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Onslaught vs Dark Phoenix. Who wins?

Dark Pheonix.


I don't care if his defeat was total PIS....I consider many of Pheonix's defeats to be total PIS as well.


For example, when Pheonix Force was impaled by a fkn LASER ! The life force of this universe was harmed by a portion of itself ? Give me a fkn break....

All PIS aside, and I mean ALL PIS aside, Dark Pheonix wins.


Onslaught created a second sun...so what ? Pheonix is the life force that brought Galan from the last Universe to this to become Galactus. Pheonix is the embodyment of the life force in Marvel 616, the spark of creation.

Pheonix Force at its fullest power (before its been mini-retconned again and again as something weaker) is responsible for the life-giving structure of every star and world in space.

Onslaught had not performed feats which raise him above Dark Pheonix.

Dark Phoenix unlike most characters she could deal with a being of pure psyonic energy

Isn't she still considered a mutant? And Onsalught can't be beaten by mutants. He just feeds off of them and their powers. Nate Grey is equal to Dark Phoenix and he got beat and absorbed.

Onslaught can create suns...Dark Phoenix eats them.

Dark Phoenix wins.

Nate Grey is in no way equal to Phoenix.

And Phoenix being the sum total of all psionic energy in the MU> Onslaught.

Phoenix 9/10

Onslaught ftw shifty

Actually in the issue of Cable right before Onsalught, Moria Mctaggert scans Nate Grey and says his power output is on par with that of the Phoenix. Which considering Jean Grey is his mom is understandable.

And Phoenix is still a mutant and Onslaught cannot be killed by mutants.

Originally posted by Starhawk
And Phoenix is still a mutant and Onslaught cannot be killed by mutants. The Phoenix entity is not a mutant

Still Dark Phoenix is. Even if it's just the Phoenix taking the physical form of Jean Grey. Still counts as a mutant in physical form.

Originally posted by Starhawk
Still Dark Phoenix is. Even if it's just the Phoenix taking the physical form of Jean Grey. Still counts as a mutant in physical form. no

Jean Grey= Mutant

The Phoenix Force= A cosmic entity (which is not a mutant)

No but The Phoenix takes the physical form of Jean Grey and becomes basically a clone of her and is a mutant and even has registered as one to cerebro in the past.

Originally posted by Starhawk
No but The Phoenix takes the physical form of Jean Grey and becomes basically a clone of her and is a mutant and even has registered as one to cerebro in the past. Thats because cerebro registered Jean Grey (who is a Mutant) as such.

The Phoenix itself is cosmic in nature, it chooses Jean as its host.

Does this make the PF itself a Mutant? no

No but as Dark Phoenix it takes a physical form and copies the traits of Jean Grey

Originally posted by Starhawk
No but as Dark Phoenix it takes a physical form and copies the traits of Jean Grey Do you think the Phoenix Force is a Mutant?

Yes or No

DP ftw here folks.

I know the Phoenix Force itself is not a mutant but when it takes over Jean Grey or creates a copy of her to inhabit it is.

Originally posted by Starhawk
No but as Dark Phoenix it takes a physical form and copies the traits of Jean Grey

1) Last time I checked Jean Grey couldn't survive in the vacuum of space, travel to another galaxy in less than a few seconds, and eat a star.

Dark Pheonix itself is NOT a mutant. Get over it.


2) Even if Dark Pheonix was a mutant, she'd still smear Onslaught into red and purple feces. It's not true that mutants cannot defeat Onslaught. No where does it say that in the saga. When he was in Energy form, non-mutant bodies were required to give the energy a body, so that they can be destroyed. Since Onslaught composed of 4 mutant bodies beforehand (Prof X, Magneto, Nate Grey, Franklyn Richards), another mutant body would have not made a difference. A non-mutant body, or bodies, was needed to absorb the energy that Onslaught existed as, so that it could be destroyed in a weaker form.



That does not mean a mutant could not defeat him.




Onslaught did nothing that suggests he could defeat Dark Pheonix. HE defeating Jean Grey on the Astral plane does not prove anything. Jean Grey does not have full access to the Pheonix Force, after the DP saga, her concious link to the Pheonix had to be limitted and depleted by Professor Xavier, and she went on only using a fraction of the power of the PF.

Onslaught defeated Jean Grey on the Astral Plane, the purely psychic realm of the universe where she had to face the culmination of Xavier and Magneto's egos, to whom Jean Grey alone was no match.

Originally posted by Starhawk
I know the Phoenix Force itself is not a mutant but when it takes over Jean Grey or creates a copy of her to inhabit it is. When the Phoenix Force merges /w/ Jean Grey that DOES NOT make it a Mutant. Like I have already said:

Jean Grey= A Mutant, thats it.

Phoenix Force= A cosmic entity whom has no affiliations with the Mutant community unless she chooses a Mutant host. Does that make the Phoenix itself a Mutant? no

In the issue of Cable right before Onsalught, Moria Mctaggert scans Nate Grey and says his power output is on par with that of the Phoenix. And Onsalught took him out.

And it's stated in Onslaught: Marvel Universe, it's stated that no mutant can defeat Onslaught which is why the Avengers and FF sacrificed themselves to do it and the X-Men had to hold back.

Originally posted by Galan777
When the Phoenix Force merges /w/ Jean Grey that DOES NOT make it a Mutant. Like I have already said:

Jean Grey= A Mutant, thats it.

Phoenix Force= A cosmic entity whom has no affiliations with the Mutant community unless she chooses a Mutant host. Does that make the Phoenix itself a Mutant? no

No but in order to fight Onslaught it would need a physical body and since Jean is a mutant and if it makes a copy of her the copy is also a mutant. The no-mutant beating him thing would come into effect.

Originally posted by Starhawk
No but in order to fight Onslaught it would need a physical body and since Jean is a mutant and if it makes a copy of her the copy is also a mutant. The no-mutant beating him thing would come into effect. whatever you say laddie

You don't need to be rude simply because I disagree with you. I think I provided enough proof of my arguement.

In the past when the Phoenix takes the form of Jean or inhabits her it registers on cerebro as a mutant.

Originally posted by Starhawk
In the issue of Cable right before Onsalught, Moria Mctaggert scans Nate Grey and says his power output is on par with that of the Phoenix. And Onsalught took him out.

And it's stated in Onslaught: Marvel Universe, it's stated that no mutant can defeat Onslaught which is why the Avengers and FF sacrificed themselves to do it and the X-Men had to hold back.

the plan they had after onslaught became energy was to fill him up with their energies and reed said that a mutant would give him a way to live so when they filled him up the xmen and co let loose with all they had
so you guys are a little off anyway
DARK PHOENIX WINS

Rouge tried to attack him and it didn't work cause shes a mutant. When Mutants come into contact with him or use their powers on him it feeds him.

Originally posted by Starhawk
Rouge tried to attack him and it didn't work cause shes a mutant. When Mutants come into contact with him or use their powers on him it feeds him. Yet when Cyclops optic-blasted him, it created a crack in his armour.

Dark Phoenix wins.

Still Nate Grey has been established as being equal in power to Dark Phoenix and Onslaught took him out.

i think moria was stating that nate has the potential to be on par with phoenix,but i see what you mean,on another topic,wanda goes into onslaught and someone says her hex will protect her i wonder if with onslaught coming back that it will have somthing to do with wandas powers recently and his return,i mean onslaught was made from xavier and magneto add wanda and you have House of M just somthing to think about

Originally posted by Lord S
Yet when Cyclops optic-blasted him, it created a crack in his armour.

Dark Phoenix wins.

was it cyclops i thort it was savage hulk that tore onslaught armour apart?

Cyclops opened a crack by going all out with his strongest blast then Thor flew threw Onslaught grabbing Prof X then Hulk did it.

And no Moria was looking at Nates power output and said it WAS on par with Phoenix.

Scan?

Did it specify which Phoenix?

Dark phoenix?
WC?
Jean Grey with the codename of Phoenix?

