Kil'jaeden vs Lichking

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Utrigita
So how wins???

TricksterPriest
Ner'Zhul was scared shitless of Kiljaeden coming back for him.

Arthas dies.

Utrigita
the fusioned lichking is descripted as the most powerful person to exist in the world of Azeroth.

TricksterPriest
Yeah, but Kil'Jaeden MADE the Lich King. Not to mention he's a full demon lord and he's currently the commander of the Burning Legion.

Burning thought
i would say the Lichking...quite simply because Kiljaeden obviously fears him and sees him as a threat...weve never seen him fight ourselves much...he destroyed Nerzuels body and sent it into the northrend but thats all hes done and the only other high ranking commander of the legion was destroyed without putting up too much of a fight

overall tho, Kiljaedon wanted to stop arthas from fusing so much for a reason, he seemed almost desperate and has gone quite quiet towards the scene at the moment, i think the LichKing perhaps now has the power to destory most enemies and so i say he wins

TricksterPriest
Originally posted by Burning thought
i would say the Lichking...quite simply because Kiljaeden obviously fears him and sees him as a threat...weve never seen him fight ourselves much...he destroyed Nerzuels body and sent it into the northrend but thats all hes done and the only other high ranking commander of the legion was destroyed without putting up too much of a fight

overall tho, Kiljaedon wanted to stop arthas from fusing so much for a reason, he seemed almost desperate and has gone quite quiet towards the scene at the moment, i think the LichKing perhaps now has the power to destory most enemies and so i say he wins


Kiljaeden is the one who powered up Illidan and he's also the guy who made a deal with Gul'Dan for control of the orcs.

ARCHIE GOT KILLED WITHOUT PUTTING UP MUCH OF A FIGHT!? What the f**k? blink Did you even play WC3? Archimonde, or Archie as most call him, was beating down the armies of the orcs, humans, night elves and medivh COMBINED. They had to destroy the world tree to kill him.

We're not sure how the two rank up comparatively, but I'd still put Kil'jaeden over the Lich King for now.

Burning thought
ofcourse, but i only play the games and in the games Archimonde didnt do much himself, he simply sent armies, ime talking about his actually power within himself. It was mostly the combined might of the scourge that he brought with him that did most of the damage..Archie didnt do much

Utrigita
If you can hold out the first post until archimond himself starts to move you will get pounderet don't underestimate Archimonde, It took a detonation of enormeous energy to destroy him, and if Archimonde had been clear in his head he would easily have seen the trap, and defeated it. Just a little information Archimonde saw Kil'jaeden as being more powerful then himself.

Burning thought
perhaps so tho...but personally when i was playing, i could win the last level easily by just letting go of the 2 posts before the last and building great amounts of towers, always won me the game smile

Archi ofc is powerful, it took the full power of the druids and the earth itself to destroy him...however his offensive powers are not as great compared to some

TricksterPriest
He nuked Dalaran with one spell. Just by drawing a circle in the ground. It cost the night elves their immortality, and he was powerful enough to destroy the Lich King circa WC3. I'd say you are seriously underrating him.

Utrigita
and he was powerful enough to destroy the Lich King circa WC3???

Burning thought
Originally posted by Utrigita
and he was powerful enough to destroy the Lich King circa WC3???

yeh trick wat do u mean by this?....also the Dalaren thing ive heard is simply because its on a node of ancient demonic magic and is the only reason he could destroy the city..regardless, he wouldnt be able to make a little sand castle and symbols on the ground before the lich king messes his spell up and blasts him with magic of his own

i personally think theyd be evenly matched both Archimonde and Lich King, and kiljaeden similiar, however this rly cant be told of because we dont know anythin bout lich kings new powers....for all we know he could be a rival to Sergerus as well as the Pantheon of titans themselves or perhaps may just be merely a tiny amount stronger than arthas already was, only time will tell

Superboy Prime
All of that sounds interesting...in what game do they appear?

MadMel
war craft series..

Utrigita
Originally posted by Burning thought
yeh trick wat do u mean by this?....also the Dalaren thing ive heard is simply because its on a node of ancient demonic magic and is the only reason he could destroy the city..regardless, he wouldnt be able to make a little sand castle and symbols on the ground before the lich king messes his spell up and blasts him with magic of his own

i personally think theyd be evenly matched both Archimonde and Lich King, and kiljaeden similiar, however this rly cant be told of because we dont know anythin bout lich kings new powers....for all we know he could be a rival to Sergerus as well as the Pantheon of titans themselves or perhaps may just be merely a tiny amount stronger than arthas already was, only time will tell

RIVAL TO SARGARES ARE YOU NUTS

Burning thought
Originally posted by Utrigita
RIVAL TO SARGARES ARE YOU NUTS

how would you know? we dont know anything much at all about this Lichking and i said "perhaps" i didnt say he was...theres nothin to cross out the lich kings new power

TricksterPriest
If you're comparing him to Sargeras, you are nuts. Even with his new power, Arthas does not begin to rival Sargeras.

Burning thought
where does it say that Trickster? if you can show me a recent blizzard document saying he is definatley nothing on Sergerus then ill belive you...however saying just because Sergerus was a powerful enormous titan of the legion and its leader doesnt necessarily mean he is infinitily powerful, his Avatar was destroyed by the guardian who wasnt exactley incredible...and where is segerous now? his essence was thrown into the void and now he cant really do much...

it is "possible" that the new lich king could become as powerful as sergerus, his mind is incredibly powerful, perhaps he can distort the thoughts of even burning legion high ranks or the great dragons

Utrigita
let me see a little info on Sargares, the mightiest of all the titans, capable of defeating the entire race of eredar in the pre-retcon of warcraft, the power in his eye was enough to blast of the top of the world. to even begin to assume that the Lich king in any way should rival Sargares is excuse me for saying it a reason for being placed at a mental institution and you seems to know what you are talking about now if you didn't know anything about that okay but even the thought, I am sorry I simply must go out and laugh in the snow. no offense.

Yes everything is possible just not this, the only reason for Sargares being defeated at the hands a Aegwyn was because he wanted to don't forget that, not because of Aegwyn being his superior.

Please don't take this the wrong way.

TricksterPriest
now that last part is very interesting. I had no idea he threw that fight. that places a whole new spin on the Legion's plans and what happened in WC3:ROC and Frozen Throne.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Utrigita
let me see a little info on Sargares, the mightiest of all the titans, capable of defeating the entire race of eredar in the pre-retcon of warcraft, the power in his eye was enough to blast of the top of the world. to even begin to assume that the Lich king in any way should rival Sargares is excuse me for saying it a reason for being placed at a mental institution and you seems to know what you are talking about now if you didn't know anything about that okay but even the thought, I am sorry I simply must go out and laugh in the snow. no offense.

Yes everything is possible just not this, the only reason for Sargares being defeated at the hands a Aegwyn was because he wanted to don't forget that, not because of Aegwyn being his superior.

Please don't take this the wrong way.

yes but m8, regardless he didnt want to be cast into the void, if he was so all powerful he wouldnt of been...yet his spirit was...dont remember how he ended up there, did mediv caste him out...and i still stand by my decision that the lich king is still unkown...blizzard can do wat ever he wants with him they like

Utrigita
Originally posted by Burning thought
yes but m8, regardless he didnt want to be cast into the void, if he was so all powerful he wouldnt of been...yet his spirit was...dont remember how he ended up there, did mediv caste him out...and i still stand by my decision that the lich king is still unkown...blizzard can do wat ever he wants with him they like

A quick lesson in the AZEROTH history, hmmm.
once apon a time... forget that lets jump to the facts.

Sargares got defeated by Aegwyn BUT because of him wishing it, Reason? Because of him wanting to get access to Medivh the Last Guardin and possessed him with eas.

Kil'jaeden in the mean time convinced Guldan in Draenor to rally the orcs behind him and go conquer the world that soon would be open before them. Sargares then began romming the Astral plan to tell his two subcoordinat that the time was at hand (Kil'Jaeden and Archimonde was both terrified of the power he realised in the astral plan)
Sargares used his powers in medivh to open a Portal to Azeroth through which the Orcs stormed through.
Then something happen that Sargares had not intended he had sent Gul'dan to fetch his avatar body, but Gul'dan was torn to schrets by demons on top of that Medivh was killed by knadgar I believe his name was so actually for Medivh casting him out wrong, Medivh was believed killed until W3, where he was resurrected.
So for Sargares ending in the Void was a result of a plan gone bad. And again Blizzard couldn't allowe Sargares to live since his powers would easily have defeated the entire Azeroth something the Lich King cannot do over night.
I know he is powerfull but comparing his level of power in the RPG then sorry Lich King gets kicked by Archimonde. And Archimonde is nothing I repeat Nothing to Sargares.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Utrigita
A quick lesson in the AZEROTH history, hmmm.
once apon a time... forget that lets jump to the facts.

Sargares got defeated by Aegwyn BUT because of him wishing it, Reason? Because of him wanting to get access to Medivh the Last Guardin and possessed him with eas.

Kil'jaeden in the mean time convinced Guldan in Draenor to rally the orcs behind him and go conquer the world that soon would be open before them. Sargares then began romming the Astral plan to tell his two subcoordinat that the time was at hand (Kil'Jaeden and Archimonde was both terrified of the power he realised in the astral plan)
Sargares used his powers in medivh to open a Portal to Azeroth through which the Orcs stormed through.
Then something happen that Sargares had not intended he had sent Gul'dan to fetch his avatar body, but Gul'dan was torn to schrets by demons on top of that Medivh was killed by knadgar I believe his name was so actually for Medivh casting him out wrong, Medivh was believed killed until W3, where he was resurrected.
So for Sargares ending in the Void was a result of a plan gone bad. And again Blizzard couldn't allowe Sargares to live since his powers would easily have defeated the entire Azeroth something the Lich King cannot do over night.
I know he is powerfull but comparing his level of power in the RPG then sorry Lich King gets kicked by Archimonde. And Archimonde is nothing I repeat Nothing to Sargares.

yes yes i know all that, ive read blizzard story several times but regardless, sergerus for all his power couldnt stop his plan messing...if he makes mistakes then he can be defeaten, trusting Guldan was one of them...i mean if he can even come back which i doubt but if he does he may trust someone else to do a job for him and the lich king just kills that person and segerus is thrown back into limbo again

the Lich king has never actually been defeaten..has he even been denied much? almost everything the lich king set out to do has been accomplished, like the combination of Arthas and himself, nothing stopped them..he destroyed the elves, rasied a great dragon as a wyrm, perhaps he would never be as powerful as sergerus but Archimonde id say is quite possible at least....besides Warcraft isnt all about strength, many times stronger characters end up getting defeaten in one way or another by lesser ones, and i belive the lich King has the goal of taking control or destroying the legion for what they did probably more like control...his controlling powers are quite powerful

TricksterPriest
Dude, stop. you're not gonna win this arguement. He's not gonna be as powerful as Archie for awhile. He may reach the level eventually, but he's not near it yet. Archie got beat because he was a moron and he got greedy, plain and simple. That, and Ner-zhul may have double crossed him by purposely not telling him about the trap.......

Burning thought
exactley, Nerzuel is far more cunning and intelligent..its obvious, the burning legion are arrogent hot heads..knowledge is also power, not just brute strength and nerzuel seems to know whats going on most of the time

TricksterPriest
I'll easily admit the Lich King is smarter than Archie, but not Kil'jaeden, not yet anyways.

Burning thought
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
I'll easily admit the Lich King is smarter than Archie, but not Kil'jaeden, not yet anyways.


whats Kil'jaedon done thats too clever...hes not too hot headed but he uses people too much and ends up empty handed, i dont see why he doesnt simply attack Lich King head on by himself if hes so powerful...

TricksterPriest
Because he's locked out of Azeroth at the moment. And illidan works for Kil'jaeden. And we all know how powerful he is.....

DarkC
Burning thought is correct. Whatever Kil'Jaeden did was for mostly for naught.

Before the orcs came to Azeroth he approached Ner'Zhul (most powerful shaman of the orcs at the time) and attempted to rouse the orcs to kill the Draenei at the time, infusing them with Mannoroth's blood and cursing them. Ner'Zhul realises that he's been duped, rebels, and is defeated but Kil'Jaeden spares him and confines him to the Frozen Throne.

First mistake, letting your only nemesis with real potential live. What the bloody hell was he thinking?

Gul'Dan was Ner'Zhul's apprentice at the time, he founded the sect of the warlocks. Through Sargeras-infested Medivh he manages to create the Dark Portal and let the Fel Orcs run through, big-ass war, humans win. Oh dear. Fast forward in time again, second war, humans still win. Double oh dear. Fast forward in time again, Thrall manages to rouses his people, founds the new Horde, sails to Kalimdor. Hellscream, demon-infested at the time, manages to break the hold that the demonic curse has on them ("Crap!" says Kil'Jaeden) and slays a greater demon.

Kil'Jaeden: "no expression"

On the other hand, Ner'Zhul, establishing himself as the Lich King, somehow manages to reach past his prison that Kil'Jaeden himself crafted ("Oh, damn!" says Kil'Jaeden.), creates his own agents and his own Scourge that wreaks massive havoc and results in Plaguelands everywhere. His puppets manage to summon Archimonde, his partner in crime. Burning Legion tries and fails. Archimonde dies.

Yay. Let's look at their top underlings so far prior to Lich King merging.

Kil'Jaeden: Illidan, Kael, Lady Vashj.

Ner'Zhul: Arthas, Kel'Thuzad, plus a few advanced Dreadlords.

Anyways, Kil'Jaeden sends Illidan and his cronies to make sure that he destroys the Frozen Throne, something he should have done years and years ago. ("Oh, never mind," Kil'Jaeden says. "It'll be destroyed anyways."wink
Right? Wrong.

Oops, his plan seem to have backfired. Ner'Zhul merges with Arthas and becomes the most powerful entity Azeroth as known. Kil'Jaeden? He's left in Outland with Illidan to rage over.

