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ok, i was just thinking, and i think we should have a thread for w/e symbols.

we have plenty for j/l, and i was just wondering if we could find as many for that ship as we could for ours. this isn't a debate thread, or a will turner luv fest, this is a w/e symbols thread. we've looked about as far as we could into the j/l relationship, and i want to see how far we can go into the w/e one.

yes, i am a j/l shipper, and this thread could actually help that ship, depending on how many things we could find saying that say w/e should be together

also...please, no bashing of this ship or will, just symbols

I really cant trace positive symbols for w/e

I see negative ones

Like the wedding dress when it was at the bottom of the sea.

The marriege intervened

well, i s'pose negative outlooks work too, as long as there's no fighting or bashing but some positive symbols would help me figure out what the w/e shippers are basing things on

i wish i could help,
but i really dont see any positives

*sighs* there's gotta be something.......

seriously seriously

Its not that Im lazy..its just I really dont

Well um

Will and Liz helpped eachother

Liz rescued him when he was a kid.

we need a w/e shipper on here who could give us some facts....w/e happened to ummm...surreal_44 was it? she had some good theories

The jail cell bars between them, hey something curious. Everyone knows that in COTBP Jack is shown behind bars as well as Liz in DMC. They always show Will standing outside. IMO the bars represent Will, because, doesn't he makes them? that was why he helped Jack scape from his cell in COTBP. IMO what is keeping J/L apart from each other is Will. Oh the "We are not free yet Luv" line from DMC. I thought that line said a lot, IMO meaning they were not free to go on with their desires because something or some one that was keeping them apart. Right after that comes the kiss. Funny how It relates in some way to the jail cell scenes. Will=Bars between Jack and Liz.

thats really good symbolism misty...thanx

thankies, this was discussed some time ago, about Jack/Liz both being behind bars. But it makes sense with this thread because Will represents the bars thats keeping them apart IMO.

I'm DMC, in what part was Will playing with a knife. Did anyone catch this. I just don't remember what part was it.

at the end when they're at tias hut he's throwing the knife at her table i think.

Originally posted by -savvychick-
at the end when they're at tias hut he's throwing the knife at her table i think.

Ok there's another symbolism. IMO they are implying that he will keep his promise and stab the heart of DJ. Ok he was doing it while he was in Tia's hut, I wonder what that means...... They are planning to make this trip At World's End to rescue Jack, Does he says something while he was throwing the knife, did the camera focused on something or some one? Man I wish I already had DMC.

i think the shot either went from him throwing the knife to liz crying, or from liz crying to him throwing the knife..not sure which

oo still cant sleep.

Originally posted by -savvychick-
i think the shot either went from him throwing the knife to liz crying, or from liz crying to him throwing the knife..not sure which

Humm Liz crying for Jack, Will throwing knife. I think Liz in a way will have something to do with Will stabbing the heart, he will have other reasons other than save his father.



Originally posted by Chiki Mina
oo still cant sleep.

Mina go lay down, try to rest girl.

i sry mina

but I cant misty!!!

its 2 am and my eyes are bigger than the krakens mouth.

Originally posted by Chiki Mina
but I cant misty!!!

its 2 am and my eyes are bigger than the krakens mouth.

Stress? don't think about anything when you lay down to sleep. Get everything out from your head. Make J/L scenes in your head for AWE. Think about Johnny naked...Think happy thoughts. Don't let anything bother you. I used to be like, I used to worry about everything. Now I really don't care. Well I do care, but you know what I mean.

lol...johnny naked...that made me lmao for some reason......

Originally posted by -savvychick-
lol...johnny naked...that made me lmao for some reason......

Why????

^^ Ya Why? Johnny naked is HOTT!!!!!!

I would be the happiest woman in this whole world, if I ever get the chance to see him naked.

^^ O O me tooo!!!

Originally posted by -savvychick-
ok, i was just thinking, and i think we should have a thread for w/e symbols.

we have plenty for j/l, and i was just wondering if we could find as many for that ship as we could for ours. this isn't a debate thread, or a will turner luv fest, this is a w/e symbols thread. we've looked about as far as we could into the j/l relationship, and i want to see how far we can go into the w/e one.

yes, i am a j/l shipper, and this thread could actually help that ship, depending on how many things we could find saying that say w/e should be together

also...please, no bashing of this ship or will, just symbols im liking the idea and not cause i am a w/e shipper ok ya it is but still i wish i woulve thought of it first

.

Johnny being naked funny?

That doesnt make me wana laugh, that makes me wanna *add dirty thought here*

ooh the thoughts just makes me tingle i think with thoughts like these im on the naughty list!

orbit alert!!!!but i agree

*eats orbit* my teeth are all white and clean now!!!

i don't think i can find anything that supports the w/e ship just too much evidence for j/l to happen.

