Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Emma's stuck in Diamond Form. (No telepathy regardless of whether she can or can't use it in this form.)

Fight#1 : Captain America doesn't have his shield.
Fight#2 : Captain America gets his shield.

Can Captain America do what Danger couldn't?

http://img178.imageshack.us/my.php?image=untitledscanned09oo2pj4.jpg

Oh and the fight takes place in a sumo wrestling sized arena surrounded with an adamantium steal cage.

er, no . . . in either fight.



course, i fail to see how she'll actually hit him if he makes an effort of trying to avoid her given her somewhat ltd h2h skills. i know she has level level of super strength, but i think the actual extent is still unknown, correct? does she have any feats to gauge her strength by?

can't see either winning this to be honest.

Originally posted by leonidas
er, no . . . in either fight.



course, i fail to see how she'll actually hit him if he makes an effort of trying to avoid her given her somewhat ltd h2h skills. i know she has level level of super strength, but i think the actual extent is still unknown, correct? does she have any feats to gauge her strength by?

can't see either winning this to be honest.

I take it you think I lost my mind?

I was skimming over the Colossus, Luke Cage vs Capt threads.

Being first and foremost a telepath makes super strength kind of redundant so she doesn't have many displays of strength.

However the thing about her, is that in her Diamond Form her mass doesn't change. So she can pretty much get flung around.

Here's an instance where she takes on Sage and Bishop. Given the circumstances she wasn't trying to kill them. She was trying to kick them out of her school. The blood eye thing is unique to the story(Elias Bogans work) and too Claremont complicated to explain. Besides the bleeding occured first in her human form and then continued on into her diamond form.

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/1639/xtremexmen22p13hgwellsux7.th.jpghttp://img297.imageshack.us/img297/9096/xtremexmen22p14hgwellsey6.th.jpghttp://img259.imageshack.us/img259/1171/xtremexmen22p15hgwellsrd5.th.jpghttp://img241.imageshack.us/img241/7895/xtremexmen22p16hgwellsmc6.th.jpg

I have more, I'll post one of her really low showings as well hold on.

Her Diamond Form is something that's very inconsistent:
Super Strength vs No Super Strength
Increased Mass vs Same Mass
Immune to Telepathy vs Able to use telepathy in that form.
Diamond Skin vs Diamond Form.
Diamond Blood vs No blood or Organs whatsoever.

so . . .

you HAVE lost your mind . . .?

Originally posted by leonidas
so . . .

you HAVE lost your mind . . .?



It's a possibility...I was just reading some of the stuff being brought up in both those previous threads, some of it didn't settle well.

Anyway here's the rest of the stuff. Warning the inconsistency is brain wrecking.

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/1082/xmes0204rr8.th.jpghttp://img82.imageshack.us/img82/6167/xmes0205ef3.th.jpghttp://img254.imageshack.us/img254/5660/page06xmen188qk1.th.jpg

Doesn't get fatigued...
http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/7023/xm15003ta3.th.jpghttp://img264.imageshack.us/img264/8751/xm15004ne3.th.jpg

Strength Stuff:

http://img252.imageshack.us/img252/4607/astonishingxmen01213bf0.th.jpghttp://img260.imageshack.us/img260/5833/blz07bc3.th.jpghttp://img398.imageshack.us/img398/5558/newxmen02514pc5.th.jpg

Other stuff:

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/8428/nxma23px9.th.jpghttp://img409.imageshack.us/img409/7508/untitledscanned11qf8.th.jpg

More other stuff:

http://img320.imageshack.us/img320/4493/xunlimitedv104210rougheyg3.th.jpghttp://img282.imageshack.us/img282/5702/xunlimitedv104211roughexc5.th.jpghttp://img338.imageshack.us/img338/4803/xunlimitedv104212rougheub5.th.jpghttp://img320.imageshack.us/img320/4531/xunlimitedv104213roughefv5.th.jpghttp://img338.imageshack.us/img338/3138/xunlimitedv104214roughemm9.th.jpg

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/3183/scan0011bq0.th.jpghttp://img258.imageshack.us/img258/6537/scan0012tq8.th.jpghttp://img161.imageshack.us/img161/6680/scan0015is5.th.jpghttp://img106.imageshack.us/img106/5729/scan0016vu7.th.jpghttp://img413.imageshack.us/img413/4100/scan0017nb5.th.jpghttp://img49.imageshack.us/img49/6267/scan0018dp7.th.jpghttp://img49.imageshack.us/img49/3186/scan0019xg5.th.jpg

http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/6692/xmenphoenixwarsong3009lo5.th.jpg

Anyway after reading all of that I want your opinion on this next scan brb:

Here's the scan:

Here's Emma getting pinned down by a women. And the women does what Danger couldn't.

http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/9558/newxmen09027ae7.th.jpg

That was after Phoenix put her back together right?

