Hawkgirl vs. Valkyrie

Sixth_Winged

Originally posted by King_Mungi
How old is Valkyrie? as Hawkgirl has over thousands of years of experience

Strength is moot, as Hawkman and Hawkgirl have hurt Despero, Black Adam, Martian Manhunter and Superman with their strikes.

With the Claw of Horus she could control the four fundamentals of the universe not just "punch with a planet"

How is experience even being debatable here? Valkryie is an asgardian goddess. She has been escorting the souls of the worthy deceased from the 9 worlds to valhalla for thousand and thousand of years now. Not to mention the fact that Asgard is almost at constant warfare with the trolls, the frost giants, etc.

But anyway, when has the current hawkgirl shown she has the possession of the Claw of Horus? Or control the four fundamentals of the universe(which only Onymar Synn afaik have shown)? Seriosly when has she ever used the claw using it that way?

And how is strength moot anyway. Supposed Valkrie dodge a mace attack from Hawkgirl and managed to slice it off, would you still think hawkgirl has a chance with her strength level?

King_Mungi

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
How is experience even being debatable here? Valkryie is an asgardian goddess. She has been escorting the souls of the worthy deceased from the 9 worlds to valhalla for thousand and thousand of years now. Not to mention the fact that Asgard is almost at constant warfare with the trolls, the frost giants, etc.

But anyway, when has the current hawkgirl shown she has the possession of the Claw of Horus? Or control the four fundamentals of the universe(which only Onymar Synn afaik have shown)? Seriosly when has she ever used the claw using it that way?

And how is strength moot anyway. Supposed Valkrie dodge a mace attack from Hawkgirl and managed to slice it off, would you still think hawkgirl has a chance with her strength level?

Well considering there have been many different Valkyrie with varying experience. Also even Hawkeye has battled similar foes...and won. You are greatly underestimating her. Well once again she was with the pharoh of Egypt thousands of years ago, while Valyrie served 600 to 1000 AD. Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't she not fly?

---------------------------------------------
Battles
---------------------------------------------
Hawkman #42 : Pilgram (Kendra)
Everyone still believes Carter is dead, and for some unknown reason these Pilgrim guy wants to kill Kendra. First he attacked her in the hospital and now in her home. Well she doesn't like that and she pulls out the Claw of Horus to do battle.

1. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/HawkmanV4042page16.jpg
2. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/HawkmanV4042page17.jpg
3. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/HawkmanV4042page18.jpg
4. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/HawkmanV4042page19.jpg
5. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/HawkmanV4042page20.jpg
6. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/HawkmanV4042page21.jpg

Hawkgirl is faster than Valkyrie, and people who are far faster than even Hawkgril have failed to do so why would Valkyrie succeed?

King_Mungi

damn it Hawkeye=Hawkgirl
====
Anyways continuation:
"But anyway, when has the current hawkgirl shown she has the possession of the Claw of Horus?"

Her and Hawkman joint-share their weapons that's a stated fact, both have access to the Claw that's not rare.

Sixth_Winged

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Well considering there have been many different Valkyrie with varying experience. Also even Hawkeye has battled similar foes...and won. You are greatly underestimating her. Well once again she was with the pharoh of Egypt thousands of years ago, while Valyrie served 600 to 1000 AD. Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't she not fly?

Well afaik, almost all topic concerning the Valkryie's are pertaining to brunhilde unless stated otherwise and not some of the other no-named Valkyrior. There's really no indication that she only started serving around that time and given the fact she operations on other battlefield other than midgard(616), that time may not necessarily translate to her debut as a valkryie.

I don't think she can fly either, otherwise she wouldn't need Aragorn.

Oh and the lives hawman and hawkwoman/girl led didn't always have them shown as warriors unlike Valkryie who has spend all her life as one.

Originally posted by King_Mungi

---------------------------------------------
Battles
---------------------------------------------
Hawkman #42 : Pilgram (Kendra)
Everyone still believes Carter is dead, and for some unknown reason these Pilgrim guy wants to kill Kendra. First he attacked her in the hospital and now in her home. Well she doesn't like that and she pulls out the Claw of Horus to do battle.

1. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/HawkmanV4042page16.jpg
2. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/HawkmanV4042page17.jpg
3. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/HawkmanV4042page18.jpg
4. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/HawkmanV4042page19.jpg
5. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/HawkmanV4042page20.jpg
6. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/HawkmanV4042page21.jpg

Hawkgirl is faster than Valkyrie, and people who are far faster than even Hawkgril have failed to do so why would Valkyrie succeed? Originally posted by King_Mungi

Hawkgirl is faster than Valkrie considering she has the mobility advantage with flight(travelling). Fighting speed? What made you think that? There's really no grounds for comparison for such.

And like i already asked, when has she used the claw of horus to she could control the four fundamentals of the universe? Heck AFAIK only Onymar synn has done such(might be wrong but kendra, when?)

King_Mungi

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
Well afaik, almost all topic concerning the Valkryie's are pertaining to brunhilde unless stated otherwise and not some of the other no-named Valkyrior. There's really no indication that she only started serving around that time and given the fact she operations on other battlefield other than midgard(616), that time may not necessarily translate to her debut as a valkryie.