TricksterPriest
The point is made, and agreed with. Kil'jaeden screwed up royally. The first Orc war was lost because of internal strife among the orcs, which is something Kil'jaeden should have dealt with. Gul'dan was controlling things behind the scenes, but he tried to extract information from Medivh's mind before his first death, only he got caught in the psychic backlash.

Fast forward a few months. BlackHand the destroyer, commander of the orcs, was killed by his strongest general, Orgrim Doomhammer. Doomhammer found Garona the half-orc, Gul'dan's agent, and found out about the shadow council.

Gul'dan's forces were wiped out, and Gul'dan pledged loyalty to Doomhammer and promised to create new sorcerers and an undead army. The first efforts were the ogre-magi, and later, the Death Knights.

Gul'dan found Sargeras's tomb, but was killed by the demons within. The orcs lost the 2nd war, however, Doomhammer attempted a parley. They were ambushed by the sons of Blackhand, and forced to fight them and the Lordaeron peacemakers, among them, Sir Anduin Lothar.

Fast forward another generation. Thrall escapes from Durnholde keep. He finds Doomhammer and becomes the new warchief and moves everyone to Kalimdor. While this is going on, Mannoroth and Archie come to town. Mannoroth spikes a fountain of life with his blood. Hellscream drinks said blood. The Fel Orcs start wrecking the surrounding area. Thrall and a slightly deranged Hellscream, manage to kill off Mannoroth. Boom, no more blood curse. However, some of the fel orcs survived the upheavel of Draenor, and became servants of Kil-jaeden.

Ner'zhul, as the lich king, looks around and finds a powerful, but stupid, paladin, known as Arthas Menethil. Arthas, being the schmuck that he is, is drawn to Northrend, where he claims the runesword, Frostmourne. He kills off a few of the Dread Lords, who are only now starting to realize they have been duped. Tichondrius was onto the Lich King's plan, but he was killed by Illidan before he could relay the info. At this point, Archie is now marching on Yggdrasil, and the night elves, orcs and humans, have teamed up to try and stop him. The wisps, druids, dryads and other sorcerers, set the trap. Archie, in his greed for the power of the well of eternity, doesn't notice the power build up. He is subsequently nuked. stick out tongue

Aftermath: Things are looking up for the orcs. But the night elves and humans are kinda screwed. The night elves have lost most of their power and the forests got ****ed up by the burning legion. The humans on the other hand, are attempting to stop King Arthas's rampage throughout Lordaeron. While Maiev Shadowsong attempts to rejail Illidan, Sylvanas leads a rebellion against Arthas, who is experiencing a serious power drop for reasons that will soon be related.

Maiev finds Illidan has acquired 'The eye of Sargeras', and is doing something that may destroy the world. She goes and finds Illidan's brother, Furion and the two stop Illidan and smash the eye. This turns out to be a serious ****up. Illidan had cut a deal with Kil'jaeden to kill the Lich King in exchange for power and more magic for his addiction. But, now Illidan has to run like hell because he didn't get the job done. Maiev follows him into outland.

The High elves, now called Blood elves, are not dealing with the fall of Silvermoon very well. Without magic, they are starting to crack and turn into junkies without a fix. Kael'thas Sunstrider, Prince of the blood elves, cuts a deal with Vashj of the naga to get out of a nasty situation after racist humans deprive him of needed forces. Said humans find out about the naga, and promptly jail his ass. Vashj shows up to bust him out, and offers him a place serving Illidan, who can supply him with magic. (And possibly the opportunity to be her boyfriend. Hot elf/naga action! laughing sick Yeah, it creeps me out too.) So they go to Outland and bust Illidan out from Maiev's grasp. Unfortunately, Kil'jaeden shows up, and he is royally pissed. Illidan begs for his life and shows him the forces he has gotten. Kil decides to give him another shot. So, they head off to Northrend, to reluctantly fight the scourge yet again.

Meanwhile, Arthas finally shows up in the north. (Amazing how all these events seem to coincide, you'd almost think there was a script roll eyes (sarcastic) ) He gets met by a giant beetle called Anub'arak. Anub (pronounced 'A newb, laughing out loud ) takes him to the lich king, after meeting a few rejects from an H.P. Lovecraft story. Ner'Zhul tells him that Icecrown is under attack, and he needs his go to guy (aka Arthas), to clean house. So he restores all of Arthas's power (you had to fight the last couple of stages with falling levels, which was kind of gay.....) and tells him to go beat some ass with Anub. They proceed to demolish the blood elf and naga bases. This leads to the all important and very cool, showdown. Illidan stormrage, bitchboy for Kil'jaeden, vs. Arthas Menethil, the Lich King's host body/hitman. Naturally, Arthas whups Illidan and ascends to the top. At the top, he returns the sword to the throne, breaking the ice. He puts on the armor and merges with the Lich King.


And that's where this story ends, and WoW begins. How did I do? Btw, Arthas is supposed to be so powerful, that only a level 90 40-man raid will have a chance of beating him. But, that still doesn't mean Kil'jaeden won't be worse. Of course, it is possible that Arthas is more powerful, but nothing so far indicates this.

Burning thought
yes i belive altho it is a lot to say, the Lich King may equel or be greater than Kiljaeden, he has been allowed to do alot of things due to kiljaedens and his henchmens foolishness. The King is going to be blatently more powerful than anyhing in WoW so far, that includes C'thun who altho isnt as strong as he used to be, is still one of the old gods and once defeated a Titan, more powerufl than Ragnaros the fire lord, his lacky Kelthuzard who is quite powerful...plus the dragons which are powerful...this would certainly mean Lichie is going to be quite incredible and he aint even near going in the game i bet, well prob be pornin all over the place before he comes out

Utrigita
Originally posted by DarkC
Burning thought is correct. Whatever Kil'Jaeden did was for mostly for naught.

Before the orcs came to Azeroth he approached Ner'Zhul (most powerful shaman of the orcs at the time) and attempted to rouse the orcs to kill the Draenei at the time, infusing them with Mannoroth's blood and cursing them. Ner'Zhul realises that he's been duped, rebels, and is defeated but Kil'Jaeden spares him and confines him to the Frozen Throne.

First mistake, letting your only nemesis with real potential live. What the bloody hell was he thinking?

Gul'Dan was Ner'Zhul's apprentice at the time, he founded the sect of the warlocks. Through Sargeras-infested Medivh he manages to create the Dark Portal and let the Fel Orcs run through, big-ass war, humans win. Oh dear. Fast forward in time again, second war, humans still win. Double oh dear. Fast forward in time again, Thrall manages to rouses his people, founds the new Horde, sails to Kalimdor. Hellscream, demon-infested at the time, manages to break the hold that the demonic curse has on them ("Crap!" says Kil'Jaeden) and slays a greater demon.

Kil'Jaeden: "no expression"

On the other hand, Ner'Zhul, establishing himself as the Lich King, somehow manages to reach past his prison that Kil'Jaeden himself crafted ("Oh, damn!" says Kil'Jaeden.), creates his own agents and his own Scourge that wreaks massive havoc and results in Plaguelands everywhere. His puppets manage to summon Archimonde, his partner in crime. Burning Legion tries and fails. Archimonde dies.

Yay. Let's look at their top underlings so far prior to Lich King merging.

Kil'Jaeden: Illidan, Kael, Lady Vashj.

Ner'Zhul: Arthas, Kel'Thuzad, plus a few advanced Dreadlords.

Anyways, Kil'Jaeden sends Illidan and his cronies to make sure that he destroys the Frozen Throne, something he should have done years and years ago. ("Oh, never mind," Kil'Jaeden says. "It'll be destroyed anyways."wink
Right? Wrong.

Oops, his plan seem to have backfired. Ner'Zhul merges with Arthas and becomes the most powerful entity Azeroth as known. Kil'Jaeden? He's left in Outland with Illidan to rage over.

Host Host Gul'dan was more powerful then his master, he is said to have been the greatest none eredar warlock to have existed. And don't forget that the humans lost because of Gul'dan being send to the undersea tombs by Sargares to fetch his avatar body, he toke a pretty good part of the army with him thus denying doomhammer the chance of destroying the alliance.

I think you need a little lesson in kil'jaeden powers and abilities and most importantly his IQ.

Kil'Jaeden was descripted as being the strongest of the three Eredar Velen, Archimonde and himself. Point for Kil'Jaeden.

Kil'jaeden is actually the host behind the creation of the legion its vast size and potential is because of Kil'jaedens abilities to round up races all across the universe.

Yes his plan backfired, and this is not because Kil'Jaeden is stupid on the contrary, by allowing people that makes mistakes and giving them a second chance the chances of there loyalty to grow is created.

Now you mentioned the underlings shall we all remember warcraft III where Illidan and Arthas fought to a stand still, and then suddenly in Warcraft III FT Illidan is defeated (confused), even though he was given a powerbost by Kil'jaeden. (Even more confused)

And however, Kil'jaeden's full powers lie not within the boundaries of physical and magical ability, but in the mind. His unrivaled cunning placed him first in position in the ranks of the Burning Legion, and so aptly gave him the title of the Deceiver. He managed the corruption of the orcs with very little magical expenditure, a plan executed almost entirely by manipulation.

And don't forget what he enslaved the dreadlords you know the beings that corrupted Sargares.

DarkC
Maybe he isn't stupid, but that was a stupid decision of his. Loyalty, my ass...Ner'Zhul outright declared that Kil'Jaeden betrayed his people and when he was told of their plan to drink Mannoroth's blood, he yelled that he would never betray his people to a life of slavery. He expected to be killed at the time, but was he? No. He was still powerful at the time and Kil'Jaeden should have outright killed him and forgot about it, but no...he tried to make a powerful orc with a strong will his puppet.

Play with fire, you'll get burned.

My point; Ner'Zhul's influence was clearly much more powerful than Kil'Jaeden's.

Yeah, he may have been cunning but like an a-hole he obsessively sought the downfall of Velen, once his friend. So a whirlwind of events happen and the orcs are infested and unleashed against the Draenei.

"Well, that's about done it," he says smugly, dusting his hands off.

Wrong. Velen still lives. Where's his inherent cunning now?

It wasn't the Dreadlords that pushed Sargeras to insanity, it was everything. You give them far too much credit. And they weren't enslaved by Kil'Jaeden. Nathrezim, Eredar, Pitlords, you name it. Even before this "There can never be good" crap started getting to his head he'd already locked them up in the Twisting Nether. Sargeras goes insane, frees them and creates the Burning Legion.

Utrigita
Originally posted by DarkC
Maybe he isn't stupid, but that was a stupid decision of his. Loyalty, my ass...Ner'Zhul outright declared that Kil'Jaeden betrayed his people and when he was told of their plan to drink Mannoroth's blood, he yelled that he would never betray his people to a life of slavery. He expected to be killed at the time, but was he? No. He was still powerful at the time and Kil'Jaeden should have outright killed him and forgot about it, but no...he tried to make a powerful orc with a strong will his puppet.

Play with fire, you'll get burned.

My point; Ner'Zhul's influence was clearly much more powerful than Kil'Jaeden's.

Yeah, he may have been cunning but like an a-hole he obsessively sought the downfall of Velen, once his friend. So a whirlwind of events happen and the orcs are infested and unleashed against the Draenei.

"Well, that's about done it," he says smugly, dusting his hands off.

Wrong. Velen still lives. Where's his inherent cunning now?

It wasn't the Dreadlords that pushed Sargeras to insanity, it was everything. You give them far too much credit. And they weren't enslaved by Kil'Jaeden. Nathrezim, Eredar, Pitlords, you name it. Even before this "There can never be good" crap started getting to his head he'd already locked them up in the Twisting Nether. Sargeras goes insane, frees them and creates the Burning Legion.

That is another story personally I agree with you he should have killed him. But this doesn't speak for Kil'Jaeden being dumb ore being a bad planer. Kil'Jaeden hasn't been burned yet but to envolve in battles is kind of below him.

No it wasn't I was refering to the hole scene in the end, the fight should have been far more interesting and spetacular instead of a couple of sword clash and Illidan flying but and opening his chest for a direct assault stupid move, but after all Illidan was always arrogant.

His cunning is still there don't forget that Velen escaped thanks to that other race (cannot remember his name) Not because of Velen being more cunning than Kil'Jaeden

Oh yes it was, today there is only confirmed on race that was trapped in the twisted neither and that was the Dreadlords.

From the WOW
"While his confusion and misery deepened, Sargeras was forced to contend with another group intent on disrupting the Titans' order: the Nathrezim. This dark race of vampiric demons (also known as Dreadlords) conquered a number of populated worlds by possessing their inhabitants and turning them to the shadow. The nefarious, scheming Dreadlords turned whole nations against one another by manipulating them into unthinking hatred and mistrust. Sargeras defeated the Nathrezim easily, but their corruption affected him deeply."

and they dorve him over the fine little line, and yes they was enslaved by Kil'Jaeden again

Kil'jaeden's first move was to enslave the vampiric Dreadlords under his terrible power. The Dreadlords served as his personal agents throughout the universe, and they took pleasure in locating primitive races for their master to corrupt and bring into the fold. First amongst the dreadlords was Tichondrius the Darkener. Tichondrius served Kil'jaeden as the perfect soldier and agreed to bring Sargeras' burning will to all the dark corners of the universe.

Yes Sargares creates the Burning Legion BUT The burning Legion sheer size and vast potential for destruction can only be attributed to Kil'jaeden having done his job well. Not a bad planer big grin

Violent2Dope
Dont you guys think that it may be kinda hard to compare Kiljaeden(who we dont know much about) and the new Lich King(who we know almost nothing about). But dont underestimate Arthas, Nerzhul was once a Shaman and then became a Necromancer, while Arthas was a Paladin who became a Deathknight. That would give him an impressive amount of powers.

Utrigita
bump we know a more now I think then we did back then.

