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Who wins?

"I've already played this fight out a thousand times in my mind from every possible angle. You were beaten before you even came here."

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
"I've already played this fight out a thousand times in my mind from every possible angle. You were beaten before you even came here."
"million" not "thousand".

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
"million" not "thousand". I'm pretty sure I took that verbatim. But there are other times when he's said million too. Either way you end up with a dead Daredevil.

after reading midnighters bio, this seems abit lopsided


poor dd

although

DD's combat "precog" seems like it might equalize midnighters extremely useless mass-calculations here

Hm...common knowledge about the character would not give Midnighter info on Daredevil's radar sense.

Thus, Midnighter would play out a million different scenarios, but they'd all be flawed since he'd be lacking a very important piece of information--DD's radar sense.

After careful consideration, I think I'm going to give this fight to Daredevil.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Hm...common knowledge about the character would not give Midnighter info on Daredevil's radar sense.

Thus, Midnighter would play out a million different scenarios, but they'd all be flawed since he'd be lacking a very important piece of information--DD's radar sense.

After careful consideration, I think I'm going to give this fight to Daredevil.

Midnighter, although his ability to calculate "a million possibilities before the fight begins" is just a stupid PIS ability which Im not too fond of, but he's still cool.

Midnighter, he's prob faster then DD could physically avoid (sure he might see it, but he can't always dodge it)

Originally posted by boriquaking55
Midnighter, although his ability to calculate "a million possibilities before the fight begins" is just a stupid PIS ability which Im not too fond of, but he's still cool.

It has to do with his combat implants, which allow him to see upgrades in others as well as run combat scenarios, millions per second.

So no, it's not just a PIS power that he magically does....it has a logical backing.

Originally posted by DigiMark007
It has to do with his combat implants, which allow him to see upgrades in others as well as run combat scenarios, millions per second.

So no, it's not just a PIS power that he magically does....it has a logical backing.

even with the implants it seems silly

Originally posted by boriquaking55
even with the implants it seems silly

Fair enough. Hearing well enough to see better than regular humans seems silli-er to me, but to each his own.

Walking around with a magical hammer and carefully trimmed goldilocks spouting out Olde-English threats and swears is silliest.

I win.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Hm...common knowledge about the character would not give Midnighter info on Daredevil's radar sense.

Thus, Midnighter would play out a million different scenarios, but they'd all be flawed since he'd be lacking a very important piece of information--DD's radar sense.

After careful consideration, I think I'm going to give this fight to Daredevil.


im starting to think about it more

and im starting to agre with you

plus
how could i betray my dear daredevil?

Originally posted by Soljer


Oh come on, Soljer. Don't give me that. Debate with me. Convince me otherwise.

I'm not convinced that Midnighter could counter DD's radar sense--ESPECIALLY when he doesn't know about it beforehand.

Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
im starting to think about it more

and im starting to agre with you

plus
how could i betray my dear daredevil?

I mean, it does make sense, doesn't it?

Originally posted by DigiMark007
Fair enough. Hearing well enough to see better than regular humans seems silli-er to me, but to each his own.



well that has some basis in RL, I guess it works like bat's radar

Originally posted by Metalmanx
I mean, it does make sense, doesn't it?

it does

becuase any calculation he could make about his attacks could be countered just as easily by DD
seeing how he has extra sensory preseption of movements

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Oh come on, Soljer. Don't give me that. Debate with me. Convince me otherwise.

I'm not convinced that Midnighter could counter DD's radar sense--ESPECIALLY when he doesn't know about it beforehand.

I don't think Midnighter would HAVE to counter Daredevils' radar sense. That's not how the 'combat scenario' works. He views every possible move, and then every possible counter, and then every possible counter to every possible counter, and then....

The fact that Daredevil uses a radar sense doesn't come into play.

Especially when you consider that the Midnighter is quite a bit faster and stronger than Matt.

The only reason I rolled my eyes is because, honestly, I've seen you give a heavy favoritism to Daredevil on more than one occasion.

. As far as the actual fight goes, Midnighter should be the clear winner.

Originally posted by Soljer
I don't think Midnighter would HAVE to counter Daredevils' radar sense. That's not how the 'combat scenario' works. He views every possible move, and then every possible counter, and then every possible counter to every possible counter, and then....

The fact that Daredevil uses a radar sense doesn't come into play.

Especially when you consider that the Midnighter is quite a bit faster and stronger than Matt.

. As far as the actual fight goes, Midnighter should be the clear winner. co-signed!

Originally posted by Soljer
I don't think Midnighter would HAVE to counter Daredevils' radar sense. That's not how the 'combat scenario' works. He views every possible move, and then every possible counter, and then every possible counter to every possible counter, and then....

The fact that Daredevil uses a radar sense doesn't come into play.

Especially when you consider that the Midnighter is quite a bit faster and stronger than Matt.

The only reason I rolled my eyes is because, honestly, I've seen you give a heavy favoritism to Daredevil on more than one occasion.

. As far as the actual fight goes, Midnighter should be the clear winner.

Eh, you can believe that if you want. I only give Daredevil the win when I believe he deserves it.

But seriously though, convince me here. I'm not seeing how Midnighter could account for, even with his millions of calculations, DD's radar sense when he doesn't even know he has one. It would throw off each and every counter and counter-counter that Midnighter originally came up with.

I just want to understand how Midnighter would be prepared for that.

And could you provide me with some comic scans to show Midnighter's speed?

Originally posted by Metalmanx
I'm not seeing how Midnighter could account for, even with his millions of calculations, DD's radar sense when he doesn't even know he has one. It would throw off each and every counter and counter-counter that Midnighter originally came up with.


thats exactly what i was getting at

how could Midnighter develop a counter for a counter, when that counter itself, can be countered?

do we have an endless paradox of counters when these two meet?

on the other hand, Physically, how up thier is midnighter? and is he a pertty rediculous h2h guy? Becuase he really needs to be here

Originally posted by Soljer
I don't think Midnighter would HAVE to counter Daredevils' radar sense. That's not how the 'combat scenario' works. He views every possible move, and then every possible counter, and then every possible counter to every possible counter, and then....