I don't think she can fly either, otherwise she wouldn't need Aragorn.

Oh and the lives hawman and hawkwoman/girl led didn't always have them shown as warriors unlike Valkryie who has spend all her life as one.

Hawkgirl is faster than Valkrie considering she has the mobility advantage with flight(travelling). Fighting speed? What made you think that? There's really no grounds for comparison for such.

And like i already asked, when has she used the claw of horus to she could control the four fundamentals of the universe? Heck AFAIK only Onymar synn has done such(might be wrong but kendra, when?)

Well actually from the handbook that was the date she started serving. That link which I just looked at is from the first set of Marvel universe handbooks.

Actually as stated more so than not, Hawkman and her make comments about how they can never truely find peice and in each life-time they will always fight Hath-Set. Valkayrie really hasn't done anything to impressive.

Hawkman has even kept up with Johnny Quick, and the nth metal as stated increase his strength, your mind and your speed.

She did it against Pilgrim she channeled his energy and powered the glove. That's what the gloves does. She hasn't used it many times, but that's what is stated about the glove. Plus the fact Hawkgirl and Hawkman were destined to don it as Dr.Fate forsaw.

Sixth_Winged

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Well actually from the handbook that was the date she started serving. That link which I just looked at is from the first set of Marvel universe handbooks.

As a valkryie assigned on midgard. Not necessarily the total amount of time she started fighting as a warrior.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Actually as stated more so than not, Hawkman and her make comments about how they can never truely find peice and in each life-time they will always fight Hath-Set. Valkayrie really hasn't done anything to impressive.

And they didn't get instantly reborn on earth as adults were they? In fact, some didn't even used archaic weapons hawkman had. I can even make the case some of his incarnation didn't didn't even had any notable superpowered villains to fight with(with the exception of hath seth)

So in the end: Questionable foes, different experience in different methods, etc.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Hawkman has even kept up with Johnny Quick, and the nth metal as stated increase his strength, your mind and your speed.

Once again travelling speed.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
She did it against Pilgrim she channeled his energy and powered the glove. That's what the gloves does. She hasn't used it many times, but that's what is stated about the glove. Plus the fact Hawkgirl and Hawkman were destined to don it as Dr.Fate forsaw.

And in the end, the effects were merely the same effect done by the claw of horus in the past, punch hard. There goes manipulating the four fundamental forces of the universe. BTW where was it mentioned that what she did in the scan?

Also why are you bringing up a possible future scenario that hasn't happened so far?

King_Mungi

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
As a valkryie assigned on midgard. Not necessarily the total amount of time she started fighting as a warrior.

Well considering most Asgard's are not that old, they have been ressurected many times but as completly new.

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged

And they didn't get instantly reborn on earth as adults were they? In fact, some didn't even used archaic weapons hawkman had. I can even make the case some of his incarnation didn't didn't even had any notable superpowered villains to fight with(with the exception of hath seth)

So in the end: Questionable foes, different experience in different methods, etc.

Depends actually, sometimes yes sometimes no. Kendra the current Hawkgirl is the most recent case where the soul of the former Hawkgirl went into Kendra's body and took control even when there was another soul inside. You would be incorrect, as Hawkman has dealt with the vampiric demon Grey, the uber powerful magical user Trygg the Sorcerer, etc. So yes even in their past lives they have fought powerful villians.

Actually all the experience and memory of all their past lives they retain indefinetly. That's due to the nth metal enhancing their mind so they can remember all their past lives.

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
Once again travelling speed.

No fighting speed...plus anyways Hawkgirl going mach speeds on Valkyrie with a mace strike and it's over regardless.

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged

And in the end, the effects were merely the same effect done by the claw of horus in the past, punch hard. There goes manipulating the four fundamental forces of the universe. BTW where was it mentioned that what she did in the scan?

Also why are you bringing up a possible future scenario that hasn't happened so far?

The only time the Claw was used to punch hard was against Superman and all the others times it's stated in JSA and Hawkman it controls the 4 fundamentals of the universe. Wasn't mentioned in that issue, but mentioned several times earlier by Dr.Fate, Synn, JSA that's what the claw does. We know it does that and that's a stated fact.

Actually the possible scenario already happened...that was during Synn's run

Sixth_Winged

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Well considering most Asgard's are not that old, they have been ressurected many times but as completly new.

And what's your evidence that they're not that old? Any at all to indicate the previous cycle of ragnarok was preceded by the time of prince khufu.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Depends actually, sometimes yes sometimes no. Kendra the current Hawkgirl is the most recent case where the soul of the former Hawkgirl went into Kendra's body and took control even when there was another soul inside. You would be incorrect, as Hawkman has dealt with the vampiric demon Grey, the uber powerful magical user Trygg the Sorcerer, etc. So yes even in their past lives they have fought powerful villians.

Not really as kendra is the first and only known case where instead of being ressurected, the possession would apply. In other cases like Cinnammon and Shiela Carr, they are mostly oblivious. BTW, Kendra's actual soul departed because she commited suicide. Basically a single instance.

