Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

I dopn't think Vader got much more powerful from TESB to RotJ and he performed best dueling-wise in TESB. Fights on the Invisible Hand where the first duel took place in RotS. Tyranus doesn't know that Vader was once the man that killed him. Ben will not let Dooku kill him like he let Vader. Who takes it?

Dude, Vader himself > Tyrannus. The BIGGEST THREAD HERE PROVED THAT (Vader vs. Tyrannus: 1033 posts and like 50+ pages). With Obi-Wan this is overkill.

Two words - Force lightning.

Ahem, those two words had like five pages to themselves of arguments. Still, Vader won.

Originally posted by Faunus
Two words - Force lightning.

It would certainly disable and kill Vader - if it hit him. AotC Obi-Wan, again, handled Count Dooku's lightning without any difficulty. Given that, as Vader, he is calm and collected, I don't see why he shouldn't be able to do the same - which could allow Obi-Wan to attack and distract Count Dooku.

If I remember correctly, Vader is 80% of RotJ Sidious. If Dooku's stronger than him, it's not by much.

Originally posted by Gideon
It would certainly disable and kill Vader - if it hit him. AotC Obi-Wan, again, handled Count Dooku's lightning without any difficulty. Given that, as Vader, he is calm and collected, I don't see why he shouldn't be able to do the same - which could allow Obi-Wan to attack and distract Count Dooku.

If I remember correctly, Vader is 80% of RotJ Sidious. If Dooku's stronger than him, it's not by much.

Excuse me for asking, isn't the lightsaber hilt made of electrum? Electrum is an alloy of silver and gold, and a good conductor of electricity.

In this case, if Dooku decided to play things out tactically, wouldn't he just send his blast of lightning to aim for Vader's lightsaber hilt, thus providing a conductor for the lightning to enter Vaders mechanical body and screw him over?

Ben might be a bit of a problem...but he's out of practice. Dooku could take out Vader and isolate Kenobi, if what I said works out.

And couldn't Vader move his lightsaber down and bock the Lightning with the laser, instead of the hilt?

And yet when Dooku fired Lightning at Obi-Wan, Kenobi seemed to block it with the laser proper quite easily.

Were Obi-Wan and Mace's lightsaber not made of electrum? Because Obi-Wan stopped Dooku's lightning with no ill effects, and the only trouble that Mace had came from the sheer force of Sidious's lightning - and the power behind it.

And, honestly, Zephiel - is the substance of the hilt itself going to be the primary weapon of your argument?



Honestly, dude, I don't see that happening. But even if that is the case, how would Count Dooku know that the lightsaber is made from electrum, without analyzing it, first? Is electrum easily spotted at a glance?



I don't see Dooku taking out Obi-Wan and Vader. Like I said, Vader's supposedly 80% of Sidious by RotJ (I keep forgetting if that is his potential or sheer fighting abolity) - and I don't see Dooku being much more than 80% - if he is at all.

I doubt the lightning will stop Vader. If that is the case, Vader's sheer physical strength could bludgeon Dooku to death as it is, being consistently stronger than Anakin. Obi-Wan would rank higher than just your general "distraction", too.

I don't see Tyranus beating them.

Escape, I don't see Dooku getting past Tyrannus. Is it me or didn't we spend 50+ pages on Vader being greater than Tyrannus? I'm not going all of that again becaue I though we had confirmed that Vader > Tyrannus.

Well Vader, unlike Mace, seems to be extremely susceptible to the effects of lightning. Didn't Palpatine say that?



This is a loose argument if anything. I am not actively trying to prove something...just trying to show people different possibilities.



Lightsabers are all made of an alloy of gold and silver, right? Wouldn't that be common knowledge that the Count can use in this battle?

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
Escape, I don't see Dooku getting past Tyrannus. Is it me or didn't we spend 50+ pages on Vader being greater than Tyrannus? I'm not going all of that again becaue I though we had confirmed that Vader > Tyrannus.

Do I see Dooku getting past Tyranus?

No, I don't see Count Dooku defeating Vader. I can see Dooku putting up a hell of a fight - and yes he can win due to Force lightning (but that's if he can hit Vader) - but Vader's mentality has allowed him to make the dark side his tool, so he is no longer the unreasonably aggressive brute that he once was.

That, and he has had more time to study the Sith arts than Count Dooku, thus he logically possesses more of control and experience with them. His physical strength is also consistently strong (moreso than Anakin's), and Count Dooku can't withstand his strength. Finally, Vader has a skill with manipulating the environment against his opponent. That in itself may not stop Dooku, but it'd certainly keep him busy.

Couple that with Obi-Wan, and yeah, I see Dooku going down.

In Rise of Darth Vader, he asked Vader if that is why Vader does not attempt to take the mantle of Sith Master. "Because I possess powers that you lack? Because you know that I could easily overwhelm the delicate electrical devices of your suit?"

But, first, Sidious is - again - more powerful than Count Dooku in the Force by a considerable margin. What is easy for him may not be easy for Count Dooku. That said, I have no doubt that Dooku could overwhelm Vader's suit - but I doubt with a single shot, and then of course, he'd have to hit Vader first.

That, and I doubt he could destroy the lightsaber.



It may be so. But I highly doubt that that possibility is likely going to happen.



I'm confused. Pardon my ignorance of the topic. All lightsabers are made from electrum? And all electrum lightsabers are gold and silver?

LOL Escape, by your previous post I thought you meant that Tyrannus could take on one of his opponents (and defeat them) individually but not both.

Originally posted by Prodigal Knight
LOL Escape, by your previous post I thought you meant that Tyrannus could take on one of his opponents (and defeat them) individually but not both.

No. I can see him beating Obi-Wan (due to a superior mastery of the Force and Obi-Wan was out of practice), but I don't see him beating Vader.

Dooku is individually better than both of them, but I dont see him beating them both simultaneously. Even though ANH Kenobi was out of practice he was still able to keep up and stalemate Vader. But while saying that, he more often than not gets pwned by Dooku as seen in the OT. I grudgingly hand this victory to the duo.

Lol, perhaps Dooku will do his choke/kick manoeuvre on the two again.

Stubborn Rampant.

This is overkill Ox.


@ Rampant, it's called Force-Choke-Throw.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Dooku is individually better than both of them, but I dont see him beating them both simultaneously. Even though ANH Kenobi was out of practice he was still able to keep up and stalemate Vader. But while saying that, he more often than not gets pwned by Dooku as seen in the OT. I grudgingly hand this victory to the duo.

Lol, perhaps Dooku will do his choke/kick manoeuvre on the two again.

I coulda sworn we had this conersation already, you and me. Remember the force choke/ Crush versus Lightning bit we had?

Originally posted by Captain SEX
I coulda sworn we had this conersation already, you and me. Remember the force choke/ Crush versus Lightning bit we had?

I certainly do - and my stance on the matter hasnt change in the slightest. I dont see how Darth Vader could win against a Force Lightning wielding opponent, especially when that opponent is as skillful as Count Dooku. Force Choke can be avoided/countered by breaking the users concentration and I dont see Vader being able to pull off a Force Crush in the middle of a battle.

