God Spoke the Universe into Existance..

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FistOfThe North
I was meditating on this and i found it just incredible to know that God spoke the universe into existence. But I went even deeper. I sort of went into how he actually may've done it. Like what tongue was he speaking in. Or what gestures did he make. He probably used a tongue that was just unimaginably astounding. Like this big hum of enormously loud sounds, heard simultaneously through every inch of space in space. Ridiculously louds galactic sounds that were beyond words and letters and math and space and time. Sounds that are just impossibly complicated and sophisticated to an incalculable degree, to understand with the human ear. And doing this while creating, galaxies, the universe. Just by words.

Wow.

Mindship
UniVerse
OneWord

Nellinator
Words are very powerful. The Bible attests to it frequently and it proves so in life.

Strangelove
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
I was meditating on this and i found it just incredible to know that God spoke the universe into existence. But I went even deeper. I sort of went into how he actually may've done it. Like what tongue was he speaking in. Or what gestures did he make. He probably used a tongue that was just unimaginably astounding. Like this big hum of enormously loud sounds, heard simultaneously through every inch of space in space. Ridiculously louds galactic sounds that were beyond words and letters and math and space and time. Sounds that are just impossibly complicated and sophisticated to an incalculable degree, to understand with the human ear. And doing this while creating, galaxies, the universe. Just by words.

Wow. If you believe in that sort of thing, anyway erm

Symmetric Chaos
I perfer to think he did it by singing (too much Tolkien perhaps)

Alliance
Wait, didn't your God form creation out of clay? Hmm...yet a ntoher ignored biblical contradiction.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Alliance
Wait, didn't your God form creation out of clay? Hmm...yet a ntoher ignored biblical contradiction.

No he formed people from clay (just like Odin and most NativeAmerican creaters)

Alliance
I seem to remember saying that stick out tongue

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Alliance
I seem to remember saying that stick out tongue

The universe was spoken (or sung if you like Tolkien) in to existance then he shaped humans from the clay of the world so there's no contradiction.

Alliance
Aren't humans part of that creation?

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Alliance
Aren't humans part of that creation?

Nope actually they seem to have been an after thought literally everything else in existance was created first.

Alliance
Not according to Genesis 2

FistOfThe North
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I perfer to think he did it by singing (too much Tolkien perhaps)

If that's what you prefer. In fact you can look at it that way too. It was probably a galactic symphony that would've been way too grand too understand and trillions upon trillions of light years ahead of, or way beyond, the limits of human imagination not even tapped into yet.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Alliance
Not according to Genesis 2

RYL?

I'm just thinking about what I remeber from the first few paragraphs.

He does the planet, the seas, the animals and then people right?

Originally posted by FistOfThe North
If that's what you prefer. In fact you can look at it that way too. It was probably a galactic symphony that would've been way too grand too understand and trillions upon trillions of light years ahead of, or way beyond, the limits of human imagination not even tapped into yet.

I wasn't partly joking about the Tolkien thing. Still the whole coir biulding the universe was awsome.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
I was meditating on this and i found it just incredible to know that God spoke the universe into existence. But I went even deeper. I sort of went into how he actually may've done it. Like what tongue was he speaking in. Or what gestures did he make. He probably used a tongue that was just unimaginably astounding. Like this big hum of enormously loud sounds, heard simultaneously through every inch of space in space. Ridiculously louds galactic sounds that were beyond words and letters and math and space and time. Sounds that are just impossibly complicated and sophisticated to an incalculable degree, to understand with the human ear. And doing this while creating, galaxies, the universe. Just by words.

Wow.

There would have to already be a universe in order to speak words into it. I believe there is no beginning.

Alliance
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
RYL?

I'm just thinking about what I remeber from the first few paragraphs.

He does the planet, the seas, the animals and then people right?

Genesis 1 and 2 seem to have conflicting views on this issue.

FistOfThe North
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
There would have to already be a universe in order to speak words into it. I believe there is no beginning.