And two or three supervillain doesn't equate to a lifetime worth of battle experience.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Actually all the experience and memory of all their past lives they retain indefinetly. That's due to the nth metal enhancing their mind so they can remember all their past lives.

They do, but i wasn't saying otherwise. What i was questioning was the thousand of years of experience which half or even more was basically hawkman and hawkgirl living their lives peacefully and when they are awakened with those memories. Heck, some are more adjusted to using guns.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
No fighting speed...plus anyways Hawkgirl going mach speeds on Valkyrie with a mace strike and it's over regardless.

Hmmm...really. Can i see the scans with hawkman matching Johnny quick in battlespeed?

And as if Asgardians are ordinary humans when it comes to reflexes and other physiological factors.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
The only time the Claw was used to punch hard was against Superman and all the others times it's stated in JSA and Hawkman it controls the 4 fundamentals of the universe. Wasn't mentioned in that issue, but mentioned several times earlier by Dr.Fate, Synn, JSA that's what the claw does. We know it does that and that's a stated fact.

Actually the possible scenario already happened...that was during Synn's run

Except for the scan you just showed where Kendra did the same(albeit also blocking a mystical blast).

Possible Scenario? When? Unless of course your pertaining to Synn who was trapped for thousand of years and has the knowledge to actually do so.

Unless it's been done by Hawkgirl, that would remain plausible but still useless in a debate.

King_Mungi

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
And what's your evidence that they're not that old? Any at all to indicate the previous cycle of ragnarok was preceded by the time of prince khufu.

Umm stated fact they have to die to start the cycle all over again. So they are constantly reborn.

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged

Not really as kendra is the first and only known case where instead of being ressurected, the possession would apply. In other cases like Cinnammon and Shiela Carr, they are mostly oblivious. BTW, Kendra's actual soul departed because she commited suicide. Basically a single instance.

And two or three supervillain doesn't equate to a lifetime worth of battle experience.

Incorrect, Carter and Kator merged together as well and now Carter is the dominant body.

No those were examples of uber people they fought and they retain the knowledge and experience from this battles. Once again stated fact they have thousands of years of warfare experience.

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged

They do, but i wasn't saying otherwise. What i was questioning was the thousand of years of experience which half or even more was basically hawkman and hawkgirl living their lives peacefully and when they are awakened with those memories. Heck, some are more adjusted to using guns.

Nope as stated after Carter was reborn, he comments in Hawkman vol.4 he's only one time he had peace was when he became a samurai/ronin and didn't remember his other lives as the rest he has constantly been battling so he traveled the lands.

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged

Hmmm...really. Can i see the scans with hawkman matching Johnny quick in battlespeed?

And as if Asgardians are ordinary humans when it comes to reflexes and other physiological factors.

First page of the Hawkman respect thread.

They don't have super metahuman reflexes as sans the handbooks and comics.

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged

Except for the scan you just showed where Kendra did the same(albeit also blocking a mystical blast).

Possible Scenario? When? Unless of course your pertaining to Synn who was trapped for thousand of years and has the knowledge to actually do so.

Unless it's been done by Hawkgirl, that would remain plausible but still useless in a debate.

Not really, after she asorbed the blast she sent it back, and when she went into the tunnel she sent another blast out rocking the underground system.

Ummm...no, you said the possible scenerio was with Dr.Fate saying Hawkman was destined to don the Claw of Horus and I already said it happened.

Not really as countless times Hawkman and Hawkgirl are stated to be equals as they share all the same experiences as their always destined to be together.

Sixth_Winged

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Umm stated fact they have to die to start the cycle all over again. So they are constantly reborn.

I don't recall questioning the cycle of Ragnarok? What I was asking for was specifically the starting point of the previous cycle to denote the asgardian's race's age.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Incorrect, Carter and Kator merged together as well and now Carter is the dominant body.

Not really as kendra is the first and only known case where instead of being ressurected, the possession would apply.

What does Carter and Katar merging together have to do with that?

And if you're stating that to reference the other form of gaining experience from previous life, when has something like that ever happened to his previous lives?

Originally posted by King_Mungi
No those were examples of uber people they fought and they retain the knowledge and experience from this battles. Once again stated fact they have thousands of years of warfare experience.

And i'm pretty sure you'd be hardpress to know of others.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Nope as stated after Carter was reborn, he comments in Hawkman vol.4 he's only one time he had peace was when he became a samurai/ronin and didn't remember his other lives as the rest he has constantly been battling so he traveled the lands.

Being born as a detective in the 19th century would disprove that. Inconsistent statements regarding his life that is shown otherwise. Why don't we just throw the childhood and civilian pursuits of those reincarnations while were at it?

Not knowing peace throughout his whole life shouldn't really be taken literally.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
First page of the Hawkman respect thread.

They don't have super metahuman reflexes as sans the handbooks and comics.

No, that's PIS on Johnny Quick's part. Wouldn't surprise me though considering it was pretty damn rampant during pre-crisis DC.

But i'm pretty sure Flash's pc rogues would have speed on par with hawkman considering they have done things similar.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Not really, after she asorbed the blast she sent it back, and when she went into the tunnel she sent another blast out rocking the underground system.

