You cannot Prove God's existence.

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JacopeX
Or prove that the bible is all fake. It is actually based on faith. I am catholic and I believe that faith is what you have even if your a non believer, or Christian, catholic, Muslim, etc. You cant prove god is real or not. Thats impossible really, as well as proving the existence of god wrong. All I have is faith, and I will always believe in god and my religion, holy spirit, Holy Catholic church, and life everlasting.

So, I think it is pretty pointless to try to prove that God and the bible is true or false. If you don't believe in god, that is fine with me. You just don't have faith with it. You don't believe in a god. Does not mean you should try to ruin it all with so many things. We have our defence of our religion as well, but in my opinion, its all faith. So lets end the whole debate and move on. big grin

Thoughts?

dirkdirden
Proof to disprove god is out there we just haven't found it yet, when we do the world will spiral into chaos and I will dance in the blood of the pope.

Seraphim XIII
Absence of proof isn't proof of absence.

We cannot prove his existence nor can we prove he does not exist.

Grimm22
Thats what faith is all about really, having hope in something that all other sources would tell you is wrong.

Science is about facts, Religion is about faith

dirkdirden
Originally posted by Seraphim XIII
Absence of proof isn't proof of absence.

We cannot prove his existence nor can we prove he does not exist.

For now that holds true but Proof of his of his non-existence will come either by science or by time either way people will either give up faith because there was never a second coming or they will find scientifically proof.

lord xyz
Originally posted by JacopeX
Or prove that the bible is all fake. It is actually based on faith. I am catholic and I believe that faith is what you have even if your a non believer, or Christian, catholic, Muslim, etc. You cant prove god is real or not. Thats impossible really, as well as proving the existence of god wrong. All I have is faith, and I will always believe in god and my religion, holy spirit, Holy Catholic church, and life everlasting.

So, I think it is pretty pointless to try to prove that God and the bible is true or false. If you don't believe in god, that is fine with me. You just don't have faith with it. You don't believe in a god. Does not mean you should try to ruin it all with so many things. We have our defence of our religion as well, but in my opinion, its all faith. So lets end the whole debate and move on. big grin

Thoughts? You do realise the story was made up. Are you going to tell us that Tom Sawyer can't be proved non-existant aswell? See, religion is a story that isn't supposed to be taken seriously and shouldn't be taken as fact. That's the problem we have with you people. While we're trying to find out how the world works, you're arguing with us -- saying what some dead guy said was right. By believing the Bible story -- or any story -- you are delusional. You being delusional means anything relative to subject you are delusioned of, makes you wrong.

Yes, we can't prove God's existance or God's non-existance, but who are you to say you're interpretation or what you were told from someone you trusted, loved and was, at the time, depended on is right?

JacopeX
Originally posted by dirkdirden
Proof to disprove god is out there we just haven't found it yet, when we do the world will spiral into chaos and I will dance in the blood of the pope. To me that was just sick.

Anyways, I doubt there is any proof out there at all.

JacopeX
Originally posted by lord xyz
You do realise the story was made up. Are you going to tell us that Tom Sawyer can't be proved non-existant aswell? See, religion is a story that isn't supposed to be taken seriously and shouldn't be taken as fact. That's the problem we have with you people. While we're trying to find out how the world works, you're arguing with us -- saying what some dead guy said was right. By believing the Bible story -- or any story -- you are delusional. You being delusional means anything relative to subject you are delusioned of, makes you wrong.

Yes, we can't prove God's existance or God's non-existance, but who are you to say you're interpretation or what you were told from someone you trusted, loved and was, at the time, depended on is right? Faith. that is all i will say and let me explain to you why. Tom sawyer first of all is a human. God is not. And I take religion as a belief, not a fact, but my perspective, and among others see it that way. And that is why I go to school to see how the world works. Or course. Not all religious people are what you think they are, and who knows about the majority of them? They might belive something else aswell.

Ushgarak
Originally posted by Seraphim XIII
Absence of proof isn't proof of absence.

We cannot prove his existence nor can we prove he does not exist.

There is no need to prove he does not exist. It is incumbent upon a person to prove he does. Science is not in the ridiculous business of proving negatives.

Jacopex, your idea falls down at the point where it is being debated whether religion is actively harmful. You can't live and let live if that is so. So the debate goes on.

WrathfulDwarf
Proof of God is best to leave it for Theology and Philosophy.

Science is totally separate.

Would someone use a Biology book to repair a car? Would a carperter use a natural science book as a guide for fixing a wooden table? No, so why use Science to prove things that...don't really have much to do with each other.

Shakyamunison
You cannot Prove God's existence.

What does it matter?

Lord Melkor
But many things we explain with science nowadays was once the domain of Religion and Gods- for example diseases being the work of evil spirits, and lighting or earthquakes being the wrath of Gods. So you can say that religion is area not yet discovered as science, from this point of view.

dirkdirden
Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Proof of God is best to leave it for Theology and Philosophy.

Science is totally separate.

Would someone use a Biology book to repair a car? Would a carperter use a natural science book as a guide for fixing a wooden table? No, so why use Science to prove things that...don't really have much to do with each other.

Science in the future will be able to prove galaxies, planets and life are not created by god. If god didn't create earth, didn't create us, and didn't create the sun what exactly did he do........yeah he'd be finished once that science is proven.

Hydrono

Bardock42
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You cannot Prove God's existence.

What does it matter?

You cannot prove a pink unicorns existence either and we don't base our judgment on the teachings of said unicorn. It matters. A lot.