Onslaught wins for one reason. As you guys said, Onslaught is extremely difficult for humans to defeat. Dark Phoenix, is a mutant. The phoenix force, is not. By specifying Dark Phoenix, you limit her power output. The phoenix force could beat Onslaught, that's not in dispute. What is whether or not Dark Phoenix, with the limits of jean's body, could defeat Onslaught. Now, all incarnations of Phoenix have unlimited power. The problem is, so does Onslaught. Feat-wise, Phoenix narrowly trumps Onslaught. Mostly cause she beat a weakened Galactus. However, big G was hungry at the time, so she might not beat a full power Galactus. Phoenix force could, but Dark Phoenix is not the limit of it's power. Basically, you handicapped DP and gave Onslaught potentially his full power. Btw, which version of Onslaught is it? Armor, beast, or psychedelic energy thingy?

Moria said Dark Phoenix.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
For example, when Pheonix Force was impaled by a fkn LASER ! The life force of this universe was harmed by a portion of itself ?.

the "life force" of the Universe?


What are you talking about?



Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Onslaught created a second sun...so what ?

It's not the most awesome feat, but Phoenix has never done it.


Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Pheonix is the life force that brought Galan from the last Universe to this to become Galactus.


Not on panel.


Galactus's Origin has been depicted THREE times On Panel, NEVER ONCE, was Phoenix mentioned.


If you can find me just ONE comic where this is drawn, I'll agree with you, but since I know your basing this idea on bios or handbooks I know you can't.


Tell me where if anywhere does it mention Phoenix supposedly "enabling Galen to incubate in the Cosmic Egg"....how about even JUST Saving Galactus...


This is the ORIGINAL depiction of Galactus's ORIGIN.
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/6590/eternitymadeg6zvfs1.th.jpg


This is the SECOND time they depicted Galactus's Origin On Panel.

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/1505/g1um9sy5.th.jpg

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/1943/g2va5ro2.th.jpg


And this is the Third:

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/3530/g1qy9.th.jpg

http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/8348/g2kj9.th.jpg

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/618/g3je8.th.jpg


See anything different, yea me neither.

In ALL THREE instances, Eternity or the sentience of the Universe saved Galactus NOT Phoenix, the biatch isn't even Mentioned.


By the way, Do not be confused by the Third depiction, where the sentience is called "the ENIGMA FORCE"

The Enigma Force is what powers Captain Universe, and Captain Universe is the ESSENCE of the UNIVERSE, if He DIES...EVERYONE DIES.

http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/2517/g4fj8.th.jpg

Look hard...and realize Phoenix is NOT even mentioned during the Galactus history lesson.



Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Pheonix is the embodyment of the life force in Marvel 616,

Negative.


When Xorn shattered the Phoenix Force into a billion pieces, nothing happened to the Universe, or to any life in the Universe.


Originally posted by Lord Urizen
the spark of creation.


Thoeretically,

it has never happened on panel.


Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Pheonix Force at its fullest power (before its been mini-retconned again and again as something weaker) is responsible for the life-giving structure of every star and world in space.

Stop counting on bios for info LU, that's a total exaggeration.


Genis-vell and Entropy destroyed and recreated Eternity, Phoenix had nothing to do with it (they gave it their own structure)


Wanda remade Eternity several times, (re-ordering it's structure, and PF had nothing to with it)


5 Cosmic Containment Units created from scratch a duplicate 616 Eternity, sustained by the thier own power, PF had nothing to do with it.


The Makers re-structured the Universe that contains the Micro-verse, PF had nothing to with it.


The Infinites re-structured 616 Eternity, again PF had nothing to with it.


Magus and Warlock BOTH REMADE Eternity with an Incomplete Infinity Gauntlet, and still PF had nothing to do with it.


I couls go on but I think you get the picture.


Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Onslaught had not performed feats which raise him above Dark Pheonix.

You said without PIS, Phoenix takes this,

without PIS Onslaught has Franklyn Richards powers, (who can create pocket Universe) and Nate Grey's powers which together are FAAAAR beyond DP or the PF.


Phoenix has never even created a Galaxy.


Onslaught 10/10

some people just dont know their blasted characters. dear me!


thanks Mr. Master, I was searching through books for about what LU said and also on the net but I couldnt find it.

everybody is a fanboy/girl and spew some bad information.

and i know it is going to continue so carry on, lol

Originally posted by Lord S
Onslaught can create suns...Dark Phoenix eats them.

Dark Phoenix wins. I can eat a chicken, but I can't create them.
So that means I could beat god, or whoever made them?

If we're talking Onslaught with Nate and Franklin, then yeah he takes it. But just the original Xavier/Magneto combination goes down. Hard.

Originally posted by darthgoober
If we're talking Onslaught with Nate and Franklin, then yeah he takes it. But just the original Xavier/Magneto combination goes down. Hard. Didn't that one beat Phoenix?

Originally posted by bigbran
Didn't that one beat Phoenix?
Phoenix and Dark Phoenix are two different stories. But it's been awhile since I read that arc, so I'll check it out and get back to you.

Originally posted by bigbran
I can eat a chicken, but I can't create them.
So that means I could beat god, or whoever made them? Sure you can...buy a chicken and make her lay eggs.

Originally posted by Lord S
Sure you can...buy a chicken and make her lay eggs.

Then the chicken creates a chicken.

Unless Bigbran starts laying eggs.

But the point is that everyone is under the misconception that Onslaught's creating of a second sun was done under his power. That was not the case...it was Franklin's power. Franklin's power was not an extension of his own...think of it like his Power Gem, or Infinity Gauntlet.

Onslaught was basically Xavier+Magneto, and those two are hopeless against a full-powered and ravenous Dark Phoenix.

DARK PHOENIX swallowed a Sun.
DP 10/10

Nate Grey is equal in power to Dark Phoenix and Onslaught took him down.

In the X-men issue right before Onslaught he crushes it in his hand like a tin can.

And Jean was able to remove the psionic blocks that Onslaught placed in Juggernaut's mind. And if Nate has equal power, so what? He certainly didn't have the experience or wisdom.

Both times (Dark) Phoenix was defeated in the original story line was because she took herself down. No one short of herald is taking Dark Phoenix out.

Here is Onslaught WITHOUT Nate's or Franklin's Powers, in Astral Form:



Onslaught crushing and snuffing out the Phoenix Force like a measly candle

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/6918/1gu8.th.jpg

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/3707/2bj3.th.jpg



Phoenix is overrated:


Xorn, KILLING Jean Grey (White Phoenix of the Crown) with an Electromagnetic Pulse

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/3669/1vd7.th.jpg

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/5718/2eb7.th.jpg


The Actual PHOENIX FORCE (NOT Jean, the FORCE itself) was shattered into a BILLION Pieces because of this, even the stinking OFFICIAL Marvel Site Bio expresses this FACT.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Here is Onslaught WITHOUT Nate's or Franklin's Powers, in Astral Form:



Onslaught crushing and snuffing out the Phoenix Force like a measly candle

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/6918/1gu8.th.jpg

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/3707/2bj3.th.jpg




Where is my credit? madshakefist

Originally posted by Starhawk
Nate Grey is equal in power to Dark Phoenix and Onslaught took him down.

In the X-men issue right before Onslaught he crushes it in his hand like a tin can. That's the third or fourth time you've said that. Stop post-whoring.

First of all, character statements mean nothing until we've seen a display of such power, on panel. That statement is nothing but hyperbole...which happens a lot in comics. (Ie. Psylocke's 'teke' being able to destroy mountains).

Secondly, Onslaught didn't take him down in any sort of fight...IIRC, he came up behind him through a portal and abducted right in front of Mr. Sinister.

Thirdly, you'd have us believe that Nate Grey is capable of supernova-ing a sun?

I say you're quite insane.