She looks like she only blocked it and punch him twice to me. And even if it wasn't it seems to be open to other interpretation.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Ummm...no, you said the possible scenerio was with Dr.Fate saying Hawkman was destined to don the Claw of Horus and I already said it happened.

Not really as countless times Hawkman and Hawkgirl are stated to be equals as they share all the same experiences as their always destined to be together.

Uhmm...the possible scenerio was with Dr.Fate saying Hawkman was destined to don the Claw of Horus.......when did i ask for that. You might have misintrepreted what I was asking for.

I was asking on him being able to control the fundamental forces of the universe with it. Any feats at all showing hawkman explicitly doing it.

King_Mungi

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
I don't recall questioning the cycle of Ragnarok? What I was asking for was specifically the starting point of the previous cycle to denote the asgardian's race's age.

because they start fresh, they don't retain their past experiences.

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged

Not really as kendra is the first and only known case where instead of being ressurected, the possession would apply.

What does Carter and Katar merging together have to do with that?

And if you're stating that to reference the other form of gaining experience from previous life, when has something like that ever happened to his previous lives?

Incorrect, I just mentioned another. If there is a Carter blood in the world they can take over the soul as Hath Set does to his ancestors.

Because it shows another example of them not being born again and reviving, but they start fresh as an adult.

Yep, thanks to the Absorbacon, or whatever it's called Kator downloaded all the knowledge of Earth into his mind as well as Hawkwoman and Carter awhile ago bonded with Kator and all his memories were joined together.

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged

And i'm pretty sure you'd be hardpress to know of others.

R...i...g..h...t, so you really don't like what is stated in comics do you?

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged

Being born as a detective in the 19th century would disprove that. Inconsistent statements regarding his life that is shown otherwise. Why don't we just throw the childhood and civilian pursuits of those reincarnations while were at it?

Not knowing peace throughout his whole life shouldn't really be taken literally.

Not really as that's one lifestyle, and even then he didn't do no fighting and the fact that still adds to his experience. Except he has stated it not once, but MANY times. He has never known peace.

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged

No, that's PIS on Johnny Quick's part. Wouldn't surprise me though considering it was pretty damn rampant during pre-crisis DC.

But i'm pretty sure Flash's pc rogues would have speed on par with hawkman considering they have done things similar.

Not really, why do people constantly think Flash moves at lightspeed? he doesn't. Anyone who reads Flash knows it takes quite abit for him to even do that, and he needs serious momentum to achieve that. Also when Hawkman first appeared in Flash and the subsequent guest apperances after that he showed he can keep up with Flash due to his experience as stated.

Actually Hawkman is vastly faster than 90% of Flash's rogues.

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged

She looks like she only blocked it and punch him twice to me. And even if it wasn't it seems to be open to other interpretation.

Hardly, we know the Claw does more than just punch what's their to even debate?

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged

Uhmm...the possible scenerio was with Dr.Fate saying Hawkman was destined to don the Claw of Horus.......when did i ask for that. You might have misintrepreted what I was asking for.

I was asking on him being able to control the fundamental forces of the universe with it. Any feats at all showing hawkman explicitly doing it.

That's what I said, and then you replied about that.

All he did was rip Synn to peices, punch Superman with the planet and Hawkgirl punking Pilgrim. If it's said to do something, why would they not be able to use it? as They have been connected to nth metal in general for thousands of years.

Sixth_Winged

Originally posted by King_Mungi
because they start fresh, they don't retain their past experiences.

did you even understand the question?

What does starting fresh have to do with it?

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Incorrect, I just mentioned another. If there is a Carter blood in the world they can take over the soul as Hath Set does to his ancestors.

Because it shows another example of them not being born again and reviving, but they start fresh as an adult.

Yep, thanks to the Absorbacon, or whatever it's called Kator downloaded all the knowledge of Earth into his mind as well as Hawkwoman and Carter awhile ago bonded with Kator and all his memories were joined together.

Uhmm....what hell. Are you just going in circles?

Not really as kendra is the first and only known case where instead of being ressurected, the possession would apply.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
R...i...g..h...t, so you really don't like what is stated in comics do you?

Okaaayyyy... anything else? Anymore fights against supervillains? no?

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Not really as that's one lifestyle, and even then he didn't do no fighting and the fact that still adds to his experience. Except he has stated it not once, but MANY times. He has never known peace.

Which your taking far too literally. It's a given fact heroes state narrative hyperbole time and time again. But hey, let's not question the possibility they were at constant warfare against supervillains the day they were born.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Not really, why do people constantly think Flash moves at lightspeed? he doesn't. Anyone who reads Flash knows it takes quite abit for him to even do that, and he needs serious momentum to achieve that. Also when Hawkman first appeared in Flash and the subsequent guest apperances after that he showed he can keep up with Flash due to his experience as stated.

So basically hawkman had a chance because a flash equal was moving on just the righ amount of speed to be caught offguard by Hawkman. Or we could just say a flash level character dumbed down his vastly superior reflexes just so Hawkman's fist could connect with his jaw.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Actually Hawkman is vastly faster than 90% of Flash's rogues.

