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I never paid much attention to Sandman untill just recently. I've been trying to find a good fight idea for Flint Marco. So, I thought I'd pick one of KMC's favorites to pit him against. Venom. Now, Venom has taken an ungodly ammount of damage and walked away from it. But what would happen if his lungs were filled with sand? Takes place on an unpopulated beach, to give Sandy the edge against an otherwise unbeatable opponent.

Originally posted by Muck101
I never paid much attention to Sandman untill just recently. I've been trying to find a good fight idea for Flint Marco. So, I thought I'd pick one of KMC's favorites to pit him against. Venom. Now, Venom has taken an ungodly ammount of damage and walked away from it. But what would happen if his lungs were filled with sand? Takes place on an unpopulated beach, to give Sandy the edge against an otherwise unbeatable opponent.

Sandman

i dont think filling his lunges with sand would help, Venom is a space being he probably dudnt need oxygen at all. But with the beach and all the sand Willie Baker is unbeatable. as if he takes a beating the sand reforms his body. until that is, all the sand is used up and I think Sandy would have figured something out by then

Sandman isn't going down that easy. He can just keep reforming himslef from Venoms attacks while he beats back just as hard.

Agree'd to all. In all fairness, Spiderman shouldn't be able to beat Sandman. But since he always does, I dont think Sandy gets as much respect as other villains.

This already happened in the comics . Venom killed Marko.

......and he shouldnt have. Also, did that fight take place on a beach?

Venom bit a piece of him off an swallowed it. Sandman startted to lose more and more matter untill he was killed on a beach. Then he was resurrected or something.

Originally posted by Jyppe
Venom bit a piece of him off an swallowed it. Sandman startted to lose more and more matter untill he was killed on a beach. Then he was resurrected or something.

So Venom ate him? (or did he just fall part?)

Originally posted by Jyppe
Venom bit a piece of him off an swallowed it. Sandman startted to lose more and more matter untill he was killed on a beach. Then he was resurrected or something.

Pretty much. They dragged Venom into the Sinister Six (don't ASK me how ) and he went ape-shit , somehow taking out Electro who (for all intents and purposes) should have crispy fried Brock. This is of course before he decided that he should take a bite out of crime (and thus , Sandman).

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
So Venom ate him? (or did he just fall part?)

Nope , just a chunk. He then started falling apart. Ate some concrete trying to re-gain matter. Got pissed , attacked Spidey and then melted before reappearing on the beach.

Originally posted by grey fox
Nope , just a chunk. He then started falling apart. Ate some concrete trying to re-gain matter. Got pissed , attacked Spidey and then melted before reappearing on the beach.

That seems . . . really . . . really stupid.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
That seems . . . really . . . really stupid.
Yup.

that arc had promise, but it turned out kinda crappy. i'd say pis, but i can't say if anyone else has ever . . . removed a piece of sandy.

the thing about that is if he can lose and gain mass from ambient sand why would venom removing a bit of it destabalize him? It is a bull crap thing that shouldnt work. That was PIS!

Originally posted by outarddwarf
the thing about that is if he can lose and gain mass from ambient sand why would venom removing a bit of it destabalize him? It is a bull crap thing that shouldnt work. That was PIS!

It was his personal supply. When he gains mass it's not technically 'His'.

i was going to say i read in the sandmans wikipedia that he was practically killled when venom attacked him

wikipedia is very unreliable.

Originally posted by Muck101
I never paid much attention to Sandman untill just recently. I've been trying to find a good fight idea for Flint Marco. So, I thought I'd pick one of KMC's favorites to pit him against. Venom. Now, Venom has taken an ungodly ammount of damage and walked away from it. But what would happen if his lungs were filled with sand? Takes place on an unpopulated beach, to give Sandy the edge against an otherwise unbeatable opponent.

considering the fact that venom killed sandman?






I'm gonna have to go with venom on this one..

venomous bite ftw

Originally posted by Muck101
wikipedia is very unreliable.

Its good for checking a person's power set but really nothing else.

Originally posted by leonidas
that arc had promise, but it turned out kinda crappy. i'd say pis, but i can't say if anyone else has ever . . . removed a piece of sandy.

He's had small layers removed before in Silver Sable's comics, but nothing the size of the front half of his stomach. Essentially if Venom had bit a normal human, the end result of the bite would be you seeing the person's spine.