I'm not saying Nate didn't have the potential to reach Dark Phoenix type levels, but he certainly wasn't capable of exhibiting that type of power when Onslaught took him...nor could he stand up to a Thanos clone in PSI battle a short time later.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Here is Onslaught WITHOUT Nate's or Franklin's Powers, in Astral Form:



Onslaught crushing and snuffing out the Phoenix Force like a measly candle

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/6918/1gu8.th.jpg

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/3707/2bj3.th.jpg



Phoenix is overrated:


Xorn, KILLING Jean Grey (White Phoenix of the Crown) with an Electromagnetic Pulse

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/3669/1vd7.th.jpg

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/5718/2eb7.th.jpg


The Actual PHOENIX FORCE (NOT Jean, the FORCE itself) was shattered into a BILLION Pieces because of this, even the stinking OFFICIAL Marvel Site Bio expresses this FACT.

And your point with these scans is what? That Onslaught can crush an avatar on the astral plane? And? Why wasn't he able to wrest the "secret" of the PF from Jean, considering that he had the Professor's TP (who knows her better than just about anyone)? Why did he ask her to join instead of just taking her like he did Franklin and Nate?

The force was shattered because the host was dead. This is nothing new. It doesn't diminish the power of Phoenix in the slightest. And that wasn't "White Crown" Phoenix. That wasn't until Jean had transcended after Here Comes Tomorrow.

And you certainly can't compare the actions of a benevolent behaving Jean Grey to the malefic nature of Dark Phoenix. Onslaught was powerful, no doubt. He's also very calculating.

DP isn't calculating in the slightest. She doesn't have to be. The more she uses her power, the more it grows. If you want to raise the issue of Phoenix as well as DP, then use the feats as well--all of them.

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
And your point with these scans is what? That Onslaught can crush an avatar on the astral plane? And? Why wasn't he able to wrest the "secret" of the PF from Jean, considering that he had the Professor's TP (who knows her better than just about anyone)? Why did he ask her to join instead of just taking her like he did Franklin and Nate?

The force was shattered because the host was dead. This is nothing new. It doesn't diminish the power of Phoenix in the slightest. And that wasn't "White Crown" Phoenix. That wasn't until Jean had transcended after Here Comes Tomorrow.

And you certainly can't compare the actions of a benevolent behaving Jean Grey to the malefic nature of Dark Phoenix. Onslaught was powerful, no doubt. He's also very calculating.

DP isn't calculating in the slightest. She doesn't have to be. The more she uses her power, the more it grows. If you want to raise the issue of Phoenix as well as DP, then use the feats as well--all of them.


Theoretically, the Phoenix Force is the SPARK that Ignites the Big Bang cyclically for a Universe when it's time has come to be recycled.

Theoretically because it has NEVER happened On Panel.


Now On Panel,

the Phoenix in ALL it's forms, is a joke in the Cosmic Hierarchy.




Let us begin shall we:


Unlike other AVATARS, Rachel Summers is the DAUGHTER of Jean Grey (the White Phoenix of the Crown)

The Actual PHOENIX FORCE is controlled by Rachel Summers

http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/8417/f6jt2.th.jpg


This is no surprise:

The Phoenix Force tells Rachel, "ALL I have become, You ARE Too"

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/4920/f2bj2.th.jpg

"My Essence is Bonded to Your Spirit, the Burden of Power, will be YOURS"


The Phoenix Force itself told Rachel, " You are the ONE TRUE PHOENIX"

http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/6269/f5uk4.th.jpg


NOW:


Rachel Summers (while in the 616 Universe) with the PHOENIX FORCE getting Owned by Mordred, and Mordred is in ANOTHER Universe, (Mordred has absolute control of Rachel)

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/3193/f7xr4.th.jpg



Rachel Summers with the PHOENIX FORCE getting Owned by Quasar

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/4886/f8qd6.th.jpg



Quasar holding his own against Rachel Summers with the PHOENIX FORCE, AND Mordred, while protecting Nightcrawler, Meggan and Captain Britain

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/7493/f9vs6.th.jpg



Rachel Summers getting KNOCKED Out by Thor with ONE blast,

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/7531/f10nq4.th.jpg



continues in the next post..

Continues...


Now lets observe Jean Grey (White Phoenix of the Crown) getting OWNED all over the place:


"Phoenix AGAIN REGAINED Her FULL, GodLike Powers"

http://img67.imageshack.us/img67/6364/3496xr9.th.jpg


Then gets ZAPPED ONCE and DIES.

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/2479/f5km4ab7.th.jpg


Different angle:

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/1296/f6io2.th.jpg



Onslaught crushing and snuffing out the Phoenix Force like a measly candle

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/6918/1gu8.th.jpg

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/3707/2bj3.th.jpg



Xorn, KILLING Jean Grey the (White Phoenix of the Crown) and exploding the PHOENIX FORCE into a Billion pieces with an Electromagnetic Pulse,

http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/3669/1vd7.th.jpg

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/5718/2eb7.th.jpg



Continues in the next post....

Continues....



The Actual PHOENIX FORCE (WITHOUT an AVATAR) again is manipulated

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/4852/f11lk4.th.jpg

"an Ancient Crippled Alien Construct brought the PHOENIX FORCE here by WRENCHING it through the Space/Time Continuum from ITS NATIVE UNIVERSE"



Rose Hunt with ONE blast, FLOORS the Phoenix Force

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/7744/r1ml1.th.jpg

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/8383/r2fy7.th.jpg


Look at how the ACTUAL PHOENIX FORCE leave's Amber Hunt's body

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/7332/r3zm4.th.jpg



Continues in the next post...

Continues...



"The Ship SNARED the PHOENIX FORM from another Dimension to be the driving source"

http://img474.imageshack.us/img474/8838/ayx9.th.jpg


And this is the ON PANEL evidence of this EVENT

While the PHOENIX FORCE is in it's NATURAL STATE (Truly the MOST Powerful version, even beyond WPOTC or Jean Grey)

The SHIP, rips a HOLE in Space & Time in front of the PHOENIX FORCE in it's own Universe

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/6522/p1rc5.th.jpg

"Out of one marvelous Universe and into another"

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/6805/p2ek6.th.jpg



THEN, the SHIP attacks the ACTUAL PHOENIX FORCE, the SHIP wants to drain the energy of the FORCE


"Impaled, Spitted, the PHOENIX writhes as it's LIFE is SUCKED OUT"

http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/57/p3xa6.th.jpg

"It has never known PAIN of this magnitude, it SCREAMS"



"It's willfully TORTURING the PHOENIX" ..... am I imagining things, or is it's FIRE GOING OUT, the COLORS are FADING, like it's DYING"

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/2048/p4ah2.th.jpg

"TRULY, the PHOENIX is BATTLING for IT'S LIFE against the sear of Light that is STRIPPING it's POWER AWAY"



The PHOENIX manages to break free for a moment (though NEAR DEATH)


"WOUNDED the PHOENIX FALLS, to SURVIVE, to MEND, to HEAL, it MUST find a Host"
http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/2513/p5mr2.th.jpg



The SHIP allows the PHOENIX to escape for now,

"to locate it's pilot program BEFORE DRAINING IT ENTIRELY"
http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/8475/p6nd8.th.jpg



Continues in the next post...

Continues...


A Few members of the X-Men and Ultra Force (SIX in ALL) are sent to battle the ACTUAL PHOENIX FORCE (WITHOUT an AVATAR)

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/3901/6rh9.th.jpg



"The assembled Heroes are TIRED & BATTERED, the PHOENIX is REBORN and FRESH"

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/9686/f12xp8.th.jpg
AND they're STILL holding their own



Amber Hunt & Gate tear a Hole through Time & Space,

http://img431.imageshack.us/img431/4613/f13qr4.th.jpg



The Six heroes BEAT (PHYSICALLY) the PHOENIX FORCE into and through the Portal

http://img431.imageshack.us/img431/2667/f14nz2.th.jpg



The PHOENIX FORCE ends up DISPLACED by FOUR Billion Years

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/5469/f15eg2.th.jpg

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
And your point with these scans is what?

Rachel as the ONE and True Phoenix,

Dark Phoenix

Jean Grey as the White Crown,

and the Phoenix Force itself,


are all Overrated, that's my point.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Rachel as the ONE and True Phoenix,

Dark Phoenix

Jean Grey as the White Crown,

and the Phoenix Force itself,


are all Overrated, that's my point.

Everyone's entitled to their opinion.