I wish Jack could rip his pants

and sing riped pants from spongebob lol

When big davy came to take him down
Jack turned into a clown
And liz will never want to be
With a fool who went and *RIP* ripped his pants

lol

well, the thought of johnny naked didnt make me laugh in a bad way...hell no!

more of a giggle and some dirty thoughts...lol

Johnny Naked!!!! ya definately Dirrty Thoughts!!!!

why wouldn't liz want to be with a fool who ripped his pants lol

hehe...who wouldnt want to be w/ a ripped pants johnny front or back...lol

lol...front is better

yeah....thats what i was thinkinglol

lol

front AND back is more like it lol

I think that there's evidence for a W/E ship, but it's not symbolic exactly. It's sort of an in-your-face type of thing, but it goes against most of the logic on this forum that insists that the only way for a ship to work is to find symbolism in the tiniest detail, as opposed to seeing what is obviously there.


It's difficult and almost impossible to try to prove the W/E ship HERE because you will shoot down anything that is said as not being symbolic enough, or you'll dredge up whatever symbolism you have on J/E instead of listening to a reasoned argument.


This is not to be mean or to flame anyone, but it's the truth of how things are here on this forum. Sorry if your feelings are hurt by it. If you want to seriously discuss W/E and how they could --and most likely will -- be the ship that sails at the end of the movie, I'd be happy to talk about it.


If, however, you are going to be rude, interrupt the discussion with useless facts (( i.e. Jack is HOTTTT and should end up with Lizzie)), then I won't bother. Up to you all.


If someone wants to discuss it, but not here on the forum, you can of course, contact me through PM or IM me at yahoo. My name is Surreal_44 on there.

Surreal, i guess i have a few responses to that. i like to discuss symbolism because i spent too long in AP English writing essays about that sort of thing and now thats the way my brain works. i have been trained to ignore whats going on at the surface and delve into the subtext. and i dont think there's anything wrong with that. there are tons of references, metaphors, allusions, etc, that t and t have stuck in there on purpose for educated people to mull over.

And mostly, like you said, the obvious stuff is obvious, and therefore, mostly goes without having to bring up/discuss all the time, because there aren't too many opinions you can have about facts. the fact is, we already saw the Will/Elizabeth ending in movie 1. it was great, it was sweet, but we already had it. why would i wait through 2 more movies of endless depth and emotional journey to get the same ending?

i just cant imagine sitting around discussing how the ending we already got is probably where this is all leading, and all the metaphors/allusions/etc are just in there as macguffins. sorry.

if you have w/e eveidence tell us i would like to see some

Kate, I sat through plenty of AP English classes myself. My Antonia was one of my favorite books, stuffed full of all kinds of symbolism that I had to write a ten page essay about.


So is the Secret Garden, The Lovely Bones, etc.


I KNOW about symbolism. I also know when symbolism may have a double meaning, or that writers will toss in symbolism sometimes to make you look and think one way, but it actually means something else.


And sometimes, what is taken as symbolism is actually nothing at all. As one of the writers for this movie said, "Sometimes a canon is just a canon". Not everything that you view as symbolic is in fact, symbolic.


Now why would the writers make you go through an emotional journey, only to have the two people who started out together end up together at the very end? Because the characters have grown, have learned some things about themselves, and have learned that in the end, love conquers all.


The emotional journey and painful choices that will be made sharpens and strengthens their love, and seeing their emotions and actions play out will bring us, the audience with them. Two people love each other, then shatter their trust and each other by their actions, and then somehow, despite the distance between them, manage to come back together and despite their faults, still love each other...what can be more poignant and wonderful than that?


To me, being shallow and 'hot' is not nearly as wonderful and interesting as a deeper, more meaningful romance (not just love, not just lust, not just sex, but ROMANCE) between two characters.

yes sometimes a canon is just a canon, but sinking wedding dresses, keys that get more screentime than actors, hearts buried in chests, symbolic pirate songs, magic compasses, costumes that dictate character actions, etc, all have meaning or they wouldn't bother with them. we don't know what that meaning is- whether its pointing to either ship-- that's why we discuss them. We explore them and get opinions. Certainly not everything will carry blatant symbolism, but some things will. So its definately worth it to explore that.