Originally posted by What If...
That was after Phoenix put her back together right?

Yep, the women managed to pin down Diamond Emma as well. And 2 issues before that Emma uses her Super Strength on Elixir.

Just noticed these scans didn't show up:

http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/1034/astonishingxmen01213ui7.th.jpghttp://img119.imageshack.us/img119/6392/blz07wz9.th.jpg

Other stuff

http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/6153/untitledscanned11bx8.th.jpghttp://img127.imageshack.us/img127/3765/nxma23ld3.th.jpg

You could have just posted a link to the respect thread?

Anyways....

"Captian Amerrika hrut NAMOR!!!11 He wtfpwzaorz Emma!!!11"

Seriously, though....if there is something special about Vibranium that bypasses Emma's form (as it appears to be in the scan you posted of the woman stabbing her), I could see Captain America's Vibranium/Steel shield doing quite a bit of damage.

Originally posted by Soljer
You could have just posted a link to the respect thread?

Anyways....

"Captian Amerrika hrut NAMOR!!!11 He wtfpwzaorz Emma!!!11"

Seriously, though....if there is something special about Vibranium that bypasses Emma's form (as it appears to be in the scan you posted of the woman stabbing her), I could see Captain America's Vibranium/Steel shield doing quite a bit of damage.

Those scans aren't in her respect thread.

Thing is, that's the argument I would use, to make this thread seem less spitish. Because I do realize Capt is the underdog here. But apparently his feats against class 80's and 100's make him a decent match.

However the validity of the scan is questionable. Since a women of the same height and build managed to pin down Emma Frost when she's exhibited super strength in her diamond form the most recent case occurred two issues before that incident in the same arc.(The Handbook places her at 5 but we all know how Handbooks work on these forums).
Also she was apparently impenetrable according to Dangers analysis which forced Danger to use black mail to take Diamond Emma down. And that's where the whole continuity thing comes into play.
I really want to know how a inconsistent low end feat like that works on these forums? When it contradicts another feat. New X-Men vs Astonishing X-Men. And even though we have 4 Super Strength instances vs 1 No Super Strength instance. We only have 1 Impenetrable instance vs 1 penetrable instance. And even then the circumstances are a bit dodgy.

Anyway if it's any consolation that blade was designed by files taken from Nimrods database.

IMO, the Vibranium blade is PSI - a team buster needed a way to take down a diamond form Emma so they threw in the blade.

Danger, on the other hand, took down Emma anyways - so rather they added the "Diamond form impenetrable" or not, the outcome would have still been the same.

I dunno, if I recall correctly, Danger wasn't made out of Vibranium, so from Danger's point of view, Emma WOULD be impenetrable.

However, I'd agree that a normal woman pinning Emma is a bit of PIS. BUT - that alone doesn't make the entire thing PIS.

One part of a feat being invalid does not necessarily question the validity of the rest of it, if you understand what I mean.

Originally posted by Soljer
I dunno, if I recall correctly, Danger wasn't made out of Vibranium, so from Danger's point of view, Emma WOULD be impenetrable.

However, I'd agree that a normal woman pinning Emma is a bit of PIS. BUT - that alone doesn't make the entire thing PIS.

One part of a feat being invalid does not necessarily question the validity of the rest of it, if you understand what I mean.

I think Danger, spending years studying the X-men, would have identified the vibranium weakness in Emma, if it was there, thus equipping herself with it, but she didn't. Which is why I believe it to be PSI.

mainly I just don't like seeing Emma having a weakness in her diamond form :P

How can you make a usefull blade using Vibranium?

Wouldn't it absorb the force of its own impact?

Originally posted by What If...
I think Danger, spending years studying the X-men, would have identified the vibranium weakness in Emma, if it was there, thus equipping herself with it, but she didn't. Which is why I believe it to be PSI.

mainly I just don't like seeing Emma having a weakness in her diamond form :P

Why do you keep saying pressure per square inch? That's twice now, .

Anyways - if Emma never encountered Vibranium before, while Danger WAS studying the X-Men, how would Danger have recognized this or cataloged it?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
How can you make a usefull blade using Vibranium?

Wouldn't it absorb the force of its own impact?

Comic books.

Shut up.

.