The fact that Daredevil uses a radar sense doesn't come into play.

Especially when you consider that the Midnighter is quite a bit faster and stronger than Matt.

The only reason I rolled my eyes is because, honestly, I've seen you give a heavy favoritism to Daredevil on more than one occasion.

. As far as the actual fight goes, Midnighter should be the clear winner.

Metalmanx has a point though

In MN'er's calculations and combat scenerios, he would not have accounted for DD's virtual pre-cog, equating to a heavy increase in combat reflexes then what MN'er would have expected.

Of course, after MN'er DOES see the increase in combat reflexes, he'll simply come up with NEW combat scenerios.

Midnighter 9/10

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Eh, you can believe that if you want. I only give Daredevil the win when I believe he deserves it.

But seriously though, convince me here. I'm not seeing how Midnighter could account for, even with his millions of calculations, DD's radar sense when he doesn't even know he has one. It would throw off each and every counter and counter-counter that Midnighter originally came up with.

I just want to understand how Midnighter would be prepared for that.

And could you provide me with some comic scans to show Midnighter's speed? http://static.flickr.com/56/128736805_8356e3818a_o.jpg
http://static.flickr.com/54/128737009_629d2f4cce_o.jpg

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
Metalmanx has a point though

In MN'er's calculations and combat scenerios, he would not have accounted for DD's virtual pre-cog, equating to a heavy increase in combat reflexes then what MN'er would have expected.

Of course, after MN'er DOES see the increase in combat reflexes, he'll simply come up with NEW combat scenerios.

Midnighter 9/10

Isn't it possible that before MN'er gets a chance to come up with new combat scenarios, DD could put him down? I'm being serious. I mean, he comes at DD with a strategy, and it's COMPLETELY off. DD then lands several or so devastating blows since MN'er can't account for the radar sense yet. I mean, isn't it possible? It sounds like the most logical thing for me.

Besides, how do you counter DD's radar sense?

To NinoArana: That speed is impressive, I won't lie. Regardless, it's unknown as to how DD can handle that speed. I mean, he does REGULARLY bat away bullets with his billy-clubs. I'm just saying.

Right now I'd go so far as to say 5/10 for each.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Eh, you can believe that if you want. I only give Daredevil the win when I believe he deserves it.

But seriously though, convince me here. I'm not seeing how Midnighter could account for, even with his millions of calculations, DD's radar sense when he doesn't even know he has one. It would throw off each and every counter and counter-counter that Midnighter originally came up with.

I just want to understand how Midnighter would be prepared for that.

And could you provide me with some comic scans to show Midnighter's speed?

He needn't take into account the radar sense. As spunky said, he could take it into account as increased combat reflexes (and run the calculations DURING combat itself) for the same end result.

The counter-by-counter calculation need not take into account radar sense. It's more of "he attacks, I block, I attack, he blocks, I jump, he jumps, I block, he blocks, I attack, I put my fist through his skull."

In a million different variations. Including some where Daredevil may or may not be faster than Midnighter himself, and some where Daredevil may or may not be stronger, and some where Daredevil turns into a fifty foot pink bunny rabbit.

.

Seriously though, Midnighter 9/10.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Isn't it possible that before MN'er gets a chance to come up with new combat scenarios, DD could put him down? I'm being serious.

Simply?

No.

.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Isn't it possible that before MN'er gets a chance to come up with new combat scenarios, DD could put him down? I'm being serious. I mean, he comes at DD with a strategy, and it's COMPLETELY off. DD then lands several or so devastating blows since MN'er can't account for the radar sense yet. I mean, isn't it possible? It sounds like the most logical thing for me.

Besides, how do you counter DD's radar sense?

To NinoArana: That speed is impressive, I won't lie. Regardless, it's unknown as to how DD can handle that speed. I mean, he does REGULARLY bat away bullets with his billy-clubs. I'm just saying.

Right now I'd go so far as to say 5/10 for each.


I agree

the only reason im a bit unsure is becuase im not sure the extent of midnighters physical abilities

but your right, thier isint reallya counter for radar sense. Essentially, he is just as intelligable in this fight as midnighters 329392399329 calculations

Originally posted by Soljer
He needn't take into account the radar sense. As spunky said, he could take it into account as increased combat reflexes (and run the calculations DURING combat itself) for the same end result.

The counter-by-counter calculation need not take into account radar sense. It's more of "he attacks, I block, I attack, he blocks, I jump, he jumps, I block, he blocks, I attack, I put my fist through his skull."

In a million different variations. Including some where Daredevil may or may not be faster than Midnighter himself, and some where Daredevil may or may not be stronger, and some where Daredevil turns into a fifty foot pink bunny rabbit.

.

Seriously though, Midnighter 9/10.

Serious question here:

According to his own calculations, does Midnighter win every scenario he comes up with?

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Isn't it possible that before MN'er gets a chance to come up with new combat scenarios, DD could put him down? I'm being serious. I mean, he comes at DD with a strategy, and it's COMPLETELY off. DD then lands several or so devastating blows since MN'er can't account for the radar sense yet. I mean, isn't it possible? It sounds like the most logical thing for me.

Besides, how do you counter DD's radar sense?

To NinoArana: That speed is impressive, I won't lie. Regardless, it's unknown as to how DD can handle that speed. I mean, he does REGULARLY bat away bullets with his billy-clubs. I'm just saying.

Right now I'd go so far as to say 5/10 for each. He doesnt just have one scenario, he calculates a million per secound. I know it sounds dumb but its a comic book. I dont think he will have a delay 'thinking up a new plan'

also I like to add before it brought up that pressure point attacks are not nearly as effect as people think. Yes they work, but they are very hard to get at. At least the ones that KO a person. You need to actaully hit many pruessure points in a certain orde rin msot cases

Midnighter gets a lot of credit in the speed department for a guy who, aside form catching two arrows and speed blitzing some random fodder early on, has done nothing...

