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Who wins?

Thor quite handily I would think.

Apocalypse non jobbing is to versatile 6/10

Actually, this is a close fight. Classic Apoc CAN stand up to Thor. Let's see, he could absorb the lightning, mind-rape, open a hole in his body to avoid the hammer throw, give himself immunity to kinetic energy so the hammer does no damage, absorb Thor's life force, speedblitz, teleport, etc. I'm not saying Apoc can clean sweep classic Thor, but he sure as hell can draw even at least.

This one is interesting. Both people have lots of different options to take. I will give this to Thor 6-7/10, but he's going to have a hell of a fight each time.

lets not forget how durable apoc is ,physically how many times has he ever been beaten down.

Classic? Never, except for that incident on the moon. And it took the Xmen Blue team, all the inhumans (including Black Bolt!), X-Factor, Rachel Summers, and a few others to beat him. And the victory was very suspicious. Not to mention he's punked Exodus, Xavier and Jean Grey with his TP/TK.

I like Apocalypse and all, but this is getting out-of-hand. Now people are differentiating between Apocs like there's a difference. "Classic" Apoc is the same Apoc we have now, like it or not. So you can't use your imagination to make his recent showing not count. Let's not be delusional. He's still below Thor, although there's no shame in that.

No, you're wrong. Apocalypse lost alot of his power when he was killed on the moon. He's below Thor currently, but in Classic he could stand up to him.

Originally posted by Rutog98
Who wins?

Thor

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Actually, this is a close fight. Classic Apoc CAN stand up to Thor. Let's see, he could absorb the lightning, mind-rape, open a hole in his body to avoid the hammer throw, give himself immunity to kinetic energy so the hammer does no damage, absorb Thor's life force, speedblitz, teleport, etc. I'm not saying Apoc can clean sweep classic Thor, but he sure as hell can draw even at least. thor wins but when the hell did he ever blitz someone.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
No, you're wrong. Apocalypse lost alot of his power when he was killed on the moon. He's below Thor currently, but in Classic he could stand up to him.

he did? I don't recall him losing power, per say. I wonder if anyone has scans of this?

thor 7/10

A non-jobbing Apocalypse might be able to get a few wins on Thor.

But, Thor still takes the fair majority all day long.


galan_thor

Thanks to stupid writing, apparently Apocalypse's original body was destroyed on the moon, and he's been using substitutes ever since then. In my opinion, this is one of the worst writing decisions ever made. Because of this, Apocalypse's power fluctuates and most of his bodies can't withstand his energy and abilities. However, it does explain why he's weaker now than he was in the past. Hence, the usage of the term 'Classic Apocalypse'. Evil_Ash probably has scans and will back me up on this. And Xmeat? It's well within his powerset to be able to speedblitz. And he has shown considerable agility and speed before.


Edit: Again Galan, that's current Apoc who jobs. And Classic could get 5/10 against Classic Thor.

He has exhibited energy absorbing.....can he take the god blast?

Thor BFRS him with a table.

Thor 10/10

Shut up about the damn table. It was full of PIS and over cosmic level.

I don't think Apoc can take the godblast, but what makes you think Thor can hit him with it?

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Edit: Again Galan, that's current Apoc who jobs. And Classic could get 5/10 against Classic Thor. Yep, that's why I said "a non-jobbing Apoc. might get a few wins."

Fair enough. Speaking of Thor, is Clor basically the new Thor, or is the real Maccoy coming back? If not, we might have start putting Thor in the same pile as current Apoc.

why does every body hate apoc so much.

We don't

Originally posted by Galan007
Yep, that's why I said "a non-jobbing Apoc. might get a few wins."

I'm with trickster. (Classic) Apocalypse at his most powerful was a true team wrecker. I have the Xfactor Issue where he "dies" on the moon. Apocalypse was taking point blank shots from Black Bolt + Xfactor + the rest of the inhumans combined with zero apparent damage.

He was also several stories tall at this point.

Apoc also has good showings vs. Ikaris and the High Evolutionary, and successfully put an angry hulk in a chokehold. The man's strength is no joke.

Speaking of which, don't forget Apocalypse has SCADS of Celestial tech just laying around to be used if need be. I'd also be willing to wager he's a good bit smarter than standard Thor.

I'd give classic apoc 6 or 7 out of ten vs. Thor, current one dies horribly though.

Thor wins, he's a god.
Apoc is just a self-proclaimed god.

what issue of x-factor is it

Originally posted by Space M ummy
I'm with trickster. (Classic) Apocalypse at his most powerful was a true team wrecker. I have the Xfactor Issue where he "dies" on the moon. Apocalypse was taking point blank shots from Black Bolt + Xfactor + the rest of the inhumans combined with zero apparent damage.

He was also several stories tall at this point.

Apoc also has good showings vs. Ikaris and the High Evolutionary, and successfully put an angry hulk in a chokehold. The man's strength is no joke.

Speaking of which, don't forget Apocalypse has SCADS of Celestial tech just laying around to be used if need be. I'd also be willing to wager he's a good bit smarter than standard Thor.

I'd give classic apoc 6 or 7 out of ten vs. Thor, current one dies horribly though.

Can I ask you a favor? Can you direct me to a site that has that issue? Or can you scan that issue into the Apoc respect thread?

The only reason I haven't given Apoc 6-7 wins over Thor is ENTIRELY due to the deus ex machina nature of THAT GOD DAMN HAMMER. Mjolnir is a plot device and a super deus ex machina. That, and I don't know how celestial tech or Apoc himself stand up to magic.

Thanks for the props dude.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Fair enough. Speaking of Thor, is Clor basically the new Thor, or is the real Maccoy coming back? If not, we might have start putting Thor in the same pile as current Apoc.

If Clor is the new Thor then I can finally say...Hercules>>>Thor!

Back to the issue at hand, Classic Apoc vs Thor would be an amazing battle, which I would say Thor just edged 6/10.

Current Apoc, isn't fairing so well though...

Current Apoc has been turned into the ***** for whoever the marvel staff want to wank.

And yes, you can say Herc>Thor. at least until the real Thor shows up and shoves Mjolnir up Clor's ass.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Current Apoc has been turned into the ***** for whoever the marvel staff want to wank.
unfortunatley.



Originally posted by TricksterPriest
And yes, you can say Herc>Thor. at least until the real Thor shows up and shoves Mjolnir up Clor's ass.

Well he would have to aim for his ass because he now has no head! always liked the Thor and Herc dynamic though, Thor is the sensible one in that relationship, where as Herc just wants to drink and punch people.

I'm actually looking forward to Thor coming back.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Current Apoc has been turned into the ***** for whoever the marvel staff want to wank.

Don't worry eventually he'll suck so much that it won't be possible to use him to wank characters . . .

Another misspelled Apoc thread

Well, it's nice to see an Apoc discussion that isn't going down with a table.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Can I ask you a favor? Can you direct me to a site that has that issue? Or can you scan that issue into the Apoc respect thread?

That, and I don't know how celestial tech or Apoc himself stand up to magic.

Well, the Celestial tech Apoc used against Loki were able to hold, in fact, drain Loki of his powers. Although, he did successfully free himself.

Could Thor break free from the Celestial machines?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Don't worry eventually he'll suck so much that it won't be possible to use him to wank characters . . .
Apoc is more usless than a table.
I wouldent want to use Apocalypse to eat on.

Urge to make a "Characters vs thier KMC kryponite" thread rising.

Originally posted by Evil_Ash
Another misspelled Apoc thread

Well, it's nice to see an Apoc discussion that isn't going down with a table.



Well, the Celestial tech Apoc used against Loki were able to hold, in fact, drain Loki of his powers. Although, he did successfully free himself.

Could Thor break free from the Celestial machines? '

So Celestial tech>Asgardian magic? interesting. In that case, definitely favor Apoc in this match. I was wondering when you'd show up. You wouldn't happen to have the issue in question, would you?

Priest: Screw you.

Sym: DO IT! DO IT! DO IT!

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Can I ask you a favor? Can you direct me to a site that has that issue? Or can you scan that issue into the Apoc respect thread?

The only reason I haven't given Apoc 6-7 wins over Thor is ENTIRELY due to the deus ex machina nature of THAT GOD DAMN HAMMER. Mjolnir is a plot device and a super deus ex machina. That, and I don't know how celestial tech or Apoc himself stand up to magic.

Thanks for the props dude.

sorry, I had to actually go looking for the issue- took a while because it's pretty well worn and the cover's no longer on it.

I don't have a scanner but it's X-factor #68, 1991. looking through it again it seems like Scott is using his power + jean's + nathan's to take apocalypse out...so the loss might not be as bad I as remembered. Baby nathan was being made out to be stronger than Jean was at that point...

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Urge to make a "Characters vs thier KMC kryponite" thread rising.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
You wouldn't happen to have the issue in question, would you?

Oh, which issue?

Apocalypse would likely win 6/10.

Originally posted by Evil_Ash
Oh, which issue?