WrathfulDwarf
Originally posted by dirkdirden
Science in the future will be able to prove galaxies, planets and life are not created by god. If god didn't create earth, didn't create us, and didn't create the sun what exactly did he do........yeah he'd be finished once that science is proven.

Last I heard Science "discovers" not "proves" things. If you want to prove something then you have to be a forensic scientist and prove someone use a knife to kill the victim.

JacopeX
Originally posted by Lord Melkor
But many things we explain with science nowadays was once the domain of Religion and Gods- for example diseases being the work of evil spirits, and lighting or earthquakes being the wrath of Gods. So you can say that religion is area not yet discovered as science, from this point of view. YOU CANT compare science and religion.

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
You cannot Prove God's existence.

What does it matter?
and you cannot disprove it. point?

Bardock42
Originally posted by JacopeX
YOU CANT compare science and religion.

Yes you can in many, many aspects.

Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Last I heard Science "discovers" not "proves" things. If you want to prove something then you have to be a forensic scientist and prove someone use a knife to kill the victim.

Science also proves.

TRH
So your saying we should end the debate and close the forum?

Hydrono
Originally posted by Bardock42
You cannot prove a pink unicorns existence either and we don't base our judgment on the teachings of said unicorn. It matters. A lot.

True

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Bardock42
You cannot prove a pink unicorns existence either and we don't base our judgment on the teachings of said unicorn. It matters. A lot.

It is just as futile to spend time trying to disprove god as it is to try and prove god. We all have better things to do.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
It is just as futile to spend time trying to disprove god as it is to try and prove god. We all have better things to do.

Like listen to what that God we can't prove says and decide the most horrendous and harmful thingsw according to it?

Hydrono

Shakyamunison

Bardock42
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
God does not talk to us. It is "us" who does the "horrendous and harmful things". wink

How do you know?

Boris
Originally posted by JacopeX
Or prove that the bible is all fake. It is actually based on faith. I am catholic and I believe that faith is what you have even if your a non believer, or Christian, catholic, Muslim, etc. You cant prove god is real or not. Thats impossible really, as well as proving the existence of god wrong. All I have is faith, and I will always believe in god and my religion, holy spirit, Holy Catholic church, and life everlasting.

So, I think it is pretty pointless to try to prove that God and the bible is true or false. If you don't believe in god, that is fine with me. You just don't have faith with it. You don't believe in a god. Does not mean you should try to ruin it all with so many things. We have our defence of our religion as well, but in my opinion, its all faith. So lets end the whole debate and move on. big grin

Thoughts?

Actually, you can very well prove the Bible is incorrect in what it says and that most of it is fiction.

Going by blind faith is a joke, wake yourself up and realise the truth.

Peoples faith and believe in something that is wrong and quite dangerous is deffo worth ruining.

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
It is just as futile to spend time trying to disprove god as it is to try and prove god. We all have better things to do.
VERY well said. you either believe or you dont.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Bardock42
How do you know?

Occam's razor

Hydrono
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
God does not talk to us. It is "us" who does the "horrendous and harmful things". wink



Gods don't justify; see above.

Yes, we both know that the gods don't really speak to us but when we claim that these gods speak or even exist, the problem spawns. I agree with what you said above but the problem is when we use the concept of god to justify our acts, we have a problem.

Seraphim XIII
Originally posted by lord xyz
You do realise the story was made up. Are you going to tell us that Tom Sawyer can't be proved non-existant aswell? See, religion is a story that isn't supposed to be taken seriously and shouldn't be taken as fact. That's the problem we have with you people. While we're trying to find out how the world works, you're arguing with us -- saying what some dead guy said was right. By believing the Bible story -- or any story -- you are delusional. You being delusional means anything relative to subject you are delusioned of, makes you wrong.

Yes, we can't prove God's existence or God's non-existence, but who are you to say you're interpretation or what you were told from someone you trusted, loved and was, at the time, depended on is right?

Drop the bullshit, XYZ. Stop dismissing a theory as solid proof for proving that God is inexistent.

I guarantee no one will be able to prove whether god exists or doesn't exist. You keep on forgetting that god's existence and religion itself is a theory; Just as Science is a theory. Not everything in Science is correct or true and it sure as hell doesn't hold water seeing as it balances itself on theory.

Proving that God does not exist will be impossible. Trust me. Proving that he exists will be Impossible. Trust me.

It's an unknown, and for those who say "GOD DOES NOT EXIST, 100%!" and for those who say "GOD EXISTS 100% AND HE'S RETURNING"...

You both sound bloody ridiculous, to be honest.

Leave it alone. You're not finding out until you die so get over it. Good lord ...

Bardock42
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Occam's razor

Oh, so you don't know at all...also use Occam's Razor incorrectly...

Seraphim XIII
Originally posted by Bardock42
Oh, so you don't know at all...also use Occam's Razor incorrectly...

He's right. Why did you proclaim "Occam's Razor"?

Only utilized when pointing out when someone has chosen one theory from a vista of theories for which that selected theory has the least attachments and assumptions.

My good sir, you have performed an error.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Bardock42
Oh, so you don't know at all...also use Occam's Razor incorrectly...

Troll.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Troll.

N-no...just a reasonable debater...sorry that you are not accustomed to it here.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Bardock42
N-no...just a reasonable debater...sorry that you are not accustomed to it here.

Not reasonable, more like a trap. I will not debate a child.

Seraphim XIII
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Not reasonable, more like a trap. I will not debate a child.

Drop the semantics and stick to the subject, will you?

lord xyz
Originally posted by JacopeX
Faith. that is all i will say and let me explain to you why. Tom sawyer first of all is a human. God is not. And I take religion as a belief, not a fact, but my perspective, and among others see it that way. And that is why I go to school to see how the world works. Or course. Not all religious people are what you think they are, and who knows about the majority of them? They might belive something else aswell. Well, why do you believe?