Diamond Kisses
Kil'Jaeden I believe yes

Fuddle
No matter the effort, not from any perspective can I see how Lich King could defeat Kil'Jaeden smile

EvilAngel
I'd root for Lich King, but that doesn't change who i think is gonig to win sad

Diamond Kisses
Let me guess stick out tongue

Kil'Jaeden? angel

EvilAngel
*crosses fingers* No, Lich King

Diamond Kisses
Loser mhm

EvilAngel
I'm not a loser sad

Diamond Kisses
We all are lion

Burning thought
ill say the same as i said before, Kil'jaeden still has not enough bonds of power that id give him an instant win over the Lich king who will still know nothing much about. As said that long time ago, a lot of Kiljaedens plans backfired, he has never tried to attack Lich king head on combine that with the fact that he needed the Orcs, he came to the Orcs to make them his, if he was so powerful why would he want the Orcs, he wanted them, and he used Gul'dan and tried to use Nerzuel. Yet Nerzuel slapped him in the face, even in the end, Kiljaedens Wrath only ended up adding to Nerzuels power so much

i just dont see why anyone thinks so highly of Killy, all i see is a rank

EvilAngel
Originally posted by Diamond Kisses
We all are lion

but you picked me out, i'm some kinda mutant super loser no expression

Fuddle
Originally posted by Burning thought
ill say the same as i said before, Kil'jaeden still has not enough bonds of power that id give him an instant win over the Lich king who will still know nothing much about. As said that long time ago, a lot of Kiljaedens plans backfired, he has never tried to attack Lich king head on combine that with the fact that he needed the Orcs, he came to the Orcs to make them his, if he was so powerful why would he want the Orcs, he wanted them, and he used Gul'dan and tried to use Nerzuel. Yet Nerzuel slapped him in the face, even in the end, Kiljaedens Wrath only ended up adding to Nerzuels power so much

i just dont see why anyone thinks so highly of Killy, all i see is a rank

You have valid views, but a few corrections are needed smile

Kil'Jaeden never tried attacking the Lich King because he as good as never interact in direct combat. He uses others to take on his dirty work, but after the failure of Illidan has Kil'Jaeden decided to take actions in his own hands. He does not stay away from Lich King because he fear him, but because he thinks one step ahead. Trough the failure of Illidan does Kil'Jaeden know what he is up against. He have now asked Kael'Thas to summon him to Azeroth. You should be capable of guessing why smile

Exactly. To correct the misstakes that his servants have made.

Another correction would be that Kil'Jaeden never needed the orcs. He never has and never will. The fact remains that he wanted the orcs, but he does not need them. He used them to enforce the Burning Legion and have them do his dirty work in the search for Velen. They are paws in a massive chess game. Paws that will bleed for his selfish needs to destroy Velen. He could have used the Dreadlords or any other force from the Burning Legion, but he did not wish to use such powerful resource in a simple job such as tracking the Draenei down.

He had the orcs kneel before him, because he could and they would. He fooled Ner'Zhul to have them all unite. The stronger the Burning Legion became, the better would they serve the means of Sargeras and Kil'jaeden.

You see the rank of a Burning legion Lieutenant, which is proof enough that you are not eligable to discuss in Lich King's matter. I see a mighty Eredar that overcome his foes with intellect over brute power. A might Eredar that holds unimaginable powers, but uses them only as last resort. A mighty Eredar that has barely been needing his massive powers trough his life due to his extreme intellect. A mighty Eredar that is the best of the better. He is among the more powerful characters in history. He is above the aspects, he is above Archimonde and he is above any one force in the Burning Legion.


Lich King broke out from his grasp, yes. Lich King is of surpreeme intellect, yes. Lich King lacks what it takes to take down the furious Kil'jaeden. In size alone would Kil'Jaeden have Lich King quiver.

Utrigita
Originally posted by Fuddle
You have valid views, but a few corrections are needed smile

Kil'Jaeden never tried attacking the Lich King because he as good as never interact in direct combat. He uses others to take on his dirty work, but after the failure of Illidan has Kil'Jaeden decided to take actions in his own hands. He does not stay away from Lich King because he fear him, but because he thinks one step ahead. Trough the failure of Illidan does Kil'Jaeden know what he is up against. He have now asked Kael'Thas to summon him to Azeroth. You should be capable of guessing why smile

Exactly. To correct the misstakes that his servants have made.

Another correction would be that Kil'Jaeden never needed the orcs. He never has and never will. The fact remains that he wanted the orcs, but he does not need them. He used them to enforce the Burning Legion and have them do his dirty work in the search for Velen. They are paws in a massive chess game. Paws that will bleed for his selfish needs to destroy Velen. He could have used the Dreadlords or any other force from the Burning Legion, but he did not wish to use such powerful resource in a simple job such as tracking the Draenei down.

He had the orcs kneel before him, because he could and they would. He fooled Ner'Zhul to have them all unite. The stronger the Burning Legion became, the better would they serve the means of Sargeras and Kil'jaeden.

You see the rank of a Burning legion Lieutenant, which is proof enough that you are not eligable to discuss in Lich King's matter. I see a mighty Eredar that overcome his foes with intellect over brute power. A might Eredar that holds unimaginable powers, but uses them only as last resort. A mighty Eredar that has barely been needing his massive powers trough his life due to his extreme intellect. A mighty Eredar that is the best of the better. He is among the more powerful characters in history. He is above the aspects, he is above Archimonde and he is above any one force in the Burning Legion.


Lich King broke out from his grasp, yes. Lich King is of surpreeme intellect, yes. Lich King lacks what it takes to take down the furious Kil'jaeden. In size alone would Kil'Jaeden have Lich King quiver.

thumb up great post.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Fuddle
You have valid views, but a few corrections are needed smile

Kil'Jaeden never tried attacking the Lich King because he as good as never interact in direct combat. He uses others to take on his dirty work, but after the failure of Illidan has Kil'Jaeden decided to take actions in his own hands. He does not stay away from Lich King because he fear him, but because he thinks one step ahead. Trough the failure of Illidan does Kil'Jaeden know what he is up against. He have now asked Kael'Thas to summon him to Azeroth. You should be capable of guessing why smile

Exactly. To correct the misstakes that his servants have made.

Another correction would be that Kil'Jaeden never needed the orcs. He never has and never will. The fact remains that he wanted the orcs, but he does not need them. He used them to enforce the Burning Legion and have them do his dirty work in the search for Velen. They are paws in a massive chess game. Paws that will bleed for his selfish needs to destroy Velen. He could have used the Dreadlords or any other force from the Burning Legion, but he did not wish to use such powerful resource in a simple job such as tracking the Draenei down.

He had the orcs kneel before him, because he could and they would. He fooled Ner'Zhul to have them all unite. The stronger the Burning Legion became, the better would they serve the means of Sargeras and Kil'jaeden.

You see the rank of a Burning legion Lieutenant, which is proof enough that you are not eligable to discuss in Lich King's matter. I see a mighty Eredar that overcome his foes with intellect over brute power. A might Eredar that holds unimaginable powers, but uses them only as last resort. A mighty Eredar that has barely been needing his massive powers trough his life due to his extreme intellect. A mighty Eredar that is the best of the better. He is among the more powerful characters in history. He is above the aspects, he is above Archimonde and he is above any one force in the Burning Legion.


Lich King broke out from his grasp, yes. Lich King is of surpreeme intellect, yes. Lich King lacks what it takes to take down the furious Kil'jaeden. In size alone would Kil'Jaeden have Lich King quiver.


exactley, always using pawns, he has never in the games at least attacked himself an opponent no matter if his pawns fail, always does he use others. He gets slaped the face by the King and the lich king knows he cant do anything about it, the Lich king has planned ahead all along, i think Kil'jaeden has made a big mistake.

Needed, ofc he needed them, otherwise he would not of wanted them, a want always comes from a need, even if he just needed some servants, yet he keeps using these pawns, never his powers, which ive seen nought of....

Overcame? who has he Overcome, its Lich king who has overcome foes with intellect and beaten down his Jailers. Unimaginable powers? when please, show me when he shows unimaginable power. Now your dragging it, best of the better means nothing...most powerful, please show me when? so far all hes done is plan and scheme and some of the schemes have gone down the drain


nopes, i dont think the Lich King fears anything now, he is simply unconcerned of Kil'jaeden especially not in size, Argewyn the guardian did not fear Sargerus himself, what makes you think the ancient Orc and now incredible mind powered being that is Lich king would be fearful of Kiljaedens size. Incapable? you dont have any knowledge on Lich king and neither does anyone about his current powers....(except Blizzard ofc). For all we know, Lich King is already putting his plans in motion into destroying all his enemies, i think i read somewhere that hes planning to exterminate all life on Azeroth, its also Debatable wether Goddess elune is one Azeroth, since its she who he is also intending to destroy, she is the only true Godess i can think of or being of God level i can think of atm.

Violent2Dope
But he is not Sargeras level. I achieved lulz from reading you say that.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Violent2Dope
But he is not Sargeras level. I achieved lulz from reading you say that.


what? who said anything about anyone being Sargerus level

Violent2Dope
Originally posted by Burning thought
what? who said anything about anyone being Sargerus level You did first page. stick out tongue

Burning thought
Originally posted by Violent2Dope
You did first page. stick out tongue

i said for all we know he could be, i was simply playing on the fact people are being so definite in Kiljaeden being such an uber being when to my knowledge he has not ever even used much power or has any proof he is so great in power, the contraints he has shows his power is not so brilliant. Yet people are almost definite when we have no knowledge on how powerful LK is right now


i think Elune>Killy and Lich king plans on killing her, its also stated he is the strongest being in Azeroth, Elune is sort of in Azeroth, she is at least a frequent here

i know planning does not mean doing but LK is not the sort to go on a wild goose chase if he knew he had no chance, if it was an orc planning to do this or a mere human i would ignore them but since its LK who is incredibly intelligent and stated to be most powerful in Azeroth, i feel almost sure he is certainly not going to definaltey lose to Killy

Violent2Dope
Originally posted by Burning thought
i said for all we know he could be, i was simply playing on the fact people are being so definite in Kiljaeden being such an uber being when to my knowledge he has not ever even used much power or has any proof he is so great in power, the contraints he has shows his power is not so brilliant. Yet people are almost definite when we have no knowledge on how powerful LK is right now You think that Killy doesn't deserve all the hype he gets, and still think he beats Pyron? no expression

I agree tho, we have no idea what their power levels are.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Violent2Dope
You think that Killy doesn't deserve all the hype he gets, and still think he beats Pyron? no expression

I agree tho, we have no idea what their power levels are.

dont remember saying he beats a full powered pyron, the fact of the matter is that Kiljaeden can do stuff with magic and souls and we know Pyron doesnt think much of magic at all and has been beaten by it before

wheras LK nor Killy have such written in stone power levels or weaknesses, especially LK

Violent2Dope
Originally posted by Burning thought
dont remember saying he beats a full powered pyron, the fact of the matter is that Kiljaeden can do stuff with magic and souls and we know Pyron doesnt think much of magic at all and has been beaten by it before

wheras LK nor Killy have such written in stone power levels or weaknesses, especially LK 1. It's not so much he doesn't think much of it, he just didn't know anything about it, it was sumthin entirely new to him.

2. Well, Killy's weakness would be Orc shamans. big grin

Fuddle
Originally posted by Burning thought
exactley, always using pawns, he has never in the games at least attacked himself an opponent no matter if his pawns fail, always does he use others. He gets slaped the face by the King and the lich king knows he cant do anything about it, the Lich king has planned ahead all along, i think Kil'jaeden has made a big mistake.

Needed, ofc he needed them, otherwise he would not of wanted them, a want always comes from a need, even if he just needed some servants, yet he keeps using these pawns, never his powers, which ive seen nought of....

Overcame? who has he Overcome, its Lich king who has overcome foes with intellect and beaten down his Jailers. Unimaginable powers? when please, show me when he shows unimaginable power. Now your dragging it, best of the better means nothing...most powerful, please show me when? so far all hes done is plan and scheme and some of the schemes have gone down the drain


nopes, i dont think the Lich King fears anything now, he is simply unconcerned of Kil'jaeden especially not in size, Argewyn the guardian did not fear Sargerus himself, what makes you think the ancient Orc and now incredible mind powered being that is Lich king would be fearful of Kiljaedens size. Incapable? you dont have any knowledge on Lich king and neither does anyone about his current powers....(except Blizzard ofc). For all we know, Lich King is already putting his plans in motion into destroying all his enemies, i think i read somewhere that hes planning to exterminate all life on Azeroth, its also Debatable wether Goddess elune is one Azeroth, since its she who he is also intending to destroy, she is the only true Godess i can think of or being of God level i can think of atm.

