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Pat Tillman was an NFL player for the Arizona Cardinals. He enrolled in the Army when the U.S. went to Iraq and died from friendly fire. Apparently there's more to it than meets the eye: evidence tampering on briefings and so on. Here's a statement from the family of Mr.Tillman:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2813963

Very, very powerful stuff...

Saw that on the news this morning.

Kudos to Mr. Tillman, who passed up an NFL salary to serve. That's the equivalent of getting Ricky Williams to choose football over weed.

Originally posted by botankus


Kudos to Mr. Tillman, who passed up an NFL salary to serve.

Why kudos?

Because he gave up an easy life with millions of dollars to a life in the service where he faced death.

Friendly fire, never is.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Why kudos?
Originally posted by botankus
who passed up an NFL salary to serve.

NFL Safeties, at that time, were bringing in about $2 million per year.

Originally posted by Kinneary
Because he gave up an easy life with millions of dollars to a life in the service where he faced death. Originally posted by botankus
NFL Safeties, at that time, were bringing in about $2 million per year.

No, look, I am sure VVD understand that...the point is...he is an idiot. Why kudos to someone that does something so ridiculously stupid?

I guess the only thing comparable is the head knight leaving the castle and his glory to slay a dragon.

Originally posted by botankus
I guess the only thing more comparable is the head knight leaving the castle and his glory to slay a dragon.
No, he does it for money, fame and that hot princess chick he is going to lay because of it. That is very reasonable in some aspects.

Originally posted by Bardock42
No, he does it for money, fame and that hot princess chick he is going to lay because of it. That is very reasonable in some aspects.

That's ridiculously stupid.

Originally posted by botankus
That's ridiculously stupid.

I would agree, kinda, cause you really only have one life...

You're ridiculously stupid, just like me.

Originally posted by botankus
You're ridiculously stupid, just like me.

You are? Why? Did you pass a great life to be killed invading a foreign country as well?

I passed a great life to post in threads like this every morning.

Originally posted by botankus
I passed a great life to post in threads like this every morning.

You are indeed ridiculously stupid.

I know. I'll meander on back to the Britney thread.

Originally posted by Bardock42
No, he does it for money, fame and that hot princess chick he is going to lay because of it. That is very reasonable in some aspects.

And you just made his point. He could have easily continued to play football for millions, but chose to do what he believed in which could, and did, result in his death; something the majority of us would not ever consider as made more clear from your comments

Originally posted by chithappens
And you just made his point. He could have easily continued to play football for millions, but chose to do what he believed in which could, and did, result in his death; something the majority of us would not ever consider as made more clear from your comments

Y-yes...the majority of us also wouldn't swallow grenades...I wouldn't give kudos to teh dude that does though.

He did something stupid. His decision, why should people have respect for it?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Y-yes...the majority of us also wouldn't swallow grenades...I wouldn't give kudos to teh dude that does though.

He did something stupid. His decision, why should people have respect for it?

I don't agree with the war, but the man went voluntarily because that's what he believed in doing. You are obviously someone who will only do shit under the terms that it is safe and provides personal incentive. I can respect someone who did that. Generally, people don't understand the idea of respect and ideals and the such until later in life. Guess you are not there yet.

Originally posted by chithappens
I don't agree with the war, but the man went voluntarily because that's what he believed in doing. You are obviously someone who will only do shit under the terms that it is safe and provides personal incentive. I can respect someone who did that. Generally, people don't understand the idea of respect and ideals and the such until later in life. Guess you are not there yet.

Haha, sounds likely.

He passed an opportunity many people would love to get and put himself in danger fighting for his country in an aggressive war.

What is there to respect now?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Haha, sounds likely.

He passed an opportunity many people would love to get and put himself in danger fighting for his country in an aggressive war.

What is there to respect now?

Ok Mr.Realist . All I'm saying is he went and did what he thought was right instead on sitting on his hands and saying "Damn, that's ****ed up over there. I think I'll go stick my penis in some video vixen to pass the time away now." afro2

Originally posted by chithappens
Ok Mr.Realist . All I'm saying is he went and did what he thought was right instead on sitting on his hands and saying "Damn, that's ****ed up over there. I think I'll go stick my penis in some video vixen to pass the time away now." afro2

No doubt, he did that.

But is it equally to be respected if he had thought taking the NFL deal was right?

Basically you respect that someone puts themselves in danger? Why? No, really, why?

Originally posted by Bardock42
No doubt, he did that.

But is it equally to be respected if he had thought taking the NFL deal was right?

Basically you respect that someone puts themselves in danger? Why? No, really, why?

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You are missing the point even thought I continue to say it! Please re-read my previous post or have your parents read it and explain it to you. I mean I could see if you disagree with me, but you are totally missing my point.

Originally posted by chithappens
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You are missing the point even thought I continue to say it! Please re-read my previous post or have your parents read it and explain it to you. I mean I could see if you disagree with me, but you are totally missing my point.

Are you some sort of crazy person?

I said that he did that, yes. The thing is we were discussing respect for that action.

Lets review:

Botankus: Kudos to Mr. Tillman, who passed up an NFL salary to serve.
Me: That is not really worthy of respect.
You: He did something he believed in.
Me Yes, but that is not really worthy of respect.

I answered. You didn't accept my answer.

What is worthy of respect?

Originally posted by chithappens
I answered. You didn't accept my answer.

What is worthy of respect?

Well, doing something brave that is not ridiculously stupid maybe? Generally doing smart things?

Originally posted by Bardock42
Well, doing something brave that is not ridiculously stupid maybe? Generally doing smart things?

What's a smart thing to you? Stop talking in generalizations. I can't read minds.

Originally posted by botankus
I passed a great life to post in threads like this every morning.

lol!

Originally posted by chithappens
What's a smart thing to you? Stop talking in generalizations. I can't read minds.

Hmm, I would say probably things that don't get you killed and increase your happiness as well as the happiness of the people around are pretty safe to be considered smart.

I would take a Utilitarian approach here and say the decision that creates the least suffering or produces the greatest happiness is the smartest.

It is of course generally hard to define, but so is everything, but by most standards taking a great salary and staying safe in your home country being able to provide for your family and life a long life is considered smarter than going to fight in an unjust, aggressive war and getting killed by friendly fire.

I can respect your opinion now that you finally explained what you meant. At first you were just being an ass.

Difference of the poles.

Originally posted by chithappens
I can respect your opinion now that you finally explained what you meant. At first you were just being an ass.

Difference of the poles.

I was neither being an ass, nor did I at any point not understand what you said.

Sorry for taking a leave of absence from this thread, for I was busy contributing nothing to society, but at least I wasn't swallowing live grenades, so I guess I'm the (narcissistic) man! Hey, how did that (narcissistic) get in there? I'm subjectively invincible!!!!

Originally posted by botankus
Sorry for taking a leave of absence from this thread, for I was busy contributing nothing to society, but at least I wasn't swallowing live grenades, so I guess I'm the (narcissistic) man! Hey, how did that (narcissistic) get in there? I'm subjectively invincible!!!!

At least you were busy doing something...unlike Pat Tillman...who is dead. And not alive. But dead.

Martin Luther King, Jr. is dead. Jim Bob the cousin f*cker from West Virginia is still alive.

In 80 years both will be dead. Your point?

Originally posted by botankus
Martin Luther King, Jr. is dead. Jim Bob the cousin f*cker from West Virginia is still alive.

In 80 years both will be dead. Your point?

That he is dead. That's about it.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I was neither being an ass, nor did I at any point not understand what you said.
i think they are saying that he could have chose the easy way out and played football, but he felt a responsibility to his country, so he went to the army. this requires a certain amount of bravery.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
i think they are saying that he could have chose the easy way out and played football, but he felt a responsibility to his country, so he went to the army. this requires a certain amount of bravery.

He did what he thought was best.

That it is not what most reasonable people would consider best doesn't make him worthy of respect in my opinion.

He turned down a great chance and died fighting in an unnecessary war. Oh well, his choice, but why should anyone feel respect for that ridiculous decision?

Listen, there's no reason for everyone to get their knickers in a bind over this. The beauty of message boards is the subjective factor. Even the definition of "reasonable" is subjective.

Hell, I could say Ted Bundy was less idiotic and more respectable than Mahatma Gandhi and still put up a good fight because it is my opinion of what is right, and maybe I think being a serial killer is more respectable than being a peacemaker.

Originally posted by Bardock42
He did what he thought was best.

That it is not what most reasonable people would consider best doesn't make him worthy of respect in my opinion.

He turned down a great chance and died fighting in an unnecessary war. Oh well, his choice, but why should anyone feel respect for that ridiculous decision?
necessary or unnecessary war, he gave his life for his country. all the while he could have made millions for playing a game. yes, he knew he was putting himself in harms way when he didnt have to, thats what makes it such a brave decision. he believed in something, took a stand, and paid the ultimate price. yes, i think the war is bullshit, but i have the utmost respect for the soldiers fighting and dying over there.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
necessary or unnecessary war, he gave his life for his country. all the while he could have made millions for playing a game. yes, he knew he was putting himself in harms way when he didnt have to, thats what makes it such a brave decision. he believed in something, took a stand, and paid the ultimate price. yes, i think the war is bullshit, but i have the utmost respect for the soldiers fighting and dying over there.

...why?Originally posted by botankus
Listen, there's no reason for everyone to get their knickers in a bind over this. The beauty of message boards is the subjective factor. Even the definition of "reasonable" is subjective.

Hell, I could say Ted Bundy was less idiotic and more respectable than Mahatma Gandhi and still put up a good fight because it is my opinion of what is right, and maybe I think being a serial killer is more respectable than being a peacemaker. That's the case with everything though.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
i think they are saying that he could have chose the easy way out and played football, but he felt a responsibility to his country, so he went to the army. this requires a certain amount of bravery.

Stupidity and naivity are better words.

Stupidity because...well, he turned down a great life to serve his country and ended up dying for nothing.

Naivity because he thought he had a responsibility to his country to do that.

The man made a dumb choice.

And I LOVE that quote; "People are only willing to do shit if it's at their personal safety.", well...yeah. What? Of course. I don't want to die, I certainly don't want to die in a situation I can avoid and a situation that isn't worth it, JUST so knee-jerkers who don't have the brains to say "Patriotism is bs." will respect me. I don't want their respect.

Hey, while we're on topic, Pat Tillman joined the army and did all that, he gained a lot...oh wait...I just realised we are talking about him and he just gained death.

Being the most respected man in the graveyard isn't something I'd like to achieve at the expense of friends, family and a career most could only dream of.

