freedon nadd versus darth vader

darthsith19

Without prep time, Nadd would win. Here are his known feats.

- As a Jedi Apprentice he was able to kill his Master in a lightsaber duel. His master, Matta Tremayne, was considered to be an excellent duelist (was stated on Wookieepedia, I am trying to find out what source that came from).
- Naga Sadow trained him in the ways of the dark side, however, before his training was complete, he was strong enough to kill Sadow. (I'm not saying Sadow is above Vader, but he is strong)
- Nadd became somewhat of a god within Onderon truism for defeating the planet's wild beasts and aborigines.
- Thought that he could return from the dead with the help of Ommin or Amanoa. however, they never became powerful enough to help him.
- As a spirit was able to knock Nomi Sunrider to the ground, though he was unable to stop Ulic Qel-Droma.
- When Vodo Siosk-Baas tried to shield Exar Kun from the dark side, Freedon Nadd detected Vodo's interference, and in a masterful display of his dark power, attacked Vodo from light years away, knocking Vodo to the ground. This is how powerful Nadd is as a spirit, being able to knock both Vodo and Nomi to the ground.
- Freedon Nadd used a short lightsaber as well as "Freedon Nadd's Blaster," a vile ranged weapon with a bronze surface which "has killed more Jedi than any lightsaber." These weapons can be found in KoToR 2.
- In addition to all of his aforementioned feats., Nadd collected many Sith artifacts from old Sith ruins, including the amulet that Exar Kun would later use. Could Vader block the infamous amulet blast?
- Freedon Nadd was a Dark Jedi. The stories say he was far worse then Revan and Malak ever were."
―Xarga

And Revan is stronger than Vader, I think. I seriously doubt that Vader is going to be taking out Nadd, amulet and all.

IOU

its from the totj companion, and wookiepedia is correct, however what it fails to mention is that matta willingly left herself open, as a test to see if nadd would take the opportunity to strike her down, and he failed by doing so

its never actually been confirmed that nadd killed sadow

ur confusing nadd with ommin here

though i do agree that nadd takes this

darthsith19

Oh, okay then, what a stupid Jedi.

"Six hundred years later a Jedi Knight named Freedon Nadd came to Yavin 4 and reawakened Naga Sadow. After teaching Nadd the secrets of the Sith, Sadow is believed to have died at his student's hands."

- The New Essential Guide to Characters

Am I? I thought that it was Nadd who did that.

jollyjim311

Vader is a very smart fighter with massive foresight, who becomes stronger the longer he fights. Also, once The Force Unleashed comes out, maybe we'll see a little deeper into his true power that has been shown scarcely. Hopefully he will be shown as the Titan he is, I mean, he is roughly 80% of Sidious, who had been the most powerful Sith for three and a half decades, and has been studying the darkside that whole time.

IOU

Originally posted by darthsith19
"Six hundred years later a Jedi Knight named Freedon Nadd came to Yavin 4 and reawakened Naga Sadow. After teaching Nadd the secrets of the Sith, Sadow is believed to have died at his student's hands."

- The New Essential Guide to Characters

as i said, it hasnt been confirmed, so until then, it cant be used as evidence

no, definitely ommin

darthsith19

Nadd is a smart fighter as well. What makes you say that Vader becomes stronger the longer that he fights? The Force Unleashed will likely make Vader a god, it'll put him as on NJO Luke's level, I am guessing. I could also easily see Nadd being greater than 80% of Sidious, I mean, he was "far worse than Revan" and I think most people here would put Revan as nearly as strong as PT Sidious.

But evidence points towards it as being true - the chances of it being true are greater than 1/2, so then it should be used as proof, until we know otherwise. It was never confirmed that Bane was killed by Jedi, yet people here think that he was merely because evidence points that way, so this should be considered as true until something goes against it.

Manslayer

Originally posted by darthsith19
Nadd is a smart fighter as well. What makes you say that Vader becomes stronger the longer that he fights? The Force Unleashed will likely make Vader a god, it'll put him as on NJO Luke's level, I am guessing. I could also easily see Nadd being greater than 80% of Sidious, I mean, he was "far worse than Revan" and I think most people here would put Revan as nearly as strong as PT Sidious.
Darthsith, you are very anti-vader because for any one who fights vader, you always dispute he loses.

And being far worse than revan?
1) Came from a fallible 3rd party character
2) Never been actually proven nadd > revan

Wait if nadd is even more powerful than revan as your are so fond of speaking off and revan is close to pt sidious which is unproven yet wouldnt that make Nadd > sidious?
Originally posted by darthsith19

But evidence points towards it as being true - the chances of it being true are greater than 1/2, so then it should be used as proof, until we know otherwise. It was never confirmed that Bane was killed by Jedi, yet people here think that he was merely because evidence points that way, so this should be considered as true until something goes against it. There is no "evidence"

Shall we not forget that GL was referring the 80% to ROTJ sidious? And rotj sidious is far more powerful than ROTS sidious whom already had surpassed all other sithlords in history, And note that if vaders 80% of rotj sidious he would be even closer to PT sidious in power

Gideon

Vader is uber, but any incarnation of Sidious would beat his ass.

Manslayer

Originally posted by Gideon
Vader is uber, but any incarnation of Sidious would beat his ass. Exactly

Advent

Originally posted by Manslayer
There is no "evidence"

None?

I'm seriously questioning your ability to comprehend basic sentences. It seems instead of actually reading what he wrote, you jumped on his ass simply because you like to play vacuum cleaner for Vader. I'd advise you to stuff it.

Dumbshit was referring to Freedon Nadd killing Naga Sadow, in which case, there is viable evidence to support that claim. As well, to make that assumption more concrete:

"Nadd awakaended the ancient Sith Lord, and Sadow instructed the Jedi in the dark twistings of the Force. Freedon Nadd then killed his mentor " (New Essential Chronology, Legacy of the Sith, page 12).

It's outright stated by the narrator, take it for what you will (given its an in-universe character).

darthsith19

No, I am not anti-Vader, I'm just not one of you guys who think he pwns all just because he's cool. He is pretty badass, but I'm not going to let that alter my judgment of his power.

1. Yes, he is fallible, however, he is only mentioning the stories that he's heard, it's not him who's saying it, it's the stories. So you'd have to proove that the stories are fallible, not Xarga.
2. The stories say it, so you'll jave to proove that the stories are wrong.

You'd have to prove that ROTJ is far more powerful than his ROTS self, and lets see a quote saying that ROTS Sidious is the strongest Sith ever, from what I've heard it's only DE Sidious who is #1. And you obviously think that vader is stronger than Nadd, so how about telling me how Vader's going to stop the amulet blast.

Manslayer

Originally posted by Advent
None?

I'm seriously questioning your ability to comprehend basic sentences. It seems instead of actually reading what he wrote, you jumped on his ass simply because you like to play vacuum cleaner for Vader. I'd advise you to stuff it.

Dumbshit was referring to Freedon Nadd killing Naga Sadow, in which case, there is viable evidence to support that claim. As well, to make that assumption more concrete:

"Nadd awakaended the ancient Sith Lord, and Sadow instructed the Jedi in the dark twistings of the Force. Freedon Nadd then killed his mentor " (New Essential Chronology, Legacy of the Sith, page 12).

It's outright stated by the narrator, take it for what you will (given its an in-universe character). I wasnt referring to nadd killing naga sadow which i clearly know since i own the NEC,

I do apologise i should have specified that it was meant for the facts that "Dumbshit" was claiming which puts nadd > vader.

IOU

Originally posted by darthsith19
1. Yes, he is fallible, however, he is only mentioning the stories that he's heard, it's not him who's saying it, it's the stories. So you'd have to proove that the stories are fallible, not Xarga.

laughing

Manslayer

Originally posted by darthsith19
No, I am not anti-Vader, I'm just not one of you guys who think he pwns all just because he's cool. He is pretty badass, but I'm not going to let that alter my judgment of his power.
Nice try, Firstly iv seen your crappy logic that any one who is at slightest faster than vader or poses lightning automatically > vader
Originally posted by darthsith19

1. Yes, he is fallible, however, he is only mentioning the stories that he's heard, it's not him who's saying it, it's the stories. So you'd have to proove that the stories are fallible, not Xarga.
Lets see the factors 1) Inuniverse characters can spread propaganda 2) Nadd has never done anything impressive as a living body
Revan on the other hand has done so much impressive feats to put him above nadd.

Xarga doesnt even sound convinced if the stories are true hence why he said "stories said". If he was convinced and truly believed it he would have said "Freedon nadd was far worse than revan" without the "stories said"

How can being far worse than another guy make you more powerful than he is?
Originally posted by darthsith19

2. The stories say it, so you'll jave to proove that the stories are wrong. I dont have to since they are already proven wrong
Originally posted by darthsith19

You'd have to prove that ROTJ is far more powerful than his ROTS self, and lets see a quote saying that ROTS Sidious is the strongest Sith ever,
Wow tsk tsk for you the shit has hit the fan, Never heard of the NEC huh? NEC : yoda was unable to defeat the most powerful sith lord in history

And how does ROTJ > ROTS sidious? Lets see, According to FOC palpatine has access to all the holocrons stored in the jedi temple while the novel RODV backs this up and he himself said he grows stronger as he learns more
Originally posted by darthsith19

from what I've heard it's only DE Sidious who is #1. And you obviously think that vader is stronger than Nadd, so how about telling me how Vader's going to stop the amulet blast. . And how is vader above nadd? Force crush? Studied under the most powerful sith lord for 20 years? Having tremendous strength in the force?

