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Which in your opinion is greater, going purely by on panel feats?

The Enigma Force is the what sustains Captain Universe, (the life essence of the Universe) Captain Universe dies, and ALL life in the Universe dies.


The Enigma Force is as essential to the Universe as the Universe itself, while the Phoenix Force is a child of the Universe, that has died without affecting the Universe.


Enigma Force 10/10

The enigma force is also what powers Galactus.

Originally posted by Board Walker
Which in your opinion is greater, going purely by on panel feats?

i do some research

Originally posted by Mr Master
The Enigma Force is the what sustains Captain Universe, (the life essence of the Universe) Captain Universe dies, and ALL life in the Universe dies.


The Enigma Force is as essential to the Universe as the Universe itself, while the Phoenix Force is a child of the Universe, that has died without affecting the Universe.


Enigma Force 10/10

BULLshit another attempt to demean the Phoenix Force through lies or was it just very poor knowledge.

Essential to the universe as the universe itself? Yeah that makes sense


The Phoenix is the Big Bang that spawned the universe and as the Big Bang it is the ambient energies that saturate reality. As stated on panel it is the sum and substance of all that lives, the very life force of reality.

The Phoenix Force cannot die because it is life. Its avatars can die, thats something different and totally irrelevant to this debate. Please learn to be objective and post that in debate.


The Enigma Force is a power that resides within the alternate dimension known as the Microverse. All it is is the energies of a future Galactus that had been turned into a star by Reed Richards in an alternate future. This power source was discovered by Prince Wayfinder who tapped into it and used it to take him and his people to the Microverse whereupon Galactus' energies dispersed in the Microverse becoming an ambient power source the inhabitants there worshipped. It is neither essential to reality or the life force of reality.

Captain Universe dies the Enigma Force finds another host.

The Enigma Force was recently seen on panel empowering Sue Richards as the new CU and she could barely hold her own against Gladiator.

The Enigma Force enhances its hosts natural abilities fiftyfold. That is all. If youre human then you wont be as powerful as a mutant who gains this power. Either way its not particularly impressive and contrary to what biased posters will have you believe it is not essential to the universe.

If more Bull is posted scans from current continuity will follow to highlight said Bull.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
BULLshit another attempt to demean the Phoenix Force through lies or was it just very poor knowledge.

Essential to the universe as the universe itself? Yeah that makes sense


The Phoenix is the Big Bang that spawned the universe and as the Big Bang it is the ambient energies that saturate reality. As stated on panel it is the sum and substance of all that lives, the very life force of reality.

The Phoenix Force cannot die because it is life. Its avatars can die, thats something different and totally irrelevant to this debate. Please learn to be objective and post that in debate.


The Enigma Force is a power that resides within the alternate dimension known as the Microverse. All it is is the energies of a future Galactus that had been turned into a star by Reed Richards in an alternate future. This power source was discovered by Prince Wayfinder who tapped into it and used it to take him and his people to the Microverse whereupon Galactus' energies dispersed in the Microverse becoming an ambient power source the inhabitants there worshipped. It is neither im

Captain Universe dies the Enigma Force finds another host.

The Enigma Force was recently seen on panel empowering Sue Richards as the new CU and she could barely hold her own against Gladiator.

The Enigma Force enhances its hosts natural abilities fiftyfold. That is all. If youre human then you wont be as powerful as a mutant who gains this power. Either way its not particularly impressive and contrary to what biased posters will have you believe it is not essential to the universe.

If more Bull is posted scans from current continuity will follow to highlight said Bull.




As little respect that I have for GS, I have to agree on one point...

Dark Pheonix herself stated she is Life Personified.....it has been stated numerous times that she is the Life Force of the Universe embodied, at least in 616 continuum...

She may not be responsible for the mere existance of Marvel 616 Universe, but she is responsible for the LIFE that exists in Marvel 616.


Pheonix Force being called a "Child of the Universe" definately puts her in a level below Eternity, however, it does not negate her role as the instigator of the cycle of life.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
As little respect that I have for GS, I have to agree on one point...

Dark Pheonix herself stated she is Life Personified.....it has been stated numerous times that she is the Life Force of the Universe embodied, at least in 616 continuum...