I must say though, it's fascinating that you have so many scans of a character/concept that you despise so much.

Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
Everyone's entitled to their opinion.

Uhh, I didn't draw those scans,

they're from Marvel issues,

so Marvel's entitled to their opinion is a more accurate statement.



Originally posted by Cosmic Flame
I must say though, it's fascinating that you have so many scans of a character/concept that you despise so much.

I have so many scans of EVERYONE my friend.

Mr Master what a joke you are i have been on this site for over a month or so and everybody i have a conversation with laughs at you heheh
that was not the phoenix onslaught crushes period,they are in the astral plane and he is trying to convince jean to take his side,also you love to use the scan from a crossover which is not allowed but you do it anyway,you quote from a bio for your own good but then you put down when people say the phoenix was instrumental in galactus's origin which comes from a bio,you really think your flunkies think you know better than marvel? ive seen in other threads where you are called out for misrepresenting the scans you post and you disappear with your tail between your legs,not everybody can scan and upload pics and such that does not make them wrong, you act like a bully, in Brooklyn New York your called a punk

Originally posted by starlock
Mr Master what a joke you are i have been on this site for over a month or so and everybody i have a conversation with laughs at you heheh





Originally posted by starlock
that was not the phoenix onslaught crushes period,they are in the astral plane and he is trying to convince jean to take his side,

Learn to read newb,

I clearly said Onslaught was in the Astral Plane.


these yuky children, why do they infest our forum.


Originally posted by starlock
also you love to use the scan from a crossover which is not allowed but you do it anyway,

What cross over you nitwit?


Originally posted by starlock
you quote from a bio for your own good but then you put down when people say the phoenix was instrumental in galactus's origin which comes from a bio,

Bonehead,

what I quoted from a bio, IS DEPICTED ON PANEL!


Phoenix being involved in Galactus's Origin, IS NOT ON PANEL!


Go READ COMICS!


Originally posted by starlock
you really think your flunkies think you know better than marvel?

Not at all,

but evidently far better than your simplicity.



Originally posted by starlock
ive seen in other threads where you are called out for misrepresenting the scans you post and you disappear with your tail between your legs,

I challenge you to find one.


Originally posted by starlock
not everybody can scan and upload pics and such that does not make them wrong, you act like a bully, in Brooklyn New York your called a punk


stfu2




Brooklyn New York?

yawn

the six heroes who force phoenix thru the gate where is that from liar? ultra force where is that? is that not a crossover?

Originally posted by Mr Master
Continues...


A Few members of the X-Men and Ultra Force (SIX in ALL) are sent to battle the ACTUAL PHOENIX FORCE (WITHOUT an AVATAR)

http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/3901/6rh9.th.jpg



"The assembled Heroes are TIRED & BATTERED, the PHOENIX is REBORN and FRESH"

http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/9686/f12xp8.th.jpg
AND they're STILL holding their own



Amber Hunt & Gate tear a Hole through Time & Space,

http://img431.imageshack.us/img431/4613/f13qr4.th.jpg



The Six heroes BEAT (PHYSICALLY) the PHOENIX FORCE into and through the Portal

http://img431.imageshack.us/img431/2667/f14nz2.th.jpg



The PHOENIX FORCE ends up DISPLACED by FOUR Billion Years

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/5469/f15eg2.th.jpg

tell me retard where are these characters from? are all of them from the mainstream marvel universe? well?

it is sad i have to go i would love to school you more the 6 private messages i got in response to you being an idiot makes me want to stay around and put you in your place child,go thru all the threads of mine and mr masters who acts like a child? keep trolling the threads retard

Originally posted by starlock
it is sad i have to go i would love to school you more the 6 private messages i got in response to you being an idiot makes me want to stay around and put you in your place child,go thru all the threads of mine and mr masters who acts like a child? keep trolling the threads retard I'm sorry, but when I read this, I nearly pissed my pants from laughing so hard.


Such ignorance

Originally posted by starlock
tell me retard where are these characters from? are all of them from the mainstream marvel universe? well?

What a baboon.


The Phoenix Force was brought into the Ultraverse from IT'S OWN UNIVERSE!



The Actual PHOENIX FORCE (WITHOUT an AVATAR) again is manipulated

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/4852/f11lk4.th.jpg

"an Ancient Crippled Alien Construct brought the PHOENIX FORCE here by WRENCHING it through the Space/Time Continuum from IT'S NATIVE UNIVERSE"




"The Ship SNARED the PHOENIX FORM from another Dimension to be the driving source"

http://img474.imageshack.us/img474/8838/ayx9.th.jpg



READ NEWB!



While the PHOENIX FORCE is in it's NATURAL STATE


The SHIP, rips a HOLE in Space & Time IN FRONT of the PHOENIX FORCE in it's own Universe

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/6522/p1rc5.th.jpg

"Out of one marvelous Universe and into another"

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/6805/p2ek6.th.jpg



This is why you should READ COMICS! newb

Originally posted by starlock
it is sad i have to go i would love to school you more the 6 private messages i got in response to you being an idiot makes me want to stay around and put you in your place child,

You been here a month and already you have people supposedly coming to you for help.




What'd you promise them?

20 minutes in a Brooklyn Alley?


Originally posted by starlock
go thru all the threads of mine and mr masters who acts like a child?

Aww, are you upset my child,

cause your making an ass of yourself, while delusionally believing anyone is taking you serious.


Originally posted by starlock
keep trolling the threads retard

I rather just keep giving you a good bottom

Originally posted by Galan777
I'm sorry, but when I read this, I nearly pissed my pants from laughing so hard.

Tell me about it,

is this clown for real?


You know, he might be a clone, I've seen my ol' chum do it before.



Originally posted by Galan777
Such ignorance

Originally posted by starlock
you quote from a bio for your own good but then you put down when people say the phoenix was instrumental in galactus's origin which comes from a bio,you really think your flunkies think you know better than marvel?
According to Bios Phoenix isn't anywhere near Herald level....

Surfer's Bio:
http://img132.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ssba7.jpg
http://img132.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ss2sp4.jpg
Phoenix:
http://img86.imageshack.us/my.php?image=phoenixhj5.jpg

Originally posted by thedude1948
According to Bios Phoenix isn't anywhere near Herald level....

Surfer's Bio:
http://img132.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ssba7.jpg
http://img132.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ss2sp4.jpg
Phoenix:
http://img86.imageshack.us/my.php?image=phoenixhj5.jpg

Great freakin find dude.


I had no idea,

so glad the bio agrees with the on panel evidence.

We're all arguing over Phoenix and her limits, (Btw, nice job master.), but what are Onslaught's? And for that matter, which version are we talking about? Onslaught had varying levels of power, but he was far more creative with his abilities in addition to his sheer power. So there's your other reason as to why he can beat her. Regardless of his power, he is much smarter and more dangerous than her. And that's why Phoenix can't win. Example would be when he showed a vision to Hulk of him killing his teammates and taking Onslaught out. Only his teammates saw him doing that, and Onslaught taunted them with the idea of an endless series of visions and never knowing whether they had killed the real one. Could Phoenix pull that off? I think not. Phoenix never demonstrated cunning and tactics anywhere near that level.

Originally posted by Mr Master
the "life force" of the Universe?


What are you talking about?





It's not the most awesome feat, but Phoenix has never done it.





Not on panel.


Galactus's Origin has been depicted THREE times On Panel, NEVER ONCE, was Phoenix mentioned.


If you can find me just ONE comic where this is drawn, I'll agree with you, but since I know your basing this idea on bios or handbooks I know you can't.


Tell me where if anywhere does it mention Phoenix supposedly "enabling Galen to incubate in the Cosmic Egg"....how about even JUST Saving Galactus...


This is the ORIGINAL depiction of Galactus's ORIGIN.
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/6590/eternitymadeg6zvfs1.th.jpg


This is the SECOND time they depicted Galactus's Origin On Panel.

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/1505/g1um9sy5.th.jpg

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/1943/g2va5ro2.th.jpg


And this is the Third:

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/3530/g1qy9.th.jpg

http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/8348/g2kj9.th.jpg

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/618/g3je8.th.jpg


See anything different, yea me neither.