Question, has nadd ever used the amulet once? Because as far as i know nothing indicates that he used it once, naga could have left the amulet in the temple long before nadd killed him

I will continue this tomorrow

Advent

Originally posted by Manslayer
I wasnt referring to nadd killing naga sadow which i clearly know since i own the NEC

I don't really give a shit what you own or not, because that's not the point, the point was that you misinterpreted the second half of his post since you're so eager to hop on his jock because of your personal opinion on his stance.

It's blatantly obvious that's the case here, all I'm saying is to think before commenting, so as you don't look like a jackass who hasn't a clue of what he's responding to.

darthsith19

If you've seen it, then I must have used that logic before. Mind showing me where? Cause I can't recall ever using the logic "anyone faster than Vader is stronger than him." I have, however, stated the opposite.

Just because they can, doesn't mean that it happened, and isn't proof of anything. Try again.

Why is that? Why shouldn't he say "the stories say"? That proves nothing.

If he was less powerful how could he be worse?

When/where?

No, I have heard of the NEC, just not that part, and I could still easily see Nadd being greater than 80% of Sidious.

What is FOC? And I never said that he wasn't stronger, I want proof that he is "far more powerful" than his ROTS self, which is what you originally stated.

He and his amulets/artifacts were put into his tomb. Kun got the amulet from Nadd's tomb. Force Crush will not stop an amulet blast. Training under someone who is powerful doesn't necessarily make you powerful, Yoda could train someone like Scout for 50 years and she still wouldn't be stronger than Nadd or Exar Kun or Vader.

Still waiting for proof that Vader can block the amulet blast.

Darth Sexy

I wouldn't exactly favor Vader in this one. I forgot which source it was, but it stated that Nadd had virtually no trouble conquering the Massassi on Yavin IV, while Kun was curbstomped, and the fact that he killed Sadow(even if the situation was unknown) means he's at the very least, a very powerful force user, and at the very least, equal to or better than a robotic vader. He may be unknown but in sheer force abilities he would be above Vader OR anakin.

jollyjim311

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
I wouldn't exactly favor Vader in this one. I forgot which source it was, but it stated that Nadd had virtually no trouble conquering the Massassi on Yavin IV, while Kun was curbstomped, and the fact that he killed Sadow(even if the situation was unknown) means he's at the very least, a very powerful force user, and at the very least, equal to or better than a robotic vader. He may be unknown but in sheer force abilities he would be above Vader OR anakin.

How both of these things happened makes a huge difference.

There is nothing to suggest he did either on muscle and force powers alone. Making the claim that he easily conquered the Massassi would be like me saying that Sidious took over the whole galaxy with ease, and trying to use it to help him in personal combat. It could have been through non-combat related methods.

And as far as saying that he beat Sadow, I could also say that Vader, while weakened and giving up a lot of his power for the lightside, killed Sidious.

You see, how things happen means a lot.

IOU

1 thing uve got to give nadd is that he has a huge knowledge base

in the totj companion hes stated as knowing every single jedi and sith power listed (which is virtually every power currently known to us (and apparently every power known to the ajo), including powers like force storm, force drain, force blocking etc.) as well as a bunch of unknown stuff from the legendary holocron of adas and the teachings of naga sadow

he also had countless sith talismans at his disposal, such as the amulets that exar kun made famous, as well as a bunch of darkside equipment in general, such as his 'dark armour' which was stated in the dssb to be highly resistant to all forms of energy, including even that of a lightsaber

we also know that he was quite the talented young jedi - 'jedi masters could only marvel at his openness - at his willingness to trust and believe and to give himself fully to the force. his instructors all believed that he would become a master sooner than any before him' (totj companion, under his profile) - meaning, that from what the masters at the time knew, nadd may well have been the most talented jedi in the orders then entire history, which was something like 20,000 years

and as far as what he did in his lifetime, we know that he single handedly conquered the whole of onderon with just his lightsaber and short blaster, the same blaster that was said to have killed more jedi than any lightsaber; obviously hyperbole, but clear indication that nadd was quite the jedi killer in his time

ill tackle what he does as a spirit once i can gain access to the comics, but honestly, as it stands, i really dont see how vader would be able to take him.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by jollyjim311
There is nothing to suggest he did either on muscle and force powers alone. Making the claim that he easily conquered the Massassi would be like me saying that Sidious took over the whole galaxy with ease, and trying to use it to help him in personal combat. It could have been through non-combat related methods.
Excuse me? We know he conquered a relatively peaceful Onderon with the use of Sith Magic, but when he goes to Yavin IV and finds the destructive Massassi, you want to take a stab in the dark concerning his methods? I think there's more than enough evidence to support the fact that he conquered the Massassi with the use of the force, and they guided him to Naga Sadow because they were waiting for him. I have always had a theory of his power in regards to comparisons with Exar Kun but I'll leave that out. Nadd was clearly a very powerful sith lord.

The circumstances are unknown but he did kill an ancient sith lord, something even Ludo Kressh couldn't do. Yet he did conquer and subjugate the entire people of Onderon and the Massassi so his power is considerable.

Allankles

Nadd was a powerful dark sider but I doubt he can beat Vader.

He's lightsaber skills are unkown as are the limits of his force powers.

So for now, I'd have to say Vader beats Nadd. He was the apprentice of the most powerful Sith in history for 20+ years, not to mention one of the best lightsaber duelist. Vader was as mighty as they come.

I don't know who brought it up, but Xarga's comments on Nadd being more bad ass than Revan and Malak were referring to his cruelty,more so than any perceived superiority in force powers.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Allankles
Nadd was a powerful dark sider but I doubt he can beat Vader.

He's lightsaber skills are unkown as are the limits of his force powers.

So for now, I'd have to say Vader beats Nadd. He was the apprentice of the most powerful Sith in history for 20+ years, not to mention one of the best lightsaber duelist. Vader was as mighty as they come.

I don't know who brought it up, but Xarga's comments on Nadd being more bad ass than Revan and Malak were referring to his cruelty,more so than any perceived superiority in force powers.

Yet again, Nadd conquered Onderon and apparently had less difficulty with the Massassi than Kun, and killed Sadow. His sith magic and spirit were never fully driven away from Onderon.

Allankles

He infulenced Onderon; a single planet, Vader influenced an entire galaxy over a span of something like 30 years. He was apprentice to the greatest dark side master for over two decades. I don't see how Nadd beats Vader.

Nadd might be relatively powerful but I don't see how beats Vader based on what info there is on him.

Manslayer

Originally posted by darthsith19
If you've seen it, then I must have used that logic before. Mind showing me where? Cause I can't recall ever using the logic "anyone faster than Vader is stronger than him." I have, however, stated the opposite. If i recall corectly, you said bastila > vader, I may be wrong
Originally posted by darthsith19

Just because they can, doesn't mean that it happened, and isn't proof of anything. Try again. Prove that what xarga said is true, freedon nadd has done nothing to puthimself above revan nor kun, And he got wtf when kun turned on him
Originally posted by darthsith19

Why is that? Why shouldn't he say "the stories say"? That proves nothing. Because he wasnt convinced
Originally posted by darthsith19

If he was less powerful how could he be worse?
Um the way he treated his people in onderon?
Freedon nadd is a tyrant as hitler was, Hitler is far worse than sadam yet sadam would own him in a fight, get my point? And malak is another tyrant who would destroy the entire planet with technology just to kill one person, According to xarga, nadd is worse than that, That alone already proves nadd is worse as a tyrant
When/where?
Originally posted by darthsith19

No, I have heard of the NEC, just not that part, and I could still easily see Nadd being greater than 80% of Sidious. Prove it, right you cant. You said ROTS sidious isnt the most powerful sith, i proved you wrong now shut the hell up
Originally posted by darthsith19

What is FOC? And I never said that he wasn't stronger, I want proof that he is "far more powerful" than his ROTS self, which is what you originally stated. Dumbshit foc is forces of corruption, and the visual guide stated during DE how palpatine got more powerful is because he studied more jedi holocrons wheres between the PT and OT he was studying alot of holocrons to become stronger which is backed up by numerous sources. You fail.