I assume he means the issue where celestial tech was used to trap/drain Loki.

If that's true, apocalypse definitely has a decisive win here.

That issue, and the moon battle one with Inhumans, X-Factor, etc.


Baby Nathan was stronger than Jean? I still don't see Jean, Cyke and Nathan as being stronger than Apoc.

Edit: Found some scans of Apoc punking Loki in the respect thread. Props to Evil_Ash.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/powers15.png
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/powers16.png

Originally posted by lordboo
why does every body hate apoc so much.

Because x-books stopped being good when Jean Grey returned

Well until Astonishing X-men, but the point still remains

Agreed. ***** should have stayed dead. Haven't read much Astonishing, so I'll just take your word for it.

Thor wins.

Um, we've debated this pretty well in the last 2 pages. And most of us think Thor is outmatched by Classic Apoc.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Um, we've debated this pretty well in the last 2 pages. And most of us think Thor is outmatched by Classic Apoc. Evidently not me... The majority is nice, but I really don't care.

Is it... because Apoc has managed to knock down Loki?
Because I know Thor hasn't managed to knock down Loki, or make Loki show any signs of pain...
Or suck out his soul, or make him go blind (then pawn him), or just plain beat him and his son, with no hammer, and the other two have hammers, or... etc.

Thor can match Apoc's abilities and sum.
the Mjinor is more versitile than Apoc.

Thor beats the shit out of Apoc.

Originally posted by batdude123
Thor beats the shit out of Apoc. True dat, true dat.

APOC 9/10 w/o mjolnir
APOC 7/10 w/ mjolnir

Mjolnir is a deus ex machina at times, but I have to partly co-sign with Swerve. (NEVER thought I'd say that.......) Without Mjolnir, Thor's screwed against Apocalypse. With it, I think Apoc can get at least 6/10.


Where's Evil_Ash when you need him?

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Mjolnir is a deus ex machina at times, but I have to partly co-sign with Swerve. (NEVER thought I'd say that.......) Without Mjolnir, Thor's screwed against Apocalypse. With it, I think Apoc can get at least 6/10.


Where's Evil_Ash when you need him?

Totally full-potential-ignore-low-showings-only-take-the-best-of-the-best Apocalypse could get 6/10.

Originally posted by Soljer
Totally full-potential-ignore-low-showings-only-take-the-best-of-the-best Apocalypse could get 6/10.

Not really. Thor still beats him.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Mjolnir is a deus ex machina at times, but I have to partly co-sign with Swerve. (NEVER thought I'd say that.......) Without Mjolnir, Thor's screwed against Apocalypse. With it, I think Apoc can get at least 6/10.


Where's Evil_Ash when you need him?

Why would Thor not have Mjolnir?

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Mjolnir is a deus ex machina at times, but I have to partly co-sign with Swerve. (NEVER thought I'd say that.......) Without Mjolnir, Thor's screwed against Apocalypse. With it, I think Apoc can get at least 6/10.


Where's Evil_Ash when you need him? Why is this?

Like, I mean... Thor can kill Durok in one shot without his hammer.

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/5229/page022ea2.th.jpg
http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/1626/page023wp1.th.jpg


Now, I'm not arguing about Thor without his hammer (I don't remember this even being in the thread), but even then, Apoc would be hard pressed to beat him...
I mean, when you one shot kill someone who has given Surfer troubles, and has even given Thor troubles with his hammer...

Keep in mind, this is Thor realizing he has depended on his hammer too much.
He would have that skill without his hammer, and hell, even with his hammer.

Plus...
OMG... Exitar!
http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/7935/thor38809hc7.th.jpg
http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/1889/thor38810yh9.th.jpg

OMG Fourth Host!
http://img453.imageshack.us/img453/5795/thor30030le2.th.jpg
http://img453.imageshack.us/img453/3603/thor30031pw4.th.jpg

OMG Arishem!
http://img453.imageshack.us/img453/6697/thor30032sw7.th.jpg
http://img453.imageshack.us/img453/7114/thor30033nn7.th.jpg
http://img453.imageshack.us/img453/3142/thor30034lv6.th.jpg

He just took a bunch of hits from Celestials... also, where does Apoc get his small amout of tech from?

apoc owned hulk who stalemates thor( thor's best showing of course)

Originally posted by swerve1988
apoc owned hulk who stalemates thor( thor's best showing of course)

It's ignorance like this that makes parents beat their children.

Originally posted by swerve1988
apoc owned hulk who stalemates thor( thor's best showing of course) Apoc choked Hulk, who was not even 616 Hulk (wouldn't make sense).

So... you're saying that Thor fighting Celestials (where Apoc gets his tiny amount of tech from), is not better than him stalemating Hulk?
Also, when he stalemates Hulk, he uses his strength, not his powers.

Apoc also stalemated Loki, who Thor has owned on MANY occasions.

OMG aBC logc teh fiunniest!!!!11

Ok, the celestial feats are somewhat PISy. I'll give props for the Durok feat.

Swerve, quit it. I'm gonna get really pissed at you if you don't stop this shit......

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Ok, the celestial feats are somewhat PISy. I'll give props for the Durok feat.

Swerve, quit it. I'm gonna get really pissed at you if you don't stop this shit......

i thought we agreed APOC has a chance of winning this fight

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Ok, the celestial feats are somewhat PISy. I'll give props for the Durok feat.

Swerve, quit it. I'm gonna get really pissed at you if you don't stop this shit...... Why?
It isn't like it goes against his entire career, and we are only using three or so feats, and ignoring the rest of his comic history, by calling him "classic" Thor, even though one of his "classic" feats happened just a little while ago... whoops!

Oh ya... no hammer, and both Loki and Fenris have replicants of Thor's.
http://img453.imageshack.us/img453/6660/page014od9.th.jpg

Not sure if it's been mentioned but Thor has beaten Apoc before...

WE agreed on nothing. I mean it. Stop posting for awhile and STFU. Or I'll do something completely crazy, like argue AGAINST Apocalypse. I'd ban you myself if I had the power. censored chair

Edit: Really? Can I get scans? Also, classic or current Apoc?

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
Not sure if it's been mentioned but Thor has beaten Apoc before... Really?

You learn something new once in a while...

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Actually, this is a close fight. Classic Apoc CAN stand up to Thor. Let's see, he could absorb the lightning, mind-rape, open a hole in his body to avoid the hammer throw, give himself immunity to kinetic energy so the hammer does no damage, absorb Thor's life force, speedblitz, teleport, etc. I'm not saying Apoc can clean sweep classic Thor, but he sure as hell can draw even at least.

He may absorb Thor's lightning blast, but to what extent? When battling Ego it was said that Thor can increase the effectiveness of his lighting 1000 fold, making it far hotter than the heat produced at the core of the sun. Also, Thor could summon Omni-directional lighting and winds on a planetary scale, keeping Apoc dead or severely damaged.

Mind-Rape

As most know, Thor is extremely resistant to TP. He's fought of telepathic assaults that even put Moondragon down.

Why would Thor foolishly throw his hammer at Apoc in a bloodlusted battle, where each character is fighting to the best of their abilities? He could just as easily use an anti gravity attack, leaving Apoc helpless. No amount of shape shifting is gonna help that.

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e101/Soujaboy/Thor%20Feats/antiforcesuperskrull1ex2.jpg

Nice trick. Although it would be useless to use in a situation such as this, where your opponent has about a million others options other than making this battle a physical confrontation.

When has Apoc absorbed the life force of an opponent on Thor's lv? In fact, when has Apoc absorbed someones life force period?

Speedblitz.

Whats teleporting going to help?

Thor 7/10

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
WE agreed on nothing. I mean it. Stop posting for awhile and STFU. Or I'll do something completely crazy, like argue AGAINST Apocalypse. I'd ban you myself if I had the power. censored chair

Edit: Really? Can I get scans? Also, classic or current Apoc?

It's a one panel flash back in an Uncanny issue. One of Apoc's fallowers is talking about his defeats and we are treated to a one panel flash back of Apoc floating around helplessly in space with Thor flying around him.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Ok, the celestial feats are somewhat PISy. I'll give props for the Durok feat.

Swerve, quit it. I'm gonna get really pissed at you if you don't stop this shit......

How so? He knocked Arshiem off his feat, only to be owned shortly afterwards.

He crushed Exitar's dome(I think that was him) which didn't contradict his history as a character with insane physical strength.

Originally posted by Soujaboy
He may absorb Thor's lightning blast, but to what extent? When battling Ego it was said that Thor can increase the effectiveness of his lighting 1000 fold, making it far hotter than the heat produced at the core of the sun. Also, Thor could summon Omni-directional lighting and winds on a planetary scale, keeping Apoc dead or severely damaged.
Also...
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/2754/atlantisattackspart13thkr8.th.jpg

He makes Atum transform.
http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/4768/atlantisattackspart13thme9.th.jpg

The sun's heat didn't affect Atum, but Thor's lighting (mixed with some of the sun's powers) did.

