Whose the Best Female Jedi?

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MasterAshenVor
here is my question who is the best FEMALE JEDI and when i mean the best i mean with Force\Saber\Sexy skills big grin

queeq
There's too much EU in this poll to make it live on in this forum. Moving to the EU forum.

Count Makashi
Aayla is the 'BEST', if you get my meaning.

allfg
Bastilla is the most powerful, closely followed by Nomi.

jollyjim311
Originally posted by allfg
Bastilla is the most powerful, closely followed by Nomi. Bane in dress.

MasterAshenVor
LOL!

Kadesh
Mara jade is, followed by Kreia

Alliance
Shaak. All the way.

((The_Anomaly))
Wheres Depa in this poll?

Nellis Munn
Shaak ti, Her will power is overwhelming.

MasterAshenVor
Sorry that i dident put all the girls in here i just thought of a few i couldent remember them all.

Burnt Pancakes
Mace.

Alliance
Originally posted by ((The_Anomaly))
Wheres Depa in this poll?

Bariss Offee? Luminara Unduli? Etain Tur-Mukan?

Master Bane

Gideon

Master Bane
She is, and she'd firmly beat anybody you just named. You can't deny that owning powerful Dark Jedi in saber combat while still only a padawan makes her pretty uber. That alone puts her above those you mentioned in my eyes, given the training, experience and general growth she subsequently gained. Bastilla just simply hasn't had enough exposure, but given what we know, we can guess that she's one of the best.

Riverollv
Originally posted by Count Makashi
Aayla is the 'BEST', if you get my meaning.

Damn right! btw, I go for Mara Jade (not in THAT meaning, though)

Gideon
Mara? No.

Lumiya? No.

Malak? She lost to him already.

Maul? Hell no.

Depa? Lmao, Nebaris, I'm losing sympathy for you and my feelings of hospitality and neutrality are fading. Depa would annihilate her in lightsaber combat.

Mace? Dream on, my friend. Dream on.



Gee. Guess we should give Obi-Wan an award for actually defeating a Sith Lord (who is far more powerful than anyone in Revan's cadre of dark Jedi). TPM Obi-Wan is already a mile ahead of Bastilla, by your logic.



Get some glasses, then.



Bastilla simply has no talent beyond her Battle Meditation, and she's not even the best in that department.



Rethink your guesswork.

Master Bane
1. Who mentioned Malak?

2. Despite Malak, she'd beat anybody on that list, she's simply too good.

3. What is it with you and threatening to start getting uncivil whenever we're on the opposite sides in a debate? Lol, seriously man, we may very different opinions, but that's no need to take anything too personally.



The difference is, Obi-Wan was getting his ass kicked, and got lucky. Bastilla was actually completely owning her opponent, which speaks for far more than what Obi-Wan did.



Proof for this? Given that Maul was simply a random force user that Sidious found that hadn't been discovered by the Jedi, whereas the Dark jedi with Revan were likely the elite of an entire order of them, I wouldn't say Maul is necessarily more powerful.



No, not really.

1. I see no reason to believe that Maul was more powerful than the Dark jedi Bastilla owned.

2. As I previously mentioned, Bastilla owned her opponent, whereas Obi-Wan was getting owned and managed to get a lucky shot to win.

3. Bastilla improved incredibly after the point in case.



Now now, if you're gonna be doing that, at least add in the s.



From what we know, she is, and it's funny how you constantly say that she only has one talent, despite me posting an entire essay's worth of them each time.



No, I'm good, though I'm thinking you need to come to terms with the fact that less exposure =/ less power.

Gideon
I did, and you said that Bastilla would "firmly beat anybody I named".



Wrong. Malak isn't on that list, and if you mean "someone I mentioned", then she'd go down to Maul, Depa, and Mace. Hard.



Because your opinions eventually cross the line from supportable to completely stupid.



Right. And "random Dark Jedi X" > Powerful Sith Lord.



Maul is "one of the deadliest Sith apprentices in history" (according to the Visual Guide, which is more canon than your interpretations of some weak Dark Jedi). There goes your entire point.

Furthermore, yes, that's exactly Sidious's intent. Recruit some weak Force user and dedicate twenty years into indoctrinating him in the Force to become his apprentice and enforcer. Right.

That was sarcasm, by the way, as his entire M.O. has been to get the "stronger apprentice".



Yet, I gave it to you. smile

Master Bane
I edited.

Gideon
I noticed. But it's not relevent to the debate, merely "poopycock" and "jibber-jabber" as the weird, old judge from Boston Legal would say. Great show, by the way.

Master Bane
Here's what you posted:

I think Mara Jade would do more than touch her. Her training as an Emperor's Hand and her additional training with Luke and war experience make her a formidable opponent. As I recall, she beat Lumiya once, too.

Bastilla really isn't uberpowerful, Nebaris. She's less than Maul. :s

Edit: And Depa, btw, would WTFpwn Bastilla - who is nowhere near being close to Mace - and Depa was stated to be a better swordsman than him.

Not seeing Malak's name anywhere... And just so you know, I was only talking about the females you mentioned, as you also mentioned Luke, and obviously he would beat Bastilla, not even I would go that far.



Firstly, I think you're getting confused with what I'm referring to. Here's what you posted (which I was referring to):

Mara? No.

Lumiya? No.