And not to mention you severely lack simple cow sense ,Why would the greatest and most powerful sith lord let his skills get rusty when he has all the holocrons during that time period to study and become stronger? Get my point? I doubt it
Originally posted by darthsith19

He and his amulets/artifacts were put into his tomb. Kun got the amulet from Nadd's tomb.
Wrong, nadds tomb was in dxun, sadows tomb is in
yavin and naga sadow could have purposely put his amulet there in the temple while nadd could have never got the amulet

Originally posted by darthsith19

Force Crush will not stop an amulet blast.
It will kill nadd before he fires the amulet, If he has one which he doesnt
Originally posted by darthsith19

Training under someone who is powerful doesn't necessarily make you powerful, Yoda could train someone like Scout for 50 years and she still wouldn't be stronger than Nadd or Exar Kun or Vader. So your saying vader is weak? Well he isnt, Dooku despite learning under palpatine for 13 years could go toe to toe with yoda and still survive though he was going to lose. And the interesting thing is that several novels indicate that palpatine is training vader with tremendous amounts of dark side knowledge. Vader is uber, get over it
Originally posted by darthsith19

Still waiting for proof that Vader can block the amulet blast. Hmm vader used the force to divert blaster fire without touching it, i doubt that amulets can be blocked so since vader is smarter than nadd, he would attack with a force crush first and there is no evidence to point out that nadd even has a defence

Manslayer

Originally posted by Allankles

I don't know who brought it up, but Xarga's comments on Nadd being more bad ass than Revan and Malak were referring to his cruelty,more so than any perceived superiority in force powers. See darth sith? This is what xarga was referring too, I still doubt what he said was true because he wasnt there to see nadd. Nadd could have done nothing to be cruel or people who hated him could spread propaganga

Count Makashi

Nadd is to much of an unknown, we cant measure his real power and that he defeated Sagow, so what, Vader would pwn Sadow.

Manslayer

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Nadd is to much of an unknown, we cant measure his real power and that he defeated Sagow, so what, Vader would pwn Sadow. ^ exactly, Its like saying ragnos > sidious because of a few quotes which is dumb bullshit

IOU

Originally posted by Allankles
He infulenced Onderon; a single planet, Vader influenced an entire galaxy over a span of something like 30 years. He was apprentice to the greatest dark side master for over two decades. I don't see how Nadd beats Vader.

Nadd might be relatively powerful but I don't see how beats Vader based on what info there is on him.

ur comparing apples and oranges here

nadd singlehandedly conquered an entire planet through his own personal power alone

vader 'influencing' an entire galaxy isnt comparable from a combat standpoint

IOU

LOL!

aside from knowing the technique himself, nadd possesses at least three defences:

1. he can use the 'force of will' power to defend against any direct application of the force through willpower alone

2. he can conjure a force shield that can defend its user against any force based, energy based or physical attack

3. he possesses the sith shield talisman which can defend against any force based or energy based attack

so hardly no defence, he has at least 3

Manslayer

Originally posted by IOU

aside from knowing the technique himself, nadd possesses at least three defences:
Orly? State the source
and apart from that how strong do we know it is since he has never once demonstrated it in his life?
Originally posted by IOU

1. he can use the 'force of will' power to defend against any direct application of the force through willpower alone
Where was this canonically stated? Btw vaders will power alone > nadd
Originally posted by IOU

2. he can conjure a force shield that can defend its user against any force based, energy based or physical attack
Question, quote a source which indicates nadd even had the force shield technique. Even if he did Kasims shield could barely hold of a simple force wave from bane let alone how is a shield going to block a crush of monstrous magnitude? And sadly a force shield doesnt block all techniques, it wouldnt block a force storm (not saying vader has the technique)

Originally posted by IOU

3. he possesses the sith shield talisman which can defend against any force based or energy based attack
So because he has the talisman it means he > sidious? he > revan? How would you know it is even going to be effective?

Manslayer

Originally posted by IOU
ur comparing apples and oranges here

nadd singlehandedly conquered an entire planet through his own personal power alone

vader 'influencing' an entire galaxy isnt comparable from a combat standpoint Right and all nadd did was drove back beast riders which were at war with the people of iziz and nadd only made himself the leader of people in iziz. No where does it state nadd used force to conquer the planet

And please learn how to spell properly and capitalise

Originally posted by IOU
Quote please

Manslayer

Originally posted by IOU
Sadly only palpatine knows the force storm technique as DESB pointed out, dont make me call lightsnake out on this one

Darth Sexy

Nadd's force abilities and sith magic>Vader's abilities and limitations.

IOU

tales of the jedi companion

clearly, the point flew way over your head

your assertion was that there is no evidence for nadd even having a defence for the force crush technique, which was false, and i called you out on it

whether nadds defence is strong enough to handle vaders application of his powers in another story (his power level as a 400 year old spirit certainly supports him having greater power than vader), but im not debating that, all im pointing out is that he does have a valid defence

in the tales of the jedi companion

"clearly, the point flew way over your head

your assertion was that there is no evidence for nadd even having a defence for the force crush technique, which was false, and i called you out on it

whether nadds defence is strong enough to handle vaders application of his powers in another story, but im not debating that, all im pointing out is that he does have a valid defence"

ftr, no proof for such a claim, given we dont have specifics on nadds exact power levels

oh and btw, u seem to be confused on how the power works; its not a battle of wills, but rather how well nadds will would be able to stand up against vaders attack power, so claiming that vaders will > nadds is entirely irrelevant

firstly, thats not a question, but a command

secondly, its a power listed in the totj companion, and in nadds section, under his 'special abilities' its stated that he knows every power listed in the sourcebook: "freedon nadd has knowledge of all jedi and sith force powers presented herein as well as those abilities still hidden in ancient holocrons and tomes"

1. thats kasims shield, not nadds, who is undoubtedly weaker than nadd

2. the wave of force energy was in no way simple, given it was able to collapse the entire rakatan temple in seconds, and from what i know, vader hasnt produced power much greater if greater at all

like rocas or whatever his name is you seem to think that the power of the force shield is derived from the technique itself and not from the user, which is just silly

the greater the force defence of its wielder, the stronger the shield, its that simple, and if its users defence is able to match its opponents offence, the defence works, theres nothing more to it

now the force shield has the capabilities to block any force based attack, let alone force crush which we know from pod can definitely be blocked by the shield. does that mean that a padawan would be able to use the force shield to block a force crush coming from a dark lord of the sith? of course not, but its all dependant on the power of the combatants involved, and thats something u dont seem to get

fyi, an untrained zannah was able to defend herself against the force storm instinctively with some form of force defence, most likely a force shield given its the most basic type, so there goes your force storm > any defence theory

wow, i didnt realise one could misconstrue anothers argument so badly

"clearly, the point flew way over your head

your assertion was that there is no evidence for nadd even having a defence for the force crush technique, which was false, and i called you out on it

whether nadds defence is strong enough to handle vaders application of his powers in another story (his power level as a 400 year old spirit certainly supports him having greater power than vader), but im not debating that, all im pointing out is that he does have a valid defence"

IOU

clearly u missed the part in kotor where it was stated that he single handedly conquered onderon with just his blaster and short lightsaber

or when vodo stated that he dominated the world with the powers of the darkside

laughing

C4PL0CkZ FTW!!!

already been provided

lol, 'dont make me call lightsnake out on this one'
is that supposed to scare me or something?

neways, ur wrong, its a power listed in the totj companion, a jedi power in fact, and it was said that the technique originated with the ancients and the desb doesnt dispute with that, and even if it did, the totj companion retcons it

Manslayer

Ok fine i get the point that you were stating the point where nadd does have a defence to force attacks, i concede on that

But however there is a few points i would like to debate on

freedon nadd has knowledge of all jedi and sith force powers presented herein as well as those abilities still hidden in ancient holocrons and tomes"

Firstly is there anything to suggest palpatines force storm derived from the ancient sith? There is only the possbility that it could have because according to desb, it states that palpatine invents new force techniques and so far palpatine was the only one who had demonstrated this technique which is tearing a wormhole in space.

And these were the sources which talk about force storm im referring too

* Dark Empire endnotes
* Dark Empire Sourcebook
* Handbook 3: Dark Empire
* Dark Side Sourcebook

I dont see TOTJ there

And lets talk about nihilus force drain technique, Unlike the normal drain this drain severs life from the force too right? Yes i know you realise this but kreia stated that this technique can only be given and not taught am i correct?

So how can it be possible that freedon nadd can know every force technique as you are so fond of pointing out?

now the force shield has the capabilities to block any force based attack, let alone force crush which we know from pod can definitely be blocked by the shield. does that mean that a padawan would be able to use the force shield to block a force crush coming from a dark lord of the sith? of course not, but its all dependant on the power of the combatants involved, and thats something u dont seem to get

I do get it now and yes i agree Nadd is powerful and capable of blocking the technique but so far how can we gauge nadds strength in the force? Because all nadd did was drove off the beast riders which attacked the city of iziz.

Nadd was not at war with the people of iziz and how did he "Conquer" the people and made himself king? He influenced them with sith magic and the dark side of the force

fyi, an untrained zannah was able to defend herself against the force storm instinctively with some form of force defence, most likely a force shield given its the most basic type, so there goes your force storm > any defence theory

Firstly IOU do you even bother to attempt to understand which force storm im refering too? I'm referring to the one which palpatine has,

The one powerful enough to rend the fabrics of space which destroyed the entire rebel fleet and completely destroyed part of the surface corsucant when palpatine sent a storm to teleport luke.