He uses others because he can. He does not need to use others. The more that serve Kil'Jaeden, the less will he have to fight. He is smart beyond many others in the warcraft world, and the more people he has fighting under his command, the mightier is the Burning Legion. Kil'jaeden was not brought in to simply destroy. Sargeras saw his intellectual potentials and had him speak in the Burning Legion's behalf. He was taken in to lead in Sargeras place. Any enforcement he can add to the Burning Legion, he does add. Why destroy people when he can have them join him? If he did not join in with the orcs, they would have fought him and the legion, which would be a delay to his master plan (See Rise of the Horde)

I have no scanner, so if you do not believe in my words then that is your choice. Kil'Jaeden was granted unimaginable powers far above what he once had. He has powers that lies not within the boundaries of physical and magical ability, but in his mind. He expands at all time and most things that his mind is capable of in theory make happen, so can he make it happen. If he wish to destroy a mountain and in theory knows how this could happen, then his magical capabilities would allow so to occur.
Or he can simply shapeshift himself to a size double the mountain and rip it out of the ground with brute force (See Shadow and Light)

Trough the entire Rise of the Horde book, Ner'Zhul trembled before Kil'Jaeden. Even when Kil'Jaeden acted in kindless was Ner'Zhul afraid of him. Kil'Jaeden had forseen the betray of Ner'Zhul and yes, he flawed for putting someone as intelligent as Ner'Zhul in the frozen cascade. However, even though he granted Ner'Zhul the power to control undead and that combined with the power that Ner'Zhul already had and then the powers of Arthas. He may have expanded, but he has not expanded above Kil'Jaeden. He breached the enchantment that bound him to Kil'Jaeden and the Burning Legion. He regained a will of his own and expanded in mind, but the two are somewhat equal in intellect. No way can he exceed one that is only limited to the boundries of his mind.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Fuddle
He uses others because he can. He does not need to use others. The more that serve Kil'Jaeden, the less will he have to fight. He is smart beyond many others in the warcraft world, and the more people he has fighting under his command, the mightier is the Burning Legion. Kil'jaeden was not brought in to simply destroy. Sargeras saw his intellectual potentials and had him speak in the Burning Legion's behalf. He was taken in to lead in Sargeras place. Any enforcement he can add to the Burning Legion, he does add. Why destroy people when he can have them join him? If he did not join in with the orcs, they would have fought him and the legion, which would be a delay to his master plan (See Rise of the Horde)

I have no scanner, so if you do not believe in my words then that is your choice. Kil'Jaeden was granted unimaginable powers far above what he once had. He has powers that lies not within the boundaries of physical and magical ability, but in his mind. He expands at all time and most things that his mind is capable of in theory make happen, so can he make it happen. If he wish to destroy a mountain and in theory knows how this could happen, then his magical capabilities would allow so to occur.
Or he can simply shapeshift himself to a size double the mountain and rip it out of the ground with brute force (See Shadow and Light)

Trough the entire Rise of the Horde book, Ner'Zhul trembled before Kil'Jaeden. Even when Kil'Jaeden acted in kindless was Ner'Zhul afraid of him. Kil'Jaeden had forseen the betray of Ner'Zhul and yes, he flawed for putting someone as intelligent as Ner'Zhul in the frozen cascade. However, even though he granted Ner'Zhul the power to control undead and that combined with the power that Ner'Zhul already had and then the powers of Arthas. He may have expanded, but he has not expanded above Kil'Jaeden. He breached the enchantment that bound him to Kil'Jaeden and the Burning Legion. He regained a will of his own and expanded in mind, but the two are somewhat equal in intellect. No way can he exceed one that is only limited to the boundries of his mind.


prove he does not need them, seems pretty likely he needs them to me, and all this unimaginable powers means nothing, because that has been said about many beings, unless theres a source of this power i can see him useing that someone can show me then ill take it into consideration. He is constantly useing pawns and apprently although he is incredible intellectual...he continues...to use pawns even though they fail him over and over again, he obviously is not as intelligent as people think since even though he is losing ground because of pawns he continues to use them.

okie someone please who does have a scanner show me a feat, not words saying he has unimaginble power because it means nothing, an actual feat of him destroying, or using magic. Also ime curious in seeing a scan of where it says about this mind ability.

yes he wouod wouldnt he...hes a small Orc, yet he still has all this guile and cunning to keep escaping and bothering kiljaeden even as a mere Orc, unfortunatley he gets cought in the end. But what does Killy do? make him even more powerful...oh joy. Also prove he has not expanded over Killy....thats simply your opinion again, we do not know how much he has expanded in comparison to Killy from the beginning.

Fuddle
Originally posted by Burning thought
prove he does not need them, seems pretty likely he needs them to me, and all this unimaginable powers means nothing, because that has been said about many beings, unless theres a source of this power i can see him useing that someone can show me then ill take it into consideration. He is constantly useing pawns and apprently although he is incredible intellectual...he continues...to use pawns even though they fail him over and over again, he obviously is not as intelligent as people think since even though he is losing ground because of pawns he continues to use them.

okie someone please who does have a scanner show me a feat, not words saying he has unimaginble power because it means nothing, an actual feat of him destroying, or using magic. Also ime curious in seeing a scan of where it says about this mind ability.

yes he wouod wouldnt he...hes a small Orc, yet he still has all this guile and cunning to keep escaping and bothering kiljaeden even as a mere Orc, unfortunatley he gets cought in the end. But what does Killy do? make him even more powerful...oh joy. Also prove he has not expanded over Killy....thats simply your opinion again, we do not know how much he has expanded in comparison to Killy from the beginning.

Where in the world have you gotten all this 'information'? Ner'Zhul never stood a chance against Kil'jaeden. He has never been a bother to Kil'Jaeden. He even rated himself as chanceless against The Beautiful One. He never escaped Kil'Jaeden either. When he decided not to serve Kil'Jaeden anymore, he did not dare to run away because the anger of Kil'Jaeden would be the end of the orcish race. Kil'Jaeden would have taken revenge on Ner'Zhuls united clans. He even considered suicide because he thought that it would be a better fate than facing the anger of Kil'Jaeden.

Whatever source you use for this discussion, I suggest you look the source up somewhat. Many of the things you have said, and keep on saying is inaccurate. Have you even read the book?

Burning thought
Originally posted by Fuddle
Where in the world have you gotten all this 'information'? Ner'Zhul never stood a chance against Kil'jaeden. He has never been a bother to Kil'Jaeden. He even rated himself as chanceless against The Beautiful One. He never escaped Kil'Jaeden either. When he decided not to serve Kil'Jaeden anymore, he did not dare to run away because the anger of Kil'Jaeden would be the end of the orcish race. Kil'Jaeden would have taken revenge on Ner'Zhuls united clans. He even considered suicide because he thought that it would be a better fate than facing the anger of Kil'Jaeden.

Whatever source you use for this discussion, I suggest you look the source up somewhat. Many of the things you have said, and keep on saying is inaccurate. Have you even read the book?

what are you talking about....he did escape Kil'jaeden, he refused to help Kiljaeden in the end and he travled across worlds and it was only until he went through the final portal when Kiljaeden actually cought him.

Ner'Zhul is also the Lich King....incase you did not know....the Lich King has thwarted Kiljaedens plans many times with his own, and the first of which was escpaing his jailers.

Fuddle
Originally posted by Burning thought
what are you talking about....he did escape Kil'jaeden, he refused to help Kiljaeden in the end and he travled across worlds and it was only until he went through the final portal when Kiljaeden actually cought him.

Ner'Zhul is also the Lich King....incase you did not know....the Lich King has thwarted Kiljaedens plans many times with his own, and the first of which was escpaing his jailers.

He chased Velen across worlds, not Ner'Zhul. He refused to help Kil'Jaeden yes, but he did not flee the location. It was Velen that was captured by Kil'Jaedens 'paws' and it was Velen who fled after being captured. It was Velen who traveled from one world to the other, constantly fleeing from Kil'Jaeden.

After the very first betrayal, Ner'Zhul almost approved of being a spectator as Kil'Jaeden corrupted the orcs. He stayed with the orcs trough major parts of the corruption but only as a spectator. Gul'Dan was assigned prime of the orcs after the treason of Ner'Zhul.

In case you did not know.




I know Ner'Zhul is the Lich King. Do you know who Ner'Zhul is? Does not seem like it.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Fuddle
He chased Velen across worlds, not Ner'Zhul. He refused to help Kil'Jaeden yes, but he did not flee the location. It was Velen that was captured by Kil'Jaedens 'paws' and it was Velen who fled after being captured. It was Velen who traveled from one world to the other, constantly fleeing from Kil'Jaeden.

After the very first betrayal, Ner'Zhul almost approved of being a spectator as Kil'Jaeden corrupted the orcs. He stayed with the orcs trough major parts of the corruption but only as a spectator. Gul'Dan was assigned prime of the orcs after the treason of Ner'Zhul.


I know Ner'Zhul is the Lich King. Do you know who Ner'Zhul is? Does not seem like it.

what? i wasnt talking about Velen, Velens an Eredar, were talking about Orcs, Ner'Zhuel the Orc did at some point flee from Kil'jaeden, in the storyline Killy doesnt randomly grab him up, he waits for him by a portal in secret and takes him, i think it was when Ner'zhul broke Outland with his spellwork portals and thought hed escaped and Kiljaeden was waiting

heres proof he needed the Orcs
Warcraft story
Kil'jaeden surmised that he needed a new force to weaken Azeroth's defenses before the Legion even set foot upon the world


Warcraft story
Yet the old shaman, sensing that his people would be enslaved to hatred forever, somehow resisted the demon's command

wow, Ner'zhuls quite strong, resisted a command from Kiljaeden...as an Orc this is ofc.....lawls...

it was only until Ner'zhul blew up Dreanor and went through into the twisting nether itself did Killy actually get him

i suggest you look up your own sources....

Fuddle
Originally posted by Burning thought
what? i wasnt talking about Velen, Velens an Eredar, were talking about Orcs, Ner'Zhuel the Orc did at some point flee from Kil'jaeden, in the storyline Killy doesnt randomly grab him up, he waits for him by a portal in secret and takes him, i think it was when Ner'zhul broke Outland with his spellwork portals and thought hed escaped and Kiljaeden was waiting

heres proof he needed the Orcs





wow, Ner'zhuls quite strong, resisted a command from Kiljaeden...as an Orc this is ofc.....lawls...

it was only until Ner'zhul blew up Dreanor and went through into the twisting nether itself did Killy actually get him

We are talking about the orcs, but you are talking about Velen while thinking you are talking about Ner'Zhul. Ner'Zhul fled ONCE from Kil'Jaeden while Velen fled from one world to the other. Ner'Zhul walked trough one portal, only to be caught on the other side. When he tried to flee, his run did not last for long. Kil'Jaeden was waiting for him, yes. However, I think you are confusing multiple historical events of warcraft. At least so it seems when you write many of your things.

What proof is that? Wikipedia? Some random warcraft site out on the web? I have a number of books and I have NEVER read that. He took the orcs under his 'wings' because he did not bother with the Draenei on his own. He did not even take them because he needed to assault Azeroth. His primary objective was to destroy the Draenei, but when everything else failed- Kil'Jaeden sent them to Azeroth because it was the command of Sargeras. They were not there to weaken the defense for the Burning Legion to enter. They WERE the Burning Legion. They went there- not because they were supposed to break down the defenses, but because they were starving. Sargeras opened the portal into Azeroth and the orcs rushed in with the belief that they would encounter a green world with food, lots of room and battles to bring forth.

Whoever wrote that 'proof' should be taught a lesson.


What did Ner'Zhul resist? Where in the world did you get that? Ner'Zhul did not sense it. He found parchments that indicated that they would corrupt the orcish race with demon blood. He was not even under Kil'Jaedens command when he found out about the orcish corruption plans.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Fuddle
We are talking about the orcs, but you are talking about Velen while thinking you are talking about Ner'Zhul. Ner'Zhul fled ONCE from Kil'Jaeden while Velen fled from one world to the other. Ner'Zhul walked trough one portal, only to be caught on the other side. When he tried to flee, his run did not last for long. Kil'Jaeden was waiting for him, yes. However, I think you are confusing multiple historical events of warcraft. At least so it seems when you write many of your things.

What proof is that? Wikipedia? Some random warcraft site out on the web? I have a number of books and I have NEVER read that. He took the orcs under his 'wings' because he did not bother with the Draenei on his own. He did not even take them because he needed to assault Azeroth. His primary objective was to destroy the Draenei, but when everything else failed- Kil'Jaeden sent them to Azeroth because it was the command of Sargeras. They were not there to weaken the defense for the Burning Legion to enter. They WERE the Burning Legion. They went there- not because they were supposed to break down the defenses, but because they were starving. Sargeras opened the portal into Azeroth and the orcs rushed in with the belief that they would encounter a green world with food, lots of room and battles to bring forth.

Whoever wrote that 'proof' should be taught a lesson.


What did Ner'Zhul resist? Where in the world did you get that? Ner'Zhul did not sense it. He found parchments that indicated that they would corrupt the orcish race with demon blood. He was not even under Kil'Jaedens command when he found out about the orcish corruption plans.

LMAO!! i love it when this happens, someone moans about my sources and then i get to do this...the terribly unreliable and random site is...

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/story/chapter3.html

laughing very bad Blizzard

tought a lesson? yeh Naughty Blizzard, perhaps you should ring em up or sumfin or email, tell em their stories wrong durlaugh
http://www.lafferty.ca/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/fail-24.jpg

Fuddle
Originally posted by Burning thought
LMAO!! i love it when this happens, someone moans about my sources and then i get to do this...the terribly unreliable and random site is...

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/story/chapter3.html

laughing very bad Blizzard

tought a lesson? yeh Naughty Blizzard, perhaps you should ring em up or sumfin or email, tell em their stories wrong durlaugh
http://www.lafferty.ca/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/fail-24.jpg

Get yourself the books (Shadow and Light, Rise of the Horde), is my advice. That which you use is a large, wordentangled summary of what happens.

First of all, Kil'jaeden was not frustrated. he was disappointed. Ner'Zhul did not sense the corruption at that point. He had just communicated with the spirits and learnt that Kil'Jaeden had been tricking him for months. Gul'Dan had spied on Ner'Zhul as he communicated with the spirits on the spiritual mountain and went straight to Kil'Jaeden- who for a brief moment did not believe it. They both appeared together in front of Ner'Zhul and Ner'Zhul was declared a traitor of Kil'Jaedens cause. Gul'Dan pledged himself at the very same moment and bowed for Kil'Jaeden as his new voice for the orcs.

I can declare that source as inaccurate even though it is their official homepage. If you had read the book before leading a discussion, you too would agree with me.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Fuddle
Get yourself the books (Shadow and Light, Rise of the Horde), is my advice. That which you use is a large, wordentangled summary of what happens.

I can declare that source as inaccurate even though it is their official homepage. If you had read the book before leading a discussion, you too would agree with me.

thats wonderful to say, go get the books and read them all, no i think ill wait until someone who already has the books can scan them in, otherwise id be wasting my time thank you very much, silly thing to say of you.

You declare the official story of Blizzard innaccurate, maybe the Books are just going round the houses, whta makes you think the books>>the official story, that story there tells us what happens quite clearly, if the books have gone a little crooked from the story there then its not my fault

Darth Extecute
Originally posted by Burning thought
thats wonderful to say, go get the books and read them all, no i think ill wait until someone who already has the books can scan them in, otherwise id be wasting my time thank you very much, silly thing to say of you.

You declare the official story of Blizzard innaccurate, maybe the Books are just going round the houses, whta makes you think the books>>the official story, that story there tells us what happens quite clearly, if the books have gone a little crooked from the story there then its not my fault

She's right, you know.. I can get you a scan.. I have the Rise of the Horde book..