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Midnighter gets a lot of credit in the speed department for a guy who, aside form catching two arrows and speed blitzing some random fodder early on, has done nothing...

thiersa big questionmark hanging over midnighers head right now

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Serious question here:

According to his own calculations, does Midnighter win every scenario he comes up with?

extremely funny

yet ide like to know the answer as well

In on of the Kev issues Midnighter had three mercs with machine guns on him and he gave his whole "I've already run this fight a million times in my head" tough guy speech... only this time one of the guys asked "Oh, yeah what happens?" Which resulted in MN sneering and asking Apollo for back up. Apparently Midnight was talking out of his ass and would have been shot to shit if he made a move... which is pathetic considering some of the jams Captain America has gotten out of.

Honestly, Midnighter get why to much credit for a guy who has done nothing.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
In on of the Kev issues Midnighter had three mercs with machine guns on him and he gave his whole "I've already run this fight a million times in my head" tough guy speech... only this time one of the guys asked "Oh, yeah what happens?" Which resulted in MN sneering and asking Apollo for back up. Apparently Midnight was talking out of his ass and would have been shot to shit if he made a move... which is pathetic considering some of the jams Captain America has gotten out of.

Honestly, Midnighter get why to much credit for a guy who has done nothing.


hmmmm
thats interesting to know



with that said

is midnighter too obscure to accurately judge in this fight then?

There is plenty on MN to judge, only if you do it accurately you won't come to the same conclusion that the majority of people on KMC have apparently come to.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
There is plenty on MN to judge, only if you do it accurately you won't come to the same conclusion that the majority of people on KMC have apparently come to.

i see


i just havent seen much midnighter

didnt he show up in the 52 for a few issues?

Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
i see


i just havent seen much midnighter

didnt he show up in the 52 for a few issues?

I stopped reading 52... but since MN is Wildstorm, I'm going to say no.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
There is plenty on MN to judge, only if you do it accurately you won't come to the same conclusion that the majority of people on KMC have apparently come to.
Aren't you just made at him because he beat the shit out of your precious Grifter and he has shown farmore then your little Wolverine?
I think yes since everytime I see a thread you keep posting that only scan about Midnighter which is pretty much considerable as PIS becasue that was the only time that happened to him.

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
Aren't you just made at him because he beat the shit out of your precious Grifter and he has shown far more then your little Wolverine?
I think yes since everytime I see a thread you keep posting that only scan about Midnighter which is pretty much considerable as PIS becasue that was the only time that happened to him.

What? Armageddon never happened! La la la, I can't hear you, la la la!

Anyway... what has Midnighter shown far more of when compared to Wolverine? I guess he has killed more cannon fodder with a baton... should I arrange a parade in his honor? The guy has done virtually nothing. He beats up a bunch of wannabes dressed up as established characters... but so what? I do the same thing every Halloween when I beat up the neighborhood kids that are dress up as Superman and Batman. Where is my parade?

I don't see how it's PIS either. When else has someone refused to fight Midnighter and forced him to make the first move, someone who wasn't cannon fodder? Midnighter's fighting style is reactive, not proactive.

Don't worry, I'm not bitter about Midnighter killing Grifter...

*twitch*

Midnighter... son of a ***** killed Grifter... ****ing son of a *****...

So anyway... Midnighter wins.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Hm...common knowledge about the character would not give Midnighter info on Daredevil's radar sense.

Thus, Midnighter would play out a million different scenarios, but they'd all be flawed since he'd be lacking a very important piece of information--DD's radar sense.

After careful consideration, I think I'm going to give this fight to Daredevil.

That does not make a difference. All midnighter needs to know is that DD is a fighter with certain capabilities, he doesnt need to know that some of these capabilities are given to him by his radar sense.

DD senses give him an edge but not a huge one. Everytime he comes up against experienced martial artists he gets tagged alot.

Originally posted by Alfheim
That does not make a difference. All midnighter needs to know is that DD is a fighter with certain capabilities, he doesnt need to know that some of these capabilities are given to him by his radar sense.

DD senses give him an edge but not a huge one. Everytime he comes up against experienced martial artists he gets tagged alot.

Me thinks you missed the point. Midnighter won't know that DD has any sort of "capabilities" at all, save that DD's a fighter.

Daredevil isn't wearing a sign on his forhead saying "I have a radar sense that vastly improves my senses and reaction time, just in case you were wondering".

How is Midnighter going to account for it if he doesn't know about it?

And no one answered my question earlier: "According to his own calculations, does Midnighter win every scenario he comes up with?"

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Me thinks you missed the point. Midnighter won't know that DD has any sort of "capabilities" at all, save that DD's a fighter.

Daredevil isn't wearing a sign on his forhead saying "I have a radar sense that vastly improves my senses and reaction time, just in case you were wondering".

How is Midnighter going to account for it if he doesn't know about it?

I didn't miss the point you did. I said he doesnt need to know. All he needs to know is that DD has increased reaction time and reflexes. All he needs to do is move so fast that he cant react. As I have mentioned before just knwoing something is going to happen doesnt mean you can stop it.

DDs radar sense is not good enough to give him the edge. If its so good how is iit non-enhnced humans like Punisher and Kingpin can put up a good fight. Whats the point of having a radar sense if Frank can shoot DD in the chest at close range and almost kill him.

Originally posted by Metalmanx

And no one answered my question earlier: "According to his own calculations, does Midnighter win every scenario he comes up with?"

Yes he thinks of a million scenarios in which he can win. I would presume thats why he says I have already beaten you a million times.

Midnighter has way greater strength and speed than DD. He's got the win here.

Originally posted by Alfheim


If its so good how is iit non-enhnced humans like Punisher and Kingpin can put up a good fight. Whats the point of having a radar sense if Frank can shoot DD in the chest at close range and almost kill him.



What?

Thats a bit inaccurate

DD has handed punisher and Kingpin their anuses
Utterly dominateing punisher somewaht recently, and slamming Kingpin ontop of a car and driveing it through a building with only a SLIGHT struggle (yes i realize daredevil took a few hits and was choked, but clearly, he was ready to handle business as the following events showed)


And i am ready to post scans incase you would like to see them (good comic)


DD is out of punisher and Kingpins leauge when it comes to h2h. And thats that

Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
What?