So yes my force storm(wormhole) > any defence theory save for the force sever technique which luke and leia used on the eclipse to cut palpatines control of the storm

the wave of force energy was in no way simple, given it was able to collapse the entire rakatan temple in seconds, and from what i know, vader hasnt produced power much greater if greater at all

This is out of point but correction, It destroyed only the foundations of the temple which made the entire temple collapse on him, And vader has displayed much greater display of the force.

*Tearing a tank with the crush technique with ease
*Sent a thug flying a hundred feet
*Levitated himself with the force to slice a piece of debris
*Having the ability to crush an entire medical room just by getting pissed despite still being inexperienced in the dark side of the force
*And his apprentice did crazy shit with the force in the force unleashed trailer
*Sending a pack of animals larger than him flying

^ I am not using that to dispute vader > nadd i am merely pointing out vader HAS displayed greater usage of the force

Ok the bottom line is i get your point of nadd having a defence and i apologise for taking it the wrong way, May i go back to debating with darth sith please? Thank you

Dont get the lightsnake thing wrong. I am NOT trying to intimidate you because that doesnt work here at all. He is just a much better debator when it comes to sidious techniques than i am

Darth Sexy

The techniques you are referring to such as the force storm and the super drain, were both derived from the ancient sith. Sidious took his technique to a whole new level though. And conquering an entire planet single handidly speaks volumes for Nadd.

IOU

it was stated that the technique derived from the ancients, but that doesnt matter anyway, as the power (specifically the wormhole one) was listed in the totj companion as a jedi power, thus nadd knows it, and thats where he learnt it from; not the ancients

indeed, nihilus' drain does seem to be a somewhat unique variation of the technique, not disagreeing here

dude, i never once said that nadd knew every single force technique, just the ones listed in the totj companion, as well as the stuff he learnt from adas' holocron and sadow's teachings, which he indeed does

by looking at how powerful his spirit was

as we know, the power of spirits pale in comparison to that of ones true living form, and nadd had been one for 400 years, and was so much weaker to the point where he described himself as powerless , yet he was still pretty powerful, being able to knock vodo down while lightyears away from him, among many other things, so it can be assumed that he was extremely powerful when he was alive

well the exact circumstances are unknown, however some sources say he achieved it through brute strength while others say that he impressed them with his powers

id speculate that he likely landed on onderon, kicked some serious ass, and then wowed the people with his sith magic, however thats just speculation, we dont really know how he did it

i understand that, however both variations are technically the same technique, and the one performed by the bod was seemingly even more destructive, so my point still stands

well by that logic, vader has no chance in hell at winning this given that nadd himself knows the wormhole variant of the force storm

now 1 thing i will say is that a force storm from sidious would be near impossible to defend against, but do you really think it would really be beyond someone like luke skywalker, even when using just a standard defence? i sure as hell dont

but this is off topic anyway

wasnt arguing against that, however either way you look at it, the attack was extremely destructive, and hardly what ud call 'simple'

'There was nothing subtle about Bane's attack: the massive shock wave shook the very foundations of the great Rakatan Temple. The concussive blast had enough power to shatter every bone in Kas'im's body and pulverise his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid.'

so clearly the attack was extremely powerful, but again, we've gotten pretty off topic

greater? id say so
much greater? well thats pushing it a bit
however, this is largely off topic, who cares if vader is more powerful than bane?

lol, sure thing, and i apologise too for being out of line earlier, ill keep this civil from now on

i know lol, i was just kidding

darthsith19

However, did I ever say it was because Vader is slow? And that was some time ago, I've changed my mind now.

Are we to assume that the stories are false? if not, then what they said are true. And yes, Nadd's spirit was unable to block an amulet blast. So what?

Proof? Assumptions mean nothing.

You have a serious lack of bad reading comprehension, don't you? Show me where I said he wasn't the most powerful Sith. I said I didn't know that he was, I never said that you were wrong, did I.

Why the fvck do you always insult people, you must be really insecure. Okay, now you've proved that DE Sidious > OT and PT Sidious, now proove that OT Sidious is "far more powerful" than PT Sidious, if you can.

I would go to the comic to prove you wrong, but the Old republic Comics aren't showing up on swtimeline.

If at the beginning of the fight Vader uses crush at the same time as Nadd uses his amulet blast, Vader gets hit and dies, and Nadd only gets crushed for a second or 2. Prove that a 2 second crush will kill someone.

I never said that vader is weak, again, you have really bad reading comprehension. I merely stated that being trained by palpatine doesn't necessarily make you strong, being trained by someone strong doesn't necessarily make you strong. Read more carefully next time. Vader is not uber, just strong.

So you're admitting that Vader can't block the amulet blasts? Prove that vader is smarter than Nadd. When had Vader ever used a Force Crush right away in a battle, anyways? If he has never done that before then why would he now?

kamhal

I am with vader, really. First, i am with IOU, i believe vader showed greater usage of the force but much greater my be overdoing it.

About Nadd: it's true that he pushed away vodo but let's not forget he was on Koribban, with all that dark power he could have easily made a shield to protect himself from a light influence.
Also, i think such statement, from Nad being "worse" then revan or malak, seems to have so much credit to me like kreia saying that Tulak Hord was 10x times better then her time's jedis... She never knew him and lacked his knowledge, only heard about stories.
Also, "worse" it's not a term linked with force power or lightsaber skill and more with cruelty, for example.
About Sadow, well, Freedon found him out 600 years later... He may have also been a spirit so...

With all this, i think vader would win. ROTS Vader would beat Nad with his lightsaber mastery, Vader would probably beat him with his force powers.

IOU

i actually said that vader showed greater use of the force than bane collapsing the temple, not nadd

kamhal

Ok, my bad. Hmm, i don't agree with you. You see, while vader wanted to collapse the temple, bane destroying the temple was just 1 side effect from his force storm...

jollyjim311

Bane gathered energy, knocked out a wall, and the whole temple came crashing down.

That puts him on what, almost Kit Fisto's level or raw force power.

Allankles

I doin't see any convincing literature for Nadd being superior to Vader.

Vader had the greatest latent force prowess and even though he lost some of his potential, I would certainly rank his force abilities above most Sith.

As for lightsaber dueling, Vader is the superior by default.

Really, there's no evidence for Nadd being greater or equal to Vader.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Allankles
I doin't see any convincing literature for Nadd being superior to Vader.

Vader had the greatest latent force prowess and even though he lost some of his potential, I would certainly rank his force abilities above most Sith.

As for lightsaber dueling, Vader is the superior by default.

Really, there's no evidence for Nadd being greater or equal to Vader.

Vader wins by default? Explain that big boy. I findi it hard to believe Vader is superior to someone who conquered an entire planet singlehandidly. Not to mention as IOU said, he has vast force knowledge. Then again so does Vader, but as a robot, he is severely limited to certain abilities, and inferior to Nadd.

Bruce Leeroy

Wasn't Onderon at that point almost completely under developed? And it's not like he just walekd on to the planet, crushed the entire planets army, then assumed command. I thought he just influenced certain people, and gained enough influence to eventually concquer the planet. Forgive me if this is wrong, I haven't read TotJ in awhile.

Allankles

Vader is inferior to only Sidious in force powers and the Sith Lord he might have been had he not been injured on Mustafah. I would rank few if any (Nihilus) above him.

As for Nadd, he's never shown anything to be considered Vader's equal and/or superior.

He may have won a planet but let's not pretend like Onderon was some kind of Coruscant back when Nadd took over. Also, lets not pretend that Nadd destroyed an entire army to take the Onderonian throne, he'd just need to influence the right people, become the leader of the largest military force and presto: backwards planet wrapped in a big dark side bow.

Now, Vader was a war hero who turned the tide of countless battles with his combat prowess; at 23 was capable of destroying as powerful a Sith Lord as Tyranus and even after Mustafah, continued to expand his knowledge of the Sith arts for 20+ years while mentored by the greatest master of the dark side.

Vader's resume is alot more impressive than Nadd's. Vader would pawn Sadow, Vader would pawn Iziz militia and beast riders, would Nadd pwn Lord Tyranus? I highly doubt it.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Allankles
Vader is inferior to only Sidious in force powers and the Sith Lord he might have been had he not been injured on Mustafah. I would rank few if any (Nihilus) above him.
Uh, since when? You must be in denial, as Vader is inferior to MANY sith lord.

Except having a huge knowledge base for both sith and jedi techniques, conquering a world, unleashing hell as a spiritm, etc... Right...

Irrelevant nonsense. He did it, he's powerful, Vader's a robot, Vader's dead.

You don't know how much Sidious taught him, not to mention he's a robot so he can't do a lot of things. And what you described has little to do with the force..

Wonderful argument, Vader would be dead with the first blasts of lightning.

Allankles

And you have an argument Sexy? Forgive me for not seeing it. Nadd's take over of Onderon is being used as some marker of his superiority to Vader, we have to examine what Onderon was at the time. He took over a back wards planet in the outer rim, big deal.

A planet to Vader's galaxy. Vader is a big fish, Nadd is/was a small fry.

Let's look at specific feats: Vader by default.