You got any pages I should scan, Fuddle? I recognize a lot of what you say.. At least the parts from "Rise of the Horde"

Burning thought
Originally posted by Darth Extecute
She's right, you know.. I can get you a scan.. I have the Rise of the Horde book..

You got any pages I should scan, Fuddle? I recognize a lot of what you say.. At least the parts from "Rise of the Horde"

that may be so but id like to see what it says with my own eyes and what is your reason for thinking the books are over the official story on that page?

it sounds far less likely the Orcs are simply going to go along with the story, why would that be diffrent?, it says Ner'zhul defied the will of Kil'jaeden instead of succumbing and going bestial

Fuddle
Originally posted by Darth Extecute
She's right, you know.. I can get you a scan.. I have the Rise of the Horde book..

You got any pages I should scan, Fuddle? I recognize a lot of what you say.. At least the parts from "Rise of the Horde"

Licked! I will look the pages up and you can scan them smile

Originally posted by Burning thought
that may be so but id like to see what it says with my own eyes and what is your reason for thinking the books are over the official story on that page?

Because a summary can be eluding, while a book is the real deal. After all, your souce says it is from 'Rise of the Horde' smile

Burning thought
Originally posted by Fuddle
Because a summary can be eluding, while a book is the real deal. After all, your souce says it is from 'Rise of the Horde' smile

what do you mean the book is the real deal, what came first, the book or the official story on that page?

Fuddle
Alright! 192 and 193 from Rise of the Horde is the encounter between Gul'Dan, Kil'Jaeden and Ner'Zhul smile

I will come with more pages soon.

Originally posted by Burning thought
what do you mean the book is the real deal, what came first, the book or the official story on that page?

The book. That page is a summary of the book, if you did not know. Or do you not check up on your sources before you use them?

Burning thought
Originally posted by Fuddle
The book. That page is a summary of the book, if you did not know. Or do you not check up on your sources before you use them?


ime not so sure about the page being a summary of the book, since thats been there for a long time, the book was only published December 2006

however the front page does say the information may be out of date, in which case i am open to the books once Darth posts them in and proves it

Darth Extecute
192, 193

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b60/extecute/Namnlst-2kopiera.jpg

Burning thought
excellent, those pages tell me quite well and how much Ner'zhul was not afraid it seemed most of the time, he was always ready to defy Kil'jaeden

Kil'jaeden still had to wait until his wayward Orc had messed up that whats it called, begins with D and made it outland. i have not seen or read proof that Kiljaeden did it diffrently in the book

Fuddle
Great! Thanks a lot, newly discovered buddy smile

End of page 349 will show the real reason that the orcs marched into Azeroth. They did it out of own will and not because they had orders to lower the defense.

Fuddle
Originally posted by Burning thought
excellent, those pages tell me quite well and how much Ner'zhul was not afraid it seemed most of the time, he was always ready to defy Kil'jaeden

Kil'jaeden still had to wait until his wayward Orc had messed up that whats it called, begins with D and made it outland. i have not seen or read proof that Kiljaeden did it diffrently in the book

Draenor smile

He was terrified of Kil'Jaeden even there. But after he had learnt that Kil'jaeden was tricking him all along he wanted to commit suicide. He wanted to die, which was why he dared say against Kil'jaeden in the first place.

You want a scan of that too?

At his at that point current state, Ner'Zhul could have said the same things to an angered Sargeras if so was the case. He was terrified of Kil'jaeden and prayed that he would kill him for his words. It would save him from his shame and it would be quick. Kil'Jaeden kept him alive for the same reason that Ner'Zhul wanted to die. Because he wanted him to suffer and see how his people slowly was corrupted without he capable of doing anything about it.

Darth Extecute
End of 349

Sorry about the quality

Burning thought
whats funny is, Ner'Zhul as an Orc is completly irrelevent to this battle..but it was fun discussing it

i suppose we shall find out in this upcoming expansion, or better a book of the lore instead of having to go by WoW gameplay to see Lich Kings powers

Darth Extecute
Originally posted by Burning thought
whats funny is, Ner'Zhul as an Orc is completly irrelevent to this battle..but it was fun discussing it

i suppose we shall find out in this upcoming expansion, or better a book of the lore instead of having to go by WoW gameplay to see Lich Kings powers

There's no known real fact about Lich King in lore yet.. The only thing doable is speculations..

But it isnt irrelevant.. He expanded from that self, and then that self is what we'll have to calculate from.-.

Fuddle
Thank you for the scans. I think the point is proven for now, even though you would need to read the entire books to get it in whole. But what is shown is that the summary on their homepage is not fully reliable smile

Burning thought
Originally posted by Darth Extecute
There's no known real fact about Lich King in lore yet.. The only thing doable is speculations..

But it isnt irrelevant.. He expanded from that self, and then that self is what we'll have to calculate from.-.

its not quite as simple as that, his mind increased 10 thousand fold is all we know, other than that his skills compared to his Orc self seem completly diffrent

Fuddle
His mind expanded, yes. He was given control over undead. The only thing that has expanded is his awareness, physical, magical and mental capabilites. He can not expand what he does not have and this was what he expanded from:

- Vague shaman powers (Nearly no powers at all/no powers at all)
- Vague warlock magic

This is what he gained as Lich King:

- Lich magic (Necromancy, Dark Arts, Frost and Darkness magic)
- Telepathical powers
- Telekenetical powers
- Spiritual awareness
- Magical Enchantment (As long as he remained loyal to Kil'Jaeden. It is unknown what happend to these powers once he broke the pact with Kil'Jaeden, since he gained them trough a direct link that he broke)

What he then expand trough that 10.000 fold can only be guessed.


Does he expand above Kil'Jaeden? Not at all.

Kil'Jaeden was more powerful as a pure Eredar than Ner'Zhul ever was as a shaman.

Ner'Zhul expanded as said 10.000 fold
Kil'Jaeden expanded with limits only in his mind. In 'Rise of the Horde' he is said to hold limitless powers.

(Kil'jaeden has one of, or THE greatest mind in warcraft history)

EvilAngel
Okay it's offical, Kil'jaeden rapes the Lich King.

Djinn has spoken erm (biggest Warcraft geek i know going)

Fuddle
Originally posted by EvilAngel
Okay it's offical, Kil'jaeden rapes the Lich King.

Djinn has spoken erm (biggest Warcraft geek i know going)

Could you maybe elaborate that? smile

EvilAngel
Originally posted by Fuddle
Could you maybe elaborate that? smile

Points he made:

Kil'jaeden cannot create something more powerful than himself.

Kil'jaeden is ancient, experience and study would put him ahead of the Lich King in smarts and experience. Having decivided both bering that is the LK is proof

Kil'jaeden has un-azaroth-ly feats behind him.

If Kil'jaeden is weaker, why is LK coming out in WoW, not Kil'jaeden


finally the most obvious point he made.

Archimonde stormed through Azeroth as was almost unstoppable. LK isn't doingthat which is pretty much proof he cannot. Remembering Kil'jaeden > Archimonde

Burning thought
Originally posted by EvilAngel
Points he made:

Kil'jaeden cannot create something more powerful than himself.

Kil'jaeden is ancient, experience and study would put him ahead of the Lich King in smarts and experience. Having decivided both bering that is the LK is proof

Kil'jaeden has un-azaroth-ly feats behind him.

If Kil'jaeden is weaker, why is LK coming out in WoW, not Kil'jaeden


finally the most obvious point he made.

Archimonde stormed through Azeroth as was almost unstoppable. LK isn't doingthat which is pretty much proof he cannot. Remembering Kil'jaeden > Archimonde

sorry fuddle but ill ignore that last post you made, you simply stated opinions like "can he expand beyond killy: NO", which is simply your opinion, it is not known how much he has expanded

but anyway onto Angels points

well first, Killy cant make something stronger than himself? is there proof behind this? also more importantly, is everything that makes the lich king powerful completly devised by Killy, can you prove it if you think so?, Killy didnt exactley device LK escaping in the first place so obviously LK is going beyond what Killy first thought

not really, just because your Oldier your more intelligent......no, so if i was immortal and just sat on my back for 1000 years, that would make me smarter than Albert einstein?...no...LK mind expanded to ingredible limits, i have not read anywhere saying that Killy is smarter than the LK or a mind anything in comparison to what LK is....if ime wrong, plz correct me with a site or a book scan big grin

.....he has feats? show me...nobody so far has shown me destructive feats

Killy may indeed be coming out, maybe Killy just isnt Blizzards highest prioty, also its World of warcraft you seem to be talking about, where Archimonde is a supposedly lower tier boss than Illidan.....

what? he isnt doing that.....for all we know he is not stupid enough, we know what happened to Archimonde....Lich King is far greater in intellect, he isnt a being of this type, he is an intellectual, he may just be biding his time, a lot of characters dont simply go head on, also where would LK go head on to? if ime not mistaken he just wants the land to be of the dead doesnt he? i can imagine he is simply devising a plan other than running through foolishly and getting Earth magic raped.

EvilAngel
Originally posted by Burning thought
sorry fuddle but ill ignore that last post you made, you simply stated opinions like "can he expand beyond killy: NO", which is simply your opinion, it is not known how much he has expanded

but anyway onto Angels points

well first, Killy cant make something stronger than himself? is there proof behind this? also more importantly, is everything that makes the lich king powerful completly devised by Killy, can you prove it if you think so?, Killy didnt exactley device LK escaping in the first place so obviously LK is going beyond what Killy first thought

not really, just because your Oldier your more intelligent......no, so if i was immortal and just sat on my back for 1000 years, that would make me smarter than Albert einstein?...no...LK mind expanded to ingredible limits, i have not read anywhere saying that Killy is smarter than the LK or a mind anything in comparison to what LK is....if ime wrong, plz correct me with a site or a book scan big grin

.....he has feats? show me...nobody so far has shown me destructive feats

Killy may indeed be coming out, maybe Killy just isnt Blizzards highest prioty, also its World of warcraft you seem to be talking about, where Archimonde is a supposedly lower tier boss than Illidan.....

what? he isnt doing that.....for all we know he is not stupid enough, we know what happened to Archimonde....Lich King is far greater in intellect, he isnt a being of this type, he is an intellectual, he may just be biding his time, a lot of characters dont simply go head on, also where would LK go head on to? if ime not mistaken he just wants the land to be of the dead doesnt he? i can imagine he is simply devising a plan other than running through foolishly and getting Earth magic raped.

Hey! wow! i'm not debating!!!

I like LK too much to dabate against him

I'dm just saying those are the reasons my Wacracft geek of a friend said Kli would win. And i trust him so.

Burning thought
Originally posted by EvilAngel
Hey! wow! i'm not debating!!!

I like LK too much to dabate against him

I'dm just saying those are the reasons my Wacracft geek of a friend said Kli would win. And i trust him so.

oh okie laughing confused

Fuddle
Originally posted by EvilAngel
Points he made:

Kil'jaeden cannot create something more powerful than himself.

Kil'jaeden is ancient, experience and study would put him ahead of the Lich King in smarts and experience. Having decivided both bering that is the LK is proof

Kil'jaeden has un-azaroth-ly feats behind him.

If Kil'jaeden is weaker, why is LK coming out in WoW, not Kil'jaeden


finally the most obvious point he made.

Archimonde stormed through Azeroth as was almost unstoppable. LK isn't doingthat which is pretty much proof he cannot. Remembering Kil'jaeden > Archimonde

Which is understandable, since Kil'Jaeden has no real limit. He is among the most powerful none-titanic creatures smile

Experience is not guaranteed an asset. Watch how Arthas beat Illidan. Look at the point where Anveena beats Dar'Khan. Look at the point where Grom beats Mannoroth.

Lich King is not Azerothian either.

Kil'Jaeden is coming out in WoW.

Archimonde did so, yes. However, Kil'Jaeden will never do such a thing. Kil'Jaeden uses his brain, while Archimonde uses muscles. He could if he wanted to, but he will not because he thinks one step ahead. The fall of Archimonde was because of his recklessness. Not Kil'Jaeden nor Lich King is reckless.

I know we do not know much about Lich King yet, but what makes you so sure that he can not do so? Arthas did it, despite all the attempts to prevent him. Illidan did it, but was stopped by Arthas.

I am sorry, but even though I agree with the fact that Kil'Jaeden win this- I do not agree with your friend.

Fuddle
Originally posted by Burning thought
sorry fuddle but ill ignore that last post you made, you simply stated opinions like "can he expand beyond killy: NO", which is simply your opinion, it is not known how much he has expanded


I did not say that he can not. I said that he has not. But if you so strongly believe that he expanded beyond Kil'Jaeden and decided to ignore my points on why he did not, then please share your knowledge with me.

I for one do not think he can expand beyond a magical user without limits.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Fuddle
I did not say that he can not. I said that he has not. But if you so strongly believe that he expanded beyond Kil'Jaeden and decided to ignore my points on why he did not, then please share your knowledge with me.

I for one do not think he can expand beyond a magical user without limits.

you said

Originally posted by Fuddle
Does he expand above Kil'Jaeden? Not at all.


you dont know he has not, thats what i was saying, you seem to be saying things like this often, which you cannot prove he "has" not, since we dont know much about him at all at the moment

oh but he has limits, otherwise hed be ominpotent and would crush Sargerus, break through the protections of Azeroth by himself without aid and set the world to the flame

EvilAngel
I think we can all agree my opinion is right when i say

Lich King is way cooler than Kil'jaeden when it comes to appearance

Burning thought
Originally posted by EvilAngel
I think we can all agree my opinion is right when i say

Lich King is way cooler than Kil'jaeden when it comes to appearance


ahh now thats one definite big grin

Fuddle
http://www.wowwiki.com/images/7/7c/The_Lich_King.jpg

http://www.wowwiki.com/images/2/29/Kiljaedenallendilling.jpg

I say they are about equally cool smile

Fuddle
Originally posted by Burning thought
you said



you dont know he has not, thats what i was saying, you seem to be saying things like this often, which you cannot prove he "has" not, since we dont know much about him at all at the moment

oh but he has limits, otherwise hed be ominpotent and would crush Sargerus, break through the protections of Azeroth by himself without aid and set the world to the flame

He is has no limits of what he is capable of doing, but what he does has limits. Only as far as his mind can reach, so vast is his power.

