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One of Marvel's best fighters against one of DC's best fighters!

Who wins?

Cap each and every time.

Cap. barely though.

From what I've seen and heard, Lady Shiva should emerge with a hard earned victory over the original over the hill GI Joe.

Cap would find a way.

Captain America is better then Shiva in every way, including combat skill.

Cap wins.

in DC comics Shiva is said to possessed godlike fighting abilities. no offense to cap but he is not going to win against shiva

Shiva wins. it'll be a bit of a fight due to the SSS but he'll be an open book to her.

Sorry, but no way would Cap lose this.

Shiva has trained her entire life but Cap is faster, stronger, at least as skilled and a better tactician.

definitely not as skilled. and she'd know every move he'd make before he'd make it.

No she wouldn't, it has been stated many times that Cap's "fighting style" is fluid ... the fact that Promethues took Shiva down in under 3 seconds seems to suggest that she's a little over rated.

Captain America isn't a better fighter than Shiva.



Prometheus took her down due to two reasons:

A) She was grossly overconfident.

B) Prometheus upgrades his systems to vastly increase his strength, speed and reaction time. Also he had her fighting style as well as every other damn martial artist in DC in his files. Even WW.


Captain is a natural at fighting. But Shiva was born to fight and she simply knows more MA skills and techniques than he does.

Plus the fact that she possesses the same "body-reading" ability that Batgirl enables her to read Cap's every move as well as copy it.

Cap's a good fighter but he's not an MA like Shiva or Richard Dragon or Shang Chi...

And if you think about it, Cap's had what a couple of years in WWII to learn some MAs and few years as an Avenger to do the same?

Where in the world did he find the time to learn every MA style there is?

Shiva on the other hand has been doing it for her entire life.

Cap is enhanced to near superhuman levels.

Plus Cap has more experience then Shiva.

Shiva just has reputation but she is not a better fighter then Cap. Thanks to Cap's enhanced mind he can fight better then her, more effectively anyways.

If Shiva is a god at fighting for a god LOL she sure couldn't beat Batman 3 times in there fights.

Plus she only beat BG once while BG beat her two times. Then getting owned by Prom. Yeah her reputation is better then her feats.

Cap 7-8/10.

Shiva's never lost to Batman legititmately. Except in Batman/Superman. Where Batman managed to deflect a charging Captain Marvel with a swivel kick...

The first time they fought Robin helped with a gas grenade.

The second time they fought Batman nearly managed to defeat her but Shiva won in the end.

People are REALLY underestimating Lady Shiva's skill. She's on par or nearly on par with Richard Dragon. She's beaten Bronze Tiger...the same Bronze Tiger who's beaten Batman easily in their first encounter and nearly beat Batman again if not for Superman's intervention. Bronze Tiger also trained Richard Dragon...

Batgirl beat Shiva because of two reasons:

A) Batgirl mindf*cked her by realizing Shiva had a death-wish thus making Shiva attack irrationally.

B) It was implied the second time that Shiva lost on purpose as she was her mother and wanted to see Batgirl surpass her.


To imply that Captain America is more skilled at MA than Shiva would imply that he's better or at least as good as Richard Dragon or Cassandra Cain in MA.

And that's simply not true.

He's stronger but speed is up in the air since Shiva is a bullet-timer and she can keep up with Batgirl.

And sometimes, strength isn't all that's cracked up to be:

http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/2659/shivacroc1zd6.png

Captain America can win but not due to skill. He can win due to his superior strength and endurance and his 3-foot wide shield.

However he's going to work very, very, very hard for it. Simply because Shiva specializes in one-hit kills. Meaning a single strike from Shiva (even if it's glancing) can kill Cap if he's not careful.

But Cap isn't as skilled in MA as Shiva. That's simply not true...

Originally posted by Draco69
That's simply not true... You forget one very important factor. He has a penis. vin

My thread was better.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=418020

Also cf.
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=8395296#post8395296
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=418205

How long one thread has lasted compared to the other.

It's the penis effect. vin

The top three DC martial artists are as followed:

1) Richard Dragon
2) Bronze Tiger
2) Lady Shiva

This list is confirmed by not only Prometheus (who's compiled every damn martial artist in the world) but also Batman, Sensei and many other MAs in the world.

The trio were inseperable for a while but they grew apart. Each of them considered each other equal in skill.

Quite.

Although he still takes the majority here because of physical superiority and ranged weaponry.

In my thread she'd win the majority. Because she's more skilled.

Originally posted by Draco69
Shiva's never lost to Batman legititmately. Except in Batman/Superman. Where Batman managed to deflect a charging Captain Marvel with a swivel kick...

The first time they fought Robin helped with a gas grenade.

Actually the first time they fought Batman dodged her attacks easily as Shiva tested Bruce. Unless your speaking of a different issue?

The second time they fought Batman nearly managed to defeat her but Shiva won in the end.

You might be remembering wrong the second fight Shiva used nun-chucks and Batman disarmed her and held his own then Robin interferred and struck Shiva from behind.

People are REALLY underestimating Lady Shiva's skill. She's on par or nearly on par with Richard Dragon. She's beaten Bronze Tiger...the same Bronze Tiger who's beaten Batman easily in their first encounter and nearly beat Batman again if not for Superman's intervention. Bronze Tiger also trained Richard Dragon...

Bronze Tiger did defeat Batman but Bats stalemated him in the second and third fight. Superman didn't really save Batman as they were at a stalemate IIRC 2 hits for Bats and 2 hits for BT.


Batgirl beat Shiva because of two reasons:

A) Batgirl mindf*cked her by realizing Shiva had a death-wish thus making Shiva attack irrationally.

B) It was implied the second time that Shiva lost on purpose as she was her mother and wanted to see Batgirl surpass her.

It was also implied that Batgirl wanted to lose the first fight thats why Shiva healed her as well. They fought a third time and BG won it anyways.


To imply that Captain America is more skilled at MA than Shiva would imply that he's better or at least as good as Richard Dragon or Cassandra Cain in MA.

And that's simply not true.

He's stronger but speed is up in the air since Shiva is a bullet-timer and she can keep up with Batgirl.

This is a impressive feat Daredevil and many marvel street level charcters have such feats. Batman has also kept up with Shiva and BG as well.

And sometimes, strength isn't all that's cracked up to be:

http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/2659/shivacroc1zd6.png

Captain America can win but not due to skill. He can win due to his superior strength and endurance and his 3-foot wide shield.

However he's going to work very, very, very hard for it. Simply because Shiva specializes in one-hit kills. Meaning a single strike from Shiva (even if it's glancing) can kill Cap if he's not careful.

But Cap isn't as skilled in MA as Shiva. That's simply not true...

As a MA your probably right as a better fighter I give it too Cap. I agree Cap will struggle but in the end I give it too him.

Even without the SSS Cap has defeated tough opponents like Crossbones(who gave him problems with the SSS)

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Captain America is better then Shiva in every way, including combat skill.


ummmm no. i gotta disagree with u on that one. Captain America is just about better than Shiva in every way, except combat skill. shes trained her whole life and has that body language reading stuff that gives her an edge over anyone like Batgirl does. Shiva>Batgirl>Batman>Cap, in h2h fighting skill. now, because Steve may have some enhanced physical attributes, he would take this fight, plus he has his shield.

Capt 6/10

When did this thread ask who the better Martial Artist was? Captain America isnt really a Martial Arts fighter, but he is the best in H2H if you can understand that. I'm not going any further, he beats Shiva everytime.

Also, Batman is not a better H2H fighter than Cap.

On Combat skill if you mean Shiva's a better fighter because she knows more named techniques then "Yes" she's the better MA.

But if you mean Shiva's a better fighter in hand to hand in the chess game of fighting and effective fighting the this I disagree. Considering her 3 fights with Batman and 3 with Batgirl and sadly the Prom fight.

Considering Cap's mind is enhanced for learning many martial arts plus all his experience. Then add the tons of decades of exp he recieved from the time-reboots of Korvac. Then well you got a guy who knows how to fight. Shiva is the better MartialArtist, Cap is the better Fighter.


Captain America may not know the vibrating palm strike or Leopard blow. His strikes are more then dangerous, even without the SSS he defeated a monster of a fighter in Crossbones(and CrossBones has given him problems with the SSS to boot)

And in a non-peak-human weaker/dying body, Cap easily paralyzed Giant-Man with pressure-points and put down easily the Superhuman Yellow-Jacket.

So his no named MA moves are just as dangerous if not more so. And those are feats without the SSS.

Originally posted by Draco69


Captain is a natural at fighting. But Shiva was born to fight and she simply knows more MA skills and techniques than he does.

Plus the fact that she possesses the same "body-reading" ability that Batgirl enables her to read Cap's every move as well as copy it.

Cap's a good fighter but he's not an MA like Shiva or Richard Dragon or Shang Chi...

And if you think about it, Cap's had what a couple of years in WWII to learn some MAs and few years as an Avenger to do the same?

Where in the world did he find the time to learn every MA style there is?



Originally posted by braz
ummmm no. i gotta disagree with u on that one. Captain America is just about better than Shiva in every way, except combat skill. shes trained her whole life and has that body language reading stuff that gives her an edge over anyone like Batgirl does. Shiva>Batgirl>Batman>Cap, in h2h fighting skill. now, because Steve may have some enhanced physical attributes, he would take this fight, plus he has his shield.