-AC

I will say one thing. Being a safety for the abysmal Arizona Cardinals ain't a walk in the park. Chasing some guy for 80 yards only to have him do a touchdown dance in the end zone and spike the ball in your face isn't anyone's idea of pride. Having to single-handedly make 20 tackles a game because your LB's can't tackle the RB isn't a piece of cake, either.

F-futuristic rugby.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
F-futuristic rugby.

-AC

Oh, boy. Not the rugby thing again. But fair enough, I can totally see how Europeans could call American Football "futuristic rugby," just like Americans could call European Football a "slightly more intense version of me repeatedly deflecting a paper ball off a baseboard with my foot while I'm waiting for my sister to get out of the bathroom so I can take a sh*t."

Although one involves feet only, and the other doesn't.

American Bastardisation; It's what's cool.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri


And I LOVE that quote; "People are only willing to do shit if it's at their personal safety.", well...yeah. What? Of course. I don't want to die, I certainly don't want to die in a situation I can avoid and a situation that isn't worth it, JUST so knee-jerkers who don't have the brains to say "Patriotism is bs." will respect me.

-AC

Fine, situation: Armed man kidnaps your daughter. Demands $1 mil that you don't have. You know where the man is. If you call police he will find out somehow. Do you go to find and try to save your daughter or just play by his rules? (Yes it's unreasonable and that's the point.)

Yeah, but I think rugby is the better sport because their players don't wear all the protective equipment.

Originally posted by chithappens
Fine, situation: Armed man kidnaps your daughter. Demands $1 mil that you don't have. You know where the man is. If you call police he will find out somehow. Do you go to find and try to save your daughter or just play by his rules? (Yes it's unreasonable and that's the point.)

No, that is totally different. He went there to do something stupid....

Originally posted by chithappens
Fine, situation: Armed man kidnaps your daughter. Demands $1 mil that you don't have. You know where the man is. If you call police he will find out somehow. Do you go to find and try to save your daughter or just play by his rules? (Yes it's unreasonable and that's the point.)

How is that at all relevant? Explain that to me first.

Second, I said I don't want to die in a situation that isn't worth it or die in a situation that will earn me A) Death and B) Respect of people I don't give a shit about.

If I thought it was worth going to save my daughter, I'd do it, because it'd be worth it. Going to fight a war doesn't, hasn't ever, nor will it ever seem worth it.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
How is that at all relevant? Explain that to me first.

Second, I said I don't want to die in a situation that isn't worth it or die in a situation that will earn me A) Death and B) Respect of people I don't give a shit about.

If I thought it was worth going to save my daughter, I'd do it, because it'd be worth it. Going to fight a war doesn't, hasn't ever, nor will it ever seem worth it.

-AC

Just seeing where your "important" stance is. Still, it is funny you said "If I thought was worth going to save my daughter,"

Originally posted by chithappens
Just seeing where your "important" stance is. Still, it is funny you said "If I thought was worth going to save my daughter,"

Why is that funny?

Originally posted by chithappens
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2813963
Society is fiction. So what else is new.

Originally posted by chithappens
Just seeing where your "important" stance is. Still, it is funny you said "If I thought was worth going to save my daughter,"

Yes, because being the gung-ho "I don't care, I'm above the law." nutcase doesn't always help. If I believed the police could help, I'd not intervene.

-AC

So just to be clear: You think if he fights and comes back safely with all limbs and balls intact, it was stupid and not worthy of respect?

Poor Guy...I would never make the decision he made

Originally posted by chithappens
So just to be clear: You think if he fights and comes back safely with all limbs and balls intact, it was stupid and not worthy of respect?

I think it's stupid to fight "for your country" no matter what. It's not an act that earns MY respect, and I PERSONALLY don't feel it should earn anybody's. I'm not everyone, though.

If you feel that's something that deserves respect, I pity you, but it's your choice.

In HIS case, yes, it's even more stupid. The man gave up a dream life to go and fight in a war that shouldn't have happened anyway, and didn't even get killed by the enemy. It's a waste and it's pointless. You can't help where you're born, I see no point fighting for a country. It doesn't care whether you do or not.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Poor Guy...I would never make the decision he made

Why "Poor Guy."? See, this is what annoys me.

He did it himself, it was his choice, why is he getting sympathy? Do you think he went to Iraq expecting it to be Pee Wee's Playhouse?

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Stupidity and naivity are better words.

Stupidity because...well, he turned down a great life to serve his country and ended up dying for nothing.

Naivity because he thought he had a responsibility to his country to do that.

The man made a dumb choice.

And I LOVE that quote; "People are only willing to do shit if it's at their personal safety.", well...yeah. What? Of course. I don't want to die, I certainly don't want to die in a situation I can avoid and a situation that isn't worth it, JUST so knee-jerkers who don't have the brains to say "Patriotism is bs." will respect me. I don't want their respect.

Hey, while we're on topic, Pat Tillman joined the army and did all that, he gained a lot...oh wait...I just realised we are talking about him and he just gained death.

Being the most respected man in the graveyard isn't something I'd like to achieve at the expense of friends, family and a career most could only dream of.

-AC
so if someone believs in something, takes a stand, puts their life on the line fighting for their country, they are dumb? the fact that he could have been a punk and say "let the other guys fight for me" but chose to say "ok, i am gonna put everything on hold and fight for my freedom" speaks volumes for his character.

Originally posted by Bardock42
...why? That's the case with everything though.
are you really asking me why i have respect for soldiers? because they are just following orders. they have a job to do and they are doing it. if you met as many of them as i have, guys that are days away from being shipped over, you might agree.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
are you really asking me why i have respect for soldiers? because they are just following orders. they have a job to do and they are doing it. if you met as many of them as i have, guys that are days away from being shipped over, you might agree.

I met a few.

But that's the point, they follow orders. It is their job. The job they chose. I don't respect them more than I respect the average plumber.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I met a few.

But that's the point, they follow orders. It is their job. The job they chose. I don't respect them more than I respect the average plumber.
i must admit, you have a very ungrateful outlook on life.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
i must admit, you have a very ungrateful outlook on life.

And you are unfair to plumbers.

i despise plumbers.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
i despise plumbers. See.

plumbers are hardly the same as soldiers.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
plumbers are hardly the same as soldiers.

Well, no, they basically are actually.

explain? this should be good.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
explain? this should be good.

They trade their work for money.

I don't see why soldiers are better just because they choose a more dangerous line of work.

never said they were better. just that it takes more guts.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
never said they were better. just that it takes more guts.

Or less brain.

remind me to never trust you at my back in a fight.

LOL! I was just about to make a post like that. ^^

If there was a possibility of a splintered finger, you'd be left all alone to defend yourself.

There is a difference between reasonable fights and signing up to invade a foreign country. To me...there is.

Originally posted by Bardock42
There is a difference between reasonable fights and signing up to invade a foreign country. To me...there is.
so you wouldnt defend the freedom of your family and loved ones if it was required to do so?

As he was running away while RJ was getting his ass kicked, would the bystanders really say, "Wow, there goes a really smart guy?"

Originally posted by botankus
As he was running away while RJ was getting his ass kicked, would the bystanders really say, "Wow, there goes a really smart guy?"
and i'd be screaming "where the hell is botankus when i need him!!!"

This thread shouldn't be about the ridiculous idea to invade a foreign country. I agree with that point. I just think there is a certain amount of valor that goes with enlisting on one's free will. To me, there is. To others, maybe not so. I never did. I'm not really that brave of a guy to begin with nor do I consider myself smarter than those that do.

gotta love the honesty.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
so you wouldnt defend the freedom of your family and loved ones if it was required to do so?

Why did you feel that was a relevant reply?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
so if someone believs in something, takes a stand, puts their life on the line fighting for their country, they are dumb? the fact that he could have been a punk and say "let the other guys fight for me" but chose to say "ok, i am gonna put everything on hold and fight for my freedom" speaks volumes for his character.

He wasn't fighting for his freedom was he? He was fighting an unjust war against a country who never really threatened anything, if we're being realistic. Stop knee-jerking.

Punk? Forget that bs. I fight for myself if I need to, if it's to protect myself or my loved ones from imminent and direct danger, which wars hardly ever are.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
never said they were better. just that it takes more guts.

I.e: You don't see why they're better because they choose a more dangerous line of work either. You just say it takes "guts", which means nothing. Stupidity, more like it.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I fight for myself if I need to, if it's to protect myself or my loved ones from imminent and direct danger, which wars hardly ever are.

Soldiers are a necessary part of society, call them stupid all you want for enlisting in a potentially dangerous field of work. But when it comes down to it, if another country/regime/faction were to attack your homeland and/or just threaten you and your way of life; you'd be crying like little pansies for your soldiers/military to do something about it.

Originally posted by Victor Von Doom
Why did you feel that was a relevant reply?
read the posts again.

Originally posted by Robtard
Soldiers are a necessary part of society, call them stupid all you want for enlisting in a potentially dangerous field of work. But when it comes down to it, if another country/regime/faction were to attack your homeland and/or just threaten you and your way of life; you'd be crying like little pansies for your soldiers/military to do something about it.
I have to call bullshit.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
He wasn't fighting for his freedom was he? He was fighting an unjust war against a country who never really threatened anything, if we're being realistic. Stop knee-jerking.

Punk? Forget that bs. I fight for myself if I need to, if it's to protect myself or my loved ones from imminent and direct danger, which wars hardly ever are.



I.e: You don't see why they're better because they choose a more dangerous line of work either. You just say it takes "guts", which means nothing. Stupidity, more like it.

-AC
so.....terrorists are on the rampage throughout the world. they hijack planes and crash them into the world trade center. is the USA supposed to just sit back and say "well, it's an unjust war we cannot engage in?".....no. it's a necessity that we are over there now. before the 9/11 attacks, i might have agreed with you. i might have said "why are we over there?"
but the 9/11 attacks forced our hand. we have no choice but to be over there now. it's a losing battle, i will admit, but at least we are'nt just letting terrorists get away with it. the soldiers have no choice but to follow orders, and they know that they are in harms way. Tillman knew that he was placing himself in harms way, and he passed on a life of luxury to fulfill his duty to his country.
i bet that if, for some strange reason, the UK was a major player in a war, and they held a draft, you'd be a draft dodger.

Originally posted by Robtard
Soldiers are a necessary part of society, call them stupid all you want for enlisting in a potentially dangerous field of work. But when it comes down to it, if another country/regime/faction were to attack your homeland and/or just threaten you and your way of life; you'd be crying like little pansies for your soldiers/military to do something about it.

How do you manage to be more and more irrelevant? Who said they weren't necessary? I said I think it's stupid to be one, so yes, I will call them stupid all I want.

They're not necessarily stupid for joining something dangerous, I just feel that removes all rights of sympathy in the event of death. What makes them stupid is the false obligation they feel they have for their country, and then wanting to fight for it no matter what. These soldiers getting upset because they dislike Bush's "war", well tough shit, they signed up for that.

