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H2h no OE.

Who wins?

Is this Non Jobbing DS, DS from pre IC? or the new DS after IC?

Just average DS

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Just average DS

No way to tell. There are so many version of him. Old school DS would beat the shit out of Despero. Pre Infinite Crisis DS would lose. Post IC DS would probably win. We don't have any hand to hand showing yet tho.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
No way to tell. There are so many version of him. Old school DS would beat the shit out of Despero. Pre Infinite Crisis DS would lose. Post IC DS would probably win. We don't have any hand to hand showing yet tho.
Well since he didn't specify, that means that it would go to the most recent version. And since it would qualify as a spite thread to have DS with the ALE, I'm assuming that he means the most recent non-ALE DS.

Anyway, I give DS a decent majority here. Maybe..7-8/10.

A non-jobbing DS would win every single time. Even without the OE.

Darkseid is a god.

Another way of looking at it is that a non-jobbing DS is stronger than Superman.
The whole OE thing is simply a plot device ....similar to Dr Strange being able to call upon the Vishanti, or Thanos with the IG, or Hal as Parallax. With those attributes they are all beyond powerful ....but the thing is even WITHOUT them they are still ungodly (eg even without the vishanti Strange is a beast, without the IG Thanos is still a raging juggernaut - the real meaning of a juggernaut - and without all the power of Oa Hal is still one of the few people you don't want taking an unpleasant interest in you).

Same with Darkseid. As a god, his abilities are simply beyond those of Despero.
Hand to hand he would crush Mr I-have-a-third-eye, and do it easily.

If you add in their other powers ....i.e Despero can use his telepathy, and Darkseid can use whatever he wants, the fight simply ends faster. IT doesn't enable Darkseid to have a greater chance of winning (since either way he would win 10/10), it simply makes him win in a fraction of an instant instead of 'merely' an instant.

Oh .....and talking about telepathy.
Well, Despero is an AMAZING telepath, but he has NOTHING on Darkseid. Think of it this way ....Despero was mentally messing with the JLA, which is amazing in itself.
But Darkseid mentally controlled 3 BILLION DAXAMITES (think of a Daxamite as a Kryptonian, with all the powers since they are related, with the only difference being that Daxamites are allergic to lead).

Simply put even in telepathy Despero has nothing on Darkseid.

Now, let's look at Darkseid's other powers .....without mentioning the Omega effect.

Darkseid not only has super strength, but he also has an extremely high level of invulnerability! High enough to take blows for Superman with impunity, or to make Lobo mess up his hand when he tried to punch Darkseid.

Thus the question is, how is Despero even going to hurt Darkseid in a hand-2-hand match?

Then there is the fact that Darkseid can transmute matter ....and could thus turn Despero into stone with a single thought, or turn him to ash, or turn him (arguably) into swiss cheese!

Oh, and this is without using the omega effect.

In a nutshell, Darkseid is a character that should be almost impossible to beat (unless he is facing someone on a plane of power that is simply beyond indescribable). Virtually 99% of the cases where Darkseid is defeated is due to PIS/CIS/jobbing.
It is that simple.

The thing is, in KMC characters are not allowed to job.

In Darkseid's case this means one thing .....Despero gets a serious beating handed to him, and Darkseid wins this match 10/10.
And does so easily.

P.S: Actually most of the matches you see Darkseid put in on KMC are matches that Darkseid would easily win, but normally you see people simply saying 'X' character could beat Darkseid, and then listing all the various powers and feats of 'X' character - without listing the feats and abilities of Darkseid.
Whcih is a major failing point of KMC .....people will debate characters by simply saying that their fave character can do this and that, but they never bother to look at what the OTHER cat can do!
This is why you see people putting characters like Colossus against characters like Superman!
They look at Colossus and see a hulking brute who has superstrength up the wazoo, and can bend steel like shredded butter! A true champion.
However they simply ignore the fact that anything Colossus can do Superman can do better (goodness, even Superboy is beyond Colossus in virtually every single way), and that Superman has a whole host of OTHER abilities and attributes that Colossus doesn't have (any ONE of which could end the fight all by itself!!!!).
And moreover in a KMC match, with characters not allowed to job, a character like Colossus would be wiped out by a character like Superman in less than a second. Unlike comics (where Colossus actually stands up against people like Gladiator), in KMC PIS/CIS induced jobbing is not present. Thus someone like Gladiator or Superman would destroy Colossus in less than a second.
Yet you see people post pictures of Colossus doing all sorts of feats and use them as justification of why he should win.