If he expanded his mind, he will expand his powers. However he has a great mind and that takes him a long way.

Kil'Jaeden omniponent? I will quote 'Rise of the Horde'

But he has potentials of being so.

EvilAngel
Meh Killy is a cooly, but

Arthas has the armor that is just the epimote of what an human evil villain should look like. They the sword *drools* in terms of appearence, i'd actually say it's the best looking villain i've seen (Human only, i know he isn't human techincally but the body is so good enough)

Fuddle
He is human in every perspective smile

EvilAngel
Originally posted by Fuddle
He is human in every perspective smile

a corpse walking & talking is an undead stick out tongue

His mind is mainly an Orc

Fuddle
His spirit is combined with an orc, but he is both living and human so he is in theory and body still human. He has to die in order to not be considered human anymore smile

Medivh's mind was mainly Sargeras, but you do not see people run around calling Medivh a dark titan stick out tongue

EvilAngel
Originally posted by Fuddle
His spirit is combined with an orc, but he is both living and human so he is in theory and body still human. He has to die in order to not be considered human anymore smile

Medivh's mind was mainly Sargeras, but you do not see people run around calling Medivh a dark titan stick out tongue

heir minds merged. Though Mer'zhuls mind and will was much more powerful than Arthas's so i thik it's main Ner'zhul in control now.

And i'm such Arthas Death Knight was an undead.

Fuddle
Sargeras was in control of Medivh. So what you are saying is that Medivh was a dark titan stick out tongue

Arthas Death Knight was not undead.

EvilAngel
Originally posted by Fuddle
Sargeras was in control of Medivh. So what you are saying is that Medivh was a dark titan stick out tongue

Arthas Death Knight was not undead.

No, he was possess by a dark titan.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Fuddle
He is has no limits of what he is capable of doing, but what he does has limits. Only as far as his mind can reach, so vast is his power.

If he expanded his mind, he will expand his powers. However he has a great mind and that takes him a long way.

Kil'Jaeden omniponent? I will quote 'Rise of the Horde'

But he has potentials of being so.


theres no feats to consider this, what possible makes you think he has no limits on what he is capable of doing, you contradidcted yourself in the same post....he has no limits on what he is capable of doing..but what he does has limits.....wtf indeed

no he has no potenstial of being omnipotent

Fuddle
Originally posted by EvilAngel
No, he was possess by a dark titan.

Yes, he was. He although was in control of Medivh's mind and that is exactly how the link between Lich King and Arthas works smile

The only difference is that Arthas made the choice stick out tongue

Originally posted by Burning thought
theres no feats to consider this, what possible makes you think he has no limits on what he is capable of doing, you contradidcted yourself in the same post....he has no limits on what he is capable of doing..but what he does has limits.....wtf indeed

no he has no potenstial of being omnipotent

Sigh. You do not have the most extended vocabulary there is, eh? stick out tongue

Contradict
To assert or express the opposite of (a statement).
Capable
Permitting an action to be performed: an error capable of remedy: Potentiality
Does
To carry out; commit

Just because he has the potentials of something, does not neccessarily mean that he can do it at that very moment smile

He has great potentials of being omnipotent. If you are so certain that he has no potentials, prove it. Since you OBVIOUOSLY have read the books that involve Kil'Jaeden and you OBVIOUSLY know so much about him.

(I was being sarcastic there stick out tongue)

Burning thought
Originally posted by Fuddle



Sigh. You do not have the most extended vocabulary there is, eh? stick out tongue

Contradict
To assert or express the opposite of (a statement).
Capable
Permitting an action to be performed: an error capable of remedy: Potentiality
Does
To carry out; commit

Just because he has the potentials of something, does not neccessarily mean that he can do it at that very moment smile

He has great potentials of being omnipotent. If you are so certain that he has no potentials, prove it. Since you OBVIOUOSLY have read the books that involve Kil'Jaeden and you OBVIOUSLY know so much about him.

(I was being sarcastic there stick out tongue)


erm yeh, i know what it means, you said he cannot, then you say he can...thats contradition..

he does not have limits, but then he does, also if he has the potenstials whats stopping him? potenstials of waht exactley?

no your being foolish there, i have not read the books, but i know him well enough to know he would not be Omnipotent, there is no force in Warcraft that is, let alone an Erdedar becoming powerful enough to wipe away the Warcraft universe in one stroke, there is no possible potential....you cant prove a negative, its your point to prove since its your statement he has the potenstial to become ominpotent

Fuddle
Originally posted by Burning thought
erm yeh, i know what it means, you said he cannot, then you say he can...thats contradition..

he does not have limits, but then he does, also if he has the potenstials whats stopping him? potenstials of waht exactley?

no your being foolish there, i have not read the books, but i know him well enough to know he would not be Omnipotent, there is no force in Warcraft that is, let alone an Erdedar becoming powerful enough to wipe away the Warcraft universe in one stroke, there is no possible potential....you cant prove a negative, its your point to prove since its your statement he has the potenstial to become ominpotent

It is not contradicting. You just do not use your mind as well as you could stick out tongue
To be capable of one thing, does not mean one can do it at one specific moment. Take Gul'Dan for example: He was capable of learning warlock magic. He had the potentials, but he did not know it for a long time of his life, until it came to him.

What is keeping him back, is his mind. He may be intellectual, but so far can his mind not handle a power so huge as omnipotence. He is limited to the boundries of his mind (Shadows and Light) He can not be omnipotent, because he does not know how it works. He can destroy a human with the wave of his finger, because he knows how to do so. He can not destroy a planet, because he does not know how to do so. However if he knows how to destroy a planet in theory, he is capable to actually do it. But now he does not know, therefore his mind has to expand to new levels before he can become somewhat near omnipotence.

You know him well enough? You claimed he persuaded Ner'Zhul across worlds. You claimed he has just about no powers, simply because he has not been using them. That he actually NEEDED the orcs to fulfill his means.

Kil'Jaeden could obliterate Azeroth. Not the planet itself, but no character on Azeroth would be capable of stopping him. Look at Archimonde and then think for a while. What would someone that has greater powers than Archimonde be capable of pulling trough? Archimonde was defeated only because he was arrogant, reckless and depended too much on his invournability.

You are asking how an Eredar would be capable of it? How would an ORC ever be capable of becoming more powerful than an Eredar?

A normal Eredar exceed a normal orc by far. Kil'Jaeden is no normal Eredar. Ner'Zhul on the other hand, is a somewhat normal Orc.


No, you are right. There is no omnipotent being in warcraft. That does not mean there can not be one. I am not saying that Kil'Jaeden will ever become omnipotent, since his shade will be fightable in the next expansion. However, that does not disprove the fact that he has the potentials.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Fuddle
It is not contradicting. You just do not use your mind as well as you could stick out tongue
To be capable of one thing, does not mean one can do it at one specific moment. Take Gul'Dan for example: He was capable of learning warlock magic. He had the potentials, but he did not know it for a long time of his life, until it came to him.

What is keeping him back, is his mind. He may be intellectual, but so far can his mind not handle a power so huge as omnipotence. He is limited to the boundries of his mind (Shadows and Light) He can not be omnipotent, because he does not know how it works. He can destroy a human with the wave of his finger, because he knows how to do so. He can not destroy a planet, because he does not know how to do so. However if he knows how to destroy a planet in theory, he is capable to actually do it. But now he does not know, therefore his mind has to expand to new levels before he can become somewhat near omnipotence.

You know him well enough? You claimed he persuaded Ner'Zhul across worlds. You claimed he has just about no powers, simply because he has not been using them. That he actually NEEDED the orcs to fulfill his means.

Kil'Jaeden could obliterate Azeroth. Not the planet itself, but no character on Azeroth would be capable of stopping him. Look at Archimonde and then think for a while. What would someone that has greater powers than Archimonde be capable of pulling trough? Archimonde was defeated only because he was arrogant, reckless and depended too much on his invournability.

You are asking how an Eredar would be capable of it? How would an ORC ever be capable of becoming more powerful than an Eredar?

A normal Eredar exceed a normal orc by far. Kil'Jaeden is no normal Eredar. Ner'Zhul on the other hand, is a somewhat normal Orc.


No, you are right. There is no omnipotent being in warcraft. That does not mean there can not be one. I am not saying that Kil'Jaeden will ever become omnipotent, since his shade will be fightable in the next expansion. However, that does not disprove the fact that he has the potentials.

you do not use yours at all it seems stick out tongue thats what you said regardless, but maybe its because you did not use best english and put it in an odd way, for example you said "he is has no limits"
that is an irrelevent example, capable of warlock magic but not until it came to him? makes no sense ,the potensial of a being is judged when that being attempts something, it doesnt know it has the pottenstial, nobody would know Guldan has the potential until he had actually showed ability in doing it or anything close.
Its like saying to any human, no matter how dumb or smart you have the potential just because your a human and can learn...saying to a farmer who has worked on a field for years and known only a farm life has the potential but then looking at it that way, any Orc would have the potential.

can this be proven please, that if he knows how something works he can do it with his magic...his magic has no limits? sounds like rubbish to me....And no he will never become near omnipotent, that would mean almost everything but omnipotence which Killy would never be able to handle, hed prob end up setting up plans and like usuall theyd collaps, only theyd collapse on top of him if he tried to grasp omniptence

no character? another no proof rubbish again....Yes i look at Archimonde, his bones are lieing on Mount Hyjal..erm...perhaps keep his flesh a little long and lay across mount Hyjal before turning to bone, you tell me with your uber knowledge of Kiljaeden, what powers does he have over Archimonde? all you have is that he is stronger or greater but do you have an amount, what if Archimonde was just a 6 but Killy a 7, the diffrence would not be so great, what do you have that possibly makes you think he would stomp Azeroths beings. Ofc once again this is an assumption of yours without weight, you say it too definatley. How do you think he would defeat Elune? the Goddess, all the Aspects?

erm, through the unwitting help from an Eredar? Lich King is no Orc any longer......however an Undead King and being of the spiritual, hell he could be stronger for all we know. He certainly played a hand Kiljaeden didnt think of, Unerestimating Lich King Kiljaeden does.

Ner'zhul is a normal orc.......okieeeeee i suggest you read through your own informaton

Utrigita
Originally posted by Burning thought
can this be proven please, that if he knows how something works he can do it with his magic...his magic has no limits? sounds like rubbish to me....And no he will never become near omnipotent, that would mean almost everything but omnipotence which Killy would never be able to handle, hed prob end up setting up plans and like usuall theyd collaps, only theyd collapse on top of him if he tried to grasp omniptence

The only planes that have failed for him so far is his way to deal with the lich king and the orcs, two mistakes since he was recruited by Sargares for more then 12000 years ago...

no character? another no proof rubbish again....Yes i look at Archimonde, his bones are lieing on Mount Hyjal..erm...perhaps keep his flesh a little long and lay across mount Hyjal before turning to bone, you tell me with your uber knowledge of Kiljaeden, what powers does he have over Archimonde? all you have is that he is stronger or greater but do you have an amount, what if Archimonde was just a 6 but Killy a 7, the diffrence would not be so great, what do you have that possibly makes you think he would stomp Azeroths beings. Ofc once again this is an assumption of yours without weight, you say it too definatley. How do you think he would defeat Elune? the Goddess, all the Aspects?

In the Eredar sociaty all hierarchy is purely based on the magical capacity of the being in question the fact alone that Kil'Jaeden was selected above Archimonde should IMO give a clear view of just how strong he is. Elune is ranking around the same place as Malorne and he was defeated by Archimonde, without leaving a lasting mark on the eredar.

erm, through the unwitting help from an Eredar? Lich King is no Orc any longer......however an Undead King and being of the spiritual, hell he could be stronger for all we know. He certainly played a hand Kiljaeden didnt think of, Unerestimating Lich King Kiljaeden does.

He hasn't underestimated him but he hadn't accounted to maiev seeking out Illidan, els the Lich King would be dead, and Azeroth with him.

Also Burning Thought with basically a word the Lich kings authority over the undead was removed by Archimonde.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Utrigita
The only planes that have failed for him so far is his way to deal with the lich king and the orcs, two mistakes since he was recruited by Sargares for more then 12000 years ago...



In the Eredar sociaty all hierarchy is purely based on the magical capacity of the being in question the fact alone that Kil'Jaeden was selected above Archimonde should IMO give a clear view of just how strong he is. Elune is ranking around the same place as Malorne and he was defeated by Archimonde, without leaving a lasting mark on the eredar.



He hasn't underestimated him but he hadn't accounted to maiev seeking out Illidan, els the Lich King would be dead, and Azeroth with him.

Also Burning Thought with basically a word the Lich kings authority over the undead was removed by Archimonde.

"shrug" although it "sounds" impressive, how can we be sure..maybe they are simply not menstioned, if on this one world he has had several plans gone wrong, we cant assume on every planet he has not had plans go wrong...

i respect his ranking and his "possible" power but every being on Azeroth i doubt, also what gives Elune this ranking is she not a Goddess who could overpower most..Darth and I i feel had that idea, Darth seemed to think highly of her

true but everything seems very conveniant, the Lich King seems incredibly intelligent, he seems to know things across the world, for example did he not talk to Kelthuzard across the far reaches, corrupting him. He seems to be able to see the whole world almost.

thats fair enough but thats like tkaing away necromantic magic from undead beings, defeating the lich king himself however at the same time as him being fusion form now, being so much more powerful than before, id certainly never for definate put Killy over him

Utrigita
Originally posted by Burning thought
"shrug" although it "sounds" impressive, how can we be sure..maybe they are simply not menstioned, if on this one world he has had several plans gone wrong, we cant assume on every planet he has not had plans go wrong...