Oh ya, Atum would bend Apoc over (along with most, if not all, of Marvel Earth), and... all the matter manipulation in the world isn't going to help the pain of his colon.

That completely contradicts things like Apoc stalemating the HE and beating Ikaris and maneuvering easily in space. I'd say it's more likely current Apoc than Classic. Apocalypse is certainly capable of absorbing lifeforce. It's within his powerset.

Edit: Thor knew he couldn't possibly beat Atum in that fight. He was trying to piss him off. Of course Atum would rape Apoc as well. Demogorge beats down Elder Gods like Thanos beats down Surfer.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
WE agreed on nothing. I mean it. Stop posting for awhile and STFU. Or I'll do something completely crazy, like argue AGAINST Apocalypse. I'd ban you myself if I had the power. censored chair

Edit: Really? Can I get scans? Also, classic or current Apoc?

geez....sound a lil "suspect" !!!!!

Originally posted by Soujaboy
He crushed Exitar's dome(I think that was him) which didn't contradict his history as a character with insane physical strength. It was. Arishem was also there, and Exitar towered over him.
I guess I should also say that he had the belt of Strength...
http://img463.imageshack.us/img463/7207/thor38806kp6.th.jpg

Thor 388.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
I'm with trickster. (Classic) Apocalypse at his most powerful was a true team wrecker. I have the Xfactor Issue where he "dies" on the moon. Apocalypse was taking point blank shots from Black Bolt + Xfactor + the rest of the inhumans combined with zero apparent damage.

He was also several stories tall at this point.

Apoc also has good showings vs. Ikaris and the High Evolutionary, and successfully put an angry hulk in a choke hold. The man's strength is no joke.

Speaking of which, don't forget Apocalypse has SCADS of Celestial tech just laying around to be used if need be. I'd also be willing to wager he's a good bit smarter than standard Thor.

I'd give classic apoc 6 or 7 out of ten vs. Thor, current one dies horribly though.

You shouldn't be, doing so places you on the losing end of this debate.

Being a team wrecker somehow means your some uber powerful character? Guess that makes Hulk, and Juggernaut two of the most powerful characters in the MU.

Thor can shrink people, increasing his size wont help in this battle.

Which means nothing. Thor's has great showings against Galactus, Stranger, Zeus, Ego, etc. However the above fights don't give him automatic wins against other characters in his league.

Thor's done better than a choke hold. He's actually physically killed Hulk while at the same time battling other hero's.

Wouldn't grabbing celestial tech be considered as outside help?

I call it the other way around.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
That completely contradicts things like Apoc stalemating the HE and beating Ikaris and maneuvering easily in space. I'd say it's more likely current Apoc than Classic. Apocalypse is certainly capable of absorbing lifeforce. It's within his powerset.

Edit: Thor knew he couldn't possibly beat Atum in that fight. He was trying to piss him off. Of course Atum would rape Apoc as well. Demogorge beats down Elder Gods like Thanos beats down Surfer. Maybe Apoc was KOed, or couldn't fight anymore...

I know, but he still affected him. I never said he beat him.

and I give Thor his props. Part of that credit must go to Mjolnir though.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
and I give Thor his props. Part of that credit must go to Mjolnir though. And what part of Apoc's credit goes to Celestial Tech?

Also, as I have shown, he has one-shotted a character that has given him troubles, with his own godly energies.
No hammer.

I meant his blasting Atum, not his own skills and powers. He wouldn't have been able to hurt Atum without the hammer. Your point is well taken though.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
I meant his blasting Atum, not his own skills and powers. He wouldn't have been able to hurt Atum without the hammer. Your point is well taken though. OK... but he still has his hammer for this fight... so the credit should go to his hammer, BUT it is still irrelevent to say so.

So... Thor wins?

thor < whipAPOC

Originally posted by swerve1988
thor < whipAPOC Based on?

What exactly is Apocolypse going to do to hurt Thor?

I mean the guy gets owned by the xmen,,,

Is it just me or does it seem like the xmen shouldn't be an a-list team

I mean they don't don't have the powerhouses (avengers) and they don't have the super-science (Fantastic Four) and they don't even have any magic users (Alpha Flight)

Seriously, the only reason they are still around is because they are polular, the MU could definitly go on without the xmen

Originally posted by Grimm22
What exactly is Apocolypse going to do to hurt Thor?

I mean the guy gets owned by the xmen,,,

Is it just me or does it seem like the xmen shouldn't be an a-list team

I mean they don't don't have the powerhouses (avengers) and they don't have the super-science (Fantastic Four) and they don't even have any magic users (Alpha Flight)

Seriously, the only reason they are still around is because they are polular, the MU could definitly go on without the xmen

They are the most relatable to the typical comic reader.

Screw that. Most of the team sucks anyway. And they've lost some of their best recently. Like Gambit, who is currently a reverse albino. And the Xmen own current Apoc. They couldn't even touch Classic.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Screw that. Most of the team sucks anyway. And they've lost some of their best recently. Like Gambit, who is currently a reverse albino. And the Xmen own current Apoc. They couldn't even touch Classic. So... Thor wins?

Originally posted by Soljer
They are the most relatable to the typical comic reader.

Ahem, Spider-Man

No, I mean their importance in the MU

All they really do is fight people who hate mutants and mutants who hate humans or whatever

They never really even fight anyone else, and when's the last time you heard of anyone calling the xmen for help, when you have so many better choices, depending on the situation you are in

And don't even get me started on how the hell they beat Magneto...EVER!

I mean seriously, one of the most powerful earth based villans in comics gets beaten by a guy who can shoot lasers, a hairy midget with claws, some chick who can control the weather and a handicaped guy with telepathic powers?!?

I mean the only real threat to him is Jean and she's dead half the time

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Screw that. Most of the team sucks anyway. And they've lost some of their best recently. Like Gambit, who is currently a reverse albino. And the Xmen own current Apoc. They couldn't even touch Classic.

Gambit?!?

Oh noes, what will the xmen do without a cajun who can throw glowing playing cards

Ironic how the x-books have gotten a LOT better since he left, eh?

Nah. they still suck. And Gambit was cool. Even if his power was dramatically underwritten. Not to mention his de-powerment after the New Sun incident.

APOC beats thor

thor beats supes

supes beats DS

DS= thanos

Originally posted by swerve1988
APOC beats thor

thor beats supes

supes beats DS

DS= thanos

I don't think you got any of that right.

Originally posted by swerve1988
APOC beats thor

thor beats supes

supes beats DS

DS= thanos So, you're saying:

Apoc>Thor>Supes>DS=Thanos?

Interesting...

Quite an idiotic statement, but interesting...

We're currently still debating the Apoc vs. Thor one.

As for the rest? Hell no.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
We're currently still debating the Apoc vs. Thor one.

As for the rest? Hell no. So... Apoc loses?

I can't really see any other way...

thor sends his ass to hela nuff said.

apoc kills thor
takes hammer as souvenier

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
and I give Thor his props. Part of that credit must go to Mjolnir though.

For what? Give Cap Mjolnir, and he won't be absorbing any galaxy destroying balst anytime soon.

Also, Thor's godly energies are greater and beyond all of Asgard. This is one reason he became so powerful during Ragnarok.

Originally posted by swerve1988
apoc kills thor
takes hammer as souvenier Neither is right, but...

How would he take his hammer?
He WOULD NEVER be able to lift it... ever!

Originally posted by Soujaboy
For what? Give Cap Mjolnir, and he won't be absorbing any galaxy destroying balst anytime soon.

Also, Thor's godly energies are greater and beyond all of Asgard. This is one reason he became so powerful during Ragnarok. Actually... they did that once, and Cap one-shotted Apocalypse...

Originally posted by bigbran
Neither is right, but...

How would he take his hammer?
He WOULD NEVER be able to lift it... ever!

Actually... they did that once, and Cap one-shotted Apocalypse...

APOC is way stronger than thor

Originally posted by Soujaboy
You shouldn't be, doing so places you on the losing end of this debate.

Being a team wrecker somehow means your some uber powerful character? Guess that makes Hulk, and Juggernaut two of the most powerful characters in the MU.

Thor can shrink people, increasing his size wont help in this battle.

Which means nothing. Thor's has great showings against Galactus, Stranger, Zeus, Ego, etc. However the above fights don't give him automatic wins against other characters in his league.

Thor's done better than a choke hold. He's actually physically killed Hulk while at the same time battling other hero's.

Wouldn't grabbing celestial tech be considered as outside help?

I call it the other way around.

actually, yes. the definition of team wrecker IS "hey! I'm a uber powerful character!"

Hulk is certainly one of the more powerful individuals in 616 (not counting cosmics and the like) and in his heyday, yes it did take entire teams and armies to slow him down. Juggernaut is cyttorak incarnate when he feels like concentrating. Again, Classic was a character that manhandled thor and the Xmen like they were a minor irritation.