I think it's more sensible to believe that before the universe there was nothingness. Meaning nothing there. Not meaning an empty space. There was just nothing there, no space, no time, it was all taken up by God, perhaps. But note that there's a difference in between nothingness and emptiness. There wasn't anything empty to fill in. There was just ...nothing.

Or God was in heaven relaxing and came up with the idea to make this something meaning the elements, space, time, math, us, and create unexplainable things in it and with it.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
I think it's more sensible to believe that before the universe there was nothingness. Meaning nothing there. Not meaning an empty space. There was just nothing there, no space, no time, it was all taken up by God, perhaps. But note that there's a difference in between nothingness and emptiness. There wasn't anything empty to fill in. There was just ...nothing.

Or God was in heaven relaxing and came up with the idea to make this something meaning the elements, space, time, math, us, and create unexplainable things in it and with it.

Nothingness dose not exist, and there is nothing outside of the universe. Nothingness is full, and all within nothingness is the same; nothingness. You cannot have sound, and with no sound, there is no word.

Nellinator
Originally posted by Alliance
Genesis 1 and 2 seem to have conflicting views on this issue. No they do not. In fact the beginning of Genesis 2 clarifies Genesis 1 as being the order when it says in verse 1 and 2:
"Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the sixth day (ie. the day man was created) God ended His work which He had made; and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made."

Also notice that according to Genesis 2:5-6 the seas (including the sea creatures) precede man and that plants also precede man. Ultimately Genesis 2 never indicates that it is chronolgical sequence whereas Genesis 1 does.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I wasn't partly joking about the Tolkien thing.

Yikes major typo! I WAS partly joking about the Tolkien thing.

Admiral Akbar
Originally posted by Nellinator
No they do not. In fact the beginning of Genesis 2 clarifies Genesis 1 as being the order when it says in verse 1 and 2:
"Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the sixth day (ie. the day man was created) God ended His work which He had made; and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made."

I find it hard to believe that he could create it "all" in 7 days.

Nellinator
Depends on what the word translated at days really means. The fact is that it can mean a very long period of time suggesting that it could be anywhere from 7 billion years to 7 days.

lil bitchiness
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
I think it's more sensible to believe that before the universe there was nothingness. Meaning nothing there. Not meaning an empty space. There was just nothing there, no space, no time, it was all taken up by God, perhaps. But note that there's a difference in between nothingness and emptiness. There wasn't anything empty to fill in. There was just ...nothing.

Or God was in heaven relaxing and came up with the idea to make this something meaning the elements, space, time, math, us, and create unexplainable things in it and with it.

The problem is that believeing that there was ''nothingness'' before, goes agains the laws of physics - you cannot create something out of nothing.

Alliance
Erm...sometimes you can...

...but ignoring that...

If there was nothing before, where was God?

Lord Urizen
ALthought I do not beleive in Yahweh, Jehovah, or Allah, I do think that the Legend would be fascinating....


to imagine an Omnipotent being who sung the universe into existance, like a poem creating stars, a word creating the worlds, a rhythm which magically sewed reality together, that would be beautiful !

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Nellinator
Depends on what the word translated at days really means. The fact is that it can mean a very long period of time suggesting that it could be anywhere from 7 billion years to 7 days.



I think you should argue that the essense of your Faith is more important than the details.


The Bible was written by MAN, but that doesn't degrade the value of the wisdom in the Bible, especially if you beleive that the Bible was inspired by God.

Regret
Given scientific evidence for various aspects of planets and their forming as well as evidence supporting evolution and various processes involved in the world and species evolving to the way we know them, I doubt the young earth theory very strongly. That being said, if one had spoken to a scientist a few hundred years ago, most scientists would have stated it was impossible to go from one side of the world to the other at the speed we do today, they would have stated it impossible to begin a human life outside a female and then place it in a female and have a viable birth. This leads to the idea that regardless of our "facts", we are ignorant of many things and as such are not capable of stating absolutes only extremely solid probabilities. So, while I don't believe it, perhaps some vocalization could bring about organization of matter, but given what we know at present such is impossible.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Regret
Given scientific evidence for various aspects of planets and their forming as well as evidence supporting evolution and various processes involved in the world and species evolving to the way we know them, I doubt the young earth theory very strongly. That being said, if one had spoken to a scientist a few hundred years ago, most scientists would have stated it was impossible to go from one side of the world to the other at the speed we do today, they would have stated it impossible to begin a human life outside a female and then place it in a female and have a viable birth. This leads to the idea that regardless of our "facts", we are ignorant of many things and as such are not capable of stating absolutes only extremely solid probabilities. So, while I don't believe it, perhaps some vocalization could bring about organization of matter, but given what we know at present such is impossible.