Capt 6/10


God I hate these arguments, "Man this person known every fighting style so they are more skilled blah blah blah"

Let me ask you two something, lets say, 2 people had to kill each other. They are on an open field, no obstructions, and start 5000meters apart. Person A has been trained in many different types of guns, ranging from pistols to rifles to grenade launchers, any type of hand held firearm you can think of. Person B has been trained on 3 guns, the M-9, M-16 and the Sniper rifle. Both are excellent shots (equals) and get to choose any weapon they want at the start of battle.

Who do you think wins, and logical person would say 50/50 right!!?? They both pick sniper rifles and is a toss up right!!?

Now heres the kicker....Person B has enhanced senses, can see farther, can see things in slower motion, can feel atmosphere disturbance's, can hear better, etc, etc etc.

Now who is favored!!???

My point is, Just because you know more about shoting guns, doesn't make you a better at shoting guns, or in this case fighting.

Hell, batman knows every fighting style right!!?? how does he ever lose in H2H!!??

Knowing more is overrated, Don't get me wrong, it helps, but being more efficient in all your movements and the things you do know is what matters. Of course, there aren't too many better at this then cap.

And having peak everything doesn't hurt either.

all im saying is Shiva is the better martial artist and that she is more skilled, because that one guy said Cap was better than her in everything including combat skill, which is not true. Cap still wins though because of other obvious reasons.

here is where in depth knowledge kicks in

Shiva can through her ears and eyes perceive with clarity what Cap is doing and what he's going to do next and then follow up with.

she knows, without thinking, or effort shiva knows.

blindfolded and wearing headphones on high volume Shiva still thumps Cap. Her mastery of the Mental and Healing arts allows her to see the world in chi, allows Shiva to sense the innermost intentions of every pulse in proximity. Not even Deathstroke slinking up behind Shiva in a cloaked vibranium costume has a prayer. not even Batman.

forget Superman/Batman Public Enemies Shiva was mentally resisting Gorrilla Grod enhanced with cybernetics

Shiva is an Even Better Healer than Fighter, strange but true. The Question provides this startling revelation in his own title.

Cap owns shiva in evry way.

that's like sayin beast owns reed richards in every way.

Originally posted by don't shiv
that's like sayin beast owns reed richards in every way.

It's nothing like that.

yes it is. its the perfect analogy

No it isn't.

Shiva is very skilled and stuff she knows a lotta ninja kung-fu stuff and sh*t ....So she'll probaly know with witch techniek Cap beat her into the hospital

Cap's body is in top condition + he knows a lot of kung-fu to + is a lot longer in the superhero/villain branch than Shiva so he has more expirience

He's definitly gonna have a hard time defeating Shiva but after a long hard fight he'll take the b*tch down

Wha? Not even Deathstroke has a prair in cloaked vibranium and not even Batman. This sounds like more opinion and not what has been shown in the pages of accurate continuity.

Shiva's a great martial artist but she has never defeated Batman in her three fights that she has had with him. She beat BG once and BG beat her back twice.


Saying Shiva can see the world in chi and not even Deathstroke has a prayer and not even Batman is as about as accurate for someone to say because Daredevil can hear all muscles twitching to the very shifts in the air and because of so..... Captain America or Ironfist don't stand a chance. Its far from accurate.

Your Shiva is not the one seen in the books.

She has Batgirl's body-reading ability. She more than willing to kill. and she has much more experience than Cap. See she's been fighting all her life whilst Cap only started fighting during WWII then got frozen and woke up and was with the Avengers for a while. I say Shiva wins but it'll be a big fight due to SSS.

Cap has his own unique anticipation combat. Cap as a soilder knows when he has to kill and when he doesn't. Plus its not his first time fighting someone who kills.


More experience probably not for Shiva, though your are right and Cap did indeed get frozen. But in the years of WW2 thats all Cap did in learning, fighting, and sleeping. Probably not always in that order.

Even currently after suspended animation he picked up were he left off to the point that Rogers even recieved decades of experience thanks to the time-reboots of Korvac.

Yes but i doubt that he'll be able to combat someone who'd read his movements so well. He might as well be an open book that reading itself to her. She's also a proven bullettimer. So speed being his is very much so debatable. She is more skilled. She spent her whole life studying fighting and killing teachers of many fighting fdrms. So i feel she wins. it'll be a fight because of the fact that he has superior strength and endurance due to the SSS.

Shiva is the better martial artist. Rogers is the better fighter. There IS, in fact, a distinction.

CAPT'S MIND IS NOT ENCHANCED AT ALL

no he's not the better fighter. she's the better fighter.

Originally posted by capt it up
CAPT'S MIND IS NOT ENCHANCED AT ALL

Well, yes and no.

You see, capt said himself he sees things slower, which why he can track and Dodge bullets.

Eyesight is only half of dodging, thinking to do so is the other.

Obviously, his brain must think slightly faster then your normal human to perceive and process the information through is brain fast enough to know which way to Dodge.

Maybe I'm pushing. But i was actually on the john reading a BP comic in thought about this the other day, people who move at beyond human, or superhuman speeds, have to process that information faster.

For instance, go run as fast as you can, I mean all out, how well do your perceive your surroundings!!? I'm sure not as good as you if you were standing still. Cap moves faster then you, and is still able to dodge multiple bullets and attack various foes.

Cap has to be processing information faster then normal humans to do the stuff he does, goes for most other people who posses some degree of superhuman speed.

Just a thought I was having the other day, not concrete.

Originally posted by Superherovandal
no he's not the better fighter. she's the better fighter.

explain pls!?

Oh and before you do, ask yourself if you knew what Soljer meant when he said, "Martial Artist" and "Fighter"!

Originally posted by Apolloknight
explain pls!?

Oh and before you do, ask yourself if you knew what Soljer meant when he said, "Martial Artist" and "Fighter"!

Captain America wins this.

the debate over who knows more martial arts styles is moot. Cap has his own style, but he's met and defeated practitioners of every single martial arts discipline known in the MU including those with unique styles and is STILL widely considered to be one of if not THE best fighters in 616.

Shiva's ability to read moves won't really help her. Thanks to the SSS, Cap is faster, and gave spider man, a super speed precognitive, HUGE problems during Civil War. Is shiva faster and better at dodging moves than spider man? hell no.

Cap has the strength edge. Cap has the speed edge, cap's reflexes and senses are flat out better. On top of that, thanks to the SSS, Cap won't tire at all during the fight since his body doesn't produce fatigue poisons. Even if every other stat was equal, (Which is isn't) shiva would wear down long before Cap thanks to this
alone.

Cap wins the majority.

don't even bother using the civil war fight as a gauge. Spidey didn't really want to fight Cap at all. He was doing a Deadpool with Cat thing with him. Spidey could have owned Cap with no problem he's beaten worse when he was still a teenager. and faster than Shiva doubtful when she dodges bullets at point-blank range easily without the need of a shield.

Originally posted by Superherovandal
don't even bother using the civil war fight as a gauge. Spidey didn't really want to fight Cap at all. He was doing a Deadpool with Cat thing with him. Spidey could have owned Cap with no problem he's beaten worse when he was still a teenager. and faster than Shiva doubtful when she dodges bullets at point-blank range easily without the need of a shield.

no, faster than shiva is fact. The SSS enhances speed and reflexes to it's highest point possible without being superhuman. Cap has run a mile in one minute flat. Shiva is not faster than cap is.

dodging bullets isn't much of a feat. Wolverine, Daredevil, batman, etc do this all the time.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
no, faster than shiva is fact. The SSS enhances speed and reflexes to it's highest point possible without being superhuman. Cap has run a mile in one minute flat. Shiva is not faster than cap is.

dodging bullets isn't much of a feat. Wolverine, Daredevil, batman, etc do this all the time.
ya but wolverine is super human the other are not

Originally posted by capt it up
ya but wolverine is super human the other are not

superspeed is not among wolverine's attributes. in that regard, he's at best peak human.

but at point-blank range. meaning feet away from her. and she does it without any effort.

Originally posted by Superherovandal
but at point-blank range. meaning feet away from her. and she does it without any effort.

Capt done that as well. has shiva ever been stated as seeing the bullets in slow motion?

Originally posted by Superherovandal
but at point-blank range. meaning feet away from her. and she does it without any effort.

Honestly, its not a big deal, so many streetlevers do it now and days the bulletdogding feats are getting less and less impressive.

Cap has dodged lasers in zero g.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
superspeed is not among wolverine's attributes. in that regard, he's at best peak human.
speed wise he in the same class as spiderman


combat speed is different from running speed and in that reguard he is clearly superhuman. He ahs moved so fats people can not even see him moving

Originally posted by Badabing
Cap has dodged lasers in zero g.

that's impossiable if it happen then any one of capt weight or heavier could do the same

Originally posted by capt it up
speed wise he in the same class as spiderman


combat speed is different from running speed and in that reguard he is clearly superhuman. He ahs moved so fats people can not even see him moving

Your out of your mind if you think Wolverines in Spidermans leauge of speed.

But thats another debate and we should keep it out of this Thread.

Originally posted by capt it up
that's impossiable if it happen then any one of capt weight or heavier could do the same
It's comics so go figure.

Originally posted by Apolloknight
Your out of your mind if you think Wolverines in Spidermans leauge of speed.