Rampant, aside from him being unable to use Force lightning - I don't see why Vader isn't more powerful in the Sith ways than Dooku. Given that he had another decade to practice it, I'd guarentee it.

I wouldnt dispute that Vader is more powerful in terms of the darkside, and perhaps the force overall. His raw power is phenomenal and if he was to execute a move like Force Crush then the battle would more than likely be over. However Count Dooku has decades more lightside experience and still a reasonable amount of darkside training. His force powers may lack the raw power of Vaders, but his control and mastery are equal if not greater than Vaders.

If Obi Wan can block the force lightning comfortably I don't see why Vader can't.

When Obi-wan blocked the lightning it wasnt in a battle situation and Dooku certainly didnt put much effort into concealing what he was about to do and the attack itself. It was merely just a quick blast to give Kenobi a taste of how powerful Dooku had become. This is reinforced by the fact Dooku then says "Now, back down" - meaning the the attack was never meant to injure Kenobi.


There is also the fact that Dooku never intended to fight either of them at that point. he had statred the Clone wars and was then on his way to Coruscant when he got ambushed by the duo. He knew that Clones would get to the hangar where they were very soon and knew that when that happened he would get captured. Finaly, Dooku wouldnt want to harm Obi-wan. Remember slightly earlier in the movie Dooku was trying to turn Obi-wan. Kenobi is like Dooku's lost grandson.

Okay, Sidious made his comment about his lightning because it was true. He could overwhelm Vaders circuits with lightning as of RODV. You know why? Because he's Sidious. He's powerful. The actual lightning itself would damage Vader, but, it's because it's from Sidious, an uber force user, that Vader would be overwhelmed. What would he have said to Dooku? "Instead of frying your circuits, I couldn't use lightning, because we all know how skin is unphased by electricity, unlike Vader's armor." No.

In fact, what happened when Vader was put up against Sidious' lightning? He showed a greater resistance to it than any other character, and this was after he got beat down and was missing a hand.

Sith lightning, when it isn't blocked, will hurt anyone, regardless of if they are a cyborg or not. Anakin and Luke were both on the ground after a dose, while Vader took it and still managed to throw Sidious down a pit. Now, what is the difference between Sidious' lightning and Dooku's? Obi Wan blocked Dooku's lightning casually with one hand in AOTC, while Sidious' lightning would have overwhelmed Mace Windu had it continued, and it took all of Yodas effort to hold it back.

In end, Lightning is just as effective against non-cyborgs (maybe even more so, given Vaders apparent resistance, that put Luke, a mostly organic person down for the count) when it is unblocked. It's either it fries your circuits or it fries your flesh. The thing is, Vader could block the lightning, because, Obi Wan in AOTC, absorbed it with his saber without a second thought.

Vader for the win.


Oh yeah, and Obi Wan.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Okay, Sidious made his comment about his lightning because it was true. He could overwhelm Vaders circuits with lightning as of RODV. You know why? Because he's Sidious. He's powerful. The actual lightning itself would damage Vader, but, it's because it's from Sidious, an uber force user, that Vader would be overwhelmed. What would he have said to Dooku? "Instead of frying your circuits, I couldn't use lightning, because we all know how skin is unphased by electricity, unlike Vader's armor." No.

Wtf are you talking about. I am hardly denying that Sidious' lightning is far stronger than the Counts. But that is hardy relevant to someone such as Vader - he would short circuit form the lightning regardless of who was using it. The simple fact that he is run by wires, ciruitry and a life support system should be evidence enough that it is irrelevant who is firing the lightning.



I disagree entirely. As soon as he got hit by the lightning he was f*cked. StarWars.com states Vader was bombarded by the Emperor's Force lightning, mortally wounding him. In addition to that, his breathing faltered and became uneven, his suit started smoking and you could see his f*ckin skeleton. I would say that Vader faired a hell of a lot worse than other people exposed to the lightning.



I agree. But after Luke and Anakin got hit with it they were back up and fighting (or flying a ship in Luke's case) withing minutes, even seconds. after Vader got hit he is described as being mortally wounded. You do the maths from there.



Read the above. Vader took it and died as a result.



Well, there is the fact that Sidious' lightning is much stronger. Im hardly arguing that, so there is no need to imply that I am.



Lol, you are comparing apples and oranges. When Dooku fired the lightning at Kenobi it is slow and deliberate. The viewer can clearly see that the lightning was just a small display of Dooku's power. This is reinforced when Dooku says Now, back down. Someone is not likely to say that when their opponent has just withstood the best you had to offer. Also Dooku absolutley pwns Anakin with lightning, which is described like this.

ANAKIN charges across the open space at COUNT DOOKU, who smiles faintly, watching him come. ANAKIN raises his lightsaber. At the last moment, COUNT DOOKU thrusts out an arm and unleashes a blast of Force lightning. ANAKIN is hurled across the room, and slammed into the opposite wall. He slumps to the foot of the wall, semi-conscious.

As you can clearly see, just a small amount of Dooku's lightning had disastrous effects on young Sywalker.

Sidious' lightning was different altogether. He was actually trying to destroy Mace, thus making his lightning more deadly.

The full force of Palpatine's powerful Bolts blasts MACE. He attempts to deflect them with his one good hand, but the force is too great. As blue rays engulf his body, he is flung out the window and falls twenty stories to his death.

This clearly shows that Sidious was fighting with considerable effort.




Read above posts. Vader was mortally wounded when struck by the lightning, unlike any of the organics who get hit with it and are up and rearing to go seconds later. Obi-Wan blocked the lightning easlily because it was a short, sharp display of Dooku's powers. Meant to intimidate as oppose to harm.

Stubborn rampant

read this quote that escape81 have gave

Originally posted by Gideon
Taken from Dark Lord: the Rise of Darth Vader, page 123

Vader's eyes searched Sidious's face. "Did you promise as much to Count Dooku?"

Sidious bared his teeth, but only briefly. "Darth Tyranus knew what he risked, Lord Vader. If he had been stronger in the dark side, you would be dead, and he would be at my right hand."

That seems to bring perspective on the fight. According to Sidious, not only did Dooku know what he risked in dueling Anakin, but Sidious also attributes his defeat as a lack of strength in the dark side in comparison to Vader - and if Dooku had truly been more powerful and stronger in the dark side - he would be in Vader's place as Sith pupil and second most powerful man in the galaxy.

And rampant need i not say that Vader can channel his raw power properly? That he can be calm and call upon the tremendous power of the dark side to make him even stronger? And do i have to remind you he shredded the metal door in vol9 Endgame

Saber = vader
Overall = vader
And since we have ANH obi wan its an overkill because obi1 by Anh is far stronger than the force that he was in ROTS

Rampant, that does not mean that Palpatine was attacking Mace with every last drop of energy he had. Full force in this case means that all of the lightning that the Emperor generated nailed Mace. Unlike the last time, there was nothing that stopped it from hitting him.

