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Battle of the strongest mutants, who wins?

Hmmm. It's really between MJJ and Hyperstorm. If MJJ is current, he's got this. Otherwise, I'm not sure.

HOM wanda was real strong too.. she wiped out over 90% of the mutants in the world in 3 words o_O

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Hmmm. It's really between MJJ and Hyperstorm. If MJJ is current, he's got this. Otherwise, I'm not sure. Isn't MJJ currently depowered?
He's not on the 198 list! - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_198

He's not even on Earth at the moment. Last we saw him, he was in the omniversal tribunal. Besides, it's not like anyone on earth could stop him before he came back, much less now with the fury.

Originally posted by Terryc250
HOM wanda was real strong too.. she wiped out over 90% of the mutants in the world in 3 words o_O

Trust me when I say this. HOM Wanda isn't shit to Mad Jim Jaspers.

MJJ takes this, SOO strong at his prime

he has weaknesses to be exploited though

Originally posted by Mider999
he has weaknesses to be exploited though

Exactly

Weakness, and it's not generally known nor can anyone here exploit it. Plus, if this is current Jaspers, he has NO weaknesses.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Weakness, and it's not generally known nor can anyone here exploit it. Plus, if this is current Jaspers, he has NO weaknesses.

Jaime Braddock can. Jaime probably merged JJ/Fury

Hyperstorm is a non factor here.


Wanda and Jaspers is a good battle.


Wanda Remade the 616 Universe and was collapsing the Omniverse subconsciously.

Jaspers Remade and became the 616 Universe,

he didn't go any further because he was stopped in time,

but it known that Jaspers would have Warped the Omniverse unchecked.


I guess the best "non-feat" of Jaspers was the realization that Merlyn,

who CAN crack or rebuild the Multiverse, was unable to stop him.


But Roma herself stated that Wanda MIGHT of been able to reach the "Ascention"

a place beyond the Omniverse ... is the ascention Heaven?

I'm not sure, but it sure alludes to the idea.




Wanda vs Jaspers = a tough call.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Hyperstorm is a non factor here.


Wanda and Jaspers is a good battle.


Wanda Remade the 616 Universe and was collapsing the Omniverse subconsciously.

Jaspers Remade and became the 616 Universe,

he didn't go any further because he was stopped in time,

but it known that Jaspers would have Warped the Omniverse unchecked.


I guess the best "non-feat" of Jaspers was the realization that Merlyn,

who CAN crack or rebuild the Multiverse, was unable to stop him.


But Roma herself stated that Wanda MIGHT of been able to reach the "Ascention"

a place beyond the Omniverse ... is the ascention Heaven?

I'm not sure, but it sure alludes to the idea.




Wanda vs Jaspers = a tough call.

Mr. M, u don't believe Hyperstorm has any chance

The crooked god takes this.

Originally posted by Mr Master
Hyperstorm is a non factor here.


Wanda and Jaspers is a good battle.


Wanda Remade the 616 Universe and was collapsing the Omniverse subconsciously.

Jaspers Remade and became the 616 Universe,

he didn't go any further because he was stopped in time,

but it known that Jaspers would have Warped the Omniverse unchecked.


I guess the best "non-feat" of Jaspers was the realization that Merlyn,

who CAN crack or rebuild the Multiverse, was unable to stop him.


But Roma herself stated that Wanda MIGHT of been able to reach the "Ascention"

a place beyond the Omniverse ... is the ascention Heaven?

I'm not sure, but it sure alludes to the idea.




Wanda vs Jaspers = a tough call.

Incorrect. Wanda remade 616 Earth as stated by Roma when she called Wandas changes a "global alteration"

Wandas "global alteration" however ripped a hole in the dimensional walls which proved a catalyst for the "Chaos Wave". Something unknowingly set off by Wanda, but not something she directly generated, maintained or controlled, therefore it and all it did are not feats of Wandas.

Jaspers also warped only 616 Earth, however given the performance of his Earth 238 counterpart and going by the word of Roma, he at least IS capable of dimension wide reality warping.

Heres a link to a debate about the Chaos Wave:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/425758_36-everything-cosmic-in-marvel-the-hierarchy-battles-feats-q-a-scans-galore


Jaspers wins imo, with Wanda coming second, Hyperstorm last.

Wandas ACTUAL feat: The warping of Earth 616 (as verified by Romas "global alteration" comment.)

Consequences of that application of power: The Chaos Wave

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Wandas ACTUAL feat: The warping of Earth 616 (as verified by Romas "global alteration" comment.)

Consequences of that application of power: The Chaos Wave

The Prodigal child returns !

*slow hand clapping*

So...where ya been

Originally posted by grey fox
The Prodigal child returns !

*slow hand clapping*

So...where ya been


Work calls im afraid.

Was away for just over a month, been back about 2 weeks.