No matter how powerful character 'X' might be, that is all for naught if character 'Y' is simply on another level of power.

E.G: Quicksilver is fast .....very fast.
But compared to Wally West .........................................

Darkseid physically lost to Supes, Desespero thrashed Superman with other three guys. Who knows, maybe Desespero is even imnune to the OE.

Originally posted by spetznaz
A non-jobbing DS would win every single time. Even without the OE.

Darkseid is a god.

Another way of looking at it is that a non-jobbing DS is stronger than Superman.
The whole OE thing is simply a plot device ....similar to Dr Strange being able to call upon the Vishanti, or Thanos with the IG, or Hal as Parallax. With those attributes they are all beyond powerful ....but the thing is even WITHOUT them they are still ungodly (eg even without the vishanti Strange is a beast, without the IG Thanos is still a raging juggernaut - the real meaning of a juggernaut - and without all the power of Oa Hal is still one of the few people you don't want taking an unpleasant interest in you).

Same with Darkseid. As a god, his abilities are simply beyond those of Despero.
Hand to hand he would crush Mr I-have-a-third-eye, and do it easily.

If you add in their other powers ....i.e Despero can use his telepathy, and Darkseid can use whatever he wants, the fight simply ends faster. IT doesn't enable Darkseid to have a greater chance of winning (since either way he would win 10/10), it simply makes him win in a fraction of an instant instead of 'merely' an instant.

Oh .....and talking about telepathy.
Well, Despero is an AMAZING telepath, but he has NOTHING on Darkseid. Think of it this way ....Despero was mentally messing with the JLA, which is amazing in itself.
But Darkseid mentally controlled 3 BILLION DAXAMITES (think of a Daxamite as a Kryptonian, with all the powers since they are related, with the only difference being that Daxamites are allergic to lead).

Simply put even in telepathy Despero has nothing on Darkseid.

Now, let's look at Darkseid's other powers .....without mentioning the Omega effect.

Darkseid not only has super strength, but he also has an extremely high level of invulnerability! High enough to take blows for Superman with impunity, or to make Lobo mess up his hand when he tried to punch Darkseid.

Thus the question is, how is Despero even going to hurt Darkseid in a hand-2-hand match?

Then there is the fact that Darkseid can transmute matter ....and could thus turn Despero into stone with a single thought, or turn him to ash, or turn him (arguably) into swiss cheese!

Oh, and this is without using the omega effect.

In a nutshell, Darkseid is a character that should be almost impossible to beat (unless he is facing someone on a plane of power that is simply beyond indescribable). Virtually 99% of the cases where Darkseid is defeated is due to PIS/CIS/jobbing.
It is that simple.

The thing is, in KMC characters are not allowed to job.

In Darkseid's case this means one thing .....Despero gets a serious beating handed to him, and Darkseid wins this match 10/10.
And does so easily.

P.S: Actually most of the matches you see Darkseid put in on KMC are matches that Darkseid would easily win, but normally you see people simply saying 'X' character could beat Darkseid, and then listing all the various powers and feats of 'X' character - without listing the feats and abilities of Darkseid.
Whcih is a major failing point of KMC .....people will debate characters by simply saying that their fave character can do this and that, but they never bother to look at what the OTHER cat can do!
This is why you see people putting characters like Colossus against characters like Superman!
They look at Colossus and see a hulking brute who has superstrength up the wazoo, and can bend steel like shredded butter! A true champion.
However they simply ignore the fact that anything Colossus can do Superman can do better (goodness, even Superboy is beyond Colossus in virtually every single way), and that Superman has a whole host of OTHER abilities and attributes that Colossus doesn't have (any ONE of which could end the fight all by itself!!!!).
And moreover in a KMC match, with characters not allowed to job, a character like Colossus would be wiped out by a character like Superman in less than a second. Unlike comics (where Colossus actually stands up against people like Gladiator), in KMC PIS/CIS induced jobbing is not present. Thus someone like Gladiator or Superman would destroy Colossus in less than a second.
Yet you see people post pictures of Colossus doing all sorts of feats and use them as justification of why he should win.

No matter how powerful character 'X' might be, that is all for naught if character 'Y' is simply on another level of power.

E.G: Quicksilver is fast .....very fast.
But compared to Wally West ......................................... co-sign.

Desespero.

Because he still brings effeciency and holds a good record. Darkseid has lost that in years.