And most of that 90% have done feats akin to hawkman's against flash? A slight variation in speed doesn't denote really differentiate from much of flash's rogue who trive in being able to have plot induced stupidity in their fights against flash.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Hardly, we know the Claw does more than just punch what's their to even debate?

Oh great, so just because we know the claw can do more than just that means a theoretical feat could be achieved by individuals who hasn't displayed such.

That's like asking a normal civilian driver to swap places with a race car driver expecting them to perform just as well in a race because a race car is so much better.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
That's what I said, and then you replied about that.

All he did was rip Synn to peices, punch Superman with the planet and Hawkgirl punking Pilgrim. If it's said to do something, why would they not be able to use it? as They have been connected to nth metal in general for thousands of years.

Not really, as i replied with a question asking about the four forces universe manipulating feat hawkman had.

Why would they not be able to use it? Because it's never happened and you're just basically speculating that they can?

And no, they weren't trapped in a prison made of nth metal for thousands upon thousands of years like Synn.

King_Mungi

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
did you even understand the question?

Yes I do just because Hawkman/Hawkgirl have lived many lives their not that age. They start a new with each life, however, unlike the Asgardians they retain their previous lives knowledge

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged

What does starting fresh have to do with it?

All your past experience is gone.

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged

Uhmm....what hell. Are you just going in circles?

Not really as kendra is the first and only known case where instead of being ressurected, the possession would apply.

Incorrect, Carter and Kator is another case. I already explained they can do exactally do what Hath Set does... so no. As stated all three are bound by destiny they do what each can do

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged

Okaaayyyy... anything else? Anymore fights against supervillains? no?

What Hawkman/Hawkgirl? Yes of course there is, you honestly don't think they havn't?....r...i...g...h..t.

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged

Which your taking far too literally. It's a given fact heroes state narrative hyperbole time and time again. But hey, let's not question the possibility they were at constant warfare against supervillains the day they were born.

No hyperbole as every flashback they have had has them being in some kind of war. So once again you can't simply just ignore what is stated in the comics, if you don't like it. It's stated multiple times to boot.

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged

So basically hawkman had a chance because a flash equal was moving on just the righ amount of speed to be caught offguard by Hawkman. Or we could just say a flash level character dumbed down his vastly superior reflexes just so Hawkman's fist could connect with his jaw.

Once again no, hell even Deadly Ernest with just his experience has caught Northstar and Aurora at the same time when they flew at fast speeds directly behind him. So if it happens more than once and is in his powerset we should ignore it? Prior and after that issue with Hawkman Johnny Quick went toe to toe with Flash and same results. Like I said before, Hawkman has caught up with the Flash before as contrary to what people think Flash is not going near lightspeed speeds all the time.

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged

And most of that 90% have done feats akin to hawkman's against flash? A slight variation in speed doesn't denote really differentiate from much of flash's rogue who trive in being able to have plot induced stupidity in their fights against flash.

*sigh* Most of Flash's rogues are just human, with no enhanced speed but are meta. Murmur, Captain Cold, Heat Wave, Captain Boomerang (excluding current), Trickster, Abra Kadabra, Alchemist, Atom Smasher, Chillbane, Cicada, Clown, Mr.Element, Fiddler, Girder, Gorilla Gordd, Shade, Vandal Savage, Weather Wizard, etc. etc. etc. Flash as stated by himself takes a great deal to go lightspeed and often times is afraid of doing thus as he would get put into the speedforce. It took Flash to run across several states to build up knocking power to knock Gordd out.

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged

Oh great, so just because we know the claw can do more than just that means a theoretical feat could be achieved by individuals who hasn't displayed such.

That's like asking a normal civilian driver to swap places with a race car driver expecting them to perform just as well in a race because a race car is so much better.

They have, you tend to simply ignore it, they cancelled the anti-gravity of the nth metal when he first got the claw. They know how to use it.

---------------------------------------------
Technology
---------------------------------------------
JSA #24 : Claw of Horus
Hawkman first dons the Claw of Horus and easily defeats the first wave of the dark Thanagarian army.

1. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/JSA24-05.jpg
2. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/JSA24-06-07.jpg
3. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/JSA24-08.jpg

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged

Not really, as i replied with a question asking about the four forces universe manipulating feat hawkman had.

Why would they not be able to use it? Because it's never happened and you're just basically speculating that they can?

And no, they weren't trapped in a prison made of nth metal for thousands upon thousands of years like Synn.

UUUUUUH...We know it does it as stated, why do you simply just ignore things stated in comics and we even saw Hawkman punch with the Earth you don't think that's not taping into the 4 fundamentals of the universe? Another example is when Hawkman first dons the Claw he deactivates the nth metal anti-gtravity in the Synn's army forcing them to crash into the ground.

It has happened, you tend to just ignore on-panel feats on quotes.

Hawkman has had no trouble using the claw to even alter the nth metal and rip apart Synn with it not even in contact with him.

Martian_mind

Uhhh Mungi....i know about the revamp cycle...but the last revamp occured well before The egyptians....there is a tale of asgard that shows Odin battling surtur and creating the moon....not to mention Thor was around with Cro-magnons and the such..