Originally posted by Soljer
I dunno, if I recall correctly, Danger wasn't made out of Vibranium, so from Danger's point of view, Emma WOULD be impenetrable.

However, I'd agree that a normal woman pinning Emma is a bit of PIS. BUT - that alone doesn't make the entire thing PIS.

One part of a feat being invalid does not necessarily question the validity of the rest of it, if you understand what I mean.

I understand. But since Danger(Shiar Tech) = The Danger Room and since she's able to replicate a wide array of offensive and defensive weapons with her body it could be seen as PIS since the Danger Room has replicated Wolverines claws on more then one occassion.

BTW None of the X-Men were able to break into the Danger Room when they were locked out of it because it's made from a special alloy.

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/9153/untitledscanned09qi1.jpg

Dangers also able to alter her body in this manner:

http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/7240/untitledscanned07eg2.jpg

I've read the arc. I mean, it's been a little while, but I read it just the same...

Anyways, this wouldn't be the only time that two feats conflict. It happens constantly, and if anything, it could simply be attributed to CIS on Danger's part, or ignorance on the Writer's.

All we really have to go on is that it seems that Emma CAN be pierced by Vibranium weapons. If one later bounces off her, then we can question the validity of the feat that you posted.

Since she's never successfully defended against one, it's pretty safe to assume that she can't. .

Still doesn't mean Cap wins - just that he has a chance.

Originally posted by Soljer
I've read the arc. I mean, it's been a little while, but I read it just the same...

Anyways, this wouldn't be the only time that two feats conflict. It happens constantly, and if anything, it could simply be attributed to CIS on Danger's part, or ignorance on the Writer's.

All we really have to go on is that it seems that Emma CAN be pierced by Vibranium weapons. If one later bounces off her, then we can question the validity of the feat that you posted.

Since she's never successfully defended against one, it's pretty safe to assume that she can't. .

Still doesn't mean Cap wins - just that he has a chance.

Hmm I'll go with that. But you also have to take into consideration that the weapon was especially for designed to take out Emma using Nimrods mutant database.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Hmm I'll go with that. But you also have to take into consideration that the weapon was especially for designed to take out Emma using Nimrods mutant database.

Absolutely, though, as far as we know, the only special thing about it is that it was made of Vibranium.

Because she's the Dangernaut, bi*ch?

Well, this is most probably stalemate... But since it's fight into closed area, basically cage fight, I eventually see Emma cornering Captain sinse the space for evasive maneures is too small...

Well is diamond Emma Frost more durable than Namor?

Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok I think Namor can clearly beat Cap almost every single time, but surely Cap can at least get two wins. Look at the scans below.

http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/2299/captainamerica36514od1.jpg

Its seems to me in the above scan. Cap actually KOed Namor. Namor wasnt moving so he probably was KOed. Yeah he was mindcontrolled but my point is that Cap does have the capability to KO Namor. Namor was just not fighting at full ability.

http://img234.imageshack.us/my.php?image=141ta.jpg

Namor was stunned so badly by Caps kick that Namor landed on his back. Namor has class 100 durability and superhuman reflexes but still end up on his back. Sure it didnt knock him out but still it implies that Cap could KO him.

http://img286.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamericav3048142ve.jpg
http://img286.imageshack.us/my.php?image=captainamericav3048157yg.jpg

One punch from Cap puts Namor on his back and he gets up rubbing his head. Well I cant read Namors mind maybe it hurt a little bit, maybe it hurt alot, but when somebody is usually punched to the ground and gets up rubbing their head it usually indicates that the punch was powerful.

Namor's body, as far as I know, still consists of flesh and blood- more dense that normal human's, but still flesh and blood.
Not organic diamond. Diamond body reacts a bit different... That's also the reason why it would be difficult for Captain America to KO Thing ot 616Colossus (Ultimate Colossus, AFAIK, has weak spot which is his eyes).
KOing dense foes is quite different from KOing armoured foes. The argument with Namor goes well in Cap vs Luke Cage thread, but not there.
As for pressure points... Captain is not friggin' Karnak or Mantis, neither he has Midnighter-like sensors (which didn't help Danger, by the way). Generally known pressure points are useless in Emma's case (but still valid in case of Luke, since his body is just very dense HUMAN body).

In fact, Emma in her diamond form just can't feel pain, be it physical or emotional one...while Luke or Namor are able to feel pain and be KOed by Cap.
I respect Cap, but I want some people to feel the difference!

Couldn't Cap pull the trick DD used and strike the diamond so that it shattered?