Thats absoltuely incorrect

DD has handed punisher and Kingpin their anuses
Utterly dominateing punisher somewaht recently, and slamming Kingpin ontop of a car and driveing it through a building with only a SLIGHT struggle (yes i realize daredevil took a few hits and was choked, but clearly, he was ready to handle business as the following events showed)


And i am ready to post scans if neccessairy


DD is out of punisher and Kingpins leauge when it comes to h2h. And thats that

Yes that maybe the case but that does not happen all the time. The point is it doesnt give him a huge advantage, its just like having enhanced reflexes that all.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yes he thinks of a million scenarios in which he can win. I would presume thats why he says I have already beaten you a million times.

So then, according to Midnighter, he takes into account everything? Meaning: Does he calculate what would happen if his opponent had Superman powers? Then telekinesis? Then super speed? Then super strength? Then flight? Then heigtened senses? Then energy projection abilities? Then reality-warping powers?

And he wins in every scenario? That doesn't make any sense.

So, if Midnighter were to go against Superman, would he win?

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yes that maybe the case but that does not happen all the time. The point is it doesnt give him a huge advantage, its just like having enhanced reflexes that all.

HA, you caught the original post
im sorry if that sounded a little hostile, i assure you thier is no hostility here

Originally posted by Metalmanx
So then, according to Midnighter, he takes into account everything? Meaning: Does he calculate what would happen if his opponent had Superman powers? Then telekinesis? Then super speed? Then super strength? Then flight? Then heigtened senses? Then energy projection abilities? Then reality-warping powers?

He would calculate what he percives and if its possible to beat them he would think of a million ways to beat him.

Originally posted by Metalmanx

And he wins in every scenario? That doesn't make any sense.

Well that depends on who he is fighting. Its obvously possible to beat DD so he would think of a million ways to beat him

Originally posted by Metalmanx

So, if Midnighter were to go against Superman, would he win?

C'mon man....gezzzzz!


Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
HA, you caught the original post
im sorry if that sounded a little hostile, i assure you thier is no hostility here

No its cool, you should meet some other people on this forum, you should see what rude is.

Originally posted by Alfheim
He would calculate what he percives and if its possible to beat them he would think of a million ways to beat him.

Well that depends on who he is fighting. Its obvously possible to beat DD so he would think of a million ways to beat him

C'mon man....gezzzzz!

Relax. I'm just trying to get a better understanding here.

So, against Superman, Midnighter would NOT calculate millions of ways to defeat him, correct?

Honestly, I think this can go 5/10 for each. Daredevil has his own tricks, too.

midnighters quesitonable fisical stats are keeping me from forming a final descision

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Relax. I'm just trying to get a better understanding here.

No im cool, its just the way I talk.


Originally posted by Metalmanx

So, against Superman, Midnighter would NOT calculate millions of ways to defeat him, correct?

No but obvoulsy you cant compare DD to Superman


Originally posted by Metalmanx

Honestly, I think this can go 5/10 for each. Daredevil has his own tricks, too.

I dont see what his radar sense is gonna do.

Spider-Man?

Captain America?

Colossus?

Cyclops?

Beast?

Psylocke?

Shadowcat?

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Spider-Man?

Captain America?

Colossus?

Cyclops?

Beast?

Psylocke?

Shadowcat?



Um what?

Originally posted by Alfheim
Um what?

Sorry, thought you were following me there.

How would Midnighter fare against these guys? Basically, would he be able to device a million strategies to defeat them everytime?

Spider-Man?

Captain America?

Colossus?

Cyclops?

Beast?

Psylocke?

Shadowcat?

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Sorry, thought you were following me there.

How would Midnighter fare against these guys? Basically, would he be able to device a million strategies to defeat them everytime?

Spider-Man?

Captain America?

Colossus?

Cyclops?

Beast?

Psylocke?

Shadowcat?

Im not sure about Collosus or Shadowcat, but lets put it this way if they can be beaten he will forumulate a million possibilities.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Im not sure about Collosus or Shadowcat, but lets put it this way if they can be beaten he will forumulate a million possibilities.

But that's the exact point I'm trying to make. The issue of whether or not they can be beaten is all RELATIVE. They can be beaten by other, more powerful opponents. But not by Midnighter. So in that case, does he calculuate a million different ways that he loses?

My real point here is that without any knowledge of Daredevil's superhuman powers, he's not going to be prepared for what happens. And then when Daredevil catches him completely off-guard and lands devastating blows, it could be too late for any sort of re-calculation to take place.

Which is why I stand by my 5/10 for each.

.....

The way it works is: Midnighter looks at every possible avenue. If it's within his power and resources to beat someone - he'll take that path.

You could look at it like chess. He calculates EVERY move, and EVERY possible move his opponent will make. Back and forth till there is a winner. He then makes the moves that make him the winner.

Now, lets say you want to pit Midnighter against Superman.

Using the chess analogy, Superman can now make (let's be conservative and say) twenty four moves to midnighter's one.

Or, we could say that Superman's pawns all become queens.

Or, we could go as far to say that EVERY piece of Superman's becomes a queen. Even the king - and the object of the game is STILL to get the king in checkmate. Which is now impossible to do so, since Superman's king is not on the board.

Midnighter can't possibly win. No matter how many times he calculates.

I'm not sure if my analogy is hitting home, so I'll explain it one more way:

If there IS an avenue to victory, midnighter will take it.

Another (probably fruitless, incoherent) metaphor: maps.

Say midnighter wants to get from downtown queens to ontario. Is there a way? He checks a map. He has a TON of possibilities. He could do thousands of different combinations of walking, swimming, flying, driving, or even bouncing on his friggin head to get from Queens to Ontario.

However, lets say his chosen destination is an alternate-universe Alpha Centuri(analogous to fighting superman again), and he doesn't have any sort of space travel options - much less DIMENSIONAL travel options. All he can do is walk, drive, fly, swim, sail, or bounce on his head.

He'll never calculate a way to get to this alternate alpha centuri because it's impossible to do so. There is no avenue he could POSSIBLY take to get there.

Does this make sense? At all? .

Originally posted by Soljer
.....