Oh I agree with you.....we think we know all there is to know, the Human Race is still drowned in its own ignorance and hubris.

Regret
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Oh I agree with you.....we think we know all there is to know, the Human Race is still drowned in its own ignorance and hubris. You know what I find interesting? God sees his creations and that they are "good". They weren't "great" or "wonderful", not "perfect", just "good". I guess he sees it all and says it's "very good", but still...

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Regret
You know what I find interesting? God sees his creations and that they are "good". They weren't "great" or "wonderful", not "perfect", just "good". I guess he sees it all and says it's "very good", but still...



What if God was limitted in power and knowledge, and the human race, world, and rest of the universe was just his experiment ? That would mean he would learn and grow like we would....

And if God could speak the universe into existance, then that means he or she could also speak it into oblivion

Regret
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
What if God was limitted in power and knowledge, and the human race, world, and rest of the universe was just his experiment ? That would mean he would learn and grow like we would....

And if God could speak the universe into existance, then that means he or she could also speak it into oblivion I just figure that sometimes the flaws make the picture that much better.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by Regret
I just figure that sometimes the flaws make the picture that much better.


If God was growing and learning with us, it would certainly justify and explain the reasoning behind the flaws of this world and universe...

FistOfThe North
Originally posted by Mindship
UniVerse
OneWord

Actually the word "verse" means 1 line of poetry, like a stanza of a poem. Or a whole poem itself. It could also be a group of poems, which is what i imagine God used, practically. A 6 day long group of galactic poems.

Regret
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
I was meditating on this and i found it just incredible to know that God spoke the universe into existence. But I went even deeper. I sort of went into how he actually may've done it. Like what tongue was he speaking in. Or what gestures did he make. He probably used a tongue that was just unimaginably astounding. Like this big hum of enormously loud sounds, heard simultaneously through every inch of space in space. Ridiculously louds galactic sounds that were beyond words and letters and math and space and time. Sounds that are just impossibly complicated and sophisticated to an incalculable degree, to understand with the human ear. And doing this while creating, galaxies, the universe. Just by words.

Wow. I like this picture of the creation:



God stands in a laboratory, his laboratory coat is pristine as he raises a vial of something over a bubbling, gurgling, concoction. Glass tubes beakers are around the room.

He states, "Let there be bacteria."

His hand twists, the contents of the vial pour into the concoction, some process occurs, and bacteria begins to grow.

He looks over his creation, observes that it is how it was intended, and states, "It is good."

He then moves to the next portion of creation after cleaning and placing the creation where it was supposed to be.

FistOfThe North
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
The problem is that believeing that there was ''nothingness'' before, goes agains the laws of physics - you cannot create something out of nothing.

God is beyond the law of physics. He made it. He does works in mysterious ways for anything is possible with God. Even the impossible.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
God is beyond the law of physics. He made it. He does works in mysterious ways for anything is possible with God. Even the impossible.


Even rationality ? erm

Symmetric Chaos
Depends on the definition of omnipotence being used.

debbiejo
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
If God was growing and learning with us, it would certainly justify and explain the reasoning behind the flaws of this world and universe... Yes, it would.

Shakyamunison
And god said, Abra Kadabra.

Templares
God said: "Cowabunga"

FistOfThe North
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Even rationality ? erm

Even rationality.

God can defy logic.

You must understand that absolutely everything was his doing. His creation. From a subatomic particle to all of space and time, past present and future and every single thing in it. Including things like cognition and the way of things.

There never was, is or will be anything above or beyond God, ever. He is as unlimitless as absolutely anything can get.

