Handbooks versus On-panel feats

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masterbruce
Which holds more authority and credibility for you?

In my opinion, handbooks are what the company INTENDED the character to be. Handbooks are free of PIS or CIS. Onpanel feats, while GENERALLY useful, are prone to one writer's bias or lack of knowledge taking the character beyond what they were meant to be.

Symmetric Chaos
Handbooks don't really mean anything.

They're just as prone to allowing PIS events into them. (why the hell would they leave out CIS btw?)

Handbooks also tend to give ratings to characters that don't match with what happens in comics.

masterbruce
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Handbooks don't really mean anything.

They're just as prone to allowing PIS events into them. (why the hell would they leave out CIS btw?)

Handbooks also tend to give ratings to characters that don't match with what happens in comics.

1. Handbooks give all relevant stats and powers of a character

2. Handbooks have NO PIS.

3. Handbook ratings don't match with what happens in comics because there are so many different writers of comics who have different ideas of what the characters should be able to do and create PIS events.

Estacado
Handbooks aren't written by comic book writers....

masterbruce
Originally posted by Estacado
Handbooks aren't written by comic book writers....

they're produced by the company's highest ups...the editors. They're also not the ideas of one writer or idea, but rather the thoughts of the WHOLE company.

also, notice that handbooks remain pretty consistent over time. Whereas onpanel feats vary wildly from ridiculous low feats to over the top high feats.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by masterbruce
1. Handbooks give all relevant stats and powers of a character

But only on scales so you get a very limited idea of what any of it means.

Originally posted by masterbruce
2. Handbooks have NO PIS.

Only through tautology.

Originally posted by masterbruce
3. Handbook ratings don't match with what happens in comics because there are so many different writers of comics who have different ideas of what the characters should be able to do and create PIS events.

Would you place more trust in going to Alaska and looking around or read the Wiki article on Alaska?

Juntai
When debating COMIC BOOKS, one uses the COMIC BOOKS to debate.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Juntai
When debating COMIC BOOKS, one uses the COMIC BOOKS to debate.

thumb up

masterbruce
this is the way I look at it.

If we are debating 2 characters, we first look to the handbook. If one character has better stats in everything then that character wins.

Now, if both characters have similar stats or each has advantages in certain areas, THEN we look to comics to see who has better showings.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by masterbruce
this is the way I look at it.

If we are debating 2 characters, we first look to the handbook. If one character has better stats in everything then that character wins.

Now, if both characters have similar stats or each has advantages in certain areas, THEN we look to comics to see who has better showings.

no expression

That's debating powersets. By that logic beating Taskmaster H2H would be impossible.

Estacado
Only one question.
Since when can Thanos move at the speed of light?

masterbruce
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
no expression

That's debating powersets. By that logic beating Taskmaster H2H would be impossible.

I guess you're right...Rhino would be pretty impressive based on handbook bio, but his loser-aura would decimate him in a fight against anyone.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by masterbruce
I guess you're right...Rhino would be pretty impressive based on handbook bio, but his loser-aura would decimate him in a fight against anyone.

No . . . confused CIS (which is part of the character) causes him to lose as does his lack of skill.

masterbruce
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
No . . . confused CIS (which is part of the character) causes him to lose as does his lack of skill.

yeah, what I mean is that the handbooks don't take CIS into account.

CIS is valid, while PIS is not.

They should have a statline for CIS as well...(ie, Captain America would be a 7 while Rhino would be a 1, and Galactus would be a 3)

Newjak
I'm not saying that Handbooks should be used for everything but an honest blend between understanding of a character and a blending of comic book feats should be used.

It does help if give you a basic idea.

Because if you solely go by comic book panel feats every single comic character will have the "moment" where they completely go against everything they had been before or feats that go above the norm.

I mean GLs are pretty powerful but when you have them containing Big Bangs I think the writer is an idiot. When you have Thor driving off Galactus by himself then I think the writer should be shot.

When you have Batman killing Doomsdays with an axe teh writer should never breed.

Symmetric Chaos
Originally posted by Newjak
I'm not saying that Handbooks should be used for everything but an honest blend between understanding of a character and a blending of comic book feats should be used.

It does help if give you a basic idea.

Because if you solely go by comic book panel feats every single comic character will have the "moment" where they completely go against everything they had been before or feats that go above the norm.

I mean GLs are pretty powerful but when you have them containing Big Bangs I think the writer is an idiot. When you have Thor driving off Galactus by himself then I think the writer should be shot.

When you have Batman killing Doomsdays with an axe teh writer should never breed.