Malak? She lost to him already.

Maul? Hell no.

Depa? Lmao, Nebaris, I'm losing sympathy for you and my feelings of hospitality and neutrality are fading. Depa would annihilate her in lightsaber combat.

Mace? Dream on, my friend. Dream on.

So yes, Malak was on the list that I was referring to (which was evident given I quoted it...).

Secondly, except for Malak, she is more powerful than any of those. I bet I can make a better case for her than you can for them.



Look dude, I don't think too much of your 'Mace owns all darksiders because of Vaapad' or 'DE Sidious beats NJO Luke' theories, but I still remain civil, so I expect the same from you.



Since when was having the 'Sith Lord' title a prerequisite for being a powerful darksider? In case you hadn't noticed, there were only two darksiders available to Sidious during Maul's time, in contrast to the entire order during the KotOR period. The fact that the DJ Bastilla owned was an elite of an entire order of darksiders speaks for far more than Maul being the second best sith in an order consisting of a whole two force users. Especially considering:

1. The fact that the KotOR sith order was all about militancy, whereas Sidious' was about stealth, guile, deception and manipulation,

and

2. The fact that Revan had a much larger and greater selection of force users to pick from (given how many powerful jedi were falling in those days, whereas Sidious' selection was very limited, given the Jedi were usually the first to discover powerful force sensitive babies, and Sidious was left with the Jedi's leftovers or who they missed out).



Not really, given the fact that the VG quote refers to Bane's order (smaller selection), and the fact that the Dark jedi in question or anybody in the KotOR era doesn't apply to the filter.



The sarcasms great and all, but what you don't seem to get is that Sidious' selection of apprentices consisted of:

a) Force sensitive babies that the Jedi felt were too weak to be trained as Jedi,

or

b) Force Sensitive babies that the Jedi missed out on.

There's also the fact that he likely held Maul back more than anything (given he didn't really teach him any true sith secrets, or even basic darkside stuff such as force lightning), and again, there's also the fact that Sidious' order worked in secrecy, and that Maul's experience (battle experience especially) was pretty lacking.



No you didn't.

Riverollv
Damn it, MasterBane. I cannot understad how can you possibly compare a random dark jedi that even the not-so-special Bastila defeated EASILY with one of the deadliest Sith Apprentices of all time... its simply idiotic... with the proofs Gideo gave YOU, you must change your opinion... if not, youre really out of your mind

Kadesh
Originally posted by Gideon


Edit: And Depa, btw, would WTFpwn Bastilla - who is nowhere near being close to Mace - and Depa was stated to be a better swordsman than him. Are you kidding? That would make that indian lady stronger than sidious in lightsaber dueling

Count Makashi
Yea, Depa cant be good as Mace, it just doesn't ad up.

Apollo Cloud
Originally posted by Riverollv
Damn it, MasterBane. I cannot understad how can you possibly compare a random dark jedi that even the not-so-special Bastila defeated EASILY with one of the deadliest Sith Apprentices of all time... its simply idiotic... with the proofs Gideo gave YOU, you must change your opinion... if not, youre really out of your mind

What the...?

Let's put things into perspective.

1. Sidious' selection of apprentices consisted of the force sensitive babies that the Jedi either missed out on or skipped on (due to low potential). Revan's selection of Dark Jedi was much larger, given the fact that many Jedi had fallen to the Dark Side during the end of the Mandalorian Wars, and even more were being turned during the JCW. The selection even consisted of former Jedi Masters and Council Members. There's also the fact that Revan's order consisted of hundreds of DJ whereas Sidious' consisted of only two...

2. Revan's order of darksiders was one of the most militant orders of force users ever, that focused on combat. Sidious' order was one that focused on stealth, deception and manipulation. Logic dictates that an order that focused more on combat would produce more powerful combatants than an order that focused on secrecy, assassination and stealth. The darkside training for Revan's order would have been much more combat orientated. Hell, they even had multiple academies with the sole purpose of producing warriors.

3. The KotOR era was far more martial than the PT era, and thus battle experience and general combat would have been a much bigger aspect of sith life. Wartime generally brings the best out in warriors, and sorts out the weak from the strong. The PT era was relatively peaceful, and Maul really didn't do too many missions for his master, and fought hardly any jedi in his lifetime.

So what we're essentially getting down to is that both the DJ in question and Darth Maul are among the elite in their respective orders, but the things is, the DJ in question is in the elite of a much larger order (much larger doesn't even cut it, an order of 2 is hardly comparable to an order of hundreds...), with a finer selection of darksiders, who faced much more experience (as well as experience of a greater quality - pure battle and war experience, consisting of lots of Jed on Dark jedi action), and who were trained to be warriors (whereas Maul was basically trained to be an assassin). I'd say logic dictates that the DJ was more powerful, despite the lack of exposure.

Kadesh
Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
What the...?

Let's put things into perspective.

1. Sidious' selection of apprentices consisted of the force sensitive babies that the Jedi either missed out on or skipped on (due to low potential). Revan's selection of Dark Jedi was much larger, given the fact that many Jedi had fallen to the Dark Side during the end of the Mandalorian Wars, and even more were being turned during the JCW. The selection even consisted of former Jedi Masters and Council Members. There's also the fact that Revan's order consisted of hundreds of DJ whereas Sidious' consisted of only two...