He's NOT Daredevil...He doesn't have any powers which allow him to sense weak spots in stones or metal objects, while Daredevil has his radar sense to guide him- he can sense weak spots in diamond structure.
Cap, sans PIS, plainly uncapable of repeating that feat. People, GET REAL! Captain is great, but he's no Karnak, Daredevil or Mantis. Neither he has any cybernetic sensors to fulfill that task...Don't compare a finger with a dick (no offence intended).

Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
Namor's body, as far as I know, still consists of flesh and blood- more dense that normal human's, but still flesh and blood.
Not organic diamond. Diamond body reacts a bit different...

How does it react differently both Emma and Namor are superhumanly dense.

You are stretching.

Emma CAN'T feel pain in diamond form. Namor CAN. That's the difference...
Cap can and able to hurt Namor or Cage with pressure point strikes- they both are able to feel pain. But the same can't be said about 616 Colossus or diamond Emma. Their bodies (I'm sure about Emma, but I'm not sure about Colossus) simply don't feel pain. Nothing to affect for Cap.
And Cap doesn't have any abilities that would let him to find flaw in diamond structure...No radar sense, cybernetical scanner and so on.

Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
Emma CAN'T feel pain in diamond form.

Thats because of her durability though. In other words you just think she cant feel pain because shes so durable.

She can't feel emotional pain also. Her nervous system is ALTERED and different from that of normal human\mutant.
And as for durability\pain issue... For example, you can't feel pain when striked with straw, but you'll definetely feel pain when striked with baseball bat.
Not feeling pain from attacks because they are too weak for them (like a normal human not feeling pain when striked with straw) is a bit different from not feeling pain at all...
Durability and sensitivity of one's nervous system are a bit different things, aren't they?

Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
She can't feel emotional pain also. Her nervous system is ALTERED and different from that of normal human\mutant.
And as for durability\pain issue... For example, you can't feel pain when striked with straw, but you'll definetely feel pain when striked with baseball bat.
Not feeling pain from attacks because they are too weak for them (like a normal human not feeling pain when striked with straw) is a bit different from not feeling pain at all...
Durability and sensitivity of one's nervous system are a bit different things, aren't they?

Well ok then. I'll have a look at those scans later.

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/439489_3-respect-emma-frost

The last scan on the page. Scans with Cyclops' eyebeams were already posted into than thread...

And a bit offtopic- I'm not sure about Colossus. But anyways, hitting "armoured" characters (Ult. Colossus, Thing) is a bit different from hitting charactres like Cage or Namor. So you can't put the example of victory over Namor when arguing about victory over character with "just" dense flesh where all nerves are present and active- just to lesser level that normal human ones- since due to greater strength they should feel bullets and baseball bats like we feel sand and straws.
Of course, those "armoured" characters still can be hit by top level martial artists (providing there's something to feel pain under metallic/rock/diamond hide). There's some techniques which allow them to manipulate opponent's chi (thus Gamora's pressure point strike on Thing or Iron Fist's attack on Colossus aren't totally PIS) which can be used there. But so far I haven't seen any evidense of such skills from Captain America.
I still respect him as one of the greatest fighters in Marvel, though.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well is diamond Emma Frost more durable than Namor?

Originally posted by Soljer


"Captian Amerrika hrut NAMOR!!!11 He wtfpwzaorz Emma!!!11"


Oh yeah! Who called it?

Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/439489_3-respect-emma-frost

The last scan on the page. Scans with Cyclops' eyebeams were already posted into than thread...

And a bit offtopic- I'm not sure about Colossus. But anyways, hitting "armoured" characters (Ult. Colossus, Thing) is a bit different from hitting charactres like Cage or Namor. So you can't put the example of victory over Namor when arguing about victory over character with "just" dense flesh where all nerves are present and active- just to lesser level that normal human ones- since due to greater strength they should feel bullets and baseball bats like we feel sand and straws.
Of course, those "armoured" characters still can be hit by top level martial artists (providing there's something to feel pain under metallic/rock/diamond hide). There's some techniques which allow them to manipulate opponent's chi (thus Gamora's pressure point strike on Thing or Iron Fist's attack on Colossus aren't totally PIS) which can be used there. But so far I haven't seen any evidense of such skills from Captain America.
I still respect him as one of the greatest fighters in Marvel, though.

Well at any rate I'll have to look at those scans, im a little tired now.

That Namor example is just as laughable when repeated repeatedly in very different versus threads as some Storm's fanboys' behaviour or claims of Terry Bogard's die-hard fans from "game versus" forum that Terry is a god since he defeated an avatar of Mars in non-canon anime...