Bardock42
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Not reasonable, more like a trap. I will not debate a child.

I'm not a child and apparently I know what I am talking about and don't just throw random phrases around to appear smart.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Bardock42
I'm not a child and apparently I know what I am talking about and don't just throw random phrases around to appear smart.

What was it I said? Oh ya, I said it was a waist of my time.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Seraphim XIII
Drop the semantics and stick to the subject, will you?

What are you talking about?

Bardock42
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
What was it I said? Oh ya, I said it was a waist of my time.

And then went ahead to claim that God doesn't speak with us...for whatever reason you decided that that is provable but whether he exists not is beyond me.

Ushgarak
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Troll.

That's unjustified. He was making a fair criticism; meet it or reject it, but don't proclaim 'troll', that's not on.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Bardock42
And then went ahead to claim that God doesn't speak with us...for whatever reason you decided that that is provable but whether he exists not is beyond me.

So does god talk to you?crazy laughing

Bardock42
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
So does god talk to you?crazy laughing

No.

What has that to do with anything, you can't argue on such small levels and then apply it to everything, since apparently God is talking to sithsaber...I don't think it does. But since you don't speak out against the existence of God how can you be so sure that this God does not talk to people?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Bardock42
No.

What has that to do with anything, you can't argue on such small levels and then apply it to everything, since apparently God is talking to sithsaber...I don't think it does. But since you don't speak out against the existence of God how can you be so sure that this God does not talk to people?

I was just checking to see if you had a personal luncheon with god lately. That would explain why you have such a strong opinion on rather god can talk to us.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I was just checking to see if you had a personal luncheon with god lately. That would explain why you have such a strong opinion on rather god can talk to us.
I don't have a strong opinion on God talking to us, in fact I agree with you, what I don't understand is the totally different behaviours you portray.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Bardock42
I don't have a strong opinion on God talking to us, in fact I agree with you, what I don't understand is the totally different behaviours you portray.

What behaviours are you talking about?

Bardock42
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
What behaviours are you talking about?

Saying that we can't prove God and shouldn't care about it, but when we talk about some people thinking they talk to God you deny that as a possibility. Just odd.

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by Bardock42
Oh, so you don't know at all...also use Occam's Razor incorrectly...
i use gillette mach 5....thats just me. smile

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Bardock42
Saying that we can't prove God and shouldn't care about it, but when we talk about some people thinking they talk to God you deny that as a possibility. Just odd.

Some people may think they talk to god, and most of the time it is as simple as opening the bible. Sometimes "talk to god" is code for reading the bible. Other people "talk to god" by listening to the inner self, or to nature. But none of this is really talking to god. So, when someone claims they can talk to god, I assume they mean metaphorically. However, I was talking literally.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Some people may think they talk to god, and most of the time it is as simple as opening the bible. Sometimes "talk to god" is code for reading the bible. Other people "talk to god" by listening to the inner self, or to nature. But none of this is really talking to god. So, when someone claims they can talk to god, I assume they mean metaphorically. However, I was talking literally.

What if they mean it literally? Why are you certain that that can't be possible?

Rogue Jedi
Originally posted by Bardock42
What if they mean it literally? Why are you certain that that can't be possible?
EXACTLY my question. how can you say its not possible?

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Bardock42
What if they mean it literally? Why are you certain that that can't be possible?

1. God can literally talk to us.

2. God cannot literally talk to us.

Which is the simpler answer?

In the first answer, there would have to be a god being to talk to us. God being + talking to us. In the second answer, there would not be a god being. I think the second on is simpler then the first one.

Lord Urizen
If God truly exists, then why does he not allow his existance to be proven ?



Is this all part of "testing our Faith" and "punishing the doubters" ? erm




I also think it's sad that so many of us resort to the beleif in God because we cannot face the real world. This world is full of suffering and cruelty yes, but we have the power to change it. Hiding behind a deity that no one knows to truly exist is cowardly in my opinion.


Also "leaving it all up to God" is lazy, and an easy way out for us to not have to commit to our duties of helping others in need.

Alliance
Side note: Occam's razor is wrong. Period.

Anyone who uses it against religion does nothing but make a fool of themselves imo.

xmarksthespot
One cannot prove or disprove the existence of a god.

That does not necessarily mean one cannot prove or disprove the various claims made by religious texts or religious people.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Alliance
Side note: Occam's razor is wrong. Period.

Anyone who uses it against religion does nothing but make a fool of themselves imo.


Why do you have such a strong opinion on using Occam's razor against religion? Are you referring to the futility of doing so?

Alliance
I have a strong opinion against using Occams razor at all. This 14th century principle no longer functions adequately in modern logic.

Simple explanations are usually more effective, but the simplist explination is often not the best. Oversimplification is a gross error, and modern science has shown that things don't always work in the simplest of fashions.

Trying to disprove god is a logical fallacy. People assume god becuase the concept is hammered into thier heads from birth. An assumption without justification is not a strong starting ground for an argument.

Thus people who shout "Occam's razor" to disprove god are:
1. entering into an arguemnt in which they cannot logically win
2. Using an archaic concept to attack another one when both religion and science have thankfully evolved to new levels.
3. Using a precept that is flawed and does not accurately represent the natural world beyond a basic essence.

Thats pretty much a complete failure to me.

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Alliance
I have a strong opinion against using Occams razor at all. This 14th century principle no longer functions adequately in modern logic.