2. Revan's order of darksiders was one of the most militant orders of force users ever, that focused on combat. Sidious' order was one that focused on stealth, deception and manipulation. Logic dictates that an order that focused more on combat would produce more powerful combatants than an order that focused on secrecy, assassination and stealth. The darkside training for Revan's order would have been much more combat orientated. Hell, they even had multiple academies with the sole purpose of producing warriors.

3. The KotOR era was far more martial than the PT era, and thus battle experience and general combat would have been a much bigger aspect of sith life. Wartime generally brings the best out in warriors, and sorts out the weak from the strong. The PT era was relatively peaceful, and Maul really didn't do too many missions for his master, and fought hardly any jedi in his lifetime.

So what we're essentially getting down to is that both the DJ in question and Darth Maul are among the elite in their respective orders, but the things is, the DJ in question is in the elite of a much larger order (much larger doesn't even cut it, an order of 2 is hardly comparable to an order of hundreds...), with a finer selection of darksiders, who faced much more experience (as well as experience of a greater quality - pure battle and war experience, consisting of lots of Jed on Dark jedi action), and who were trained to be warriors (whereas Maul was basically trained to be an assassin). I'd say logic dictates that the DJ was more powerful, despite the lack of exposure. Right right, and despite of that sidious whom has never fought a jedi before i believe easily slaughtered and annihilated 3 jedi masters with a swift stroke of the saber and instantly killed 3 sith masters who had enough power to ressurect life.

He never took part in war either. Lets talk about the PT jedi, they fought in the clone wars, and the CW is ALOT bigger than JCW. Brings out the best huh

Riverollv
Originally posted by Apollo Cloud


Let's put things into perspective.

1. Sidious' selection of apprentices consisted of the force sensitive babies that the Jedi either missed out on or skipped on (due to low potential). Revan's selection of Dark Jedi was much larger, given the fact that many Jedi had fallen to the Dark Side during the end of the Mandalorian Wars, and even more were being turned during the JCW. The selection even consisted of former Jedi Masters and Council Members. There's also the fact that Revan's order consisted of hundreds of DJ whereas Sidious' consisted of only two...

2. Revan's order of darksiders was one of the most militant orders of force users ever, that focused on combat. Sidious' order was one that focused on stealth, deception and manipulation. Logic dictates that an order that focused more on combat would produce more powerful combatants than an order that focused on secrecy, assassination and stealth. The darkside training for Revan's order would have been much more combat orientated. Hell, they even had multiple academies with the sole purpose of producing warriors.

3. The KotOR era was far more martial than the PT era, and thus battle experience and general combat would have been a much bigger aspect of sith life. Wartime generally brings the best out in warriors, and sorts out the weak from the strong. The PT era was relatively peaceful, and Maul really didn't do too many missions for his master, and fought hardly any jedi in his lifetime.

So what we're essentially getting down to is that both the DJ in question and Darth Maul are among the elite in their respective orders, but the things is, the DJ in question is in the elite of a much larger order (much larger doesn't even cut it, an order of 2 is hardly comparable to an order of hundreds...), with a finer selection of darksiders, who faced much more experience (as well as experience of a greater quality - pure battle and war experience, consisting of lots of Jed on Dark jedi action), and who were trained to be warriors (whereas Maul was basically trained to be an assassin). I'd say logic dictates that the DJ was more powerful, despite the lack of exposure.

So you're basically saying any random dark jedi which formed part of Revan's army could beat Maul? Right... which part of "ONE OF THE DEADLIEST SITH APPRENTICES EVER" do you not get?

Apollo Cloud
No, I'm saying that any top Dark Jedi within that order could.



And what don't you get about that purely applying to the Ro2 lineage? Really, Maul being one of the best of a lineage that were in hiding (and thus wouldn't have the same kind of experience that wartime sith lords would), and that focused on secrecy rather than sheer combat (training would have been more in stealth and assassination rather than pure combat oriented techniques) doesn't speak too much. There's also the fact that when the Ultimate Visual Guide is talking about apprentices, it's really talking about apprentices who never became Masters, otherwise said Sith Lords wouldn't really be considered apprentices. Now given that the majority of apprentices in the Ro2 lineage killed their masters and became the masters themselves, we're talking about quite a small number of people here, I'd estimate about 20 tops. So really, all that statement amounts to is that Maul was one of the best of a small group of apprentices in an order that were in hiding and who focused on stealth rather than sheer combat...

Riverollv

Apollo Cloud
Lmao! Clearly it was too complex for you, oh well, no worries. By the way, why you stealing Ackbar's sig?

Lightsnake
You're an idiot. Maul is directly stated to be one of the deadliest and most skilled Sith in the history of the Order.

Palpatine chose him ebcause he sensed great potential and raised him to be a perfect weapon.

End of story. Kthx, dumbass

Apollo Cloud
Do I really need to go back and start calling you LiarSnake again? Please, don't lie, that's never said.



Not denying he did, but you can't deny his selection was pretty limited.



Not really, you actually didn't add anything new to the debate, so your post would be what I call a 'waste of time post.' The story isn't over, b1tch.

Allankles
Wow! Maul was selected by Palpatine because he had great potential. And how do you go about arguing about Palpatine's limited options? He had an entire galaxy of force sensitive infants to choose from. Maul was trained to be a one man army, and was quite simply one of the deadliest Sith in history (not just in the Bane leagacy of Sith).