Originally posted by Bentley
Darkseid physically lost to Supes, Desespero thrashed Superman with other three guys. Who knows, maybe Desespero is even imnune to the OE.

If you go through my post you will notice that I reference KMC rules several times, namely that in KMC characters are not (in essence) allowed to job or have PIS/CIS working for/against them.

The main importance of this is that you have characters going at their best, and most importantly utilizing the attributes/aspects/power-sets/capabilities inherent in the character.

True, Darkseid has lost to Superman. In one showing Superman toyed with Darkseid.
However that was basically a job ....it would be like me saying that Batman can defeat the Hulk because in a showing Bruce kicked the Hulk (the famous 'batkick') in the solar plexus, making the Hulk gasp (yep) and thus inhale a gas that took him out.
That is pure nonsense ....but it happened in comics. Does that mean Bruce can take out Banner's alter-ego?

Or the several showings where Wolverine actually manages to go toe to toe with the Hulk.

Or the time that Colossus was basically pawning Gladiator (although that is, arguably, possible ....if Gladiator is totally insecure, which would affect his power sets. Although in a KMC battle Gladiator would be at his best, and thus Colossus would be totally inept against him).

Thus ....we are not talking about showings where characters job. Once WonderWoman blocked the OE with her gauntlets, and while they are formed from the magic of the Aegis shield, and thus have amazing protection, Darkseid should have been able to simply twist the OE around her ....or make it disappear and appear behind her ....or done a good number of things. But he was not drawn as doing so.
If it were a KMC match it would have ended very differently.

Anyways, the long and short of it is this. Despero is beneath Darkseid. In every single way (apart from a matchup involving counting the number of eyes one has).
Darkseid is stronger than Despero.
He is more resilient (think of it this way ....Lobo hurt himself trying to punch Darkseid).
He has far better telepathy (eg controlling 3 billion daxamites)
He has transmutation abilities (eg he could turn Despero into sand with a thought).

Darkseid is Despero's better in every single way .....and that is without using the Omega Effect.

Per KMC rules, and with logic, Darkseid wins 10/10. There is really nothing Despero can do to harm Darkseid, and there are a wealth of things Darkseid can do to make Despero's attempt at fighting him futile and painful.

So we ignore comics for what we dont want, and accept only the good showings?

Like not accepting the guy hasent been in the zone most of post crisis history, and definatly not the level he once was? Thats a bit of handbook reasoning, if you dont mind me speaking my mind.

Does that means that Kalibak is cl 100, altho i dont belive for almost a sec that he ever won against a top tier?

Darkseid.

Originally posted by olympian
So we ignore comics for what we dont want, and accept only the good showings?

Like not accepting the guy hasent been in the zone most of post crisis history, and definatly not the level he once was? Thats a bit of handbook reasoning, if you dont mind me speaking my mind.

Does that means that Kalibak is cl 100, altho i dont belive for almost a sec that he ever won against a top tier? Outside of the last 5 years, Darkseid has been in good form though. And in that 5 years, the only low showings to account to him really are the losses to Supes. The rest of the low showings have been retconned or written off as Desaad. Meanwhile most of his good feats are indeed post Crisis, like against Secret, helping beat Imperiex, the dozens of times he's swatted around Supes and other leaguers like flies, against Aries with the Godwave, killing armies and pantheons of Gods, all in post Crisis continuity. He even created a god.

ANd Kalibak is class 100, he's just got "Rhino" syndrome. Stengthwise, he's considered about ORION's equal... however, like you said, I don't think I've ever really seen him win over anyone in their right mind. He gets outbattled, rather than overpowered.

Thats exactly what i mean. If going by what the guy is "suposse" to be he would be cl 100. But dang if i ever saw him winning against someone high in the power or strength pole. I actually think his best showings wer against Orion way back in the 70`s when he managed to overpower him for a bit and that was when his strength was augmented.

Thus the guy isent on my book cl 100 if hes got nothing to show it. In my view, the low showings are usually to peg down characters or stick them in a level. Superman by his higher feats would be above top tier, but he isent because his low drag him on that level. Same with pretty much any character.

Originally posted by olympian
Thats exactly what i mean. If going by what the guy is "suposse" to be he would be cl 100. But dang if i ever saw him winning against someone high in the power or strength pole. I actually think his best showings wer against Orion way back in the 70`s when he managed to overpower him for a bit and that was when his strength was augmented.