In ALL THREE instances, Eternity or the sentience of the Universe saved Galactus NOT Phoenix, the biatch isn't even Mentioned.


By the way, Do not be confused by the Third depiction, where the sentience is called "the ENIGMA FORCE"

The Enigma Force is what powers Captain Universe, and Captain Universe is the ESSENCE of the UNIVERSE, if He DIES...EVERYONE DIES.

http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/2517/g4fj8.th.jpg

Look hard...and realize Phoenix is NOT even mentioned during the Galactus history lesson.





Negative.


When Xorn shattered the Phoenix Force into a billion pieces, nothing happened to the Universe, or to any life in the Universe.





Thoeretically,

it has never happened on panel.




Stop counting on bios for info LU, that's a total exaggeration.


Genis-vell and Entropy destroyed and recreated Eternity, Phoenix had nothing to do with it (they gave it their own structure)


Wanda remade Eternity several times, (re-ordering it's structure, and PF had nothing to with it)


5 Cosmic Containment Units created from scratch a duplicate 616 Eternity, sustained by the thier own power, PF had nothing to do with it.


The Makers re-structured the Universe that contains the Micro-verse, PF had nothing to with it.


The Infinites re-structured 616 Eternity, again PF had nothing to with it.


Magus and Warlock BOTH REMADE Eternity with an Incomplete Infinity Gauntlet, and still PF had nothing to do with it.


I couls go on but I think you get the picture.




You said without PIS, Phoenix takes this,

without PIS Onslaught has Franklyn Richards powers, (who can create pocket Universe) and Nate Grey's powers which together are FAAAAR beyond DP or the PF.


Phoenix has never even created a Galaxy.


Onslaught 10/10





Thanks for the scans, but disregarding the Bios and author's descriptions of thier characters, while only paying attention to on panel information is not a complete reference either


However, let me regress since Dark Pheonix's storyline occurred way before the retcon of Pheonix's involvement in Galactus's transmigtration from the previous universe.

Also, you gotta understand bro...Marvel, Like DC and Image, Contradicts itself ALL THE TIME.


One day Pheonix is this powerful, one day she's that powerful.



Regardless, although Onslaught is very powerful on the Astral Plane, the only feat he had performed that even suggests he is on Dark Pheonix's level was the creation of the second sun.

However, he can create as many suns as he wants, DP will keep on eating them. What do you thnk would happen if Onslaught was exposed to a blast from one of his own suns ?

I mean if Onslaught's armor was crushed by Hulk, and then his energy body was disrupted by non-mutant hosts, It is very logical and probable that a blast from a star would dissipate that energy he consisted of.



Again, you may yell "PIS ! PIS !" But I consider Dark Pheonix's defeat due to self-sacrafice with a Shiar weapon to be even GREATER PIS.

And you know what? Neither of us should be PULLING that Card since you insist of relying on on-panel evidense only. With all due respect, Mr. Master, you cannot claim that on-panel feats are all that matter, and then scream "that was PIS, so it doesn't count"....it happened. He was defeated in a way that suggests Dark Pheonix could have beaten him even faster.




ALSO, in the Dark Pheonix Saga, DP made it very clear of her abilities to create and destroy. I doubt that was just her bluffing since that was the first time PF inhabitted a human host (at the time the story was written).




Trickster, as for your assertion, you are incorrect. Pheonix has already proven to be able to disrupt one's mentality when she broke Mastermind's self-induced illusion.

I know allot has happened since I was last on, but someone was questioning the validity of Moira's statement about Nate Grey.

1) I think Moira being one of the 3 top mutant experts in the world would know powers and levels of powers well enough to judge.

2) She was using Dark Phoenix as a comparison to his power to give the X-Men some idea of just how strong Nate was. He may be even more powerful then Phoenix. She was just saying he is atleast that strong so that the X-men would have some frame of refference.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Phoenix has never even created a Galaxy.


Onslaught 10/10

I agree with Mr Master, DP loses this fight.

I actually like the Phoenix too, but she isn't winning...

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Thanks for the scans,


Anytime friend.


Originally posted by Lord Urizen
but disregarding the Bios and author's descriptions of thier characters, while only paying attention to on panel information is not a complete reference either

I feel you LU,

but honestly, the only thing that counts for me, is what's drawn, and a bio reference will ONLY be considered IF, it co-incides with the on panel evidence.

basically, if it didn't happen on panel, then it didn't happen.

but that's me, and by no means am I trying to force that style on anyone.


Originally posted by Lord Urizen
However, let me regress since Dark Pheonix's storyline occurred way before the retcon of Pheonix's involvement in Galactus's transmigtration from the previous universe.

This is a good example,

this never happened on panel, so imo, it's inconsequential.


Originally posted by Lord Urizen
also, you gotta understand bro...Marvel, Like DC and Image, Contradicts itself ALL THE TIME.

One day Pheonix is this powerful, one day she's that powerful.

I agree, there's contradictions, I wouldn't say ALL the time though.

Phoenix, since BEFORE DP came into the picture has never been too impressive.

In fact, on her own, the greatest feat ever performed by the Phoenix was eating a Sun.


During the Mkraan Crystal saga,

The Network of interlocking Stasis Fields Phoenix Repaired, was IMPOSSIBLE without the HELP of ALL the X-Men plus Corsair.


The Projection of the Excalibur Watch Tower through out the Multi-verse,

was IMPOSSIBLE without the Interfaces across the Multi-verse being Aligned (it opens a Door to every Universe for a short while) so Phoenix duplicated the first Tower that was located in 616, and the rest of the Towers duplicated simultaneously through out the Multi-verse BECAUSE of the Alignment.


The only other big feat, performed by the White Phoenix of the Crown was Repairing a Future Timeline, she NEEDED the White Hot Room to do that.

She also needed the White Hot Room just to Alter that Timeline, by going into the past and changing Scotts mind about Emma, therefore avoiding the events of Here Comes Tomorrow (yes I know quite cheesy)

There was a big show with the so called "Universe in hands" bit, but that was just a visualization of the Universe which allowed her to see the Future (Here Comes Tomorrow) before she changed it.


Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Regardless, although Onslaught is very powerful on the Astral Plane, the only feat he had performed that even suggests he is on Dark Pheonix's level was the creation of the second sun.

I agree,

well taking out Nate Grey was pretty badass too.


Originally posted by Lord Urizen
However, he can create as many suns as he wants, DP will keep on eating them.

Actually without PIS, a Franklin Richards amped Onsalught oughta be able to create pocket Universes.


Originally posted by Lord Urizen
What do you thnk would happen if Onslaught was exposed to a blast from one of his own suns ?


What do you think would happen to Phoenix if a pocket Universe imploded on top of her?


Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I mean if Onslaught's armor was crushed by Hulk, and then his energy body was disrupted by non-mutant hosts, It is very logical and probable that a blast from a star would dissipate that energy he consisted of.

It would destroy his armor, releasing his Energy Form which is even more powerful still.

And btw, it was Namor, Hulk and Doom together that opened his armor.


And another thing, that same trick they pulled wouldn't work in a Phoenix ALONE versus Onslaught battle, who's going to enter his Energy Form to make him tangible?

Phoenix is on her own in this one.


Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Again, you may yell "PIS ! PIS !" But I consider Dark Pheonix's defeat due to self-sacrafice with a Shiar weapon to be even GREATER PIS.

Nah,

no PIS needed to be yelled, because Phoenix has no help, so no one can enter his Energy Form, (that's what made it PIS in the arc)


Originally posted by Lord Urizen
And you know what? Neither of us should be PULLING that Card since you insist of relying on on-panel evidense only. With all due respect, Mr. Master, you cannot claim that on-panel feats are all that matter, and then scream "that was PIS, so it doesn't count"....it happened.

Woh there friend,

with all due respect I never said it didn't happen, I said it was PIS.

And like I said already, that PIS can not be repeated if Phoenix is fighting him alone.


Originally posted by Lord Urizen
He was defeated in a way that suggests Dark Pheonix could have beaten him even faster.

How so?