Though I think it was a lame way for Sandman to get beat, it happened.

Silver Sable it took her, the wild pack, and Sandman combined to take Venom down and they all had a hard time doing it. In Venom and Sandman's two fights Venom always showed to be more than a match for Sandman.

Venom for the win

In a pure physical beat down Sandman wasn't doing pretty well either. He was basicly owned even before Venom nearly killed him. How strong is Sandy? He was struggling with Venom.

EDIT, Sandy survives being blown appart by a huge bomb or a blower, and then Venom bites a piece off him and he begins to die. sounds like PIS to me :/

Sandman has thing level strength.

Yea and if he can have his mass scattered and blown appart and slowly reform but have a little taken away and destabilize. Its rather silly.

Plus if he is on a beach than he could through his amplification of mass powers to coat the outside of his body in a thick layer of sand so if venom does take a bite out of him it isn't of his sand. Its off the beaches so eventually he puts venom down.

It wouldn't suprise me that Sandman was having problems affecting Venom with punches. Venom is a character whose durability is so much more than his strength it's ridiculous. He took an uppercut from Merged Hulk and got right back up like it was nothing. Same as shots from Juggernaut.

In most occasions Venom would beat Sandman using the enviornment to his advantage.

This could go either way. They are both very durable, as said before Sandy can take a big bomb blown at him but also Venom has been shown to survive such thing too, in Maximum Carnage, for instance.

I'm also going to just point out that being blown apart and survive that and being bitten by something poisonous is two different things and that is probably why Venom was able to take him out. It's the same as Venom has survived being punched by Hulk and Juggernaut but then Wolverine's claws has hurt him a bit before.

But as I said this could go either way.

In this occasion the place is a beach so venom cant really use that to any advantage. I still say sandman takes this the majority.

Originally posted by outarddwarf
In this occasion the place is a beach so venom cant really use that to any advantage. I still say sandman takes this the majority.

Well, beaches do have water.

I dunno. I'd have to think of a way for Venom to really utilize that, but half of it would involve him cloaking himself and trappind Sandman somehow.

Originally posted by blind faith


I'm also going to just point out that being blown apart and survive that and being bitten by something poisonous is two different things and that is probably why Venom was able to take him out. It's the same as Venom has survived being punched by Hulk and Juggernaut but then Wolverine's claws has hurt him a bit before.

But as I said this could go either way.

the only problem is that Venom's bite isn't poisonous.

Originally posted by Jyppe
the only problem is that Venom's bite isn't poisonous.

How can you be so sure?
Remember that green stuff in his mouth? And his bite did effected Sandman. Besides his name is VENOM...

Originally posted by Sam Z
How can you be so sure?
Remember that green stuff in his mouth? And his bite did effected Sandman. Besides his name is VENOM...

Whrn has his bite poisoned anyone? His bios never say anything about poisons either. And it's clearly stated in the issue that why Sandy is dying, and it ain't any poison.

Got proof of the poison? Anything even hinting at it?

I've seen him purge poison from his body but thats the extent of his poison use.

Originally posted by outarddwarf
Sandman has thing level strength.

Yea and if he can have his mass scattered and blown appart and slowly reform but have a little taken away and destabilize. Its rather silly.

Plus if he is on a beach than he could through his amplification of mass powers to coat the outside of his body in a thick layer of sand so if venom does take a bite out of him it isn't of his sand. Its off the beaches so eventually he puts venom down.

I don't think its that out there to rationalize. If he gets blown apart basically all thats happened it that he's been dispersed with no real damage per say to himself. He can still pull himself together.

Getting bit how he did removed core pieces from him which due to them being in Venom he couldn't simply "get back".

Well like I said since he has seen the tactic before and can increase his mass with sand than he could coat the outside in "Beach" sand not "sandman" sand so that if it did get bitten off then it wouldn't destabalize him.

Also he has been seen in the past as able to open his mass before spiderman could get a punch off so if he can "Dodge" (if thats what you would call that cartoony opening a hole so you don't get hit thing) spiderman reflexes than he should be able to dodge venom punches bites ect.

He can harden himself to a super high durability, he doesn't have to be sandy so he could be bitten by venom. Venom wouldnt bite through, say the Thing, and sandmans durability is comperable to his. Thus once again thwarting the bite destabilization theory.