Thus the guy isent on my book cl 100 if hes got nothing to show it. In my view, the low showings are usually to peg down characters or stick them in a level. Superman by his higher feats would be above top tier, but he isent because his low drag him on that level. Same with pretty much any character. I guess you haven't seen Kalibak doing things like slapping around the Supermen of America then? He loses, but his physical strength isn't really in question. He locks up and goes blow for blow for top tiers. He loses, but he does it. He usually just gets outsmarted or outbattled. IF you saw him get overpowered by Booster Gold, I might agree.

Originally posted by olympian
So we ignore comics for what we dont want, and accept only the good showings?

Like not accepting the guy hasent been in the zone most of post crisis history, and definatly not the level he once was? Thats a bit of handbook reasoning, if you dont mind me speaking my mind.

Does that means that Kalibak is cl 100, altho i dont belive for almost a sec that he ever won against a top tier?

No. That is not what I am saying (and an honest reading of both my posts would easily show that).

What I am saying is that comic book matches (in print) occasionally tend to have skewed outcomes. Outcomes that shouldn't logically occur (e.g the various Wolverine vs Hulk showings, which are basically Canonical). Just because something is printed doesn't mean it is adheres to logic.

Furthermore a quick look at KMC rules should reveal what exactly should be the bastion of character fights in KMC (although that is, sadly, not always followed).

It is not about ignoring 'bad' showings and only using 'good' ones. It is about applied logic. There are some bad showings that should not have happened, and some good showings that should not have happened ....for every character.
Which is obviously something that will always happen since the characters are fictional and written by different writers, some of which simply tend to remove certain character traits and abilities (diluting the character), and others who instead add them (making the character more uber than he/she/it should historically be).

It is not about ignoring 'bad' showings and only looking at the 'good' ....otherwise I would be one of those people who claim that Wolverine can 'beat' the Hulk. Wolverine has some very nice showings, but many of them are just illogical fart jobs (although a good number of them have a reason ....many were during a point when comic sales were at an ebb, and both DC and Marvel went through dire straits with a good number of the smaller comic houses simply going bankrupt. For Marvel they realized that Wolverine was a very strong sale, and to kick buyers coming his showings tended to undergo certain 'amps' when it comes to feats. Those feats were important in giving rise to the Wolvie fanboy ....although ironically most of the current fanboys probably weren't even chewing solid food, and some weren't even born, when Wolvie started having stupid feats).

Originally posted by spetznaz
A non-jobbing DS would win every single time. Even without the OE.

Darkseid is a god.

Another way of looking at it is that a non-jobbing DS is stronger than Superman.
The whole OE thing is simply a plot device ....similar to Dr Strange being able to call upon the Vishanti, or Thanos with the IG, or Hal as Parallax. With those attributes they are all beyond powerful ....but the thing is even WITHOUT them they are still ungodly (eg even without the vishanti Strange is a beast, without the IG Thanos is still a raging juggernaut - the real meaning of a juggernaut - and without all the power of Oa Hal is still one of the few people you don't want taking an unpleasant interest in you).

Same with Darkseid. As a god, his abilities are simply beyond those of Despero.
Hand to hand he would crush Mr I-have-a-third-eye, and do it easily.

If you add in their other powers ....i.e Despero can use his telepathy, and Darkseid can use whatever he wants, the fight simply ends faster. IT doesn't enable Darkseid to have a greater chance of winning (since either way he would win 10/10), it simply makes him win in a fraction of an instant instead of 'merely' an instant.

Oh .....and talking about telepathy.
Well, Despero is an AMAZING telepath, but he has NOTHING on Darkseid. Think of it this way ....Despero was mentally messing with the JLA, which is amazing in itself.
But Darkseid mentally controlled 3 BILLION DAXAMITES (think of a Daxamite as a Kryptonian, with all the powers since they are related, with the only difference being that Daxamites are allergic to lead).

Simply put even in telepathy Despero has nothing on Darkseid.

Now, let's look at Darkseid's other powers .....without mentioning the Omega effect.

Darkseid not only has super strength, but he also has an extremely high level of invulnerability! High enough to take blows for Superman with impunity, or to make Lobo mess up his hand when he tried to punch Darkseid.

Thus the question is, how is Despero even going to hurt Darkseid in a hand-2-hand match?

Then there is the fact that Darkseid can transmute matter ....and could thus turn Despero into stone with a single thought, or turn him to ash, or turn him (arguably) into swiss cheese!