Lets' look at force strength: Vader by default, not to mention that he was more gifted in the force than anyone, and still pretty close to Sidious in force prowess even after Mustafar.

His cybernetics weren't as much of a hindrance as you might expect Sexy, he overcame that hindrance with tremendous will power - which is as Sidious instructed him: was all that he was required to have to increase his power in the dark side.

Vader over Nadd by default.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Allankles
And you have an argument Sexy? Forgive me for not seeing it. Nadd's take over of Onderon is being used as some marker of his superiority to Vader, we have to examine what Onderon was at the time. He took over a back wards planet in the outer rim, big deal.
SINGLE HANDIDLY. Learn to read. Not to mention the TOTJ Companion states his power. Not to mention he learned from an ancient sith and was actually able to apply those techniques, whereas vader wasn't.

Not sure how this stupid remark has any relevance whatsoever.

Except feat wars are irrelevant in 1 on 1 situations. If you knew how to argue you'd learn this is one of the first rules.

Potential and actual strength are too different things. Vader is severely limited and there's little chance that he could take someone who took down the Massassi with more ease than Kun.

wrong as usual

Allankles

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
SINGLE HANDIDLY. Learn to read. Not to mention the TOTJ Companion states his power. Not to mention he learned from an ancient sith and was actually able to apply those techniques, whereas vader wasn't.

Except feat wars are irrelevant in 1 on 1 situations. If you knew how to argue you'd learn this is one of the first rules.

Potential and actual strength are too different things. Vader is severely limited and there's little chance that he could take someone who took down the Massassi with more ease than Kun.

wrong as usual

Singe handedly! eek!

How relevant, I don't remember anyone saying that Nadd shared Onderon. Onderon was a backwards planet with few threats to an experienced force user. Many dark jedi upstarts have taken over at least a planet to further their ambitions. Malak, Tavion, Desann, Jerec, Kun, Revan etc etc. It isn't some awe inspiring feat in SW.

And Nadd much like any single man looking to take a planet, would need a military force, so let's not pretend that he took on Onderon's military, as that would be counter productive for a take over.

Oh! And you're using a feat in a one on one matchup: Nadd's take over of Onderon. If you knew how to argue you'd know that feats are all that matter in mythical matchup debates.

I'm not talking about Vader's potential, he did have a strong connection to the force and he was pretty damn close to ROTJ Sidious in his force prowess.

Nadd has almost no feats that put him anywhere near Vader. And why is your perception always so skewed Sexy? What makes you think the Massasi are anywhere near as impressive a feat as beating Dooku or the Dark Lady or Maul or Obi Wan? The Massasi are about as relevant a feat as Anakin beating on battle droids.

Sure they might give him problems from time to time but how are they relevant? They're trained/programmed and relatively dangerous to force sensitives, but that's about it. Stop the madness.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Allankles
Singe handedly! eek!

How relevant, I don't remember anyone saying that Nadd shared Onderon. Onderon was a backwards planet with few threats to an experienced force user. Just about every dark jedi upstart has taken over a at least a planet to further their ambitions. Malak, Tavion, Desann, Jerec, Kun, Revan etc etc. It isn't some awe inspiring feat in SW.
Really? Show me another instance where only ONE force user took over a populated planet with just his lightsaber and force abilities. Oh wait, you can't..

Except for the fact that he DID, and became the ruler. I guess you haven't read the Naddist Uprisings.

Except that, being the moron that you are, you fail to grasp the fact that my feat deals with his force abilities which are relevant to a 1 on 1 fight, while your feat wars deals with him being only second in command. Great going dumbass, you've proven once again why you can't debate. I guess you're the new Noobaris.

Except for the fact that Kun got curbstomped by the Massassi, while it it stated that Nadd conquered the Massassi, so sorry, my feats ARE relevant. And my feats pertain to Nadd's personal power, while yours are useless.

Allankles

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Really? Show me another instance where only ONE force user took over a populated planet with just his lightsaber and force abilities. Oh wait, you can't..

Except for the fact that he DID, and became the ruler. I guess you haven't read the Naddist Uprisings.

Except that, being the moron that you are, you fail to grasp the fact that my feat deals with his force abilities which are relevant to a 1 on 1 fight, while your feat wars deals with him being only second in command. Great going dumbass, you've proven once again why you can't debate. I guess you're the new Noobaris.

Except for the fact that Kun got curbstomped by the Massassi, while it it stated that Nadd conquered the Massassi, so sorry, my feats ARE relevant. And my feats pertain to Nadd's personal power, while yours are useless.

With a lightsaber and the force huh?! Meaning/suggesting what? He curbstomped the entire military? Ofcourse not, unless you're a moron (Sexy) or don't understand that it would require more than just combat prowess to take over a planet, rendering the feat irrelevant and inconclusive as a combat feat. Try again dummy.

Let's not get into technicalties( the fact that Onderon was backward with an unimpressive population density for a planet). Great feat here.

I haven't failed to grasp any of your inane posts. Dooku> Massasi, Obi Wan > Massasi, Dark Lady> Massasi. Vader's feats are more relevant to the context at hand: one-on-one contest. Beating on Massasi by itself isn't an impressive feat, certainly not when compared to Vader's feats in single's combat.

And Kun was beaten by the Massasi because he was unable to use the lightside of the force and refused to use the dark side. Way to go trying to prove anything with the Massasi. Vader would have completely raped the Massasi, so how is this feat relevant again? Try again dummy.

Manslayer

Mistake. double posted by accident

Manslayer

Originally posted by IOU
it was stated that the technique derived from the ancients, but that doesnt matter anyway, as the power (specifically the wormhole one) was listed in the totj companion as a jedi power, thus nadd knows it, and thats where he learnt it from; not the ancients I kind of think that the stuff mentioned in TOTJ companion is a debate itself because how can that force storm be a jedi power when sidious stated that he uses his rage to build up the storm in space as written in the book of anger, Jedis do not use rage. No retcon has been established between DESB and TOTJ C

And even if nadd knew it how powerful do we know it is? DS just mentioned sidious took it to a whole new level

Originally posted by IOU

dude, i never once said that nadd knew every single force technique, just the ones listed in the totj companion, as well as the stuff he learnt from adas' holocron and sadow's teachings, which he indeed does I must have misread your statement, i apologise then

Originally posted by IOU

as we know, the power of spirits pale in comparison to that of ones true living form, and nadd had been one for 400 years, and was so much weaker to the point where he described himself as powerless , yet he was still pretty powerful, being able to knock vodo down while lightyears away from him, among many other things, so it can be assumed that he was extremely powerful when he was alive Nadd could have just gave kun the impression that he was super powerful when he was alive which could only be half true ,And about pushing vodo when he was on yavin? Spirits arent bound to a single place and the force push certeinly wasnt flying across the galaxy, It could have been force pushing vodo while communicating with him telepathicly

Originally posted by IOU

well the exact circumstances are unknown, however some sources say he achieved it through brute strength while others say that he impressed them with his powers Well the NEC says different, stating that he influenced the onderon people rather than using force because after a while, he couldnt fight of mere beast riders with all of his sith magic, I will provide a quote if you request it
Originally posted by IOU

id speculate that he likely landed on onderon, kicked some serious ass, and then wowed the people with his sith magic, however thats just speculation, we dont really know how he did it I think he kicked the beast riders ass and influenced iziz but ironic he couldnt fend them off as the NEC stated

Originally posted by IOU

i understand that, however both variations are technically the same technique, and the one performed by the bod was seemingly even more destructive, so my point still stands Force storm lightning and force storm worm hole are completely different techniques and sidious force storm is powerful enough to red the fabrics of space and tear open a worm hole which is the most destructive thing in the universe save for a black hole and super nova. My point stands

Originally posted by IOU

well by that logic, vader has no chance in hell at winning this given that nadd himself knows the wormhole variant of the force storm It depends really, Sidious took a few mere seconds to generate a force storm to destroy the rebel fleet. Nadds force storm is unknown but even if he did generate it, if vader attempts to attack him in the process both will get annihilated because even sidious could not fully control his storms
Originally posted by IOU

now 1 thing i will say is that a force storm from sidious would be near impossible to defend against, but do you really think it would really be beyond someone like luke skywalker, even when using just a standard defence? i sure as hell dont You were saying zannah defended agaisnt a force storm lightning, i just pointed out that its the wormhole im talking about, not the lightning, Sorry but i cant really comprehend what you are saying on this one

Originally posted by IOU

wasnt arguing against that, however either way you look at it, the attack was extremely destructive, and hardly what ud call 'simple' Hmm ok not simple then but the fact i was trying to point out is that id didnt shake the whole temple at once but rather its foundations
Originally posted by IOU

'There was nothing subtle about Bane's attack: the massive shock wave shook the very foundations of the great Rakatan Temple. The concussive blast had enough power to shatter every bone in Kas'im's body and pulverise his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid.'

so clearly the attack was extremely powerful, but again, we've gotten pretty off topic Then lets drop this one

Originally posted by IOU

greater? id say so
much greater? well thats pushing it a bit
however, this is largely off topic, who cares if vader is more powerful than bane? I do big grin

but lets drop this down

Originally posted by IOU

lol, sure thing, and i apologise too for being out of line earlier, ill keep this civil from now on

i know lol, i was just kidding Alright smile

but ill admit its great to have a friendly debate with you

As for darth sith ill get back to you later

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by Allankles
With a lightsaber and the force huh?! Meaning/suggesting what? He curbstomped the entire military? Ofcourse not, unless you're a moron (Sexy) or don't understand that it would require more than just combat prowess to take over a planet, rendering the feat irrelevant and inconclusive as a combat feat. Try again dummy.
Yet again, he is stated as "Single handidly conquering a planet with his lightsaber and sith magic". Just because you're a moron with a lack of common sense and reading comprehension doesn't make canon facts wrong.

