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Who wins?

Nightwing loses on a regular basis...didnt you get the memo?

Originally posted by steverules
Who wins?

RH ftw

It's made blatantly obvious several times in the story arc that Nightwing holds back against Jason.

Originally posted by guy222
RH ftw

Nightwing

Originally posted by Validus
It's made blatantly obvious several times in the story arc that Nightwing holds back against Jason.
Also in the issues following that arc it was revealed he was/is still suffering from the injuries he got after the blast from Luthor in IC #7 which he is only just getting over.

In their fight in the Outsiders Nightwing clearly got the better of the close-quarter fighting and managed to pin Red Hood against the wall, at which point Jason had to pull out a gun.

Originally posted by Wally West
Also in the issues following that arc it was revealed he was/is still suffering from the injuries he got after the blast from Luthor in IC #7 which he is only just getting over.

In their fight in the Outsiders Nightwing clearly got the better of the close-quarter fighting and managed to pin Red Hood against the wall, at which point Jason had to pull out a gun.

Agreed. Nightwing is the much better fighter. Red hood wouldn't stand a chance. Nightwing fights down to Jason's level out of courtesy. If they fight for real, is Jason doesn't have any prep time he goes down hard.

Jason still has one figth with Batman that Grayson never replicated.

Plus, i like how its stated he helds back in one arc where Jason wasent figthing hard either, but instead would spend the matches just pissing his "older brother" up.

Can really go either way, but in a all out match, the Hood of today brings more to the table than Grayson has.

Jeez. The last time 'Wing fought Bruce he was practically crying over all himself. Way to use that against him.

On the same token, I can't see Jason pulling the same level of performance that Grayson has against Slade.

We cant either way, since he never encountered Slade. We can however compare both against Bruce.

I dont even think either is off the charts in skill with the other, they tend to even out. What i dont agree its that Grayson bringing more to the table than Jason nowadays.

Depends on what you mean by bringing more to the table.

Red Hood.He was holding back in Outsiders,he just wanted to talk.Plus the second fight they had Wing came up from behind and slammed Jasons head into the front of the car then got punked.He couldn't even bring down Jason on his first night as Robin....

Nightwing is what Jason truly wants to be. If Dick cut lose then Jason would be his. IMO

Eh im gonna have to side with RH on this one, just barely.

Originally posted by Validus
Depends on what you mean by bringing more to the table.
Agility, smarts, the ability to prep off hand, the ability to improvise, mastery with weapons, figthing dirty, more combat driven, physical prowess, figthing skills.

Jason has a better range of these abilities nowadays, than Grayson does.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
He couldn't even bring down Jason on his first night as Robin....
I can't believe you try and use that as an example of Jason being better than Dick, its ridiculous. You never show the scan of Nightwing catching Jason up after he ran off and pinning him to the floor while he steals his radio and chats to Batman, or Nightwing saving Robin as he falls off the train, you just show that one where he throws some rocks at Nightwing and runs away and act like Nightwing got owned. Nightwing was just confused as to why someone was running around dressed as Robin, Jason at that point had nothing on Nightwing. In fact if you want I'll show scans of Jason as Robin saying to himself "If they can do that to Dick Grayson what could they do to me?!" and other examples where Jason admits he isn't as good as Nightwing.

And olympian, you can't seriously be suggesting Jason has better agility than Nightwing? Nightwing is the one DC describe as the best acrobat in the world, not Red Hood. In Hush all he did was mimick Nightwing's style, it was never said he did it as well or better than Nightwing himself.

RH simply for the badass factor.

Red Hood sucks, way to fail at having your own Winter Soldier DC .

Nightwing: Agility, Skill, Experience.. he has all of these things in much higher quantities than Jason. If Dick were to fight as ruthless as Jason acts towards him Jase would get pwned, he wouldn't even need to draw a gun either.

Nightwing mops the floor with Red Hood like his spoiled evil twin clone. Here's a perfect comparision of the two as Robin:

Jason's first appearance as Robin he can barely jump off a train without killing himself. Dick(whose 5 years younger) can dodge bullets, beat Ivy, Joker all with natural skills that amaze even Batman.

NW has feats against opponents that RH only wishes he had. The day he can catch Slades sword, knock out a meta like Blockbuster with sheer punches and has half his agility, experience and natural talents and fighting prowess is the day Todd gets some respect.

Until then since he has no character merits of his own and he'll continue to steal as many of Dick Graysons identities as he wants (NW, Red Robin etc) mauling his legacy in a pathetic attempt to give himself some of Grayson's hard earned respect because he isn't worthy to get one on his own. He doesn't have the character merit, so DC keeps giving him NW's costumes, plots, identities and legacy.

Here's a message for DC: No matter how hard you try to make Jason cool, give him Nightwing's costume, give him Grayson's respected elseworld identities just so he can gleen a little respect--its not working. Jason Todd is a failed Robin no matter how hard you try and he'll never be half as good as NW.

Jason Todd I heard was like the worst Robin, right? Even worse than Drake, or the least skilled one. Batman even said it himself and was scared that he could easily get killed. But still, regardless, he stocked up on guns and ammo and furthered his training which even had Batman and NW saying, "He is good." But he would still lose IMO. Nightwing---> faster, more agile, more skilled, def smarter, but def not as ruthless which would give RH about 4 wins out of 10. Nightwing wins IMO 6/10

Hood is definitley the better H2H combatant, but doesn't have the expierience or agility that Wing has... that being said, he'll be able to keep up well enough to take the win.

Originally posted by SpunkySmurph
Hood is definitley the better H2H combatant,

Based on what exactly? Since even in the recent outsiders tussle hood was outmaneavered and had to resort to pulling out a gun.