She may not be responsible for the mere existance of Marvel 616 Universe, but she is responsible for the LIFE that exists in Marvel 616.


Pheonix Force being called a "Child of the Universe" definately puts her in a level below Eternity, however, it does not negate her role as the instigator of the cycle of life.

Child of the Universe is a statement Galactus used to refer to the Phoenix when he was relating to the Firebird the manifestation of the Force its nature. That it is an expression of the universal life force within reality. It was NOT a statement defining the Force as a whole to be something created by the universe.

With that in mind your Eternity statement is incorrect. Eternity himself is created after the universe is formed. He is its sentience. Eternity himself stated it is the Phoenix that spawns him after the end of the last cycle.

Learn your Phoenix stuff as opposed to posting inaccuracy like its fact.

Read "the Sword in the star the story of Wayfinder" or the Micronauts fortunately my uncle lent my brother the issues. The Enigma force is not so much and neither is the Unipower from which it is derived.

Originally posted by Molly Hayes
Read "the Sword in the star the story of Wayfinder" or the Micronauts fortunately my uncle lent my brother the issues. The Enigma force is not so much and neither is the Unipower from which it is derived.

You go girl!!

Good to see another poster who actually reads comics.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You go girl!!

Good to see another poster who actually reads comics.

Wow the great Galactic storm complimented me!

Originally posted by Molly Hayes
Wow the great Galactic storm complimented me!

i LOVED the micronauts . . .

good to see you, ill. hope the new year is a little more kind to you and your love life than the previous year was . . .

Originally posted by Molly Hayes
Wow the great Galactic storm complimented me!

Originally posted by GalacticStorm


Originally posted by illadelph12

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
BULLshit another attempt to demean the Phoenix Force through lies or was it just very poor knowledge.

Essential to the universe as the universe itself? Yeah that makes sense


The Phoenix is the Big Bang that spawned the universe and as the Big Bang it is the ambient energies that saturate reality. As stated on panel it is the sum and substance of all that lives, the very life force of reality.

The Phoenix Force cannot die because it is life. Its avatars can die, thats something different and totally irrelevant to this debate. Please learn to be objective and post that in debate.


The Enigma Force is a power that resides within the alternate dimension known as the Microverse. All it is is the energies of a future Galactus that had been turned into a star by Reed Richards in an alternate future. This power source was discovered by Prince Wayfinder who tapped into it and used it to take him and his people to the Microverse whereupon Galactus' energies dispersed in the Microverse becoming an ambient power source the inhabitants there worshipped. It is neither essential to reality or the life force of reality.

Captain Universe dies the Enigma Force finds another host.

The Enigma Force was recently seen on panel empowering Sue Richards as the new CU and she could barely hold her own against Gladiator.

The Enigma Force enhances its hosts natural abilities fiftyfold. That is all. If youre human then you wont be as powerful as a mutant who gains this power. Either way its not particularly impressive and contrary to what biased posters will have you believe it is not essential to the universe.

If more Bull is posted scans from current continuity will follow to highlight said Bull.

Is there any scan which proves that phoenix is big bang apart from reed's statement ? I have heard that watcher and eternity too once said that phoenix is big bang but i have never seen scan. If you have scan then post it

Originally posted by Sprinkler
Is there any scan which proves that phoenix is big bang apart from reed's statement ? I have heard that watcher and eternity too once said that phoenix is big bang but i have never seen scan. If you have scan then post it
Nope, recently in AvX Tony stated that PF was born from the big bang.

Rachel-Phoenix fought Galactus during which it was stated that she could draw on power from *all* the stars in the universe.

The Enigma force is pretty awesome, but much smaller in nature.

Originally posted by Q99
Rachel-Phoenix fought Galactus during which it was stated that she could draw on power from *all* the stars in the universe.

It's actually even more incredible than that. He stated the PF draws power from ALL future/potential life.

Classic PF wins. Current PF probably loses after a good fight.

Phoenix in a slaughter

Originally posted by zopzop
It's actually even more incredible than that. He stated the PF draws power from ALL future/potential life.