So yes. Even rationality.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
You must understand that absolutely everything was his doing.


so SIN is God's doing as well....that renders Free Will non-existant.

FistOfThe North
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
so SIN is God's doing as well....that renders Free Will non-existant.

Nope. Sin is a humans' doing. Free will is the cause. Free will is what God gave us so as to make our own decision based on our own hearts an minds. And some of those decisions, the ones Satan plays a role in, leads to sin.

Regret
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
Nope. Sin is a humans' doing. Free will is the cause. Free will is what God gave us so as to make our own decision based on our own hearts an minds. And some of those decisions, the ones Satan plays a role in, leads to sin. Originally posted by FistOfThe North
You must understand that absolutely everything was his doing. His creation. From a subatomic particle to all of space and time, past present and future and every single thing in it. Including things like cognition and the way of things.

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
Nope. Sin is a humans' doing. Free will is the cause. Free will is what God gave us so as to make our own decision based on our own hearts an minds. And some of those decisions, the ones Satan plays a role in, leads to sin.




Originally posted by FistOfThe North
You must understand that absolutely everything was his doing.


erm

FistOfThe North
Free will was a creation of his. He doesn't use it for us, though. He's presented it to us. For our own use only. But He did create the idea of free will, did i deny this? The ability to exercise it is within our power. I'm sure our own free will can be used by him, as well, (who wouldn't want that) I guess that's what the term "God's will" can mean out of many meanings, but our will, the one that God created and gave us, for us to keep and utilize wisely, is our own to do with what we wish.

Regret
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
Free will was a creation of his. He doesn't use it for us, though. He's presented it to us. For our own use only. But He did create the idea of free will, did i deny this? The ability to exercise it is within our power. I'm sure our own free will can be used by him, as well, (who wouldn't want that) I guess that's what the term "God's will" can mean out of many meanings, but our will, the one that God created and gave us, for us to keep and utilize wisely, is our own to do with what we wish. So, according to you, there is some aspect of us somewhere or at the least some aspect of the environment that does not owe its existence to God, and this thing is responsible for sin? If God created ex nihilo, God created everything, thus our manner of use of our "free will" is determined only by factors God created. If this is so, all variables impacting our use of free will were created by God and thus if they produce sin, it is God's doing. Now, if God did not create ex nihilo, I can accept flaws in the creation, and would agree that you are correct our "free will" is our own, and true.

debbiejo
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
Nope. Sin is a humans' doing. Free will is the cause. Free will is what God gave us so as to make our own decision based on our own hearts an minds. And some of those decisions, the ones Satan plays a role in, leads to sin. Satan only means a tempter. It is our own human weaknesses that is really spoken of. It is a play on our own inner being, not some outer spirit/person that does some tempting. It is our duel nature. It is only us.

Nellinator
No, nothing in the Bible teaches that.

debbiejo
I never said it did.

Nellinator
Then why should anyone believe what you said? You are commenting on the Bible without using the Bible which doesn't work well.

debbiejo
I use the bible to talk to bible believing people, but as always it doesn't always work because there are so many discrepancies to it....

FistOfThe North
Originally posted by Regret
So, according to you, there is some aspect of us somewhere or at the least some aspect of the environment that does not owe its existence to God, and this thing is responsible for sin? If God created ex nihilo, God created everything, thus our manner of use of our "free will" is determined only by factors God created. If this is so, all variables impacting our use of free will were created by God and thus if they produce sin, it is God's doing. Now, if God did not create ex nihilo, I can accept flaws in the creation, and would agree that you are correct our "free will" is our own, and true.

No. I believe everything owes it's existence to God. Even our own free will. Sin is a choice that comes from of free will that is done via Satans' influence, a creature which God created. And if you create the whole of something, everything that comes out of said whole is of your doing, as well.

There are no flaws in God's creations. However there are flaws created by God's creations.

FistOfThe North
Originally posted by debbiejo
Satan only means a tempter. It is our own human weaknesses that is really spoken of. It is a play on our own inner being, not some outer spirit/person that does some tempting. It is our duel nature. It is only us.