Simple explanations are usually more effective, but the simplist explination is often not the best. Oversimplification is a gross error, and modern science has shown that things don't always work in the simplest of fashions.

Trying to disprove god is a logical fallacy. People assume god becuase the concept is hammered into thier heads from birth. An assumption without justification is not a strong starting ground for an argument.

Thus people who shout "Occam's razor" to disprove god are:
1. entering into an arguemnt in which they cannot logically win
2. Using an archaic concept to attack another one when both religion and science have thankfully evolved to new levels.
3. Using a precept that is flawed and does not accurately represent the natural world beyond a basic essence.

Thats pretty much a complete failure to me.

Occam's razor
"When you have two competing theories which make exactly the same predictions, the one that is simpler is the better."

If you don't like that one, how about this one?

Carl Sagan
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof."

So if someone claims that they talk to god, that would be an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary proof.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
1. God can literally talk to us.

2. God cannot literally talk to us.

Which is the simpler answer?

In the first answer, there would have to be a god being to talk to us. God being + talking to us. In the second answer, there would not be a god being. I think the second on is simpler then the first one.

If he exists 1, if he doesn't 2


God existed forever and is for some reason all powerful and decided for some reason to create the Universe.

The Universe came into existence without such ridiculous paradoxons.

Which is the simpler answer?

Also, don't you see why that is ridiculous. You apply it when it comes to talking to God, but not when it comes to God itself...it is just mindbogglingly idiotic.
Originally posted by Alliance
Side note: Occam's razor is wrong. Period.

Anyone who uses it against religion does nothing but make a fool of themselves imo. It's not wrong..it's just...not proving anything. It can be helpful.

Alfheim
The problem with proving the existence of god is that it depends on your defintion. One of the defintions of what God is that he is infinite and therefore cannot be fully comprehended. If you cannot fully comprehend something it stands to reason you will never find a 100 proof for its existence.

Seraphim XIII
What is with appealing to empty conclusions on this thread?

"God just doesn't exist."

"Occam's razor is just wrong."

Seriously, no room for nothing. So fallible.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Seraphim XIII
What is with appealing to empty conclusions on this thread?

"God just doesn't exist."

"Occam's razor is just wrong."

Seriously, no room for nothing. So fallible.

At any rate I agree with your opinion. You cant prove or disprove God exists.

Ushgarak
Once again. Disproving he exists is completely irrelevant. There is no need.

lord xyz
Originally posted by Seraphim XIII
Drop the bullshit, XYZ. Stop dismissing a theory as solid proof for proving that God is inexistent.

I guarantee no one will be able to prove whether god exists or doesn't exist. You keep on forgetting that god's existence and religion itself is a theory; Just as Science is a theory. Not everything in Science is correct or true and it sure as hell doesn't hold water seeing as it balances itself on theory.

Proving that God does not exist will be impossible. Trust me. Proving that he exists will be Impossible. Trust me.

It's an unknown, and for those who say "GOD DOES NOT EXIST, 100%!" and for those who say "GOD EXISTS 100% AND HE'S RETURNING"...

You both sound bloody ridiculous, to be honest.

Leave it alone. You're not finding out until you die so get over it. Good lord ... What has dying got to do with it?

The fact that God is made up is evidence enough, he doesn't exist. Unicorns are made up, are you going to say they may exist? Well, yes, it's possible, but the thread starter is saying he has faith it existing. That really annoys me, becaue he says he has faith, and since we can't disprove his faith, he can't be wrong. But, nor can he be right, and since he's not right, he is in no position to say God exists. He's not right. We can say God doesn't exist with the evidence that his existence can't be proven. Remember innocent until proven guilty? It's the same in Science. God is false, until proven true.

Hydrono
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Once again. Disproving he exists is completely irrelevant. There is no need.

While I understand where you are coming from, there is a fundamental issue I have with ignoring certain gods. Yes, we can't disprove god but we can show overwhelming evidence to doubt that god. When someone commits a violent act and claims that it was the word of god, we have to address that issue. I wouldn't say that attempting to disprove god is "irrelevant" In certain situations we have to address the issue of god.

Alliance
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Occam's razor
"When you have two competing theories which make exactly the same predictions, the one that is simpler is the better."

If you don't like that one, how about this one?

Carl Sagan
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof."

So if someone claims that they talk to god, that would be an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary proof.

Occam's razor was origianally "entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem." You're version is the modern one.

What we notice is different between the two is that the modern interpretation has a qualification "same predictions."

Therefore you cannot use that modern precept against god at all, becuase predicting there is a god and that there isn't is not the same prediction at all.
Originally posted by Alfheim
The problem with proving the existence of god is that it depends on your defintion. One of the defintions of what God is that he is infinite and therefore cannot be fully comprehended. If you cannot fully comprehend something it stands to reason you will never find a 100 proof for its existence.

We're not looking for 100% proof, nothing has it. We're looking for shreads of proof.

Religions need to prove that something is impossible without the divine.

None has.Too bad modern religions departed from the ancient ones and invented these totalitarian gods that override natrue instead of being a part of it.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Alliance


We're not looking for 100% proof, nothing has it.

Exactly.

Originally posted by Alliance

Too bad modern religions departed from the ancient ones and invented these totalitarian gods that override natrue instead of being a part of it.

Well I would have thougt if God was infinte God would be part of nature. Therefore nature and God are one.

Alliance
That assumes that god is infinate.

Just another arbitrary assumption.

lord xyz
Originally posted by lord xyz
God is false, until proven true.

Alliance
Not to most of the world.

JacopeX
Originally posted by lord xyz
Not if you give me proof of him being false along with the bible. You must prove it to say something like that.