Classic PF wins. Current PF probably loses after a good fight.

ya know, even with that statement I still find that a bit limiting. Considering draining all "potential life". If she continues to draw from that power, her source will essentially be depleted due to that potential decreasing in size. From that statement it appears that overtime her power in fact may get weaker and weaker if she chose to go that route.

Originally posted by Mr.SunKing
ya know, even with that statement I still find that a bit limiting. Considering draining all "potential life". If she continues to draw from that power, her source will essentially be depleted due to that potential decreasing in size. From that statement it appears that overtime her power in fact may get weaker and weaker if she chose to go that route.
You realize "she" had more options than that don't you? Rachel herself explained it in her battle vs Necrom.

The PF can draw upon the elemental forces of the universe (as well as all unborn/potential life).

Originally posted by zopzop
You realize "she" had more options than that don't you? Rachel herself explained it in her battle vs Necrom.

The PF can draw upon the elemental forces of the universe (as well as all unborn/potential life).
not talking about that, just that aspect.

Originally posted by Mr.SunKing
not talking about that, just that aspect.
Shut up

Galactus even said it was infinite or something.

She was about as powerful as the hungry Galactus, she just didn't wear down. Infinite stamina. At least that's what the implication was.

Not to say she can't amp off sources

Either way though. The Enigma Force has nowhere near that level of power

Which is more powerful Enigma Force or Power Cosmic?

Originally posted by zopzop
Shut up

Galactus even said it was infinite or something.
ease up guy

I'm aware of what Galactus says, but its what he says about "denying them existence" is what got me, in that aspect ruining that potential depletes "that" specific source. Kinda hard to draw on potential when its no longer there.

Originally posted by Mr.SunKing
ease up guy
I was kidding. Jeez......


Let me post the scan if I can find it. Unless I'm misremembering it was outright stated that it was an infinite power source that the PF can draw on.

I'm pretty sure Phoenix Force is more powerful

i don't think it's quite as clear cut as many think. the EF was the sentient force that powered the microverse--an entire universe unto itself. i think the 2 are very similar in fact. the pf tends to give its wielder more power than the EF gives, but i think conceptually they are very close in terms of overall power and perhaps even purpose. i'd say this is a stalemate, though were it a battle between wielders (which would be VERY cool to see) i'd say the pf wielder would likely take it.

Who's wielded EF force like Jean has wielded PF.

If it's the "Enigma Force" of its own accord (eg. not empowering someone)
then it's a stalemate against PF (on paper)

But the Enigma Force has the greater feat, while the PF has the better hype.
(feats without stipulations that is)

Originally posted by Mr Master

But the Enigma Force has the greater feat)

Which is?

From what I've read, the Phoenix Force should win, and it's not even close.

Originally posted by Rage.Of.Olympus
Which is?

From what I've read, the Phoenix Force should win, and it's not even close.

well, if i remember my micronauts correctly, the EF was going to destroy the universe (microverse) had the micronauts not sacrificed themselves. it is also the sentient energy that allowed the microverse to exist, and it was the power that prevented our universe and the microverse from destroying each other via the spacewall creation. not sure that is what he's talking about (been a long while since i looked through my micronauts stuff) but in the microverse, the ef was...pretty THE power. the uni-power itself is only a minor aspect of the ef. outside the microverse though (afaik) the full nature of the ef has never been explored.

Originally posted by leonidas

well, if i remember my micronauts correctly, the EF was going to destroy the universe (microverse) had the micronauts not sacrificed themselves. it is also the sentient energy that allowed the microverse to exist, and it was the power that prevented our universe and the microverse from destroying each other via the spacewall creation. not sure that is what he's talking about (been a long while since i looked through my micronauts stuff) but in the microverse, the ef was...pretty THE power. the uni-power itself is only a minor aspect of the ef. outside the microverse though (afaik) the full nature of the ef has never been explored.


The Uni-Power (a minor aspect) is also intrinsically connected to Eternity/Infinity. (mysteriously though)

The EF's full potential is impossible to say imo, I know my Micronauts,
but it is without doubt at the very least able to sustain indefinitely under its own power
a cosmic scale creation like the Microverse.

Beating a hungry Galactus in a prolonged fight is a more impressive feat than destroying the microverse imo.