He was cultivated by the most powerful Sith in history to be a near perfect instrument of destruction, not even Dooku received such intense training under Palps. And as you quite rightly mentioned only got killed by Obi Wan because of his arrogance.

How in the hell does some random Dark Jedi, who never even warranted any mention, get to even be compared to Maul.

Let's put things into perspective,
Qui Gon Jin > Random Dark Jedi
Qui Gon Jin > Bastila
Darth Maul > Qui Gon Jin in combat.

Bastila's claim to fame is her natural apptitude towards Battle Meditation, beyond that she's mostly average (i.e. above canon-fodder Dark Jedi but still well below exceptional).

Maul was an exceptional fighter, the random Dark Jedi wasn't (by any stretch of the imagination).

Also, it should be noted that Bane's Sith had increased opportunities for training and learning as a result of the greatly decreased competition within their ranks. So, their training would normally be of a higher quality. That's why random dark Jedi got pwned by a padawan like Bastila.

Riverollv
You see? I'm not the only one that thinks your arguments are poor and stupid. btw, I dont even know who that Ackbar is, maybe we have the same sig, but I dont even know him man, I simply chose it from Alliance's coolest sigs

Apollo Cloud
My bad, I forgot that more exposure = more power. I guess that C3PO can own just about any Dark jedi within KotOR too then.

Allankles
Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
My bad, I forgot that more exposure = more power. I guess that C3PO can own just about any Dark jedi within KotOR too then.

If that's your counter argument then it's piss poor (to say the least). For one 3PO is protocol droid and although he can adapt to his experiences, he's not force sensitive and his protocol programming prevents him from gaining combat experience.

For a force sensitve a combination of natural talent and exposure lead to a greater mastery of the force. Palpatine trained Maul intensely and continually tested his mettle and skills. As has been mentioned before a Jedi/Sith thrives on such exposure, becoming more powerful or more skillful every time they survive.

Maul was trained specifically to be an instrument of destruction (almost from infancy), making him one of the most powerful Sith in history, when it comes to combat. And even still, hadn't reached his full potential at the time of his death (that tells you about the potential Palpy saw in him).

Apollo Cloud
You would know If I had made a counter argument, esse.



But he's featured in more sources, ergo he's more powerful. eek!



LMAO, you're totally missing what I'm saying. When I say exposure, I mean to us, the readers. You see, Maul has his own comicbook series, a few novels as well as a movie largely based on him. Thus, he's more powerful than the Dark Jedi, who only briefly appeared in one game. Now don't even try to step to me on this, my logic is foolproof.



That's all good, but training isn't everything, real life experience counts for way more, and it's something Maul is seriously lacking in.

There's also the fact that while he did train him pretty well, he also more than likely held him back (to stop Maul from ever growing more powerful than him. Dooku actually explains the system quite well in Dark Rendezvous, it's based on the idea that you have complete control over your apprentice's progress, and limit him to the point where he/she can never challenge you, but also make sure that said apprentice progresses well and can be used well as a tool. The fact that Sidious never taught Maul lightning supports this).



That's great, however much of his training was aimed to make him the perfect spy and assassin, not a pure warrior, which is how the DJ of old were trained.



Right, because your weird and random ramblings have totally proven that. I mean despite the fact that he had barely mastered one form, and despite the fact that he was getting his ass kicked by padawan Obi-Wan, and despite the fact that he never once showed anything too spectacular with the force, he's still totally one of the most powerful sith lords. roll eyes (sarcastic)



The fact that Maul hadn't reached his potential by the time he died at the age of 24 tells us about the potential Palpatine saw in him? Yeah, um, this makes sense.. roll eyes (sarcastic)

Allankles
Wow! Exposure (as you put it) is where we derive the necessary proof of a character's prowess. Your point is totally moot. No one is arguing Thrawn could beat Bastila (or even a random dark jedi) in a straight up duel. Quit with the straw man's already, it just shows your inability to argue over relevant points.

His training was designed to make him an instrument of destruction. Maul would make a poor spy, for one he's too conspicuous. Every mission Maul was given required that he used his skills as a warrior, from effectively disabling the most powerful criminal syndicate in the galaxy to hunting down Jedi.

How can you even argue over Maul's status as a warrior. Every training session we see him under has him practicing his combat skills, his choice of weapon further indicates his preferred approach (direct violence). In TPM Sidious fully expects him to handle two powerful Jedi at once in Qui Gon Jin and Obi Wan (who was virtually a Jedi Knight by then at 25). Maul was trained to be a warrior not a spy, try again.

He never demonstrated any fancy or over the top force technique but form TPM and the EU materials he's appeared in, he often used the force in a very effective manner.

In tpm especially he shows himself to be a crafty and subtle practitioner of the force, using it once to quickly disable a console, to give himself more room to retreat onto, in his duel with Obi and Jin and then taking advantage of Obi's eagerness by effectively taking him out of the fight with a well placed force push.

He also uses the dark side to withstand a direct blast of force lighting and kill his assailant while absorbing lighting with his body, in one EU comic.