Oh, and this is without using the omega effect.

In a nutshell, Darkseid is a character that should be almost impossible to beat (unless he is facing someone on a plane of power that is simply beyond indescribable). Virtually 99% of the cases where Darkseid is defeated is due to PIS/CIS/jobbing.
It is that simple.

The thing is, in KMC characters are not allowed to job.

In Darkseid's case this means one thing .....Despero gets a serious beating handed to him, and Darkseid wins this match 10/10.
And does so easily.

P.S: Actually most of the matches you see Darkseid put in on KMC are matches that Darkseid would easily win, but normally you see people simply saying 'X' character could beat Darkseid, and then listing all the various powers and feats of 'X' character - without listing the feats and abilities of Darkseid.
Whcih is a major failing point of KMC .....people will debate characters by simply saying that their fave character can do this and that, but they never bother to look at what the OTHER cat can do!
This is why you see people putting characters like Colossus against characters like Superman!
They look at Colossus and see a hulking brute who has superstrength up the wazoo, and can bend steel like shredded butter! A true champion.
However they simply ignore the fact that anything Colossus can do Superman can do better (goodness, even Superboy is beyond Colossus in virtually every single way), and that Superman has a whole host of OTHER abilities and attributes that Colossus doesn't have (any ONE of which could end the fight all by itself!!!!).
And moreover in a KMC match, with characters not allowed to job, a character like Colossus would be wiped out by a character like Superman in less than a second. Unlike comics (where Colossus actually stands up against people like Gladiator), in KMC PIS/CIS induced jobbing is not present. Thus someone like Gladiator or Superman would destroy Colossus in less than a second.
Yet you see people post pictures of Colossus doing all sorts of feats and use them as justification of why he should win.

No matter how powerful character 'X' might be, that is all for naught if character 'Y' is simply on another level of power.

E.G: Quicksilver is fast .....very fast.
But compared to Wally West .........................................

Co-Freaking Signed.

Well. I was actually convinced by what Juntai said the first time around, fighting Supes in the sun is a good feat. I just didnt post anything after that because I was thinking about Puck's powers.

Originally posted by spetznaz
Then please explain Lobo punching Darkseid, and the only outcome being that Lobo hurt his hand?

Lobo's strength levels are also prodigous, but his efforts were for naught.

And yes, Superman managed to damage Darkseid. In a rather spectacular manner by the way (before flying him him to the Source wall and pinning him there). However if you note Supes was doing that next to the sun.

Close proximity to the sun has interesting effects on Kryptonians. Kind of like force-feeding spinach to Popeye ....for days straight.

Anyways, you say that Despero can beat Darkseid because Despero could beat Superman, and thus that means that Despero can beat Darkseid. An indirect connection, but let's accept that for the sake of argument.

I say that Lobo punched Darkseid, and the only effect was pain for Lobo. A direct connection.

Since you want to rely solely on comic book feats, which one is greater? Both are in print, both are canon.
Despero is stronger than Superman (non-sundipped ofcourse), and so is Lobo. So which showing is paramount?

Oh ...also note that comic showings tend to vary in power. For instance one moment you have character 'X' performing nigh cosmic feats, the next the same character is defeated by some street level punk.
Which showing is paramount.

This is where logic comes in ....and the character's historical abilities (think of it as a baseline, for instance in some showings Superman has felt batman's punch, in others he sneezed away a galaxy .....both are silly) ....basically a holistic perspective of the character.

Then institute KMC rules.

The result is that Wolverine cannot beat the Hulk, that Rogue cannot absorb the Surfer, and Deathstroke cannot trip the Flash (no matter how fast Slade's mind operates).


Anyways ...I'll respond to any rebuffs after work.

Your logic will fall on def ears when it comes to certain characters. period

Originally posted by Bentley
Well. I was actually convinced by what Juntai said the first time around, fighting Supes in the sun is a good feat. I just didnt post anything after that because I was thinking about Puck's powers.

Originally posted by nvrbeenwthagirl
Your logic will fall on def ears when it comes to certain characters. period

Dont be sour, I already conceded this, Darkseid wins.

Originally posted by Bentley
Dont be sour, I already conceded this, Darkseid wins.

It is not about this thread. It's about the logic that he is talking about when it comes to all the battles here. Don't try and call me sour and you dont' know what i"m talking about.

Well then, dont let it get into you, there are way too many posters that arent good with logic to be bothered everytime.