Originally posted by guy222
Mr. M, u don't believe Hyperstorm has any chance

Not IMO.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Incorrect. Wanda remade 616 Earth as stated by Roma when she called Wandas changes a "global alteration"

Wandas "global alteration" however ripped a hole in the dimensional walls which proved a catalyst for the "Chaos Wave". Something unknowingly set off by Wanda, but not something she directly generated, maintained or controlled, therefore it and all it did are not feats of Wandas.

Jaspers also warped only 616 Earth, however given the performance of his Earth 238 counterpart and going by the word of Roma, he at least IS capable of dimension wide reality warping.

I buried this before and aim to do it again,

only furhter underground this time.

Wanda was the CAUSE of the Chaos Wave, that Roma could Not Ascertain

Wanda was Generating the Chaos Wave.


Wanda Remade the 616 Reality


http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/4126/wanad2jy7.th.jpg
"She's starting to REMAKE Reality 616... again"





Wanda was Driving the Chaos Wave into other Realities, like when it hit OtherWorld
http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/9890/w1eb1.th.jpg
"it is the End ... of ALL that is ... of ALL that will Ever be"

http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/9553/w2hq1.th.jpg




THIS SAME Chaos Wave brought back Jaspers 616 from another Plane of Reality:

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/5383/w8xw6.th.jpg




THIS SAME Chaos Wave is referred to as "Scarlet Witch's Reality Warp"

in the Official Handbook Of The Marvel Universe v5 2006.





In THREE separate Bios



1. "During the Scarlet Witch's 'House of M' Reality Warp, Jaspers Reformed alive merged with the Fury"
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/1703/w9kr2.th.jpg
(excerpt from the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe)




2. "Mad Jim Jaspers has also returned, brought back to life by the Scarlet Witch's recent Reality Warp"
http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/8717/w10rk2.th.jpg

And as I presented above, it was the Chaos Wave that manifested Jaspers 616 from another Plane. (he was dead)




3. Wanda gave Layla the power to "Perceive Divergent Realities"
http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/5967/w10ej7.th.jpg

"Layla showed Cage glimpses of his life prior to the Scarlet Witch's Reality Warp"

"We are witnessing a Trans-Temporal Tsunami, ORIGINATING from Earth 616

apparently there has been a Alteration of global proportions that has Breached the Walls of Causality"

http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/7540/sc7qm2.th.jpg

there's a "Breach in the Walls of Causality"...

that was caused by a "global Alteration" ...

and there's a "Trans-Temporal Tsunami" going through the "Breach" into other Realities ...



The "Trans-Temporal Tsunami" is the Chaos Wave,



Now what's Causing that?


Roma has no idea what's CAUSING that, as she continues to say,

"the Localized Effects are so Severe, I am UNABLE to Ascertain the Cause"
http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/979/62157068rw3.th.jpg

Hence the OHOTMU 2006, telling us it was the "Scarlet Witch's Reality Warp"



The "Trans-Temporal Tsunami" is coming from the 616 Reality,

guess what's happening in the 616 Reality?


"Scarlet Witch's Reality Warp"

More conclusive PROOF that the Chaos Wave was Wanda's Power.


(from the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe 2006 Saturnyne bio)
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/748/w1ka9.th.jpg
"She (Saturnyne) was later present on Otherworld when Dimension-616

was Engulfed in the Scarlet Witch's Reality Warp ...


Saturnyne showed little hesitation in suggesting destroying 616 to Prevent the Warp SPREADING"




Here is that scene On Panel,



Satynyne talking about the Chaos Wave or as the Official Bio puts it,

the Scarlet Witch's Reality Warp:

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/223/15473921vq0.th.jpg
"Your Dimension is a Cancer, bringing Devastation to Branes ALL ALONG the SIDEREAL STRING ...

Sparing Yours condemns the REST"





"If the breach is not sealed, the Chaos Wave will continue to expand,

perhaps to the ASCENTION itself"

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/9752/sc8bk1.th.jpg





Roma threatens to erase the 616 UNIVERSE in 48 hours,

if Captain Britain and company can't seal the (Chaos Wave) breach:

http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/4218/sc9vq6.th.jpg

Scarlet Witch's Reality Warp

HoM Wanda Aftershock




With the line "No More mutants",

Wanda managed to shift Reality causing cracks across "ALL" Realities.

Allowing the Shadow King to slip back into the 616 universe.

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/3397/newexcalibur08page20ra5.th.jpg






Balasco from his Realm sees Two siblings (Magneto & Wanda)

"Force ALL of Reality to CHANGE"

http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/2091/newxmenkryptoniawezz037vi5.th.jpg






"She changed the World once huh?"

"Yes, ... but She Altered ALL of Reality"

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/8204/wandainmsmlq7.th.jpg

Thanks to your habit of reposting all i need do is post a link to your own thread in which i swatted aside a virtually identical Wanda HOM argument quite thoroughly:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/425758_36-everything-cosmic-in-marvel-the-hierarchy-battles-feats-q-a-scans-galore

On top of that saying "all of reality" is an ambiguous, inconclusive statement and unless defined by conclusive art or further description cant be used as conclusive evidence to prove your point, when it itself is inconclusive.