The way it works is: Midnighter looks at every possible avenue. If it's within his power and resources to beat someone - he'll take that path.

You could look at it like chess. He calculates EVERY move, and EVERY possible move his opponent will make. Back and forth till there is a winner. He then makes the moves that make him the winner.

Now, lets say you want to pit Midnighter against Superman.

Using the chess analogy, Superman can now make (let's be conservative and say) twenty four moves to midnighter's one.

Or, we could say that Superman's pawns all become queens.

Or, we could go as far to say that EVERY piece of Superman's becomes a queen. Even the king - and the object of the game is STILL to get the king in checkmate. Which is now impossible to do so, since Superman's king is not on the board.

Midnighter can't possibly win. No matter how many times he calculates.

I'm not sure if my analogy is hitting home, so I'll explain it one more way:

If there IS an avenue to victory, midnighter will take it.

Another (probably fruitless, incoherent) metaphor: maps.

Say midnighter wants to get from downtown queens to ontario. Is there a way? He checks a map. He has a TON of possibilities. He could do thousands of different combinations of walking, swimming, flying, driving, or even bouncing on his friggin head to get from Queens to Ontario.

However, lets say his chosen destination is an alternate-universe Alpha Centuri(analogous to fighting superman again), and he doesn't have any sort of space travel options - much less DIMENSIONAL travel options. All he can do is walk, drive, fly, swim, sail, or bounce on his head.

He'll never calculate a way to get to this alternate alpha centuri because it's impossible to do so. There is no avenue he could POSSIBLY take to get there.

Does this make sense? At all? .

Soljer, I completely understand how Midnighter's powers work now.

My only question is, how does he calculate victories if he DOES NOT know he can win?

Hypothetically-speaking, if DD suddenly had Sentry powers, but didn't look any different or give off any different signs, Midnighter would calculate incorrect strategies and be screwed.

Hm. Better way to put it. If MN'er just plain doesn't know what his opponent is capable of (he has no clue as to their powers/abilities), then how can he calculate a win? According to your logic, he can't unless he knows he can win. There are avenues he could take, but at the same time, he's basically lost all sense of direction. He doesn't know which way leads where. Not knowing his opponent's powers/abilities, it's analogous to dropping Midnighter in the desert with no map and no landmarks to help him, then tell him to find the way out. Of course there are millions, even billions, of different routes to take, but without any sort of hint/knowledge at all, he would have no clue as to which route to take. See what I mean?

Now, back on topic, not knowing DD's superhuman powers, how can he calculate a win against him at all?

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Soljer, I completely understand how Midnighter's powers work now.

My only question is, how does he calculate victories if he DOES NOT know he can win?

Hypothetically-speaking, if DD suddenly had Sentry powers, but didn't look any different or give off any different signs, Midnighter would calculate incorrect strategies and be screwed.

Hm. Better way to put it. If MN'er just plain doesn't know what his opponent is capable of (he has no clue as to their powers/abilities), then how can he calculate a win? According to your logic, he can't unless he knows he can win. There are avenues he could take, but at the same time, he's basically lost all sense of direction. He doesn't know which way leads where. Not knowing his opponent's powers/abilities, it's analogous to dropping Midnighter in the desert with no map and no landmarks to help him, then tell him to find the way out. Of course there are millions, even billions, of different routes to take, but without any sort of hint/knowledge at all, he would have no clue as to which route to take. See what I mean?

Now, back on topic, not knowing DD's superhuman powers, how can he calculate a win against him at all?

AH!!
it makes perfect sense

and thats a very good point

to use Soljers map analigy (im not as good as soljer is though )

Theoreticly, If midnighter has a treasure map and hes looking for treasure in a minefield, but thiers no glareing X on the map, how can he form a calculation? aside from a perhaps educated guess, he really has no clue where the treasure is

and in this case, the treasure is daredevils rawness, and the landmines are daredevil punching midnighter into submission


abnd theirs my crummy analigy

Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
AH!!
it makes perfect sense

and thats a very good point

to use Soljers map analigy (im not as good as soljer is though )

Theoreticly, If midnighter has a treasure map and hes looking for treasure in a minefield, but thiers no glareing X on the map, how can he form a calculation? aside from a perhaps educated guess, he really has no clue where the treasure is

and in this case, the treasure is daredevils rawness, and the landmines are daredevil punching midnighter into submission


abnd theirs my crummy analigy

I liked it.

Originally posted by Metalmanx

My real point here is that without any knowledge of Daredevil's superhuman powers, he's not going to be prepared for what happens. And then when Daredevil catches him completely off-guard and lands devastating blows, it could be too late for any sort of re-calculation to take place.



what sort of difference does his super powsers make thats my point. All his powers do is give hilm the equivalent of superhuman or enhanced reflexes.

Explain to me what happens when DD gets connected by the best MAs? I'll tell you what happened he knew what they were going to do but he was not fast enough to stop it

his radar sense does not make that much difference because it doesnt amke him as fast as Quicksilver.

Originally posted by Alfheim
what sort of difference does his super powsers make thats my point. All his powers do is give hilm the equivalent of superhuman or enhanced reflexes.

Explain to me what happens when DD gets connected by the best MAs? I'll tell you what happened he knew what they were going to do but he was not fast enough to stop it

his radar sense does not make that much difference because it doesnt amke him as fast as Quicksilver.

doh

Yes, but does Midnighter know that?

Originally posted by Metalmanx
I liked it.

Originally posted by Alfheim

Explain to me what happens when DD gets connected by the best MAs? I'll tell you what happened he knew what they were going to do but he was not fast enough to stop it



And thast why im still a bit hesistant as i do not know the "average" of midnighters showings

But one thing, IMO, i would put DD on the tippy top of non superhuman martial artists and this could get me in alot of trouble but i think he could even take a small majority against cap..
largely in part to radar sense (and he is rediculously smart battle-wise)

NEVERTHELESS

there is a point where dd's radar sense cant compensate for a HUGE speed gap, my quetsion is, is midnighter in that range?

Originally posted by Metalmanx
doh

Yes, but does Midnighter know that?