No it's not only us. Satan's influence does play a big part in human sin. Satan is the epitome of evil. And to commit sin is to do something evil. Where do you think the influence lies. And don't get it confused with motive. The evil in a human's heart and mind has to have Satanesque ingredients in it in order for it to be evil. Then, along with motive, you have you act of sin, which was caused by both human a Satan's influence. Otherwise you get the opposite of evil or feelings of indifference.

And isn't a tempter a sort of agitator? An instigator? A motivating influence? (a negative one) Couple that with human weakness and I say you've got a hell of a recipe for sin. So it isn't only us, as you say.

Regret
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
And if you create the whole of something, everything that comes out of said whole is of your doing, as well.

There are no flaws in God's creations. However there are flaws created by God's creations. These two lines conflict. God created everything and everything that comes out of it are his doing, but things that come out of everything are everything's fault, not God's.

FistOfThe North
Originally posted by Regret
These two lines conflict. God created everything and everything that comes out of it are his doing, but things that come out of everything are everything's fault, not God's.

I don't see the conflict.

God is the creator of everything but the sins that come out of humans are humans' fault. Not Gods'.

King Kandy
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
I don't see the conflict.

God is the creator of everything but the sins that come out of humans are humans' fault. Not Gods'.
If Gods creation is Flawless (Like You Said), then humans (Which are his creation) would have to be flawless two.

And if humans are flawless, then they can never make anything flawed since that would represent an error in their knowledge/design/thought processes, which means that they were flawed.

Something flawless cannot create something flawed unless it does so intentionally.

FistOfThe North
Originally posted by King Kandy
If Gods creation is Flawless (Like You Said), then humans (Which are his creation) would have to be flawless two.

And if humans are flawless, then they can never make anything flawed since that would represent an error in their knowledge/design/thought processes, which means that they were flawed.

Something flawless cannot create something flawed unless it does so intentionally.

Humans were initially flawless. The first humans and our ancestors Adam and Eve were perfect. It just happened that they were powerfully influenced by Satan when he exploited their innocence which is probably the most vulnerable characteristic humans have, that has to be as sensitive as it is in order for it to work.

Regret
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
Humans were initially flawless. The first humans and our ancestors Adam and Eve were perfect. It just happened that they were powerfully influenced by Satan when he exploited their innocence which is probably the most vulnerable characteristic humans have, that has to be as sensitive as it is in order for it to work. That still holds a flaw in Satan, another of God's creations. You are stating that Adam and Eve were perfect and humankind is flawed due to their sin by way of Satan's influence. Satan is also a creation of God, correct? If so, where did the influence come that corrupted the angel? God is responsible for everything in an ex nihilo creation, he is still responsible for sin even with Satan's influence.

AOR
Originally posted by Regret
That still holds a flaw in Satan, another of God's creations. You are stating that Adam and Eve were perfect and humankind is flawed due to their sin by way of Satan's influence. Satan is also a creation of God, correct? If so, where did the influence come that corrupted the angel? God is responsible for everything in an ex nihilo creation, he is still responsible for sin even with Satan's influence.

You must understand. The story of creation (and the beginning) does not necesarily have to follow WORD for WORD. The story of creation is filled with metaphors and similies that are meant to convey a theme or idea, not necesarily a historical account of the event. I am more inclined to accept Debbiejo's interpretation. God did give us free will. Freedom to choose him or not. There is no flaw in that.

FistOfThe North
Originally posted by Regret
That still holds a flaw in Satan, another of God's creations. You are stating that Adam and Eve were perfect and humankind is flawed due to their sin by way of Satan's influence. Satan is also a creation of God, correct? If so, where did the influence come that corrupted the angel? God is responsible for everything in an ex nihilo creation, he is still responsible for sin even with Satan's influence.

The influence of evil that came from Satan came from his decision to use his free will unwisely.

Human's weren't the only ones who were given free will as I'm assuming God presented it to his angels, as well.

Satan was that one angel who unwisely used his God given free will in the form of deciding to defy God before paying a hefty price for his insubordination. Satan's misuse of free will corrupted him, the angel, because of him and him only. It's when evil was born.