So yes, I'd say that Maul without showing any fancy force techniques has demonstrated a great degree of resourcefulness with the force, coupled with his exceptional and unique combat skills (juyo with parts of teras kasi) and his unflinching devotion to the dark side makes him one the most powerful Sith in history.

MasterAshenVor
OOOO KKKK.........

Gideon
Lmao, Noobaris. I've lost all sympathy for you; the delusion that you're "one of zeh best!" debaters around here has seriously rendered your ability to thing logically (though you never really had much of one to begin with) a nonfactor. This stupid little session of bias (KotoR + Bane = teh uber!) is both irrelevent, unsupported, and completely false. Bastilla Shan is not a talented Jedi. She couldn't take Mara Jade, who received thorough training from Palpatine (who would own Bastilla with a mere thought, I might add), or Lumiya - who managed to give Luke a hard time, let alone Depa Billaba or Mace (whom you believe that she could defeat). You couldn't make a good argument in any case, so stop kidding yourself.

First, Maul has been heralded as "one of the deadliest Sith apprentices" in history from a canon source. Just to reiterate here, your opinion (even if it weren't so pathetic) isn't canon. Your interpretations of what you deem to be "facts" aren't canon. The Visual Guide is. So, already, you're at a loss. Prove that it was of Bane's lineage, or shut the hell up.

Second, Sidious is the representation of the mystery, guile, subterfuge, and manipulation of the Sith. There is no reason to believe that Maul himself was, as Maul has never been proven to be a master political tactition. In fact, he was Sidious's enforcer, relying on his prowess with a lightsaber and combat skills to execute Sidious's agenda. So, once again, shut the hell up. Maul's training wasn't based on Sidious's methods, which means that he is no less of a warrior. Period.

Third, the comparisons with Dooku and Maul are completely different, as it has been proven that Maul had absolutely no intent of betraying or killing his master, due to Sidious indoctrinating him from childhood. Dooku was an extremely skilled political idealist and already a powerful Force user in his own right, which is why Sidious kept Dooku at arm's length. So, your point is irrelevent.



Lmao. The Visual Guide confirms that he is one of the "deadliest" in history. This is irrefutable and indisputable. Simply because you don't want to believe that Maul is skilled doesn't make it so. In short, you're wrong. Again. smile

Oh, and didn't you say that Obi-Wan got lucky? Blatant contradiction, Noobaris. Goes to show that you have to contradict yourself (basically owning your own argument) to even try to make a point. A failed attempt, at best.

In conclusion, we can debate this all day. Bastilla's weak in all aspects compared to - well... just about everyone marginally talented. As I said, her only noteworthy skill is Battle Meditation, and she's not even the best there. Sidious controlled the entire Imperial Fleet when he used Battle Meditation, could actively engage in conversations and even in a confrontation (not requiring the meditation state that Bastilla was forced to go into), and the sole reason the Empire lost at Endor was that they were reeling from Palpatine's death. Confirmed from the novelization, canon.

Jeez, Noobaris. Darth Sexy was right, you really do suck at debating.

Lightsnake
Maul was sent on numerous, numerous missions in his loifetime. Jedi, Black Sun, sabateurs and others. He has plenty of experience. And took down one of the best saber duelists of the Jedi Order with ease.

Lightsnake
Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
Do I really need to go back and start calling you LiarSnake again? Please, don't lie, that's never said.
Lying idiot. Ultimate Visual Guide, The Phantom Menace section. Jessiah, you want to give the exact page?



Big deal. He chose the best he could and he made him the perfect weapon. Maul's abilities lay in combat skilol


Whining foolery

Gideon
Heading to Dad's tonight. When I get there, we'll give him the page. ^_^

Edit: Oh, and Noobaris, since when has "being undiscovered by the Jedi" been an accolade for "lack-of-skill"? As I seem to recall, a certain Chosen One remained hidden from the Jedi for the longest time...

xxXAcStylesXxx
As much as I disagree with how Nebaris makes her out to be she is FAR from untalented.

Gideon
Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
As much as I disagree with how Nebaris makes her out to be she is FAR from untalented.

She's not talented in comparison to the heavy hitters.

Gideon
"The present Sith Master, Darth Sidious is the diabolically brilliant mind behind the training of one of the most dangerous Sith apprentices in history: the deadly Darth Maul."

"Fiercely demanding of high standards, Sidious has been known to dismiss individuals simply for communiciating with too weak a signal."

-- The Complete Visual Dictionary, page 50.

"Darth Maul is one of the most highly trained Sith in the history of the order."

"Pushing his physical and Force-assisted abilities to the utmost, Darth Maul built and uses a double-bladed lightsaber as his primary weapon."

-- The Complete Visual Dictionary, page 51.

Now, I've taken your lack of reading ability and deductive reasoning skills into regard, and so I've bolded the important parts, just in case reading the complete quotes is too much of an effort for you, and before you go off on the deep end in regards to the second quote (in regards to its relevence), it simply goes to show that Sidious was "fiercely demanding of high standards" -- so I doubt he'd take Maul under his wing if he didn't detect a powerful presence in the Force about him. To propose otherwise is sheer stupidity, as it is a recurring theme in the entire saga (movies 1 - 6, in case you've slept through them) that the Emperor wants a powerful apprentice. So, why he would settle for someone sub-par - especially when he himself merely plots without execution - is both proposterous and stupid.

But, then again, it came from you, did it not, Noobaris?