Alliance
You start by making no assumptions. You need to prove something before you can disprove it.

Logic much?

JacopeX
Originally posted by Alliance
You start by making no assumptions. You need to prove something before you can disprove it.

Logic much? But there is a logic that goes along with that. You cant prove god nor could you disapprove god.

Bardock42
Originally posted by JacopeX
But there is a logic that goes along with that. You cant prove god nor could you disapprove god.
Oh, I disapprove of God quite a bit.

But, though you can't disprove God at the current moment, it doesn't mean that it is likely that such a thing as God exists. It also doesn't mean that the bullshit that is done in the name of such a God has to be accepted. That we can't be sure is one thing, now to base our lives on it and harm others because of it is totally different. We can't disprove your God, but as long as you can't prove them the only answer you deserve when bringing "him" into a discussion is "Piss off!"

Symmetric Chaos
Its nice that the entire ReligionForum has finnaly be condensed to one thread.

lord xyz
Originally posted by JacopeX
Not if you give me proof of him being false along with the bible. You must prove it to say something like that. God is made up for one.

Alliance
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Its nice that the entire ReligionForum has finnaly be condensed to one thread.

laughing out loud

Alfheim
Originally posted by Alliance
That assumes that god is infinate.

Just another arbitrary assumption.

Well if he wasn't infinte he would not be God. I thought one of the defintions of God was that he was all powerful you cannot be all-powerful if you are finite can you?

Bardock42
Originally posted by Alfheim
Well if he wasn't infinte he would not be God. I thought one of the defintions of God was that he was all powerful you cannot be all-powerful if you are finite can you?

You probably can.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Bardock42
You probably can.


....elaborate.

At any rate if you are finite at some point you are going to cease to exist, so i dont see how thats possible. Ceasing to exist is not all-powerful.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Alfheim
....elaborate.

At any rate if you are finite at some point you are going to cease to exist, so i dont see how thats possible. Ceasing to exist is not all-powerful. So you are saying something all-powerful can not cease to exist? How is that all-powerful then?

Jenny_Bug
Originally posted by JacopeX
Or prove that the bible is all fake. It is actually based on faith. I am catholic and I believe that faith is what you have even if your a non believer, or Christian, catholic, Muslim, etc. You cant prove god is real or not. Thats impossible really, as well as proving the existence of god wrong. All I have is faith, and I will always believe in god and my religion, holy spirit, Holy Catholic church, and life everlasting.

So, I think it is pretty pointless to try to prove that God and the bible is true or false. If you don't believe in god, that is fine with me. You just don't have faith with it. You don't believe in a god. Does not mean you should try to ruin it all with so many things. We have our defence of our religion as well, but in my opinion, its all faith. So lets end the whole debate and move on. big grin

Thoughts?
thats was great!
wonderful!
i believe it too big grin

Alfheim
Originally posted by Bardock42
So you are saying something all-powerful can not cease to exist? How is that all-powerful then?

Ok, lets put it this way then the defintion of god I have seen from the major religons is that God has no end. So God is infinite in that sense.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok, lets put it this way then the defintion of god I have seen from the major religons is that God has no end. So God is infinite in that sense.

Thank makes God endless more than infinite.

A god doesn't need to exist forever IMO. Anything with omnipotence can be considered a god.

Any creator is also a god of sorts.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok, lets put it this way then the defintion of god I have seen from the major religons is that God has no end. So God is infinite in that sense.

Okay, though that is obviously in a time sense...which is different from being everything.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Bardock42
Okay, though that is obviously in a time sense...which is different from being everything.

Well let me make it clear he has no end in terms of time and space.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Alfheim
Well if he wasn't infinte he would not be God. I thought one of the defintions of God was that he was all powerful you cannot be all-powerful if you are finite can you?

If that was the case he would be everything. I suppose. Though, well, that is just one definition, and not a common one.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Bardock42
If that was the case he would be everything. I suppose. Though, well, that is just one definition, and not a common one.

Im sure those aspects are in the Bible, Quran and Hinduism. Hell theres even a guy in the Bible who has no beginning and no end.....the sensible Christians know that this because this guy has achieved union with God and hence has become like God.

If you could prove that the universe is infinte you could prove that possibly that is existence of God.

Furthermore when you think about it, infinity does not have to be only in terms of time and space but of possibilites. If you have infinite possibilities anything is possible even things that dont make sense.

Bardock42
Debbiejo says:

I think no one can explain what "god " really is or what it is........

Seraphim XIII
Originally posted by lord xyz
What has dying got to do with it?

The fact that God is made up is evidence enough, he doesn't exist. Unicorns are made up, are you going to say they may exist? Well, yes, it's possible, but the thread starter is saying he has faith it existing. That really annoys me, becaue he says he has faith, and since we can't disprove his faith, he can't be wrong. But, nor can he be right, and since he's not right, he is in no position to say God exists. He's not right. We can say God doesn't exist with the evidence that his existence can't be proven. Remember innocent until proven guilty? It's the same in Science. God is false, until proven true.

Your logic here (And please don't try to deny what you're appealing to) is that because we cannot see it, it doesn't exist.

Don't try to render it irrelevant with semantics, because it will not work. Your inconclusive and the crap you spew is nonsense. Your logic could work both ways.

Look at your argument; It's bloody ridiculous!



If you're going to make a claim, back it up. He doesn't exist? Prove it!

It's that simple. It's not irrelevant to ask for evidence to your claim (Which is a statement someone else mentioned) so prove it!

It's simple: "Absence of proof isn't proof of absence". Bottom line.

That's subjective, by the way. Your kind of logic cannot apply to such an elaborately subjective issue, If you understand what I mean.