Rampant, Dookus lightning can be blocked with a saber. It really is that simple. As for lightning killing Vader, that's true, it does have more of an effect, a fatal one... in the long run. He will be killed by it later on, but, he can actually act through it instead of writhing in pain, like everyone else. In the context of a versus fight, it might even be better than being organic. If Vader gets hit and doesn't block lightning, he can act for a minute. Everyone else would be down on the ground. Of course, the lightning doesn't have a lethal after effect, but, it would knock them unconscious, leaving them at the mercy of their foce-lightning-weilding opponent (which is basically none in a versus fight).

However, Vader could just put up his saber... so... Lightning shouldn't be the sole source of your argument, and Vader seems to excel in all other categories.

Obi Wan either sits and watches a tough fight between the two, eventually ending in Dookus death, or helps Vader give Dooku a beat down.

I don't see Obi-Wan going toe-to-toe with Count Dooku on his best day, and here, out of practice and stale, he's going down hard, removed by a good Force attack or slashed open by his lightsaber. Vader is only really a threat in a duel because of his brute strength, and Dooku could easily keep him at bay with blasts of lightning. Once he's taken care of Kenobi, he'll proceed to take out Vader in a fair contest.

Originally posted by Faunus
I don't see Obi-Wan going toe-to-toe with Count Dooku on his best day, and here, out of practice and stale, he's going down hard, removed by a good Force attack or slashed open by his lightsaber. Vader is only really a threat in a duel because of his brute strength, and Dooku could easily keep him at bay with blasts of lightning. Once he's taken care of Kenobi, he'll proceed to take out Vader in a fair contest.

Vader is only a threat because of his brute strength?

I hardly think so. Vader is, again, 80% of RotJ Sidious. If Dooku is more than that (which I doubt), he is not by much. Vader has also been given ample time to master the Sith arts and dark side methods in such a manner that his mastery likely exceeds Dooku's own - given that he's had a decade longer to practice them.

Sidious also said that Vader's true limitations resided in the "will, not the flesh in Rise of Darth Vader. I'd say he pretty much conquered those by the time of The Empire Strikes Back.

He's also likely had more lightsaber duels in his time, too, given that he spent twenty years hunting down survivors of Order 66.

Well, quite a few people here think Vader alone would beat Tyranus. I disagree but I do think both Vader and Kenobi together would take Tyranus.

Originally posted by Gideon
Vader is only a threat because of his brute strength?

I hardly think so. Vader is, again, 80% of RotJ Sidious. If Dooku is more than that (which I doubt), he is not by much. Vader has also been given ample time to master the Sith arts and dark side methods in such a manner that his mastery likely exceeds Dooku's own - given that he's had a decade longer to practice them.

Sidious also said that Vader's true limitations resided in the "will, not the flesh in Rise of Darth Vader. I'd say he pretty much conquered those by the time of The Empire Strikes Back.

He's also likely had more lightsaber duels in his time, too, given that he spent twenty years hunting down survivors of Order 66.

Well that sith power resides in the will not flesh is damm true, Sion proved this and so did nihilus. But i doubt that vader completely shaken all his despair yet. Because palpatine noted i think that if he shakes all his despair and doubts "The incredible power will reawaken" in him. That means he would be at his FP

And palpatine is the smartes man in SW so id say he is right

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Sith lightning, when it isn't blocked, will hurt anyone, regardless of if they are a cyborg or not. Anakin and Luke were both on the ground after a dose, while Vader took it and still managed to throw Sidious down a pit. Now, what is the difference between Sidious' lightning and Dooku's? Obi Wan blocked Dooku's lightning casually with one hand in AOTC, while Sidious' lightning would have overwhelmed Mace Windu had it continued, and it took all of Yodas effort to hold it back.

In end, Lightning is just as effective against non-cyborgs (maybe even more so, given Vaders apparent resistance, that put Luke, a mostly organic person down for the count) when it is unblocked. It's either it fries your circuits or it fries your flesh. The thing is, Vader could block the lightning, because, Obi Wan in AOTC, absorbed it with his saber without a second thought.


Umm Mace died within seconds of Palpatine's lighting in ROTS and Vader managed to live a while after being blasted by Palpatine's in ROTJ. Just for the record.

Dooku's toast.

I think that's final.

No.

To say that Vader resisted it better is wrong IMO. I mean, Sidious wasn't even aiming at him (though partly), he was above him, unless his lightning is moving like a round spinning motion, Sidious will get blasted as well, especially since he is electrocuting Vader, and Vader is holding him. Sidious would probably have done so much better against Vader if they were going toe to toe!


And really, Dooku holding back against Obi with lightning? I hardly think so. He displayed the same kind of lightning as he did against Yoda, and he hardly toys with Yoda, especially not at the second time does an attempt to electrocute him...
And also, Dooku with a grin was about to kill Obi-Wan right after their duel, I don't see no sings of caring or holding back!

What does Tyrannus have that Vader doesn't??? OMFG, Force Lightning. The Force Lightning got easily countered by Kenobi. And like kamikz said above, Tyrannus was trying to kill Kenobi with that Lightning because there wasn't no apparent change of Lightning strength between Kenobi and Yoda. Vader can easily block this Lightning. Now after Tyrannus uses Lightning and finds it not helpful, what does he do? That's right, lightsaber combat. And who wins here? Vader. Seriously, we debated this in the largest thread here and people still say "Tyrannus pwns with FORCE LIGHTNING, OMG yeah".

More or less, Prodigal.
Let's recap some advantages Vader has in lightsaber combat.
* Massive amounts of physical strength (especially when compared to Dooku), and a form that utilizes his strength. It also turns out that this form is great against Makashi.
* Semi lightsaber-resistant armor. It isn't a huge advantage, but against weak hits of Makashi, it's better to have than not.
* Speed. Although Vaders form is all about holding ground and staying relatively still,he has the capability to be fast, as seen in Crimson Empire and other sources.
* Knowledge of Dooku and his fighting style. Dooku knows nothing about Vader, but Vader will remember Dooku, I'm sure.
* Kenobi.

Nice job jollyjim

Originally posted by jollyjim311
* Massive amounts of physical strength (especially when compared to Dooku), and a form that utilizes his strength. It also turns out that this form is great against Makashi.

Fair enough. But strength alone doesnt win you the fight. Especially when Vader is pathetically slow. Dooku would be able to get several good hits in before Vader even lifts up his blade - if we are going by what we see in ESB (which I assume we are because it is ESB Vader.



True. I dont see any way around this.



No, Vader doesnt have speed. Again this is ESB Vader, he is shamefully slow - especially against someone like Tyranus, who was able to hold his own rather well against the likes of Yoda.



Doesnt Vader use a combined style of Makashi and Djem So? News Flash. Dooku is the undisputed master od Makashi, having trained with it for 80 years. He also has knowledge of Djem So, having been the temples Battle Master and all. He also describes Anakin as the best Djem So practicioner he had ever seen, heavily implying that he knows the form and how it works.



Kenobi would be more of a burden than an asset in this fight. The two hardly have the same team work they used to have, they fight differently and they will more than likely have the emotional factor in their mind while they fight (which in case you didnt realise would be a bad thing).

I agree with some of Ox's points, specifically that Kenobi is not exactly at his physical peak, and that he is 20 years out of practice, and even at his optimum weaker than the count, I am pretty sure he wouldn't be much of a distraction.


