or is it just coincidence?

But seems to me they are, I mean they cant be that stupid.

you know why I think they said they aren't using them?? its because they have cut them off at certain points by the end of DMC..each character appears to be at a different step. 2/3 is one big story..As I've said many times..I think they are just continuing from where DMC left them all off, Jack didnt even complete them before the movie ended... They aren't starting from scratch with AWE, they are just starting from where they left off possibly.. I think that may be what they mean..Or I may be wrong..

Hey Lovely I missed you alooooooooooooooot. The last 2 days I was online you werent. FINALLY I GET TO SAY HI!!

Im sorry that had nothing to do with potc lol.