Templares
Originally posted by JacopeX
Or prove that the bible is all fake. It is actually based on faith. I am catholic and I believe that faith is what you have even if your a non believer, or Christian, catholic, Muslim, etc. You cant prove god is real or not. Thats impossible really, as well as proving the existence of god wrong. All I have is faith, and I will always believe in god and my religion, holy spirit, Holy Catholic church, and life everlasting.

So, I think it is pretty pointless to try to prove that God and the bible is true or false. If you don't believe in god, that is fine with me. You just don't have faith with it. You don't believe in a god. Does not mean you should try to ruin it all with so many things. We have our defence of our religion as well, but in my opinion, its all faith. So lets end the whole debate and move on. big grin

Thoughts?

Faith alone cannot prove the existence of the Christian god (or any god for that matter). Hell, all it does is put that god on the same level of existence as that of Santa Claus and the Bogeyman.

Alliance
Originally posted by Seraphim XIII
Your logic here (And please don't try to deny what you're appealing to) is that because we cannot see it, it doesn't exist.

Don't try to render it irrelevant with semantics, because it will not work. Your inconclusive and the crap you spew is nonsense. Your logic could work both ways.

Look at your argument; It's bloody ridiculous!



If you're going to make a claim, back it up. He doesn't exist? Prove it!

It's that simple. It's not irrelevant to ask for evidence to your claim (Which is a statement someone else mentioned) so prove it!

It's simple: "Absence of proof isn't proof of absence". Bottom line.

That's subjective, by the way. Your kind of logic cannot apply to such an elaborately subjective issue, If you understand what I mean.

1st: How doe you prove somethign does not exist. Please explain.

2nd: Explain how your assumption of god based on no evidence is justifiable.

JaxN
well basically we cannot prove that god exist or he doesn't exist.

Alliance
Yes, and since that is the case, god does not exist.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Alliance
Yes, and since that is the case, god does not exist.

Thats kinda sh!t logic.



One can use it like this as well:

One can't prove that you are or are not a machine. Therefore you are a machine.

Or more to the point

One cannot prove the existance or nonexistance of god. Therefore it exists.

Alliance
Thats not he point read the posts instead of jumping to conclusions.

How can you logically prove something does not exist? Tell me.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Alliance
How can you logically prove something does not exist? Tell me.

I believe that would require omniscience.

Seraphim XIII
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos

One can't prove that you are or are not a machine. Therefore you are a machine.
-

Bardock42
Originally posted by Alliance
Yes, and since that is the case, god does not exist.

T-that is not the logical conclusion.

Ushgarak
Originally posted by Seraphim XIII
If you're going to make a claim, back it up. He doesn't exist? Prove it!

Statement of a fool.

Once more- it is not the business of science to prove negatives. The burden of proof is upon people to prove he DOES exist. No-one needs to prove he does not.

If you think the two positions are equitable you are simply displaying total ignorance. That is not the way that logic and rationality works. It's also part of a horrific double standard, because you do not apply this standard elsewhere in science, expecting it to give credit to the existence of things just because it cannot directly prove it wrong, even though that just about never happens in science and would involve observing the entirity of the universe, all places, all times. It's beyond unreasonable- and it is also entirely unneccessary. We don't give credence to the idea that a man can fly by flapping his arms simply because it might happen in future and we haven't observed it yet.

Science works on one thing alone- the interpretation of observed/discovered evidence. The fact that absolutely no evidence exists to show that he is real makes it reasonable for people to come to the conclusion that he does not. THAT'S the bottom line.

Bardock42
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Statement of a fool.

Once more- it is not the business of science to prove negatives. The burden of proof is uponn people to prove he DOES exist. No-one needs to prove he does not.

If you think the two positions are equitable you are simply displaying total ignorance. That is not the way that logic and rationality works. It's also part of a horriffic double standard, because you do not applky this standard elsehwere in science, expecting it to give credit to the existence of things just because it cannot directly prove it wrong, even though that just about never happen in science and would involve observing the entirity ofg the universe, all places, all times. It's beyond unreasonable- and it is also entirely unneccessary.

The fact that absolutely no evidence exists to show that he is real makes it reasonable for people to come to the conclusion that he does not. THAT'S the bottom line.

I fully agree with the bottom line there.

Lord Rock
God doesnt exist.
Everyone can write a book about something you cant prove not exists.
I just saw an flying rhino outside my window... You cant prove i dont saw it, its about believing... Doh... God doesnt exist as there is no proofs on his existence and will never be

Hydrono
Originally posted by Lord Rock
God doesnt exist.
Everyone can write a book about something you cant prove not exists.
I just saw an flying rhino outside my window... You cant prove i dont saw it, its about believing... Doh... God doesnt exist as there is no proofs on his existence and will never be

The reason why this debate remains kinda unsolved is that there is no clear definition of "God" The definitions of God can vary widely, despite the use of the same term for them all. You must define what you mean by God before you attack it. If you picture god as a male figure that possesses certain morals etc, then you must acknowledge the fact that that is merely one definition of god. To simply say that god does not exist is kind of illogical. Yes, the probability of a flying rhino existing is far, far from reality. I can't prove that it doesn't exist but the chance of it existing is so farfetched that there is no point in addressing that definition of god.

Lord Rock
god is farfetched, too

Flame On!!
Originally posted by Lord Rock
god is farfetched, too

smile Enjoy

- FO!!

Hydrono
Originally posted by Lord Rock
god is farfetched, too

You obviously didn't read my post...

Alliance
Originally posted by Seraphim XIII
If you're going to make a claim, back it up. He doesn't exist? Prove it!