Phoenix can't create life on the spot to enter Onslaught's form, she's gonna have to fight for the win.

And when considering Onslaught's cleverness and intelligence mixed with his power, it will be nasty for both parties.



Originally posted by Lord Urizen
ALSO, in the Dark Pheonix Saga, DP made it very clear of her abilities to create and destroy. I doubt that was just her bluffing since that was the first time PF inhabitted a human host (at the time the story was written).

Well, this is where it gets foggy,

Because Phoenix has never created anything even close to a planetary scale on panel.



Bottom line:

I would say Phoenix takes a normal Onsalught with a fight (Xavier and Magneto)

Phoenix loses horribly to an amped up Onslaught (Nate and Franklin or just Franklin alone)

i thought both were beings were pure pyconic energy just that phoenix was more.

Originally posted by jasofisc
i thought both were beings were pure pyconic energy just that phoenix was more. Phoenix isn't really psionic, I mean is she?

No matter how many times you show a scan of Phoenix getting owned though, it doesn't compare to Hulk beating your final form...
Also, this is ol' Dark Phoenix.

The Phoenix Force = Crap Writing

I have no idea why Marvel retconned the Dark Phoenix Saga

Originally posted by bigbran
Phoenix isn't really psionic, I mean is she?
No matter how many times you show a scan of Phoenix getting owned though, it doesn't compare to Hulk beating your final form...


Only that wasn't Onslaught's final form,

his final form was Energy based, which was released when his armor was opened


Onslaught was defeated by the Hulk, Namor and Doom entering his Energy form, thus making him tangible, (so he could be physically hit) then he was jumped and defeated.


But since Phoenix is alone here, that move is out of the picture.


Originally posted by bigbran
Also, this is ol' Dark Phoenix.

And an electro magnetic pulse shattered the Phoenix Entity that's far beyond Dark Phoenix in power.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Only that wasn't Onslaught's final form,

his final form was Energy based, which was released when his armor was opened


Onslaught was defeated by the Hulk, Namor and Doom entering his Energy form, thus making him tangible, (so he could be physically hit) then he was jumped and defeated.


But since Phoenix is alone here, that move is out of the picture.
Obviously I meant the one that got his pooper kicked by Hunkomania.
I know what the final form is, and I messed up.



Originally posted by Mr Master
And an electro magnetic pulse shattered the Phoenix Entity that's far beyond Dark Phoenix in power. Has Onslaught really shown to be able to use all of Mags powers to the fullest?

Originally posted by bigbran
Obviously I meant the one that got his pooper kicked by Hunkomania.

Hunkomania, Namortus ans Doomsva



Originally posted by bigbran
I know what the final form is, and I messed up.

No biggi.



Originally posted by bigbran
Has Onslaught really shown to be able to use all of Mags powers to the fullest?

Tomorrow I'll be posting Onslaught's feats, I don't have them all cropped, but I will by then.

The cat was a monster.

Originally posted by jasofisc
i thought both were beings were pure pyconic energy just that phoenix was more.

Not Phoenix avatars.

The Phoenix Force in it's natural state is.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Hunkomania, Namortus ans Doomsva

Tomorrow I'll be posting Onslaught's feats, I don't have them all cropped, but I will by then.

The cat was a monster. Hulkdog is the one who cracked dem shit though.

I know his feats, but has he ever really fully used Mags powers?
I already basically said who wins.

I'm just seeing if your option is viable as a win in this thread?

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
(Btw, nice job master.),




Originally posted by TricksterPriest
We're all arguing over Phoenix and her limits, but what are Onslaught's?

I'll get nasty tomorrow.



Originally posted by TricksterPriest
And for that matter, which version are we talking about? Onslaught had varying levels of power, but he was far more creative with his abilities in addition to his sheer power. So there's your other reason as to why he can beat her. Regardless of his power, he is much smarter and more dangerous than her. And that's why Phoenix can't win. Example would be when he showed a vision to Hulk of him killing his teammates and taking Onslaught out. Only his teammates saw him doing that, and Onslaught taunted them with the idea of an endless series of visions and never knowing whether they had killed the real one. Could Phoenix pull that off? I think not. Phoenix never demonstrated cunning and tactics anywhere near that level.

Originally posted by bigbran
Hulkdog is the one who cracked dem shit though.

No doubt, after it was weakened by all three though.


Originally posted by bigbran
I know his feats, but has he ever really fully used Mags powers?
I already basically said who wins.

I'm just seeing if your option is viable as a win in this thread?

Yea friend,

he had Mag's and Xavier's powers, Full, he took out Nathanial Richrads with these powers like nothing.

(Nathanial's armor can tap into Franklin's powers) ouch...


I'm telling you bran, this cat was no joke.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Onslaught was defeated by the Hulk, Namor and Doom entering his Energy form, thus making him tangible, (so he could be physically hit) then he was jumped and defeated.

Typo, my bad.


It was actually the Avengers, Fantastic Four, Bruce Banner, Doctor Doom, Namor, and the Scarlet Witch that entered Onslaught's Energy Form.

onslaught wanted the heros to break his shell. Everything the heros did up untell the point they entered him was all according to his plan. If onslaught wanted to he could have slatered them all at he very begining but that was not his goal. His Goal was to become as powerful as possible. Reed states this when hulk broke his shell.

Mr. M your right when you say he's no joke but is he comparable to Galactus?

Originally posted by jasofisc
Mr. M your right when you say he's no joke but is he comparable to Galactus? No.

Going by logic Onslaught can win since Xorneto killed Phoenix with an EMP
Onslaught was able to create such a strong EMP that it took out a city
http://img123.imageshack.us/my.php?image=3ik6.jpg
http://img433.imageshack.us/my.php?image=4lx2.jpg
http://img143.imageshack.us/my.php?image=5lp1.jpg
http://img143.imageshack.us/my.php?image=6uw8.jpg

Originally posted by bigbran
Phoenix isn't really psionic, I mean is she?

No matter how many times you show a scan of Phoenix getting owned though, it doesn't compare to Hulk beating your final form...
Also, this is ol' Dark Phoenix.
Why do you think that Onslaught attacked Hulk with punches?
Onslaught wanted some one to crack his armor so he could get rid of his phisical body

Originally posted by Mr Master
Anytime friend.




Originally posted by Mr Master
I feel you LU,

but honestly, the only thing that counts for me, is what's drawn, and a bio reference will ONLY be considered IF, it co-incides with the on panel evidence.

basically, if it didn't happen on panel, then it didn't happen.

but that's me, and by no means am I trying to force that style on anyone.


That's fine. On panel evidense is always more extensive and clear than a mere bio, but when a bio is written by a comic book writer, you can't claim it invalid.

However, since bios usually contradict the story archs, and even other bios, I can see how they are not entirely reliable.



Originally posted by Mr Master
This is a good example,

this never happened on panel, so imo, it's inconsequential.


Which is why I dropped it.




Originally posted by Mr Master
I agree, there's contradictions, I wouldn't say ALL the time though.

Phoenix, since BEFORE DP came into the picture has never been too impressive.

In fact, on her own, the greatest feat ever performed by the Phoenix was eating a Sun.



True. But you also forgot interstellar travel within seconds (rivalling Silver Surfer's capabilities), and being perfectly fine after having a star explode right in her face.



Originally posted by Mr Master
I agree,

well taking out Nate Grey was pretty badass too.



No Doubt, No Doubt



Originally posted by Mr Master
Actually without PIS, a Franklin Richards amped Onsalught oughta be able to create pocket Universes.


Without PIS, Pheonix would have not been able to destroy herself with a Shair gun, considering that a super nova did nothing to her before.


Originally posted by Mr Master
What do you think would happen to Phoenix if a pocket Universe imploded on top of her?


The same that would happen if a Sun exploded on Onslaught.....they'd both probably be toast.



Originally posted by Mr Master
It would destroy his armor, releasing his Energy Form which is even more powerful still.

And btw, it was Namor, Hulk and Doom together that opened his armor.


And another thing, that same trick they pulled wouldn't work in a Phoenix ALONE versus Onslaught battle, who's going to enter his Energy Form to make him tangible?