Venom can take hits from people with high level strength. He has very high endurance but eventually flint wears him down.
I give a fight on the beach to him like 9/10

Originally posted by Jyppe
Whrn has his bite poisoned anyone? His bios never say anything about poisons either. And it's clearly stated in the issue that why Sandy is dying, and it ain't any poison.

Got proof of the poison? Anything even hinting at it?

Venom never bit anyone accept sandman. And when he did Sandman died. Sounds like a proof to me. Because otherwise Sandy would've simply reformed. And Venom's bios never say that he can breathe under water and they also say he's weaker than current Spider-man. So it doesn't really prove anything. As for "hinting" - green drool.

Originally posted by Jyppe
the only problem is that Venom's bite isn't poisonous. Sure it is, or have you not red The Official Handbook Of Marvel Universe: Spider-Man 2004?

Here, let's take a quick look at Sandman's bio:





"poisoned"

That is the keyword here. POISONED, meaning that Venom's bite indeed poisoned Sandman and almost killed him, completely disproves the assumption that Venom doesn't have poisonous bite.

Originally posted by Sam Z
Venom never bit anyone accept sandman. And when he did Sandman died. Sounds like a proof to me. Because otherwise Sandy would've simply reformed. And Venom's bios never say that he can breathe under water and they also say he's weaker than current Spider-man. So it doesn't really prove anything. As for "hinting" - green drool.


But they explain it in the issue, they never mention anything about poison. It's just stupid writing. Besides, I actually think Venom has bitten Spider-man before. Green saliva indicates poison Riiight.

Eddie Venom was pretty weak before the merge with the symbiote clone, he was nearly dead because of the cancer. So it's plausible to say that he wasn't very strong at the time. He did get his ass owned by Spider-man in the clone arc. Yes, in a pure slug fest.



Originally posted by blind faith
Sure it is, or have you not red The Official Handbook Of Marvel Universe: Spider-Man 2004?

Here, let's take a quick look at Sandman's bio:





"poisoned"

That is the keyword here. POISONED, meaning that Venom's bite indeed poisoned Sandman and almost killed him, completely disproves the assumption that Venom doesn't have poisonous bite.

Got scans? The issue says differently. We go by comic books here if the handbooks contract comics. And you need to remember, handbooks are written by complitely different people than writers.

Is there anything in the issue that would indicate any kind of poisoning?

Originally posted by Jyppe
But they explain it in the issue, they never mention anything about poison. It's just stupid writing. Besides, I actually think Venom has bitten Spider-man before. Green saliva indicates poison Riiight.

Eddie Venom was pretty weak before the merge with the symbiote clone, he was nearly dead because of the cancer. So it's plausible to say that he wasn't very strong at the time. He did get his ass owned by Spider-man in the clone arc. Yes, in a pure slug fest.


I don't remember them explaining anything... Sandman just fell apart. I don't see any other explanation. And I don't think he has bitten Peter, only licked him.

In that clone arc Eddie almost killed Ben Grimm.
And when did Venom got owned by Spider-man?

Originally posted by Jyppe
Got scans?Nope sorry, If I had, things would be easier. Originally posted by Jyppe
The issue says differently.Really? What does it say then? Originally posted by Jyppe
We go by comic books here if the handbooks contract comics.I'm not sure what the comic stated since I don't have it here but why would a handbook say something that did not happen? I think most people there knows well what happened and did not happen. Not that it changes the fact that Sandman got owned by that bite so... Originally posted by Jyppe
And you need to remember, handbooks are written by complitely different people than writers.Yes, by people who knows about the comics well and even states all the issues the character has been in and explains the characters story correct when compared with other sources too

Originally posted by Jyppe
Is there anything in the issue that would indicate any kind of poisoning? Correct me if I'm wrong but I think Sandman stated himself a while after being bitten that after he got bit he started to feel bad and throwed up and such. Sounds like he got poisoned. Or is it just me?

Originally posted by blind faith
Nope sorry, If I had, things would be easier. Really? What does it say then? I'm not sure what the comic stated since I don't have it here but why would a handbook say something that did not happen? I think most people there knows well what happened and did not happen. Not that it changes the fact that Sandman got owned by that bite so... Yes, by people who knows about the comics well and even states all the issues the character has been in and explains the characters story correct when compared with other sources too.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think Sandman stated himself a while after being bitten that after he got bit he started to feel bad and throwed up and such. Sounds like he got poisoned. Or is it just me?

whoops I was gonna edit a little in my post and look what happened...