In regards to some of your other points, such as Sidious "most likely holding him back", is also stupid. Maul was indoctrinated in the Sith arts at an extremely young age; he wasn't like Dooku or Anakin in that respect. It has been also proven - especially in Shadow Hunter - that Maul had no ambition outside of serving his master, even when confronted with the fact that, in order to ascend to masterhood himself, he would have to kill Sidious and take on his own apprentice. Maul wasn't an extremely independant political idealist like Dooku - nor was he a whiney, tempermental man with conflicted emotions like Anakin. So, that's where the theory that you concocted dies a tragic - yet completely painful - death.

I would also like the name and page of the source that details that Maul didn't know Force lightning, because I honestly don't recall it. It doesn't say anything of the sort in here , that's for certain. In fact, if you'd like to get thoroughly technical, the Ultimate Visual Guide (not to be confused with the Complete Visual Dictionary) states that Maul exhibited "far superior" dark side knowledge than Mighella, who - incidentally - attacked Maul with Force lightning. Hmmm...

In conclusion, Maul is leagues - and leagues (!) - ahead of Revan's cadre of bodyguards. And, my friend , he is much more skilled than Bastilla Shan.



Try foolish, Noobaris.

And, I don't believe I've stepped to you, but - rather - on you.

Tangible God
On, above and all over.

Gideon
Originally posted by Tangible God
On, above and all over.

So, does my post get the "Tangible God's Hawt/Sexy Award of Ownagocity"?

Kadesh
Originally posted by Allankles
Wow! Exposure (as you put it) is where we derive the necessary proof of a character's prowess. Your point is totally moot. No one is arguing Thrawn could beat Bastila (or even a random dark jedi) in a straight up duel. Quit with the straw man's already, it just shows your inability to argue over relevant points.

His training was designed to make him an instrument of destruction. Maul would make a poor spy, for one he's too conspicuous. Every mission Maul was given required that he used his skills as a warrior, from effectively disabling the most powerful criminal syndicate in the galaxy to hunting down Jedi.

How can you even argue over Maul's status as a warrior. Every training session we see him under has him practicing his combat skills, his choice of weapon further indicates his preferred approach (direct violence). In TPM Sidious fully expects him to handle two powerful Jedi at once in Qui Gon Jin and Obi Wan (who was virtually a Jedi Knight by then at 25). Maul was trained to be a warrior not a spy, try again.

He never demonstrated any fancy or over the top force technique but form TPM and the EU materials he's appeared in, he often used the force in a very effective manner.

In tpm especially he shows himself to be a crafty and subtle practitioner of the force, using it once to quickly disable a console, to give himself more room to retreat onto, in his duel with Obi and Jin and then taking advantage of Obi's eagerness by effectively taking him out of the fight with a well placed force push.

He also uses the dark side to withstand a direct blast of force lighting and kill his assailant while absorbing lighting with his body, in one EU comic.

So yes, I'd say that Maul without showing any fancy force techniques has demonstrated a great degree of resourcefulness with the force, coupled with his exceptional and unique combat skills (juyo with parts of teras kasi) and his unflinching devotion to the dark side makes him one the most powerful Sith in history. good one, nebaris is getting owned again

LORDSIDIOUS01
Mara Jade

jollyjim311
I agree with Gideon, mainly due to him being 100% correct. Also, Nebs, if you think Maul has no combat experience... Go pick up any book or comic with Maul in it. He has "Far superior darkside knowledge" than Mighella, and was trained to be "faster, stronger, and smarter than any foe could anticipate." He "mastered the lightsaber" along with practicing Teras Kasi and marksmanship. In the Maul comic alone, he left piles of bodies in his wake, with no effort. He survived for a month against a legion of assassin droids (who I doubt left him the luxury of sleep). Bastilla wouldn't survive Maul's average day of training. I could go one, but, seeing as Maul has a penis (presumably, I wouldn't know, I'm not into fan-fiction), he doesn't count on this thread. However, Depa, Mara Jade, and... Leia(!) do count. Depa has better bladework then Mace (I'm assuming that is only technical skill, it doesn't mean she could beat Mace in a blade-to-blade confrontation, seeing as Mace is still stronger, faster, and has an unrivaled Shatterpoint ability).

Bastilla is good, and really helpful with battle meditation, but not a top contender. And don't bring up Githany next, because, the same thing will happen. She is good, but, not on par with the likes of Depa.

Count Makashi
Bastilla sucks, she hasn't done nothing impressive in personal combat and Maul is a word-class fighter.

LordGrievous
Grievous is neither so can i vote for him/her/it?

Apollo Cloud
JollyJim, based on what we do know, she's one of the best female force users ever, whether it be saber skills or force powers, or whatever. She's quite simply extremely underrated. The facts are:

1. She has an incredible connection to the force.
2. She is a saber prodigy.
3. She is a force prodigy.
4. She's had some pretty damn good training and experience to hone her potential.
5. She has performed feats that back all of that off.

Personally, I'd say the only other females that can match her are Nomi Sunrider (force and saber), Depa Billaba (saber) and Darth Traya (force). Maybe I was going a bit too far earlier, but I think it can certainly be agreed that she's highly underrated and is one of the magor female powerhouses. Personally I'd say she'd own someone of Maul's caliber.