However, let's discuss necessity shall we? My way of life has been the same as it always has since 1985. No Iraq, no Afghanistan, no Iran has ever made me not do something, or do something differently. So maybe they're not as necessary for actual protection as you think they are, just tools to wage unjust wars and conflicts in an attempt to maintain our "freedom" from people who could never realistically threaten it anyway.

"Be careful!", "Why?", "Because stuff is happening in a nation many thousands of miles away from us.".

So Bin Laden has the capacity to, once in a blue moon, kill a lot of people. That is a horrific possibility, but have you ever felt like your lifestyle was at risk because of him, in the same way that people feared say...Hitler? A man who could actually invade and conquer? A war where an army WAS necessary? I seriously doubt that. Yet of course, people knee-jerk to the "SUPPORT THE TROOPS!" and never think.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
so.....terrorists are on the rampage throughout the world.

Some would argue the biggest terrorist of all is the one who "runs" your country, so be careful who you point that finger at.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
they hijack planes and crash them into the world trade center.

You're saying that in the present tense, why? It happened once, it doesn't keep happening does it? Think first, post second. They committed an atrocious act, Bush bombed a more or less innocent country (In this case.) off the face of the Earth. How necessary were your soldiers then?

You think that because people in NYC were horrifically attacked...once...in an event that took more than a decade of planning, that you are at constant threat from a man who lives in a cave? As if he's going to invade? Get real.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
is the USA supposed to just sit back and say "well, it's an unjust war we cannot engage in?".....no. it's a necessity that we are over there now. before the 9/11 attacks, i might have agreed with you. i might have said "why are we over there?"

You do realise he went after Iraq, a country who had a grand total of 0% involvement in the September 11th attacks, right? The States shouldn't be over there, nobody should.

Your president lied to get troops over there, under the guise of "They're threatening our freedom!", and because of people like you who convince them it's good to fight, but do nothing yourself, there are tremendous casualties for no reason. Many husbandless wives, fatherless kids etc. To say that in the face of the hard facts that prove this "war" was unjust, a sham and a waste of money and lives, is just idiocy.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
but the 9/11 attacks forced our hand. we have no choice but to be over there now. it's a losing battle, i will admit, but at least we are'nt just letting terrorists get away with it. the soldiers have no choice but to follow orders, and they know that they are in harms way. Tillman knew that he was placing himself in harms way, and he passed on a life of luxury to fulfill his duty to his country.

OUR hand? What do you do Mr. Patriot? I mean, besides sit at your computer in Texas and cheer, what do you do? If you aren't out there fighting, don't say "we". You have no part in any of this, so don't act as if you are out there fighting. That's more disrespectful to the people YOU claim to respect than I could ever be. If there were less arm chair "YEAH! FIGHT FOR HONOUR (While I watch on Fox.)." people, there might be less families eternally broken up.

"His duty"? You have no duty to your country, you take obligation to it of your own free will. Your country does not ask things of you, your government do. Your government get you into fights that they wouldn't dare fight themselves, most of them over bs things anyway. Your country doesn't. Tillman deserves no sympathy because he knew what he was getting.

Terrorism will always exist, so trying to definitely end it is futile.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
i bet that if, for some strange reason, the UK was a major player in a war, and they held a draft, you'd be a draft dodger.

Yes, and? Was that meant as some kind of attempted appeal to my intellectual ego or something? "ME?! A DRAFT DODGER?! WHY I'LL SHOW THAT INTERNET POSTER HOW WRONG HE IS!".

Of course I would. You think I'd leave my friends, family and loved ones to fight a war that isn't even necessary? Or...a war in general? No. There are many people who society has conditioned into stupidly wanting to do that, so let them eat cake.

-AC

I think half of you are arguing one thing and half another. It seems half are debating the validity of a soldier to serve based on the government's decision to invade a foreign country, while the other half are debating the validity of a soldier in terms of being just that - a soldier.

Or, more accurately, some are debating from the stance of "How dare you question soldiers?", and others are questioning soldiers, providing explanation to a knee-jerk reaction.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
How do you manage to be more and more irrelevant? Who said they weren't necessary? I said I think it's stupid to be one, so yes, I will call them stupid all I want.

They're not necessarily stupid for joining something dangerous, I just feel that removes all rights of sympathy in the event of death. What makes them stupid is the false obligation they feel they have for their country, and then wanting to fight for it no matter what. These soldiers getting upset because they dislike Bush's "war", well tough shit, they signed up for that.

However, let's discuss necessity shall we? My way of life has been the same as it always has since 1985. No Iraq, no Afghanistan, no Iran has ever made me not do something, or do something differently. So maybe they're not as necessary for actual protection as you think they are, just tools to wage unjust wars and conflicts in an attempt to maintain our "freedom" from people who could never realistically threaten it anyway.

"Be careful!", "Why?", "Because stuff is happening in a nation many thousands of miles away from us.".

So Bin Laden has the capacity to, once in a blue moon, kill a lot of people. That is a horrific possibility, but have you ever felt like your lifestyle was at risk because of him, in the same way that people feared say...Hitler? A man who could actually invade and conquer? A war where an army WAS necessary? I seriously doubt that. Yet of course, people knee-jerk to the "SUPPORT THE TROOPS!" and never think.



Some would argue the biggest terrorist of all is the one who "runs" your country, so be careful who you point that finger at.



You're saying that in the present tense, why? It happened once, it doesn't keep happening does it? Think first, post second. They committed an atrocious act, Bush bombed a more or less innocent country (In this case.) off the face of the Earth. How necessary were your soldiers then?

You think that because people in NYC were horrifically attacked...once...in an event that took more than a decade of planning, that you are at constant threat from a man who lives in a cave? As if he's going to invade? Get real.



You do realise he went after Iraq, a country who had a grand total of 0% involvement in the September 11th attacks, right? The States shouldn't be over there, nobody should.

Your president lied to get troops over there, under the guise of "They're threatening our freedom!", and because of people like you who convince them it's good to fight, but do nothing yourself, there are tremendous casualties for no reason. Many husbandless wives, fatherless kids etc. To say that in the face of the hard facts that prove this "war" was unjust, a sham and a waste of money and lives, is just idiocy.



OUR hand? What do you do Mr. Patriot? I mean, besides sit at your computer in Texas and cheer, what do you do? If you aren't out there fighting, don't say "we". You have no part in any of this, so don't act as if you are out there fighting. That's more disrespectful to the people YOU claim to respect than I could ever be. If there were less arm chair "YEAH! FIGHT FOR HONOUR (While I watch on Fox.)." people, there might be less families eternally broken up.

"His duty"? You have no duty to your country, you take obligation to it of your own free will. Your country does not ask things of you, your government do. Your government get you into fights that they wouldn't dare fight themselves, most of them over bs things anyway. Your country doesn't. Tillman deserves no sympathy because he knew what he was getting.

Terrorism will always exist, so trying to definitely end it is futile.



Yes, and? Was that meant as some kind of attempted appeal to my intellectual ego or something? "ME?! A DRAFT DODGER?! WHY I'LL SHOW THAT INTERNET POSTER HOW WRONG HE IS!".

Of course I would. You think I'd leave my friends, family and loved ones to fight a war that isn't even necessary? Or...a war in general? No. There are many people who society has conditioned into stupidly wanting to do that, so let them eat cake.

-AC
yes, the USA has bombed targets and there has been some collateral damage. thats because the terrorists are chicken shit and decide to hide amongst civilians. in the 9/11 attacks, there wasnt a soldier in sight. it was an attack on innocent civilians.

nah, Osama is not gonna invade. i am sure he will target civilians left and right, though. hell, even the plane that crashed into the pentagon targeted a strategic location. the twin towers? full of people working 9 to 5. they did nothing to deserve their fate.

yes, we went after Iraq. ever hear of a guy named saddam hussein? you think he was'nt in league with osama? where do you think osama is from? where do you think he is hiding?

i wouldnt go as far as to say that they are threatening our freedom, but the terrorists are threatening innocent civilians. yes, we sometimes have collateral innocent casualties in iraq, but we dont target them intently.

yes, you are right, i am not fighting. i am not a soldier. but that doesnt mean i cant support them and give them the respect they deserve. and, for some reason, if the government wanted to draft me, i would join up. i would do my duty and fight for my country.

yes, i am at a computer supporting the troops, or at least expressing my support. you, on the other hand, are doing the same, its just that your opinion differs. swing that judgemental pendelum back at yourself once in a while.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
yes, the USA has bombed targets and there has been some collateral damage. thats because the terrorists are chicken shit and decide to hide amongst civilians. in the 9/11 attacks, there wasnt a soldier in sight. it was an attack on innocent civilians.

There's the American spirit that the whole world has come to love. "Grr! The terrorists are chicken shit!". Yes, real mature, RJ. Then again, I suppose that's how they get you, but appealing to that stupid American pride that causes most of your nation to still believe they are the greatest on Earth, whilst living in Americaworld and not paying attention to anyone else unless they want something or want to bomb something.

I'm not condoning 9/11, I think it was horrid. It was the only event covered by the news that actually made me shed a tear, and I say that genuinely without any bs.

What also made me feel like shit was seeing pictures on an Iraqi child in a million pieces as a result of US cruise missiles. They shouldn't have even been attacking Iraq. Bin Laden wanted to kill American innocents, he killed (Mostly) American innocents. He didn't fly planes into our buildings to get at America, did he? No. American bombed Iraq to get at Afghanistan. Although, it wasn't actually for that reason, it was because Daddy Bush had unfinished business.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
nah, Osama is not gonna invade. i am sure he will target civilians left and right, though. hell, even the plane that crashed into the pentagon targeted a strategic location. the twin towers? full of people working 9 to 5. they did nothing to deserve their fate.

Yes, but you're acting like this happens every day. How often has it happened since then? How often had it happened before? Either way, your government attacked the wrong country. The casualties of 9/11 now pale in comparison to that of the Iraq war, civilians too, I believe, or is it soldiers? One of the two.

Those people did nothing to deserve their fate, except the soldiers, who signed up to serve Bush (Not America, Bush.) no matter WHAT, and then had the nerve to moan. Think before you post. They're not an imminent threat, so to act like the U.S Army is necessary for your "protection" in that sense is ridiculous.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
yes, we went after Iraq. ever hear of a guy named saddam hussein? you think he was'nt in league with osama? where do you think osama is from? where do you think he is hiding?

Yeah, the guy that the Americans were friends with when they needed him, I remember him. What I fail to remember is any reason for the attack on Iraq in retaliation to what Afghanistan did. There wasn't one.