All of reality for what? Wheres teh defined scale. We know she didnt warp the entire multiverse, yet the lines so ambiguous someone without knowledge of the event could interpret it so.

All of the universe? That line can be interpreted so and yet no scale is determined so that too is not definitive and still a possibility.

All of Earths reality? Another possibility as the sentence has no scale, however when you look through continuity you can also see that the scale of the warp has been defined and various times on panel:

Uncanny X-men 462

Romas "global alteration"

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/29018233635.jpg

Exiles 70

"The WORLD burned white. Welcome to House of M"

"Earth 616 has been transformed while they were away"

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/2/4914182984.jpg

Exiles 72

"The House of M reality has once again been revised. The Exiles were forced to withdraw leaving Beak and Angel to face, whatever fate has befallen EARTH 616"

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/2/4914224436.jpg


Uncanny X-men 475:

"The Scarlet Witch lost her mind and used her mutant power to alter reality transforming the WORLD"


http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/2/4913453063.jpg


Scale of the warp is defined as global and of being confined to the world, earth 616. No ambiguous open to interpretation "she transformed reality", "she did this to all reality" BULLSH*T

Show me a scan saying that she transformed the entire universe into House of M or this is pretty much done and dusted.

Anyone interested in seeing the "Wanda warped the entire universe and made the chaos wave which messed up all the multiverse idea" shot down in flames, please visit this thread:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/425758_36-everything-cosmic-in-marvel-the-hierarchy-battles-feats-q-a-scans-galore

Thank you

You made your point and I made mine.


You used the back of the front page of three Comics as proof,

plus one quote from Roma that I easily explained away up top.



I used plenty of On Panel art and character statements,

and SEVERAL Official Marvel Handbook Bios to make my case.


Let the onlookers decide.

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/3397/newexcalibur08page20ra5.jpg

This scan seals the deal. How else did the Shadow King get back into Reality 616.

Originally posted by Mr Master
You made your point and I made mine.


You used the back of the front page of three Comics as proof,

plus one quote from Roma that I easily explained away up top.



I used plenty of On Panel art and character statements,

and SEVERAL Official Marvel Handbook Bios to make my case.


Let the onlookers decide.

All of your statements were ambiguous and open to interpretation, not one of them mentioned the scale of the warp, my evidence defines it as global, restricts it to Earth 616. That plus the fact that on panel, we only ever saw her warp Earth 616 says alot

Please find some evidence actually defining the scale, or give it a rest kid

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/3397/newexcalibur08page20ra5.jpg

This scan seals the deal. How else did the Shadow King get back into Reality 616.




But don't bother,

because if it threatens the Phoenix's status,

GS will demean it.

GS, one huge problem with your interpretation. If it was just earth 616, why is Mad Jim Jaspers back, and merged with the fury? hmm

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/3397/newexcalibur08page20ra5.jpg

This scan seals the deal. How else did the Shadow King get back into Reality 616.

To play devil's advocate the spatial size of the warp may have been planet sized but cross into various dimensions.

Also a fracture in one reality must lead somewhere so a fracture in 616 could easily have lead to the place SK was sealed.

But that doesn't explain why MJJ is back.

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/3397/newexcalibur08page20ra5.jpg

This scan seals the deal. How else did the Shadow King get back into Reality 616.

By a crack formed in reality as a result of Wanda warping Earth 616. Simple as.

Roma and the handbooks stated Jaspers only actually warped the planet and yet the affects of that action were felt by the whole of reality.

In numerous scans ive posted, the scale of the warp is actually defined. It was global.

This scan and all of Mr Masters just show that there were bigger than global consequences.

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
GS, one huge problem with your interpretation. If it was just earth 616, why is Mad Jim Jaspers back, and merged with the fury? hmm

The warping of Earth caused a dimensional tear in the dimensional walls which separate realities. This resulted in the chas wave. The Chaos Wave spun out of control and and reached Otherworld.

The Chaos Wave was something the warping set off, its not something Wanda directly created, but something her power proved a catalyst for.

Whats being debated here is the scale of the reality warp. How far did Wanda extend the HOM reality. That was the actual feat and the answer to that question is Earth 616.

Originally posted by Mr Master



But don't bother,

because if it threatens the Phoenix's status,

GS will demean it.

Phoenixes feats threaten Beyonders status which is why for the past year you've made it your goal to lower it as far down in the hierarchy as you can, by hyping up the feats of others.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
To play devil's advocate the spatial size of the warp may have been planet sized but cross into various dimensions.

Also a fracture in one reality must lead somewhere so a fracture in 616 could easily have lead to the place SK was sealed.

You're smart. We need to debate sometime.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
By a crack formed in reality as a result of Wanda warping Earth 616. Simple as.

Roma and the handbooks stated Jaspers only actually warped the planet and yet the affects of that action were felt by the whole of reality.