But thats another debate and we should keep it out of this Thread.
ya I am out of my mind ecpt for the fact spiderman does not have a single superior feat

Originally posted by Badabing
It's comics so go figure.
still if capt was able to do it then that would mean his ability to move would be like it is on earth which makes that feat not very impressive

Originally posted by Apolloknight
Honestly, its not a big deal, so many streetlevers do it now and days the bulletdogding feats are getting less and less impressive.

That's what I was trying to say. every street leveler has done the same at some point or another by now.

the difference is that Captain america by definition is faster than anyone NOT classified as superhuman in terms of speed. Shiva, while a good martial artist isn't in this class.

Cap is flat out faster. there's no argument here. he's also stronger, and has a MASSIVE advantage in terms of endurance. Cap can go for far longer at peak output and that's fact.

Shiva might get a couple wins here and there but Cap has the clear edge.

Originally posted by capt it up
still if capt was able to do it then that would mean his ability to move would be like it is on earth which makes that feat not very impressive
I never stated an opinion of the feat but just presented the feat.

Originally posted by Badabing
I never stated an opinion of the feat but just presented the feat.
true jsut a lot of capt fanboy hold on to the feat for dear life such as alfhim( how ever he spells it)

Shiva would take it. Take a look at what Moon Dragon did to Capt A.

Originally posted by capt it up
true jsut a lot of capt fanboy hold on to the feat for dear life such as alfhim( how ever he spells it)
I know. I was just messing with you and that's why I posted the feat.

Originally posted by blackwarrior
Shiva would take it. Take a look at what Moon Dragon did to Capt A.

did you read your own scan? The super soldier serum was wearing out/had worn out in that fight. it's not valid.

Originally posted by Space M ummy


did you read your own scan? The super soldier serum was wearing out/had worn out in that fight. it's not valid.

You beat me too it, I was just going to say that, Blackwarrior you tooled yourself.

Originally posted by capt it up
speed wise he in the same class as spiderman


combat speed is different from running speed and in that reguard he is clearly superhuman. He ahs moved so fats people can not even see him moving

1. Wolverine isn't in this thread. Captain America and Shiva are. Please keep it on topic.

2. Captain America has moved so fast people couldn't track him. Hundreds of times. Quite literally.

Originally posted by Soljer
1. Wolverine isn't in this thread. Captain America and Shiva are. Please keep it on topic.

2. Captain America has moved so fast people couldn't track him. Hundreds of times. Quite literally.

aaaannnd I think that about wraps it up for this thread

Actually I was just trying to show that his fighting skills are not
quite as awesome as some believe.

Originally posted by blackwarrior
Actually I was just trying to show that his fighting skills are not
quite as awesome as some believe.

it's a bad scan to try and do that. At that point cap's body was degenerating and breaking down as a result of the serum wearing off. He was weakened quite a bit, and even though he still KNOWS quite a bit of martial arts, his body simply couldnt keep up.

the loss of the serum isn't simply a "powering down", rogers needs it to survive due to his age.

Originally posted by blackwarrior
Actually I was just trying to show that his fighting skills are not
quite as awesome as some believe.

.....

Batroc disagrees.

As does Iron Fist.

Just for starters.

Originally posted by Soljer
2. Captain America has moved so fast people couldn't track him. Hundreds of times. Quite literally.

That sounds above peak human to me.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
That sounds above peak human to me.

Go to the Cap vs. Spiderman thread. Apolloknight and Daredevil nailed it.

But yes, Cap's moved faster than people could follow quite a few times. Peak Human? Enhanced Human? Low level superhuman? They are all too close to adequately distinguish.

Originally posted by Soljer
Go to the Cap vs. Spiderman thread. Apolloknight and Daredevil nailed it.

But yes, Cap's moved faster than people could follow quite a few times. Peak Human? Enhanced Human? Low level superhuman? They are all too close to adequately distinguish.

Yeah, "peak human" is a little broad- cap's abilities are somewhere above what an UN-enhanced human can hit, but below superhuman. He's done feats that really should be beyond him dozens of times.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
Yeah, "peak human" is a little broad- cap's abilities are somewhere above what an UN-enhanced human can hit, but below superhuman. He's done feats that really should be beyond him dozens of times.

Jumping out of a window, dodging bullets, and landing/surfing on a jet seemed pretty Superhuman to me, .

Originally posted by Soljer
1. Wolverine isn't in this thread. Captain America and Shiva are. Please keep it on topic.

2. Captain America has moved so fast people couldn't track him. Hundreds of times. Quite literally.
I was on topic till some one brought wolverine up as if he was a peakhuman which he not.



Capt has moved fast enough for people not to see him? I never recalled that ever happening. How ever in terms of speed he at least lady shiva equal if nto superior

Originally posted by braz
ummmm no. i gotta disagree with u on that one. Captain America is just about better than Shiva in every way, except combat skill. shes trained her whole life and has that body language reading stuff that gives her an edge over anyone like Batgirl does. Shiva>Batgirl>Batman>Cap, in h2h fighting skill. now, because Steve may have some enhanced physical attributes, he would take this fight, plus he has his shield.

Capt 6/10

The only part of that that is true is that Shiva and Batgirl are more skilled then Batman. Captain America, on the other hand, is more skilled then all three. He is one of three (four if you count Dragonfly... and five if we assume Moving Shadow has the same training as Shang Chi) people in Marvel who have been stated, on panel, to have Mastered every known form of combat. Captain America is more skilled then any street based fighter in DC, hands down, no ifs ands or buts. Shiva or Richard Dragon, the two top dogs, are mirror images of Shang Chi in the skill department and Captain America is more skilled then Chi.


EDIT: And I'm a Canadian! Saying I don't relate with Captain America is an understatement... hell, I barely like the guy - where as Batman is in my top five favourite characters (he is fourth... right above Elijah Snow) - but Marvel's high tier streets are just better then (most of) DCs.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The only part of that that is true is that Shiva and Batgirl are more skilled then Batman. Captain America, on the other hand, is more skilled then all three. He is one of three (four if you count Dragonfly... and five if we assume Moving Shadow has the same training as Shang Chi) people in Marvel who have been stated, on panel, to have Mastered every known form of combat. Captain America is more skilled then any street based fighter in DC, hands down, no ifs ands or buts. Shiva or Richard Dragon, the two top dogs, are mirror images of Shang Chi in the skill department and Captain America is more skilled then Chi.



It's been stated on panel as well that Shiva, Batgirl and Batman have managed every known form of combat. On Earth anyway....

And Cap isn't more skilled than Shang Chi....

No?

How about being surrounded by over a dozen armed men who have their guns TRAINED on him, only to have him jump at least thirty feet into the air so quickly that they don't even realize he's moved?

How's that sound? .

EDIT: As far as Chi being a better fighter than Captain America;

http://img409.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ct1os6.jpg

Originally posted by Draco69


It's been stated on panel as well that Shiva, Batgirl and Batman have managed every known form of combat. On Earth anyway....

Captain America isn't better than Shiva in MA. Or Richard Dragon. Or Batman.

You're probably the first person who's ever stated such....

And Cap isn't more skilled than Shang Chi....

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
The only part of that that is true is that Shiva and Batgirl are more skilled then Batman. Captain America, on the other hand, is more skilled then all three. He is one of three (four if you count Dragonfly... and five if we assume Moving Shadow has the same training as Shang Chi) people in Marvel who have been stated, on panel, to have Mastered every known form of combat. Captain America is more skilled then any street based fighter in DC, hands down, no ifs ands or buts. Shiva or Richard Dragon, the two top dogs, are mirror images of Shang Chi in the skill department and Captain America is more skilled then Chi.

EDIT: And I'm a Canadian! Saying I don't relate with Captain America is an understatement... hell, I barely like the guy - where as Batman is in my top five favourite characters (he is fourth... right above Elijah Snow) - but Marvel's high tier streets are just better then (most of) DCs. So Captain America is the most skilled h2h fighter in both Marvel and DC comics? And of course by corollary since you believe Wolverine to be equivalent to Captain America, Wolverine also shares the position of being most skilled in both comic universes.

Sorry not buying it. Hyperbole is not a superpower. 131

Originally posted by Draco69


It's been stated on panel as well that Shiva, Batgirl and Batman have managed every known form of combat. On Earth anyway....

And Cap isn't more skilled than Shang Chi....



If you can find a scan, or provide an issue number, where it is stated Batman/Shiva/Cass or even Dragon or Turner have mastered every martial art, please do. As is I'm pretty sure they closest to that is the number 127... which isn't the same thing.

Yes he is, Zaran said so himself.

Originally posted by Soljer
No?

How about being surrounded by over a dozen armed men who have their guns TRAINED on him, only to have him jump at least thirty feet into the air so quickly that they don't even realize he's moved?

How's that sound? .

That's speed. And strength. Due to his peak human stats.

But that doesn't indicate MA skills better than friggin' Richard Dragon...

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
So Captain America is the most skilled h2h fighter in both Marvel and DC comics? And of course by corollary since you believe Wolverine to be equivalent to Captain America, Wolverine also shares the position of being most skilled in both comic universes.

Sorry not buying it. Hyperbole is not a superpower. 131

*whispers*

I... I think maybe Cap more skilled then Wolverine.

But IMO the top three in Marvel are Cap, Wolverine and Elektra, all being pretty close to equal.... and all better then any DC streets.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
*whispers*

I... I think maybe Cap more skilled then Wolverine.

But IMO the top three in Marvel are Cap, Wolverine and Elektra, all being pretty close to equal.... and all better then any DC streets. Does the Marvel Universe have more Martial Arts power that I'm unaware of in the same way that DC Comics has more Chaos Magic?