You think he was in league, YOU think he was hiding him, YOU think this, you think that. So what? What proof do you have besides the news and Bush? None of that has been proven, a lot of it has been debunked. Still, at least there was the weapons of mass destruction, right? Oh wait, there wasn't any of them either.

Why continue to defend a massacre, an unneccesary massacre, when the man responsible for it, your president, admitted that he got it wrong about his "reasons" for going in?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
i wouldnt go as far as to say that they are threatening our freedom, but the terrorists are threatening innocent civilians. yes, we sometimes have collateral innocent casualties in iraq, but we dont target them intently.

WE don't? Listen, until you're out there being a "good" soldier and only killing "bad" people, don't stand there and tell me what "you" are and are not doing. You're doing shit all, RJ. You're sitting at your computer in Texas, debating with me.

Second, don't act as if Americans don't do that kind of thing, surely you're not that silly.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
yes, you are right, i am not fighting. i am not a soldier. but that doesnt mean i cant support them and give them the respect they deserve. and, for some reason, if the government wanted to draft me, i would join up. i would do my duty and fight for my country.

Until that day, stop referring to them as "We". You're not them, you're not fighting, and suuure, they deserve respect for killing and dying in a war that isn't necessary (Because it factually wasn't. Getting rid of Saddam was an attempt at using the saving grace, but even that has become overwhelmed by the negatives.).

Second, I pity you. You have no duty, you've convinced yourself you have. Your government doesn't care about you, your country doesn't, PEOPLE in it that love you and care for you? THEY care, and you'd leave them, possibly for good, for people who don't? Sad.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
yes, i am at a computer supporting the troops, or at least expressing my support. you, on the other hand, are doing the same, its just that your opinion differs. swing that judgemental pendelum back at yourself once in a while.

Yes, but I'm not speaking as if I'm part of something I'm not. I'm not saying "We" in reference to an army I'm not a part of. You are.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
There's the American spirit that the whole world has come to love. "Grr! The terrorists are chicken shit!". Yes, real mature, RJ. Then again, I suppose that's how they get you, but appealing to that stupid American pride that causes most of your nation to still believe they are the greatest on Earth, whilst living in Americaworld and not paying attention to anyone else unless they want something or want to bomb something.

I'm not condoning 9/11, I think it was horrid. It was the only event covered by the news that actually made me shed a tear, and I say that genuinely without any bs.

What also made me feel like shit was seeing pictures on an Iraqi child in a million pieces as a result of US cruise missiles. They shouldn't have even been attacking Iraq. Bin Laden wanted to kill American innocents, he killed (Mostly) American innocents. He didn't fly planes into our buildings to get at America, did he? No. American bombed Iraq to get at Afghanistan. Although, it wasn't actually for that reason, it was because Daddy Bush had unfinished business.



Yes, but you're acting like this happens every day. How often has it happened since then? How often had it happened before? Either way, your government attacked the wrong country. The casualties of 9/11 now pale in comparison to that of the Iraq war, civilians too, I believe, or is it soldiers? One of the two.

Those people did nothing to deserve their fate, except the soldiers, who signed up to serve Bush (Not America, Bush.) no matter WHAT, and then had the nerve to moan. Think before you post. They're not an imminent threat, so to act like the U.S Army is necessary for your "protection" in that sense is ridiculous.



Yeah, the guy that the Americans were friends with when they needed him, I remember him. What I fail to remember is any reason for the attack on Iraq in retaliation to what Afghanistan did. There wasn't one.

You think he was in league, YOU think he was hiding him, YOU think this, you think that. So what? What proof do you have besides the news and Bush? None of that has been proven, a lot of it has been debunked. Still, at least there was the weapons of mass destruction, right? Oh wait, there wasn't any of them either.

Why continue to defend a massacre, an unneccesary massacre, when the man responsible for it, your president, admitted that he got it wrong about his "reasons" for going in?



WE don't? Listen, until you're out there being a "good" soldier and only killing "bad" people, don't stand there and tell me what "you" are and are not doing. You're doing shit all, RJ. You're sitting at your computer in Texas, debating with me.

Second, don't act as if Americans don't do that kind of thing, surely you're not that silly.



Until that day, stop referring to them as "We". You're not them, you're not fighting, and suuure, they deserve respect for killing and dying in a war that isn't necessary (Because it factually wasn't. Getting rid of Saddam was an attempt at using the saving grace, but even that has become overwhelmed by the negatives.).

Second, I pity you. You have no duty, you've convinced yourself you have. Your government doesn't care about you, your country doesn't, PEOPLE in it that love you and care for you? THEY care, and you'd leave them, possibly for good, for people who don't? Sad.



Yes, but I'm not speaking as if I'm part of something I'm not. I'm not saying "We" in reference to an army I'm not a part of. You are.

-AC
i missed that last part of your previous post. you would really dodge the draft? so you want to scream "i want ny freedom" out of one corner of your mouth, and out of the other scream "but i am not willing to fight for it."?.....thats pretty spineless.

i know I have no duty, but the SOLDIERS have duty. when did i ever say i have duty? all i said is that i support the troops. stop putting words in my mouth.

i knew you'd eventually use the "american pride" crap on me. pretty pathetic angle, i must say. do i love my country? no. its just a place i live. do i support the troops? yes, i do. they are out there day in and day out risking their lives so that others might avoid the fate of 9/11. do i enjoy the freedom i have by living here? yes. so, if called upon, i would fight the good fight and defend me and mine. for anyone to shirk that obligation shows what a yellow bellied sapsucker they are. yes, i just called all draft dodgers cowards.

all i said is that they were in league, not that they were swapping spit in the shower. was saddam hiding him? dunno. probably not, because he was too busy hiding himself. osama doesnt need any help hiding. he is a trained killer who could probably take you and me out in less than 30 seconds. he grew up over there, so he knows the terrain like the back of his hand. so of course saddam wasnt hiding him.

why do you keep referring to my location and what i am doing? would it make a difference if i was in zimbabwe, living in a hut? what the hell are you trying to accomplish by this?

i need not your pity. i know in my heart that i would not dodge the draft as you said you would earlier. sure, i would miss FJ and my family, but, upon being drafted, i would then HAVE A DUTY. and, being an appreciative person, i cannot imagine how anyone can honestly say they would dodge the draft and still call himself a man. so i guess i should pity you.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
i missed that last part of your previous post. you would really dodge the draft? so you want to scream "i want ny freedom" out of one corner of your mouth, and out of the other scream "but i am not willing to fight for it."?.....thats pretty spineless.

My freedom hasn't been under threat as long as I have ever been alive. I've seen no major war that has been an honest and genuine fight for any kind of freedom. It's not something I think about.

I care more about my family and friends than "freedom". Kid Rock was actually right, believe it or not. Freedom is overrated, my lifestyle does not require masses of freedom, nothing would vastly change, and in this day and age, invasion is just not on the cards. So my freedom, nor anyone's really, isn't under threat.

It's not spineless, because I'm not doing that. Not wanting to die isn't spineless, it's called being logical.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
i know I have no duty, but the SOLDIERS have duty. when did i ever say i have duty? all i said is that i support the troops. stop putting words in my mouth.

The soldiers have duty because they sign up to fight unquestionably for whatever reason the man in charge wants to fight for. It doesn't matter whether it's just or unjust, you sign up to fight. So I have even LESS sympathy for those who moan about not liking Bush's war.

You said you'd do "your" duty.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
i knew you'd eventually use the "american pride" crap on me. pretty pathetic angle, i must say. do i love my country? no. its just a place i live. do i support the troops? yes, i do. they are out there day in and day out risking their lives so that others might avoid the fate of 9/11. do i enjoy the freedom i have by living here? yes. so, if called upon, i would fight the good fight and defend me and mine. for anyone to shirk that obligation shows what a yellow bellied sapsucker they are. yes, i just called all draft dodgers cowards.

It's exactly what it is, though. If not American pride, then baseless pride, which is arguably worse.

Supporting them and wanting them to come home safely are two different things. The latter I can understand, the former I cannot. You are saying you support them unquestionably JUST because they choose to fight and possibly die for causes that may not even be right. That doesn't deserve respect, at all.

Stop referring to 9/11, it's not relevant. They're fighting Iraq, or were. That's like America going to war with Holland in WWII just because it's close to Germany. It's illogical and it created many more problems than it solved.

The freedom you have living there is not being threatened, why can't you see that? Afghanistan attacking the US didn't decrease your freedom, did it? You're not less able to go about your everyday life now because they flew two planes into the Twin Towers ONCE, are you? No, wake up.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
all i said is that they were in league, not that they were swapping spit in the shower. was saddam hiding him? dunno. probably not, because he was too busy hiding himself. osama doesnt need any help hiding. he is a trained killer who could probably take you and me out in less than 30 seconds. he grew up over there, so he knows the terrain like the back of his hand. so of course saddam wasnt hiding him.

Then why even bring it up?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
why do you keep referring to my location and what i am doing? would it make a difference if i was in zimbabwe, living in a hut? what the hell are you trying to accomplish by this?

Nothing negative, just stating the truth. Making you realise that you are exactly that. If you lived in a hut in Zimbabwe, or a cottage in the English countryside, I'd say the same. The point is, you are a random human civilian trying to give yourself a sense of involvement by saying "we". It's stupid.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
i need not your pity. i know in my heart that i would not dodge the draft as you said you would earlier. sure, i would miss FJ and my family, but, upon being drafted, i would then HAVE A DUTY. and, being an appreciative person, i cannot imagine how anyone can honestly say they would dodge the draft and still call himself a man. so i guess i should pity you.

Hence why the draft dodge exists, so you can avoid a duty being thrust upon you that you neither asked for, nor wanted. There are idiots out there who genuinely want to sign up and fight, for whatever reason, let them do it. The good thing about your kind is that there's more blind, patriotic morons than there are people like me. You help make my choice to keep out of fighting easier.

I love that pathetic argument too. Insinuating that I am not a man just because I don't want to go to war. I guess you've just not evolved out of the neanderthalian "ME MAN! ME SHOOT GUN! ME FIGHT!" mindset.

A real man knows where his TRUE duty should be. By the side of his loved ones and cherished people, not fighting and dying for some man in a suit to whom your life means nothing, but hell, you go fight if you're ever called up. I'll be here enjoying the same freedom I always have.

-AC

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
read the posts again.

OK.

Originally posted by Bardock42
There is a difference between reasonable fights and signing up to invade a foreign country. To me...there is.

Seems fair.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
so you wouldnt defend the freedom of your family and loved ones if it was required to do so?

Read them again- maybe you'd now like to read them...for the first time?