This is absolute bull shit

Jaspers Warped the 616 Universe, On Panel and in the Bios.


Originally posted by GalacticStorm
In numerous scans ive posted, the scale of the warp is actually defined. It was global.

So my NUMEROUS Scans stating and depicting Wanda Warping the 616 Reality

or ALL of Reality are inconsequetial,


and your ONE On Panel Scan that was explained away says it all.


I'm not going to count your 3 Scans of the back of Covers.


Originally posted by GalacticStorm
This scan and all of Mr Masters just show that there were bigger than global consequences.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The warping of Earth caused a dimensional tear in the dimensional walls which separate realities. This resulted in the chas wave. The Chaos Wave spun out of control and and reached Otherworld.

The Chaos Wave was something the warping set off, its not something Wanda directly created, but something her power proved a catalyst for.

Whats being debated here is the scal eof the reality warp. How far did Wanda extend the HOM reality. That was the actual feat and the answer to that question is Earth 616.

You're so full of shit duke.

This proves you're not debating,

just carrying out an AGENDA.


I just posted an insurmountable amount of evidence that directly states,

Wanda generated and fueled the Chaos Wave with HER OWN Power.


To what lengths you'l go.

Jaspers was created by the Chaos Wave. It eroded the dimensional walls within Otherworld causing all reality, all order within to not make sense, to become chaotic. As such amid that chaos a Fury/Jaspers merge was created.

Not through Wandas doing, but through the Chaos Wave she unwittingly set off by creating a dimensional tear by accident as she warped reality and brought about House of M on Earth as stated.

Sorry GS, but you just killed your credibility by trying to downgrade Jaspers.

A load of ambiguous references mean nothing because they could just as well be illustrating my interpretation as they could yours. You need to learn and accept that when things are open to interpretation you have no authority here to wade in and proclaim yours as the gospel truth to be regarded above all others, especially when you are not backed by any conclusive, scale defining statements.

Your ambiguous references can be interpreted as i have plus on top of that i have many scans actually defining the scale of the warp as GLOBAL.

Find some saying UNIVERSAL and you'll have a case. Until then keep on trying son!

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Sorry GS, but you just killed your credibility by trying to downgrade Jaspers.




"You're smart, we should debate sometime"


Isn't that the most condenscending crock of shit you ever seen?



If you agree with him you're smart,

if you disagree, you're an ignorant child or one of Mr M's cronies.

Truly "ambiguous" yall:






Wanda was the CAUSE of the Chaos Wave, that Roma could Not Ascertain

Wanda was Generating the Chaos Wave.


Wanda Remade the 616 Reality


http://img50.imageshack.us/img50/4126/wanad2jy7.th.jpg
"She's starting to REMAKE Reality 616... again"





Wanda was Driving the Chaos Wave into other Realities, like when it hit OtherWorld
http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/9890/w1eb1.th.jpg
"it is the End ... of ALL that is ... of ALL that will Ever be"

http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/9553/w2hq1.th.jpg




THIS SAME Chaos Wave brought back Jaspers 616 from another Plane of Reality:

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/5383/w8xw6.th.jpg




THIS SAME Chaos Wave is referred to as "Scarlet Witch's Reality Warp"

in the Official Handbook Of The Marvel Universe v5 2006.





In THREE separate Bios



1. "During the Scarlet Witch's 'House of M' Reality Warp, Jaspers Reformed alive merged with the Fury"
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/1703/w9kr2.th.jpg
(excerpt from the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe)




2. "Mad Jim Jaspers has also returned, brought back to life by the Scarlet Witch's recent Reality Warp"
http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/8717/w10rk2.th.jpg

And as I presented above, it was the Chaos Wave that manifested Jaspers 616 from another Plane. (he was dead)




3. Wanda gave Layla the power to "Perceive Divergent Realities"
http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/5967/w10ej7.th.jpg

"Layla showed Cage glimpses of his life prior to the Scarlet Witch's Reality Warp"

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Jaspers was created by the Chaos Wave. It eroded the dimensional walls within Otherworld causing all reality, all order within to not make sense, to become chaotic. As such amid that chaos a Fury/Jaspers merge was created.

Not through Wandas doing, but through the Chaos Wave she unwittingly set off by creating a dimensional tear by accident as she warped reality and brought about House of M on Earth as stated.

Wanda wins

More "ambiguous" scans yall:




More conclusive PROOF that the Chaos Wave was Wanda's Power.


(from the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe 2006 Saturnyne bio)
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/748/w1ka9.th.jpg
"She (Saturnyne) was later present on Otherworld when Dimension-616

was Engulfed in the Scarlet Witch's Reality Warp ...


Saturnyne showed little hesitation in suggesting destroying 616 to Prevent the Warp SPREADING"




Here is that scene On Panel,



Satynyne talking about the Chaos Wave or as the Official Bio puts it,

the Scarlet Witch's Reality Warp:

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/223/15473921vq0.th.jpg
"Your Dimension is a Cancer, bringing Devastation to Branes ALL ALONG the SIDEREAL STRING ...