Sixth_Winged

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Yes I do just because Hawkman/Hawkgirl have lived many lives their not that age. They start a new with each life, however, unlike the Asgardians they retain their previous lives knowledge

All your past experience is gone.

Awesome, so just because they couldn't remember the past lives they led as asgardians before the previous cycle means all their past experience is gone? Brilliant!!!

And for the record when have i stated the i was taking Valkryie's experience as an asgardian prior to the previous cycle of ragnarok? When? Seriously if you can provide me a quote when i said such thing i'll concede defeat immediately.

And no, i see clearly that you don't understnad

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Incorrect, Carter and Kator is another case. I already explained they can do exactally do what Hath Set does... so no. As stated all three are bound by destiny they do what each can do

Merging is a far cry from Possessing a body uninhabited by a soul.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
What Hawkman/Hawkgirl? Yes of course there is, you honestly don't think they havn't?....r...i...g...h..t.

Of course i don't unless it's hath seth the recurring antagonist throughout their lives. Other than that nope.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
No hyperbole as every flashback they have had has them being in some kind of war. So once again you can't simply just ignore what is stated in the comics, if you don't like it. It's stated multiple times to boot.

Oh brother. Did you just ignore the point that i was trying to convey earlier or you're that just dense. It's likely logical those flashbacks were from a point in some of his lives where his destiny caught up with him not necessarily translating he lived his entire lives on constant warfare.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Once again no, hell even Deadly Ernest with just his experience has caught Northstar and Aurora at the same time when they flew at fast speeds directly behind him. So if it happens more than once and is in his powerset we should ignore it? Prior and after that issue with Hawkman Johnny Quick went toe to toe with Flash and same results. Like I said before, Hawkman has caught up with the Flash before as contrary to what people think Flash is not going near lightspeed speeds all the time.

*sigh* Most of Flash's rogues are just human, with no enhanced speed but are meta. Murmur, Captain Cold, Heat Wave, Captain Boomerang (excluding current), Trickster, Abra Kadabra, Alchemist, Atom Smasher, Chillbane, Cicada, Clown, Mr.Element, Fiddler, Girder, Gorilla Gordd, Shade, Vandal Savage, Weather Wizard, etc. etc. etc. Flash as stated by himself takes a great deal to go lightspeed and often times is afraid of doing thus as he would get put into the speedforce. It took Flash to run across several states to build up knocking power to knock Gordd out.

So basically what you're saying with those two paragraphs is that hawkman's speed is quick enough to overwhelm Flash's reflexes? NO PIS THERE!!! whistle

Originally posted by King_Mungi
They have, you tend to simply ignore it, they cancelled the anti-gravity of the nth metal when he first got the claw. They know how to use it.

---------------------------------------------
Technology
---------------------------------------------
JSA #24 : Claw of Horus
Hawkman first dons the Claw of Horus and easily defeats the first wave of the dark Thanagarian army.

1. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/JSA24-05.jpg
2. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/JSA24-06-07.jpg
3. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/JSA24-08.jpg

Finally some hint of it's potential. Still a farcry from controlling all the fundamental forces of the universe though but much better than your misleaded post before.

But look on image. it's not controlling gravity but the claw of horus having some degree of control over the nth metal(which in turn have a slight degree of gravity control that allows them to fly) that powers the thanagarian army. I'd suggest analyzing the images you present first.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
UUUUUUH...We know it does it as stated, why do you simply just ignore things stated in comics and we even saw Hawkman punch with the Earth you don't think that's not taping into the 4 fundamentals of the universe? Another example is when Hawkman first dons the Claw he deactivates the nth metal anti-gtravity in the Synn's army forcing them to crash into the ground.

It has happened, you tend to just ignore on-panel feats on quotes.

Tapping: probably, manipulating them: hellno. Tell me, did the any statment on that issue regarded it as such?

Another example? like the one above. Riiight.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Hawkman has had no trouble using the claw to even alter the nth metal and rip apart Synn with it not even in contact with him.

That's because it can control Nth metal energies like the one you provided. Great job albeit it's useless in this scenario.

King_Mungi

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Uhhh Mungi....i know about the revamp cycle...but the last revamp occured well before The egyptians....there is a tale of asgard that shows Odin battling surtur and creating the moon....not to mention Thor was around with Cro-magnons and the such..

Yes I know of that, and they were reponsible for the death of the Dinosaurs. However, when they die they literally start fresh they start all over again. We don't know when the last cycle began.

Sixth_Winged

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Uhhh Mungi....i know about the revamp cycle...but the last revamp occured well before The egyptians....there is a tale of asgard that shows Odin battling surtur and creating the moon....not to mention Thor was around with Cro-magnons and the such..

That's correct. Now if he can only concede to that, these debate between experience would halt.

Sixth_Winged

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Yes I know of that, and they were reponsible for the death of the Dinosaurs. However, when they die they literally start fresh they start all over again. We don't know when the last cycle began.

he was saying thor's(the blonde one which is the classic thor we know) has been around the cro-magnon era. So that eliminates the question if hawkman's origin preceded him or not since his first origin was that of prince khufu is predated.