Yes, Sandy does explain why he's startting to die. Twice. Just after Veno m bites him, he says something along the lines: "What did you do to me? I can't lose my sandmass. It all falls appart if.." And in the beginning of the next issue Sandy tries to grab a bottle of alcohol from a bum, but his hand goes through it and he says "I'm falling appart! Venom.. Bit a bite out of me.. Took away a part of my mass.. I can't hold myself together without all of my sand.

And, besides Venom's drool is white in the issue




Yeah, but not by doing anything very impressive. Grimm didn't really fight back either.
Scans are in the Spider-man respect thread. Spider-man whooped Venom pretty easily.



Sandy states 2 that he's falling appart because he lost a piece of his mass. My book is translated in finnish so it might not be 100% literal translation, but it sure as hell doesn't mention anything about poison.



Because the handbook writers are often sloppy and don't look into the comics that much. Sandman has taken a lot worse things than a mere chunk of him being bitten off. It was sh*tty writing. Venom did handle Sandy pretty well, but under KMC rules he ain't winning as he has nothing to defeat Sandy with.



Maybe the handbook writer wrote what he thought was happening..?



Nope, he just kinda falls appart as soon as Venom bites him and fleds. Then in the next issue he's already falling appart and going worse by the second.

Btw, it is the issue where Spider-man defeats Venom with a lighter. So the book is kinda filled with bad writing.

Sam. Spider-man vs Venom.

http://img362.imageshack.us/my.php?image=venom01615ld8.jpg
http://img362.imageshack.us/my.php?image=venom01616lx2.jpg
http://img245.imageshack.us/my.php?image=venom01617mn6.jpg
http://img362.imageshack.us/my.php?image=venom01618od4.jpg

Originally posted by Jyppe
Yes, Sandy does explain why he's startting to die. Twice. Just after Veno m bites him, he says something along the lines: "What did you do to me? I can't lose my sandmass. It all falls appart if.." And in the beginning of the next issue Sandy tries to grab a bottle of alcohol from a bum, but his hand goes through it and he says "I'm falling appart! Venom.. Bit a bite out of me.. Took away a part of my mass.. I can't hold myself together without all of my sand.

And, besides Venom's drool is white in the issue

It depends on the artist I think. I personally prefere non-drooling Venom (like in Max Carnage). But origihally Venom was drawn with green droll.
Sandy might not understood what happened to him at all. I just don't see what else could've happened cause losing his mass was never a problem to him.



Originally posted by Jyppe

Yeah, but not by doing anything very impressive. Grimm didn't really fight back either.

True, he only tried to hold Venom.

Originally posted by Jyppe
Sam. Spider-man vs Venom.

http://img362.imageshack.us/my.php?image=venom01615ld8.jpg
http://img362.imageshack.us/my.php?image=venom01616lx2.jpg
http://img245.imageshack.us/my.php?image=venom01617mn6.jpg
http://img362.imageshack.us/my.php?image=venom01618od4.jpg

That fight would've looked much more impressive if not for the next page. Venom wasn't even trying to fight back, he got info he wanted, and that was it.

In the next issue he KOed Spider with 1 punch, so I really don't think he was that weak.

Venom loses to Marvel Sandman.

But if this is the Vertigo (DC) Sandman Venom flattens him shifty

Originally posted by Jyppe
Sandy states 2 that he's falling appart because he lost a piece of his mass. My book is translated in finnish so it might not be 100% literal translation, but it sure as hell doesn't mention anything about poison.Because it's far too awkward that Venom's bite poisoned him. Seeing as Sandman has lost part of his mass before and just regained it, Venom wouldn't be able to take him out by just biting him, so it MUST have been poisonous or else Venom wouldn't have taken him down (and the bite is poisonous btw, proven by an official source, meaning it counts for proof here.) And also I have checked with other sources too that mention about that fight and it says that Sandman got poisoned too.