Here we go again! Answer this question.......what raeson can you give me for DD getting punched by Punisher and Kinpin? Why would this happen...answer please.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Here we go again! Answer this question.......what raeson can you give me for DD getting punched by Punisher and Kinpin? Why would this happen...answer please.

The same reason why Flash comics last more than 3 panels.

The same reason Silver Surfer doesn't just turn his opponents into toasters.

STORY.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Here we go again! Answer this question.......what raeson can you give me for DD getting punched by Punisher and Kinpin? Why would this happen...answer please.


DD isint perfect, i understand your question here, at the same time

recently DD's senses have been more elaborately explained
and it seems like their are 2 scnearios where DD is likely to be hit,

when hes unfocused by the given situation, he is more succeptable to be struck

or if hes flat out outmatched

Originally posted by Metalmanx
The same reason why Flash comics last more than 3 panels.

The same reason Silver Surfer doesn't just turn his opponents into toasters.

STORY.

So now your comparing flash to DD. DD is nowhere near the power level as the surfer dont you think its better to use somebody nearer his class.

Does DD have superhuman reflexes? No, what gives him these reflexes? His senses, therefore how can you counter his sense, you move fast enough so that even if he knows what you're doing he cant stop it.

What good would DD's sense do against Quicksilver, would DD be able to stop him. No because eventhough he has sense he wont be fast enough to stop him

No midnighter is not as fast as Quicksilver and I dont even know if hes faster than DD, but im saying this is one way to beat him.

If Kingpin can do it I cant see why MN cant, I dont see it as PIS.


Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
DD isint perfect, i understand your question here, at the same time

recently DD's senses have been more elaborately explained
and it seems like their are 2 scnearios where DD is likely to be hit,

when hes unfocused by the given situation, he is more succeptable to be struck

or if hes flat out outmatched

exactly!

Originally posted by Alfheim

Does DD have superhuman reflexes?

i assume you were asking (i think?)
for the record
DD is SLIGHTLY, superhuman
(the radioactivity he was exposed to gave him slight superhuman reflexes along with his sense and stuff, or becuase of his senses, soemthing like that)

Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
i assume you were asking (i think?)
for the record
DD is SLIGHTLY, superhuman
(the radioactivity he was exposed to gave him slight superhuman reflexes along with his sense and stuff, or becuase of his senses, soemthing like that)

I dont think so bro, his bio says that he does not have superhuman reflexes. When you read the comics he always talks about his sense being able to detect things, so what im saying is he is fast, but combined with his senses this gives him superhuman reflexes.

Originally posted by Alfheim
I dont think so bro, his bio says that he does not have superhuman reflexes. When you read the comics he always talks about his sense being able to detect things, so what im saying is he is fast, but combined with his senses this gives him superhuman reflexes.

Im not saying you didnt see what you saw, but in his comic it has been said that it gave him minor superhuman (very minor) reflexes due to the nature of his senses, but i have quesitoned that before and i may be recalling that issue incorrectly

Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
Im not saying you didnt see what you saw, but in his comic it has been said that it gave him minor superhuman (very minor) reflexes due to the nature of his senses, but i have quesitoned that before and i may be recalling that issue incorrectly

I dunno what to say sometimes you have conflicting showings. Well at any rate this is my point. In order to beat DD you need to be able to move so fast that he can react against it.

IF you can do that then you can beat him. Give a slug radar sense and shot at it and all it knows is its going to die. DD is not a slug but you get my point.

Originally posted by Alfheim
I dunno what to say sometimes you have conflicting showings. Well at any rate this is my point. In order to beat DD you need to be able to move so fast that he can react against it.

IF you can do that then you can beat him. Give a slug radar sense and shot at it and all it knows is its going to die. DD is not a slug but you get my point.

yes i do

i was confused for a sec becuase you put can instead of cant
but yes
i agree

Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
yes i do

i was confused for a sec becuase you put can instead of cant
but yes
i agree

cool.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Soljer, I completely understand how Midnighter's powers work now. IMHO, no you don't fully get it. Because you keep asking this:Originally posted by Metalmanx
Now, back on topic, not knowing DD's superhuman powers, how can he calculate a win against him at all? He doesn't need to know that DD has a radar sense. Any move DD makes, Midnighter can run a million scenarios to find a counter - and as DD's moves can be countered, then he will find a counter.

DD's powers are effectively physical. He can't phase. He can't teleport. He can't use TK.

And they're not to the extent that they're not counterable. He isn't the Flash. He isn't Superman.

And they're inferior to Midnighter in some categories.

Furthermore Daredevil's altered senses would be detectable to MN as altered neural activity anyway.
http://static.flickr.com/56/128736805_8356e3818a_o.jpg

Ergo Midnighter wins.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
IMHO, no you don't fully get it. Because you keep asking this: He doesn't need to know that DD has a radar sense. Any move DD makes, Midnighter can run a million scenarios to find a counter - and as DD's moves can be countered, then he will find a counter.

DD's powers are effectively physical. He can't phase. He can't teleport. He can't use TK.

And they're not to the extent that they're not counterable. He isn't the Flash. He isn't Superman.

And they're inferior to Midnighter in some categories.

Furthermore Daredevil's altered senses would be detectable to MN as altered neural activity anyway.
http://static.flickr.com/56/128736805_8356e3818a_o.jpg

Ergo Midnighter wins.


While i dont completely disagree with your assessment

on the other hand

Daredevil is very good at figureing things out durring a fight, well two things now actually

Shuold midnighter try to counter one of daredevils moves, its entirely possible that daredevil can react accordingly becuase he can feel midnighters muscle contractions, it gets a bit messy here though, becuse in some ways, they both have similar abilities here

another thing, shuold daredevil begin to catch on to midnighter and becomes more reactive, it could pose alot of problems for midnighter as he would have trouble re-adapting to having a similar ability used against him (once again, daredevils ability to counter moves due to extra sensory preception)


its almost as if becuase of DD's esp, midnighter would have to be constantly recalculateing becuase of the combat "flexability" that dd's esp gives him

IMO, its hard to say, but if midnighters physical stats arent far enough above daredevils, i think it goes to DD


but as of right now i just dont know

Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
Shuold midnighter try to counter one of daredevils moves, its entirely possible that daredevil can react accordingly becuase he can feel midnighters muscle contractions, it gets a bit messy here though, becuse in some ways, they both have similar abilities here They're not comparable. Midnighter's brain is like a tactical supercomputer, he can run millions of scenarios and choose the best counter to anything Daredevil does. As opposed to Daredevil reacting to Midnighter's movements and trying to think of a way to counter them.