I thought the idea behind taking average feats (or mode feats) was that we wouldn't go by nothing but high feats.

masterbruce
Originally posted by Newjak


I mean GLs are pretty powerful but when you have them containing Big Bangs I think the writer is an idiot. When you have Thor driving off Galactus by himself then I think the writer should be shot.

When you have Batman killing Doomsdays with an axe teh writer should never breed.


EXACTLY. that's what made me make this post, so many ludicrous feats are used by people as legitimate or cannon simply because they appear ONPANEL.

don't shiv
handbooks can be written by a no name college grad/nooby intern roped into the office at short notice and briefed at short notice and left unattended with the keys to the kingdom

Editor checks in "do over this!" "spelling mistake thur Chronos NOT Chrono!" "paragraphs too long... writing a love letter there bunky?"

Editor signs presentable looking handbook entry and files it.

Nooby intern escapes.

Newjak
Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I thought the idea behind taking average feats (or mode feats) was that we wouldn't go by nothing but high feats. What are you trying to say.

That we should use npthing but high feats erm

don't shiv
a writer usually reads reams and reams of on panel feats b4 writing a pilot script and ultimately jumping on board an ongoing title.

on panel feats f.t.w.

golem370
Apocalypse seems more powerful in Marvel Handbooks then he does in Comic pages

Mr Master
(IMO)


The only puorpse a Bio serves is to further validate an On Panel Feat.


There are three methods used during debating.


1. On Panel feats/occurrances.

2. Bio stated feats/occurrences.

3. Talking out your ass. (No proof of any kind)



On Panel > Bio > sign23


If it happened On Panel but Not in a Bio ... it Happened.

If it happened in a Bio but Not On Panel ... it Never Happened.

If it happened in both sources but they remotely contradict each other, On Panel > Bio

If it happened in both sources and they comply, You Win the debate.

Alfheim
Originally posted by Mr Master
(IMO)


The only puorpse a Bio serves is to further validate an On Panel Feat.


There are three methods used during debating.


1. On Panel feats/occurrances.

2. Bio stated feats/occurrences.

3. Talking out your ass. (No proof of any kind)



On Panel > Bio > sign23


If it happened On Panel but Not in a Bio ... it Happened.

If it happened in a Bio but Not On Panel ... it Never Happened.

If it happened in both sources but they remotely contradict each other, On Panel > Bio

If it happened in both sources and they comply, You Win the debate.

Id agree with all of that.

Soljer
Originally posted by Newjak
What are you trying to say.

That we should use npthing but high feats erm

No, he's saying that we should take either the mean, median, or mode feats.

NOT the highest.

Newjak
Originally posted by Soljer
No, he's saying that we should take either the mean, median, or mode feats.

NOT the highest. I wasn't sure.

Then I guess we agree

shksprtx
My semi-Hegelian analysis is as follows:

1) Handbooks are intended as supplementary documents...they exist, as far as I understand it, to give new readers of a comic a quick reference and introduction to the character. They work on the assumption that the loyal comics fan will then go snap up every issue that character appears in to look at on-panel feats. They do often underrate characters, and do not always list some of the appropriate power stunts that a character may be capable of, but they serve quite well as a means of establishing a baseline reference for a character or team. Therefore, it would seem that on-panel feats are a much more accurate source of information on a character's true abilities.

ON THE OTHER HAND:

2) On-panel feats are subject to PIS, CIS, bad writing, jobbing, and various other distortions of a character's ability. Spiderman v. Firelord is one such case. Using average feats, rather than best feat, seems the logical approach, but try to convince your average fanboy of that. The problem arrives in establishing what is an average feat, what is a high-end/unlikely feat, and what is an example of jobbing.

For instance, in Omega Flight #1, Sasquatch gets whooped by the kings of jobbing, the Wrecking Crew. While I'll admit that the Crew seemed to be amped, they still should not have been much of a match for an angry Walter. This is CIS.

Now, in the next Sasquatch debate, someone is inevitably going to point out that Sas got beat by the Crew. Should this loss be allowed in a debate?

My contention is that it should not, since it is an example of PIS/CIS/jobbing (not sure which yet) and is thus not truly representative of the character.

SOLUTION:

Debates should draw from a well-balanced combination of handbook information and on-panel feats, and that those feats should represent the character at median levels of performance. However, room should be allowed within the debate for the discussion of extreme character feats, provided that the debator qualify them as such.

This allows for spirited debate which examines the respective characters from a much more objective and "realistic" approach, while still allowing for discussion of optimum character performance.

olympian
On Panel feats >>>>>>>>>>>> Handbooks.