Originally posted by Draco69
That's speed. And strength. Due to his peak human stats.

But that doesn't indicate MA skills better than friggin' Richard Dragon...



I wasn't talking about skill, that part of my post was supposed to be in response to Capt it up's claim that Rogers hadn't ever moved faster than the human eye.

.....Wow so much Capt Wank.

He wins,but due to enhanced physical abilities,not skill.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
.....Wow so much Capt Wank.

He wins,but due to enhanced physical abilities,not skill.

I pretty much agree; I see Captain America and Batman as fairly comparable in skill. I see Shiva and Batman as fairly comparable in skill. I see Cass and Batman as fairly comparable in skill....

They are all on about the same level.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Does the Marvel Universe have more Martial Arts power that I'm unaware of in the same way that DC Comics has more Chaos Magic?

No, just better Martial Artists.

One them is bound to be superior to the other, it just happens to be marvel in this case. The difference between Cap and Shiva isn't that great, it's about the same as the difference between Shiva and Bat, but even though it isn't a huge gab, it is a gab none the less. Not sure what everyone is getting worked up about.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
If you can find a scan, or provide an issue number, where it is stated Batman/Shiva/Cass or even Dragon or Turner have mastered every martial art, please do. As is I'm pretty sure they closest to that is the number 127... which isn't the same thing.

I don't have the exact scan. But you can find Batman's here:

http://members.tripod.com/agent0x7/dkskill1.html

It also has references to Shiva and Dragon.




Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Yes he is, Zaran said so himself.

Whoopee. Zaran's comment on Captain's skills is just hyperbole.



Tell me this: When did Captain America EVER have the time to study EVERY form of combat? Who taught him? When did he learn? How did he learn?

He got the serum. Got some training. Fought in WWII. Got frozen. Got Revived. Joined the Avengers.

Where's the training?

I'm sorry but saying Captain America possesses more martial arts knowledge and skills than Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Iron Fist, Shang Chi and Cassandra Cain with the evidence of the heresey of one supervillain is just ludicrious.

Not one forum on the internet would attest to your opinion.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
.....Wow so much Capt Wank.

He wins,but due to enhanced physical abilities,not skill.

I know.

Captain America better at MA than friggin' Shang Chi and Richard Dragon?!

:vomit:

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
No, just better Martial Artists.

One them is bound to be superior to the other, it just happens to be marvel in this case. The difference between Cap and Shiva isn't that great, it's about the same as the difference between Shiva and Bat, but even though it isn't a huge gab, it is a gab none the less. Not sure what everyone is getting worked up about.

....In a contest of pure Skill,Richard Dragon or Bronze Tiger would take Cap.Make them physically equal and Captain would lose.Soljer one of the main Crusaders of cap in this thread Says Cap is equal to Shiva/Batman and Richard and Tiger are both above them.

Hell in those circumstances constantine Drakon could do it,This beleif that marvel has te best martial artists is slightly mired by Karate Kids existence..

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
No, just better Martial Artists.

One them is bound to be superior to the other, it just happens to be marvel in this case. Basis? 131

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
No, just better Martial Artists.

Not really. They're even. However DC martial artists rarely have the spotlight due to two reasons:

A) Batman. Everyone jobs to him.

B) Superman and the rest of the pack.

Marvel puts far more focus on street-levelers and plainly enhance their abilities beyond human levels to make them appear better.

However DC prefers to make their MAs as "realistic" as possible.

You just don't have alot of knowledge of their MAs. With many obscure characters that rarely get the spotlight like Judomaster, Shado, O-Sensei, Kirigi, etc.

However if we were plainly to go on feats rather than character history than Marvel wins because DC rarely gives their street-levelers any chance to shine.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
One them is bound to be superior to the other, it just happens to be marvel in this case. The difference between Cap and Shiva isn't that great, it's about the same as the difference between Shiva and Bat, but even though it isn't a huge gab, it is a gab none the less. Not sure what everyone is getting worked up about.

You clearly stated that Captain America was a better MA than Shiva, Richard Dragon and Shang Chi.



It's simply not true.

It's like me saying that Namor is stronger than Thor, Superman and Captain Marvel.

He's up there....but not UP there.

Originally posted by Draco69
I don't have the exact scan. But you can find Batman's here:

http://members.tripod.com/agent0x7/dkskill1.html

It also has references to Shiva and Dragon.






Whoopee. Zaran's comment on Captain's skills is just hyperbole.



Tell me this: When did Captain America EVER have the time to study EVERY form of combat? Who taught him? When did he learn? How did he learn?

He got the serum. Got some training. Fought in WWII. Got frozen. Got Revived. Joined the Avengers.

Where's the training?

I'm sorry but saying Captain America possesses more martial arts knowledge and skills than Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Iron Fist, Shang Chi and Cassandra Cain with the evidence of the heresey of one supervillain is just ludicrious.

Not one forum on the internet would attest to your opinion.


I assume most of the training, like all MU fighters, occurs off panel.

so it may be more like-

got the serum. received extensive training as the only successful recipient of the super soldier project. continued training through combat operations during world war II. got frozen. got revived. joined the avengers. Continued extensive training, while participating in life or death combat vs. every other serious practitioner of the martial arts including but not limited to batroc, iron fist, shang chi, taskmaster, elektra, etc.

you make it sound like he just sat on his ass after getting the serum, which is silly.

when did batman have the time to master 120=whatever forms of martial arts? he's only about 30.

this is comics. it doesn't matter "when" it occurred, the only thing that matters is that it's been established by the writers that it's the case.

Originally posted by Draco69
I don't have the exact scan. But you can find Batman's here:

http://members.tripod.com/agent0x7/dkskill1.html

It also has references to Shiva and Dragon.


I don't need examples of Batman being skilled, I know Batman is skilled, I've been reading his book for as long as I can remember. What I need is on panel proof that Batman knows every earth based fighting style... which I didn't see on that page. Now, admittedly, I only read the captions describing the scans and not the scans, but read anything close to "Batman knows every fighting style"

Originally posted by Draco69
Whoopee. Zaran's comment on Captain's skills is just hyperbole.


You only think it is a hyperbole because you don't agree with it. Zaran was looking to regain reputation that was destroyed by Shang Chi, he realised he had to defeat someone more skilled then Chi, and he set out to beat Captain America. Why would he make a hyperbole in that situation? Exaggeration wasn't going to him get his reputation back.

Originally posted by Draco69
Tell me this: When did Captain America EVER have the time to study EVERY form of combat? Who taught him? When did he learn? How did he learn?

He got the serum. Got some training. Fought in WWII. Got frozen. Got Revived. Joined the Avengers.

Where's the training?

I'm sorry but saying Captain America possesses more martial arts knowledge and skills than Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Iron Fist, Shang Chi and Cassandra Cain with the evidence of the heresey of one supervillain is just ludicrious.

Not one forum on the internet would attest to your opinion.

Captain America's mind is enhanced and he is a natural fighter. How many years would he need to master every martial art? Realistically he could never do it, but this is a comic. Shang Chi had mastered every martial art by his 20s (might have even been late teens), now sure he was trained from birth but Captain America, with his enhanced mind, can learn at much faster rate, and he is virtually tireless. The rate at which he would traverse through fight training would be tremendous... and how is it more of a stretch the 30 something Batman being as skilled as he is?

Captain America is the best fighter in Marvel, and he is better then Shiva, Dragon or Chi.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Captain America is the best fighter in Marvel, and he is better then Shiva, Dragon or Chi. Psst. You forgot to add that by corollary you think Elektra and Wolverine are more skilled Lady Shiva and Richard Dragon, and are likewise the most skilled in all of the Omniverse.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Psst. You forgot to add that by corollary you Elektra and Wolverine are more skilled Lady Shiva and Richard Dragon.

I've said it enough for it to be common knowledge...

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I've said it enough for it to be common knowledge of my personal opinion... Fixed. 313

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Fixed. 313

Well... maybe the Elektra part.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin

Captain America is the best fighter in Marvel, and he is better then Shiva, Dragon or Chi.


Bullshit,plain and simple.

Captain America is in no way superior to them when it comes to skill,Those three are top street-levellers due to their Skill,Cap is Due to enhancements and Skill.You wanna know why that guy went after Captain America?because he's Captain f*cking America,one of the best known heroes,beat him and your set for life.

Dragon is in a class all of his own when it comes to MA.Captain America is Batman level in skill,but he doesn't touch on Dragon,no way no how.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
I assume most of the training, like all MU fighters, occurs off panel.

When? When a master martial artist gets training usually they spent YEARS and YEARS getting training.

We usually see the typical "Ryu walking scene" where said MA travels around the world learning under many different teachers and coming back home finally after a decade with a beard or a new hairdo.

Cap?

He didn't get this treatment. Nor did he simply have the time.

so it may be more like-

Originally posted by Space M ummy
got the serum. received extensive training as the only successful recipient of the super soldier project. continued training through combat operations during world war II.

Received training. By who? How long? There WAS a war going on. I mean, I don't think the guy had the time to travel to China to train under stick.

How long did WWII last? About 6 years. And that's not including when America got involved. Which makes his training time even less.

Cap got the serum AFTER Pearl Harbor. And he didn't have any MA training up to that point. So from 1941 to roughly 1945, he had training and he fought in WWII.

I guess Wildcat must be a master MA too!

So let's look at the facts:

Cap had time to master EVERY form of combat in less than four years?