Originally posted by Jyppe
Because the handbook writers are often sloppy and don't look into the comics that much. Sandman has taken a lot worse things than a mere chunk of him being bitten off. It was sh*tty writing. Venom did handle Sandy pretty well, but under KMC rules he ain't winning as he has nothing to defeat Sandy with.Funny, because I checked not only Sandman's bio or Venom's but the other characters bios as well and I couldn't find anything wrong in any of them, they were accurate with the all the events, abilites and comic book appearances. Under KMC rules Venom can and will win, because the fact that Venom's bite is poisonous and has taken down Sandman has been proven and supported.

Originally posted by Jyppe
Maybe the handbook writer wrote what he thought was happening..?Incorrect and unproven, that is just an assumption.(sorry)

Originally posted by Jyppe
Btw, it is the issue where Spider-man defeats Venom with a lighter. So the book is kinda filled with bad writing. You forgot to mention that Spider-man however didn't beat him with a lighter, rather a bundle of paper he set aflame like a torch. Because I'm sure you mean "Peter Parker: Spider-Man (Vol. 2) - #16" right? Peter taking him out that way is rather more a tool for the writer, because they need to find a way for Spidey to survive an encounter with Venom. So what do they do? That's right, they give him something fire-based seeing as it is one of Venom's main weaknesses. Like almost, always.

It's even more akward that Venom's poison would affect him. The guy doesn't have a circulatory system. He's composed entirely of sand. It's just bad writing. Baker actually states if he loses any of his mass he starts to die. That's just plain dumb.

What are these other "official" sources?



Namor being able to fly only at 50 Mp/h? Wolverine not being able to heal missing organs and such? There are lot's of BS things in the handbooks. Ask anyone on the KMC forums, that we'll go by comic books as handbooks rarely are accurate.



Pfft, the comic says otherwise. Comic comes first, then all the other sources.



Or maybe the handbook writer was trying to make the whole incident seem more plausible, as it's definately bad writing from the looks of it.



Uh, Venom was already fleeing when Spider-man had only the lighter. Besides, that's not what I'm trying to say. The point is that the comic book writer did a sloppy job on portraying the 2 villains. Since when has Venom been taken out with a mere lighter? He made a building collapse while being surrounded by fire. His tolerance to fire isn't that low, ask Sam. Same thing with Sandman.

You haven't actually read the comic? Maybe you should.

It doesn't matter if venom wants to bite sandman or not! He has thing level strength and possibly higher durability. If venom tries to bite him he is too durable for him to succed. In the comic he was in sand form and Sandman has shown the ability to get more solid or less. So Venoms bite, wether poisonous or not is ineffective.

vacuum cleaner >>> Sandman...

A match >>>>>>>> Venom

Originally posted by Sam Z
In the next issue he KOed Spider with 1 punch, so I really don't think he was that weak.

thumbsup

EXACTLY.

Originally posted by Jyppe
A match >>>>>>>> Venom

a majority of the time?

no


in a book entitled "cliche'"? yes

now as for this venom versus sandman business...

we've seen the two encounter eachother more than once ALL to venom's advantage..

silver sable 18: venom goes after sandman, sandman requires the help of silver sable, the wild pack and their sonic weapons AND is STILL losing...


peter parker 16: not only does venom kill sandman.. lol.... but sandman was literally begging spiderman for a team up before venom showed.

if that doesn't validate it for anyone, I don't know what will.

What was happening in the issue with Silver Sable? How was Sandy losing?

The second fight was pretty bad writing, Sandy dying because of losing some of his mass? Yeaaah, right. The guy has been spread around NY more than once. And then Venom owns him by biting a chunk out of him?

Though Venom can handle Sandy pretty well, Sandy's durability isn't that great when he's in the sand form (unless he hardens it) and Sandy's around Thing in physical force so I think Venom could at least dance with him for a while, but how could Venom win the end?

by biting him?

I don't see where it says anything about Venom poisoning him. Although I have heard that his saliva is poisonous.

http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/2393/venomtakingabiteoutofsaub2.jpg

on second thought, that IS kinda a retardo reason for sandman to get the crunch like that.

I've always wondered why Spider-man is hugging Venom in the second screen.

trying to kill venom with kindness maybe?

I think he was trying to stop or tackle him. But in the next few screens, Spidey whips out a lighter.

Originally posted by Ptr_Grifin
I think he was trying to stop or tackle him. But in the next few screens, Spidey whips out a lighter.

Actually it's Urich who throws it at him, but close enough

Btw, thanks for the scan.