"Will and Elizabeth are engaged". fact. not much you can do to discuss or explore that. yeah its important, but i for one don't have much to say about it. they're engaged. end of discussion.

and i do think most sparrabethers believe there could a very deep, meaningful romance and partnership between Captain Jack and Elizabeth. the "hot" factor is not the basis of the argument, its just the cherry on the sundae. It chiefly because of the depth seen between the two characters that interest was sparked at all. i definately wouldn't say it all happened because they are "hot".

and pardon me, but i don't exactly see this as a "love conquers all" story or any kind of fairytale at all. it has different rules, different themes, etc. it's a pirate film, and follows that trend accordingly. not to say true love won't be important to the story, but i just doubt they would twist everything to make a "love conquers all" statement, after so clearly destroying characters' lives, morality, ideals, etc, for the sake of "what a man can do, and what a man can't do", and the ability of someone to risk people's lives, seduce others' women, sell their soul, etc, and still be considered a good man, a man worth saving/making the hero.

and Secret Garden is one of my fav. books ever, love it!!!! so enchanting.

The Secret Garden is the best book ever! I read it at least once a month. *ggg* Same with Little Women . What happened to writers like that? The language they use is simply superb.


At any rate, what is the deep connection and love that J/E shippers think will happen with J/E? I truly don't see it as anything beyond well...heat. Yeah, they have something in common personality-wise, but I think that they'd be driving each other mad by the end of a week. That could, of course, change in the next film...


But I don't think it will.


As for the idea of they won't make it such a typical ending...no, there won't be a typical ending. A typical ending is what you had in CotBP. What you will have here is two individuals who are not perfect after all, learning to love and accept their other half for also not being perfect.


Also, I didn't say that there was a 'true love' element at the ending. Just that love conquers all...and I do mean it will conquer all. All the characters will be spiraling down into utter darkness and perhaps despair. They could lose their souls, their lives, and possibly the love of others.


What will make the ending interesting won't be solely whether or not Will and Elizabeth make amends and get married. It will be whether love and caring and the light that each person carries will be enough to conquer that darkness that is in them. This is sort of getting away from W/E now, but the point is, it isn't just a fairy tale ending...it will probably be an ending filled with justice, as well as injustice, with love and with heartache, but in the end, it will be all about love overcoming all obsticals.


That doesn't mean that there's a happily ever after involved.


BTW, have you read "The Lovely Bones"? If not, you absolutely must. It is one of the most fantastic books I have ever read!

i think the deep connection has a lot to do with emotional vulnerability they often experience around each other (signified by Elizabeth often being in unproper attire, and Jack being without his hat or effects) such as the island, the pearl, the kiss, etc. According to Jung, water/oceans sumbolize unconscious desires. So what I feel is that their first meeting is pretty symbolic--- Elizabeth has fallen into the water after the restrictions of society nearly killed her by not allowing her to breath. Jack is going along being Jack, but when she falls, he hands all his most valuble possessions to some navy idiots and dives right in. once there, he removes the weight of society by ripping off her dress, brings her to land, removes the corset, sees the pirate medallion, and then gets arrested for it. Unconsious desires? Prhaps Jack is ready to trade in his "freedom" for something else, like a lasting relationship. Perhaps Elizabeth is ready to trade her "good girl" image for adventure. Jack sees the medallion on her--- just as he sees her pirate nature within.

all the scenes between them seem to follow that pattern of really deep interaction going on--- not just between Jack and Elizabeth, but within themselves. All their inner conflict is actively and materially shown in their interaction with the other person. Jack's main inner conflict centers around him trying to squelch the "good man" within and obtain freedom. Elizabeth's main inner conflict centers around her desire for freedom and adventure being checked by her victorian morality and the expectations of society. they are both going with their instincts around each other. it doesnt always add up to bliss or a perfect ending, but its thrilling, its ingenius, its addicting.

I think people settled for the L/W relationship in one because it was disney, and because they had pushed the envelope on so many other points of the story. i went in to movie 2 fully expecting to see ELizabeth and Will continue their relationship quietly amidst some new fun adventure. once those expectations were ruined and the writers picked up running with "it would never had worked between us, darling", i was hooked. not because j/l was most logical (liz and will are still engaged and certainly still love each other)... but because it sparked my imagination beyond a physical connection and into a deep almost spiritual connection.

i know that was a lot of rambling but do you get why there is depth there now?


i havent read the lovely bones but i have heard great things about it. Little WOmen!!! i was just thinking i wanted to read that again this morning. brilliance. sigh... have you read the Screwtape Letters?

you both are right!! and lovely bones is good and so is secret garden and little women. lol i love those kinds of books you guys should try echoes by daniel steel it is really good.

anyways love does conquer all and the thing is Jack has fallen in love and liz loves them both. Also as Kate said the fact that they even made it seem like Jack and liz were a couple blew the audiance away it was magnifant brilliant. I think it is more on who liz is going to choose who she feels best with and it doesn't mean she is going to choose Wil becuz she is engaged to him and not Jack becuz he is a pirate it all depands on what guy takes her breath away and from eveidence on DMC it showed that Jack does exactly that!