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
My freedom hasn't been under threat as long as I have ever been alive. I've seen no major war that has been an honest and genuine fight for any kind of freedom. It's not something I think about.
so it's just something you take for granted. i see.

so let's just sit back and let innocent blood be spilled? nice attitude.

i am sure all soldiers would rather not die. it's not about not wanting to die. it's about being part of a society, about standing up for what you believe in. or would we be better off just sitting on our hands waiting for the next attack? it's called being pro-active.


have you ever met a soldier? one who was wounded in combat, or traumatized by the fighting?

i said IF i were drafted, i would not run, that i would do my duty. IF I WERE DRAFTED.


they deserve no respect just because you don't agree with the war they are fighting? so, if you and I were friends, and we were out drinking, and i got jumped by a gang of guys, would you jump in and help me? you seem like the type to cower in the shadows as my ass is handed to me.

9/11 is TOTALLY relevant. where do you think most of the terrorists and their training facilities are?

again, let's just sit on our hands as terror takes over.



it's the universal we. as in "our"country. as in "we" are U.S. citizens.



the draft dodge does not "exist". all that exists are cowards that would rather run than be a man and do his duty. blind and pathetic morons? riiiiight. that's what one would expect a coward to say.

if you say so. excuse me while i knock FJ over the head and drag her into a cave.

good for you. just sit back and let others fight for you.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
so it's just something you take for granted. i see.

I said it's something that has never been under threat. Don't add things to my posts.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
so let's just sit back and let innocent blood be spilled? nice attitude.

In World War II, people got involved because they were all going to have their freedom genuinely threatened, as Germany were invading and conquering countries and armies, people like Joseph Mengele committing some of the most atrocious human acts while this was going on. I still wouldn't have fought, because it's not something I wish to do, and there are people who want to do it instead. My point is, that war was for just reason.

This one isn't.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
i am sure all soldiers would rather not die. it's not about not wanting to die. it's about being part of a society, about standing up for what you believe in. or would we be better off just sitting on our hands waiting for the next attack? it's called being pro-active.

Standing up for what you believe in, huh? If you believe in what Bush is preaching then I sincerely hope you get off to war now, because you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

If you believe this is what's right for the world, then I recommend you sign up and put your money where your mouth is.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
have you ever met a soldier? one who was wounded in combat, or traumatized by the fighting?

My grandfather on my father's side was a WWII gunner, my grandfather on my mother's side worked on ships during WWI.

A good friend of my father's has a son who was a marine, I've met him many times.

How is this relevant? Are you going to ask me if I think they're stupid?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
i said IF i were drafted, i would not run, that i would do my duty. IF I WERE DRAFTED.

So why wouldn't you do it voluntarily? Why wait 'til you're forced? If it's such a respectable act, if it's worth so much, why do you need to be forced into it?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
they deserve no respect just because you don't agree with the war they are fighting? so, if you and I were friends, and we were out drinking, and i got jumped by a gang of guys, would you jump in and help me? you seem like the type to cower in the shadows as my ass is handed to me.

How in the red hell is that relevant to ANYTHING? You're asking me if I'd defend a friend who got jumped for absolutely no reason? Yes, because it's someone I care about.

Do you read posts?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
9/11 is TOTALLY relevant. where do you think most of the terrorists and their training facilities are?

I don't know, I don't go out for beers with the guys, I'd imagine it's not the kind of info they share.

The FACT is, Iraq didn't commit 9/11, Bush went to war with Iraq for false reasons that the public sucked up because Bush convinced the idiots that their freedom was at stake.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
again, let's just sit on our hands as terror takes over.

Answer my question: Has your real life been restricted because of 9/11 or any event thereafter? Are you less able now to live your life comfortably and happily than you were pre-9/11?

The fact is, your freedom was never at stake, nor is it now. The idea of winning a war on terror is dumb, terrorism will always exist.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
it's the universal we. as in "our"country. as in "we" are U.S. citizens.

You were referring to the army.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
the draft dodge does not "exist". all that exists are cowards that would rather run than be a man and do his duty. blind and pathetic morons? riiiiight. that's what one would expect a coward to say.

Why are you suggesting that going to war is a manly thing?

You're an idiot. I'm less of a man for not wanting to fight a war and possibly die, for a cause that in all probability, I disagree with? Fine, I'll take that label. It's not true, but if that's what you're going to label me, I'll take it. I don't want to die for something stupid, what a fool I must be, eh? If it takes a war to confirm your manhood, I suggest checking if you have any manhood to begin with.

You're not fighting for your country, you're fighting for your government.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
if you say so. excuse me while i knock FJ over the head and drag her into a cave.

A real man's girlfriend usually obliges him for sex without any kind of blunt force trauma. I guess that's something that's part of the "real man" club, though.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
good for you. just sit back and let others fight for you.

I will fight for me and my loved ones when the situation calls for it. Seeing as there are people out there dumb enough to believe that by going to war they are protecting my freedom, sure, knock yourself out.

If my friend is jumped, I'll help. If my girl is jumped, I'll help. If Tony Blair gets into a fight with another country cos he's an idiot, he won't sway my hand by trying to convince me my freedom is at stake, it's not.

"They threaten the way we live!". They don't.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I said it's something that has never been under threat. Don't add things to my posts.talk about hypocrite alert.



so if you were alive back then, and your country is being bombed, you wouldnt rise up and fight?



as i said, if i were eligible for selective service, and i were to be called upon, i would go.


and you have no respect for these people?


ok. but, if you think i deserved it, if i did something that you warned me not to do, something you disagreed with, would you still help me?


no, but what about the lives of the people who were in the twin towers? what if you and i were in the twin towers when the planes hit?

and i agree with you that terrorism will always exist. sad but
true, good call on that.




an idiot? ok, whatever. better an idiot than a fence sitter who is afraid to take a stand. and i have no need to check my manhood. i know what i would do. you have stated what you would do.



OMFG.....i was joking. get a clue, man.



for your girl, i believe you would, i really do. if it were your friend? kinda hard to say what one would do.

you have made it quite clear your feelings on this issue. i get it. no need to keep talking in circles and repeating yourself.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
talk about hypocrite alert.

Technically that doesn't apply. A+ for effort.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
so if you were alive back then, and your country is being bombed, you wouldnt rise up and fight?

No. I'd make moves to protect the people closest to me, not abandon them to go and die. Save the "coward" and "You're not a man!" retorts, they roll off my back like water off a duck's back.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
as i said, if i were eligible for selective service, and i were to be called upon, i would go.

Yeah, but that's not standing up for what you believe in. That's having a "duty" forced on you that you didn't ask for or want.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
and you have no respect for these people?

I respect my grandfather for being an academically brilliant man, for being a good person, not for going to war, because I think that was a stupid decision. Unless, of course, he was forced to go, then it's hardly his fault. He says that it's not something he looks back on with pride. War and being a soldier, according to him, is much more glossy if you aren't one. He doesn't sigh dreamily whilst looking back on what he did, and that war had a reason.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
ok. but, if you think i deserved it, if i did something that you warned me not to do, something you disagreed with, would you still help me?

No. If you went out and f*cked some guy's girlfriend and he tried beating your ass, you're reaping what you sow. Of course if he attempted to kill you, I'd step in because at that point the retribution doesn't fit the crime. Anything else and you're on your own. If I say "Hey, don't do that, it's wrong and you'll end up suffering.", and you ignored me anyway, then I'd ignore you when it blew up in your face.

And if you think you're gonna dodge the question that was asked and then blatantly cut out of your reply, you won't. I'll ask you again and please answer it this time. It's shameful that you specifically cut it out of your reply as it is, and yet you speak to me of being a man and possessing cowardice. Be a man and answer the question, RJ. Stand up for what you believe in and answer the question. If you can't walk it, don't talk it. Here:

Why wouldn't you do it voluntarily? Why wait 'til you're forced? If it's such a respectable act, if it's worth so much, why do you need to be forced into it?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
no, but what about the lives of the people who were in the twin towers? what if you and i were in the twin towers when the planes hit?

We wouldn't know about it would we? We'd be dead. What is your point here?

It's extremely tragic that they died in the circumstances they did, on a horrific scale, but what's your point? Would I fight for them? No. I don't even owe it to them to mourn, but I was upset because it was genuinely tragic. Those are people that I felt did deserve a bit of thought, I wouldn't go and fight in a war for them, they're nobodies to me.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
and i agree with you that terrorism will always exist. sad but
true, good call on that.

Splendid.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
an idiot? ok, whatever. better an idiot than a fence sitter who is afraid to take a stand. and i have no need to check my manhood. i know what i would do. you have stated what you would do.

You haven't answered my question.

I'm anything BUT afraid to stand up and act on what I believe. I don't believe in going to war, it's not one of my choices and it never will be, so I'll never do it.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
OMFG.....i was joking. get a clue, man.

Oh yes, because, I did actually believe you were going to hit her on the head and drag her into a cave. Come on...

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
for your girl, i believe you would, i really do. if it were your friend? kinda hard to say what one would do.

That's another thing; I don't defend people based on who they are, I defend them based on either what they've done or not done.

Friend, girlfriend or foe, if you do something I agree with, I'll agree with it. If you do something I disagree with, I'll not defend you.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
you have made it quite clear your feelings on this issue. i get it. no need to keep talking in circles and repeating yourself.

There is a need to repeat myself when you keep dodging my questions and seeing things in my posts that aren't there.

Like when you told VVD to read the posts. Bardock said there's a difference between fighting a reasonable battle and signing up to fight and invade a foreign country, to which you asked him if he wouldn't defend his loved ones, as if that were ever implied in his post.

If you read more closely and stopped the over-emotional, reactionary posting, I wouldn't have to repeat myself.

When you reply, please answer this question. I will repeat it civilly and for the last time because I have a feeling you will dodge it again (Which would prove cowardice on your part.): Why wouldn't you do it voluntarily? Why wait 'til you're forced? If it's such a respectable act, if it's worth so much, why do you need to be forced into it?

-AC

if i were 20 again, i probably would volunteer for it, despite my family protesting. i am pretty sure there is a cut off date as far as age goes for the military. in the Navy, i believe it is like 31 years old.

i was this close (holds fingers together) to joining the Marines at age 19, but my dad talked me out of it. at that point, it wasnt about defending my country, but about belonging to something.

are you happy now?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
if i were 20 again, i probably would volunteer for it, despite my family protesting. i am pretty sure there is a cut off date as far as age goes for the military. in the Navy, i believe it is like 31 years old.

i was this close (holds fingers together) to joining the Marines at age 19, but my dad talked me out of it. at that point, it wasnt about defending my country, but about belonging to something.

are you happy now?