WHILE leading the Invaders in WWII?

WHILE fighting a war?



Originally posted by Space M ummy
got frozen. got revived. joined the avengers. Continued extensive training, while participating in life or death combat vs. every other serious practitioner of the martial arts including but not limited to batroc, iron fist, shang chi, taskmaster, elektra, etc.


That's nice. It's not really different from any other superhero career though...



Minus the frozen part...

Originally posted by Space M ummy
you make it sound like he just sat on his ass after getting the serum, which is silly.


No, I'm saying he had about four years to train during WWII...on top of fighting the said war and leading the Invaders.

Not alot of time to devote to MAs....

Originally posted by Space M ummy
when did batman have the time to master 120=whatever forms of martial arts? he's only about 30.

Actually he's pushing 40...or 60 if you count the Lazarus Pit occasion.

Batman's actually around 60 years old in reality.

He's devoted about 20 years to training.

Certainly not belivable. But a hell of a lot better than four years during a flippin World War...


Originally posted by Space M ummy
this is comics. it doesn't matter "when" it occurred, the only thing that matters is that it's been established by the writers that it's the case.

We also use logic. Shiva's been doing MAs since BIRTH.

If

Shiva > Batman

and

Shang Chi = Shiva

then

Shang Chi > Batman

Now

Wolverine > Shang Chi

and

Wolverine = Captain America (more or less)

so...

Captain America > Shang Chi

and

Captian America > Dragon/Shiva/Turner



But seriously though, I know a lot of people feel compelled to throw Batman a bone and say he is as skilled or more skilled the Captain America... but why? There is nothing to suggest that Batman is on the same level as Captain America. Captain America is number one in marvel, many MAS have said as much... where as Batman is lucky to make the top five in DC. Why are these people better then Captain America, a guy who has been said to be the best and who has been said to have mastered every known fighting style? Why? It makes no sense. The only reason being that people are desperately trying to grasp on to the notion that Batman = Captain America... which is base on nothing.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I don't need examples of Batman being skilled, I know Batman is skilled, I've been reading his book for as long as I can remember. What I need is on panel proof that Batman knows every earth based fighting style... which I didn't see on that page. Now, admittedly, I only read the captions describing the scans and not the scans, but read anything close to "Batman knows every fighting style"

Look harder...





Originally posted by srankmissingnin
You only think it is a hyperbole because you don't agree with it. Zaran was looking to regain reputation that was destroyed by Shang Chi, he realised he had to defeat someone more skilled then Chi, and he set out to beat Captain America. Why would he make a hyperbole in that situation? Exaggeration wasn't going to him get his reputation back.

It is hyperbole. And the only proof you have that Cap learned every form of martial arts there is.

Batman's said the same thing about David Cain.

Shado said the same thing about Green Arrow.

Shrike said the same thing about Nightwing.

And around it goes.

If I had a dime for everytime an opponent has said:

"Good lord! He's the toughest opponent I've ever fought!"

or

"He's a master martial artist!"

It's character opinion. So what?

Your example is pretty much hearsey. A villain inclined to his own personal bias.



Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Captain America's mind is enhanced and he is a natural fighter. How many years would he need to master every martial art? Realistically he could never do it, but this is a comic. Shang Chi had mastered every martial art by his 20s (might have even been late teens), now sure he was trained from birth but Captain America, with his enhanced mind, can learn at much faster rate, and he is virtually tireless. The rate at which he would traverse through fight training would be tremendous... and how is it more of a stretch the 30 something Batman being as skilled as he is?

Enhanced mind? They bumped up his IQ a bit. That's all.



Batman's a friggin genius. You're saying that Batman's genius plus 20 odd years of training makes him INFERIOR to Captain America's non-genius mind and oh about four years of training during WWII and whatever time he could spare when he wasn't training?



Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Captain America is the best fighter in Marvel, and he is better then Shiva, Dragon or Chi.

Cap isn't the best fighter in Marvel.....




And he isn't better than Shiva, Dragon or Chi in MAs.

Dear god.

Originally posted by Draco69
When? When a master martial artist gets training usually they spent YEARS and YEARS getting training.

We usually see the typical "Ryu walking scene" where said MA travels around the world learning under many different teachers and coming back home finally after a decade with a beard or a new hairdo.

Cap?

He didn't get this treatment. Nor did he simply have the time.

so it may be more like-



Received training. By who? How long? There WAS a war going on. I mean, I don't think the guy had the time to travel to China to train under stick.

How long did WWII last? About 6 years. And that's not including when America got involved. Which makes his training time even less.

Cap got the serum AFTER Pearl Harbor. And he didn't have any MA training up to that point. So from 1941 to roughly 1945, he had training and he fought in WWII.

I guess Wildcat must be a master MA too!

So let's look at the facts:

Cap had time to master EVERY form of combat in less than four years?

WHILE leading the Invaders in WWII?

WHILE fighting a war?






That's nice. It's not really different from any other superhero career though...



Minus the frozen part...




No, I'm saying he had about four years to train during WWII...on top of fighting the said war and leading the Invaders.

Not alot of time to devote to MAs....



Actually he's pushing 40...or 60 if you count the Lazarus Pit occasion.

Batman's actually around 60 years old in reality.

He's devoted about 20 years to training.

Certainly not belivable. But a hell of a lot better than four years during a flippin World War...




We also use logic. Shiva's been doing MAs since BIRTH.



yes, there was a war going on, but Captain america was the SOLE recipient of the super soldier project. he wasn't on the front line with the grunts, he was reserved for special missions. I don't think it;s much of a stretch to assume the US government/Shield/whatever trained the only super soldier they had extensively during the 6 or so years they had him.

SO I'm looking at it as any time Cap WASNT deployed in the field on a special mission, they were training his ass off.

Then he's frozen.

It's been established that around a decade or so has passed since Fantastic 4 #1...this is around the time Rogers was brought back out of stasis and joined the avengers.

So that's another ten years of training with the best that the avengers and sheild can provide, WITH his advanced stamina and reflexes, thats a bare minimum of 16 years of comic time cap has been doing nothing but fighting and training. That's EASILY on par with as much training batman has, and Cap can train longer and harder without his body giving out, thanks to the serum.

Someone else mentioned chronological reboots via korvac, but I don't know anything about those.

Batman is not 40-60 years old. he's in his early to mid 30s. How old do you think Dick Grayson is? he's been around almost since the beginning of batman's crime fighting career and he's only in his mid to late 20s.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
If
Shiva > Batman
and
Shang Chi = Shiva
then
Shang Chi > Batman
Now
Wolverine > Shang Chi
and
Wolverine = Captain America (more or less)
so...
Captain America > Shang Chi
and
Captian America > Dragon/Shiva/Turner
Let's face it what you really want to say is:

Wolverine = Captain America = Elektra (more or less)

so...

Wolverine/Elektra > Dragon/Shiva/Turner

I imagine your protestations about Batman could likewise be applied to Wolverine. 131

I just wanted to point out; I've heard the "Captain America didn't have TIME to get that skilled!" argument thrown around so often....

It's a comic book. It's supposed to be unrealistic. If a kid can get super powers from a cancerous spider bite, Captain America can have mastered every martial art on the planet with little to no training. Seriously.

Not to mention the fact that Cap has been shown to learn martial arts at an INSANE rate. He learned an entire alien martial art after watching it being performed once, if I recall correctly.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Let's face it what you really want to say is:

Wolverine = Captain America = Elektra (more or less)

so...

Wolverine/Shiva > Dragon/Shiva/Turner

I imagine your protestations about Batman could likewise be applied to Wolverine. 131

I only used Wolverine in the equation in the first place because people seem to have a problem with a member of Shang Chi's own Rouge gallery saying that Captain America was more skilled then Chi... or at least there is some dispute as to if he was serious or not.

But yeah.

... except for the Wolverine/Shiva part

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
If

Shiva > Batman

and

Shang Chi = Shiva

then

Shang Chi > Batman

Now

Wolverine > Shang Chi

and

Wolverine = Captain America (more or less)

so...

Captain America > Shang Chi

and

Captian America > Dragon/Shiva/Turner

A) Shang Chi>Captain America

B) The above equation makes no sense at all since Turner nor Dragon were indicted into the equation into the very end.

It's like saying:

A>B

B>C

Therefore

A>Z, L, and M

Even though I never added Z, L and M in the first place.

It don't make no sense...



Originally posted by srankmissingnin
But seriously though, I know a lot of people feel compelled to throw Batman a bone and say he is as skilled or more skilled the Captain America... but why? There is nothing to suggest that Batman is on the same level as Captain America. Captain America is number one in marvel, many MAS have said as much... where as Batman is lucky to make the top five in DC. Why are these people better then Captain America, a guy who has been said to be the best and who has been said to have mastered every known fighting style? Why? It makes no sense. The only reason being that people are desperately trying to grasp on to the notion that Batman = Captain America... which is base on nothing.

According Zaran, right?

Zaran must be a cosmic overseer with omnipotent knowledge am I right?



Most people would agree that Batman is more skilled than Captain America in MA.

You're the ONLY person I've met that made the audacious claim that Captain America is the BEST MA in Marvel and even more suggest that Captain America is better than Shiva, Dragon and Bronze Tiger all together.

It's just not true.

It's really no more different from the Hulk fanboyism rampant on these forums...