Common knowledge of the lightsaber:
The lightsaber's hilt consisted of an alloy cylinder traditionally 25 to 30 centimeters long;

The most logical assumption then is that Vader's lightsaber hilt is an electrical conductor, given that most lightsaber hilts are made from alloys such as electrum.

I disagree. Count Dooku will have to use the Force to disable Obi-Wan easily. As I recall, he was unable to overcome Obi-Wan's lightsaber defense in the movies. There's nothing to indicate that he'd do so, easily, now.



Mace was bombarded with lightning from Sidious. The difficulty he had was that the force of the lightning was pushing his lightsaber back against him. Notice that nothing happened to the hilt itself.

Obi-Wan had zero difficulty with Count Dooku's lightning, and it didn't affect the hilt.

Are their lightsaber hilts made of something else?

Your entitled to your opinion then.

I personally find that if someone has been is isolate from using his powers, denied a body of knowledge to study, denied from sparring, and to top it all, way past his physical prime, then he is going to be out of practice and out of the battle quickly. Especially with Obi Wan, when in the ROTS novel, all the Count had to do is "flick his wrist."





Dude, the clincher being them not composed of a material that goes absolutely haywhire in the presence of lightning.

You do realise Count Dooku only used one handed lightning in the movie right?

So Mace's lightsaber and AotC Obi-Wan's lightsaber were made of something different?

Or are you assuming that is the case because they didn't go haywire against the lightning?

Originally posted by The Planet
You do realise Count Dooku only used one handed lightning in the movie right?

No, vader used one handed too

Originally posted by zephiel7


The most logical assumption then is that Vader's lightsaber hilt is an electrical conductor, given that most lightsaber hilts are made from alloys such as electrum. so? the lightning hits the beam, NOT the hilt. and even if it were to conduct, it would be minimal, and Vaders gloves would insulate it

Originally posted by Gideon
So Mace's lightsaber and AotC Obi-Wan's lightsaber were made of something different?

No, not at all.

I am saying that Vader's suit is made up of material that is extremely susceptible to lightning, as Sidious himself says. That is the difference that seperates him from Mace and Obi Wan. If Dooku were to aim it at the hilt of the lightsaber, it could devestate Vader.

Originally posted by zephiel7
No, not at all.

I am saying that Vader's suit is made up of material that is extremely susceptible to lightning, as Sidious himself says. That is the difference that seperates him from Mace and Obi Wan. If Dooku were to aim it at the hilt of the lightsaber, it could devestate Vader.

And Vader's gonna hold the hilt up nice and easy for Dooku to aim at it? No.

Originally posted by The Planet
And Vader's gonna hold the hilt up nice and easy for Dooku to aim at it? No.

Agreed. Hence I don't know why Zephiel's trying to argue that ridiculous point. The blade of the lightsaber also seems to absorb the lightning before it can reach the hilt or the user.

Given that Dooku didn't do it to Obi-Wan, either he's not aware of that advantage, or it is extremely difficult to aim.

Originally posted by Gideon
Agreed. Hence I don't know why Zephiel's trying to argue that ridiculous point. The blade of the lightsaber also seems to absorb the lightning before it can reach the hilt or the user.

Given that Dooku didn't do it to Obi-Wan, either he's not aware of that advantage, or it is extremely difficult to aim.


Quotes from Palpatine seem to imply that he is significantly weak against lightning. For all we know, the lightning could be attracted to his armour and completely ignore the saber.

I don't see the point of saying this tidbit if Vader could simply deflect it with the lightsaber. It would seem redundant; because frankly, if most of the Jedi in ROTS were hit head on by Palpatine's lightning, they'd be ****ed.

Originally posted by zephiel7
Quotes from Palpatine seem to imply that he is significantly weak against lightning. For all we know, the lightning could be attracted to his armour and completely ignore the saber.

I don't see the point of saying this tidbit if Vader could simply deflect it with the lightsaber. It would seem redundant; because frankly, if most of the Jedi in ROTS were hit head on by Palpatine's lightning, they'd be ****ed.

All the Emperor said was that "he] could easily overwhelm the delicate electrical devices of suit." That is not to say that Count Dooku himself could.

All that you are making are unsupported assumptions. And since it hasn't happened to anyone else, I'm not exactly seeing it.

LOL, come on man.

You guys are making as many unsupported assumptions as me.

You guys believe that Vader is automatically able to deflect lightning with a lightsaber DESPITE Sidious' words. It seems rather absurd for him to state it, IF, it were not applicable with lightsaber included. Because otherwise, any damn idiot hit by lightning would be 'overwhelmed.'

Originally posted by zephiel7
LOL, come on man.

You guys are making as many unsupported assumptions as me.

You guys believe that Vader is automatically able to deflect lightning with a lightsaber DESPITE Sidious' words. It seems rather absurd for him to state it, IF, it were not applicable with lightsaber included. Because otherwise, any damn idiot hit by lightning would be 'overwhelmed.'

Wrong. Mace Windu had, as you say, "a superconducting loop" thanks to Vaapad, and yet - Sidious nearly killed him from being in an inferior position, and being blasted in the face.

A lightsaber can stop lightning. That should apply to Vader as well. The difference is, a sufficiently powerful Force user can blast through the defenses provided by a lightsaber.

Sidious did it to Yoda without difficulty, and he nearly did it to Mace, despite being on his ass and in an inferior position.

That doesn't mean Dooku can do it either.

Yoda was hit head on, didn't die...Mace was hit and died from the fall...Dooku got Anakin, didn't die...Sidious got Luke for a LONG time, didn't die...so no one has died directly from lightning. Vader, when hit by lightning, having his hand cut off, and taking his mask off, still didn't die right away, remember? A lightsaber is made from a pure beam of energy, which would act more as a conductor than metal. Energy is drawn to energy, being as they are both intangible, so no the lightning would not pass his saber and travel to his suit. And the reason Yoda lost his saber, isn't due to the level of power that Palps shot his lightning with, it's because Yoda jumped up, wasn't "set" yet and didn't have a grip on the saber necessary to hold on to it. As soon as he jumps, he gets attacked and pushes the saber away. I thought it was clear. Mace was using two hands and struggling to maintain control of it, which has nothing to do with the power of the force user, just the physical strength of the person holding the saber, which i would say Vader is stronger than Mace. It was settled in the Dooku vs. Vader thread that vader could block it with a saber, being as OB1 did with one hand against Dooku.

Originally posted by zephiel7
LOL, come on man.

You guys are making as many unsupported assumptions as me.

You guys believe that Vader is automatically able to deflect lightning with a lightsaber DESPITE Sidious' words. It seems rather absurd for him to state it, IF, it were not applicable with lightsaber included. Because otherwise, any damn idiot hit by lightning would be 'overwhelmed.' There is a difference between sidious lightning and dookus lightning. A very BIG difference.

Like subject said, vader didnt die strait away, and palpatine was shocking him with lightning after he carried palpatine. Dookus lightning on the other hand is not as poewrufl and could be blocked easily with BOTH force dissipate(which vader has and demonstrated in TESB) and a lightsaber as obi wan proved.