So is the truth, so shall it be written.

GalacticStorm
Handbooks are only a guide to continuity, they dont dictate it. Handbook writers are sometimes just longtime members of Marvel.com, they're not necessarily Marvel highups and Marvel highups dont usually write the articles, they just OK them. How much detail do you think Marvel highups actually go into when checking the info?

On top of that Handbooks arent infallible which is why theres a facility for readers to get in touch with the writers to point out discrepancies between a writers summary of an event and what the comic states itself.

I personally use handbook as a guide, but abide by the comics. If a point you're trying to make is supported by both then youre on to a winner! smile

GalacticStorm
Originally posted by olympian
On Panel feats >>>>>>>>>>>> Handbooks.

So is the truth, so shall it be written.

yes

TricksterPriest
when you have shit like Silver Surfer being ranked below Hulk, Abomination and others, then you have to take the handbooks with a grain of salt.

Galan007
Originally posted by masterbruce
Which holds more authority and credibility for you?

In my opinion, handbooks are what the company INTENDED the character to be. Handbooks are free of PIS or CIS. Onpanel feats, while GENERALLY useful, are prone to one writer's bias or lack of knowledge taking the character beyond what they were meant to be. Well a handbook entry or bio of some kind, once stated that Superboy Prime was a greater threat than Anti-Monitor..... Yet on panel feats would suggest otherwise.


So....... confused

Evil_Ash
Originally posted by Galan007
Well a handbook entry or bio of some kind, once stated that Superboy Prime was a greater threat than Anti-Monitor..... Yet on panel feats would suggest otherwise.


So....... confused

Perhaps on panel feats doesn't mean a squat. dur

Galan007
Originally posted by Evil_Ash
Perhaps on panel feats doesn't mean a squat. dur True.


Never thought of it that way.... stick out tongue

Evil_Ash
Originally posted by Galan007
True.


Never thought of it that way.... stick out tongue

Live and learn. durfist

carver9
Some writers tends to make the characters more powerful then they should be like superman/batman book. I think that it goes like this

bio=handbooks>on panel feats.

The reason that I say this is because when you put scans up people tend to throw it out the window because they know that it dont suppose to happen. If your going by on panel feats than you think that venom>>>>>>>superman, since he did whip superman ***. You also think that Thor>>>>galactus and cannonball>>>gladiator.

Gladiator in the handbooks, almost everything on his profile is at 7 and he has proven that he earned it.
Speed, flew 100 times the speed of light.
Strength, punched a planet to dust
invulnerability, took a blast that was stated to destroy a solar system and flew out of it without any affect.
Fighting skills, been trained sense birth (but that was at a 5)
but the comic had him losing to cannonball.

Handbooks>>comics.

Juntai
Originally posted by Galan007
Well a handbook entry or bio of some kind, once stated that Superboy Prime was a greater threat than Anti-Monitor..... Yet on panel feats would suggest otherwise.


So....... confused Well with the events of Infinite Crisis, sending the multiverse in a jumble, his threat was great, maybe not his personal power, but the circumstances he created were actually very similar. Also, at the end, when he was going to OA, that was a pretty hefty threat as well.

Galan007
Originally posted by Juntai
Well with the events of Infinite Crisis, sending the multiverse in a jumble, his threat was great, maybe not his personal power, but the circumstances he created were actually very similar. Also, at the end, when he was going to OA, that was a pretty hefty threat as well. The overall events of IC may have been similar to COIE, but the threat Superboy Prime himself posed, was nowhere near the threat of Anti-Monitor IMO.

Juntai
Originally posted by Galan007
The overall events of IC may have been similar to COIE, but the threat Superboy Prime himself posed, was nowhere near the threat of Anti-Monitor IMO. but the entirety of it was pretty much a result of Superboy Prime from the start. Superboy got mad and was punching the walls of reality, causing timelines to shift and meld.. Doing this inspired Alexander Luthor to his side, Superboy broke them free of their prison...and together the duo played with the multiverse like putty, and eventually Superboy went to go collapse it all on OA.

He's not as -powerful- as Anti-Monitor, but the threat he posed was certainly up there.

Galan007
Originally posted by Juntai
but the entirety of it was pretty much a result of Superboy Prime from the start. Superboy got mad and was punching the walls of reality, causing timelines to shift and meld.. Doing this inspired Alexander Luthor to his side, Superboy broke them free of their prison...and together the duo played with the multiverse like putty, and eventually Superboy went to go collapse it all on OA.