Sparing Yours condemns the REST"




Scarlet Witch's Reality Warp


hum

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Sorry GS, but you just killed your credibility by trying to downgrade Jaspers.

I bet you didnt know that Roma and Captain Britain refer to Jaspers' warp as just being global did you?

I bet you didnt know the handbooks state that Jaspers warp was only global did you?

Look into matters yourself, dont just swallow what you're told is happening in scans.

Originally posted by Mr Master



"You're smart, we should debate sometime"


Isn't that the most condenscending crock of shit you ever seen?



If you agree with him you're smart,

if you disagree, you're an ignorant child or one of Mr M's cronies.




I commended him for a good post and said we should debate. Not condescending at all. Stop trying to make something out of nothing in an attempt to turn the tide. Do that through debating.

Not the case at all.

She says theres a trans temporal tsunami and then goes on to say APPARENTLY there was an alteration:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/29018233635.jpg

apparently
A adverb
1 obviously, evidently, manifestly, patently, apparently, plainly

http://www.wordreference.com/definition/apparently

i.e theres a trans temporal tsunami, so quite clearly there has been an alteration thats breached the dimensional walls.


Romas said she couldnt ascertain the cause of the global alteration. She said nothing about not knowing what caused the wave. She says the wave was clearly caused by the alteration breaching the dimensional walls.

The Chaos Wave was nothing but Wandas reality warp seeping through the breach and reacting with the reality beyond, thats what caused it. That is why the future "Exiles" were told to end the problem, the breach needed to be sealed or the affected reality (Earth 616) would have to be destroyed to stop the warped effects Wanda had put in place from seeping through.

Wandas application of power to 616 changed reality to her wishes. She bended the rules of reality to manifest a desired effect. Since when was Wandas reality warping within 616 shown as a reality collapsing wave of destruction?

Did the chaos wave go around to other realities converting them to Wandas HOM vision or was it something she started which unbeknownst to her spun out of control with no exertion, maintenance or even awareness from her?


A reality warp is an area of space/time where a reality manipulator has manipulated the laws of causality to bring about their wishes. When Wanda accidentally tore a hole in the dimensional wall of 616 this area of warped reality spilled through and reacted with the reality beyond, sparking off the chaos wave. Wandas reality warp spilling through and out of control without her knowledge and without her powering or maintaining it.

Its like Storm creating a strong wind in a localized area for a specific effect and then not bothering to monitor it. The weather pattern expands without Storm there to determines its path and then it builds up power becoming a tornado, thereby transforming into something different than what Storm manifested, destroying land and buildings for miles around and beyond the localized area Storm had created it within. Unless Storm on panel had shown she could create such a tornado and use it in the way it performed without her involvement then such a tornado couldnt be used in versus matches as if it was part of her repertoire and it certainly couldnt be described as a direct manifestation of her power when what it was in the beginning when she was monitoring and controlling things was of a totally different nature and had a totally different effect within her localized area than it had on the surrounding environment it destroyed.

I think you get my drift.

"She's starting to REMAKE Reality 616... again"

http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/7489/25824670nb5.th.jpg




(from the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe 2006 Saturnyne bio)
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/748/w1ka9.th.jpg

"She (Saturnyne) was later present on Otherworld when Dimension-616

was Engulfed in the Scarlet Witch's Reality Warp ...





Here is that scene On Panel,



Satynyne talking about the Chaos Wave or as the Official Bio puts it,

the Scarlet Witch's Reality Warp:

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/223/15473921vq0.th.jpg
"Your Dimension is a Cancer, bringing Devastation to Branes ALL ALONG the SIDEREAL STRING ...

Sparing Yours condemns the REST"





thankyou


Nuff said.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
By a crack formed in reality as a result of Wanda warping Earth 616. Simple as.

Roma and the handbooks stated Jaspers only actually warped the planet and yet the affects of that action were felt by the whole of reality.

In numerous scans ive posted, the scale of the warp is actually defined. It was global.

This scan and all of Mr Masters just show that there were bigger than global consequences.

Actually I believe you both may be right.
Wanda warped reality twice.

The first time she did it, she may have just altered it on a global scale. Causing a trans-dimensional tsunami that threatened the omniverse.(That would prove GS's point) It eventually engulfed 616.

After the "No More mutants" fiasco she remade it a second time. This time from Mr Masters scans she warped/remade 616 and formed cracks across all of realities which allowed Shadow King back in.

The chaos wave which leaked across into other dimensions is referred to as the Scarlet Witchs reality warp because she was the one responsible for it, it was her actions which brought it about. That is made clear on panel. The fact that it is referred to as the Scarlet Witchs reality warp in the bios IS NOT evidence that she generated it directly or that she controlled it when ON PANEL she has no knowledge of it, makes no mention of it and its actually stated it was caused by a dimensional tear. The handbooks complement what occurs on panel, they are not a substitute for an on panel account. On panel you are completely unsupported. As such you or anyone are completely unjustified in presenting it as something that is within her repertoire to just conjure up to use as a weapon.