Classic Apocalypse had total control of his entire molecular structure. that's not just size change, thats "invent any power I want, when I want, to an undetermined extent." He also has enough knowledge to grant OTHER mutants with whatever powers he sees fit. Just look at his horsemen.

Regular Thor has HUGE problems with hulk and always has. Sans Mjolnir it's usually a stalemate. How many non cosmic characters can you think of that are even capable of putting and KEEPING an angry hulk in a choke hold? It's damn few. MAYBE Juggernaut, Thor at his peak, Immortal Hercules, and the list stops there.

I thought it was King Thor/RKT that Killed the Hulk. We're not debating that version of Thor- he's clearly above apocalypse.

No, grabbing celestial tech would not be "outside help." Apocalypse makes extensive use of it, and it's been implied it was involved into changing his original body into what it is/was now. Xfactor's sentient "ship" was also celestial tech, and originally his. He uses it to create his horsemen, constantly. Apocalypse has some of the most advanced tech on the PLANET, Beyond what Reed, Doom, and Iron man currently have access to.

I'm not an apocalypse fanboy or anything, but I've been reading comics since the mid 80s- long enough to notice current apoc (and sinister also, but that's another story) has been HUGELY depowered since his debut. Properly written he gives Thor a Good workout- Thor has a lot of very good showings but he's been given problems by sheer bricks like Juggernaut, Hercules, Hulk, the Wrecker, and Absorbing Man on a regular basis. Hell, Beta Ray Bill defeated him twice BEFORE he got Stormbreaker.

Apocalypse is at least as strong if he chooses to be, and a HELL of a lot smarter than all five combined. I don't think he'll sweep Thor by any means, but I think giving the man who took over the planet (in AOA) a minor majority is reasonable.

Originally posted by swerve1988
APOC is way stronger than thor Anyway...

It doesn't matter how strong you are, if you aren't worthy, you aren't picking up the hammer.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
Regular Thor has HUGE problems with hulk and always has. Sans Mjolnir it's usually a stalemate. How many non cosmic characters can you think of that are even capable of putting and KEEPING an angry hulk in a choke hold? It's damn few. MAYBE Juggernaut, Thor at his peak, Immortal Hercules, and the list stops there. Umm... that wasn't 616 Hulk.

Thank god someone besides Swerve is on my side. and having swerve is kind of a hinderance. He thinks Apoc is over Galactus.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Thank god someone besides Swerve is on my side. and having swerve is kind of a hinderance. He thinks Apoc is over Galactus.

APOC could beat galactus....if Big G was a month from starving to literal death

Originally posted by swerve1988
APOC could beat galactus....if Big G was a month from starving to literal death Galactus at his death, would still one-shot Apoc.

Originally posted by bigbran
Galactus at his death, would still one-shot Apoc.


maybe odin or thanos but certainly not APOC

Originally posted by swerve1988
maybe odin or thanos but certainly not APOC I can't even answer this...

Originally posted by bigbran
I can't even answer this...

I'm pretty sure he's just having fun with you now. No one's THAT clueless.

Care to bet on that?

You know what I find funny?

Just the simple fact that anytime Apoc wins, he is Classic... anytime he loses, he isn't Classic.

How long ago was his fight with the Prime Eternal?
Yet, that was "Classic" Apoc.

So, basically, everytime he wins, that it good writing, and everytime he loses, he wasn't "Classic".

Quite funny actually. I guess we only use winning examples to make a characters powers? If I brought up an example of Cable stalemating him in h2h, that wouldn't be allowed. If I brought up an example of him stalemating HE, it would be allowed.

I also find it funny, that people ALWAYS manage to add that HE had stalemated Galactus (although he did get one-shotted). If HE did stalemate Galactus, then evidently one of the two were pis, and yet, no one can see this?

Plus, I also find it funny on how people also use various healing/matter manipulation feats throughout the years, and yet, those feats cross the lines of Classic.

Take Apoc choking Hulk for example. That happened, what, a few years ago? Amost certain, that that isn't "Classic". Yet, if I were to bring a feat of him losing in the same year, someone would make a remark about him not being "Classic".

So, based on how Apocalypse threads go, all his good feats are Classic, and all his bad feats are him being depowered, or not Classic.

Classic to me, is a time where before he starts losing to everyone. Classic to everyone else, is a collection of good feats.

So basically... there is no "Classic", only really good feat Apocalypse.

Pathetic really... I mean, if you like the character, don't make up some shit Classic character, and not follow through. To me, it sounds like we are just supposed to make up some version of a character, in a certain timeline, and then just use all his good feats. If you are going to do that, then why can't I use someone beating Apocalypse?

Isn't that how characters get ruined? He had way more respect before the respect thread even.
Intriging really...

Also, good feats or not, Thor wins... I mean... "Classic Thor" wins.

When Apocalypse stops jobbing, then this arguement will cease. Until then, I can use an example that illustrates his true power. Marvel de-powered him to such an extent that he loses to people that he has either defeated, or easily demonstrated powers to overcome them. Current Apocalypse doesn't use 1/10th of his potential. When he defeats people like Ikaris, that is the true potential and power that is correctly attributed to him. Such feats, are few and far between nowadays. that is the difference. Things like the Twelve Saga, or being defeated by the Xmen blue team, or being depowered to where he has to dodge a table from Namor , or his hideous reputation on this forum.

No, I will not cease my defense of Classic Apocalypse. If this had been done to Thor, you would be doing the same. If Thor suddenly forgot or was unable to use all the powers and abilities he had, or was being defeated by people he demolished less than a decade ago, you too would claim that 'Classic' Thor would have no problems winning.

I'm done. I'm not going to bother posting in this topic for awhile. My point has been made, and it is plain to anyone willing to look past the hype and prejudice. Apocalypse has been depowered and weakened. Thus, the need for a differentiation between Classic and Current.

Take this scan for example.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/powers4.png

Seems impossible, doesn't it, given the hype?
Apocalypse takes X-Factor, the Inhumans, (Black Bolt!) Askani/Rachael Summers, Xmen Blue team, and Charlotte Jones w/big tech gun- hitting him with everything they had to no effect, he waded through it.

Given that Black Bolt was able to kill an alternate Apocalypse in HoM, when a decade earlier, he couldn't even scratch Apoc, it's plain to see something is amiss. the point is made, whether you chose to accept it or not, is your own problem. Read the respect thread, then tell me whether or not Apocalypse is truly using all his power and potential nowadays. The answer is of course, obvious.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
When Apocalypse stops jobbing, then this arguement will cease. Until then, I can use an example that illustrates his true power. Marvel de-powered him to such an extent that he loses to people that he has either defeated, or easily demonstrated powers to overcome them. Current Apocalypse doesn't use 1/10th of his potential. When he defeats people like Ikaris, that is the true potential and power that is correctly attributed to him. Such feats, are few and far between nowadays. that is the difference. Things like the Twelve Saga, or being defeated by the Xmen blue team, or being depowered to where he has to dodge a table from Namor , or his hideous reputation on this forum.

No, I will not cease my defense of Classic Apocalypse. If this had been done to Thor, you would be doing the same. If Thor suddenly forgot or was unable to use all the powers and abilities he had, or was being defeated by people he demolished less than a decade ago, you too would claim that 'Classic' Thor would have no problems winning.

I'm done. I'm not going to bother posting in this topic for awhile. My point has been made, and it is plain to anyone willing to look past the hype and prejudice. Apocalypse has been depowered and weakened. Thus, the need for a differentiation between Classic and Current.

Take this scan for example.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/powers4.png

Seems impossible, doesn't it, given the hype?
Apocalypse takes X-Factor, the Inhumans, (Black Bolt!) Askani/Rachael Summers, Xmen Blue team, and Charlotte Jones w/big tech gun- hitting him with everything they had to no effect, he waded through it.

Given that Black Bolt was able to kill an alternate Apocalypse in HoM, when a decade earlier, he couldn't even scratch Apoc, it's plain to see something is amiss. the point is made, whether you chose to accept it or not, is your own problem. Read the respect thread, then tell me whether or not Apocalypse is truly using all his power and potential nowadays. The answer is of course, obvious.
Undoubtedly correct!

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
When Apocalypse stops jobbing, then this arguement will cease. Until then, I can use an example that illustrates his true power. Marvel de-powered him to such an extent that he loses to people that he has either defeated, or easily demonstrated powers to overcome them. Current Apocalypse doesn't use 1/10th of his potential. When he defeats people like Ikaris, that is the true potential and power that is correctly attributed to him.

Also, has Apocalypse jobbed, more that he has won?

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
No, I will not cease my defense of Classic Apocalypse. If this had been done to Thor, you would be doing the same. If Thor suddenly forgot or was unable to use all the powers and abilities he had, or was being defeated by people he demolished less than a decade ago, you too would claim that 'Classic' Thor would have no problems winning. Thor isn't even favorite character, but even then, he has about 700 (his own) comics from him to call "Classic", and if he did start to do what you said, then there would be an explanation.