Right, it's a technicality because it destroys your entire argument.

Wrong as usual dumbass. Vader's feats are irrelevant to a 1 on 1 combat here. And your point is useless because Kun couldn't even defeat an army of Massassi, and Kun>Dooku and Obiwan and Lumiya, etc. Yet Nadd DID defeat the Massassi. Try again.

Vader would have had his robotic leads ripped from under him. He can't do a damn thing as a robot, that would include defeating an army of darksiders. Good going dumbass.

Manslayer

Allankles

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Yet again, he is stated as "Single handidly conquering a planet with his lightsaber and sith magic". Just because you're a moron with a lack of common sense and reading comprehension doesn't make canon facts wrong.

Right, it's a technicality because it destroys your entire argument.

Kun couldn't use the force against the Massasi; he didn't want to use the dark side and couldn't use the lightside. That's the only reason he was defeated by them. That destroys your whole idiotic argument on this issue. Learn to use valid points.

Vader's feats are all relevant to a one on duel, as they are all one on one duel feats.

And as far as Nadd's take over off Onderon, nowhere is it stated that Nadd defeated the entire planet's military to take the throne. You're just grabbing at straws here. It stated that he declared himself king, which suggest (given the backward civilization in Onderon) that he may have simply used spectacles to scare them into declaring him king. It's not a big feat to anyone that isn't a complete moron.

Manslayer

Originally posted by darthsith19
However, did I ever say it was because Vader is slow? And that was some time ago, I've changed my mind now. Then that is settled
Originally posted by darthsith19

Are we to assume that the stories are false? if not, then what they said are true. And yes, Nadd's spirit was unable to block an amulet blast. So what? Apparantly so because all nadd this was "wowed" the people with his sith magic and he declared himself king without sheding any blood save for killing a few beast riders.
Originally posted by darthsith19

Proof? Assumptions mean nothing. Listen to his tone foo

Originally posted by darthsith19

You have a serious lack of bad reading comprehension, don't you? Show me where I said he wasn't the most powerful Sith. I said I didn't know that he was, I never said that you were wrong, did I.
Whats the difference? Anyways dont derail this

Originally posted by darthsith19

Why the fvck do you always insult people, you must be really insecure. Okay, now you've proved that DE Sidious > OT and PT Sidious, now proove that OT Sidious is "far more powerful" than PT Sidious, if you can. Obviously when he was in the movies and the PT his lightning can kill but it takes a while to do so(take windu for an example) while Pre OT and after the PT when he had access to the entire jedi archive to study and bbecome more powerful than before, Simple common sense tells you as time passes you get stronger provided you are learning something which in this case sidious did. And his lightning during the OT is powerful enough to instantly kill 50 storm troopers and reduce 3 sith acolytes to ashes whom are powerful enough to restore life in darth maul
Originally posted by darthsith19

I would go to the comic to prove you wrong, but the Old republic Comics aren't showing up on swtimeline. So your telling me the amulet was in nadds tomb?

Originally posted by darthsith19

If at the beginning of the fight Vader uses crush at the same time as Nadd uses his amulet blast, Vader gets hit and dies, and Nadd only gets crushed for a second or 2. Prove that a 2 second crush will kill someone. Prove that nadd even had the amulet in his posession because as far canon goes he could not defeat mere beast riders with his sith magic the 2nd time they struct Iziz and had he even had the amulet in his hands he would have annihilated mere beast riders and he still would be on his throne in onderon. And crush has killed people before. A mere force choke has killed jedi before and force crush is a much greater power than choke and vader has demonstrated this on numerous occasions to tanks, humans and even buildings
Originally posted by darthsith19

I never said that vader is weak, again, you have really bad reading comprehension. I merely stated that being trained by palpatine doesn't necessarily make you strong, being trained by someone strong doesn't necessarily make you strong. Read more carefully next time. Vader is not uber, just strong. But the fact is vader IS strong and uber
Originally posted by darthsith19

So you're admitting that Vader can't block the amulet blasts? Prove that vader is smarter than Nadd. When had Vader ever used a Force Crush right away in a battle, anyways? If he has never done that before then why would he now? Lets see, when vader knows that he cant face his opponents with a lightsaber he actually thinks of ways to beat his opponents down like using the terrain or affecting them psychologically. He uses strategy to take his opponents down rather than rushing into battle.

And ironic that you mention when has vader used crush in a battle when nadd himself has never even used the amulet once in his life

jollyjim311

Sidious was confirmed as the most powerful as of AOTC, correct? This means that he is, by an unknown degree, more powerful than Nadd at this point. When the Empire is established Sidious leaves all the political work to others and fully dedicates all his time to the study of the dark side (stated in Ultimate Visual Guide), plus, he does not sleep (stated in RODV), so that's an extra few years of study.

Vader is about 80% as powerful as this Sidious, after he has had three and a half decades more of sleepless study, when before this, Sidious was already more powerful than Nadd.

Plus, his feats are above Nadd's. I know where my vote goes.

Darth Sexy

Vader had more feats, none which deal in actual 1 on 1 combat. Nadd was clearly a very powerful force user with vast sith and Jedi knowledge. Again, he conquered the Massassi while Kun had trouble. I don't see how Vader would win in a force battle.

jollyjim311

What do you mean none relate to combat?

Does my explanation not make sense?

IOU

to be fair jollyjim, sidious was like what, 60 years old by aotc? its very likely he may have reached his full potential by that point, at which point more knowledge wouldnt equal more power

kamhal

Yeah. Mace windu was like 53 years old when he was killed by sidious and i think pretty much everybody agrees that he was on his zenith of power. So, sidious at 60 would be, at least, pretty close to his zenith, if not at full power.

Gideon

I don't see how that is the case. Count Dooku was about 70 when he submitted himself to the Dark Side and became "an even greater Sith Lord" as opposed to a Jedi. Yoda is 800 years old and submits himself to become the late Qui-Gon's apprentice, in which case he learns a technique that makes him "far more powerful than we can possibly imagine" to quote Obi-Wan.

Knowledge = technique. Technique refines potential power, and increases efficiency and strength in execution of power, making one a much more dangerous. Palpatine himself says in Dark Empire that he - like Luke - has grown "stronger" in the Force since they've last met, and Palpatine was about 83 in RotJ.

So... really... you'd need to provide some proof about that assertion.

IOU

right, so dookus greatness as a sith lord eclipsed his greatness as a jedi...

that has... what to do with fulfilling your potential in the force?

powerful in what context? certainly not the context were arguing in here, given the technique ur referring to (becoming a spirit) wouldnt have actually had any relation on his current power level

not really sure what point u were trying to make here gideon

which counts for nothing once uve already reached your full potential

never denied that, however technically speaking, it doesnt actually increase your power

sure, in the context of these versus battles, de sidious would take his earlier incarnations in a force battle due to his greater knowledge and techniques at his disposal, and in that sense he is more powerful, but thats not the sense im dealing with here

when a statement like 'Vader is 80% of Sidious in power' is made, it doesnt take into account such factors as knowledge and intelligence, or how deadly sidious would be in a fight, but purely how powerful he was, thats actually pretty obvious

that was the only point i was making, u seem to have missed it

prove palpatine was speaking on a technical level, because he could have just as easily been speaking about how the new force techniques he had learnt had made him more powerful in the sense that he would be more deadly in a combat scenario

well lets see; darth maul, in the tpm novelisation, was stated to have already reached his full potential, and he was only 24

palpatine, with far superior darkside knowledge to work from, a greater learning ability (due to his super genius level of intelligence), and about triple the amount of time to train and study would surely have reached his full potential by aotc, given the facts above

IOU

btw i just realised that i didnt reply to ur post manslayer, ill probably get back to u in about a week or so what with exams and studying and sh1t

Gideon

No, this is where you're wrong. You were the one who made the assertion that Palpatine was in the "zenith" of his power; potential fulfilled. The burden of proof is on you; you've yet to prove anything, but rather try to debunk my argument. Palpatine said that he grew "stronger" in the Force. Not "learned some nifty new techniques", but commented on his strength. In fact, nothing implies otherwise.

Welcome to the world of debating. When I get back, we'll deal with the other shit you posted. Have fun.