List of maximum ages for enlisting in the US military:

Active Army - 42
Army Reserves - 42
Active Air Force - 27
Air Force Reserve - 34
Active Navy - 34
Naval Reserves - 39
Active Marines - 28
Marine Corps Reserve - 29
Active and Reserve Coast Guard - 27

That was from a messageboard dedicated to such discussion. I figured it might be a bit off, so I looked further:

http://usmilitary.about.com/b/a/156352.htm

We know that you "wanted" to, but got talked out of it (Gee, I wonder how.). You've said you would if you could go back, and tried weaseling out of answering by suggesting you're too old.

Your profile says you were born in 1970, which would mean you are still below either the limit in the list, or the limit displayed in the link above.

I'll ask again: Why haven't you volunteered?

-AC

I must say I do see a pattern there, too, RJ. Maybe you should stand up for what you speak out for.

Just to add, because I'm an informative person:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-08-01-army-age_x.htm

There it says the age limit is now just under 42.

Volunteer, RJ. You said you would do your duty if called, then you said you would volunteer if you were 20. If it's such a respectable, manly act, why aren't you volunteering now? Don't give me that "I'm too old.", because the US Army doesn't think you are.

-AC

I'm not volunteering because I don't want to get shot at and get yelled at by some hick instructer.

Originally posted by BackFire
I'm not volunteering because I don't want to get shot at and get yelled at by some hick instructer.

Thats true; they always tend to be hicks for some reason.

My D.I. was a good ol' boy from AR who had developed a colorful nickname for every one in my series with in the first week.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
talk about hypocrite alert.

as i said, if i were eligible for selective service, and i were to be called upon, i would go.



Right so you're a fat fvck who can't run a yard without using an inhaler I assume. The American attitude really pisses me off, 'if I could I'd go out there I'd bomb them to smitherines' - no you wouldn't, most you probably can't even pour milk on your cereal without your mums help.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
Right so you're a fat fvck who can't run a yard without using an inhaler I assume. The American attitude really pisses me off, 'if I could I'd go out there I'd bomb them to smitherines' - no you wouldn't, most you probably can't even pour milk on your cereal without your mums help.

He's out of excuses now anyway.

Someone I know is exactly the same. "If there was a war tomorrow I'd go around with a gun taking people out.", he says.

The man get scared going to see the doctor.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
He's out of excuses now anyway.

Someone I know is exactly the same. "If there was a war tomorrow I'd go around with a gun taking people out.", he says.

The man get scared going to see the doctor.

-AC

There is a war at the moment.. you ever told him?

Th-that's kind of the point.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Th-that's kind of the point.

-AC

Y-yes, so, you told him?

Also, that you do the stutter is hilarious...

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri

If my friend is jumped, I'll help. If my girl is jumped, I'll help. I

Hahahaha.



I think Benjamin was talking to you, RJ.

Well, not you. If you got jumped I'd join in and help them.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
How do you manage to be more and more irrelevant? Who said they weren't necessary? I said I think it's stupid to be one, so yes, I will call them stupid all I want.

They're not necessarily stupid for joining something dangerous, I just feel that removes all rights of sympathy in the event of death. What makes them stupid is the false obligation they feel they have for their country, and then wanting to fight for it no matter what. These soldiers getting upset because they dislike Bush's "war", well tough shit, they signed up for that.

However, let's discuss necessity shall we? My way of life has been the same as it always has since 1985. No Iraq, no Afghanistan, no Iran has ever made me not do something, or do something differently. So maybe they're not as necessary for actual protection as you think they are, just tools to wage unjust wars and conflicts in an attempt to maintain our "freedom" from people who could never realistically threaten it anyway.

"Be careful!", "Why?", "Because stuff is happening in a nation many thousands of miles away from us.".

So Bin Laden has the capacity to, once in a blue moon, kill a lot of people. That is a horrific possibility, but have you ever felt like your lifestyle was at risk because of him, in the same way that people feared say...Hitler? A man who could actually invade and conquer? A war where an army WAS necessary? I seriously doubt that. Yet of course, people knee-jerk to the "SUPPORT THE TROOPS!" and never think.


-AC

Long winded eh? I said call them stupid all you want and you said you would. Enough said.

Originally posted by Bardock42
I have to call bullshit.

Which part or parts?

The soldiers being necessary?

You calling them stupid?

Or you crying like a school girl if you needed your military and they weren't around?

That Pat Tillman, he's funny.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
That Pat Tillman, he's funny.

-AC

If being dead is funny; then he's a riot.

Could be, could be.

-AC

Originally posted by Robtard
Which part or parts?

The soldiers being necessary?

You calling them stupid?

Or you crying like a school girl if you needed your military and they weren't around?

The crying part. I totally agree with your "Call them stupid all you want" thing.

Originally posted by Bardock42
The crying part. I totally agree with your "Call them stupid all you want" thing.

Well at least you agree that soldiers are necessary... That's good. Considering they are necessary; why be so critical of them for joining? You're essentially saying they are stupid for filling a role/need you deem necessary... It's not like the military disperses and only reforms when there's a need.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
List of maximum ages for enlisting in the US military:

Active Army - 42
Army Reserves - 42
Active Air Force - 27
Air Force Reserve - 34
Active Navy - 34
Naval Reserves - 39
Active Marines - 28
Marine Corps Reserve - 29
Active and Reserve Coast Guard - 27

That was from a messageboard dedicated to such discussion. I figured it might be a bit off, so I looked further:

http://usmilitary.about.com/b/a/156352.htm

We know that you "wanted" to, but got talked out of it (Gee, I wonder how.). You've said you would if you could go back, and tried weaseling out of answering by suggesting you're too old.


-AC
i was talked out of it by my dad and grandma. apparently one of my uncles was a marine during WWII, another family member during korea, and one of my uncles during vietnam. my uncle? he was shot up pretty bad in Iwo Jima, and he never recovered. he was killed in the line of duty as a parish constable. the one during Korea? he was KIA. my uncle in vietnam? he died of a drug overdose in the late 70's. all 3 went to war, all 3 came back messed up or killed. so it's natural that they would want me to reconsider. my dad was like "ok, you want to be a marine? fine, but do this for me. come and work for me for a few months. see what it's like to be an adult in the working world. then, if you still want to join, you have my blessing." how can i refuse that? well, a few months turned into a few years. this led to that, things happened, and i never got around to enlisting.

Originally posted by Robtard
Well at least you agree that soldiers are necessary... That's good. Considering they are necessary; why be so critical of them for joining? It's not like the military disperses and only reforms when there's a need.

I don't think anyone's being critical of them joining but rather being critical of the fact that some soldiers are moaning about the risks of getting killed. If you sign up to the army you're taking on risk if you can't handle that then don't join.

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
Right so you're a fat fvck who can't run a yard without using an inhaler I assume. The American attitude really pisses me off, 'if I could I'd go out there I'd bomb them to smitherines' - no you wouldn't, most you probably can't even pour milk on your cereal without your mums help.
you are just too funny. anyone ever told you that?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
you are just too funny. anyone ever told you that?

Well Rogue I'm flattered. Has anybody ever told you how witty and bitey your comebacks are?

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
I don't think anyone's being critical of them joining but rather being critical of the fact that some soldiers are moaning about the risks of getting killed. If you sign up to the army you're taking on risk if you can't handle that then don't join.

There are always whiners in any group, they're the minority, so who gives a shit; let them whine.

And, people have been critical of the military and the need for soldiers. Alpha Centauri for one called them "Tools" used to wage unjust wars and implied a lack of necessity ; I don't think he's the only one.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Just to add, because I'm an informative person:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-08-01-army-age_x.htm

There it says the age limit is now just under 42.

Volunteer, RJ. You said you would do your duty if called, then you said you would volunteer if you were 20. If it's such a respectable, manly act, why aren't you volunteering now? Don't give me that "I'm too old.", because the US Army doesn't think you are.

-AC
well, i looked at the physical requirements, and i can meet them all, easily. i can even meet the requirements for 17 year olds. the one problem i have is running a long distance. i can still sprint as fast as i could when i was 20, and its not a question of me getting winded. it's my ankle. in my mid 20's, i sprained my right ankle terribly playing basketball. i tore every ligament i have. as a matter of fact, i talked to a recruiter like a year later, and he assured me, upon seeing the doctors report on my x rays, that it would pose a SERIOUS problem for me. he advised that i get surgery then get back with him in a year or so to ensure that i would be 100% going into basic training.

now i am sure you will think i am full of shit, and i could care less. you asked me why i dont up and volunteer, and now you have a valid answer.

Originally posted by Robtard
Alpha Centauri for one called them "Tools" used to wage unjust wars and implied a lack of necessity for one; I don't think he's the only one.

What are they then? You tell me what you believe they are, if not tools that are used to wage unjust wars.

I wasn't suggesting that was the reason armies were created, though it's obviously a part. I was suggesting that's what they are now, and have been for a long, long time.

You look at the Iraq "war" and tell me these men aren't tools. They are used by their government to fight unjust battles, and the worst part is, they sign up to do so unquestionably, then moan when they don't like what they're fighting for, that's just BS.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
i was talked out of it by my dad and grandma. apparently one of my uncles was a marine during WWII, another family member during korea, and one of my uncles during vietnam. my uncle? he was shot up pretty bad in Iwo Jima, and he never recovered. he was killed in the line of duty as a parish constable. the one during Korea? he was KIA. my uncle in vietnam? he died of a drug overdose in the late 70's. all 3 went to war, all 3 came back messed up or killed. so it's natural that they would want me to reconsider. my dad was like "ok, you want to be a marine? fine, but do this for me. come and work for me for a few months. see what it's like to be an adult in the working world. then, if you still want to join, you have my blessing." how can i refuse that? well, a few months turned into a few years. this led to that, things happened, and i never got around to enlisting.

You put a lot of effort into it and I haven't got much of a choice but to take your word for it, though it sounds like fabrication. That's not my concern, my concern is that you still haven't answered my question:

Why don't you volunteer now? Why haven't you volunteered since?

If it's such a respectable profession, if it's a duty you'd WILLINGLY and PROUDLY accept if forced, a manly duty, why not take it up of your own accord?

This is why I have to repeat myself, because you repeatedly dodge.

EDIT: See below.

-AC

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
Well Rogue I'm flattered. Has anybody ever told you how witty and bitey your comebacks are?
its been told to me on several occasions. what i dont get is why you chimed in insulting me for no reason. and why you think i fit the "fat and lazy" stereotype for americans. do you believe all stereotypes?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
well, i looked at the physical requirements, and i can meet them all, easily. i can even meet the requirements for 17 year olds. the one problem i have is running a long distance. i can still sprint as fast as i could when i was 20, and its not a question of me getting winded. it's my ankle. in my mid 20's, i sprained my right ankle terribly playing basketball. i tore every ligament i have. as a matter of fact, i talked to a recruiter like a year later, and he assured me, upon seeing the doctors report on my x rays, that it would pose a SERIOUS problem for me. he advised that i get surgery then get back with him in a year or so to ensure that i would be 100% going into basic training.

now i am sure you will think i am full of shit, and i could care less. you asked me why i dont up and volunteer, and now you have a valid answer.