Jorus c boath lighting was just as powerful as sidious lighting(i assume) and mara jade, a weakling could block it with her saber, dont you think vadercan do the same?

Originally posted by Kadesh
Dookus lightning on the other hand is not as poewrufl and could be blocked easily with BOTH force dissipate(which vader has and demonstrated in TESB) and a lightsaber as obi wan proved.

I'm sorry, but what? Darth Vader is incapable of repelling Force lightning, without the possible chance of using a lightsaber to block it.

What he demonstrated in ESB is irrelevant to the fact that, without a saber, Vader will be curbstomped by lightning. The RotS Visual Dictionary states explicity that he is neither able to conjur nor repel lightning as it requires living hands to do so. Vader's artificial replacements will not be an adequate defense.

And, as far as I recall, it's still theorized that Vader's gloves had to do with blocking Han Solo's blaster bolt (as Rex brought up awhile ago). As we know, the properties of a blaster bolt and Force lightning are different on such a different degree, so it's not logical nor conclusive to say that because he can block X, he can block Y.



I would probably say it's smart to take into account Vader had just gone turncoat on Sidious, and he didn't have very much time to react or apply immediate/immense power into his attack. He was, after all, focused on Luke when Vader decided to benchpress the fool.

Although, that's not to say he'll die instantly anyways against Dooku's. Just stating a point to take into consideration.



Why do you assume this? Sidious' lightning:

http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/946/sidiouspwnsqq5.th.jpg

What of Joruus' lightning? You'll have to excuse me, as I've not seen his being displayed on such an impressive or devastating scale (nor have I read into the Thrawn Trilogy much, so provide a passage, scan, etc. to compete).

Advent, people assume that getting hit with lightning will immediately kill vader, which i apparantly i do not think its true, it didnt matter weather sidious used full power on vader or not, because he still got hit with lightning and did not die immediately, and still had the power to walkand throw the fool down the shaft

Vader was hit by lightning and was mortally wounded. All of the organic life forms (from the movies) got hit by lightning were up and rearing to go within seconds. this clearly shows that Vaders life support cant withstand lightning of any power.

I do doubt a lightning attack would immediately kill him, as in as soon as it connects to his suit "KA-POW....*drop dead in that same second*", however I'd also have to take a position of skepticism that if Vader got hit by an actual attack (in other words, no "Turncoat Suprise" business), he'd be able to do anything.

For example,

Count Dooku is ten feet away from Vader, and blasts him with lightning. He won't be dead at that very second, but he won't be able to really do much if there's a significant amount of power behind it. It took all of his remaining strength to even carry Sidious, and we can deduce that Sidious' lightning was far from his upper limit, or even Dooku's own, at that point (given in his weaker state in RotS, he was able to tool Mace Windu, who isn't as susceptible to lightning as Vader is), so in essence, it does matter because lightning will eliminate Vader by a vastly shorter amount of time - depending upon the strength levels put behind the attack.

And actually considering how Count Dooku's lightning mid duel was able to render Sora Bulq unconscious, I'd say a blast to Vader would, in fact, kill him. Maybe not immediately (again, I reinforce that second), but he'd still be dead in a relatively short amount of time; he would not last nearly as long as he did in RotJ, not even close.

Hmm ok then, but i thought that force dissipate creates a layer of the force on your hand to block out bolts, how come it wont work on lighting?(vaders case), its not like the lightning is going through the layer of the force on vaders palm

But the Sora and Dooku fight was fake wasn't it?

Ok i hear some utter bullshit in here mixed with some logic. First off, Ox, how many people did we see hit with lightning, 3? Not including mace cause we didn't see him after it wore off. But ok, Anakin..was hit and thrown and did not get up within seconds. I even believe you were boasting the power of Dooku's lightning before saying, "it floored Anakin for couple minutes.", but now it's seconds in an attempt to downplay Vader's capabilities. Yoda...not hit with a constant stream, but rather a strong burst that leveled his ass as well, for more than a few seconds...he was laying there with his eyes closed for more than a few seconds, before he mustered the energy to even stand up. And then we have Luke, this is where more than one point will arise from. He was shocking the shit out of Luke and he was laying there smoking, and was hardly up and rearing to go within a few seconds. So that's that.

And now on to something Advent said I cant agree with. Sidious said, now Young skywalker, you will die, which would imply that he was upping the power of which he was attacking him with, and then was frying his ass. In the middle of this attack is when Vader picked him up and tossed him over the edge, right? What evidence is there to even entertain the thought that once vader picked him up, his lightning power was decreased? I mean, he was giving it to Luke, badly, and then got lifted right above Vader's head, and nowhere did it say or imply that he lowered the ferocity of the attack. And it was at point blank range, and could have traveled immediately down the severed hand circuits being as it was touching the man who was radiating the force lightning. So it's logical to deduce that a mid duel FL attack would kill vader any faster then Sidious'...not at all. If anything, we would have to assume that Palp's lightning was at the least, the same level he was hitting Luke with, being as you said, it was a turncoat surprise, and wouldn't necessarily give Palps the time and opportunity to adjust the lightning.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Ok i hear some utter bullshit in here mixed with some logic. First off, Ox, how many people did we see hit with lightning, 3? Not including mace cause we didn't see him after it wore off. But ok, Anakin..was hit and thrown and did not get up within seconds. I even believe you were boasting the power of Dooku's lightning before saying, "it floored Anakin for couple minutes.", but now it's seconds in an attempt to downplay Vader's capabilities. Yoda...not hit with a constant stream, but rather a strong burst that leveled his ass as well, for more than a few seconds...he was laying there with his eyes closed for more than a few seconds, before he mustered the energy to even stand up. And then we have Luke, this is where more than one point will arise from. He was shocking the shit out of Luke and he was laying there smoking, and was hardly up and rearing to go within a few seconds. So that's that.

When Anakin was hit by Dooku's lightning he was fighting again in less than a minute. Now I assume that because it is less than a minute we count in seconds. Hence the reason I said that he got up seconds after being hit. Unless you would prefer me to say that they got up .58 minutes after being hit.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
And now on to something Advent said I cant agree with.

Can't agree? I suppose I can entertain your thoughts then, but I'd advise you not to make blind assumption just because something isn't stated in clear black and white. Although, it may be a little late for that warning label.



Sidious says a lot of things. From what we've seen displayed of the sheer power and intensity his lightning can generate up to his incarnation RotJ, it can clearly kill the victim in a relatively short amount of time, or at the least, knock said victim unconscious upon contact. Luke had neither of those ill effects induced upon him, in fact, he was still writhing in pain, and could still muster the strength to call to his father for help, continuously I might add.

Furthermore, as soon as the lightning is lifted off of Luke and thusly goes into the air wildly, Luke gets right back up.



What evidence? We know that Force attacks are measured by concentration (at least continuous attacks). Darth Vader broke that concentration by benchpressing Sidious into the air, which caused confusion. While it's obvious that the lightning generated at that point was intensified, it doesn't mean it had increased tenfold, much less that Vader got hit with the same amount of power.