Back to topic- first fight (without shield)goes to Emma- 10/10 due to the lack of spase for evasive maneures and the fact that Cap is good, but he's not cosmic level MA and doesn't have any uber chi-manipulation ability thus he can't hurt Emma by "overloading" her body with chi.
Second fight is most probably a stalemate... The reasons for that were posted somewhere above...

Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
That Namor example is just as laughable as some Storm's fanboys' behaviour or claims of Terry Bogard's die-hard fans from "game versus" forum that Terry is a god since he defeated an avatar of Mars in non-canon anime...



Well I was under the impression diamond hard was just superhuman durability.

It was false impression, my friend...Since one can be durable and still have external pressure points to affect (your thread about pressure points was pretty good, by the way), one may be durable and don't have external pressure point which are similiar to those of normal humans (Thing, Ult. Colossus- though I was under impression that both of them (I'm sure about Ult Colossus) have weak spots on outer surfase of their bodies, which are their eyes) and another one can be durable and have altered nervous system (like Diamond Emma and to lesser degree-current 616 Colossus- I'm not sure whether he belongs to type two which still can be hurt by special chi technique (proven by Iron Fist and Gamora- although her feat with Thing looks more PIS to me than IF feat where it was actually use of chi)) thus being totally impossible to be affected by pressure point attacks.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Thats because of her durability though. In other words you just think she cant feel pain because shes so durable.

She doesn't feel anything in Diamond Form. She doesn't need to eat or drink and she doesn't fatigue. She's immune to artic cold and has been unharmed by fire which also include Phoenix fire.(That's about as much as I think of)...it also offers her super strength. Oh and she's immune to telepathy and one instance she amplified her telepathy through a diamond that was created from her own DNA.(I think that's all the tricks of her Diamond Form)

But Charlotte seems to have already touched on this.

Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
It was false impression, my friend...Since one can be durable and still have external pressure points to affect (your thread about pressure points was pretty good, by the way),


What a complement...cant...take the shock...having heart attack!

Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel

one may be durable and don't have external pressure point which are similiar to those of normal humans (Thing, Ult. Colossus- though I was under impression that both of them (I'm sure about Ult Colossus) have weak spots on outer surfase of their bodies, which are their eyes) and another one can be durable and have altered nervous system (like Diamond Emma and to lesser degree-current 616 Colossus-




Well this is the thing if somebody is diamond hard. It means just that it doesnt imply that phsiology is changed until you told me.

Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel

I'm not sure whether he belongs to type two which still can be hurt by special chi technique (proven by Iron Fist and Gamora- although her feat with Thing looks more PIS to me than IF feat where it was actually use of chi)) thus being totally impossible to be affected by pressure point attacks.

Well Cap can use Chi too...anyway im not even sure if that means anything....im pretty tired....not even sure if this is relevant.

Fight One Emma breaks his face in half

Fight Two Emma chips a nail & does it again.... gawddamn she Ruthless

Cap can use chi, as any of top level martial artists... I don't deny it. I just imply that he's no friggin' Kenshiro to overload people with his chi thus fu*king up their insides (sorry for anime example). Although it's valid that he can use "strike-through-the-armour" technique on "armoured" guys like Thing- when the force of strike passes through the armour to relatively less durable internal organs and tissue...But that also requires knowledge of flaws/weak points of opponent's hide to make an impact more dangerous.

But as for Emma, her body is totally diamond with equal dense of all its parts and organs, and to add to that, she has altered nervous system. Of course, her body might have some flaws- but Captain America is unable to find them- since he doesn't have nesessary abilities to do that. And even providing that- cybernetical scanners of Danger failed on Emma, so flaw in her body is REALLY hard to find...

Originally posted by Soljer
Oh yeah! Who called it? You did. You did.

Emma survived the Genosha extinction event, where the Mega Sentinels basically obliterated the island.

Esme had to fire a diamond bullet at a sole flaw in Emma's solid diamond form in order to shatter her, after which Emma was reconstructed by Phoenix by molecular fusion, and no mention of any flaw has been made hence.

Emma doesn't eat, drink, breathe or feel in diamond form.

Emma wins.

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
You did. You did.

Emma survived the Genosha extinction event, where the Mega Sentinels basically obliterated the island.

Esme had to fire a diamond bullet at a sole flaw in Emma's solid diamond form in order to shatter her, after which Emma was reconstructed by Phoenix by molecular fusion, and no mention of any flaw has been made hence.

Emma doesn't eat, drink, breathe or feel in diamond form.

Emma wins.

you mean someone is actually questioning this . . .? :confusion:

Yes. Sadly.

Emma wins this handily.

Emma FTW!