He's not as -powerful- as Anti-Monitor, but the threat he posed was certainly up there. I don't think the events of IC left the DCU in quite as much turmoil as the events of COIE.... But that's just my opinion.


And SBP alone really didn't pose much of a threat to the Multiverse, but SBP + Alex Luthor did.


And this bio says...

"Have made him (SBP), a greater threat then Anti-Monitor ever was"...

http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/8350/scan00513zq.th.jpg


That's BS imo..... Panel feats for each individual character contradict this statement.

carver9
Originally posted by Juntai
but the entirety of it was pretty much a result of Superboy Prime from the start. Superboy got mad and was punching the walls of reality, causing timelines to shift and meld.. Doing this inspired Alexander Luthor to his side, Superboy broke them free of their prison...and together the duo played with the multiverse like putty, and eventually Superboy went to go collapse it all on OA.

He's not as -powerful- as Anti-Monitor, but the threat he posed was certainly up there.

good post

if the red sun wasnt there, he would have still been killing. The guy was practically unstoppable.

Juntai
Originally posted by Galan007
I don't think the events of IC left the DCU in quite as much turmoil as the events of COIE.... But that's just my opinion.


And SBP alone really didn't pose much of a threat to the Multiverse, but SBP + Alex Luthor did.


And this bio says...

"Have made him (SBP), a greater threat then Anti-Monitor ever was"...

http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/8350/scan00513zq.th.jpg


That's BS imo..... Panel feats for each individual character contradict this statement. I guess it's just perspective in what they meant by the statement. You seem to be taking it as feats of personal power, while I'm more refering to the threat generated as a whole and maybe not individually by his person but as a result of his actions. Because Infinite Crisis would not have happened if not for him.

masterbruce
Originally posted by Galan007


"Have made him (SBP), a greater threat then Anti-Monitor ever was"...


Greater threat does not mean more powerful.

North Korea might be a greater threat to USA, but it is not more powerful than China.

Galan007
Originally posted by Juntai
I guess it's just perspective in what they meant by the statement. You seem to be taking it as feats of personal power, while I'm more refering to the threat generated as a whole and maybe not individually by his person but as a result of his actions. Because Infinite Crisis would not have happened if not for him. I take it as feats of personal power because the bio uses the word "him", referring directly to SBP.


IMO the threat SBP himself generated was really nothing compared to the threat of AM himself.



Had Alex Luthor not been around, and it was just SBP, do you think the events of IC would have still been Multiversal?

Galan007
Originally posted by masterbruce
Greater threat does not mean more powerful. The "threat" AM posed reduced DC from a Multiverse to a Universe.

Yet this bio says SBP was a greater threat?


Nah. no

Juntai
Originally posted by Galan007
I take it as feats of personal power because the bio uses the word "him", referring directly to SBP.


IMO the threat SBP himself generated was really nothing compared to the threat of AM himself.



Had Alex Luthor not been around, and it was just SBP, do you think the events of IC would have still been Multiversal? You're just looking at it from a different viewpoint. Nothing really more to discuss than that. However, my viewpoint coincides with what it's saying, while yours is outright against it and thus you think the bio is wrong.. So who do you think is more accurately determining this?


The events of IC were easily comparable to COIE.
Anti-Monitor nearly destroyed all that was so he could remake it in his image.
Superboy was going to destroy all that was, by heading to OA.

Both nearly succeded.
Both had a wrench thrown in their plans by Flash.
Both were stopped by Superman.


It had great art, and great storytelling, and was just as fantastical and important as the original Crisis. A true homage to it's predecessor.

Galan007
Originally posted by Juntai
You're just looking at it from a different viewpoint. Nothing really more to discuss than that. However, my viewpoint coincides with what it's saying, while yours is outright against it and thus you think the bio is wrong.. So who do you think is more accurately determining this?


The events of IC were easily comparable to COIE.
Anti-Monitor nearly destroyed all that was so he could remake it in his image.
Superboy was going to destroy all that was, by heading to OA.

Both nearly succeded.
Both had a wrench thrown in their plans by Flash.
Both were stopped by Superman.


It had great art, and great storytelling, and was just as fantastical and important as the original Crisis. A true homage to it's predecessor. Agree to disagree I guess lol.


I think the overall threat posed by SBP, (along with all the other variables in the story), were very much comparable to AM's personal threat.



But if we only take the threat posed by these two individually,

I personally feel AM was the bigger threat.

Juntai
Originally posted by Galan007
Agree to disagree I guess lol.