King_Mungi

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
Awesome, so just because they couldn't remember the past lives they led as asgardians before the previous cycle means all their past experience is gone? Brilliant!!!

And for the record when have i stated the i was taking Valkryie's experience as an asgardian prior to the previous cycle of ragnarok? When? Seriously if you can provide me a quote when i said such thing i'll concede defeat immediately.

And no, i see clearly that you don't understnad

Actually yes, if they can't remember their past lives you think they can tap into it?

Actually I don't know what your talking about, you questioned Hawkman/Hawkgirl's experience and I proved and showed they have been doing this for thousands of years.

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged

Merging is a far cry from Possessing a body uninhabited by a soul.

Actually if you read the stories all the spirits of the previous Hawks and the future were absorbed into Kator and Carter when they became the Hawk Avatar.

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged

Of course i don't unless it's hath seth the recurring antagonist throughout their lives. Other than that nope.

Uhhh...NO. As stated all three can do the same thing thanks to Hath set using that nth metal on each other which binded their spirits. Current Hath-Set in vol.4 was killed early in the series, but he instantly transfered his soul into a new body.

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged

Oh brother. Did you just ignore the point that i was trying to convey earlier or you're that just dense. It's likely logical those flashbacks were from a point in some of his lives where his destiny caught up with him not necessarily translating he lived his entire lives on constant warfare.

Obviously your not getting it as in vol.4 the current Hawkman he has said he has never had peace he is at constant war NOT in a flashback but current time. This is Hawkman now and he said that. Plus he has all of Kator's memories combined into his as well. Sadly you just can't grasp the concept.

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged

So basically what you're saying with those two paragraphs is that hawkman's speed is quick enough to overwhelm Flash's reflexes? NO PIS THERE!!! whistle

*sigh* I guess it takes to actually read Flash and Hawkman to actually understand.

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged

Finally some hint of it's potential. Still a farcry from controlling all the fundamental forces of the universe though but much better than your misleaded post before.

But look on image. it's not controlling gravity but the claw of horus having some degree of control over the nth metal(which in turn have a slight degree of gravity control that allows them to fly) that powers the thanagarian army. I'd suggest analyzing the images you present first.

Guhhhh...even nth metal as my scan below says he can control the four fundamental of the universe. The Claw is just on a higher level and can tap into it easier.

Incorrect, the nth metal has a form of gravity control once again as STATED.

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged

Tapping: probably, manipulating them: hellno. Tell me, did the any statment on that issue regarded it as such?

Another example? like the one above. Riiight.

Uhhh...no as stated it controls. Please please please do your research, your saying things didn't happen when it's actually stated in comics.

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged

That's because it can control Nth metal energies like the one you provided. Great job albeit it's useless in this scenario.

And what does nth metal do? I'm getting tired of repeating myself.

---------------------------------------------
Nth Metal
---------------------------------------------
JSA #24 :
Hawkman explains the nth metal is very powerful and explains it can tap into the four fundamentals forces of the universe

1. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/JSA24-17.jpg

====
Question are you going to provide evidence or anything?

Sixth_Winged

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Actually yes, if they can't remember their past lives you think they can tap into it?

Actually I don't know what your talking about, you questioned Hawkman/Hawkgirl's experience and I proved and showed they have been doing this for thousands of years.

Why would Brunhilde need it if the previous cycle started... well predate ancient egypt? I really didn't take their past lives into account when i started replying on this topic. I'm not questioning Hawkman/Hawkgirl having thousands of years of experience, i'm saying that Brunhilde quite easily has them on trumps due to her age and the constant warfare asgard faces.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Actually if you read the stories all the spirits of the previous Hawks and the future were absorbed into Kator and Carter when they became the Hawk Avatar.

That hawkgod went insane and got thrown by Arion and others to limbo. Apparently he was just thinking he was hawkman with the retcon.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Uhhh...NO. As stated all three can do the same thing thanks to Hath set using that nth metal on each other which binded their spirits. Current Hath-Set in vol.4 was killed early in the series, but he instantly transfered his soul into a new body.

But that's hath-set and not Carter and Shayera. They don't use unorthodox methods for reincarnation(with the exception of Shayera). Carter was ressurected by someone else(Those high priest in Thanagar) using his connection with Kendra. If it was left to a natural process, Carter would've ressurected normally as a child by some parents along with Shayera.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Obviously your not getting it as in vol.4 the current Hawkman he has said he has never had peace he is at constant war NOT in a flashback but current time. This is Hawkman now and he said that. Plus he has all of Kator's memories combined into his as well. Sadly you just can't grasp the concept.

How old is Katar?
How old is this current hawkman?
Take that along with with the previous lives they lead (on which one point of those lives, each crosses the destiny of runnin into trouble)?

is still not equal to Brunhilde's time as an asgardian warrior

Grasp that.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
*sigh* I guess it takes to actually read Flash and Hawkman to actually understand.

It's quite simple, in order for that feat to be valid, hawkman's speed might be comparable to that of flash's reflexes. comparable travel speed is fine and dandy but when you catch flash offguard with another character's attack and claim that character has comparable speed, logic must be considered.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Guhhhh...even nth metal as my scan below says he can control the four fundamental of the universe. The Claw is just on a higher level and can tap into it easier.