Apoc's explanation, is that, people don't want to accept that he is what he is.

The Ikaris feat, is passed off as Classic Apoc, the Loki feat, is passed off as Classic, and yet, they aren't, they are just higher showings.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
I'm done. I'm not going to bother posting in this topic for awhile. My point has been made, and it is plain to anyone willing to look past the hype and prejudice. Apocalypse has been depowered and weakened. Thus, the need for a differentiation between Classic and Current. And, when was this stated?

My point was, that if you are going to use some current feats, then don't block out feats from the same timeline.
He is Apocalypse, there was no Apocalypse crisis that I am aware of.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Take this scan for example.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/powers4.png

Seems impossible, doesn't it, given the hype?
Apocalypse takes X-Factor, the Inhumans, (Black Bolt!) Askani/Rachael Summers, Xmen Blue team, and Charlotte Jones w/big tech gun- hitting him with everything they had to no effect, he waded through it. You ever think of pis?

Anytime anyone from Marvel Earth takes Blackbolt's scream, then there is obviously something... wrong.

You think any Apocalypse is more durible than Surfer? Surfer was put on his knees from a whisper, and yet, you think "Classic" Apocalypse can take a full on scream with no damage?

It seems that any high end feat from Apoc is also acceptable no matter how stupid it sounds.

Also, what issue was that scan from?

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Given that Black Bolt was able to kill an alternate Apocalypse in HoM, when a decade earlier, he couldn't even scratch Apoc, it's plain to see something is amiss. the point is made, whether you chose to accept it or not, is your own problem. Read the respect thread, then tell me whether or not Apocalypse is truly using all his power and potential nowadays. The answer is of course, obvious. Umm... when in one showing he has no effect on him, and in the next, he disintegrates him with a whisper... then obviously one or the other is wrong.
Two completely different showings, an neither really shows anything.
If you take that showing, then what is to stop me from using the HOM showing?
I can't use Black Bolt beating Apoc, but you can use him doing nothing?

Thus why, I think neither should be acceptable. It completely contridicts each other.

Originally posted by bigbran
You think any Apocalypse is more durible than Surfer? Surfer was put on his knees from a whisper, and yet, you think "Classic" Apocalypse can take a full on scream with no damage?

Apocalypse was already capable of withstanding a big force blast from the High Evolutionary, while at the same time being blasted out of his space station.

Originally posted by bigbran
And, when was this stated?

My point was, that if you are going to use some current feats, then don't block out feats from the same timeline.
He is Apocalypse, there was no Apocalypse crisis that I am aware of.
Originally posted by bigbran
Also, what issue was that scan from?

X-Factor #68.

That's when Apocalypse's original body was destroyed, and he's been using substitutes ever since then. Because of this, Apocalypse's power fluctuates and most of his bodies can't withstand his energy and abilities. Whichs explains why he's weaker now than he was in the past. Hence, the usage of the term 'Classic Apocalypse'.

Originally posted by bigbran
Umm... when in one showing he has no effect on him, and in the next, he disintegrates him with a whisper... then obviously one or the other is wrong.
Two completely different showings, an neither really shows anything.
If you take that showing, then what is to stop me from using the HOM showing?
I can't use Black Bolt beating Apoc, but you can use him doing nothing?

Thus why, I think neither should be acceptable. It completely contridicts each other.

HoM is an altered reality, created by Wanda.

It doesn't count.

For anyone that says APOC is a team wrecker.....Thor is not?


Thor can wreck most teams...

APOC can beat thor fair and square, whether you all like it or not

Thor is a GOD, APOC is a DEMI-GOD.

Still say Thor wins but it will be a hard fight.

Originally posted by endrict
Thor is a GOD, APOC is a DEMI-GOD.

Still say Thor wins but it will be a hard fight.

APOC has beaten gods already

Apoc is actually an Immortal Mutant who has been worshiped like a God in the past, not a Demi God.

Originally posted by Hercules
Apoc is actually an Immortal Mutant who has been worshiped like a God in the past, not a Demi God.

true but if i said it i would have been verbally abused

No, you'd be verbally abused, as you put it, because you're a fanboy who doesn't argue like a true fan.


*high fives Ash* thanks man. As always, you come through in a clutch for Apocalypse.

Gotta go with Thor.

Damm, i missed all the action, Thor ftw.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
No, you'd be verbally abused, as you put it, because you're a fanboy who doesn't argue like a true fan.


*high fives Ash* thanks man. As always, you come through in a clutch for Apocalypse.

i'm not a fanboy

Originally posted by swerve1988
i'm not a fanboy

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/humour_laughing_dog.jpg

Man, I'm late to the party again and it looks like I've been beaten to the punch on most of these replies but I can't resist.

Originally posted by bigbran
Thor isn't even favorite character, but even then, he has about 700 (his own) comics from him to call "Classic", and if he did start to do what you said, then there would be an explanation.

Thor DOES have different incarnations used on the board all the time.
There's a difference between "standard (or classic) Thor", "masterson Thor", and "King Thor." Same character, three wildly different power levels.



Classic Apocalypse is USUALLY easy to spot due to the Giant "A" on his belt. I think they stopped using that after he was killed in X-factor.
The difference between "classic" apoc and "current" is that ALL of his showings prior to his death(s) were high level showings. It's canon- not speculation- that apocalypse is now using host bodies since the destruction of his original. that's a pretty solid explanation for the decrease in power if you ask me.



Our point is that all of apocalypse's higher showings date from before his death. All of his low showings date from AFTER this happened.



It isn't PIS when it's consistent. Apocalypse was consistently written as a massively powerful individual that it took entire teams to stop. The scan from X-factor 68 isn't an exception- if you read early Xfactor he was ALWAYS that way.



depends on when it happened. Apocalypse has been powered down since his debut, Black Bolt has been powered up. Surfer has received numerous power ups. It's comics. it happens.



I've already been beaten to it, but yeah, HOM was an alternate continuity in addition to occurring about 15 years after Xfactor 68. 616 Apocalypse was dead when this happened, and it isn't valid. Xfactor #68 is definitely in continuity though, and stands as one of the landmark X-books as this was the issue where Nate Summers was sent into the future to become Cable (and ironically, fight apocalypse there also!)

Just like Classic vs. Current Juggernaut, there are clear and explainable reasons WHY Apocalypse isn't as strong as he used to be. I don't like them, and think the plot line is incredibly bad writing, but it's there and it's canon. Classic and Current are clearly at two different power levels.

thank you. Yes, Apocalypse has been jobbed. Just because there is a reason for it, doesn't mean we shouldn't acknowledge it. Much like the various incarnations of Juggernaut, Drax, Hulk, Xavier as of Decimation, there are clear differences in power and ability. If anything, this illustrates how powerful he is. IF NONE OF HIS HOST BODIES CAN CONTAIN OR APPROACH HIS CLASSIC LEVELS, THEN HE MUST BE ALOT STRONGER THAN HIS HYPE MAKES HIM SEEM.

Which means, his Classic incarnation is not getting the fair credit it deserves. Juggs was depowered for a considerable period of time (and may have been repowered recently), but do you hear people say Classic Juggs would lose to Hulk, Thing, or other bricks? Of course not. The same principle applies to Apocalypse. Things like the Ikaris fight are high showings, but they are very rare for him after X-Factor #68. The point is, Classic Apocalypse would be more than capable of accomplishing those feats. The fact that Current did it makes a freak occurence, given his record of jobbing. With Classic, it would be business as usual.

Thor's showing > "classic" Apocalypse showing nuff said.

Now that, is your opinion.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Now that, is your opinion.
its true,
Thor tangled with skyfathers, beings like Mesphisto, Thanos, galactus, and celestials....the list goes on.
Thor has done it all, more than Apocalypse would ever be able to over come.

Originally posted by Priest
its true,
Thor tangled with skyfathers, beings like Mesphisto, Thanos, galactus, and celestials....the list goes on.
Thor has done it all, more than Apocalypse would ever be able to over come.

come on now, you're not being honest.

Thanos owned him, and that was WITH the power gem.
Galactus' power levels are all over the place. At his strongest, Thor has no shot.
The Celestials were barely phased by Thor.
Mephisto's power weakens rapidly the longer he's away from his home dimension.

Thor's standard showings are a little lower end. a nonpowered Beta Ray Bill beat him twice. Hercules Stalemates him all the time. Hulk has stalemated him a couple times. Champion, with no gem, casually dismissed him in his first appearance. Kurse is stated to be roughly twice his strength. Black bolt gave him a workout when he was holding back. (i.e. not using the scream at all.) Classic Jugs manhandled him. He usually has to trick the absorbing man....etc

Originally posted by Space M ummy
come on now, you're not being honest.

Thanos owned him, and that was WITH the power gem.
Galactus' power levels are all over the place. At his strongest, Thor has no shot.
The Celestials were barely phased by Thor.
Mephisto's power weakens rapidly the longer he's away from his home dimension.

