Spear of Destiny VS Lucifer Morningstar

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Goddess Kali
If someone like Thanos, Spectre, Micheal, Silver Surfer, Superman, etc...or anyone....


Got hold of the Spear of Destiny and impaled Lucifer Morningstar with it....would Lucifer cease to exist ? Die once and be reborn ?


What would happen ?

Galan007
Lucifer would be perma-killed, .

guy222
bumprav

Glorificus
Originally posted by Galan007
Lucifer would be perma-killed, .

So at that point, Death of the Endless would come and collect him?
She would have "power" over him, at that point?

guy222
happy holidays

leonidas
Originally posted by Glorificus
So at that point, Death of the Endless would come and collect him?
She would have "power" over him, at that point?

even when he was mostly dead, death had no power over him so even if he were to be killed permanently, i have doubts that death would have 'power' over him. doesn't mean she wouldn't guide where he was supposed to go i guess.

TheGodKiller
Originally posted by leonidas
even when he was mostly dead, death had no power over him so even if he were to be killed permanently, i have doubts that death would have 'power' over him. doesn't mean she wouldn't guide where he was supposed to go i guess.
And yet in that very instance, as Death indicated to him using that Itallian movie as an analogy, trying to pull himself back together would have pushed him "over the edge".

And there's also the instance(several issues later) when after Yahweh left Creation, and Lucifer along with the now demiurgic and blind Elaine, returned to Hell to secure their alliance in order to defeat Lilith and Sandolphon's forces, Lucifer admitted that Death would take them all.

While Death and Lucifer's conversation tells us one thing, the actual showings in the series itself, say something else.

cdtm
The spear usually affects Spectre, because of anti magic properties.. Lucifer's not Spectre, though.

Any reason to think it could affect him?

TheGodKiller
Originally posted by cdtm
The spear usually affects Spectre, because of anti magic properties.. Lucifer's not Spectre, though.

Any reason to think it could affect him?
Dunno whether this is relevant or not but Lucifer himself has been affected by magic before. It was Izanami's poisoning of his feathers, although the effect was gradual and took full effect during Lucifer's confrontation with the Basanos.

kevdude
I would think Lucifer would die. The comic seems to indicate that Death and Destiny have some influence over Lucifer and Michael, if there could be anyone in the DCU that ever could save The Presence himself.

leonidas
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
And yet in that very instance, as Death indicated to him using that Itallian movie as an analogy, trying to pull himself back together would have pushed him "over the edge".

And there's also the instance(several issues later) when after Yahweh left Creation, and Lucifer along with the now demiurgic and blind Elaine, returned to Hell to secure their alliance in order to defeat Lilith and Sandolphon's forces, Lucifer admitted that Death would take them all.

While Death and Lucifer's conversation tells us one thing, the actual showings in the series itself, say something else.

eh? i never said he couldn't die. i said i doubted whether, even if he did, she would have 'power' over him. in that same basanos issue you mentioned, even before either knew he could/would survive, he said to her you have no claim on me and she agreed. the notion that death would take them all (as was stated later, like you said) could simply mean that they COULD all die. i'd have to go back and check the context of the statement to be sure. however, even if he did die, what that would imply as to their then relative power levels is unknown and unknowable and sort of outside the thread. i think she would act as a guide if he chose to allow her, but i doubt that, even were he dead, she could enforce her will on him in any way. he had escaped god's plan. where he would go, or what death would be for him is.....impossible to say beyond speculation.

Cogito
Originally posted by cdtm
The spear usually affects Spectre, because of anti magic properties.. Lucifer's not Spectre, though.

Any reason to think it could affect him?

Not so much because it's anti-magic, but because it pierced Jesus.

Dunno how much you know about the Spectre's history, but here it is in a nutshell.

1. DC is partly based on the Judeo-Christian model
2. Christ, in DC, was actually the Presence.
3. When Christ appeared, the Spectre disappeared, as God's Vengeance couldn't coexist with God's redemption/whatever.
4. After Jesus died, the Spectre was forced to be bound to a host. He was previously hostless, as he was in DoV.
5. Jesus was impaled by the Spear of Destiny.
6. Jesus = anti-Spectre. Spear of Destiny = anti-Spectre.

quanchi112
He'd die.