Choosing the best of millions already at your disposal vs trying to think of one.
Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
another thing, shuold daredevil begin to catch on to midnighter and becomes more reactive, it could pose alot of problems for midnighter as he would have trouble re-adapting to having a similar ability used against him (once again, daredevils ability to counter moves due to extra sensory preception)Not really. Considering the abilities aren't comparable.

What do you mean "become more reactive" anyway, he's already meant to be fighting to the best of his abilities. And they're not enough.

Why is this a five page debate?

Midnighter 10/10

Midnighter's ability makes no sense at all. He can run a million scenarios in his head? Sure. He can choose the best one? Sure... but how the hell does he string his opponent along into fighting according to that scenario? Everything he does his opponent has to react too and in any given situation there are hundreds of solutions (and each of those can vary slightly in thousands of ways) of possible maneuvers he could initiate for every possible counter... And how does he know what Daredevil's fighting style is? What if he uses Aikido? What if he useS Krav Maga? Muay Thai? Boxing? Jujutsu? Taekwondo? Even if a million scenarios was enough to accurately predict they way the fight would go (which it isn't... not even close) why does Midnighter choosing the strategy best suited for him to win mean that Daredevil is going to dance to his tune?

you sort of answered your own question, srank. midnighter and daredevil each have almost infinite courses of action. daredevil has no way to narrow these down. midnighter does. based on daredevil's stance and first move, midnighter can narrow down the likely responses to a handful. daredevil has no such luxury.

aside from the tactical supercomputer, midnighter is physically superior to daredevil in every way except MAYBE agility.

As to Midnighter not being able to run his possibilities correctly because he doesn't realize DD has a radar sense... in those scans posted on page two (I think) of this debate, it clearly shows that Midnighter is capable of sensing other's superpowers. He would be able to tell if Daredevil had extra abilities, and plan accordingly.

Also, you asked how well he would do against Superman? He did take out Apollo, who has shown near (and in some cases exceeding) Superman level strength, speed, and durability.

Originally posted by manorastroman
you sort of answered your own question, srank. midnighter and daredevil each have almost infinite courses of action. daredevil has no way to narrow these down. midnighter does. based on daredevil's stance and first move, midnighter can narrow down the likely responses to a handful. daredevil has no such luxury.

aside from the tactical supercomputer, midnighter is physically superior to daredevil in every way except MAYBE agility.

Even if Midnighter narrows down his possible scenarios to fit with Daredevil's fighting style there is still going to to be an almost infinite number of possible out comes. Unless there is no free will involved it would be impossible for MN and DD to fight exactly the way he predicted it, the fight would never go as planed. Sure running a bunch of scenarios in your head is helpful (even if a million is a very limited number of possible out comes) for predicting how your opponent my react to your moves... but any skilled fighter can make the same predictions based on any number of things in the heat of combat, and DD radar sense makes it that much easier for him.

Aside from strength Midnigher isn't physically superior to Daredevil... and I'm not even sure how much stronger he actually is then Daredevil. Really, how strong do you need to be to bash someones head in with a Baton? One ton range?

Originally posted by tjcoady
Also, you asked how well he would do against Superman? He did take out Apollo, who has shown near (and in some cases exceeding) Superman level strength, speed, and durability.

...


Now that is a flat out lie.

EDIT: The Apollo being anywhere near Superman on any level part, not the Midnighter beating Apollo part.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
...


Now that is a flat out lie.

EDIT: The Apollo being anywhere near Superman on any level part, not the Midnighter beating Apollo part.

It was a bit of stretch, yea, you're right about that. I exaggerrated.
He does have some impressive feats though, and he is an impressively durable, fast and strong character.

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/3050/bugs2pr7.th.jpg

For all those Midnighter freaks fans out there...

How long does it take him to run these scenerios through his mind. Is it like... a few seconds? One second? Ten minutes? A single thought?

He says that he can do a million scenarios in a second... but that maybe a hyperbole.

You are all aware that Midnighter is enhanced beyond all reason, right?

He's got two friggin hearts, for christsakes!

Most of the stuff about him is in Stormwatch. Here's the short end from Wikipedia, since I don't want to type it all out.

The world's deadliest killing machine, Midnighter's neural induction allows him to calculate over a million possible combat scenarios in a second. Allowing him the perfect counter to any attack (he's famous for taunting his opponents with lines like "I already know what you're going to do". He has fibre-lined muscle increasing his strength, durability, and reflexes. Midnighter can move faster than the human- and even superhuman- eye in a quick speed burst, an effect perhaps created by his perfect anticipation of an enemies' moves. He can survive in anaerobic environments for short periods. He also has a secondary heart allowing him to survive wounds that would be otherwise fatal.

He also possesses a super-enhanced immune system, to the point where AIDS was defeated in six weeks and the common cold never stays more than a couple of minutes. After The Doctor overdosed himself with heroin, doctors used a shot of Midnighter's blood to jumpstart his system by deactivating his opiate receptors. Though not on the level of certain Marvel or DC characters, Midnighter does heal much faster than a normal human, and has implants that numb him to most pain.

Midnighter is also quite adept at stealth, and has used both a nightstick and a telescoping staff in close combat. His personal arsenal also commonly incorporates throwing stars. He is a close-quarters killer, having quite effortlessly slaughtered close to 30 superpowered soldiers by himself, without being so much as touched by them.

Midnighter has no need to use the bathroom and can go without food or water.

He had two hearts.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
He had two hearts. Leave Midnighter alone.

He didn't want to kill Grifter. Really. The writers made him.

And they're going to be together again in a new miniseries.

I won't be happy until Grifter gets some payback...

Essentially, Midnighter is supposed to be Slade on steroids.