Thor's standard showings are a little lower end. a nonpowered Beta Ray Bill beat him twice. Hercules Stalemates him all the time. Hulk has stalemated him a couple times. Champion, with no gem, casually dismissed him in his first appearance. Kurse is stated to be roughly twice his strength. Black bolt gave him a workout when he was holding back. (i.e. not using the scream at all.) Classic Jugs manhandled him. He usually has to trick the absorbing man....etc

clapping You earned this. notworthy So, in your opinion, is Thor Herald level? Because some people on here seem to be claiming he is. I'd say it's the magic element that lets him hang with guys like Surfer, who I don't think he could beat in a straight fight......

Originally posted by Evil_Ash
Apocalypse was already capable of withstanding a big force blast from the High Evolutionary, while at the same time being blasted out of his space station. So... you think he is more durible than Surfer?
Intriging to say the least.




Originally posted by Evil_Ash
X-Factor #68.

That's when Apocalypse's original body was destroyed, and he's been using substitutes ever since then. Because of this, Apocalypse's power fluctuates and most of his bodies can't withstand his energy and abilities. Whichs explains why he's weaker now than he was in the past. Hence, the usage of the term 'Classic Apocalypse'. OK... I was thinking it was from the Twelve...
Would have been hypocritical to use that as evidence.

Also, what I'm saying is if you look back, you will see people referring to feats from a little while ago, as Classic.
Not exactly classic.



Originally posted by Evil_Ash
HoM is an altered reality, created by Wanda.

It doesn't count. I know, but I'm just saying... we only have two times that this happened. Is either one accurate? No.

Plus, I could take the pis route instead...
I mean, it may be canon, but to me, it is pis.



Originally posted by Space M ummy
Thor DOES have different incarnations used on the board all the time.
There's a difference between "standard (or classic) Thor", "masterson Thor", and "King Thor." Same character, three wildly different power levels. I know...
Exept in comics, there is a difference. He actually has comics showing why his power changed (specifically).





Originally posted by Space M ummy
Classic Apocalypse is USUALLY easy to spot due to the Giant "A" on his belt. I think they stopped using that after he was killed in X-factor.
The difference between "classic" apoc and "current" is that ALL of his showings prior to his death(s) were high level showings. It's canon- not speculation- that apocalypse is now using host bodies since the destruction of his original. that's a pretty solid explanation for the decrease in power if you ask me. Wait... wasn't it ret-conned that Apoc has been using different bodies his whole career?




Originally posted by Space M ummy
Our point is that all of apocalypse's higher showings date from before his death. All of his low showings date from AFTER this happened. So... why do Apoc fans use the Ikaris feat, and pass it off as Classic?
I'm not against his Classic, but really?

How about we use what you had said earlier?

Masterson Thor has put down Thanos... twice (I know it was pis, but just an example). So, I will put that in my arguement, but I will blot out all of his bad feats.
So, we have classic Thor, who can put down Thanos with the IG.

A: "Masterson was speed blitzed by Spider-Man..."
B: "Nope, that wasn't Classic Thor."
A: "But you had just used him putting down Thanos!"
B: "But that was a Classic feat!"
A: "..."

The difference here though, is that Masterson isn't exactly Thor.
Apoc is current, classic, and jeebas Apoc.

What I'm saying, is don't use teh Ikaris fight, if you are going to call it classic Apoc.
Apoc has bad feats all over, but they are still feats.

You use his good feats, but I will use all his career wins... and loses.



Originally posted by Space M ummy
It isn't PIS when it's consistent. Apocalypse was consistently written as a massively powerful individual that it took entire teams to stop. The scan from X-factor 68 isn't an exception- if you read early Xfactor he was ALWAYS that way. So... Apoc taking Black Bolt's scream isn't pis?

You have to look at BB's other shownings too, not just Apoc.

That would be like me saying, that, Wolverine has taken a Celestial attack. I know the Celestials are powerful, but could it possibly be pis?
Wolverine has been shown to take powerful attacks all the time.
So it would be consistent... right?



Originally posted by Space M ummy
depends on when it happened. Apocalypse has been powered down since his debut, Black Bolt has been powered up. Surfer has received numerous power ups. It's comics. it happens. When has Black Bolt been powered up?

Also, Surfer never had a powerup. He was off of Earth. His normal "going through suns" showings.
He gets put on his knees with a whisper.

Apoc laughs a scream off...

Sonds more like pis, than a good showing...

Also... those two feats happened around the same time...
The Surfer feat happened about in '92.
Surfer 60...


Originally posted by Space M ummy
I've already been beaten to it, but yeah, HOM was an alternate continuity in addition to occurring about 15 years after Xfactor 68. 616 Apocalypse was dead when this happened, and it isn't valid. Xfactor #68 is definitely in continuity though, and stands as one of the landmark X-books as this was the issue where Nate Summers was sent into the future to become Cable (and ironically, fight apocalypse there also!) I know...

So, just because it happened, that it is acceptable, is what you're saying?
Just because it is classic, doesn't mean it isn't anymore pis than Spider-Man beating Firelord.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
Just like Classic vs. Current Juggernaut, there are clear and explainable reasons WHY Apocalypse isn't as strong as he used to be. I don't like them, and think the plot line is incredibly bad writing, but it's there and it's canon. Classic and Current are clearly at two different power levels. I don't care... I'm just tring to figure out why people use appearances from a couple years ago, in debates, and yet, if someone uses a feat from the same time, people b*tch about it.

Also, what the hell is up with Apoc almost taking down Ikaris wth a stab wound? Eternal?

Apocalypse wins if he comes up with those great thousand year schemes. Those always turn out great

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
clapping You earned this. notworthy So, in your opinion, is Thor Herald level? Because some people on here seem to be claiming he is. I'd say it's the magic element that lets him hang with guys like Surfer, who I don't think he could beat in a straight fight......

That's like saying "Do you think Superman is herald level without being exposed to yellow sun radiation?" or "Do you think Silver Surfer would still be herald level if he didn't have the Power Cosmic?"

Originally posted by bigbran
So... you think he is more durible than Surfer?
Intriging to say the least.

Apocalypse's powerset means all of his attributes were adjustable to an unknown degree. That's strength, speed, stamina, durability, etc. is it possible he can make himself more durable than surfer? sure. The writers never put any solid limits on what he can do, and he does have a substantial amount of celestial tech.



If the event occurred before Xfactor 68, it's not classic apoc. that's when his original body was destroyed/damaged by cyclops. He didn't appear again till years later during Xcutioners Song- during that his "regeneration" was interrupted and he was severely weakened and left for dead on the moon. Shortly after that it was established (via the cyclops and phoenix series ) that apoc had begun using host bodies.



One event occured IN continuity in Xfactor. the other Occurred during house Of M, in an altered reality. the events that occurred during HOM aren't any more canon than events in Age of Apocalypse or any other "alternate reality" situation. by the time HOM occurred, Apocalypse's body AND mind had been destroyed. After HOM it was established that Cable Ressurrected him. Whatever that was that appeared in HOM wasn't the "true" apocalypse, only a "reality warp" construct created by HOM wanda. It wasn't any more real than wanda's "children" were.



so does apocalypse. the explanation is just VERY spread out and kind of vague.



no, Apocalypse had his original body up until Xfactor. His original powers didn't seem to extend much farther than immortality and blue lips, then he was changed via celestial technology into the shapeshifting modern version. He spent a couple thousand years "sleeping" but wasn't ever truly defeated until the modern age.



I was under the impression that the Ikaris feat occurred during some sort of flashback, due to the giant "A" on his belt. he hasn't been portrayed that way since the late 80s. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong though.




I'm not sure I understand this example?



no, I'm not using all his good feats, just pointing out that just about all of his good feats occurred prior to his "death" on the moon. After that, he was hugely depowered and it was established he was using host bodies. It's not that hard to understand- apocalypse is extremely powerful, gets himself killed, begins using host bodies to compensate and gets powered down.


ah, this is running long. I'll bbl

Originally posted by bigbran
So... you think he is more durible than Surfer?
srug


Apocalypse's original body always seemed to be extremely durable to at least say.

The X-Factor never seemed able to hurt him.

And once claimed when fighting them in X-Factor #25 "The madness is in your expectation of victory...as if mere ice or strength or telekinesis could affect me!".

And again, as we know, he took on a scream from Black Bolt (along with other attacks from X-Factor & Inhumans). And big force blast from the High Evolutionary, and he just laughed at both those attacks.

More durable than the Surfer? I'm not sure to say. But highly durable anyway.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
actually, yes. the definition of team wrecker IS "hey! I'm a uber powerful character!"

Hulk is certainly one of the more powerful individuals in 616 (not counting cosmics and the like) and in his heyday, yes it did take entire teams and armies to slow him down. Juggernaut is cyttorak incarnate when he feels like concentrating. Again, Classic was a character that manhandled thor and the Xmen like they were a minor irritation.