As stated by Roma the wave was caused by the dimensional tear:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/29018233635.jpg

apparently
A adverb
1 obviously, evidently, manifestly, patently, apparently, plainly

http://www.wordreference.com/definition/apparently

i.e theres a trans temporal tsunami, so quite clearly there has been an alteration thats breached the dimensional walls.

She gives the reason for the chaos waves existence as being the dimensional tear that the Scarlet Witch unknowingly caused.

NOWHERE in the House of M main title is the chaos wave mentioned. In no comic title ever or any official publication ever is the Scarlet Witch shown to have directly generated, let alone controlled the dimensional wall eroding phenomenon that was the chaos wave.

NOWHERE in 616 is the Scarlet Witchs reality warping powers shown to manifest as a dimensional wall eroding anomaly. In 616 her powers allowed her to reshape the Earth to fit her vision. The chaos wave didnt alter causalitys laws to bring about someones vision, it eroded dimensional walls causing the reality within to collapse into chaos, causing nothing to make sense:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/2/4911350329.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/2/4911594096.jpg

The wave was of a different nature to the Scarlet Witchs manifestation of power in 616 and it had a different effect on reality.

Unless you can show a chaos wave-like manifestation in 616 during house of M generated by Wanda which did the same things as the chaos wave and was of the same scale, then you are once again completely unjustified in presenting the wave as something Wanda is capable of generating directly and controlling when:

a) Its of a different nature to her manifestations of power in 616 and had different affects

b) Its not mentioned in any Marvel publication as being directly generated or controlled by Wanda ( The Chaos Wave being called Wandas reality warp in a handbook as aforementioned is insufficient as it can simply be referring to the fact that she brought it about which IS the case)


c) Roma the omniversal guardian actually states that the Chaos Wave was clearly the result of a global alteration ripping a hole in 616's dimensional wall.

With all that in mind whilst the wave was brought about by Scarlet Witch as a side effect of her reality warping in 616 as illustrated clearly by Roma, there is no evidence on panel that she could generate the wave at will to use as a weapon. Also even if she could the wave was only a threat if it was allowed to run riot. If confronted it could easily be stopped by merely closing the dimensional tear that spawned the wave:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/29018360540.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/29018360515.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/29018360544.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/29018360620.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/29018360684.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/29018360657.jpg

As such wielding the wave certainly doesnt make someone above the abstracts as when confronted directly it takes far less than abstract level power to stop it and it certainly doesnt make Wanda beyond the abstracts not only for that reason, but also because theres no evidence she generated it directly or controlled it anyway.

sign23



The FACTS!



"She's starting to REMAKE Reality 616... again"
http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/7489/25824670nb5.th.jpg





With the line "No More mutants",

Wanda managed to shift Reality causing cracks across "ALL" Realities.

Allowing the Shadow King to slip back into the 616 universe.

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/3397/newexcalibur08page20ra5.th.jpg






Balasco from his Realm sees Two siblings (Magneto & Wanda)

"Force ALL of Reality to CHANGE"

http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/2091/newxmenkryptoniawezz037vi5.th.jpg






"She changed the World once huh?"

"Yes, ... but She Altered ALL of Reality"

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/8204/wandainmsmlq7.th.jpg

Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Actually I believe you both may be right.
Wanda warped reality twice.

The first time she did it, she may have just altered it on a global scale. Causing a trans-dimensional tsunami that threatened the omniverse.(That would prove GS's point)

After the "No More mutants" fiasco she remade it a second time. This time from Mr Masters scans she warped/remade 616 and formed cracks across all of realities which allowed Shadow King back in.

The second time she warped reality is in reference to the "No More Mutants" event. That was her warping reality for the second time, ending house of M but reverting reality to its previous status with the exception of a dramatically reduced mutant population.

Still valid.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
All of your statements were ambiguous and open to interpretation, not one of them mentioned the scale of the warp, my evidence defines it as global, restricts it to Earth 616. That plus the fact that on panel, we only ever saw her warp Earth 616 says alot

Please find some evidence actually defining the scale, or give it a rest kid

"She's starting to REMAKE Reality 616... again"

http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/7489/25824670nb5.th.jpg





(from the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe 2006 Saturnyne bio)
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/748/w1ka9.th.jpg

"She (Saturnyne) was later present on Otherworld when Dimension-616

was Engulfed in the Scarlet Witch's Reality Warp ...







Here is that scene On Panel,




Satynyne talking about the Chaos Wave or as the Official Bio puts it,

the Scarlet Witch's Reality Warp:

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/223/15473921vq0.th.jpg
"Your Dimension is a Cancer, bringing Devastation to Branes ALL ALONG the SIDEREAL STRING ...

Sparing Yours condemns the REST"






There's NO getting around this, agenda man.