Speaking of which, Slade had a freaking low showing recently. I'm a bit pissed about that.

... Don't get me started on Slade, he is in the same boat as Midnighter with all the inaccurate crap people say to hype him up.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
... Don't get me started on Slade, he is in the same boat as Midnighter with all the inaccurate crap people say to hype him up.

There's a LOT of stuff people spout about him that's not true.

When you take him on an average, he's Captain America with a killer instinct and better arsenal.

I still like him, but I don't make him out to be someone along the lines of Spider-Man.

Slade is a class two to five merc, with peak to low superhuman speed/agility, a low level healing factor and incredible reaction time. His fighting skills are considerably "second rate" when compared to Batman or even Nightwing, and he is full of bravado and incredible cocky and arrogant. He is more in line with the Punisher then Captain America, not that formidable straight up (relatively speaking) but a monster with prep time. In a straight up fight the likes of Batman, Nightwing, Eddie Friers and Deadshot can and have given Deathstroke a fight (even beating and stalemating him on occasion) and the same is true for Midnighter against high end streets IMO.

Slade and Midnigher are physically and ability wise pretty much carbon copies of each other... and except Slade is a bit better on every level.

Hm. Just a random thought:

What if Daredevil makes Midnighter make the first move? And then continue to make/let MN'er make the first move?

There's only one instance of that actually working - Midnighter is often the offender, his abilities aren't purely defensive. I'm sure srank will post it eventually... he does it a lot. Because Midnighter killed Grifter. Yes I went there.

And that would require Daredevil knowing what Midnighter's abilities are.

Midnighter's sight
http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/8806/sightjx1.th.jpg

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Soljer, I completely understand how Midnighter's powers work now.

My only question is, how does he calculate victories if he DOES NOT know he can win?

Hypothetically-speaking, if DD suddenly had Sentry powers, but didn't look any different or give off any different signs, Midnighter would calculate incorrect strategies and be screwed.

Hm. Better way to put it. If MN'er just plain doesn't know what his opponent is capable of (he has no clue as to their powers/abilities), then how can he calculate a win? According to your logic, he can't unless he knows he can win. There are avenues he could take, but at the same time, he's basically lost all sense of direction. He doesn't know which way leads where. Not knowing his opponent's powers/abilities, it's analogous to dropping Midnighter in the desert with no map and no landmarks to help him, then tell him to find the way out. Of course there are millions, even billions, of different routes to take, but without any sort of hint/knowledge at all, he would have no clue as to which route to take. See what I mean?

Now, back on topic, not knowing DD's superhuman powers, how can he calculate a win against him at all?

You're looking at it far too simply.

Midnighter doesn't calculate a million ways the battle could go, and THEN go into the battle.

He calculates WHILE he battles.

I'm not sure what all would be common knowledge about Daredevil, but let's assume ABSOLUTELY nothing.

Midnighter is meeting Matt for the first time. Midnighter sizes him up, calculates, throws a punch, which is dodged with an ease that would indicate supernatural speed. All the calculations are IMMEDIATELY (nearly instantaneously) redone, taking into account the new information.

He needn't ever know about the radar sense, as it will have little impact on the actual fight - the radar sense is, more or less, just one more explanation for enhanced reflexes. Which can be easily observed and dealt with.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
There's only one instance of that actually working - Midnighter is often the offender, his abilities aren't purely defensive. I'm sure srank will post it eventually... he does it a lot. Because Midnighter killed Grifter. Yes I went there.




...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/sinister_samurai/midnighter024.jpg

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
IMHO, no you don't fully get it. Because you keep asking this: He doesn't need to know that DD has a radar sense. Any move DD makes, Midnighter can run a million scenarios to find a counter - and as DD's moves can be countered, then he will find a counter.

DD's powers are effectively physical. He can't phase. He can't teleport. He can't use TK.

And they're not to the extent that they're not counterable. He isn't the Flash. He isn't Superman.

And they're inferior to Midnighter in some categories.

Furthermore Daredevil's altered senses would be detectable to MN as altered neural activity anyway.
http://static.flickr.com/56/128736805_8356e3818a_o.jpg

Ergo Midnighter wins.

Thank you!!!! We actually agree on something, thats 99% of what I have been trying to say for ages.

He doesnt need to know DD has radar sense and he isnt as fast as The Flash.

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Hm. Just a random thought:

What if Daredevil makes Midnighter make the first move? And then continue to make/let MN'er make the first move?

'i actually asked this earlier and i was wondering the same thing

Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
'i actually asked this earlier and i was wondering the same thing

Then it wouldn't matter.

Midnighter has taken the offensive plenty of times in the past, and has functioned PERFECTLY.

Many Showings > Few Showings > One Showing.

Originally posted by Soljer
Then it wouldn't matter.

Midnighter has taken the offensive plenty of times in the past, and has functioned PERFECTLY.

Many Showings > Few Showings > One Showing.

well, i mean
itd be different if maybe say, batman decided to be recactive to midnighter

but in this case


i guess my ultimate quesiton is what is the extent on average (without exadurateing, and im not saying that you were gona)
what honsetly is the average extent of Midnighters speed
(i saw that one scan earlier but i realize sometimes comics just do things to make things look cool)
becuase the only way i see midnighter for sure takeing a majority is if hes just flat out TOO fast

why is this STILL being argued? midnighter lands one punch and explodes daredevil's brain all over hells kitchen.

Originally posted by manorastroman
why is this STILL being argued?

becuase midnighter knoweldge isint very prevelant
and becuase of that, no one really has an accurate understanding of midnighters abilities (including myself)

Deathstro....I mean Midnighter, takes this.

Originally posted by juggernaut66666
Midnighter vs Tanks
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o97/juggernaut666666/Desert1.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o97/juggernaut666666/Desert2.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o97/juggernaut666666/Desert3.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o97/juggernaut666666/Desert4.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o97/juggernaut666666/Desert5.jpg
http://i118.photobucket.com/albums/o97/juggernaut666666/Desert6.jpg

Oh God. Midnighter is now on my "Don't Like" List.

He's basically Wolverine XP. He can do anything.

Fine. Midnighter wins.