So even though God created Satan, He's in no way responsible for Satan's sin. God doesn't make choices for us even though He can, but the results of our decisions, whether good or bad, happen by the practice of our God given free will, in which we are in charge of, not God.

Regret
Originally posted by AOR
You must understand. The story of creation (and the beginning) does not necesarily have to follow WORD for WORD. The story of creation is filled with metaphors and similies that are meant to convey a theme or idea, not necesarily a historical account of the event. I am more inclined to accept Debbiejo's interpretation. God did give us free will. Freedom to choose him or not. There is no flaw in that. Ahh, but here I am addressing Fist of the North's beliefs, not some other interpretation or belief.

But to address your statement, how do you know? The Bible does not give statement as to what is and is not metaphor or simile. It is solely personal belief based in either your personal study or your researching of texts others have written on the subject. It may be that the creation account is literal, it may be that it is metaphorical, I do not deny that the account presented in Genesis is not complete enough so as to affirmatively state the nature and method of creation to any absolute other than that God played a role.

From your other post I assume you are Catholic, if this is incorrect you may correct me.


So, we see the Catholic Church has God creating everything ex nihilo, including the Angels, one of whom was Satan. We learn that, according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, God created evil intentionally. And thus sin is due to God, he created a world where he knew sin would occur.

Regret
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
The influence of evil that came from Satan came from his decision to use his free will unwisely.

Human's weren't the only ones who were given free will as I'm assuming God presented it to his angels, as well.

Satan was that one angel who unwisely used his God given free will in the form of deciding to defy God before paying a hefty price for his insubordination. Satan's misuse of free will corrupted him, the angel, because of him and him only. It's when evil was born.

So even though God created Satan, He's in no way responsible for Satan's sin. God doesn't make choices for us even though He can, but the results of our decisions, whether good or bad, happen by the practice of our God given free will, in which we are in charge of, not God. So God intentionally created beings that would sin. He gave them decision making ability and somehow this creation is not his responsibility? If I give a child a gun and he shoots his child friend and the friend dies, is it his fault or mine? It is the same. God, according to you, gave men the ability to make decisions, this ability led to sin.

AOR
Originally posted by Regret
Ahh, but here I am addressing Fist of the North's beliefs, not some other interpretation or belief.

But to address your statement, how do you know? The Bible does not give statement as to what is and is not metaphor or simile. It is solely personal belief based in either your personal study or your researching of texts others have written on the subject. It may be that the creation account is literal, it may be that it is metaphorical, I do not deny that the account presented in Genesis is not complete enough so as to affirmatively state the nature and method of creation to any absolute other than that God played a role.

From your other post I assume you are Catholic, if this is incorrect you may correct me.


So, we see the Catholic Church has God creating everything ex nihilo, including the Angels, one of whom was Satan. We learn that, according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, God created evil intentionally. And thus sin is due to God, he created a world where he knew sin would occur.

First step


Step two



In short, who are we to know the will of God?

Regret
Originally posted by AOR
In short, who are we to know the will of God? Which is what I stated. We do not know to what extent the Genesis account is literal or metaphorical. It may be entirely literal, it may be entirely metaphorical, it may be somewhere in between.

God did create everything ex nihilo, given the Catechism quote I presented. This leads to his responsibility for the existence of evil.

AOR
Originally posted by Regret
Which is what I stated. We do not know to what extent the Genesis account is literal or metaphorical. It may be entirely literal, it may be entirely metaphorical, it may be somewhere in between.

God did create everything ex nihilo, given the Catechism quote I presented. This leads to his responsibility for the existence of evil.

But God did create everything out of nothing. There was was no universe before, or an earth, or even the simplest atom. Sin is not a creation object, but an idea thereof. God did not "create sin", do recognize God as God you must consider it a fallacy for something wholly good to create something "wholly evil". However man is not God, and therefore not unlimited in what they can or can not do. Considering that man can aire, but God can not is a susceptible foundation for the Fall of Man. Besides, you are trying to understand something that no man on earth has come to a logical conclusion of. To simply say "it's wrong because I do not understand it/can't explain it" is an err in judgement.