Originally posted by Epicurus
Beating a hungry Galactus in a prolonged fight is a more impressive feat than destroying the microverse imo.
Prolonged fight? You talking about Rachel's one-shot?

^ Yeah it was prolonged. I don't think he was referring to what happened in Excalibur#25. There were other events going on in Excalibur#61 throughout the course of the comic.

Notice how it says meanwhile at the top left hand corner of the page as it shifts back and forth between these different fight scenes.

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/17424551_image.jpg http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/17424552_image.jpg http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t1/17424553_image.jpg

Originally posted by Sundipped

^ Yeah it was prolonged. Excalibur#61 throughout the course of the comic.

Notice how it says meanwhile at the top left hand corner of the page as it shifts back and forth between these different fight scenes.

Wut up SunnyD, that wouldn't have been enough for me,
but after reviewing the issue just now, I noticed many occurrences
were going on "while" they were battling. Your logic is sound.

So, I must agree with you, and with Kandy's assertion.

But I disagree, that it's a better feat than sustaining indefinitely the cosmic size Microverse.
(it makes it worse for Rachel ... she was stalemated for a good while by Hungry G)

That aside, Alan Davis artwork, man I remembah!

Originally posted by Mr Master
Wut up SunnyD, that wouldn't have been enough for me,
but after reviewing the issue just now, I noticed many occurrences
were going on "while" they were battling. Your logic is sound.

So, I must agree with you, and with Kandy's assertion.

But I disagree, that it's a better feat than sustaining indefinitely the cosmic size Microverse.
(it makes it worse for Rachel ... she was stalemated for a good while by Hungry G)
But in Rachel's defense, she holds back. Remember during the Necrom fight she straight up admitted to it, saying if she resorted to Necrom's tactics they would have destroyed the universe.

Originally posted by zopzop

But in Rachel's defense, she holds back. Remember during the Necrom fight she straight up admitted to it, saying if she resorted to Necrom's tactics they would have destroyed the universe.
Give the Silver Surfer enough time and he can destroy the contents of the universe too.

Well, might be stretching a bit but my point is, that's something they "may have" accomplished with time,
but Rachel also literally stated:
that neither herself or Necrom had the power out-put to take out the Solar System,
which is why Necrom had to use his surroundings to do it.
(a couple moons, a planet or two, and finally the gas giant to finish the job)

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/17424739_PF.jpg

So whatever her "not holding back" potential is ... it's below Solar System buster.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Give the Silver Surfer enough time and he can destroy the contents of the universe too.

Well, might be stretching a bit but my point is, that's something they "may have" accomplished with time,
but Rachel also literally stated:
that neither herself or Necrom had the power out-put to take out the Solar System,
which is why Necrom had to use his surroundings to do it.
(a couple moons, a planet or two, and finally the gas giant to finish the job)

http://s4d3.turboimagehost.com/t/17424739_PF.jpg

So whatever her "not holding back" potential is ... it's below Solar System buster.
Yes, but the very next panel says that the PF isn't a power in and of itself but that it has the ability to tap into the elemental forces of the universe and they are near infinite. That's why she didn't want to resort to attacking him like he was her, they would have destroyed the universe.

She held back.

Originally posted by zopzop

Yes, but the very next panel says that the PF isn't a power in and of itself but that it has the ability to tap into the elemental forces of the universe and they are near infinite. That's why she didn't want to resort to attacking him like he was her, they would have destroyed the universe.

She held back.
That's inconsequential concerning the amount she did possess.

But the scan is cut and dry. She literally gauged her max power.
Rachel not only stated it, but it was proven with Necrom's actions.
She isn't "holding back" ... she had to resort to plan b tactics to win.
"destroy the universe?" ... yea well, a solar system at a time perhaps using gas giants to help with the solar systems.

Anyway, classic full PF is a power that can destroy the contents of a What If reality, not bad.
But with paltry durability always at its side.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Wut up SunnyD, that wouldn't have been enough for me,
but after reviewing the issue just now, I noticed many occurrences
were going on "while" they were battling. Your logic is sound.

So, I must agree with you, and with Kandy's assertion.