I think the overall threat posed by SBP, (along with all the other variables in the story), were very much comparable to AM's personal threat.



But if we only take the threat posed by these two individually,

I personally feel AM was the bigger threat. I certainly agree that Anti-Monitor is more powerful than Superboy.

masterbruce
Originally posted by Galan007
Agree to disagree I guess lol.


I think the overall threat posed by SBP, (along with all the other variables in the story), were very much comparable to AM's personal threat.



But if we only take the threat posed by these two individually,

I personally feel AM was the bigger threat.

see, to me Lex Luthor is always one of Superman's greatest threats, despite the fact that individually he would be one of Superman's weakest most insignicant foes. But the fact is he could influence many things that would present great threat to Superman that even a Darkseid wouldn't.

Galan007
Originally posted by Juntai
I certainly agree that Anti-Monitor is more powerful than Superboy. Cool. smile

Galan007
Originally posted by masterbruce
see, to me Lex Luthor is always one of Superman's greatest threats, despite the fact that individually he would be one of Superman's weakest most insignicant foes. But the fact is he could influence many things that would present great threat to Superman that even a Darkseid wouldn't. Alex Luthor was FAR from an insignificant threat. erm

Evil_Ash
Originally posted by Juntai
I certainly agree that Anti-Monitor is more powerful than Superboy.

I believe he handled Pre-Crisis Superman with ease, no?

I don't see how Superboy could be any more powerful than the freakin' Anti-Monitor.

Juntai
Originally posted by Galan007
Alex Luthor was FAR from an insignificant threat. erm I think he means Lex and not Alexander.

Galan007
Originally posted by Juntai
I think he means Lex and not Alexander. Ohh, you're right. embarrasment


How the heck did Lex even get brought into this? confused

Juntai
Originally posted by Galan007
Ohh, you're right. embarrasment


How the heck did Lex even get brought into this? confused He was making an analogy using other characters about a weaker character generating a lot of threat.

Galan007
Originally posted by Juntai
He was making an analogy using other characters about a weaker character generating a lot of threat. I see.

masterbruce
Originally posted by Evil_Ash

I don't see how Superboy could be any more powerful than the freakin' Anti-Monitor.

Nobody ever said he was.

Evil_Ash
Originally posted by masterbruce
Nobody ever said he was.

No, but it was implied.

masterbruce
Originally posted by Evil_Ash
No, but it was implied.

No, it wasn't. sad

Evil_Ash
Originally posted by Juntai
I certainly agree that Anti-Monitor is more powerful than Superboy.

Juntai
Uhhh...?

masterbruce
Originally posted by Evil_Ash


I think you're taking Juntai's statement out of context. But even so, I don't see how that it implies Superboy is more powerful than Antimonitor.

Galan007
Juntai never compared the power-levels of these two, (there really is no comparison).

He simply compared the overall threat they posed to the DCU.

masterbruce
Originally posted by Galan007
Juntai never compared the power-levels of these two, (there really is no comparison).

He simply compared the overall threat they posed to the DCU.

yeah, I think Evil Ash missed the context of Juntai's post.

Crunch n Munch
Comic feats are the basis of PIS and CIS arguments. "He can do this....oh wait another time he could not".

I'd go with handbooks.

Evil_Ash
Meh, Juntai just said that he agrees that Anti-Monitor is more powerful than Superboy.

And I was pretty much agreeing and just saying that I don't see how Superboy could be anymore powerful than him...

Galan007
Originally posted by Evil_Ash
And I was pretty much agreeing and just saying that I don't see how Superboy could be anymore powerful than him... You're correct. smile


In terms of power,

AM >>> SBP

masterbruce
Originally posted by Evil_Ash
Meh, Juntai just said that he agrees that Anti-Monitor is more powerful than Superboy.

And I was pretty much agreeing and just saying that I don't see how Superboy could be anymore powerful than him...

Yeah, but you said it was IMPLIED that Superboy was more powerful than Antimonitor, and I said it was never implied.

not trying to be an ass with all this *** for tat stuff, just trying to clear things up

cool

Evil_Ash
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/ani_belly-bump.gif

masterbruce
Originally posted by Evil_Ash
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y37/Nightmareman95/ani_belly-bump.gif

eww...

Evil_Ash
Well, I've had enough of this arguing between handbooks, and on panel feats...



















I'm using comic book cover feats from now on. ermmnone

Galan007
Originally posted by Evil_Ash
I'm using comic book cover feats from now on. ermmnone shifty


Well in that case,

Vulcan pwns Gladiator:

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/979/v1le3.th.jpg





haermm

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