Phoenix is on her own in this one.


Pheonix can probably sacrafice an avatar if necessary, but I doubt she would have to use that method. Dark Pheonix is way more powerful than anyone who fought Onslaught one on one.

I know Nate Grey is bad ass, but what has he done that compares him to Dark Pheonix ?



Originally posted by Mr Master
Nah,

no PIS needed to be yelled, because Phoenix has no help, so no one can enter his Energy Form, (that's what made it PIS in the arc)



She doesn't need help. If you want a battle with NO PIS, then the lack of PIS has to be done on both sides.

If you want to discount the cheesy way they beat Onslaught (which logically shouldn't have worked), then you also have to discount Dark Pheonix being obliterated by a Shiar Weapon, or Pheonix Force being impaled with a laser beam.





Originally posted by Mr Master
Woh there friend,

with all due respect I never said it didn't happen, I said it was PIS.

And like I said already, that PIS can not be repeated if Phoenix is fighting him alone.


Didn't mean to come off as disrespectful, but like I said the lack of PIS must be done on both accounts.



Originally posted by Mr Master
How so?

Phoenix can't create life on the spot to enter Onslaught's form, she's gonna have to fight for the win.

And when considering Onslaught's cleverness and intelligence mixed with his power, it will be nasty for both parties.



I agree with this completely. Onslaught is intelligent and cunning , while Dark Pheonix is arrogant and impulsive.



Originally posted by Mr Master
Well, this is where it gets foggy,

Because Phoenix has never created anything even close to a planetary scale on panel.

True, but I honestly think she was too powerful to use against the X-Men as a villian, since realistically no one had a chance at defeating her at the time the story was written.

They had to limit her to make the reality of the X-Men's survival more believable (having Jean Grey switch conciousness back and forth was a decent touch)

I think after having her eat a star and make it super nova, they couldn't keep having her do rediculous feats, because then her defeat would have been more unbeleivable than Onslaught's.





Originally posted by Mr Master
Bottom line:

I would say Phoenix takes a normal Onsalught with a fight (Xavier and Magneto)

Phoenix loses horribly to an amped up Onslaught (Nate and Franklin or just Franklin alone)



I'll leave it at this, since I am rather ignorant of Franklyn Richards and Nate Grey alone, however, considering Onslaught had consumed thier forms, he should have been a lot more powerful than his series displayed.

Originally posted by Starhawk
I know allot has happened since I was last on, but someone was questioning the validity of Moira's statement about Nate Grey.

1) I think Moira being one of the 3 top mutant experts in the world would know powers and levels of powers well enough to judge.

2) She was using Dark Phoenix as a comparison to his power to give the X-Men some idea of just how strong Nate was. He may be even more powerful then Phoenix. She was just saying he is atleast that strong so that the X-men would have some frame of refference. The question, my young friend, was not if he had the power, (or the potential to reach that level), but whether or not he had the ability to properly wield that type of power, at that particular time. But what's more important is that he didn't even get the chance to use it, as he was pretty much blindsided by Onslaught when he was captured, so how can you use that as a feat for Onslaught against Nate?

Your A-B-C logic is ridiculous and holds no water because A) Nate didn't get the chance to fight back, and B) it was unclear whether or not he was capable of using the type of power he was blessed with, to its fullest potential. Kind of stupid for you to say Onlsaught 'took him out' when there wasn't even a fight.

Dark Phoenix was proven to be a universal threat...or at least a galactic-level threat. Onslaught on his own, (without Franklin's power), barely got past the X-Men in their initial battle when they were fighting on the X-grounds...and he's a universal threat? Come on...

Actually, in their inital fight the X-men could do nothing to him, he decimated them.

And Onslaught absorbed nate and there was nothing Nate could do to stop it.

Nate could possibly be even more powerful then the phoenix, Moira used the phoenix as a comparassion to his power cause it was the highest the X-men had on record. She was trying to give them an idea of the danger he posed.

Onslaught couldn't actually be destoryed, they just split him out amoung the Avengers and Fantastic Four.

Onslaught even stated he could give the phoenix power to Jean and take it away.

well said Lord Urizen!!
i would hedg a bet that every time the phoenix has been defeated its becaus of pis. i meen whos guna beat the big bang in bird form with out pis?
MR.M
one of your arguments is that the phoenix can not create life , there for once onslaught is in energy for she wont be able to do any thing to him. but the first feat the force did in comics was to create a new jean gray body to in habit with memorys soul and all.
in her power description it clearly states she can "create life"
"Potentially limitless control over cosmic and psionic energies, Reality manipulation, the ability to tap into energies reserved for the future at the expense of future life, can raise the dead as well as create life, can amplify powers to incalculable levels, fly in the vacuum of space without protection."

so its on panel and in bio.
do u agree that u are wrong on that ?

now even if she did not beat him that way she could most likly absorb or controle him seing as how he is psi energy and she is the living embodyment of all psi energy.

"Phoenix Force is a child of the universe. It is the nexus of ALL psionic energy which does, has, and ever will exist in all realities of the omniverse,

Originally posted by xjustice69x
i meen whos guna beat the big bang in bird form with out pis?



Show me ONE scan of Phoenix, Destroying, Remaking or Creating a Universe.

If you don't have one, tell me what issue it's in, and I'll post it for you to prove myself wrong.

I have practically ALL of her appearances scanned.


pointandlaugh Big Bang


Originally posted by xjustice69x
MR.M
one of your arguments is that the phoenix can not create life , there for once onslaught is in energy for she wont be able to do any thing to him. but the first feat the force did in comics was to create a new jean gray body to in habit with memorys soul and all.

The Phoenix Force's first feat was projecting the Excalibur Tower across the Multi-verse VIA the INTERFACE Alingment.


As for that other feat your talking about,

Phoenix created a single body and imbued itself within it.

You call that life?


Where are you getting Phoenix created a Soul?



Originally posted by xjustice69x
in her power description it clearly states she can "create life"
"Potentially limitless control over cosmic and psionic energies, Reality manipulation, the ability to tap into energies reserved for the future at the expense of future life, can raise the dead as well as create life, can amplify powers to incalculable levels, fly in the vacuum of space without protection."

so its on panel and in bio.

Yada yada yi,

All that is an exaggeration with the exception of, "fly in the vacuum of space without protection"

On Panel Phoenix has NEVER created Life, or Souls,

Phoenix has NEVER been depicted with "limitless control over Cosmic or psionic energies"... so the term "Potentially" was justly included in your statement.

Galactus can "Potentially" absorb the Multi-verse, am I going to put Galactus at a Multi-versal level, uhh, No.


"Raise the dead?" ... That's a funny one,

Phoenix NEEDED the White Hot Room just to Alter a Timeline (in order to rid the Future of the Events of Here Comes Tomorrow)


"can amplify powers to incalculable levels"

Yea, it takes incalculable levels of Power to destroy a sinlge Star,


Originally posted by xjustice69x
do u agree that u are wrong on that ?

I do not agree.

But I do agree that you need to Read more issues concerning the Phoenix before giving anyone a second hand bio lecture that is obviously flawed.


Originally posted by xjustice69x
now even if she did not beat him that way she could most likly absorb or controle him seing as how he is psi energy and she is the living embodyment of all psi energy.

Not in Comic Books.


Originally posted by xjustice69x
"Phoenix Force is a child of the universe. It is the nexus of ALL psionic energy which does, has, and ever will exist in all realities of the omniverse,

An exact quote from wiki, how creative.


Phoenix has NEVER even affected a SINGLE Universe, and now you have her on an Omniversal level. dontgetit

there he is again mr master hehehehehehehehehe
you cant even address the points brung up so you double talk how dull,she creates a body to inhabit and you say huh is that life what a joke
how creative HAHAHAHAHAHAH
who are you to lecture you try to be an expert but you are so bad its really a pity

Originally posted by starlock
there he is again mr master hehehehehehehehehe
you cant even address the points brung up so you double talk how dull,she creates a body to inhabit and you say huh is that life what a joke
how creative HAHAHAHAHAHAH
who are you to lecture you try to be an expert but you are so bad its really a pity

When Mister Master means life he means create life from nothingness to..life !