But I disagree, that it's a better feat than sustaining indefinitely the cosmic size Microverse.
(it makes it worse for Rachel ... she was stalemated for a good while by Hungry G)

That aside, Alan Davis artwork, man I remembah!

I agree that the feat pales in comparison although I wouldn't call it a stalemate. It was more like Big G steadily losing until he was finally depleted of energy to near death.

Yeah the artwork was great. That's why I blew up the scans.

Originally posted by Mr Master
That's inconsequential concerning the amount she did possess.

But the scan is cut and dry. She literally gauged her max power.
Rachel not only stated it, but it was proven with Necrom's actions.
She isn't "holding back" ... she had to resort to plan b tactics to win.
"destroy the universe?" ... yea well, a solar system at a time perhaps using gas giants to help with the solar systems.

Anyway, classic full PF is a power that can destroy the contents of a What If reality, not bad.
But with paltry durability always at its side.
I don't know my friend, I think you're selling the Classic PF short. Remember when it looked like the PF was about to bite the dust? All the stars in the universe winked out. The Watcher even commented that the universe would be nothing more than an infinite void with not even the smallest potential for life :
http://s16.postimg.org/wi3qxmkg1/2309190_excalibur02520hz1.jpg
That's a pretty major power right there. Every star in the universe, according to Kubik "the first and in many ways the greatest of the principalities".

And regarding the Rachel/Necrom fight :
http://s16.postimg.org/c9gdbwl4x/1640167_phoenix_rachel_vs_necrom_07.jpg
Who knows how long it would have taken before they would have destroyed the universe if she fought using Necrom's tactics, keep in mind the escalation that was going on : planets, igniting worlds, then destroying solar systems (he was ramping it up pretty fast until Rachel kamikazeed him), but according to her (and hence the writer) they WOULD have destroyed 616.

Keep in mind I'm not saying current PF wins (I already said I think it'd lose), but Classic PF is a different story.

Originally posted by Mr Master
But I disagree, that it's a better feat than sustaining indefinitely the cosmic size Microverse.

^
Originally posted by zopzop

I don't know my friend, I think you're selling the Classic PF short. Remember when it looked like the PF was about to bite the dust? All the stars in the universe winked out. The Watcher even commented that the universe would be nothing more than an infinite void with not even the smallest potential for life :

That's a pretty major power right there. Every star in the universe, according to Kubik "the first and in many ways the greatest of the principalities".
Right. The contents of a universe. (stars then galaxies which are made up of stars etc.)

But time and space would go on, so would the other concepts who do not need humanity to be.
So would self sustaining civilizations, or lone beings that don't need stars.
I'm not just talking its been done before On Panel. Like even without Eternity,
a self-sustained world kept on existing forever while their universe around them imploded,
into literally nothingness immediately after Eternity/Death took their consciousness elsewhere.

Stars are only important (in the Kubik scenario) due to the fact they sustain most life. (humanoid/alien whathaveyou)
But like he also added, they are "fragile" things. (a jelly bean in his hand)

Hey did you know that it's common life that needs stars that actually empowers the PF.
Originally posted by zopzop

And regarding the Rachel/Necrom fight :

Who knows how long it would have taken before they would have destroyed the universe if she fought using Necrom's tactics, keep in mind the escalation that was going on : planets, igniting worlds, then destroying solar systems (he was ramping it up pretty fast until Rachel kamikazeed him), but according to her (and hence the writer) they WOULD have destroyed 616.
They weren't destroying solar systems Zop, not even one outright.
Necrom took chunks out first then ignited a gas giant to finalize the destruction,
that's as far as they were going according to Rachel's own words.

Imo, Rachel would've helped destroy solar systems faster if she had joined Necrom's maneuvers,
but I also think that statement is hyperbolic, cause the circumstances
would've had to been them fighting without interruption for a very long time, (many solar systems in a galaxy)
before taking out the universe imo.
Originally posted by zopzop

Keep in mind I'm not saying current PF wins (I already said I think it'd lose), but Classic PF is a different story.
I respect your opinion good friend.

While Rachael in her clash with Shadow King, are tearing asunder the boundaries of reality witnessing the forces that can reshape creation.
http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/5139/xtf3p2627.th.jpg
http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/5139/xtf3p2627.jpg