Incorrect, the nth metal has a form of gravity control once again as STATED.

I didn't discount the nth metal has a form of gravity control. What i'm trying to get accross is that the claw of horus controlled the metal themselves and rendered them useless.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Uhhh...no as stated it controls. Please please please do your research, your saying things didn't happen when it's actually stated in comics.Originally posted by King_Mungi

The Nth metal energies...What's hard for that to understand. Did it say something about nullifying the energy around those people as oppose to controlling the nth metaland the energies itself?

Originally posted by King_Mungi
And what does nth metal do? I'm getting tired of repeating myself.

---------------------------------------------
Nth Metal
---------------------------------------------
JSA #24 :
Hawkman explains the nth metal is very powerful and explains it can tap into the four fundamentals forces of the universe

1. http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p68/DCHawks_photo/JSA24-17.jpg

====
Question are you going to provide evidence or anything?

That explanation is all fine and good but the thing is, he didn't mentioned he could do it himself in the scan. He did note however that Onymarr Synn can do so.

So in the end, it's plausible with enough knowledge in controlling it as Hawkman himself stated, however he didn't say he can do so himself.

King_Mungi

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
Why would Brunhilde need it if the previous cycle started well predate ancient egypt. I really didn't take their past lives into account when i started replying on this topic. I'm not questioning Hawkman/Hawkgirl having thousands of years of experience, i'm saying that Brunhilde quite easily has them on trumps due to her age and the constant warfare asgard faces.

As I said earlier, wasn't sure what you were saying. I thought you were implying she could tap into the time before the cycle began once again like the Hawks can. Sure I'll agree with that. I thought you were implying the Hawk's don't have the experience and skill to keep up with her. I think we both misinterupted each other.

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
That hawkgod went insane and got thrown by Arion and others to limbo. Apparently he was just thinking he was hawkman with the retcon.

Vol.3 was Kator as the Hawkman and then mid-way through the series he absorbed Hawkman and Hawkwoman into his being as well as the souls of the Hawks from the past and future becoming the Hawk avatar. He wasn't thinking he was Hawkman, he was Hawkman. All of vol.2-3 and Hawkworld was Kator Holl. There was breifly a fake Hawkman in Hawkworld, but he didn't last long as he was just a spy. Also Hawkgod was sent into his dimension by Kator not Arion. Arion at the end of the series sent Kator to the Hawk God's dimesion not the Hawk God himself.

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
But that's hath-set and not Carter and Shayera. They don't use unorthodox methods for reincarnation(with the exception of Shayera). Carter was ressurected by someone else(Those high priest in Thanagar) using his connection with Kendra. If it was left to a natural process, Carter would've ressurected normally as a child by some parents along with Shayera.

As I mentioned earlier the way and reason they come back is their inter-twined. Actually it was Hawkgirl who ressurected him, bringing him back to the real world and out of the Hawk God's dimension. He wouldn't, as his and all the souls of the Hawk's past and future were banished to the Hawk God's dimension at the end of vol.3. He was going to be trapped there forever.

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged

How old is Katar?
How old is this current hawkman?
Take that along with with the previous lives they lead (on which one point of those lives, each crosses the destiny of runnin into trouble)?

is still not equal to Brunhilde's time as an asgardian warrior

Grasp that.

-Unknown, some Thanagarians can be hundreds of years old others *shrugs*
-His current body is actually young, around 20-25 (Dr.Midnite examined him) after being revieved.

Actually we don't know when the cycle was restarted and we don't know what Brunhilde has done in that time. As from what we have seen on-panel she hasn't done anything of note worthy.

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged

It's quite simple, in order for that feat to be valid, hawkman's speed might be comparable to that of flash's reflexes. comparable travel speed is fine and dandy but when you catch flash offguard with another character's attack and claim that character has comparable speed, logic must be considered.

Indeed as a mentioned posts back, Hawkman's mind and reflexes are augmented by the nth metal. Even easily dodging bullet shots from point blank range with ease.

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged
I didn't discount the nth metal has a form of gravity control. What i'm trying to get accross is that the clawo of horus controlled the metal themselves and rendered them useless.

What he did was cancell their control over gravity, right there it shows the Claw has control over the 4 fundamentals and a higher level than the regular metal.

Originally posted by Sixth_Winged

That explanation is all fine and good but the thing is, he didn't mentioned he could do it himself in the scann. He did note however that Onymarr Synn can do so.

So in the end, it's plausible with enough knowledge in controlling it as Hawkman himself stated, however he didn't say he can do so himself.

Except as stated by Carter even without the Claw he taps into a small amount of control with the nth metal. As he also said not on the level of Synn but he is learning. The Claw just ups his understanding and power with the nth metal as he showed he easily can do. He stoped the army even when he just used the claw for a second. He literally just put the claw on and then he did that.

That was just nth metal not the Claw, the Claw as he has shown he can tap into with the army and ripping apart Synn.
====
Sorry I got to calm down I'm in my mid-terms for college and emotions are getting high.