Originally posted by LORDSIDIOUS01
Wanda wins

The last big post of mine deals with that. You are a notorious reposter im afraid, so all i had to do was go to the thread where you posted a virtually identical argument and then i just quoted myself.

You never did counter my points back then. Back then, just like you are now you just repost the same argument again. Youre missing a step mate.

The argument is over the scale of Wandas HOM reality warp. Ive posted scans stating point blank it was global.

The opposition has posted scans with ambiguous statements which can be interpreted to favour either of our arguments. On top of that he unfortunately has no on panel scan whatsoever which actually defines the scale of the warp as anything but global.

Thats enough for today.

Nite nite folks.

Wanda and Jaspers both seem to have warped reality on a greater scale than global....

Meh.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The opposition has posted scans with ambiguous statements which can be interpreted to favour either of our arguments. On top of that he unfortunately has no on panel scan whatsoever which actually defines the scale of the warp as anything but global.

"ambiguous?"




"She's starting to REMAKE Reality 616... again"

http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/7489/25824670nb5.th.jpg





(from the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe 2006 Saturnyne bio)
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/748/w1ka9.th.jpg

"She (Saturnyne) was later present on Otherworld when Dimension-616

was Engulfed in the Scarlet Witch's Reality Warp ...






You have to force your eyes to read something other than,

when Dimension-616

was Engulfed in the Scarlet Witch's Reality Warp

More "ambiguity" yall:






Wanda was the CAUSE of the Chaos Wave, that Roma could Not Ascertain

Wanda was Generating the Chaos Wave.







Wanda was Driving the Chaos Wave into other Realities, like when it hit OtherWorld:

http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/9890/w1eb1.th.jpg
"it is the End ... of ALL that is ... of ALL that will Ever be"

http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/9553/w2hq1.th.jpg





THIS SAME Chaos Wave brought back Jaspers 616 from another Plane of Reality:

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/5383/w8xw6.th.jpg





THIS SAME Chaos Wave is referred to as "Scarlet Witch's Reality Warp"

in the Official Handbook Of The Marvel Universe v5 2006.





In THREE separate Bios



1. "During the Scarlet Witch's 'House of M' Reality Warp, Jaspers Reformed alive merged with the Fury"
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/1703/w9kr2.th.jpg
(excerpt from the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe)




2. "Mad Jim Jaspers has also returned, brought back to life by the Scarlet Witch's recent Reality Warp"
http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/8717/w10rk2.th.jpg

And as I presented above, it was the Chaos Wave that manifested Jaspers 616 from another Plane. (he was dead)




3. Wanda gave Layla the power to "Perceive Divergent Realities"
http://img394.imageshack.us/img394/5967/w10ej7.th.jpg

"Layla showed Cage glimpses of his life prior to the Scarlet Witch's Reality Warp"





I ask myself the same thing yall,

where's the ambiguity? shrug

And yet still more "ambiguous" blah blah blah ...




"She's starting to REMAKE Reality 616... again"
http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/7489/25824670nb5.th.jpg






With the line "No More mutants",

Wanda managed to shift Reality causing cracks across "ALL" Realities.

Allowing the Shadow King to slip back into the 616 universe.

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/3397/newexcalibur08page20ra5.th.jpg






Balasco from his Realm sees Two siblings (Magneto & Wanda)

"Force ALL of Reality to CHANGE"

http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/2091/newxmenkryptoniawezz037vi5.th.jpg






"She changed the World once huh?"

"Yes, ... but She Altered ALL of Reality"

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/8204/wandainmsmlq7.th.jpg


dontgetit

Originally posted by TricksterPriest
Sorry GS,

but you just killed your credibility by trying to downgrade Jaspers.

Originally posted by LORDSIDIOUS01
Wanda wins

I can see her or Jaspers taking it.



Originally posted by Soljer
Wanda and Jaspers both seem to have warped reality on a greater scale than global....

Meh.

good job mr m thumbup1 theres no doubt wanda warped the universe

..

Originally posted by Mr Master
"ambiguous?"




"She's starting to REMAKE Reality 616... again"

http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/7489/25824670nb5.th.jpg

In those same Exiles issues it was stated as i've shown that the amount of reality 616 that she warped was actually just the Earth.

Exiles 72

"The House of M reality has once again been revised. The Exiles were forced to withdraw leaving Beak and Angel to face, whatever fate has befallen EARTH 616"

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/2/4914224436.jpg


This global scale reference came AFTER your scan and it highlights how ambiguous your "reality 616" quote is. The amount of reality 616 isnt defined in your scan from Exiles 71. It is a statement open to interpretation, understand that. My scan from Exiles 72 verifies what interpretation is correct, she directly applied GLOBAL changes.







Originally posted by Mr Master
(from the Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe 2006 Saturnyne bio)
http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/748/w1ka9.th.jpg

"She (Saturnyne) was later present on Otherworld when Dimension-616

was Engulfed in the Scarlet Witch's Reality Warp ...