The Force doesn't work like a handgun. Concentration has a lot to do with it, and the power behind it. Unlike a handgun, which whatever you're doing will still fire nearly the same at that type of range.

Even to further the point, in ANH when Ben Kenobi is instructing Luke, we notice that without proper concentration, he gets zapped in the ass by the remote droid. When he does concentrate in the sense that all Jedi do, he blocked them seemingly without effort.



Again, I'm deducing that. As well, you keep suggesting that his lightning was at it's fullest, while it clearly wasn't anywhere remotely close at the time.

Badly? Somewhat. He was torturing him, and as I already noted, he gets up right after the lightning attack is done being assaulted upon him.



Just like your last statement, right? Perhaps you meant "So, is it logical..."? Either way, I'll address the point, just stating the last sentence isn't grammatically correct.

1. How is it "illogical" to take into consideration that a blast similar to the one that knocked Sora Bulq unconscious, won't kill him any faster than Sidious' wild assault, which wasn't even focused on Darth Vader, but instead drawn to? Especially a more concentrated, and seemingly more powerful version given that Vader is far more susceptible to lightning than Sora Bulq?

Just to reinforce, he may have been radiating in lightning, but the power more than likely could not have been the same, and the attack was not generated specifically toward Vader.

2. "In his wild flailing, the lightning ripped across the room, tearing into Vader."

Excerpt from the RotJ novel. If you notice, usually one is not "flailing wildly" when they are concentrated or focused. If you also will note, it says that the lightning "ripped across the room", and implies it was drawn to Darth Vader, so again it's even more illogical to assume that the energies emitted from the waves of lightning would be as powerful if a) concentration was broken and b) if it wasn't even focused on him.

3. Given that the lightning didn't kill him in the Emporer's Throne room (as he was carried by Luke, still alive), it's also highly implausible that Sidious' lightning - which we've seen demolish an entire battalion of Stormtroopers, utterly destroy Mace Windu, and floor Yoda (which not apply immense strength, or continuous) - was anywhere near its apex. From what we've displayed of it, it seemed to be less damaging to a man who is a crippled cyborg, who's suit is a conduit for electricity. Which leads one to believe it was hardly as strong as it could be, and that it was significantly less powerful when applied to Luke, and even less to Vader (as he broke concentration).



Actually, "we" don't have to assume jack shit, son.

As a matter of fact, considering Luke was hit with a lot of lightning, and still managed to get up immediately after - it's not far fetched to say that Vader, who got hit with a lot less, wouldn't die quickly, in addition to the matter that Sidious' lightning wasn't at his upper limit (or apparently near).



Hm, I'm sorry, but the wonderful "Turncoat Special" Vader served Sidious for dinner would break concentration. Which is key to my argument. In fact, you stating that he neither had opportunity nor time to adjust the intensity would seem to take a part from my argument. As, since he apparently couldn't do such, the strength levels behind the lightning would turn into whatever his "broken concentration" were. Which would be quite an amount lesser than what we see on Luke, which wasn't even his near the culmination of its power.

Vader can block lightning with his saber, Advent.

Don't be difficult just for the sake of being difficult.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Vader can block lightning with his saber, Advent.

Don't be difficult just for the sake of being difficult.

Like I said before. If Dooku can hit Vader, Vader's dead. But I don't see that being easy for him, and Vader's skill rivals and likely surpasses Count Dooku in sheer combat.

I concur what Escape said. Lightning to Vader is fatal. It's getting there which is hard for Dooku.

Originally posted by jollyjim311
Vader can block lightning with his saber, Advent. Don't be difficult just for the sake of being difficult.

Hey, how about instead of making a comment on an argument you plainly didn't read through, you actually read through?

Here's what I wrote, just in case your spectacles weren't equipped:

Originally posted by Advent
I'm sorry, but what? Darth Vader is incapable of repelling Force lightning, without the possible chance of using a lightsaber to block it.

What he demonstrated in ESB is irrelevant to the fact that, without a saber, Vader will be curbstomped by lightning. The RotS Visual Dictionary states explicity that he is neither able to conjur nor repel lightning as it requires living hands to do so. Vader's artificial replacements will not be an adequate defense.

And, as far as I recall, it's still theorized that Vader's gloves had to do with blocking Han Solo's blaster bolt (as Rex brought up awhile ago). As we know, the properties of a blaster bolt and Force lightning are different on such a different degree, so it's not logical nor conclusive to say that because he can block X, he can block Y.

And of course, that was in response to Kadesh's ridiculous assertion that Vader can block Force lightning with his bare hands (artificial rather), simply because he was shown to block a blaster bolt in ESB. My argument had nothing to do regarding if Vader were to be in possession a lightsaber, it's generally without a lightsaber that I stated my response to; as indicated by me saying "without a lightsaber" dually.

Unfortunately for Dooku, it's going to be hard for him to disarm Vader.

Originally posted by Advent

And of course, that was in response to Kadesh's ridiculous assertion that Vader can block Force lightning with his bare hands (artificial rather), simply because he was shown to block a blaster bolt in ESB. My argument had nothing to do regarding if Vader were to be in possession a lightsaber, it's generally without a lightsaber that I stated my response to; as indicated by me saying "without a lightsaber" dually. Then explain something to me . If vader used force dissipate to block that bolt? isnt the bolt coming INTO contanct with a layer of the force that vader has created on the palm of his hands? How is the lightning going to even get past that layer of the force vader created on his hands? Didnt the guides say that if dies only IF the lightning hits him and not the layer he makes on his hands?

Originally posted by Kadesh
Then explain something to me .

Last time.



If Vader even used the Force to essentially deflect the bolt, then possibly. As I stated, I've not seen definitive proof he used Force deflection to do such; and as noted previously, it could've been due to his armored hand.

Most likely people surmise that from this line in The Empire Strikes Back novel: "Before those bolts zipped halfway across the table, the Dark Lord had lifted a gauntlet-protected hand", among other various reasons I'm sure. Of course, I'm not saying it wasn't Force deflection, just stating for the record.

Another thing that really humors this argument is that the source you are oh so fond of, wikipedia, says Vader cannot deflect (or generate) Force lightning. I can't wait to see if you concede or contest, as if you contest then majority of your wiki arguments fail (and to make a preemptive strike: I didn't add that line in the article. If you check back all times of day, all times of night, every month, every hour - it'll still be there; just noting as I suspect some ridiculous assertion being tossed around to discredit my argument). But then again, in this instance, Wikipedia is correct, I'm astound to say. The RotS Visual Dictionary says the same.



Different attacks, different properties. It's said that it requires living hands to do such, not the artificial ones Vader carries. So, obviously, the qualifications for deflecting certain attacks vary. Why, I don't know. It just is.



No. Once again, the RotS Visual Dictionary explicitly states that he can neither conjure nor repel Force lightning. Repel, as in block, which then leads me to saying that Vader is incapable of doing such without the possibility of using a lightsaber.

Originally posted by Advent
The Empire Strikes Back novel: "Before those bolts zipped halfway across the table, the Dark Lord had lifted a gauntlet-protected hand", among other various reasons I'm sure. Of course, I'm not saying it wasn't Force deflection, just stating for the record.