((The_Anomaly))
Originally posted by jollyjim311
I agree with Gideon, mainly due to him being 100% correct.

LMAO, I love that statement. laughing out loud

Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
JollyJim, based on what we do know, she's one of the best female force users ever, whether it be saber skills or force powers, or whatever. She's quite simply extremely underrated. The facts are:

1. She has an incredible connection to the force.
2. She is a saber prodigy.
3. She is a force prodigy.
4. She's had some pretty damn good training and experience to hone her potential.
5. She has performed feats that back all of that off.

Personally, I'd say the only other females that can match her are Nomi Sunrider (force and saber), Depa Billaba (saber) and Darth Traya (force). Maybe I was going a bit too far earlier, but I think it can certainly be agreed that she's highly underrated and is one of the magor female powerhouses. Personally I'd say she'd own someone of Maul's caliber.

1. Really? How do you know this?
2. How is she a saber prodigy? I saw nothing to make me believe she was at all.
3. She is good at battle meditation, thats about it.
4. Really? With her what...3 days of training with Malak? Which training are you talking about?
5. Which feats?

Seriously, do you have real proof of anything your saying, or are you just saying it?

Apollo Cloud
Wow, clearly you were asleep for the 50 or so times I provided evidence for these claims.



She was known as having exceptional strength in the force (it's stated constantly throughout KotOR), and her connection was made even greater after having been boosted by the Star Forge.



She was stated as being so by the Masters at Dantooine, and a lot supports this, such as tooling a powerful dark jedi while still a padawan.



Common misconception, she's just plain good with the force, period. Off the top of my head, instantly stunning two powerful jedi with no apparent effort, or force persuading a Hutt are two examples off her ability with the force being exceptional.



3 days? What the hell are you talking about? It's unknown how long her training was. What we do know, however, is that it was extensive enough for her to have been taught techniques such as force drain, aka the greatest of all sith techniques, and force lightning. And that's just her darkside training, she also has the same Jedi training any other Jedi would have. Point is, she has extensive training in both sides of the force, exceptional potential, and the experience to hone that potential.



Saber owning powerful dark jedi while still a padawan, instantly stunning two powerful Jedi with ease, having a willpower on the next level to force persuading a Hutt. How about playing KotOR?



Oh my days, look, just because you haven't seen proof, or aren't willing to accept it, it doesn't mean I haven't provided proof.

Bastilla was labelled a force and lightsaber prodigy by the Masters on the Dantooine Council during KotOR. She was also noted as having exceptional innate talent with the force, so she ticks all of the boxes really: force strength, force prodigy and lightsaber prodigy. As a padawan, she was already considered a legend among the Jedi, a rising star among their ranks, and beyond most of the then current masters despite her lack of age/rank/experience. She was extremely prodigious. Her ability to form bonds (with Revan) also strongly speaks for her massive force strength, and this was even noted by the masters.

She was labelled a master swordsman, and the doublebladed lightsaber was her weapon of choice.

The experience she received on her journeys with Revan during KotOR 1 would had made her extremely powerful (Revan's party comes across literally hundreds of Dark Jedi during KotOR, so it can be assumed that Bastilla faced and defeated quite the number. That's just Dark Jedi, she would have also received loads of experience on all of the quests that go on through KotOR). She was already an extremely gifted and powerful Knight, so by halfway through KotOR (where she becomes a Knight) and by the end of KotOR 2 (where she's a Master), her improvement rate would have been huge (given the huge experience she received, her youth and her prodigy). The fact that she survived Sion and Nihilus' Shadow Wars also speaks volumes, and the speed in which she climbed the ranks is tremendous.

Not only did she receive training in the lightside of the force by the Jedi, but she was also given extensive training in the darkside by Malak. This can be seen when she knows of such techniques as force lightning and force drain. She was also powered up by The Star Forge to some degree (given that Malak was relying on her impressive Battle Meditation to defeat the Republic, he would have wanted to power her up as much as possible as long as there was enough power left for him), and as we know the power up would remain permanent, so her already extremely impressive strength in the force would have been further augmented by an imaginable tremendous increase.

Her lightsaber skills were clearly incredible, given that when she was a mere padawan, she displayed the ability to lightsaber tool a powerful Dark Jedi that had been accompanying Revan in mere seconds (it's in a cutscene at the start of KotOR). The Dark jedi was accompanying Darth Revan, so he was clearly one of the more powerful Dark Jedi, yet Bastilla, while still a padawan, completely owned him. That kind of tremendous ability while still a padawan makes you wonder how powerful she becomes by the end of KotOR two, with all her extra training and experience, and after being SF powered.

The fact that she was even given the responsibility to be part of the strike team that was responsible for capturing Revan speaks volumes. Now I know people will say she was only picked for her Battle Meditation, but that was to only ensure that the strike team would be able to board Revan's ship. She wouldn't have also subsequently boarded Revan's ship with the other jedi if they didn't believe she had the skills to be an asset. So the fact that the Jedi Order gave her so much responsibility (also seen when that let Bastilla in on Revan's true identity) despite her young age and lack of experience speaks volumes for how gifted a padawan she was.

Now when Malak blasted on Revan's ship just before the Jedi could face him, it knocked Revan unconscious and would have killed him if not for Bastilla. Not only did she survive and remain conscious after the ship had been hit (which had enough power to kill Revan), but she was also able to use the force to keep Revan alive.