FistOfThe North
Originally posted by Regret
So God intentionally created beings that would sin. He gave them decision making ability and somehow this creation is not his responsibility? If I give a child a gun and he shoots his child friend and the friend dies, is it his fault or mine? It is the same. God, according to you, gave men the ability to make decisions, this ability led to sin.

Not to be brazen but I don't like your analogy.

Both cases would be my responsibility in that I was the one that created the situation. The decision was not mine though. Which means that ultimately, the responsible party, is in theory, the young child murderer. Also that's where innocence kicks in. And since we don't know the child's age nor at what age innocence truly dies, if the child innocently killed his child friend then it could be seen as an accident, free of sin, but if it was done on purpose with (mal)intent then it was purely a sinful act caused by the kid.

Regret
Originally posted by AOR
But God did create everything out of nothing. There was was no universe before, or an earth, or even the simplest atom. Sin is not a creation object, but an idea thereof. God did not "create sin", do recognize God as God you must consider it a fallacy for something wholly good to create something "wholly evil". However man is not God, and therefore not unlimited in what they can or can not do. Considering that man can aire, but God can not is a susceptible foundation for the Fall of Man. Besides, you are trying to understand something that no man on earth has come to a logical conclusion of. To simply say "it's wrong because I do not understand it/can't explain it" is an err in judgement. I am not trying to understand anything. God created everything. He created the man that can err. He gave man the ability to err, it was a gift, yes. The Catechism states that this was created in this manner so that the world would be "in a state of journeying" He created the ability to sin so that sin would occur, so that the creation could learn and progress to the state of perfection. Sin is possible due to God, it is possible intentionally to provide this "state of journeying". God is thus due to God.

Stating that anything of God is a "mystery" and unknowable is a cop out and not Biblical, for God "giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not" (James 1:5).

Regret
Originally posted by FistOfThe North
Not to be brazen but I don't like your analogy.

Both cases would be my responsibility in that I was the one that created the situation. The decision was not mine though. Which means that ultimately, the responsible party, is in theory, the young child murderer. Also that's where innocence kicks in. And since we don't know the child's age nor at what age innocence truly dies, if the child innocently killed his child friend then it could be seen as an accident, free of sin, but if it was done on purpose with (mal)intent then it was purely a sinful act caused by the kid. I am assuming the innocent child, at a state of less understanding and knowledge than you. The same position as God (Adult) and man (Child) comparably.

You may not like the analogy, but it is the same. The child is not responsible, and it is an accident, but you are the individual that enabled the accident's occurrence.

AOR

Regret

debbiejo
*Yawns*

There are mysteries that we don't understand, but Jesus told us that we can do exactly as he did. We can throw mountains into the sea, we can heal people as we see other religions do and not in the name of Jesus. Jesus was of Jewish decent and had to follow after the law, and he did, YET, he taught that anyone could do magnificent things. He didn't say anyone had to become a Jew to do it, if I remember right. He taught the the Jewish leaders were corrupt that's why he was hated so by them..........Paul and the church so twisted his message that it makes me puke. Now because of it the real message was lost an those that have rediscovered it are ridiculed by the institution that twisted it in the first place, the damn whore of Babylon.

Oh, and people should read James other writings not the ones chosen by the holy church of crap.

AOR
Originally posted by debbiejo
*Yawns*

There are mysteries that we don't understand, but Jesus told us that we can do exactly as he did. We can throw mountains into the sea, we can heal people as we see other religions do and not in the name of Jesus. Jesus was of Jewish decent and had to follow after the law, and he did, YET, he taught that anyone could do magnificent things. He didn't say anyone had to become a Jew to do it, if I remember right. He taught the the Jewish leaders were corrupt that's why he was hated so by them..........Paul and the church so twisted his message that it makes me puke. Now because of it the real message was lost an those that have rediscovered it are ridiculed by the institution that twisted it in the first place, the damn whore of Babylon.

Oh, and people should read James other writings not the ones chosen by the holy church of crap.

As much as you expect to respect us to show respect to your religion, please show some respect to mine.

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