Classic Apocalypse had total control of his entire molecular structure. that's not just size change, thats "invent any power I want, when I want, to an undetermined extent." He also has enough knowledge to grant OTHER mutants with whatever powers he sees fit. Just look at his horsemen.

Regular Thor has HUGE problems with hulk and always has. Sans Mjolnir it's usually a stalemate. How many non cosmic characters can you think of that are even capable of putting and KEEPING an angry hulk in a choke hold? It's damn few. MAYBE Juggernaut, Thor at his peak, Immortal Hercules, and the list stops there.

I thought it was King Thor/RKT that Killed the Hulk. We're not debating that version of Thor- he's clearly above apocalypse.

No, grabbing celestial tech would not be "outside help." Apocalypse makes extensive use of it, and it's been implied it was involved into changing his original body into what it is/was now. Xfactor's sentient "ship" was also celestial tech, and originally his. He uses it to create his horsemen, constantly. Apocalypse has some of the most advanced tech on the PLANET, Beyond what Reed, Doom, and Iron man currently have access to.

I'm not an apocalypse fanboy or anything, but I've been reading comics since the mid 80s- long enough to notice current apoc (and sinister also, but that's another story) has been HUGELY depowered since his debut. Properly written he gives Thor a Good workout- Thor has a lot of very good showings but he's been given problems by sheer bricks like Juggernaut, Hercules, Hulk, the Wrecker, and Absorbing Man on a regular basis. Hell, Beta Ray Bill defeated him twice BEFORE he got Stormbreaker.

Apocalypse is at least as strong if he chooses to be, and a HELL of a lot smarter than all five combined. I don't think he'll sweep Thor by any means, but I think giving the man who took over the planet (in AOA) a minor majority is reasonable.

So you consider Hulk as an uber powerful character? Well that explains a lot.

Not counting cosmics and the like, Spider Man is a powerful character. Thats like saying that without NFL and College Football, I'm one of the single most greatest football players of all time.

When has Apoc invented any power he desires?

Most are his Horsemen are empowered by tech. He's not Galactus, he can't just give and remove powers.

You actually consider putting Hulk in a choke hold an impressive feat?

No, it was Thor without the odinforce and Mjolnir.

That really isn't necessary. Know ones cares about Apoc's tech. It's considered outside help to run and obtain it during battle.

Apoc gets bested by the X men.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
come on now, you're not being honest.

Thanos owned him, and that was WITH the power gem.
Galactus' power levels are all over the place. At his strongest, Thor has no shot.
The Celestials were barely phased by Thor.
Mephisto's power weakens rapidly the longer he's away from his home dimension.

Thor's standard showings are a little lower end. a nonpowered Beta Ray Bill beat him twice. Hercules Stalemates him all the time. Hulk has stalemated him a couple times. Champion, with no gem, casually dismissed him in his first appearance. Kurse is stated to be roughly twice his strength. Black bolt gave him a workout when he was holding back. (i.e. not using the scream at all.) Classic Jugs manhandled him. He usually has to trick the absorbing man....etc

Come one now, you're not being honest.

Thanos was on the losing end of that fight, and resorted to tech to win. Also, Thor had no idea how to use the power gem so it provided little help.

Doesn't matter, Thor was still able to best him.

A big crack in your dome, is considered to be barely noticed? How do you think Apoc would have done?

Mephisto was in his realm when he was bested by Thor....Twice.

Thor's standard showings far outshine most herald lv characters. I'm not talking about the Avengers "get owned by Ultron Thor". I'm, talking about the Thor as portrayed in his own comics.

Hercules stalemates Thor in test of strength, not in battles.

Hulk has also been killed by Thor.

Being BFR'd is considered a low showing?

Kurse is actually 4x his strength. However thats nothing to be ashamed of considering Kurse his arguably the single strongest character in the MU.

Black Bolt was owned in like 6 pages, and was never stated to be holding back.

Absorbing man, and Juggernaut could defeat Apoc.

I'm not sure why your bringing up low feats, but hey you do what you do.

Thor 7/10

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
clapping You earned this. notworthy So, in your opinion, is Thor Herald level? Because some people on here seem to be claiming he is. I'd say it's the magic element that lets him hang with guys like Surfer, who I don't think he could beat in a straight fight......

Hop off his sack.

Thor is top tier herald lv.

Some people? More along the lines of all knowledgeable posters.

Thats like saying that it's the power cosmic that allows Surfer to hang with characters like Thor.

Oh and BTW. Thor has bested Surfer in all their battles and was stated on panel to be the more powerful of the two.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
Apocalypse's powerset means all of his attributes were adjustable to an unknown degree. That's strength, speed, stamina, durability, etc. is it possible he can make himself more durable than surfer? sure. The writers never put any solid limits on what he can do, and he does have a substantial amount of celestial tech.



If the event occurred before Xfactor 68, it's not classic apoc. that's when his original body was destroyed/damaged by cyclops. He didn't appear again till years later during Xcutioners Song- during that his "regeneration" was interrupted and he was severely weakened and left for dead on the moon. Shortly after that it was established (via the cyclops and phoenix series ) that apoc had begun using host bodies.



One event occured IN continuity in Xfactor. the other Occurred during house Of M, in an altered reality. the events that occurred during HOM aren't any more canon than events in Age of Apocalypse or any other "alternate reality" situation. by the time HOM occurred, Apocalypse's body AND mind had been destroyed. After HOM it was established that Cable Ressurrected him. Whatever that was that appeared in HOM wasn't the "true" apocalypse, only a "reality warp" construct created by HOM wanda. It wasn't any more real than wanda's "children" were.



so does apocalypse. the explanation is just VERY spread out and kind of vague.



no, Apocalypse had his original body up until Xfactor. His original powers didn't seem to extend much farther than immortality and blue lips, then he was changed via celestial technology into the shapeshifting modern version. He spent a couple thousand years "sleeping" but wasn't ever truly defeated until the modern age.



I was under the impression that the Ikaris feat occurred during some sort of flashback, due to the giant "A" on his belt. he hasn't been portrayed that way since the late 80s. If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong though.




I'm not sure I understand this example?



no, I'm not using all his good feats, just pointing out that just about all of his good feats occurred prior to his "death" on the moon. After that, he was hugely depowered and it was established he was using host bodies. It's not that hard to understand- apocalypse is extremely powerful, gets himself killed, begins using host bodies to compensate and gets powered down.


ah, this is running long. I'll bbl

When did this become the case? As far as my knowledge Apoc claims to have control of his body on the molecular level, allowing him to shape shift, to increase density and allow his body to mimic metals and armors, to teleport, and to be virtually immune to the effects of age, increase his strength, grow to giant sizes, and gain the power of flight, sometimes through turning his arms into wings or jets.

He doesn't have an unlimited power source which he can use to augment his abilities past that of a herald.

High Herald lv characters and their power sources > Apoc's control over his body.

Originally posted by Soujaboy
So you consider Hulk as an uber powerful character? Well that explains a lot.

Not counting cosmics and the like, Spider Man is a powerful character. Thats like saying that without NFL and College Football, I'm one of the single most greatest football players of all time.

When has Apoc invented any power he desires?

Most are his Horsemen are empowered by tech. He's not Galactus, he can't just give and remove powers.

You actually consider putting Hulk in a choke hold an impressive feat?

No, it was Thor without the odinforce and Mjolnir.

That really isn't necessary. Know ones cares about Apoc's tech. It's considered outside help to run and obtain it during battle.

Apoc gets bested by the X men.

What is this, know-nothing day? Hulk has been stated by marvel to be the strongest being on Earth. Period.

Cosmics (heralds, abstracts, etc) are another class entirely. They're all freaking immortal forces of nature. I shouldn't have to point that out.

There are scads of individuals on marvel earth that are stronger/faster/etc than spiderman. Hulk is "the strongest there is."
don't get cute. If restraining an angry hulk isn't impressive, feel free to name some individuals on marvel earth who are demonstrably stronger.

As for his powers- a direct quote from Xfactor 68 (From Cyclops in regards to Apocalypse) "..in every previous encounter, when he was more our size, apocalypse was the consummate shape changer, manifesting any martial (i.e. combat) ability necessary to tip the balance in his favor.."

Marvel.com also lists his powerset as :



again, total control of his body on a molecular level. there's little he CAN'T do with it.

As for the Xmen "owning" him- never happened. Xfactor (the original- Cyke, Jean, Beast, Iceman, etc) couldn't even find a way to scratch him. The combined attacks of the X-factor and Inhumans were totally innefective. Did you even read the thread?

The Xmen never encountered the original apocalypse. (he was almost exclusively an X factor villain, IIRC) Every encounter after his "death" has been in a host body with a fraction of the power he originally had.

Apocalypse hands out powers like free candy. WTF are you talking about? He's given powers to mutants, humans, depowered mutants, and inhumans.