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
... except for the Wolverine/Shiva part What Wolverine/Shiva part.
Originally posted by srankmissingnin
I only used Wolverine in the equation in the first place because people seem to have a problem with a member of Shang Chi's own Rouge gallery saying that Captain America was more skilled then Chi... or at least there is some dispute as to if he was serious or not. The lady doth protest too much, methinks. vin

Originally posted by Soljer
I just wanted to point out; I've heard the "Captain America didn't have TIME to get that skilled!" argument thrown around so often....

It's a comic book. It's supposed to be unrealistic. If a kid can get super powers from a cancerous spider bite, Captain America can have mastered every martial art on the planet with little to no training. Seriously.

Not to mention the fact that Cap has been shown to learn martial arts at an INSANE rate. He learned an entire alien martial art after watching it being performed once, if I recall correctly.

So did Batman. He learned the Thangarian martial arts after watching Hawkwoman spar with Shiak.

Though let's use some common freaking sense here people.


Captain America had relatively at the most a decade of training.

And you people are saying that he's better than people who've trained their whole lives with absolutely no interupptions AND became more versed via global travels?

That's just bull.

It's like saying a person who took an online course in Greek History has more knowledge than a person who has a Phd in Greek History from Harvard, a Masters from Oxford, spent his entire life learning Greek History from professional tutors, and timetraveled to Ancient Greece on several occasions.

Chi isn't superior to Captain America. Batroc would know.

Not to mention the fact that Iron Fist, Chi's equal in skill, was straight up TOLD by Captain America "You're good, son, but I'm better."

Originally posted by Draco69

And you people are saying that he's better than people who've trained their whole lives with absolutely no interupptions AND became more versed via global travels?



Yes.

As is Batman. HE had no time to master well over a hundred martial arts, but we accept the fact that he did. It's the same thing. I admit, to a greater extent with Captain America, but the same thing none the less. You are trying to apply 'common sense' because martial skill is something that DOES exist in the real world...

But it doesn't work that way. You have to keep the comic book perspective. Captain America is one of the best fighters on the planet, and he IS in the tier of Wayne/Shiva/Cass/Dragon. Now, I'm not saying he's BETTER than them. But in the same class? Absolutely.

Batman's actually about 38-39 years old. thats near 40. imagine that. he's almost near his mid life crisis...I wonder what DC will come up with for that!!!!

Originally posted by Soljer
Yes.

As is Batman. HE had no time to master well over a hundred martial arts, but we accept the fact that he did. It's the same thing. I admit, to a greater extent with Captain America, but the same thing none the less. You are trying to apply 'common sense' because martial skill is something that DOES exist in the real world...

But it doesn't work that way. You have to keep the comic book perspective. Captain America is one of the best fighters on the planet, and he IS in the tier of Wayne/Shiva/Cass/Dragon. Now, I'm not saying he's BETTER than them. But in the same class? Absolutely. Agreed.

I can use hearsay too!

http://img129.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-29595/loc24/4306b_greatest.jpg


:EEK:

Originally posted by Superherovandal


Batman's actually about 38-39 years old. thats near 40. imagine that. he's almost near his mid life crisis...I wonder what DC will come up with for that!!!!

Well...he's already got the car, and it's not like he's interested in the ladies....

Originally posted by Soljer
Yes.

As is Batman. HE had no time to master well over a hundred martial arts, but we accept the fact that he did. It's the same thing. I admit, to a greater extent with Captain America, but the same thing none the less. You are trying to apply 'common sense' because martial skill is something that DOES exist in the real world...

Which doesn't show who he trained with. Or when he trained. Or how he trained.

Who were his teachers? Where did he train?

I'm all for comicbook perspective...as long as there's a decent explanation for it.

Batman has one. A poor one. But a explanation none the less.

I'm not gonna accept that Cap mastered every form of martial arts during WWII in a bunker camp in less than three years any more than Sentry's 1 million exploding sun crap....

Originally posted by Soljer
But it doesn't work that way. You have to keep the comic book perspective. Captain America is one of the best fighters on the planet, and he IS in the tier of Wayne/Shiva/Cass/Dragon. Now, I'm not saying he's BETTER than them. But in the same class? Absolutely.

Not really. He's close. Until I see Cap pull out nerve strikes that can stop a man's blood flow to his brain or use mystical kung-fu to heal himself...

Originally posted by Draco69
A) Shang Chi>Captain America




Nope.

Originally posted by Draco69
B) The above equation makes no sense at all since Turner nor Dragon were indicted into the equation into the very end.

It don't make no sense...


I removed part of the equation when complications arose about Turner being slightly less skilled then Shiva and Dragon and forgot to edit the other instance where they were mentioned.

But since it seems to have confused you so

Shiva=Dragon=Turner



Originally posted by Draco69
B)According Zaran, right?

Zaran must be a cosmic overseer with omnipotent knowledge am I right?





If only one person is qualified to comment on the level of Shang Chi's skill (and we ignore Fu Manchu) don't you think Zaran might be a good choice? If I bring up Nightwing commenting on Connor and Shiva's fight and insinuating that not only Shiva is a better fighter then Batman but Connor is also, will you cry wolf?

I think Zaran is pretty qualified to on Shang Chi matters that this is a non-issue.


Originally posted by Draco69
Most people would agree that Batman is more skilled than Captain America in MA.

You're the ONLY person I've met that made the audacious claim that Captain America is the BEST MA in Marvel and even more suggest that Captain America is better than Shiva, Dragon and Bronze Tiger all together.

It's just not true.

It's really no more different from the Hulk fanboyism rampant on these forums...

When have the majority of people ever been right?

Captain America is the best street level martial artist. What evidence is their to the contrary? He has been said to have mastered every martial art. He has been said to be better then Shang Chi. I'm pretty sure he has even been out right called the best. Even if you don't like what has been present, at least their is something to what I'm saying other then "Nuh-uh, Shang Chi is better."

Originally posted by Superherovandal


Batman's actually about 38-39 years old. thats near 40. imagine that. he's almost near his mid life crisis...I wonder what DC will come up with for that!!!!

Batman is 60 years old. He was dipped into the Lazarus Pit several times.

He was old enough to remember Alan Scott as Green Lantern fight Icicle BEFORE WWII.


Batman started his Batman career when he was 20. Dick started out as Robin when he was ten or eleven.

Doing the math, and to count that Dick is about 25....

Originally posted by Draco69
So did Batman. He learned the Thangarian martial arts after watching Hawkwoman spar with Shiak.

Though let's use some common freaking sense here people.


Captain America had relatively at the most a decade of training.

He has at least 15 years. trained from 1940-1945, and again from when he was revived to present, which is another decade. Keep in mind that ALL of Captain's training was done by the best that the U.S. could possibly provide from day ONE. If any john doe is trained for a decade and a half by masters of his discipline, whether it be physics, sports, chess, or whatever, he's going to be pretty damn good.



People who are at their absolute oldest in their mid 30s? definitely. Batman didn't begin training until his mid to late teens. how good do you suppose he is again?

I don't know where you're getting "more well versed in global travels" since the leader of the avengers, sole super soldier for the US government and operative of S.H.I.E.L.D. would arguably have some pretty extensive resources and just MIGHT be fairly well traveled.

Originally posted by Draco69
I can use hearsay too!

http://img129.imagevenue.com/aAfkjfp01fo1i-29595/loc24/4306b_greatest.jpg


:EEK:

That was Zaran II... or was it III? Never mind, he was noob and wasn't qualified to make that assessment. Or at least that's my story.

I think that was a brain fart on the part of Jeph Loeb. No way that he's 60. You wanna know why? well the fact is he met Dick in his Year Two comic series. So he was about 26. So Dick would be about 11 or 12. so hes' about 25. so that would be approximately 13 years. So that would make him 39 or maybe 40

I love how People keep saying "He's said to be the best" or " he knows it all"

The same has been said about everything in comics

Heresay doesn't mean shit.But if suddenly it does then,Jonns better than Supes,Robins a better MA than Nightwing,Batman could never beat Red Hood,Morlun hits harder than Hulk,Sentry can destroy a solar system and stalemate Big G,Odin should have been the most powerful being in the Multi-verse and Hulk can supasse eternity in stremgth.

Statem,ents can be a usefeul guidline,but if you use them as evidence,your a retard.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
He has at least 15 years. trained from 1940-1945, and again from when he was revived to present, which is another decade. Keep in mind that ALL of Captain's training was done by the best that the U.S. could possibly provide from day ONE. If any john doe is trained for a decade and a half by masters of his discipline, whether it be physics, sports, chess, or whatever, he's going to be pretty damn good.



People who are at their absolute oldest in their mid 30s? definitely. Batman didn't begin training until his mid to late teens. how good do you suppose he is again?

I don't know where you're getting "more well versed in global travels" since the leader of the avengers, sole super soldier for the US government and operative of S.H.I.E.L.D. would arguably have some pretty extensive resources and just MIGHT be fairly well traveled.
Firstly between 1940-45 he'd be kinda busy fighting Nazi's. He wouldn't have time to learn martial arts. Then he'd come back very tired or even injured. So how would he be studying. and also I doubt that they'd be able to bring martial arts experts to the front or go back home when Nazi's would be firing on them. Also considering for many years Shiva spent her life studying with martial arts masters and then killing them in one on one HtH combat when she learned everything she needed from them I'd say that she'd be way more fight-experienced and better martial arts wise.

Unless there has been a retcon, Shiva didn't become a serious martial artist until after her sister was killed.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin


Nope.