TheGodKiller
Originally posted by leonidas
eh? i never said he couldn't die. i said i doubted whether, even if he did, she would have 'power' over him. in that same basanos issue you mentioned, even before either knew he could/would survive, he said to her you have no claim on me and she agreed.

I know that, which is why I mentioned the other part of Lucifer admitting that Death could take them all in Hell, after he returned from helping Elaine create her own creation.
Originally posted by leonidas

the notion that death would take them all (as was stated later, like you said) could simply mean that they COULD all die. i'd have to go back and check the context of the statement to be sure.

That essentially still means that Death could take them. Or is the Endless Death less than a true Death Abstract now?

Do so and you'll realize that my assertion is absolutely true. Here, I'll save you some time and post it for you, from Lucifer#65 :
http://imageshack.us/scaled/thumb/338/lucifercandietoo.jpg
Originally posted by leonidas

however, even if he did die, what that would imply as to their then relative power levels is unknown and unknowable and sort of outside the thread. i think she would act as a guide if he chose to allow her, but i doubt that, even were he dead, she could enforce her will on him in any way. he had escaped god's plan. where he would go, or what death would be for him is.....impossible to say beyond speculation.
If she acts as a guide then she is essentially still demonstrating "power" over him. He escaped God's Plan only after God left Creation, and that particular thingy was confirmed only after he finally used the Void for the reason God gave it to him to begin with(ironic since with this last act he ended up doing exactly what he normally would never have done aka carry out God's will by leaving creation) to exit Creation and take a hiatus on the BarrowJane with his Father for a while.

Btw, even in the Void(which Lucifer was last seen traversing once he exited Creation), Death apparently has power over living beings as Lucifer himself confirms here. And its not just a subjective reference to the phenomenon of expiry either, Lucifer referring Death as a feminine entity confirms that she's the Endless Death:
http://imageshack.us/scaled/thumb/51/deathcanstilltakeyoueve.jpg

leonidas
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
I know that, which is why I mentioned the other part of Lucifer admitting that Death could take them all in Hell, after he returned from helping Elaine create her own creation.

That essentially still means that Death could take them. Or is the Endless Death less than a true Death Abstract now?

pretty sure she's still THE death. but i'm still not sure i agree with what you're saying here.



god confirmed lucifer had exited the plan in #39 i think. so since death is part of the plan, does that mean he wouldn't die? or if he did, that death simply wouldn't be the same for him? even prior to that (in the naglfar saga maybe?) we saw 'dead' angels, who were killed again to die a 'final death'. not even sure what that meant, tbh. what i took away from it was this--angels are kind of special. lucifer and michael are even beyond these. that's what i'm trying to say here--even if they experienced death, there is no way to know for sure (especially in lucifer's case, later in the series) just what this would mean. imo death still wouldn't have power (ie--be able to enforce her will) over him.



perhaps. i suppose it depends on how literal you're willing to take that specific comment. the silk man had apparently killed others in the void on his travels, so death must exist in some form. not sure he meant specifically death of the endless (who really has no TRUE physical form) or if that was more of a colloquial term. if he DID mean death of the endless, that would open up the endless to....omniversal levels? my head hurts speculating that far.

so that you haven't lost track of my main point: i think (i'm not positive) that the spear COULD kill lucifer. i don't think though that such an end would mean death (the entity) is suddenly elevated above him, nor do i know what death would actually BE or mean for someone like lucifer, especially later in the series. perhaps she would guide him (offer him knowledge) to help him get where he needs to go? not sure. but that's a far cry from saying she would be able to enforce her will on him. IF that is what you were implying when you said 'power over him'. but maybe i just sorta missed what you were actually implying.

TheGodKiller
Originally posted by leonidas
pretty sure she's still THE death. but i'm still not sure i agree with what you're saying here.

That she would have dominion over Lucifer once he truly expires? I don't see what the problem here is. Death admitted that she didn't have a claim over Lucifer because that was true in that instance. He wasn't fully dead and Elaine came to give her life in exchange for his, which Death happily accepted.
Originally posted by leonidas

god confirmed lucifer had exited the plan in #39 i think. so since death is part of the plan, does that mean he wouldn't die? or if he did, that death simply wouldn't be the same for him? even prior to that (in the naglfar saga maybe?) we saw 'dead' angels, who were killed again to die a 'final death'. not even sure what that meant, tbh. what i took away from it was this--angels are kind of special. lucifer and michael are even beyond these. that's what i'm trying to say here--even if they experienced death, there is no way to know for sure (especially in lucifer's case, later in the series) just what this would mean. imo death still wouldn't have power (ie--be able to enforce her will) over him.