IOU

id advise that you learn how to read because i never once outright stated such a thing

if you actually payed attention, ud notice that i just brought up the possibility to go against a claim that jollyjim came up with

id suggest opening your eyes the next time you try and jump on one of my posts

learn how to debate, i was simply just pointing out that jollyjims claim was inabsolute, nothing more to it

its not up to me to prove that his claim was absolutely without question wrong

yeah, i really didnt have to try

strength in the force is ambiguous

sometimes its used to describe potential, other times its used to describe ones current level of power

its not a stretch to assume that palpatine may have been speaking in regards to his rather large increase in knowledge, something that from a certain perspective would make him stronger with the force

lol, you hardcore sw geeks are cute when you try to act all badass, its real hilarious, looking forward to your reply

kamhal

Palpatine said he grew stronger, but as far as i know, i think he was talking about his previous 83 years old self. Palpatine, since had all the knowledge from before and the same body he had, when reincarnated was automatically at full potential, and since vader killed him with 83 years old (he looks quite old), it's possible that his powers had started to decrease.
Yet, the fact is that AOTC and ROTS Palpatine is most likely stronger then ROTJ since he had 20 years less and had much time to train too, so DE Palpatine could be most likely on the level from AOTC and ROTS Palpatine in force power...

Manslayer

Originally posted by kamhal
Palpatine said he grew stronger, but as far as i know, i think he was talking about his previous 83 years old self. Palpatine, since had all the knowledge from before and the same body he had, when reincarnated was automatically at full potential, and since vader killed him with 83 years old (he looks quite old), it's possible that his powers had started to decrease.
Yet, the fact is that AOTC and ROTS Palpatine is most likely stronger then ROTJ since he had 20 years less and had much time to train too, so DE Palpatine could be most likely on the level from AOTC and ROTS Palpatine in force power... Thats nonsense. Novels indicated that he studied the holocrons after the PT and that would equate to him getting stronger in the force, In the EU around the OT era he killed 50 storm troopers will a single blast of lightning and reduced 3 sith acolytes to ashes instantly.

And kamhal age wont weaken your strength in the force, vader luke palpatine and dooku are all old men yet they are still strong in the force.
And DE sidious is miles ahead of any other incarnation of sidious

kamhal

Why is that? First, knowledge is not the same as force power. Dooku had more force knowledge then anakin but sidious himself said anakin was more powerful.
Then, yeah, i know sidious blasted 50 storm troopers but this doesn't show nothing, really. Who strong he was before? And after this? And which was his age? Also, i didn't say a 83 years old palpatine was weak, simple said he could be weaker then when he was at his best.

Who do you know that age wouldn't weaker your strength in the force? Vader said Obi-wan's powers were weak, yoda seems quite weak when he died too. Besides, i don't see in which DE Sidious could have gotten that strong from before.

Manslayer

Originally posted by kamhal
Why is that? First, knowledge is not the same as force power. Dooku had more force knowledge then anakin but sidious himself said anakin was more powerful.
Anakin is weaker in the force than dooku at that time despite having less knowledge but why anakin > dooku? Anakin has the greatest force potential of all force users

And common sense points out that force users actually get stronger as time passes, provided they are doing it consistently which in this case sidious does, The visual guide already stated how DE sidious got so powerful and that is due to him studying holocrons. You cant raise your strength in the force like that, you got to learn something which is what sidious has been doing since the End of ROTS

Originally posted by kamhal

Then, yeah, i know sidious blasted 50 storm troopers but this doesn't show nothing,
It does, and blasting 3 sith acolytes powerful enough to bring maul from the dead also speaks for his power

Originally posted by kamhal

really. Who strong he was before? And after this? And which was his age? Also, i didn't say a 83 years old palpatine was weak, simple said he could be weaker then when he was at his best. The fact is palpatine is stronger when he reached the OT, His lightning couldnt even killed an off guard mace windu during the PT
Originally posted by kamhal

Who do you know that age wouldn't weaker your strength in the force? Vader said Obi-wan's powers were weak, yoda seems quite weak when he died too. Besides, i don't see in which DE Sidious could have gotten that strong from before. Complete and utter bullshit, Yoda was in a near death stage and obi wan lost strength in the force due to him not fighting for 20 years. And dooku is 80 years old yet he is described as being one of the strongest jedi in the PT while luke being 60 years old did impressive feats with the force, Yoda was 800 years old by the time the PT came yet he fought sidious head to head

Bottom line is age doesnt weaken your strength in the force

kamhal

Sidious said to Grievous that "Soon i will have a new apprentice, one far younger and more powerful".

That's why dooku never used the force to beat anakin, because he couldn't...

Also, all you said is not ubber important, really, since you are comparing Windu with some acolytes or storm troopers. Besides, windu actually died and this don't proof that sidious' force lighting got stronger...

Tell me one thing, hadn't dooku said in the ROTS novelization that he was getting older and that his time to big fights was passing? I remember to read dooku's thoughts in which he pretty much admits that the age is getting on him. And he had the same age as sidious in ROTJ.
Also, we don't exactly know yoda's species, so yoda could naturally be able to live much time, whose ability was augumented by his huge connection with the force...

Manslayer

No offence but you indeed are an idiot

Originally posted by kamhal
Sidious said to Grievous that "Soon i will have a new apprentice, one far younger and more powerful". Anakin had more force potential than dooku hence why sidious chose him, And why the far younger part? Dooku is 83 years old. And he is going to die due tp his old age sooner or later and yet that didnt effect his connection to the force.
Originally posted by kamhal

That's why dooku never used the force to beat anakin, because he couldn't... Correct, dooku couldnt use the force due to anakin constantly beating him with a lightsaber
Originally posted by kamhal

Also, all you said is not ubber important, really, since you are comparing Windu with some acolytes or storm troopers. Besides, windu actually died and this don't proof that sidious' force lighting got stronger... It does, in the PT his lightning couldnt kill any body and in the EU it did,

You are actually making the stupidest assumption of all that palpatine actually got weaker than he was at ROTS which absolutely has no proof to back up with nor can you even back up your arguements. Palpatine is a genius, he wouldnt allow his strength or skills to get rusty as time goes on. Vader got stronger in his state as time went by and as well as he ages, He didnt actually get weaker. Palpatine also grew stronger in the force as time went by for he was studying every aspect in the force.

The ultimate visual guide states how he became more powerful and guess what? It said he did through holocrons which is what he has been doing between the PT and OT

Originally posted by kamhal

Tell me one thing, hadn't dooku said in the ROTS novelization that he was getting older and that his time to big fights was passing? I remember to read dooku's thoughts in which he pretty much admits that the age is getting on him. And he had the same age as sidious in ROTJ. If so please provide the quote,

Because and luke skywalker who is human also got old during the NJO era and LOTF era and guess what? He didnt lose strength in the force!

And big fights could refer to lightsaber dueling as dooku couldnt handle anakin. Please provide a better back up kamhal, No body evertakes you seriously. Palpatine was already beginning his quest to start

Originally posted by kamhal

Also, we don't exactly know yoda's species, so yoda could naturally be able to live much time, whose ability was augumented by his huge connection with the force... You totally argued out of point,

You were rambling that people would get weaker in the force as they age which isnt the case as luke and yoda demonstrated to us, The fact that they can live long or not is not the damm point. Its the baseless assertion you were making

Manslayer

And one last thing before you start running your mouth again, Dooku as an 83 year old is more powerful than his younger self.

Oh and age does wear you down physically but it doesnt wear down your connection to the force

kamhal

No offense but you are a truly *******.

Sidious said anakin was more powerful, point taken. Anything to arg? Second, you said sidious prefered anankin because he was younger since dooku was too old and could soon die. So, haven't yoda connection weakened when he was close to his death?
Besides, what i said is that when someone start getting REALLY old his connection may start weaken. Vader die in his 40's so his connection hadn't start weakened. Now someone like palpatine, who is an human and has like 86 yaers old (almost 90) it's natural that his connection may not have been as high as at least 10 years before...
Also, as i said, he don't know yoda's race and besides we see that, by the fact he survived 22 more years, he was not close to his death during ROTS for example. Also luke is like 60 years old so he also isn't close to his death...
By the way, did sidious' force lightning killed luke? Just to know...

About dooku i had to get the quote from swtimeline and it's dificult right now. I give you later.

Manslayer

Originally posted by kamhal
No offense but you are a truly *******.
Dont attempt to parrot me muthafu*er You ARE what i described

Originally posted by kamhal

Sidious said anakin was more powerful, point taken. Anything to arg? Second, you said sidious prefered anankin because he was younger since dooku was too old and could soon die.
True, quit parroting me here
Originally posted by kamhal

So, haven't yoda connection weakened when he was close to his death?
Nope, 800 years old and he used the force better than people who were younger than him. When he was about to die he couldnt fully command the force due to him being physically WEAK, Not due to his age
Originally posted by kamhal

Besides, what i said is that when someone start getting REALLY old his connection may start weaken.
May huh? Seems even you arent convinced by your own arguements
Originally posted by kamhal

Vader die in his 40's so his connection hadn't start weakened. Now someone like palpatine, who is an human and has like 86 yaers old (almost 90) it's natural that his connection may not have been as high as at least 10 years before...
Age doesnt determine your connection to the force unless you want to prove it.