I removed part of the equation when complications arose about Turner being slightly less skilled then Shiva and Dragon and forgot to edit the other instance where they were mentioned.

But since it seems to have confused you so

Shiva=Dragon=Turner






If only one person is qualified to comment on the level of Shang Chi's skill (and we ignore Fu Manchu) don't you think Zaran might be a good choice? If I bring up Nightwing commenting on Connor and Shiva's fight and insinuating that not only Shiva is a better fighter then Batman but Connor is also, will you cry wolf?

I think Zaran is pretty qualified to on Shang Chi matters that this is a non-issue.




When have the majority of people ever been right?

Captain America is the best street level martial artist. What evidence is their to the contrary? He has been said to have mastered every martial art. He has been said to be better then Shang Chi. I'm pretty sure he has even been out right called the best. Even if you don't like what has been present, at least their is something to what I'm saying other then "Nuh-uh, Shang Chi is better." Batman > all those guys.
Your whole theory that he isn't falls through when the truth remains that he's stalemated or defeated all of those DC characters, oftentimes while not going all out at all.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
I love how People keep saying "He's said to be the best" or " he knows it all"

The same has been said about everything in comics

Heresay doesn't mean shit.But if suddenly it does then,Jonns better than Supes,Robins a better MA than Nightwing,Batman could never beat Red Hood,Morlun hits harder than Hulk,Sentry can destroy a solar system and stalemate Big G,Odin should have been the most powerful being in the Multi-verse and Hulk can supasse eternity in stremgth.

Statem,ents can be a usefeul guidline,but if you use them as evidence,your a retard. And Superman is the most powerful character in this timestream.

And Supes Blue? The most powerful in the omniverse.

She still fought more than Steve did. He was too busy being a sickly little boy and asking the US govt for super-steroids in order to be their poster-boy. Also after Shiva was trained by Dragon she'd go around from dojo to dojo and temple to temple learning their fighting style and then killing the head-sensei on her own HTH when she was done.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Unless there has been a retcon, Shiva didn't become a serious martial artist until after her sister was killed.

She and her sister sparred every day and were considered Top-tier Martial Artists by David Cain already,that was a holding back Shiva......Then she got serious.

You do know Cap was handicapped in that fight don't you?

Originally posted by Juntai
Batman > all those guys.
Your whole theory that he isn't falls through when the truth remains that he's stalemated or defeated all of those DC characters, oftentimes while not going all out at all.

Only because he has never had a real fight with any of the top three. He stalemate Dragon because Dragon didn't want to fight Batman... he was barely bothering with him. Hell, in Richard Dragons last run he went as far as calling Batman "a talented amateur". Batman has never beat Shiva in a fair fight, he has won with the help of Robin cold cocking her and her being under the influence of mind control. He has stated that he has never beat her and it has been said and implied many times that he is less skilled then Shiva, so we know what DC's stance on the matter is.

All that is ignoring that unlike Shiva or Dragon, Batman relies on more then just martial skill when he is in a fight. In terms on pure combat skill, he does compare to them.

Originally posted by Superherovandal
Firstly between 1940-45 he'd be kinda busy fighting Nazi's. He wouldn't have time to learn martial arts. Then he'd come back very tired or even injured. So how would he be studying. and also I doubt that they'd be able to bring martial arts experts to the front or go back home when Nazi's would be firing on them. Also considering for many years Shiva spent her life studying with martial arts masters and then killing them in one on one HtH combat when she learned everything she needed from them I'd say that she'd be way more fight-experienced and better martial arts wise.

you're under the impression that cap was a frontline grunt. he wasn't.
from marvel.com:

After the assassination of Dr. Erskine. Roger was re-imagined as a superhero who served both as a counter-intelligence agent and a propaganda symbol to counter Nazi Germany's head of terrorist operations, the Red Skull.

plenty of time for training during WWII, unless you think the US government just put him out there to counter the red skull with no training whatsoever.

Also consider that unlike Batman/Bruce wayne, Cap has no cover identity to maintain. no time spent maintaining wayne enterprises, or keeping up the playboy facade. No time spent pretending to be a photographer like Parker, or a reporter like Kent. His job is the be Captain America 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, from the second he took the super soldier formula.

as for "tired" Captain america's body produces no fatigue poisons, and doesn't tire. He could theoretically train from the time he wakes up to the time he goes to bed at max output all day every day with no side effects. unlike batman and shiva, who can't, as they're only human. Rogers can theoretically make much MORE of the time he has than either of those two.

Exept that the comicbooks tells us it is.
Here's a scan.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/27/CAtransformation.png

Originally posted by Martian_mind
She and her sister sparred every day and were considered Top-tier Martial Artists by David Cain already,that was a holding back Shiva......Then she got serious.

No she wasn't, that's why Cain killed her sister. To motivate her and drive her to perfection, her sister was holding her back.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Only because he has never had a real fight with any of the top three. He stalemate Dragon because Dragon didn't want to fight Batman... he was barely bothering with him. Hell, in Richard Dragons last run he went as far as calling Batman "a talented amateur". Batman has never beat Shiva in a fair fight, he has won with the help of Robin cold cocking her and her being under the influence of mind control. He has stated that he has never beat her and it has been said and implied many times that he is less skilled then Shiva, so we know what DC's stance on the matter is.

All that is ignoring that unlike Shiva or Dragon, Batman relies on more then just martial skill when he is in a fight. In terms on pure combat skill, he does compare to them. Dragon can say all he once, and you make up all the excuses you want, but what I said still holds true. None of those characters have defeated Batman in any circumstance and have at best, stalemated and opted for a different approach. But the same is not true the other way around.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
No she wasn't, that's why Cain killed her sister. To motivate her and drive her to perfection, her sister was holding her back.

Exactly....she was going easy on her sister like i said,and even then she held out against the league of shadows,So she had way more training then Cap has ever had.

Originally posted by Juntai
Dragon can say all he once, and you make up all the excuses you want, but what I said still holds true. None of those characters have defeated Batman in any circumstance.

They've never beat Batman because they've never had an actual fight with him in a fair one on one fight.

Shiva is primarily a Batman foe, the whole premise behind her is that she is a better fighter the Batman.... but that isn't enough for you?

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
They've never beat Batman because they've never had an actual fight with him. Shiva is primarily a Batman foe, the whole premise behind her is that she is a better fighter the Batman.... but that isn't enough for you?

The original Premise behind wolverine was that he was a mutated woverine with claws on his gloves.Intentions change over the years,and just like wolverine has been shown to not be that,Shiva hasn't shown to be a better Ma than Batman.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
The original Premise behind wolverine was that he was a mutated woverine with claws on his gloves.Intentions change over the years,and just like wolverine has been shown to not be that,Shiva hasn't shown to be a better Ma than Batman.

What you mean to say is "Shiva has never beaten Batman" not "She has shown she is a better MA." It's pretty clear the stance DC has taken on this matter, they just haven't had shown Shiva owning Batman on panel yet... they probably thought all the subtle hints and blunt statements attesting to the fact that Shiva is better the Batman were enough. Clearly they were wrong.

Captain America can sense incoming attacks via air currents. Even from opponents as skilled as T'Challa.
http://img89.imageshack.us/my.php?image=coc004195wg.jpg

The Hand has stated that Captain America knows their martial arts:
http://img138.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hruxm268pg024zr.jpg

He dislocates a thug's shoulder with a mere touch:
http://img138.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamerica375p108la.jpg

He has made Spidey's legs go numb with a single nerve strike.
http://img201.imageshack.us/my.php?image=amazingspiderman53419qu5.jpg
http://img55.imageshack.us/my.php?image=amazingspiderman53420er2.jpg

Pressure to the External Carotid Artery:
http://img80.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamerica329042ko.jpg

Another one-nerve-strike-KO:
http://img80.imageshack.us/my.php?image=capamericav134320rougher9cm.jpg

Puts down a superhuman werewolf with a nerve strike:
http://img80.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamerica164179ax.jpg

Daredevil calls Captain America one of the world's greatest combatants. Daredevil would know, yeah?
http://img129.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamerica375p168lo.jpg

Here, Logan talks about the Skills that Taskmaster has copied. He saves the best for last, "Even the likes of Captain America himself!"
http://img160.imageshack.us/my.php?image=page116fq.jpg



The captions read about how Captain America cracks Mr. Hyde's ribs via skill, and then knocks him the **** out.
http://img96.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamerica152215qs.jpg

He knocks the shit out of superhuman Boxers like Bantam while remarking about how decades of fighting have honed his skill second to none.

His pressure points have registered on the Hulk on multiple occasions.

Also, I believe this scan sums it up perfectly http://img263.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamericav3034161pe.jpg

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
What you mean to say is "Shiva has never beaten Batman" not "She has shown she is a better MA." It's pretty clear the stance DC has taken on this matter, they just haven't had shown Shiva owning Batman on panel yet... they probably thought all the subtle hints and blunt statements attesting to the fact that Shiva is better the Batman were enough. Clearly they were wrong.

Again with Statements....you need to realise they don't mean shit,and tell me,have you seen their fights beforee?Shiva has never had the advntage in any confrontation between them.Hell Batman once casually tore away a pair of nunchuks from her.

So again,it's feats and showings we care about here,not dodgy statements or subtle hints.I thought the amount of time you've been here would be enough for you to understand that.