If I may expand on Ush's comment "The fact that absolutely no evidence exists to show that he is real makes it reasonable for people to come to the conclusion that he does not. THAT'S the bottom line."

We're not just talking about scientific evidence, we're talking about logical evidence. There is no evidence for his existence, so its entirely illogical to assume his existence.

A response of "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" is totally out of line. You are making an assumption without no prior evidence. An assumption that, therefore, is totally unjustifiable. Then asking people to disprove an unjustifiable assumption is ludicrous.

Part of that disproving would be that we would need to logically disprove every other possible idea (as Symmetric noted, that would require omniscience, which we don't have) including the existence of any other gods (Zeus, Allah, Shiva, Huitzilopotchli,...). This makes your argument about disproving god to be even more ludicrous, because we would have to disprove every god and every combination of gods to git to yours, something illogically impossible to do with a divine being that could take any form or tell us anything.

You have made the first claim. Prove it.

BananaKing
Originally posted by JacopeX
Or prove that the bible is all fake. It is actually based on faith. I am catholic and I believe that faith is what you have even if your a non believer, or Christian, catholic, Muslim, etc. You cant prove god is real or not. Thats impossible really, as well as proving the existence of god wrong. All I have is faith, and I will always believe in god and my religion, holy spirit, Holy Catholic church, and life everlasting.

So, I think it is pretty pointless to try to prove that God and the bible is true or false. If you don't believe in god, that is fine with me. You just don't have faith with it. You don't believe in a god. Does not mean you should try to ruin it all with so many things. We have our defence of our religion as well, but in my opinion, its all faith. So lets end the whole debate and move on. big grin

Thoughts?

You can, with one question:

Why does the universe exist when it doesn't need to (without a point! eek! )?

Science is about answers, and according to science there is an answer for everything.

Christian Answer
The universe exists without needing to because someone made it, for a reason that only he knows, but atleast we know he made it because he wanted to!

Atheist Answer:
Whack (means nothing)
or it could be; Because it just does...(that's the answer people would have given for the rain falling back in the medieval days! it means you don't have a damn clue!)
If any atheist has a different answer, please, let me know!

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by BananaKing
You can, with one question:

Why does the universe exist when it doesn't need to (without a point! eek! )?

Science is about answers, and according to science there is an answer for everything.

Christian Answer
The universe exists without needing to because someone made it, for a reason that only he knows, but atleast we know he made it because he wanted to!

Atheist Answer:
Whack (means nothing)
or it could be; Because it just does...(that's the answer people would have given for the rain falling back in the medieval days! it means you don't have a damn clue!)
If any atheist has a different answer, please, let me know!

Your question unecessarily presumes that existent things must also be purposed.

lord xyz
Originally posted by BananaKing
You can, with one question:

Why does the universe exist when it doesn't need to (without a point! eek! )?

Science is about answers, and according to science there is an answer for everything.

Christian Answer
The universe exists without needing to because someone made it, for a reason that only he knows, but atleast we know he made it because he wanted to!

Atheist Answer:
Whack (means nothing)
or it could be; Because it just does...(that's the answer people would have given for the rain falling back in the medieval days! it means you don't have a damn clue!)
If any atheist has a different answer, please, let me know! Interesting answer...hmm

BananaKing
Whatever gods purpose is, is the only problem hereon, which i honestly have no idea!

Imperial_Samura
Originally posted by JacopeX
Or prove that the bible is all fake. It is actually based on faith. I am catholic and I believe that faith is what you have even if your a non believer, or Christian, catholic, Muslim, etc. You cant prove god is real or not. Thats impossible really, as well as proving the existence of god wrong. All I have is faith, and I will always believe in god and my religion, holy spirit, Holy Catholic church, and life everlasting.

So, I think it is pretty pointless to try to prove that God and the bible is true or false. If you don't believe in god, that is fine with me. You just don't have faith with it. You don't believe in a god. Does not mean you should try to ruin it all with so many things. We have our defence of our religion as well, but in my opinion, its all faith. So lets end the whole debate and move on. big grin

Thoughts?

And as such you can not prove God exists either. Usually when I am presented with a situation where two choices exists - say to believe in something or not, then I will go with not if there is no proof of any kind for either.

I just find it very hard to go "Ok, so I will believe despite the lack of evidence since it clearly makes more sense then assuming the lack of evidence is indicative of there being nothing to create evidence, since it doesn't exist."

And by your logic, well, shouldn't you be believing in every other faith as well? I mean - you can't disprove them either, now can you? They are faith based. So either every religion might be true and right, or none might be true or right.

Bardock42
Originally posted by BananaKing
Whatever gods purpose is, is the only problem hereon, which i honestly have no idea!

Also, whether God exists or not.

Imlistening
faith isn't everything

Alliance
Then what justification do you give to gods?

Punkyhermy
honey, YOU are proof of God's existence. wink

manorastroman
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Your question unecessarily presumes that existent things must also be purposed.

yeah, he really needs to read up on his beckett and sartre.

Alliance
Originally posted by Punkyhermy
honey, YOU are proof of God's existence. wink
ummm, thanks smile

Shakyamunison
Originally posted by Alliance
ummm, thanks smile

Why do I get the feeling that a complement was not the main point? confused However, take it when you can. wink

Nellinator
It's a proven pick up line. Telling someone that that they make you believe in a perfect creator works pretty well.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Nellinator
It's a proven pick up line. Telling someone that that they make you believe in a perfect creator works pretty well.

. . . where were the studies conducted?