If there had been more then one incident then he would have been dead before the invason of the orcs. Sargares doesn't tolerate more then one failer.

i respect his ranking and his "possible" power but every being on Azeroth i doubt, also what gives Elune this ranking is she not a Goddess who could overpower most..Darth and I i feel had that idea, Darth seemed to think highly of her

His possible power is well documentated to be above Archimondes. Ask Darth if he cannot post his stats from the Shadows and Light, I would love to but I doesn't have a scanner. Elune is said to be on the same level as Malorne according to what I know and Malorne powerful as he was, was defeated by Archimonde.

true but everything seems very conveniant, the Lich King seems incredibly intelligent, he seems to know things across the world, for example did he not talk to Kelthuzard across the far reaches, corrupting him. He seems to be able to see the whole world almost.

You think that is impressive telepathy??? During the war of the ancient Archimonde contacted every demon in Azeroth to inform them that the dragons was on there way, and Malfurion which is below the Lich King was capable of seeing all of Northren while being located in Lordaron. And a fact that helped Ner'Zhul was the conveniant circumstance that Kelthuzad was already studying the necromatic arts.


thats fair enough but thats like tkaing away necromantic magic from undead beings, defeating the lich king himself however at the same time as him being fusion form now, being so much more powerful than before, id certainly never for definate put Killy over him

How do you know that his fusion form made him more powerful? (dumb Question but I would like to ask you this)

Burning thought
Originally posted by Utrigita
If there had been more then one incident then he would have been dead before the invason of the orcs. Sargares doesn't tolerate more then one failer.



His possible power is well documentated to be above Archimondes. Ask Darth if he cannot post his stats from the Shadows and Light, I would love to but I doesn't have a scanner. Elune is said to be on the same level as Malorne according to what I know and Malorne powerful as he was, was defeated by Archimonde.



You think that is impressive telepathy??? During the war of the ancient Archimonde contacted every demon in Azeroth to inform them that the dragons was on there way, and Malfurion which is below the Lich King was capable of seeing all of Northren while being located in Lordaron. And a fact that helped Ner'Zhul was the conveniant circumstance that Kelthuzad was already studying the necromatic arts.




How do you know that his fusion form made him more powerful? (dumb Question but I would like to ask you this)

"shrug" that may be true but ime sure Sarg would not destroy his greatest general, also what makes you so sure he would take out killy without any thought, although he is a rogue titan who wants to destroy, ime sure he would understand destroying his top general is not a good strategy

oh i belive he is above archimonde, but i am interested in seeing how much. Hm well if she really is the same level as malorne it is odd...she seems so much more powerful, like a true deity.

yes, although what you said to me does not seem that impressive, no more impressive than Lich kings initial link with all his undead, he could undoubtably do the same with his undead, He seems to be able to see beings across the planet, like hes watching over all events.

smile it is a little odd, mainly because why would he become weaker when he gets out of the throne, if anything i think the throne is more likely to be imprisoning his power, now he is free, he should be able to manipualte his power far greater. Also the quote

Warcraft 3 frozen throne ending
In that moment, Ner'zhul and Arthas' spirits fused into a single mighty being, just as the Lich King had always planned. And thus one of the most powerful entities on Azeroth was born.

its unlikely he would become one of the most powerful entities born, if he had been stronger before would it? big grin

also please answer me this, he is considered this Lich king to be most powerful being on Azeroth, so....surely if his power is the greatest on azeroth, beyond Aspects, Dragons and all the other mighty beings, possibly even Elune (only arguably she does not excist on the world so to speak). Surely if he has more power than any being on Azeroth, he could of used this power to destroy Archimonde even more than Malfurions summon the Earth magics. If his power is greater than anything on Azeroth surely Killy would not stop him so easily if at all, even if he is stronger than Archi.

Fuddle
Originally posted by Burning thought
you do not use yours at all it seems stick out tongue thats what you said regardless, but maybe its because you did not use best english and put it in an odd way, for example you said "he is has no limits"
that is an irrelevent example, capable of warlock magic but not until it came to him? makes no sense ,the potensial of a being is judged when that being attempts something, it doesnt know it has the pottenstial, nobody would know Guldan has the potential until he had actually showed ability in doing it or anything close.
Its like saying to any human, no matter how dumb or smart you have the potential just because your a human and can learn...saying to a farmer who has worked on a field for years and known only a farm life has the potential but then looking at it that way, any Orc would have the potential.

can this be proven please, that if he knows how something works he can do it with his magic...his magic has no limits? sounds like rubbish to me....And no he will never become near omnipotent, that would mean almost everything but omnipotence which Killy would never be able to handle, hed prob end up setting up plans and like usuall theyd collaps, only theyd collapse on top of him if he tried to grasp omniptence

no character? another no proof rubbish again....Yes i look at Archimonde, his bones are lieing on Mount Hyjal..erm...perhaps keep his flesh a little long and lay across mount Hyjal before turning to bone, you tell me with your uber knowledge of Kiljaeden, what powers does he have over Archimonde? all you have is that he is stronger or greater but do you have an amount, what if Archimonde was just a 6 but Killy a 7, the diffrence would not be so great, what do you have that possibly makes you think he would stomp Azeroths beings. Ofc once again this is an assumption of yours without weight, you say it too definatley. How do you think he would defeat Elune? the Goddess, all the Aspects?

erm, through the unwitting help from an Eredar? Lich King is no Orc any longer......however an Undead King and being of the spiritual, hell he could be stronger for all we know. He certainly played a hand Kiljaeden didnt think of, Unerestimating Lich King Kiljaeden does.

Ner'zhul is a normal orc.......okieeeeee i suggest you read through your own informaton

I will not even begin to counter that. Get back to me when you have read the book and got some knowledge about the characters you discuss smile

Utrigita
Originally posted by Burning thought
"shrug" that may be true but ime sure Sarg would not destroy his greatest general, also what makes you so sure he would take out killy without any thought, although he is a rogue titan who wants to destroy, ime sure he would understand destroying his top general is not a good strategy

Kil'Jaeden wasn't his General Archimonde was Kil'Jaeden was the one tasked with expanding the legion, a task he filled to the letter and until the war of the ancient the Burning Legion hadn't met defeat in there unholy crusade, but the failure at the war of the ancient was placed on Kil'Jaeden and he knew that if he failed again he wouldn't get a second chance. And if Sargares wouldn't have died then Kil'Jaeden would already be death.

oh i belive he is above archimonde, but i am interested in seeing how much. Hm well if she really is the same level as malorne it is odd...she seems so much more powerful, like a true deity.

How many showings does she have since you say that she seems more powerful, also Wowwiki clearly states that even the Legion invaded she was powerless to stop it hmm...

yes, although what you said to me does not seem that impressive, no more impressive than Lich kings initial link with all his undead, he could undoubtably do the same with his undead, He seems to be able to see beings across the planet, like hes watching over all events.

Thats because he is constantly linked with the undead Archimonde on the other hand isn't constantly linked with his demons and when the contact first is broken then the Lich King cannot restore the connection thats not very impressive for a deity of such power.

smile it is a little odd, mainly because why would he become weaker when he gets out of the throne, if anything i think the throne is more likely to be imprisoning his power, now he is free, he should be able to manipualte his power far greater. Also the quote

It's funny because the Crystal was the item that infused him with his increased power in the first place, one should think that now that the Crystal is no longer expanding his power it would came to a halt.

its unlikely he would become one of the most powerful entities born, if he had been stronger before would it? big grin

yes it would.

also please answer me this, he is considered this Lich king to be most powerful being on Azeroth, so....surely if his power is the greatest on azeroth, beyond Aspects, Dragons and all the other mighty beings, possibly even Elune (only arguably she does not excist on the world so to speak). Surely if he has more power than any being on Azeroth, he could of used this power to destroy Archimonde even more than Malfurions summon the Earth magics. If his power is greater than anything on Azeroth surely Killy would not stop him so easily if at all, even if he is stronger than Archi.

he is said to be on of the most powerful aspects on Azeroth not the most powerful (I wish I could post his stats sad ), to my knowlegde the Older Gods are still there, and Elune is said to be one of if not currently the most powerful deity on Azeroth and she was as earlier mentioned powerless to stop the Burning Legion during there the first invasion.

And this reference is given to Archimonde with the Lich King in mind.



So the fact that the Lich King gets it isn't mindblowing seeing as Archimonde is mentioned as being one of the most powerful beings to walk Azeroth.

Burning thought
well i concede this on the grounds of not knowing enough on Kiljaeden, i fairly admit that i have not read the books so if theres some special knowledge on him i lack i admit it

however i concede only until Lich kings stats are known well

Fuddle
You build yourself up for disappointment sad

Burning thought
Originally posted by Fuddle
You build yourself up for disappointment sad

build myself up? now your simply being insulting as if you feel you know so much more than me that its absolutley impossible for LK even though we dont know his fusion powers to be anything on Killy...i think ill just ignore posts like this in the future, they are made to provoke i feel it unessery

Diamond Kisses
lion

Fuddle
Originally posted by Burning thought
build myself up? now your simply being insulting as if you feel you know so much more than me that its absolutley impossible for LK even though we dont know his fusion powers to be anything on Killy...i think ill just ignore posts like this in the future, they are made to provoke i feel it unessery

How was that provokative? I was trying to warn (help) you that you will become disappointed. I know what disappointment feels like (Not fun) and you think too highly about this man. I am just trying to warn you not to do so. It will bite you in the butt.


You seem to see Lich King as a godlike character. I am sorry, but he is just a horribly advanced Lich.


You seem to think Ner'Zhul was some kind of SuperOrc. I am sorry, but Ner'Zhul is a whimp.

MadMel
BT is right, we cannot know for sure how this fight can turn out...we do not know the full extent of eithers powers..
also, your greatly underating the lichking erm

Burning thought
Originally posted by MadMel
BT is right, we cannot know for sure how this fight can turn out...we do not know the full extent of eithers powers..
also, your greatly underating the lichking erm

exactley Madmel

Fuddle i think its you with dreams of Killy becoming near omnipotent will be disapointed and it will probably be you who feels stunned when Blizzard decide to throw Killy against the wall and have LK destroy the last general of the Burning legion

you do not for all your book knowledge that you apprently have, have a grasp on the character that is the Lich King, also what do you mean Godlike? in Warcraft lore, technically LK is a God

Fuddle
How am I underating the Lich King?


He is powerful, I know that. As Blizzard have said themselves, one of the most powerful characters on Azeroth was born. Yes, he is powerful. One of the most powerful CURRENT characters on Azeroth.

He is not even near the most powerful character that have walked Azeroth. The pantheon has been there. Archimonde has been there. Medivh, Khadgar and Aegwynn has been there. The five aspects has been there.

Lich King can barely make it to top ten in AZEROTH history.

Fuddle
Originally posted by Burning thought
exactley Madmel

Fuddle i think its you with dreams of Killy becoming near omnipotent will be disapointed and it will probably be you who feels stunned when Blizzard decide to throw Killy against the wall and have LK destroy the last general of the Burning legion

you do not for all your book knowledge that you apprently have, have a grasp on the character that is the Lich King, also what do you mean Godlike? in Warcraft lore, technically LK is a God

I do not dream he will be omnipotent. I really hope that not he, nor anyone else in the warcraft world will ever become omnipotent. Kil'Jaeden is thrown into the new expansion, yes. You will intercept Kael'Thas before the summon is complete and battle a shade or so of Kil'Jaeden.


Technically, Lich King is a demi-God. Ragnaros too was worshipped, but he was not considered a God. At its prime, Ragnaros was a demi-God. I did not mean it like that at all, but you seem to think of Lich King as one of the most powerful character in Warcraft history. You say he match Kil'Jaeden, when he would not even be able to match Archimonde.

Burning thought
official texts such as the Warcraft 3 manual refer to him as the "godlike Lich King".

also technically he is a God, all it takes to be a God is two things, immortaity the Lich King has, and Worship, which he has in the Cult of the Damned. So technically he is a God

He could easily be one of the most powerful in Warcraft history, most of the strongest beings on the world are still on it, if he is counted among the strongest, then hell that makes him possibly even Old God level as they currently are, or Aspect level (although thats a bit low imo)

you say it with such definance that i think is foolish, he cannot match Archimonde? hes never battled Archimonde, who was destroyed by Earth powers summoned by Malfurion

your overhyping Eredar to insane levels who are simply incredibly clever and use illusions to play on the fears of enemies

Fuddle
Godlike? Maybe. He has the potentials. God? Not from my point of view.

Lich King is served, not worshipped. The Cult is under his command and I am not sure that is enough to make him a God. However, this has not yet been verified by Blizzard but I do not think he is a complete God. It takes a lot to become a God. Ragnaros is worshiped by hordes of people but he is no God. What would make Lich King different? Ragnaros is also immortal.

Most of the strongest beings? Like who? The Old Gods are banished. C'thun is FAAAAAR from his old self. Neltharion, Nozdormu and Ysera is not technically on Azeroth. Being aspect level is not low, but I do not think he exceed even that.


Earth powers? Malfurion summoned forth the ancestors of nature, used the power of nature to its full extent. He used the horn of Cenarius to bring them forth and created a blast powerful enough to annhiliate all near life. It is not a simple nature attack.


Overhyping? You are overhyping Ner'Zhul and the potentials of Lich King. What you just said rates him to titan/Old God level.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Fuddle
Godlike? Maybe. He has the potentials. God? Not from my point of view.

Lich King is served, not worshipped. The Cult is under his command and I am not sure that is enough to make him a God. However, this has not yet been verified by Blizzard but I do not think he is a complete God. It takes a lot to become a God. Ragnaros is worshiped by hordes of people but he is no God. What would make Lich King different? Ragnaros is also immortal.

Most of the strongest beings? Like who? The Old Gods are banished. C'thun is FAAAAAR from his old self. Neltharion, Nozdormu and Ysera is not technically on Azeroth. Being aspect level is not low, but I do not think he exceed even that.


Earth powers? Malfurion summoned forth the ancestors of nature, used the power of nature to its full extent. He used the horn of Cenarius to bring them forth and created a blast powerful enough to annhiliate all near life. It is not a simple nature attack.


Overhyping? You are overhyping Ner'Zhul and the potentials of Lich King. What you just said rates him to titan/Old God level.