Valid? That's just about the biggest load of horseshit I've ever heard. I know this because you previously said you'd definitely do duty if forced. You never said "If they drafted me, I would if I could, but due to medical issues, I cannot.".

It's all falling apart for you, "I can't, I've got a bad leg.". You even said above that this still doesn't rule you out of enlisting and being combat worthy, so why haven't you chased it up? Come on, answers please Mr. "You're not a man.".

"I can run as fast as I could when I was 17...now I'm late 30s, but it's somehow a problem for me.". Pathetic. Never speak to me of cowardice again.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri


You put a lot of effort into it and I haven't got much of a choice but to take your word for it, though it sounds like fabrication. That's not my concern, my concern is that you still haven't answered my question:

Why don't you volunteer now? Why haven't you volunteered since?

If it's such a respectable profession, if it's a duty you'd WILLINGLY and PROUDLY accept if forced, a manly duty, why not take it up of your own accord?

This is why I have to repeat myself, because you repeatedly dodge.

EDIT: See below.

-AC so now you are calling me a liar. real nice, AC. if you dont believe me, fine, pm FJ and she will confirm it.

i dont volunteer now because of what i previously posted, having a pre existing injury that requires surgery would hinder me. i dont know how much more clear i can be on that.

i tried to volunteer since, as i previously posted. and again, the injury.

clear enough?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
its been told to me on several occasions. what i dont get is why you chimed in insulting me for no reason. and why you think i fit the "fat and lazy" stereotype for americans. do you believe all stereotypes?

No it is not about stereotypes at all, you said if you were forced you'd join the army, definately, and gave no reason as to why you haven't already joined. The reason I chimed in insulting you is that what you were saying was stupid and nonsensical.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
What are they then? You tell me what you believe they are, if not tools that are used to wage unjust wars.

I wasn't suggesting that was the reason armies were created, though it's obviously a part. I was suggesting that's what they are now, and have been for a long, long time.

You look at the Iraq "war" and tell me these men aren't tools. They are used by their government to fight unjust battles, and the worst part is, they sign up to do so unquestionably, then moan when they don't like what they're fighting for, that's just BS.

-AC

Iraq is just one war, it doesn't equate to the larger scheme of things. Do you honestly think your way of life wouldn't be affected if Britain/UK did away with it's military?

As noted, there are whiners in every group, they're the minority so let them ***** and moan.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
i dont volunteer now because of what i previously posted, having a pre existing injury that requires surgery would hinder me. i dont know how much more clear i can be on that.

i tried to volunteer since, as i previously posted. and again, the injury.

clear enough?

See this post:

"It's all falling apart for you, 'I can't, I've got a bad leg.'. You even said above that this still doesn't rule you out of enlisting and being combat worthy, so why haven't you chased it up? Come on, answers please Mr. 'You're not a man.'.

'I can run as fast as I could when I was 17...now I'm late 30s, but it's somehow a problem for me.'. Pathetic. Never speak to me of cowardice again.".

Nothing you said previously rules you out of applying or enlisting, and yet, you haven't tried have you?

We both know why. So at least have the decency to admit it. You don't want to fight, you just want to talk about fighting. You are of acceptable age and, according to your post, fitness too. So why haven't you tried again?

It sounds like you're making the most of an injury that wouldn't matter.

-AC

Originally posted by Robtard
Iraq is just one war, it doesn't equate to the larger scheme of things. Do you honestly think your way of life wouldn't be affected if Britain/UK did away with it's military?

As noted, there are whiners in every group, they're the minority so let them ***** and moan.

Who said anything about doing away with military? I said my freedom has not been threatened once since I have been alive. 9/11 didn't threaten your freedom either.

The fact is, armies will exist, and there will be idiots who are easily convinced that joining and fighting for whatever cause the government sees fit, is a manly, brave act. So let them. I fail to see how I'm a coward because I don't want to.

You'll find that most of the people who have the opinion "YEAH! OUR TROOPS! GO TROOPS! YOU'RE A COWARD!", would never sign up. See Rogue Jedi for details.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Valid? That's just about the biggest load of horseshit I've ever heard. I know this because you previously said you'd definitely do duty if forced. You never said "If they drafted me, I would if I could, but due to medical issues, I cannot.".

It's all falling apart for you, "I can't, I've got a bad leg.". You even said above that this still doesn't rule you out of enlisting and being combat worthy, so why haven't you chased it up? Come on, answers please Mr. "You're not a man.".

"I can run as fast as I could when I was 17...now I'm late 30s, but it's somehow a problem for me.". Pathetic. Never speak to me of cowardice again.

-AC
so if you were a recruiter and a guy came to you with...lets say a bad knee, one that could very well be reinjured, would you still accept him? what if, in the heat of combat, he has to run to point A from point B to provide cover for his unit and his knee folds? what then? go ahead and accept him, knowing this could happen, leaving his unit hanging in the wind? look at the big picture.
if you and i were soldiers, and my vision was questionable, would you trust me to cover your back in a firefight?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
so if you were a recruiter and a guy came to you with...lets say a bad knee, one that could very well be reinjured, would you still accept him? what if, in the heat of combat, he has to run to point A from point B to provide cover for his unit and his knee folds? what then? go ahead and accept him, knowing this could happen, leaving his unit hanging in the wind? look at the big picture.
if you and i were soldiers, and my vision was questionable, would you trust me to cover your back in a firefight?

There are more jobs in the army than being a front line soldier....

Originally posted by chillmeistergen
There are more jobs in the army than being a front line soldier....
sure. i can be a receptionist, or an MP, or a chopper pilot. in the current war, they need front line soldiers.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Who said anything about doing away with military? I said my freedom has not been threatened once since I have been alive. 9/11 didn't threaten your freedom either.

The fact is, armies will exist, and there will be idiots who are easily convinced that joining and fighting for whatever cause the government sees fit, is a manly, brave act. So let them. I fail to see how I'm a coward because I don't want to.

You'll find that most of the people who have the opinion "YEAH! OUR TROOPS! GO TROOPS! YOU'RE A COWARD!", would never sign up. See Rogue Jedi for details.

-AC

The 9/11 attacks could have threatened my life/killed me.

I didn't call you a coward for not joining the military; but in my opinion you're being overly critical of the military generally speaking.

There's always asshats like that... I debate with them in the only other forum I debate in; which happens to be littered with Republican-Conservatives.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Who said anything about doing away with military? I said my freedom has not been threatened once since I have been alive. 9/11 didn't threaten your freedom either.

The fact is, armies will exist, and there will be idiots who are easily convinced that joining and fighting for whatever cause the government sees fit, is a manly, brave act. So let them. I fail to see how I'm a coward because I don't want to.

You'll find that most of the people who have the opinion "YEAH! OUR TROOPS! GO TROOPS! YOU'RE A COWARD!", would never sign up. See Rogue Jedi for details.

-AC
and you also said that if there was a war like WWII going on right now, you still wouldnt enlist or join if drafted. even when zee germans are bombing the crap out of your hometown, even as they prepare to invade, you would do nothing.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
and you also said that if there was a war like WWII going on right now, you still wouldnt enlist or join if drafted. even when zee germans are bombing the crap out of your hometown, even as they prepare to invade, you would do nothing.

So? This isn't about me. I've made my intentions, or lack thereof, toward war and army recruitment very clear and I have always stood by them.

Stop trying to dodge. Funny, you're a much bigger dodger than I could ever be.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
so if you were a recruiter and a guy came to you with...lets say a bad knee, one that could very well be reinjured, would you still accept him? what if, in the heat of combat, he has to run to point A from point B to provide cover for his unit and his knee folds? what then? go ahead and accept him, knowing this could happen, leaving his unit hanging in the wind? look at the big picture.
if you and i were soldiers, and my vision was questionable, would you trust me to cover your back in a firefight?

Hahaha, how desperate. Not only are you trying to give me specific scenarios in which your "injury" would prove dangerous, but you mess up on logic trying to cover your tracks.

First off, past injury or not, you said you can still run as fast as you did when you were 17, you are now late 30s. It's clearly not a "bad knee" is it? Not if you can do that.

Second, that recruiter scenario is bs. They are hiring people that could very well get blown to bits, you think they're going to turn you away because you MIGHT get injured in training, or your knee might give out on the battlefield? Such stupid crap. You could get shot in the face on a battlefield with your knee working fine. Your legs could get blown off, you could get injured in all manner of ways that cause a hinderance to your fellow soldiers, and you are there suggesting you couldn't go because your knee might give out?

I don't buy that, and I call bullshit on you. Your posts scream of nothing but cowardice and your cover has been well and truly blown.

-AC

Originally posted by Robtard
The 9/11 attacks could have threatened my life/killed me.

Irrelevant. Did they? No. Did they threaten your everyday freedom? Are you living life restricted? No, no.

Originally posted by Robtard
I didn't call you a coward for not joining the military; but in my opinion you're being overly critical of the military generally speaking.

I don't agree. I don't think people are critical enough.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Irrelevant. Did they? No. Did they threaten your everyday freedom? Are you living life less restricted? No, no.



I don't agree. I don't think people are critical enough.

-AC

Obviously no, if they did I'd be dead... Not sure what your argument here is as it pretains to topic, because the attacks on 9/11 only killed around three 3,000 people it's irrelevant?

Originally posted by Robtard
Obviously no, if they did I'd be dead... Not sure what your argument here is as it pretains to topic, because the attacks on 9/11 only killed around three 3,000 people it's irrelevant?

What they COULD have done IS irrelevant, seeing as we're not discussing what they could have done. We're discussing what they did, and the effects of.

If you have nothing to say to it, say nothing. Don't say something entirely different and attempt to suggest it's relevant.

-AC

Bored with this circular argument, i mean A.C. how many times can you argue the same thing on the same board?

-T.C.

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
So? This isn't about me. I've made my intentions, or lack thereof, toward war and army recruitment very clear and I have always stood by them.

Stop trying to dodge. Funny, you're a much bigger dodger than I could ever be.well, you mentioned me and cowardice in the same sentence. who's the bigger coward here? you would'nt lift a finger if the scenario i stated were true.



yes, i can still run as fast, but i am much more prone to reinjuring myself than i was then. also, they want soldiers who can give 100% every day, day in and day out.
getting injured in combat and reinjuring a pre existing injury are two different things. you think i am dodging you? you ask me a question, i answer, and you say my answer is crap because you dont like it. if anything, you are dodging my question of whether you would trust someone at your back in combat who isnt 100%

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
What they COULD have done IS irrelevant, seeing as we're not discussing what they could have done. We're discussing what they did, and the effects of.