This paticular quote here has yet to be proven or be stated in any way that it is actually true, i doubt the gloves could have actually absorbed a bolt and especially when he gets shot several times.
In the movie, we see him dissipate the bolt, and in the novel, it claims that his glovesblocked it which is coming FROM the authors opinion and i doubt it has been made canon.

And if it is true that he really used force defelection, then the ultimate guide contradicts what has been shown in the movie.

Originally posted by Advent

If Vader even used the Force to essentially deflect the bolt, then possibly. As I stated, I've not seen definitive proof he used Force deflection to do such; and as noted previously, it could've been due to his armored hand.

And there is lack of proof the show that he blocked it with his glove

Originally posted by Advent

Another thing that really humors this argument is that the source you are oh so fond of, wikipedia, says Vader cannot deflect (or generate) Force lightning. I can't wait to see if you concede or contest, as if you contest then majority of your wiki arguments fail (and to make a preemptive strike: I didn't add that line in the article. If you check back all times of day, all times of night, every month, every hour - it'll still be there; just noting as I suspect some ridiculous assertion being tossed around to discredit my argument). But then again, in this instance, Wikipedia is correct, I'm astound to say. The RotS Visual Dictionary says the same.
Because that wiki simply copied it from the visual guide and the ultimate guide? Like i said before, several times at least that wiki rips quotes from books which are canon, even they mentioned that vader blocking bolts with his glove is speculation

Originally posted by Advent

Different attacks, different properties. It's said that it requires living hands to do such, not the artificial ones Vader carries. So, obviously, the qualifications for deflecting certain attacks vary. Why, I don't know. It just is.
Yes, it said required hands for both, But does it make a difference if he had really known force dissipate? which maked a layer around his palm?

I really dont know if he had used dissipate but i will search as much as i can

i rest my case for now

Originally posted by Kadesh
This paticular quote here has yet to be proved or be stated in any way that it is actually true,

What exactly is your point? Can you read, or do you just like to attempt to rebut things that I've stated plain as day:

Originally posted by Advent
Of course, I'm not saying it wasn't Force deflection, just stating for the record.

Nothing much will be earned through your reply, I see. I might as well also note that "your particular statement" of Vader using Force deflection has yet to be proved definitive, or be stated in the rest of the gibber jabber you say.

So, your point would be...?



He gets shot with a DL-44, to be exact. He survived a shot right to the head by Boba Fett, who's weapon has more power behind it than Han Solo's weapon. It is armor, after all.

Likewise, Darth Vader's gloves is referenced as being nearly indestructible in the first Jedi Prince novel (entitled The Glove of Darth Vader). So, again, not far fetched to say that it wouldn't be given any damage, and could take shots from at least Han Solo's weaponry.



1. Novels aren't "opinions". They are canon. Leland Chee states as much. If you can show me where it says "the author thinks" or "the author surmises" in the entire novel, then your asinine point is made.

I'll note that you will be hard pressed to find such, as movie novelizations are taled by an omniscient narrator.

2. What? First of all, the ESB novel doesn't even say for certain that he blocked it via just his armored hand, it's implied, but not known, as I already stated. I was just making mention, just like I'm doing now as you obviously overlooked that part.

3. You seem to imply that in the movie, we see the bolt disperse before it even comes close to Vader's hand, or whatever. If you really are implying that, then you need to watch the movie again and equip your spectacles.

Reviewing that scene carefully (pausing at each hit), it's shows the blasts "exploding" at a rather close range to where Darth Vader's hand is thrown up at (and by "rather close", I mean appearing at his palm). It really doesn't show the bolt evanish before it reaches his hand. So, your inference made on the scene isn't accurate to state as fact.

Han Solo shoots manages to fire off four shots before his gun is stripped away by Vader.

The first: explodes against at seemingly close range, explosion is far too wild to note if it reaches completely to his hand. Bad camera angle, too.
The second: You can literally see the bolt and its trail coming directly to his palm due to the camera angle (camera is behind Vader, pointing towards Han Solo). Going frame by frame, of course.
The third: Front view. Hard to tell due to explosion and angle Obviously comes close.
The fourth: Front view. Hard to tell due to explosion and angle. Obviously comes close.

Now, researching that scene, from what I clearly see (or rather don't see), doesn't indicate he used Force deflection a la Yoda or Kenobi in the microseries, or that the bolt stops before it reaches his hand, or whatever the hell you mean. So, that would mean that the whole "using the glove" to block the attack is still a possibility, as is Force deflecting them as well. It's not conclusive, however.

4. Furthermore, these rebuttals are quite ridiculous, tiresome, and as Janus or Illustrious might say, are being repeated ad naseum. "I doubt it has been made canon", well you have your doubts; they are wrong. Just because Vader can't repel Force lightning doesn't mean you need to pick at what little things you can.

The RotS Visual Dictionary states it, and gives the reason. Even the beloved source that you use, and say is "accurate" and "reliable" says the same thing (which again, if you ignore or contest puts quite the hinder on all the wiki arguments you've made; not that wiki even is a reliable source, but still). So, I'd advise you to quit this nonsense.



What "ultimate guide"? What the hell are you talking about? The RotS Visual Dictionary, you mean?

If so, then yet again - not surprisingly - you're wrong. How is it conflicting with what has been shown in the movies? Where has anyone with artificial hands blocked Force lightning via such? That's right: nowhere.

I've explained different things have different properties. Blaster bolts aren't Force attacks, specifically Force lightning. In addition to that, Force lightning has different attributes than other attacks, too. In addition to that addition, it's still theorized that Vader used his hand. Of course, neither explanation is definite, though.

Edit:

By the way, if you were referring to the ESB novel as the "ultimate guide" (for whatever, dumbass reason I can't think of), then it still doesn't contradict, as it's only an implication. Of course, that's still irrelevant to the main point. The main point which is Vader is incapable of blocking lightning - deflection or not - because it requires living hands.

Double case dealt with.



I probably should state before anything that absence of proof is not proof of absence. Now, there's obviously given reasons to assume that he used his gauntlet to do such. Listed above, of course, are a couple of them.



What the hell is your point, Yobbo?

I'm getting rather tired of this repeated bullshit fed to me. The RotS Visual Guide, which is canon, states it. That should have been the end of the discussion the first time I posted what it said.



What the hell is your point, Yobbo?

I never said the glove theorem wasn't speculation, as a matter of fact, I said the opposite, but of course as it would apply to the whole "glove" theory, it would apply to Force deflection as well.

Which was my entire point. By the way, if you meant to say "which aren't canon", then it's time to prove up, Yobbo.



What? The word "repel" is a simple one. In fact, this whole ordeal is a simple one at that. Let me show you:

Fact: Force lightning requires living hands to repel.
Fact: Vader has no living hands.
Conclusion: Vader cannot successfully disperse, or deflect Force lightning.

You've managed to make me write an entire two post essay on something that is even facile enough for a third grade moron, with the lowest grades in the class I might add, to understand. I wouldn't "argue for the sake of arguing" (as jollyjim had uninformatively said); especially against me.