Originally posted by braz
Batman even said it himself and was scared that he could easily get killed.

I think that was due to wrecklessness. When Jason was Robin he owned Nightwing in a quick confrontation.

No he didn't. Maybe you should read the whole comic instead of just 1 or 2 scans in the Red Hood respect thread.

Originally posted by Wally West
No he didn't. Maybe you should read the whole comic instead of just 1 or 2 scans in the Red Hood respect thread.



Good advice. .

Red Hood imo is a better fighter. Thats it though. Dick still is more agile, has way more experience and isn't dwarfed enough by Jason in skills for it to be a curbstop. In an all out match Dick's combination of his skills (agility, quick mind, etc) will score him the win.

Originally posted by Wally West
And olympian, you can't seriously be suggesting Jason has better agility than Nightwing? Nightwing is the one DC describe as the best acrobat in the world, not Red Hood. In Hush all he did was mimick Nightwing's style, it was never said he did it as well or better than Nightwing himself.

He doesnt have better agility no. What i said was that Jason nowadays its more versatible on working on a wider range of abilities than Grayson is. He has good agility and great prep ability and great ability to improvise and...blah blah.

Grayson is in the top 3 of DC`s acrobats but his range of abilities in later years hasent been as wider. Thats why i see Hood bring "more to the table".

I dont agree with Grayson being the # 1 DC acrobat, tho. Always had the feeling that it was Deadman.

Originally posted by Wally West
No he didn't. Maybe you should read the whole comic instead of just 1 or 2 scans in the Red Hood respect thread.

I dont chalk that showing higher than it should either, because its clear that Grayson was caugh off guard with the whole situation. However the last two drops on Grayson in the streeth alley were impressive for a rookie Jason, one has to admit.

Originally posted by Wally West
No he didn't. Maybe you should read the whole comic instead of just 1 or 2 scans in the Red Hood respect thread.

Well I was just going by memory. Jason didnt own Nightwing but it was still an impressive showing at one point he was handcuffed.

Originally posted by Soljer


Good advice. .

Yes it is, but have you ever commented on scans without actually reading the comic? Yes, you have.

Originally posted by olympian
I dont agree with Grayson being the # 1 DC acrobat, tho. Always had the feeling that it was Deadman.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/Ixion83/nworigin2.jpg

"The world's greatest acrobat". Thats very recent as well, was from 52.

By the Wally I made a post you might have missed it.

Sorry did miss it

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well I was just going by memory. Jason didnt own Nightwing but it was still an impressive showing at one point he was handcuffed. Yeah it was a good showing for Jason, I just don't like people saying he owned Nightwing there or that Jason was better than Nightwing at that point. But Jason managing to escape and get away (temporarily) was a decent showing for him, Nightwing did have to save his life a couple of times right after that and it was clear Nightwing was way more skilled then.

Well,No-one with a hint of sanity would say Jason was better,I just say it like that because it pisses of Entity.

Still,the one fight were Nightwing did get the advantage,Jason said he didn't want to fight,so Nightwings wins aren't written in stone either.His agility isn't that much better,since Batman thought Jason was Clayface mimicking Nightwing.Jason has jus been performing at a higher level then NW since his return IMO.

But that Nightwing recuperating thing is wrong....in his latest annual he was well on the road to recovery before he went with Batman on the cruise...

Plus Nightwing is not what Jason wants to be Jason paid out on Nightwing in WW3 and called him a pussy.Jason has his eyes set on being better then Batman,and personally he's shown himself to be closer to that then Dick ever has IMO.

Originally posted by Wally West
Sorry did miss it

Yeah it was a good showing for Jason, I just don't like people saying he owned Nightwing there or that Jason was better than Nightwing at that point. But Jason managing to escape and get away (temporarily) was a decent showing for him, Nightwing did have to save his life a couple of times right after that and it was clear Nightwing was way more skilled then.

Yeah my bad, I wasnt really thinking when I posted that response.

Originally posted by Martian_mind
But that Nightwing recuperating thing is wrong....in his latest annual he was well on the road to recovery before he went with Batman on the cruise...
Its not wrong, his injured shoulder is mentioned or shown in issues #125-129 which are set after the Jason arc, two people he fights even notice it and comment on it, I think the last two Nightwing issues are when he has gotten over it. It might be a bit of retconning on Wolfman's part, but he definately established Nightwing was still suffering from the Luthor blast.

Nightwing still wins this.....

Nightwing for the win 9/10

DC can retconn jason and all that,,jason can have his badass self,i will take the 40 + years(15 years in comics?) of dick grayson growing up in comics over a retconned dead short lived robin

Bad idea DC-Jason should have stayed dead

Originally posted by Martian_mind
Well,No-one with a hint of sanity would say Jason was better,I just say it like that because it pisses of Entity.

Still,the one fight were Nightwing did get the advantage,Jason said he didn't want to fight,so Nightwings wins aren't written in stone either.His agility isn't that much better,since Batman thought Jason was Clayface mimicking Nightwing.Jason has jus been performing at a higher level then NW since his return IMO.

But that Nightwing recuperating thing is wrong....in his latest annual he was well on the road to recovery before he went with Batman on the cruise...

Plus Nightwing is not what Jason wants to be Jason paid out on Nightwing in WW3 and called him a pussy.Jason has his eyes set on being better then Batman,and personally he's shown himself to be closer to that then Dick ever has IMO. There's a difference between mimicking Nw moves and Nw doing the moves.Agility isn't even close seeing as Dick was the best acrobat when he was 8.

Nightwing ftw