Tengu
Originally posted by JacopeX
Or prove that the bible is all fake. It is actually based on faith. I am catholic and I believe that faith is what you have even if your a non believer, or Christian, catholic, Muslim, etc. You cant prove god is real or not. Thats impossible really, as well as proving the existence of god wrong. All I have is faith, and I will always believe in god and my religion, holy spirit, Holy Catholic church, and life everlasting.

So, I think it is pretty pointless to try to prove that God and the bible is true or false. If you don't believe in god, that is fine with me. You just don't have faith with it. You don't believe in a god. Does not mean you should try to ruin it all with so many things. We have our defence of our religion as well, but in my opinion, its all faith. So lets end the whole debate and move on. big grin

Thoughts? uhh whats the point?

Lord Urizen
You can't prove the existance or non existance of Zeus either...or Kali....Jacope, what is your point ?

Atlantis001

King Nothing
Can anyone absolutely prove to me with out a doubt, with out a stone unturned, that God does not exist?

Lord Urizen
Originally posted by King Nothing
Can anyone absolutely prove to me with out a doubt, with out a stone unturned, that God does not exist?




Can anyone absolutely prove to me with out a doubt, with out a stone unturned, that God does exist?

Alliance
Originally posted by King Nothing
Can anyone absolutely prove to me with out a doubt, with out a stone unturned, that God does not exist?

Can you even logically prove that, even with unfettered evidence? No.

Something has to exist before you can disprove it and since there is no evidence of God's existance, how can you expect one to prove he is not there.

Athiests aren't making sensational claims. Theists are. THEY need to back it up.

Blaxican
Or not. no expression

ragesRemorse
Originally posted by dirkdirden
For now that holds true but Proof of his of his non-existence will come either by science or by time either way people will either give up faith because there was never a second coming or they will find scientifically proof.


PUtting as much faith in science as religion is one and the same. Views change, personality changes, facts change figures change, life chages, theory's change. Nothing is certain or uncertain aside from the fact that we are.

you just find something to put your faith into to find solace. Whether that faith is "factual figures" that we consider science, or the spiritual unknown. We all have faith in something. Maybe we should ask ourselves why that is, and from there we can find the true answer of where we come from and why we are.

Fuzzy logic already offsets logic, so hypothetically assuming we find this proof that you speak of, what is to say that future scientific speculation on that evidence will lead to the disproof of the found evidence which dissproved the existence of god? it's all relative

Alfheim
Originally posted by ragesRemorse
it's all relative

I wish more people could think like that.

Alliance
Originally posted by ragesRemorse
PUtting as much faith in science as religion is one and the same.

Oh really? Science is based on fact. Based on observation. Regardless of weather our perception of the world changes, its still infinately better than basing perceptions on religon, which presents nothing.

Educated versus arbitrary guess. Which would you choose...becuase I doubt you're going to go jump off a cliff, thinking that gravity will not apply to you.

Relativity applies to somethings...not to everything. You need to know when it is logical to apply relativity and when it is not.

The big EH
i agree

JacopeX

Adam_PoE
Originally posted by JacopeX
But how does logic have to interfere with faith if it is what you really believe?

Yes, faith CAN be wrong but religion such as Christianity is still what most people believe.

An irrational person can believe anything despite evidence to the contrary.




Originally posted by JacopeX
And how can you say that the bible is really fake (New testament)?

Because it is.

Alliance
Originally posted by JacopeX
But how does logic have to interfere with faith if it is what you really believe?

Yes, faith CAN be wrong but religion such as Christianity is still what most people believe. And how can you say that the bible is really fake (New testament)?

Mot people, at one point, did not belive in religion. Most people, at one point, believed that slavery was acceptable and the color of your skin determined not only your intelligence leve, but how much sin you had in your bloodline.

Majority opinon is not justified, simply it is because the majority.

ADarksideJedi
You do'nt need poof to know that God is there.It is like believeing in the easter bunny or santa you can't see them but yet kids think they are real.
The same thing for God just because you can't see him does not mean he is not there!jm

Alliance
Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
but yet kids think they are real.

Just like you kids think God is real.

ADarksideJedi
Do you have any prove that God is not real?Like I said seeing is believeing but in this case you just have to trust your heart!(Yea I know I sound like a hippy)
Deep inside your heart you know he is there you are just not letting your brain catch up to your heart!jm

Alliance
Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Last I heard Science "discovers" not "proves" things. If you want to prove something then you have to be a forensic scientist and prove someone use a knife to kill the victim.

Proof? never 100%. BUt it proves things enough that you wont step off a cliff thinking gravity won't apply to you.

ADarksideJedi
Again guys we have free will meaning we make our own mistakes.God is not abot to stop us he knows anyway we will be judge when we die and get to the pearly gates of st peter so either way we are doom!jm

Alliance
We have free will? Then God is not all knowing.

ADarksideJedi
How is God not knowing if we have freewill?Got to go.Talk to you later!jm

Bardock42
Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
How is God not knowing if we have freewill?Got to go.Talk to you later!jm

If he knows what we will do in advance we can not decide. We have to do what he already knows.

Alliance
thumb up

ADarksideJedi
Not really again it is up to us not him.He would know what we have plan but he is not about to do anything if it is good or a bad thing.That is for us to decide.I really should go out and enjoy the weather too nice to be inside.Hint!jm

Council#13
God knows the outcomes of all the possible choices we make.

lord xyz
Originally posted by ADarksideJedi
How is God not knowing if we have freewill?Got to go.Talk to you later!jm If we have free will then we make the decisions, not him.

lord xyz
Originally posted by Council#13
God knows the outcomes of all the possible choices we make. But he doesn't know which one we'll make.

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