Actually # 39(and its succeeding arcs) revealed that God had left Creation, and that both Michael and Lucifer were chosen as his successors. The only thing that would even hint at the idea that God mentioned Lucifer having escaped the plan is in this scan, adn it only mentions that it foresaw everything he did until the incident with the Void(which was the catalyst of Mike Carey's run).
http://imageshack.us/scaled/thumb/152/lucifer39p11.jpg
That in itself is hardly proof because as we see in # 52, Lucifer is still under Destiny's dominion:
http://imageshack.us/scaled/thumb/100/lucifer52p20.jpghttp://imageshack.us/scaled/thumb/825/lucifer52p21.jpghttp://imageshack.us/scaled/thumb/577/lucifer52p22.jpg
As I said before, the only definitive proof we have of Lucifer truly escaping God's Plan is in the concluding arc when Lucifer finally leaves Creation.
Originally posted by leonidas

perhaps. i suppose it depends on how literal you're willing to take that specific comment. the silk man had apparently killed others in the void on his travels, so death must exist in some form. not sure he meant specifically death of the endless (who really has no TRUE physical form) or if that was more of a colloquial term. if he DID mean death of the endless, that would open up the endless to....omniversal levels? my head hurts speculating that far.

Omniversal levels? I don't see how being able to function in the Void as well makes Death omniversal. Its like saying that just because Marvel's Death can function in the a universe apart from the 616-reality, that she becomes a multiversal entity which is a fallacy. Also, apart from Lucifer's creation, none of the others were ever confirmed as being multiverses either.

In fact during the Naglfar's trip, it was confirmed that the other alternate(and failed creations of Yahweh) were universes :
http://imageshack.us/scaled/thumb/819/lucifer37p21.jpg
Originally posted by leonidas
so that you haven't lost track of my main point: i think (i'm not positive) that the spear COULD kill lucifer. i don't think though that such an end would mean death (the entity) is suddenly elevated above him, nor do i know what death would actually BE or mean for someone like lucifer, especially later in the series. perhaps she would guide him (offer him knowledge) to help him get where he needs to go? not sure. but that's a far cry from saying she would be able to enforce her will on him. IF that is what you were implying when you said 'power over him'. but maybe i just sorta missed what you were actually implying.
No I didn't lose track of your point, and I am pretty sure that he'll get killed in this thread.

If Death IS the literal embodiment of death within the bounds of Vertigo's actuality, then if Lucifer dies he's indeed going to be claimed by Death. Prior to exiting Creation, Lucifer already showed that he wasn't beyond Destiny's vision/reach(as my above posted scans show), and if Lucifer is indeed killable, then I see no reason why Death wouldn't have dominion over him. Although her "dominion" over him could be something as simple as her simply guiding him, but still.

Branlor Swift
Billiam sliced the shitdick out of Aspectre with the Spear and it didn't kill him.

leonidas
Originally posted by TheGodKiller
That she would have dominion over Lucifer once he truly expires? I don't see what the problem here is. Death admitted that she didn't have a claim over Lucifer because that was true in that instance.

maybe. but she never indicated there was a "yet" following her comments.



true, though that didn't exactly go as she planned either, later on.



i think this one is pretty telling:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/526/lucifer39p10.jpg/

"until now". implying to me that lucifer was no longer following the plan.



hmm, wasn't that supposed to have ended differently than it ultimately did though? i'd have to go back to reread the whole arc, but.....there seemed to be more to it than his simply having been doing what was planned. in any event, it appears at least a contradiction to the above imo.



this gets well outside the purpose of the thread, but i'm not sure how being able to operate OUTSIDE of creation (and we know of 2, and both are multiverses) doesn't make death even MORE than a multiversal entity. those universes mentioned are also referenced as creations, so while you may want to stick to the literal meaning of what was said, i see creation as at least logically indicating they could reasonably be labelled as multiverses. again, outside the purview of this thread though. (though i agree--being able to EXERT power in a different universe does not indicate a multiversal entity--so i agree 100% with your assessment of marvel's death). being the conceptual EMBODIMENT of death in more than a single universe does however indicate a multiversal level of power though. and if death is the embodiment, even in the void, then, well......