Right, and what "case" are we talking about again? I've only seen you grasping for proverbially air to respond. Your case has been buried around the first time I decided to post; this isn't so much a "case" now, as it is an annoyance.

And I really don't mean to be rude (or arrogant, even) in my responses, but this really is just an argument going in a circle due to your unwillingness to accept things outright stated.

Originally posted by Advent
and as Janus or Illustrious might say, are being repeated ad naseum.

Well, I doubt they'd actually say "ad nasuem", but instead "ad nauseam". Just a little correction for spelling on my part.

Can't blame me, though, I'm tired as all hell, and actually am to the point of nausea.

Why dont you just prove that he actually had used his gloves?

Thats all i would need to hear and i do not need to read an "essay"

EDIT while i dont deny him getting killed with lightning or the possibility that he used his glove to block the shot.

heres a quote i found on wookie.

Darth Vader used it to deflect Han Solo's blaster in Cloud City. However, this may have been due to his armored mechanical hand.

Its the word "may" that doesnt convince me, and i took this out from force deflection page

Originally posted by Kadesh
Why dont you just prove that he actually had used his gloves?

Please do not notify me on what I should do. I'm far more than an exceptional debater (not to boast, but in terms of KMC standards, I am), and you of all people know this. Why don't I prove it? Well, how can I prove something which a) isn't outright stated, and b) because of such, has another theorem; not inclusive of using his glove? Which, in essence, makes deducing such even harder.

Oh, yeah. Probably because it's nigh impossible to do such. A point you continue to miss, among basically every other.



Dude (using that term as in "seriously", quite frankly, the line from the Visual Dictionary is "all you need to hear". My argument is backed up by sources, yours? None. In. Sight. That's referring to singularly the lightning arguments. As for the other (gauntlet/deflection), I've already stated about ten, maybe eleven times what my stance is, and what the situation really is. Which is unknown.

You obviously need to read what I wrote, because you continue to - again - grasp at proverbially air to reply to my rebuttals.



1. Just to encore what I said earlier, not to be rude, but I don't give a shit what you are convinced, or not convinced about. The whole "Force deflection vs. Glove" argument is irrelevant, because you need living hands to block Force lightning.

Moreover, I'm not even arguing that he used his glove to block it as a decisive reason. All that I was saying in that sub-point is that there is no viable evidence to suggest he definitely used Force deflection. Do you understand this yet? Or must I speak even more condescendingly?

2. To actually properly address the point, the line "may" only strengthens my argument. "May", meaning "possibly", goes back to my argument about how there is no absolute answer at this point.

Then again, it's from a fallible, third party source. Which is somewhat irrelevant to what I'm saying; nonetheless, there's still no absolute elucidation on the matter, which again was my entire point.

So, in closing, I'd just like to remind you that the only position I take on the matter of "Deflection v. Glove" is: neither (and I've implied that throughout every single post). At this point, at least. I doubt it'll be further expanded upon anyways, but just to clarify as you continuously seem to imply that my arguments are alluding to the "gauntlet theory" being the correct answer.

And again, the argument goes ad infinitum. Do you see what I'm saying yet?

That is why i argue about the gauntlet vs the deflection

if there is no evidence to say that he blocked it with either his hands or dissipation, then tell me, what did he use?

i am only saying the possibility of him using dissipation, while you are saying the possiblity of him using his gauntlet to block the bolts.


But i still want to see proof that he used his gauntlet to block the bolt.

Originally posted by Kadesh
That is why i argue about the gauntlet vs the deflection

if there is no evidence to say that he blocked it with either his hands or dissipation, then tell me, what did he use?

Buddha Dharma on toast. The point yet again flies over your head like an airplane.

The point, of course, which was: there is no evidence that gives a definitive answer to which one he used. It's obvious, and frequently insinuated by myself, that he used one of the two. But again for reinforcement purposes (I'll probably have to state this every other sentence), which one he used is unknown.

There's enough evidence to support both claims equally, ergo no answer is correct, and as of now, you will not find any absolute or correct answer. Unless you apply extreme sleuthing methods, to which I still doubt any answer will be given (as I've checked multiple times; albeit, I could overlook a thing or two).

Why. Do. You. Continue. An. Unknown. Argument. ?.

There's really no reason. It'd be like arguing what Revan does post-KotOR, and expect to get a conclusive result on his actions. In cases like that, nothing will be indisputable. Same applies here. Simple enough to understand, Kadesh?



Holy shit. I honestly have to be frank here, your levels of understanding things, even typed repeatedly, are very low.

They are both possibilities. I've stated this in almost every single post. I've already given reasons as to why some believe it's a possibility that he used his armored gauntlets, and yet I still say:

"I'd just like to remind you that the only position I take on the matter of "Deflection v. Glove" is: neither"

"I never said the glove theorem wasn't speculation, as a matter of fact, I said the opposite, but of course as it would apply to the whole "glove" theory, it would apply to Force deflection as well."

"Of course, I'm not saying it wasn't Force deflection, just stating for the record."

My position is simple:

- Proving that it's not absolute to say that he used Force deflection in ESB. Case: Proved.
- That it's also not absolute to say he used his gauntlets, but is an alternative view, which even furthers the above point.

Your side has been arguing views of pro-deflection. Well, that's all good and well, until you step outside of your small thought box and realize that it's not necessarily so, and there's reason to assume such conclusively.

All I'm doing is informing you of that, I repeat again: I am not arguing that it was his gauntlet. I've already stated numerous reasons for why it could've been his gauntlet, and why it doesn't have to do with deflection. In case you are really that dense, and don't understand when I say "absolute", I mean there's still a possibility for that option, but it's not definite. This may be the problem in you misunderstanding (although, I've made it perfectly, crystal clear several times).

For reference, the reasons:

1. "Before those bolts zipped halfway across the table, the Dark Lord had lifted a gauntlet-protected hand."

The novelization alludes through this line that it was his gauntlet (keyword: alludes, meaning "hints", but of course - isn't certain). 2. Another reason that would lead one to believe he used his armored gloves is because they are referenced as being nearly indestructible (see: Jedi Prince: The Glove of Darth Vader).



Now, the way you worded that makes the implication that I'm on the side that represents he definitely, without contest, used his gloves.

If you didn't already get the Buddha forsaken message that I've said nearly twenty times now: I'm not.

See above for reasons as to why some believe that it could've been his gauntlet. Likewise, the reason that he could've used Force deflection is quite obvious. However, they are equal in terms of having enough support behind them, and because of such, and because it's never outright stated - we. don't. know, and can't. deduce. Although, the reasons for him using his glove seem to have a tad bit more support in my eyes, but also in my views, still not enough to give the absolute answer. Which is what I've been arguing this entire time.

This is really ridiculous, Kadesh. The outcome of which one he used, at this point, is: unknown. Neither theorization is more correct than the other, or at least to the degree that we can completely deduce which it was. Accept it, quit being difficult/annoying/dumb. My points have been made several times.

And there's still nothing to argue about.

It may help, probably not, but Vader can also throw back blaster bolts. I would imagine the force is needed for that...