Reality 616 was engulfed by Wandas reality warp. Its just a shame for your argument that it was only Earth 616 as defined by the Exiles comics your scans come from and by Roma the omniversal guardian with her reference to a "global alteration" That same instance is the one the handbook refers to when it says "dimension 616 was engulfed" and on panel, the reality warp was stated to be global. Your evidence provides the locale, mine the scale directly affected.



Originally posted by Mr Master
You have to force your eyes to read something other than,

when Dimension-616

was Engulfed in the Scarlet Witch's Reality Warp





Dealt with.

Originally posted by Smoki
good job mr m thumbup1 theres no doubt wanda warped the universe

So says Mr M.

Valid as ever

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The chaos wave which leaked across into other dimensions is referred to as the Scarlet Witchs reality warp because she was the one responsible for it, it was her actions which brought it about. That is made clear on panel. The fact that it is referred to as the Scarlet Witchs reality warp in the bios IS NOT evidence that she generated it directly or that she controlled it when ON PANEL she has no knowledge of it, makes no mention of it and its actually stated it was caused by a dimensional tear. The handbooks complement what occurs on panel, they are not a substitute for an on panel account. On panel you are completely unsupported. As such you or anyone are completely unjustified in presenting it as something that is within her repertoire to just conjure up to use as a weapon.


As stated by Roma the wave was caused by the dimensional tear:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/29018233635.jpg

apparently
A adverb
1 obviously, evidently, manifestly, patently, apparently, plainly

http://www.wordreference.com/definition/apparently

i.e theres a trans temporal tsunami, so quite clearly there has been an alteration thats breached the dimensional walls.

She gives the reason for the chaos waves existence as being the dimensional tear that the Scarlet Witch unknowingly caused.

NOWHERE in the House of M main title is the chaos wave mentioned. In no comic title ever or any official publication ever is the Scarlet Witch shown to have directly generated, let alone controlled the dimensional wall eroding phenomenon that was the chaos wave.

NOWHERE in 616 is the Scarlet Witchs reality warping powers shown to manifest as a dimensional wall eroding anomaly. In 616 her powers allowed her to reshape the Earth to fit her vision. The chaos wave didnt alter causalitys laws to bring about someones vision, it eroded dimensional walls causing the reality within to collapse into chaos, causing nothing to make sense:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/2/4911350329.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/2/4911594096.jpg

The wave was of a different nature to the Scarlet Witchs manifestation of power in 616 and it had a different effect on reality.

Unless you can show a chaos wave-like manifestation in 616 during house of M generated by Wanda which did the same things as the chaos wave and was of the same scale, then you are once again completely unjustified in presenting the wave as something Wanda is capable of generating directly and controlling when:

a) Its of a different nature to her manifestations of power in 616 and had different affects

b) Its not mentioned in any Marvel publication as being directly generated or controlled by Wanda ( The Chaos Wave being called Wandas reality warp in a handbook as aforementioned is insufficient as it can simply be referring to the fact that she brought it about which IS the case)


c) Roma the omniversal guardian actually states that the Chaos Wave was clearly the result of a global alteration ripping a hole in 616's dimensional wall.

With all that in mind whilst the wave was brought about by Scarlet Witch as a side effect of her reality warping in 616 as illustrated clearly by Roma, there is no evidence on panel that she could generate the wave at will to use as a weapon. Also even if she could the wave was only a threat if it was allowed to run riot. If confronted it could easily be stopped by merely closing the dimensional tear that spawned the wave:

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/29018360540.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/29018360515.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/29018360544.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/29018360620.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/29018360684.jpg

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/29018360657.jpg

As such wielding the wave certainly doesnt make someone above the abstracts as when confronted directly it takes far less than abstract level power to stop it and it certainly doesnt make Wanda beyond the abstracts not only for that reason, but also because theres no evidence she generated it directly or controlled it anyway.

Originally posted by Soljer
Wanda and Jaspers both seem to have warped reality on a greater scale than global....

Meh.

On the surface it does, i agree completely. But when you throughly analyse the situation and you see that the HOM reality was restricted to Earth as stated and as far as we saw on panel, plus the fact that the Chaos Wave while being responsible for its emergence, wasnt actually a direct creation of Wandas, it all adds up to global.

The only scale defining references on panel state that the House of M reality was global. Alongside that you have ambiguous comments such as Wanda warped reality 616, Wandas warp engulfed 616. Those comments are all true, however they are open to interpretation and can be interpreted to support my argument. The opposition has no reference on panel whatsoever marking out the House of M reality warp to be anything but global.

Jaspers beats Wanda in my opinion, he effortlessly warped the globe, Wanda seemed less in control. Wanda hasnt been regarded on panel as a dimensional scale reality warper, Jaspers has. While that last point is inconclusive as it is just character opinion based on the prowess of an alternate universe counterpart (Jaspers 238) it helps to shape my opinion on the matter.

Jaspers, then Wanda, the Hyperstorm.