Old God level perhaps, their currently as you said weakened greatly from before and going only by WoW difficulty he obviusly is far far more powerful than current Old Gods.

They serve and worship him, they are like fanatics some of the cult members, their not simply pawns taking orders they seem devoted to those orders even enough to sacrifce themselves. Nothing, Technically even if he is not considered, Ragnaros according to the rules of Worship and Immortality Ragnaros should be a God.

the Old Gods are still sentient, as you say Weakened massively but they are stil there as are the aspects, Malygos is in Northrend itself apprently

i did not say it was not powerful, but Lich King i quite strongly belive is>>>Malfurions power, especially now he is fusion, number the beings who are officially named Strongest on all of Azeroth, there are not huge numbers and i am quite sure no matter what books ive not read Malfurion is never named such, i doubt that Earth power attack is beyond anything LK can do.

as i said, Old Gods are weak now, he coud possibly be equel to their current forms. Also what did i say that rates him such as Titan, i never said anything about titans, the current old gods are nothing on Titans.

Fuddle
Originally posted by Burning thought
Old God level perhaps, their currently as you said weakened greatly from before and going only by WoW difficulty he obviusly is far far more powerful than current Old Gods.

They serve and worship him, they are like fanatics some of the cult members, their not simply pawns taking orders they seem devoted to those orders even enough to sacrifce themselves. Nothing, Technically even if he is not considered, Ragnaros according to the rules of Worship and Immortality Ragnaros should be a God.

the Old Gods are still sentient, as you say Weakened massively but they are stil there as are the aspects, Malygos is in Northrend itself apprently

i did not say it was not powerful, but Lich King i quite strongly belive is>>>Malfurions power, especially now he is fusion, number the beings who are officially named Strongest on all of Azeroth, there are not huge numbers and i am quite sure no matter what books ive not read Malfurion is never named such, i doubt that Earth power attack is beyond anything LK can do.

as i said, Old Gods are weak now, he coud possibly be equel to their current forms. Also what did i say that rates him such as Titan, i never said anything about titans, the current old gods are nothing on Titans.

C'thun being the only Old God on Azeroth, and he is weakened. This does not by default make Lich King of Old God level.

The Ragnaros worshippers are too fanatics, but that have not made Ragnaros God. I know that a God has to be immortal and Worshipped, but I believe that there is more to being a God than that. Otherwise we would have a lot of Gods running around. People get worshipped everywhere, and every Night Elf is immortal and therefore has God potentials. There has to be more to it than those two, or Ragnaros and many others would be considered Gods.

Hakkar is a God. Elune is a God. Legba is a God. Ogoun is a God. An'she is a God.

Ragnaros is not a God. I do not know what differ them from eachother, but I know that there takes something extra to become a God.


I know Malygos is in Northrend, and you get help from Alexstrasza to beat him.

Malfurion could never match with Lich King in power, I know this. But the power that defeated Archimonde was not Malfurion's. Malorne could not even scratch Archimonde before he was defeated and I doubt Malfurion could even scratch Malorne.

The Old Gods are a lot like the Titans. An Old God more or less match a Titan in strength.

Burning thought
Originally posted by Fuddle
C'thun being the only Old God on Azeroth, and he is weakened. This does not by default make Lich King of Old God level.

The Ragnaros worshippers are too fanatics, but that have not made Ragnaros God. I know that a God has to be immortal and Worshipped, but I believe that there is more to being a God than that. Otherwise we would have a lot of Gods running around. People get worshipped everywhere, and every Night Elf is immortal and therefore has God potentials. There has to be more to it than those two, or Ragnaros and many others would be considered Gods.

Hakkar is a God. Elune is a God. Legba is a God. Ogoun is a God. An'she is a God.

Ragnaros is not a God. I do not know what differ them from eachother, but I know that there takes something extra to become a God.


I know Malygos is in Northrend, and you get help from Alexstrasza to beat him.

Malfurion could never match with Lich King in power, I know this. But the power that defeated Archimonde was not Malfurion's. Malorne could not even scratch Archimonde before he was defeated and I doubt Malfurion could even scratch Malorne.

The Old Gods are a lot like the Titans. An Old God more or less match a Titan in strength.

fair enough on most points but i was not neccerily putting him on Old god level but his rank of one of the strongest on Azeroth "can" put him on the current level of an Old god or Aspects.

however Old Gods are powerful, but only in their prime, before the current time period, it was said that Sargerus i think was extremely fearful of the 5 old Gods, which is quite large meaning.

EvilAngel
Ragnaros is God-level in power at 100% he fought in the war between the Titan and Old gods. Ragnaros full power is beyond Kil'jaeden and the Lich King.

Sargeras is probably more powerful than any ONE of the old gods.

Fuddle
Of course Sargeras feared the five Old Gods. No sane person would NOT fear the five Old Gods smile

I believe that Sargeras could take on any one Old God and walk out relativly unharmed. However, two or more would intensify everything.

Fuddle
Originally posted by EvilAngel
Ragnaros is God-level in power at 100% he fought in the war between the Titan and Old gods. Ragnaros full power is beyond Kil'jaeden and the Lich King.

Sargeras is probably more powerful than any ONE of the old gods.

Indeed. Ragnaros fought direct combat with the Titans in the front lines at his strongest. However, even if he hold strength like the average God, he is no God.

EvilAngel
Originally posted by Fuddle
Of course Sargeras feared the five Old Gods. No sane person would NOT fear the five Old Gods smile

I believe that Sargeras could take on any one Old God and walk out relativly unharmed. However, two or more would intensify everything.

Yes indeedy

Originally posted by Fuddle
Indeed. Ragnaros fought direct combat with the Titans in the front lines at his strongest. However, even if he hold strength like the average God, he is no God.

God is a title stick out tongue Ragnaros held power beyond most gods.

and he might be, he is the greatest fire elemental is he not?

Burning thought
indeed at full power Raggy is likely be able to stomp both, (at least physically)

God ofcourse is only a title, it does not show a level of power and according to blizzards own rules you only need to be immortal and worshipped, so....wether it takes more or not i dont know and i cannt explain why Raggy is not called a God but its certainly only a title so its irrelevent really.

and indeed as Angel says, his power would basically be equel or beat most of the current Gods.

Fuddle
Originally posted by EvilAngel
Yes indeedy



God is a title stick out tongue Ragnaros held power beyond most gods.

and he might be, he is the greaters fire elemental is he not?

He is the greatest elemental, I believe.

I think he was rated above Al'Akir and the others.

EvilAngel
Random thought Kyuubi no Kitsune VS Full power Ragnaros......

When i say god from this point on, unless stated withwise i mean at god-level in power. Titles are just confusing, alright?

Burning thought
Originally posted by EvilAngel
Random thought Kyuubi no Kitsune VS Full power Ragnaros......

When i say god from this point on, unless stated withwise i mean at god-level in power. Titles are just confusing, alright?

indeed and titles are pointless, ofc since God is a title, how does God level power make it even less confusing, or do you mean on the level of most current Warcraft Gods

according to utriga, Elune the Goddess is no greater than Malorn

Fuddle
Elune and Malorne can hardly be compared. It is hard to at all rate the power of Elune.

EvilAngel
Originally posted by Burning thought
indeed and titles are pointless, ofc since God is a title, how does God level power make it even less confusing, or do you mean on the level of most current Warcraft Gods

according to utriga, Elune the Goddess is no greater than Malorn

Elune? she's stronger than Malorn, he's not terribly powerful.

Though compared to other gods, if she were forced to fight she is on the low of of the stick. Her powers of peace are awesome though happy

I mean on god power level, bit less than full Rag-man (i thought of that myself stick out tongue)

Fuddle
Malorne is powerful.

Burning thought
Originally posted by EvilAngel
Elune? she's stronger than Malorn, he's not terribly powerful.

Though compared to other gods, if she were forced to fight she is on the low of of the stick. Her powers of peace are awesome though happy

I mean on god power level, bit less than full Rag-man (i thought of that myself stick out tongue)

well thats what i thought, i doubt Malorn is anything on Elune but somehow utriga thinks she is, considering i have not read the books and dont know a huge amount on mr white stag or the moon goddess ime not sure


i prob missed your cleverness, all i think of when you said "Rag-man" is Sacrifice stick out tongue

EvilAngel
Originally posted by Burning thought
well thats what i thought, i doubt Malorn is anything on Elune but somehow utriga thinks she is, considering i have not read the books and dont know a huge amount on mr white stag or the moon goddess ime not sure


i prob missed your cleverness, all i think of when you said "Rag-man" is Sacrifice stick out tongue

Lol you got it stick out tongue Rag-man, also a way of shortening Ragnaros happy

I didn't mean Marlorne isn't powerful, but he's not much of Elune

Fuddle
He is far beyond many druids. He may not be comparable with Elune, but that does not mean his strength is not vast smile

EvilAngel
Originally posted by Fuddle
He is far beyond many druids. He may not be comparable with Elune, but that does not mean his strength is not vast smile

He was the most powerful eternal being if you exclude the gods and top green dragon kin (i ment in terms of power of nature)

Utrigita
Originally posted by Burning thought
however Old Gods are powerful, but only in their prime, before the current time period, it was said that Sargerus i think was extremely fearful of the 5 old Gods, which is quite large meaning.

So them tearing at the fabric at time and sending three persons back in time to change the history and them swatting DeathWing with the demon soul away like he was a fly because he was a in the way of them comming back to Azeroth. You are underestimating the Olds Gods.

EvilAngel
Originally posted by Utrigita
So them tearing at the fabric at time and sending three persons back in time to change the history and them swatting DeathWing with the demon soul away like he was a fly because he was a in the way of them comming back to Azeroth. You are underestimating the Olds Gods.

?? what are you talking about? deathwing lost demon soul by then....

Utrigita
Originally posted by Burning thought
inaccording to utriga, Elune the Goddess is no greater than Malorn

Based on the fact that during the war of the ancient Elune was powerless to stop the advancing burning Legion while Malorne on the other hand practically was about to singlehandet defeat them, until Archimonde Arrived.

Also it is said that Currently Elune is the most powerful Eternal, but that isn't the same as saying she was always the most powerful and Malornes show against Archimonde and the Legion was spectacular.

Utrigita
Originally posted by EvilAngel
?? what are you talking about? deathwing lost demon soul by then....

Yes I can see it was a bad formulated it was written down quickly and I left out some vital points in the hurry again..

The Old Gods Open a Portal by creating a rift in time that rift was the used by Rhonin, Krasus and Brox. IMO a feat I find highly unlike that the Lich King could duplicate.



from WoWwiki this isn't misunderstood as my own writing was. So again I find it highly unlikely that the Lich King as powerful as he is, is at the levels of a Old God.

EvilAngel
Originally posted by Utrigita
Yes I can see it was a bad formulated it was written down quickly and I left out some vital points in the hurry again..

The Old Gods Open a Portal by creating a rift in time that rift was the used by Rhonin, Krasus and Brox. IMO a feat I find highly unlike that the Lich King could duplicate.



from WoWwiki this isn't misunderstood as my own writing was. So again I find it highly unlikely that the Lich King as powerful as he is, is at the levels of a Old God.

The old gods no longer have physical bodies, they told Deathwing how to make demon soul. It would seem from that they they refused to help him further for melding in their scheme

Burning thought
Originally posted by Utrigita
from WoWwiki this isn't misunderstood as my own writing was. So again I find it highly unlikely that the Lich King as powerful as he is, is at the levels of a Old God.

but as i said, we dont actually know, the official statement is he is one of the most powerful, few things have that said about them, if he is among the most powerful beings that means he could be at the level of the old Gods, and that feat is not neccerily so great, simply creating a time portal, Lich king may not be able to do that power in peticulour but he did more or less create his own race, the undead.

if their the Old Gods, Lich King is more like the New God

also simply because Elune was powerless to stop them, does not make her weaker than Malorn, its more likely her kind of power is simply ineffective against them, does not neccerily make Malorn more powerful than she.

Utrigita
Originally posted by EvilAngel
The old gods no longer have physical bodies, they told Deathwing how to make demon soul. It would seem from that they they refused to help him further for melding in their scheme

The Old Gods work only towards one thing to get free from there prison, and Deathwing became a liability in that quest hence he was removed.

Utrigita
Originally posted by Burning thought
but as i said, we dont actually know, the official statement is he is one of the most powerful, few things have that said about them, if he is among the most powerful beings that means he could be at the level of the old Gods, and that feat is not neccerily so great, simply creating a time portal, Lich king may not be able to do that power in peticulour but he did more or less create his own race, the undead.

if their the Old Gods, Lich King is more like the New God

also simply because Elune was powerless to stop them, does not make her weaker than Malorn, its more likely her kind of power is simply ineffective against them, does not neccerily make Malorn more powerful than she.

Why do you continue to claim that we doesn't know anything about the Lich King??? His stats history and feats are well documented in the Manual of Monsters, The handbooks are written by Blizzard in accordence with the Lore, from what I know. http://www.wowwiki.com/WoWWiki:Policy/Writing/Lore#Official_sources_of_lore

For Instance the Lich King is above Illidan but stats and powers but Death Knight Arthas would lose in a straight up fight if Illidan was using his head, not like the cutscene shows. Hell if we go by the Lore provided by the handbooks (but they will probably be retconned at some point because the Lich King is to low in what they are building him up to at this point) the Azshara is more powerful then him, and there was only three beings that was said to be capable of defeat Azshara. Archimonde and Sargares (and Kil'Jaeden since he is Archimondes superior).

And it isn't simply opening a portal back in time they where RIPPING the fabric of time apart. And with all respect but if you say that Even Sargares feared the Old Gods (I cannot find a reference to that anywhere) then the Lich King should according to you be capable of defeating at the very least a Titan have I understood you correct???

Her power being ineffective against the demons if anything speaks for her not being powerful, she is a God that cannot defeat nore halt the Legion advance while Malorne which is wellversed in the druid lore almost singlehanded defeated the legion.

But will double tjeck whether ore not she inteferes in battles even though she casted a shield over tyranda in the war of the ancient Trilogy

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