He turned Ozymandias (human) into immortal, living stone without the use of tech. He either gave or radically altered the powers of Caliban, Angel, Moses Magnum, Mr. Sinister, Hulk, Polaris, Sunfire, Chamber...the list is pretty damn long. Some of these were accomplished with tech, but since apocalypse's body ITSELF is composed of and a result of a crapload of celestial tech, it's a moot point.

Would Strange using his standard magical items (orb, wand, cloak, etc) be "outside help?" how about iron man using his armors? Why would apocalypse using tech he has literally laying all over the damn place be "outside help?" considering his body is techno-organic, he could probably make whatever he needs out of his own substance...

Originally posted by Space M ummy
What is this, know-nothing day? Hulk has been stated by marvel to be the strongest being on Earth. Period.

Cosmics (heralds, abstracts, etc) are another class entirely. They're all freaking immortal forces of nature. I shouldn't have to point that out.

There are scads of individuals on marvel earth that are stronger/faster/etc than spiderman. Hulk is "the strongest there is."
don't get cute. If restraining an angry hulk isn't impressive, feel free to name some individuals on marvel earth who are demonstrably stronger.

As for his powers- a direct quote from Xfactor 68 (From Cyclops in regards to Apocalypse) "..in every previous encounter, when he was more our size, apocalypse was the consummate shape changer, manifesting any martial (i.e. combat) ability necessary to tip the balance in his favor.."

Marvel.com also lists his powerset as :



again, total control of his body on a molecular level. there's little he CAN'T do with it.

As for the Xmen "owning" him- never happened. Xfactor (the original- Cyke, Jean, Beast, Iceman, etc) couldn't even find a way to scratch him. The combined attacks of the X-factor and Inhumans were totally innefective. Did you even read the thread?

The Xmen never encountered the original apocalypse. (he was almost exclusively an X factor villain, IIRC) Every encounter after his "death" has been in a host body with a fraction of the power he originally had.

Apocalypse hands out powers like free candy. WTF are you talking about? He's given powers to mutants, humans, depowered mutants, and inhumans.

He turned Ozymandias (human) into immortal, living stone without the use of tech. He either gave or radically altered the powers of Caliban, Angel, Moses Magnum, Mr. Sinister, Hulk, Polaris, Sunfire, Chamber...the list is pretty damn long. Some of these were accomplished with tech, but since apocalypse's body ITSELF is composed of and a result of a crapload of celestial tech, it's a moot point.

Would Strange using his standard magical items (orb, wand, cloak, etc) be "outside help?" how about iron man using his armors? Why would apocalypse using tech he has literally laying all over the damn place be "outside help?" considering his body is techno-organic, he could probably make whatever he needs out of his own substance...

He has granted powers to others, but usually when he augments an individual or turns them into a horseman, he does so via Celestial tech. But he is capable of doing it on his own, as demonstrated with Ozymandias and others. Apocalypse has shown on several occasions to be able to make items, technology, and indeed, metals and other things from his body. Check the respect thread.

Hulk as physically the strongest on earth? Well, Juggernaut is possibly higher at classic levels, but I'll co-sign that for now.

Btw, Chamber was altered with a dose of his blood, no tech, nothing else. However, Chamber isn't a great example, as although the blood healed him and seems to have restored his powers, it may partially be because Chamber himself is Apocalypse's great great great great grandson.

Moses Magnum's powers got screwed up with a mere thought from Apocalypse. Apoc granted him the power in the first place, via tech, but Magnum's death was caused by Apoc willing Magnum's power to be outside his control. Moses lost control of his powers and was killed by his own abilities.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Hulk as physically the strongest on earth? Well, Juggernaut is possibly higher at classic levels, but I'll co-sign that for now.


Classic jugs is one of the few on earth that were at hulk's levels. neither one really has any definitive "limit" to how strong they can get, though Juggernaut has a little bit of an edge due to the whole unlimited endurance thing. there's a huge, tiresome thread on juggernaut vs. hulk that I'd rather not repeat...

Thor at his peak (lifting the midgard serpent, etc) possibly BRB, and immortal hercules are also around the same class. none of those four has shown to be demonstrably stronger than the other though.

Originally posted by Soujaboy
Hop off his sack.

Thor is top tier herald lv.

Some people? More along the lines of all knowledgeable posters.

Thats like saying that it's the power cosmic that allows Surfer to hang with characters like Thor.

Oh and BTW. Thor has bested Surfer in all their battles and was stated on panel to be the more powerful of the two.

Thor has a 3-0 record with SS in direct combat, one of the fights SS was amped by all of Loki's power, and Thor defeated him without even trying the entire fight.

Another time, SS was blood lusted, stated on panel he wasn't holding back, and was bested by Thor again.

etc. etc.

Apoc never morphed Ozymadias....it says in the scan that ozyadias changed when he hit the machinery....all apocalypse did was hit him.....

Originally posted by Space M ummy
come on now, you're not being honest.
I'm very honest
Originally posted by Space M ummy
Thanos owned him, and that was WITH the power gem.
Ah, ur kidding right? ..thanos was getting owned by Thor in that fight. Thanos won because he had to rely on his tech..remember?
The same guy in Thor was owning the Infinity Watch, Surfer, and Doc Strange. He was above thanos during that encounter.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
Galactus' power levels are all over the place. At his strongest, Thor has no shot.
of course galactus is stronger than Thor. But Thor did in fact have Galactus a hurting that he hasn't felt in a over 1000 years.
it is still more impressive than any feats Apoc has under his belt.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
The Celestials were barely phased by Thor.
yet Thor has shown so crack Celestial armor on at least two occasions.
One with the Mjinor
http://img125.imageshack.us/my.php?image=thor300304eg.jpg
Same fight, Thor possess the strength to wield the Odin Sword, and drive it right through Arishem
http://img372.imageshack.us/my.php?image=thor300336va.jpg
http://img125.imageshack.us/my.php?image=thor300347ux.jpg
Here is Thor cracking Exitar's Dome:
http://img220.imageshack.us/my.php?image=thor38809hc7.jpg
http://img220.imageshack.us/my.php?image=thor38810yh9.jpg
Celestials >>>>>Apoc, Thor will have no problem smashing Apoc and his inferior stolen Celestial tech

Originally posted by Space M ummy
Mephisto's power weakens rapidly the longer he's away from his home dimension.
Actually Thor fought Mephisto's his own dimension, and bested Marvel's Devil:
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/3171/thor20198120233102001rj3.jpg
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/2280/thor20198120233102002wh8.jpg
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/7355/thor20198120233102003al8.jpg
http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/4355/thor20198120233102004ue6.jpg
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/3660/thor20198120233102005xd2.jpg
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/6530/thor20198120233102006xc6.jpg
http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/811/thor20198120233102007pq5.jpg
http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/1918/thor20198120233102008dj5.jpg
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/5553/thor20198120233102009am3.jpg
http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/2544/thor20198120233102010qi0.jpg
http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/5217/thor20198120233102011fq1.jpg

Originally posted by Space M ummy
Thor's standard showings are a little lower end. a nonpowered Beta Ray Bill beat him twice. Hercules Stalemates him all the time. Hulk has stalemated him a couple times. Champion, with no gem, casually dismissed him in his first appearance.
And Apoc looses to the X-men, Ur point?
We are using going by the best of Thor abilities, are we not?

Originally posted by Space M ummy
Kurse is stated to be roughly twice his strength.
Kurse is Actually 4 times Thor in Strength.

Originally posted by Space M ummy
Black bolt gave him a workout when he was holding back. (i.e. not using the scream at all.)
U realize Thor holds back in all his fight, when he goes out he's a monster, look at the scans i just posted.
Originally posted by Space M ummy
Classic Jugs manhandled him. He usually has to trick the absorbing man....etc
Classic juggy can be beat by physical force. It just shows Thor's versatility, he doesn't have to rely on just his strength to win fights.
Apoc wouldn't out slug juggy as well.
Thor has more experiance in combat, and he's a God, Apoc is a self proclaimed god that relys heavly on his tech to sustain him.
Anything Apoc can do Thor can best his abilites.
Thor FTW
Originally posted by TricksterPriest
So, in your opinion, is Thor Herald level? Because some people on here seem to be claiming he is. I'd say it's the magic element that lets him hang with guys like Surfer, who I don't think he could beat in a straight fight......
Yes he is a High end Herald, He has beaten every herald he had encountered in the past in combat, at one point or another.

I still wanna know how Apoc is gonna go about defeating Thor?

Originally posted by Soujaboy
I still wanna know how Apoc is gonna go about defeating Thor?

increase to 1000x times size of Thor and then pound Thor to death.

Originally posted by masterbruce
increase to 1000x times size of Thor and then pound Thor to death.

As said earlier, Thor can shrink his opponents. Also, I don't see how increasing your size helps in a battle such as this. This wont be a physical battle.

Thor

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
Thor hahahaha your opening all of these up just to make a fool out of him i see.

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
Thor Thor.

Originally posted by bigbran
Thor.

I really think that Apoc can absorb most of what Thor throws at him. Apoc 6/10. Without Mjorin 9/10.