meh, we'll agree to disagree (or at least for my part, i will.) though i did say a while back that she may well serve to guide him IF the spear was able to kill him. lucifer was not the subservient type, under any conditions. maybe that's why i can't see it changing, even if he did die somehow. anyway, fun speculation and a truly great character.

cdtm
For what it's worth, the only two characters who the Furies were afraid of were Lucifer and Death. Their power essentially comes from rules, something even Dream and the other Endless weren't immune to.

TheGodKiller
Originally posted by leonidas
maybe. but she never indicated there was a "yet" following her comments.

I doubt that she needed to, since it wasn't Lucifer's time yet.
Originally posted by leonidas

true, though that didn't exactly go as she planned either, later on.

That's because Lucifer arranged the Naglfar crew to rescue Elaine's soul in order to repay his debt to her. Not really relevant imo since Elaine's soul went to that Japanese god whom Lucifer killed in the House of the Windowless Rooms.
Originally posted by leonidas

i think this one is pretty telling:

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/526/lucifer39p10.jpg/

"until now". implying to me that lucifer was no longer following the plan.

I intended to post that scan in my previous post but accidentally ended up putting the next page(my scan's pg11 while yours is pg10 of Lucifer#39), however my reasons for believing that Lucifer hadn't yet escaped God's plan so early on in the series still hold imo.
Originally posted by leonidas

hmm, wasn't that supposed to have ended differently than it ultimately did though? i'd have to go back to reread the whole arc, but.....there seemed to be more to it than his simply having been doing what was planned. in any event, it appears at least a contradiction to the above imo.

That particular arc was concerned with the debut of Fenris, and Destiny's page that Lucifer tears out in that scan reveals the Wolf's coming. The ending was not foretold by Destiny as that portion wasn't something that Lucifer attempted to pillage from Destiny's book, and Fenris' demise came several issues later after the Yggdrasil arc(which the Destiny incident revolved around) was already over.
Originally posted by leonidas

this gets well outside the purpose of the thread, but i'm not sure how being able to operate OUTSIDE of creation (and we know of 2, and both are multiverses) doesn't make death even MORE than a multiversal entity. those universes mentioned are also referenced as creations, so while you may want to stick to the literal meaning of what was said, i see creation as at least logically indicating they could reasonably be labelled as multiverses. again, outside the purview of this thread though. (though i agree--being able to EXERT power in a different universe does not indicate a multiversal entity--so i agree 100% with your assessment of marvel's death). being the conceptual EMBODIMENT of death in more than a single universe does however indicate a multiversal level of power though. and if death is the embodiment, even in the void, then, well......

OK, fair enough. But I still don't agree with the idea that just because Death is still operational in the void that that implies that she can be a multiversal++ entity.

In fact, were it not for a busy schedule in the upcoming week, I would even be game for BZing whether or not Yahweh and Elaine's creations were multiverses or not. But as it stands, that's not gonna happen.

Originally posted by leonidas

meh, we'll agree to disagree (or at least for my part, i will.) though i did say a while back that she may well serve to guide him IF the spear was able to kill him. lucifer was not the subservient type, under any conditions. maybe that's why i can't see it changing, even if he did die somehow. anyway, fun speculation and a truly great character.
Actually we've only disagreed over the part about whether Death gets to claim Lucifer or if she has some power/dominion over him after his demise or not. We both agreed that Lucifer could possibly be killed by the Spear in this thread which is good enough in my book.

leonidas
Originally posted by TheGodKiller


In fact, were it not for a busy schedule in the upcoming week, I would even be game for BZing whether or not Yahweh and Elaine's creations were multiverses or not. But as it stands, that's not gonna happen.

that would be interesting. i'd like to here why you think that. no need for a bz though (they take too much time and it IS the holidays!) we could just open a thread in the comicbooks and discuss it there. that way others could have input too if you're interested.




laughing out loud

true enough. so much discussion i guess made it seem we were further apart. thumb up

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