Now all of the above is mostly not even mentioning her force ability, which is what she excels at. First off, her willpower was so incredible that she was able to force dominate a fricking Hutt. That alone puts her will beyond any movie character, given they all viewed such a feat as impossible, and thought of Hutts as being immune to mind tricks.

Another thing supporting her tremendous will (as well as force strength) is how incredible her battle meditation was. It was above that of people such as Nomi Sunrider (who could literally visualise something, and it would just happen: force her will onto reality), and so strong that she had the ability to turn the tide of wars instantaneously for a side that was seconds away from defeat and losing badly. her ability with the technique was so great that both the Jedi and the Sith (when she was one) literally solely relied on it for the war effort.

She's also displayed the force strength to instantly stun two very powerful jedi (Jolee Bindo and Juhani) pretty effortlessly. Now what people don't seem to get is overpowering any force user, no matter how you do it, always requires the same power, and that is the power to break through their force defence. In other words, if she chose to, she could have just as easily been able to instantly kill both of them on the spot. Now seeing as how people go on about Exar Kun force owning Odan-Urr like he did, and Traya owning those Jedi Masters like she did, you have to view what Bastilla did as even more incredible, given she did it instantly, and with no apparent effort.

(((copied and pasted from another thread, stuff on Vader was edited out)))

Gideon
Bastilla's training of Malak pales in comparison to the two decades that Maul received under Sidious, Nebaris. It is ridiculous to assume that her training would even come close in terms of quality or time. Sidious was more powerful than Malak and had vastly superior knowledge, and nothing indicates that he "held Maul" back at all, since Maul himself had no ambition to kill Sidious.

He also was stated by a canon source (the Ultimate Visual Guide) to have "far superior dark side knowledge" than Mighella, who used Force lightning against Maul. So it is logical to assume that he did indeed know how to use and control Force lightning; he also exhibited an unnatural resistance to the Force as well, absorbing the Force lightning without immense pain or being wounded.

Furthermore, I've already proven that Revan's cadre of dark side adepts are no match for someone as Maul (and, realistically speaking, I find that both immature and ridiculous of you to claim). The term "powerful" is getting used far too much. Revan's bodyguards weren't powerful, nor would I use that to describe to Jolee.

He is also stronger, more agile, faster, and much better trained in the martial arts than she is. She doesn't stand a chance against him.

xxXAcStylesXxx
Sure she does, but then again as I've said in the past, pretty much every single main character of any Star Wars novel/game/rpg/comic/movie/cartoon ect ect all are described as having "incredible connections to the force."




No, she's not. You keep pulling this out of your ass with no quote what so ever, being as I've gone through KOTOR multiple times and pretty much fine toothed combed any dialog in relation to "power" I NEVER heard ANYONE in the game call Bastila a saber prodigy, I've never heard ANYONE in the game called a prodigy except for Revan at the very end.

So either your lying, or you've misinterpreted the dialog which ever the case you still wrong.

And don't go on about "OMG she pwned some random Dark Jedi!!!111!!" because first of all we cut into her fight with the DJ mid-duel, (for all we know she could have been fighting him up and down the ship) we have no real indication that he was powerful at all (and no, standing next to Revan doesn't count) and thus you have no real point.




Ah, no. Having one special ability doesn't make you a force prodigy, if thats the case then Mace Windu with his unparalleled Shatterpoint ability is a god of the force and and would rub his dirty shit stained purple underwear on Yoda and NJO Luke's face.

And again there's no quote from the masters on Dantooine that says she's a prodigy of anything, infact they mostly belittle Bastila as a headstrong, pompous little Padawan.

Oh, you keep trying to claim that the Star Forge's power had lasting effects on Bastila. No. What happens when someone is cut off from their power source? They, logically, lose that power with which they had. You trying to prove otherwise is absolutely idiotic.

As for the Hutts since they are apparently not immune to mind tricks, where does it say that the Hutt on Tantooine had anything on Jabaa.

And finally, stunning those "powerful" Jedi like Juhani and Jolee, first up Juhani who has beaten by Revan as a padawan...alone and guess what with the aid of the Dark Side she can put BASTILA in a stasis. Then there's Jolee who may have been hot stuff in his day but now he's nothing more then a washed up old man and were given no indicating that he could even come close to any of the era's tops.




Great, and that comes ANYWHERE near what Maul endured? No, it doesn't.



Not really, all of them are horribly over hyped by you. And you fail to mention:

1. She's been put in a stasis by Juhani
2. Overpowered by a few random thugs
3. She admits her own weakness to Revan on the Ebon Hawk
4. She has NUMEROUS major personality flaws which could easily be exploited in battle by anyone with a brain.
5. Her 1337 will was broken by Malak
6. Malak easily put her in a stasis
7. She was beaten by Revan what 5 times in a row?



Personally, I'd say kinda strong, yeah but a magor powerhouse? No.

((The_Anomaly))
Well that was some pwnage.

Kadesh
Originally posted by Count Makashi
Bastilla sucks, she hasn't done nothing impressive in personal combat and Maul is a word-class fighter.

^ agree

Council#13
I hate Maul. disgust He killed Qui-Gon. But he's awesome with his cool fighting skills. raver

vader11
Mara Jade.

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