All she did was copy a pre-existing shell (Herself) then simply dumped her mind in it when her body did a bye-bye.

Originally posted by Starhawk
Actually, in their inital fight the X-men could do nothing to him, he decimated them. He just barely beat them, as they were knocking him around for a while.

You conveniently forget that Onslaught was in possession of Franklin Richards at the time, as well. That makes a HUGE difference.

Originally posted by grey fox
When Mister Master means life he means create life from nothingness to..life !

All she did was copy a pre-existing shell (Herself) then simply dumped her mind in it when her body did a bye-bye.

Thank you fox,


was that really that diffucult to compute for that newb?


jeez, what's happening to kmc?

Originally posted by Mr Master
Thank you fox,


was that really that diffucult to compute for that newb?


jeez, what's happening to kmc?

S'alright

Night guy's

Originally posted by Lord S
He just barely beat them, as they were knocking him around for a while.

You conveniently forget that Onslaught was in possession of Franklin Richards at the time, as well. That makes a HUGE difference.

Re-read X-men: Onsalught, At NO time was he anywhere NEAR defeat. He toyed with them allot but that was it.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
But you also forgot interstellar travel within seconds (rivalling Silver Surfer's capabilities), and being perfectly fine after having a star explode right in her face.

Don't get me wrong, Phoenix is a powerhouse,

I just have to set the record straight when I see fanboys or innocents exaulting her status to equaling the Living Tribunal (which I'm sure you agree is a joke)

Or making her a Multiversal destroyer or even a Universal one, when Phoenix has never even come close to such heights.



ALL the Phoenix Avatars can Repair Universes, that's their function/purpose in the Cosmic Scheme, but Offensively or Defensively they're not all that:

Example:


Here's Giraud, a Phoenix Avatar Healing Eternity:

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/255/giraud2oj3.th.jpg

http://img178.imageshack.us/img178/8007/giraud3ob3.th.jpg


Now here's that same Universal Healer getting whooped by Dormammu:


Dormammu HANDLING Giraud (Phoenix Avatar)
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/3029/f1ps3.th.jpg


Dormammu still HANDLING Giraud (Phoenix Avatar) and the Entire Team at the same time
http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/4268/f2az9.th.jpg


Giraud (Phoenix Avatar) and the Entire Team, stay HANDLED
http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/6695/f3xq2.th.jpg


Now Dormammu is nasty, but he shouldn't be smacking a Universal power around like nothing, expecially when that Universal power has back up.

Just goes to show...




Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Without PIS, Pheonix would have not been able to destroy herself with a Shair gun, considering that a super nova did nothing to her before.

Fair enough.



Originally posted by Lord Urizen
The same that would happen if a Sun exploded on Onslaught.....they'd both probably be toast.

I don't know about that,

Onslaught was untouchable in his Energy Form

http://img471.imageshack.us/img471/9760/o3pa0.th.jpg

And remember, the heroes defeated Onslaught by charging into his Energy Form, (ONLY Non-Mutants) while Franklin was protecting the Heroes inside, this weakened him and made him tangible, thus becoming susceptible to harm by ALL the X-Men that were outside.


And btw, Onslaught can automatically absorb the power of any Mutant just by touching them or they touching him:

http://img79.imageshack.us/img79/8298/o4yf8.th.jpg



Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Pheonix can probably sacrafice an avatar if necessary, but I doubt she would have to use that method. Dark Pheonix is way more powerful than anyone who fought Onslaught one on one.

Well to begin with, she would need many more than one, it took The Avengers, the Fantastic Four, Doctor Doom, Namor, the Scarlet Witch and even Bruce Banner.

Then all the X-Men attacked him as one.


And no one was able to handle Onslaught one on one.

And I also have to disagree that DP is way more powerful than Franky or Nate.


Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I know Nate Grey is bad ass, but what has he done that compares him to Dark Pheonix ?

Nate is basically an enhanced Frankin Richards, because he's older and more experienced.

And Franky can craete pocket Universes at will.

That's how the heroes were saved in the end when Onslaught was dissipated, he created a dimension the size of a Spaldin Ball, and placed the Heroes in it.


Originally posted by Lord Urizen
She doesn't need help. If you want a battle with NO PIS, then the lack of PIS has to be done on both sides.

If you want to discount the cheesy way they beat Onslaught (which logically shouldn't have worked), then you also have to discount Dark Pheonix being obliterated by a Shiar Weapon, or Pheonix Force being impaled with a laser beam.

Fine,

the difference is that Phoenix does not have at her disposal the tactics that were used to defeat Onslaught.


Originally posted by Lord Urizen
True, but I honestly think she was too powerful to use against the X-Men as a villian, since realistically no one had a chance at defeating her at the time the story was written.

They had to limit her to make the reality of the X-Men's survival more believable (having Jean Grey switch conciousness back and forth was a decent touch)

And that's the problem, you hit the head right on,

if X-Men writers wouldn't be so attached to Phoenix by not sharing her with other writers there would be more to say for her, but that clutch they got on her has come back to bite them where it hurts.


What did they do when they had her fight another being of significance?

She goes and picks on a HUNGRY Galactus for no reason.


"I have NEED of SUSTENANCE"
http://img471.imageshack.us/img471/1683/pgba6.th.jpg

Nice try over at the Phoenix camp.



Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I think after having her eat a star and make it super nova, they couldn't keep having her do rediculous feats, because then her defeat would have been more unbeleivable than Onslaught's.

That's not really out of this World in Comics,

Gladiator contained a near super nova.


Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I'll leave it at this, since I am rather ignorant of Franklyn Richards and Nate Grey alone, however, considering Onslaught had consumed thier forms, he should have been a lot more powerful than his series displayed.

Fair enough.

Mr Master your posts seem excellent but little you are saying seems to be new. This illadelph guy says someone else says many of the same things.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=398638&perpage=20&highlight=Stay+Whirly&pagenumber=6

Originally posted by Marius_twa@t
Mr Master your posts seem excellent but little you are saying seems to be new. This illadelph guy says someone else says many of the same things.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=398638&perpage=20&highlight=Stay+Whirly&pagenumber=6

Your going to have to elaborate,

I visited that link, but I have no idea what it means.

Who is someone else?

phoenix is on the power level of Galactus. Do you think Onslaught is on the level with Galactus? mr. M I know Onslaught is a beast in fact the only reason he was defeated at all was because he didn't think the heros would kill themselves to stop him. Everything up to that point was all a part of his plan. But being as powerful as phoenix I don't know.

Onslaught offered to restore Jean's connection to the Phoenix Force. And that suggests he has influance over it. Hence more powerfull.

Originally posted by Starhawk
Re-read X-men: Onsalught, At NO time was he anywhere NEAR defeat. He toyed with them allot but that was it. I didn't say he was near defeat...all I am saying is that it wasn't the curbstomb you make it out to be.

Yes it was, he was playing with them, letting them think they had a chance and then he kicked their asses.

Originally posted by jasofisc
phoenix is on the power level of Galactus. Do you think Onslaught is on the level with Galactus? mr. M I know Onslaught is a beast in fact the only reason he was defeated at all was because he didn't think the heros would kill themselves to stop him. Everything up to that point was all a part of his plan. But being as powerful as phoenix I don't know.

Normal Onslaught is basically a mix of Xavier and Magneto amped.

This version of Onslaught did show some kind of dominance over the connection of Phoenix and Jean.


There was never a full blown battle between them, but the edge leans towards Onslaught, but I wouldn't say 100%.


Now Onslaught amped by Franky alone in addition to his normal enhancement, should defeat Phoenix quite easily, throw Nate into the mix, it should be overkill.

Well, I'm kinda new at this, but I remember seeing a scan of Dark Phoenix destroying a Universe. It didn't take place in the 616, so I'm not sure if it's canon or not.

I also remember reading that Dark Phoenix was calculated to be on the same level as Galactus, and a bigger threat (though this does not mean she was more powerful). Does it stand or was it retconned?