Originally posted by Soljer
Captain America can sense incoming attacks via air currents. Even from opponents as skilled as T'Challa.
http://img89.imageshack.us/my.php?image=coc004195wg.jpg

The Hand has stated that Captain America knows their martial arts:
http://img138.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hruxm268pg024zr.jpg

He dislocates a thug's shoulder with a mere touch:
http://img138.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamerica375p108la.jpg

He has made Spidey's legs go numb with a single nerve strike.
http://img201.imageshack.us/my.php?image=amazingspiderman53419qu5.jpg
http://img55.imageshack.us/my.php?image=amazingspiderman53420er2.jpg

Pressure to the External Carotid Artery:
http://img80.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamerica329042ko.jpg

Another one-nerve-strike-KO:
http://img80.imageshack.us/my.php?image=capamericav134320rougher9cm.jpg

Puts down a superhuman werewolf with a nerve strike:
http://img80.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamerica164179ax.jpg

Daredevil calls Captain America one of the world's greatest combatants. Daredevil would know, yeah?
http://img129.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamerica375p168lo.jpg

Here, Logan talks about the Skills that Taskmaster has copied. He saves the best for last, "Even the likes of Captain America himself!"
http://img160.imageshack.us/my.php?image=page116fq.jpg



The captions read about how Captain America cracks Mr. Hyde's ribs via skill, and then knocks him the **** out.
http://img96.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamerica152215qs.jpg

He knocks the shit out of superhuman Boxers like Bantam while remarking about how decades of fighting have honed his skill second to none.

His pressure points have registered on the Hulk on multiple occasions.

Also, I believe this scan sums it up perfectly http://img263.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamericav3034161pe.jpg

....So you show a bunch of nerve strikes that Batman,Dragon and Shiva have all been shown as capable of doing as though it shows his superiority?Riiight

You show a holding back-out of practice DD saying Caps one of the worlds greatest combatants......we all know that,but that is because of his enhancements and skills,had he said Martial artist or most skilled that scan might have meant something.

Mr Hyde is pathetic,you and i both know that.

That last scan.....So he mentions Captain America last....thats because out of all those men he respects Cap the most,if we're going by statements,then technically Cap wouldn't be any better than Wolverine at all.Also whoever that guy is treats one of Caps best finshing moves like nothing.....

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Again with Statements....you need to realise they don't mean shit,and tell me,have you seen their fights beforee?Shiva has never had the advntage in any confrontation between them.Hell Batman once casually tore away a pair of nunchuks from her.

So again,it's feats and showings we care about here,not dodgy statements or subtle hints.I thought the amount of time you've been here would be enough for you to understand that.

Lets use ABC logic then. Bronze Tiger has thrashed Batman and Shiva and Dragon are better then Turner. Even when Batman took "every precaution" he still would have lost to Turner had the fight not been interupted... and I think Turner even had the advatage in a third fight before the JLA broke it up. Aside from the fact that Shiva hasn't beaten Batman, there is nothing to sugest that he is as skilled as she is. Can I make an arguement for Punisher being as skilled as Shang Chi, because Shang has never fought him? No, no I can't.

Originally posted by Soljer
Captain America can sense incoming attacks via air currents. Even from opponents as skilled as T'Challa.
http://img89.imageshack.us/my.php?image=coc004195wg.jpg

The Hand has stated that Captain America knows their martial arts:
http://img138.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hruxm268pg024zr.jpg

He dislocates a thug's shoulder with a mere touch:
http://img138.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamerica375p108la.jpg

He has made Spidey's legs go numb with a single nerve strike.
http://img201.imageshack.us/my.php?image=amazingspiderman53419qu5.jpg
http://img55.imageshack.us/my.php?image=amazingspiderman53420er2.jpg

Pressure to the External Carotid Artery:
http://img80.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamerica329042ko.jpg

Another one-nerve-strike-KO:
http://img80.imageshack.us/my.php?image=capamericav134320rougher9cm.jpg

Puts down a superhuman werewolf with a nerve strike:
http://img80.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamerica164179ax.jpg

Daredevil calls Captain America one of the world's greatest combatants. Daredevil would know, yeah?
http://img129.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamerica375p168lo.jpg

Here, Logan talks about the Skills that Taskmaster has copied. He saves the best for last, "Even the likes of Captain America himself!"
http://img160.imageshack.us/my.php?image=page116fq.jpg



The captions read about how Captain America cracks Mr. Hyde's ribs via skill, and then knocks him the **** out.
http://img96.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamerica152215qs.jpg

He knocks the shit out of superhuman Boxers like Bantam while remarking about how decades of fighting have honed his skill second to none.

His pressure points have registered on the Hulk on multiple occasions.

Also, I believe this scan sums it up perfectly http://img263.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamericav3034161pe.jpg

That's a hell of a job, especially with that last scan. Definitely puts the nails in the coffin of this Vs. battle.

who's the combatant, btw? I don't recognize him?

Well thats the problem with Tasky he can mimic someones attack even in double speed, but he can not use it effectively, thats the difference.

Which reminds me some what of Shiva she may be a tad more skillfull or have more techniques then Batman or Batgirl. But she's never shown to be superior, on the contrary its Bats who seems to be the better in there scuffles.


Your right in saying those Cap feats don't show superiority but it does show he is one of the best.

Cass has thoroughly embarrassed Bizarro Supergirl. 131

Any character with a solo series is intuitively bound to amass more feats than someone who doesn't have one.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
....So you show a bunch of nerve strikes that Batman,Dragon and Shiva have all been shown as capable of doing as though it shows his superiority?Riiight

You show a holding back-out of practice DD saying Caps one of the worlds greatest combatants......we all know that,but that is because of his enhancements and skills,had he said Martial artist or most skilled that scan might have meant something.

Mr Hyde is pathetic,you and i both know that.

That last scan.....So he mentions Captain America last....thats because out of all those men he respects Cap the most,if we're going by statements,then technically Cap wouldn't be any better than Wolverine at all.Also whoever that guy is treats one of Caps best finshing moves like nothing.....

Martian Mind, I know you are capable of reading comprehension. Where did I EVER say that Captain America was the superior martial artist? Please. I've maintained that Captain America and Shiva are on comparable levels. Nothing more.

Also; I didn't post the scans as evidence of superiority, I posted them because Draco wanted an example of Cap stopping the blood flow to the brain. I figured a pressure point strike to a carotid artery would suffice.

In one of the scans that you showed Cap was able to pressure-point Spiderman through his new armor.

Cap when he was trasferred into the body of a old/dying Redscull body, he was able to paralyze Giant-Man's arms with a little tap on the forehead.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Lets use ABC logic then. Bronze Tiger has thrashed Batman and Shiva and Dragon are better then Turner. Even when Batman took "every precaution" he still would have lost to Turner had the fight not been interupted... and I think Turner even had the advatage in a third fight before the JLA broke it up. Aside from the fact that Shiva hasn't beaten Batman, there is nothing to sugest that he is as skilled as she is. Can I make an arguement for Punisher being as skilled as Shang Chi, because Shang has never fought him? No, no I can't.

Lets use ABC Logic,Batman knocked out spectre,therefore he's >then 90% of comic book heroes.Also your logic is flawed as they are considered equals with eachother hell Turner trained Dragon.

Also your making an argument that Capt is better than Shang based on The fact that someone who lost to shang wanted to beat Capt America.

Originally posted by Soljer
Martian Mind, I know you are capable of reading comprehension. Where did I EVER say that Captain America was the superior martial artist? Please. I've maintained that Captain America and Shiva are on comparable levels. Nothing more.

Also; I didn't post the scans as evidence of superiority, I posted them because Draco wanted an example of Cap stopping the blood flow to the brain. I figured a pressure point strike to a carotid artery would suffice.

My bad,i apologise....

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Lets use ABC Logic,Batman knocked out spectre,therefore he's >then 90% of comic book heroes.Also your logic is flawed as they are considered equals with eachother hell Turner trained Dragon.

Also your making an argument that Capt is better than Shang based on The fact that someone who lost to shang wanted to beat Capt America.

Dragon is Turners better, it was made pretty clear in his 12 issue series... which retconned the hell out of his, Turners and Shiva's historys. And Turner has an interaction with Cass as well that suggest he wasn't on par with the Shiva or Dragon.

I think Captain America is better then Shang Chi because his primary villian said as much... and that Wolverine beat Shang Chi. Zaran isn't the only Shang Chi villian Captain America has fought either. He has thrown down with maybe half a dozen Chi villains and faired much, much better the Chi himself.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Dragon is Turners better, it was made pretty clear in his 12 issue series... which retconned the hell out of his, Turners and Shiva's historys. And Turner has an interaction with Cass as well that suggest he was on par with the Shiva or Dragon.

I think Captain America is better then Shang Chi because his primary villian said as much... and that Wolverine beat Shang Chi. Zaran isn't the only Shang Chi villian Captain America has fought either. He has thrown down with maybe half a dozen Chi villains and faired much, much better the Chi himself.

ABC logic is a mugs game.

Here's an example:Nightwing stalemated Deathstroke who in turn defeated Batman,Who in turn has Knocked out Spectre who destroyed 60% of the dcu's magical population,Therefore Nightwing>>>>>60% of the Dcu's Magical population.

Caps victories come from both a combination of the Serum and Skill,So it would make perfect sense when someone who's ALMOST at Shang-chi's level in Skill but is faster,stronger and more durable Takes a victory.

Batman never knocked out Spectre. He batkicked him and caused the pained expression on the Spectre's face that we see all over the place....

But it didn't actually KNOCK the spectre out, if I do recall correctly.