If you have nothing to say to it, say nothing. Don't say something entirely different and attempt to suggest it's relevant.

-AC

Could is not irrelevant, because if nothing was done there could have been more attacks or there couldn't have been any. Personally I rather err on the side of caution.

What's your opinion on 9/11 and America's actions? Is it, America should have done nothing because the attacks killed a 'mere" 3000 people or America just did the wrong thing, but should haev done something?

I'll say what I please thank you very much.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
well, you mentioned me and cowardice in the same sentence. who's the bigger coward here? you would'nt lift a finger if the scenario i stated were true.

You are. I don't think that's a matter of debate after the shambolic explanations and excuses you've given.

I've admitted that I don't want to go to war, for many reasons, and I've stated them. It's not a matter of cowardice because I have specifically said I'd defend only those I care for. The difference is, you are an armchair troop supporter. You are a coward because you could blatantly enlist, you choose to make excuses to get out of doing so.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
yes, i can still run as fast, but i am much more prone to reinjuring myself than i was then. also, they want soldiers who can give 100% every day, day in and day out.

And you can too, can't you? They have the possibility of injury, so do you. You were previously injured, and if you hadn't recovered to the point of having a fully functioning knee, THEN you would be more prone to injury, but that's not the case. Quit the ducking and diving, you dodger.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
getting injured in combat and reinjuring a pre existing injury are two different things. you think i am dodging you? you ask me a question, i answer, and you say my answer is crap because you dont like it. if anything, you are dodging my question of whether you would trust someone at your back in combat who isnt 100%

No, your answer is crap because you're using pathetic hypotheticals to excuse yourself from service you previously spoke in favour of, and accused me of being less of a man than you for not accepting or wanting a part of.

I'm not dodging your question. Someone who isn't 100% wouldn't be there, would they? That doesn't apply to you, since everything you've said has suggested that you could perform, there's just a possibility you might re-injure yourself. Based on what? You were injured before? False. Like I said, you have clearly recovered if your boastful "I can run as fast." statements are true. You don't see recruitment officers turning people away in case they get shot and leave their man unguarded.

It doesn't add up, you're talking bullshit. You felt safe in the knowledge that you were out of recruitment age until I pulled it up. You never mentioned health until I called you on enlisting, now you're making scenarios up that don't coincide with what you have told us about your condition. You said you would go if forced, yet...you claim not to be at 100%, in which case you would have dodged the draft. You haven't thought about covering your tracks, and I'm dusting you for it.

You wouldn't fight, just like I wouldn't, because you're afraid. If you weren't, you'd have enlisted by now.

-AC

Originally posted by Robtard
Could is not irrelevant, because if nothing was done there could have been more attacks or there couldn't have been any. Personally I rather err on the side of caution.

It is irrelevant because those attacks have had zero effect on your life. So you using "could", instead of "did" or "did not" is irrelevant.

Originally posted by Robtard
What's your opinion on 9/11 and America's actions? Is it, America should have done nothing because the attacks killed a 'mere" 3000 people or America just did the wrong thing, but should haev done something?

They should have gone after the right people, not Iraq. Especially not Iraq under so many false guises.

Originally posted by Robtard
I'll say what I please thank you very much.

Then at least make it relevant and not for the sake of.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
It is irrelevant because those attacks have had zero effect on your life. So you using "could", instead of "did" or "did not" is irrelevant.

They should have gone after the right people, not Iraq. Especially not Iraq under so many false guises.

Then at least make it relevant and not for the sake of.

-AC

They attacked my country and they killed my countrymen, it could have easily been my city, me dead or someone I know. So I should be obtuse because I happened to be lucky enough to have not been killed; that's lame.

Well, that's an entirely different argument and thread and it's a more complex situation than either of us think. But I do agree in part.

If I didn't think it was, I wouldn't have said it.

Originally posted by Robtard
They attacked my country and they killed my countrymen, it could have easily been my city, me dead or someone I know. So I should be obtuse because I happened to be lucky enough to have not been killed; that's lame.

How were you lucky to not have been killed? Being in the attack and surviving, THAT'S being lucky enough to not have been killed. Living in an entirely different city and suggesting you were lucky is what's lame, Rob.

The fact is, I said it was irrelevant because you're saying what it could have been. We're not discussing that. You always feel the need to tack something needless onto a current debate, it's strange.

Originally posted by Robtard
Well, that's an entirely different argument and thread and it's a more complex situation than either of us think. But I do agree in part.

It's not complex, really. Iraq didn't do it, yet Iraq got whooped, under false guises and "Hell, there are terrorists there ANYWAY, so it's good enough.". Sorry, I don't accept that.

Originally posted by Robtard
If I didn't think it was, I wouldn't have said it.

Oh I know YOU think it was.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
How were you lucky to not have been killed? Being in the attack and surviving, THAT'S being lucky enough to not have been killed. Living in an entirely different city and suggesting you were lucky is what's lame, Rob.

The fact is, I said it was irrelevant because you're saying what it could have been. We're not discussing that. You always feel the need to tack something needless onto a current debate, it's strange.

It's not complex, really. Iraq didn't do it, yet Iraq got whooped, under false guises and "Hell, there are terrorists there ANYWAY, so it's good enough.". Sorry, I don't accept that.

Oh I know YOU think it was.

-AC

9/11 could have happened to any major city... Still doesn't take away that it happened in my country and to my countrymen; I refuse to be obtuse just because I didn't die (which I wouldn't be anything then) nor someone I know was killed. That's just foolish I think.

If you want to think the Iraq situation is so cut and dry and you figured it out entirely, go ahead.

Obviously I thought it was, that's what I said. Are you doing what you have accused me of? Not reading.. or are you implying that what you think is of greater importance since you did capatize the "YOU" when refering to me?

Originally posted by Robtard
9/11 could have happened to any major city... Still doesn't take away that it happened in my country and to my countrymen; I refuse to be obtuse just because I didn't die (which I wouldn't be anything then) nor someone I know was killed. That's just foolish I think.

As is the opinion that going to fight this war is great because it's some defense of freedom, which is what this debate was originally about. It's never been about freedom, there was never a threat to freedom.

Originally posted by Robtard
If you want to think the Iraq situation is so cut and dry and you figured it out entirely, go ahead.

I never said that, but what I said wasn't untrue.

Originally posted by Robtard
Obviously I thought it was, that's what I said. Are you doing what you have accused me of? Not reading.. or are you implying that what you think is of greater importance since you did capatize the "YOU" when refering to me?

You think it's relevant, I don't. This is evidenced by the fact that I have to keep bringing you back to the matter at hand, but that's neither here nor there.

-AC

Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
You are. I don't think that's a matter of debate after the shambolic explanations and excuses you've given.

I've admitted that I don't want to go to war, for many reasons, and I've stated them. It's not a matter of cowardice because I have specifically said I'd defend only those I care for. The difference is, you are an armchair troop supporter. You are a coward because you could blatantly enlist, you choose to make excuses to get out of doing so.you keep calling me a coward. you need to take a good look in the mirror. IF there were a draft, IF my country absolutely needed me, i would join up. i WOULD NOT run, i WOULD NOT draft dodge, as YOU would. running away when called upon when you are ultimately needed? THAT'S cowardice. what, you think i am gonna say "well, AC is right, i gotta up and volunteer now?"....that's BS. of course i am not gonna volunteer, but if there were a draft, i would'nt run, as you would.



you just don't get it. but if you feel better calling me a dodger, go ahead. you are letting your petty personal feelings towards me affect the way you post, little lady.



just because i can run as fast does'nt mean i have recovered. until i have surgery, i will never recover. ligaments dont just grow back. once they are snapped, they are snapped.

i never had a reason to bring up preexisting injuries until you mentioned the age requirement. call me a liar, a dodger, whatever you want, apparently you get off on that. i claimed to be 100% but i would have dodged the draft? WTF? what are you babbling about? i never said i would dodge the draft. thats your thing, running and hiding when law requires you to take up arms. and yes, i would be afraid. any seasoned combat veteran will tell you that they are afraid every time they go out on patrol. any cop will tell you they are afraid when they are doing their beat. whats being afraid got to do with it?

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
you keep calling me a coward. you need to take a good look in the mirror. IF there were a draft, IF my country absolutely needed me, i would join up. i WOULD NOT run, i WOULD NOT draft dodge, as YOU would. running away when called upon when you are ultimately needed? THAT'S cowardice. what, you think i am gonna say "well, AC is right, i gotta up and volunteer now?"....that's BS. of course i am not gonna volunteer, but if there were a draft, i would'nt run, as you would.

And yet, you claim that you aren't fit to serve, in which case the draft wouldn't apply to you anyway. You've slipped up so much that you're confusing yourself now.

You aren't going to volunteer because you're an armchair supporter of troops. Everything you've said so far suggests that you are able to and that you're making excuses.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
you just don't get it. but if you feel better calling me a dodger, go ahead. you are letting your petty personal feelings towards me affect the way you post, little lady.

And you aren't, which is why you're using phrases like "little lady", haha. You've been found out, just accept it.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
just because i can run as fast does'nt mean i have recovered. until i have surgery, i will never recover. ligaments dont just grow back. once they are snapped, they are snapped.

You can run as fast as you did three years before the injury, and you're now in late 30s. That's recovery, that is recovered. It's most CERTAINLY recovery enough to join the armed forces. You're either lying about the severity of your injuries, being injured at all, or being in good condition. The three can't be together.

Originally posted by Rogue Jedi
i never had a reason to bring up preexisting injuries until you mentioned the age requirement. call me a liar, a dodger, whatever you want, apparently you get off on that. i claimed to be 100% but i would have dodged the draft? WTF? what are you babbling about? i never said i would dodge the draft. thats your thing, running and hiding when law requires you to take up arms. and yes, i would be afraid. any seasoned combat veteran will tell you that they are afraid every time they go out on patrol. any cop will tell you they are afraid when they are doing their beat. whats being afraid got to do with it?

You can keep saying "running and hiding" as if it makes me look worse, and I'll just keep letting it roll off my back while you continue struggling to justify your "inability" to volunteer.

What you are saying doesn't add up. You aren't fit enough to volunteer, but you're fit enough to run at the speed you did when you were 17. You AREN'T fit enough to volunteer...yet if forced into the draft, you would somehow be of acceptable quality.

It's obvious. You won't volunteer for the same reasons I don't want to, because you are afraid of war and you're afraid of being killed in one. You like the idea of going, fighting for the "cause", but you won't do it. You're an armchair supporter.

-AC