Prove up or shut the hell up which you have yet to do either

Originally posted by kamhal

Also, as i said, he don't know yoda's race and besides we see that, by the fact he survived 22 more years, he was not close to his death during ROTS for example. Also luke is like 60 years old so he also isn't close to his death...
So huh now its close to death which so called weakens your connection to the force? Guess what? Sidious wasnt dying and his clone body was dying in DE and yet he still could pull out force storms.

Again age doesnt determine your strength in the force. If you are too weak to do so its because you are weak physically

Originally posted by kamhal

By the way, did sidious' force lightning killed luke? Just to know...
Sidious tortued luke, didnt even tried to kill him till vader stepped in

Originally posted by kamhal

About dooku i had to get the quote from swtimeline and it's dificult right now. I give you later. I say again :Big fights: could refer to saber dueling or the energy to go on fighting

IOU

Originally posted by Mr "all talk" Gideon when he was trying to act like a badass debater
Welcome to the world of debating. When I get back, we'll deal with the other shit you posted. Have fun.

come on now gideon, are you really telling me u cant reply to any of my post?

IOU

ok i finally got time for your post kadesh, so sorry for the late reply

well jedi dont necessarily have to be willing to perform the technique just because they know it

clearly the jedi knew how the perform the technique (as it is a jedi power), but obviously would never go to the lengths of actually performing it mainly due to how destructive it is (and jedi aim to be as least destructive as possible) and the fact that they would know better than to execute such a dark power which could possibly turn them over to the darkside

i dont recall sidious having taken the power to the next level, in fact the descriptions inside the darkside compendium and the totj companion are near identical, however if darth sexy has a point, im certainly willing to hear him out

and while its true that we dont know exactly how great nadds execution of the power is, the technique itself is extremely destructive in nature, and with it comes great power, no matter how powerful you are, going by the descriptions in the totj companion

its likely you need to be extremely powerful to even come close to executing such a power anyways, let alone controlling it

no worries

he stated it to arca jeth actually, so he really wouldnt have had any reason to lie, i mean really, what good would boasting about how powerful he was when he was alive do, its not like he would really have reason to impress anyone. plus theres also the fact that we already know that spirits weaken over time, for example exar kun who by his own admission needed to gain power from force users and power sources to become even close to as powerful as he was when he was alive, so its not just nadds word that were relying on here, so its pretty clear that he was indeed much more powerful when he was alive

not sure i understand what ur saying here

sure, spirits arent bound to one place, so what? that doest change the fact that nadd did target and then attack vodo from lightyears away, which makes it all the more impressive given that the further away a force user is from his opponent, the harder it is to overpower them with the force, and the greater the required power would need to be. its likely if nadd was actually anywhere near vodo when he pulled off the attack, he may have even been able to instakill him or something, and thats his fricking 'powerless' 400 year old spirit. thats truly how powerful nadd was

no, thats not what it actually says, ur probably mixing up sources, all that the nec states on the matter is that with his knowledge of sith magic, freedon nadd easily made himself leader among the people

then you have kotor2 claiming that he did it by use of his short lightsaber and short blaster (so clearly to some degree through brute force), and the darkside sourcebook claiming that he did it with the darkside and sith magic, so its definite that pure martial might had to have been used to some degree, and likely to the highest

no, thats cool, i have the nec, and it does indeed say that, but what you have to remember is that the nec is written by an in-universe narrator, meaning its subject to being inaccurate

sure, he displays some pretty accurate knowledge throughout the book, and thus most of it can be treated as being accurate, however when he says something like that, he cant possibly know for sure whether the true upper limit of nadds power was insufficient in stopping the beast riders (only nadd would know that), so its asinine to treat that part of the nec as fact

its likely nadd, as king, really wouldnt have cared too much about the beast riders (i mean really, as long as they werent directly affecting him, but just his people, why would he truly care? its not like a dark lord of the sith would really have compassion for a bunch of people that he rules over), for all we know he may have even gained thrills from all the fighting, and just watched over his militia versus the beast riders as some sort of entertainment. we dont know for sure, so its best to just ignore such vague info

already been dealt with

not, theyre essentially the same technique in the sense that they unleash storms of lethal force energy, the only difference is the way the storms were produced

sure, thats true, and in direct power sidious' force storms do appear to be the more powerful variant, but you also have to consider scale. its never been proven that sidious' force storms would ever come close to affecting an entire world, the most damage they ever produce was the destruction of an entire fleet, whereas the force storm produced by the bod was capable of wiping out the whole of ruusan

the point i was making was that attacks that are seemingly impossible to defend against and unstoppable can be defended against with even simple defencive applications of the force. theres a defence for every attack, its all dependant on the strength of the wielder of the attack, which was why i brought up how zannah defended against such an attack

fair enough, just checking to see your stance

my point is essentially that there are defences against any attack, and its all dependant on the strength of the fighters involved

all cool then

officially dropped down

agreed

Manslayer

Originally posted by IOU

well jedi dont necessarily have to be willing to perform the technique just because they know it

clearly the jedi knew how the perform the technique (as it is a jedi power), but obviously would never go to the lengths of actually performing it mainly due to how destructive it is (and jedi aim to be as least destructive as possible) and the fact that they would know better than to execute such a dark power which could possibly turn them over to the darkside The fact is that palpatine stated that he had to execute the power with his rage proves that what has been stated in the totj is debatable to weather it is a jedi power or not

Originally posted by IOU

i dont recall sidious having taken the power to the next level, in fact the descriptions inside the darkside compendium and the totj companion are near identical, however if darth sexy has a point, im certainly willing to hear him out Thats because the force storm palpatine did is completely different than the one nadd or powerful sith masters had
Originally posted by IOU

and while its true that we dont know exactly how great nadds execution of the power is, the technique itself is extremely destructive in nature, and with it comes great power, no matter how powerful you are, going by the descriptions in the totj companion Again if this is the force storm palpatine had, theres no evidence to point out nadd even had the technique, or he would have wiped out the entire beast rider clan. I will agree how ever that he has the force storm lightning ability
Originally posted by IOU

its likely you need to be extremely powerful to even come close to executing such a power anyways, let alone controlling it And palpatine being the most powerful sith lord in history admitted he couldnt fully control the force storms he creates so even if nadd had the identical technique, what hints you it wont tear him apart since he would have absolutely no control over it what so ever?

Originally posted by IOU

he stated it to arca jeth actually, so he really wouldnt have had any reason to lie, i mean really, what good would boasting about how powerful he was when he was alive do, its not like he would really have reason to impress anyone. plus theres also the fact that we already know that spirits weaken over time, for example exar kun who by his own admission needed to gain power from force users and power sources to become even close to as powerful as he was when he was alive, so its not just nadds word that were relying on here, so its pretty clear that he was indeed much more powerful when he was alive Fair enough but i wont deny that nadd IS indeed powerful in his physical form, we just have a very slight idea

Originally posted by IOU

sure, spirits arent bound to one place, so what? that doest change the fact that nadd did target and then attack vodo from lightyears away,
Lets also not forget that nadds push didnt fly across the galaxy and that nadd had pushed vodo while communicating telepathically. And you can harm some one while communicating telepathically no matter where you are because you get the idea of exactly where your opponent is. Nadd wouldnt have been able to attack vodo if they werent communicating really
Originally posted by IOU

which makes it all the more impressive given that the further away a force user is from his opponent, the harder it is to overpower them with the force, and the greater the required power would need to be. its likely if nadd was actually anywhere near vodo when he pulled off the attack, he may have even been able to instakill him or something, and thats his fricking 'powerless' 400 year old spirit. thats truly how powerful nadd was Speculation without backup, Nihilus could overpower so many jedis at a far distance and the jedi council could overpower kun with their wall of light from quite a distance away, Being further doesnt necessarily mean you cant attack your opponent and to do so you need to know their exact location which in this case nadd does

Originally posted by IOU

no, thats not what it actually says, ur probably mixing up sources, all that the nec states on the matter is that with his knowledge of sith magic, freedon nadd easily made himself leader among the people

then you have kotor2 claiming that he did it by use of his short lightsaber and short blaster (so clearly to some degree through brute force), and the darkside sourcebook claiming that he did it with the darkside and sith magic, so its definite that pure martial might had to have been used to some degree, and likely to the highest Yes but to what extent did he use his magic to scare the people? He could have just killed a platoon of soldiers or he could have just impressed them with his powers through some degree of brutality? As far as i know he couldnt drive back beast riders

Originally posted by IOU

no, thats cool, i have the nec, and it does indeed say that, but what you have to remember is that the nec is written by an in-universe narrator, meaning its subject to being inaccurate Firstly an inuniverse character isnt alive nor can it dictate the entire events of starwars. What the character has written has already been written by dan wallace himself thus declared canon by LFL. Everything written in the NEC is through an out of universe explanation which holds higher credibility than any inuniverse characters.

And to add on to that dan wallace confirmed with lightsnake and janus that what he wrote in there is very accurate and canon, Like ROTS sidious being the most powerful for example
Originally posted by IOU

sure, he displays some pretty accurate knowledge throughout the book, and thus most of it can be treated as being accurate, however when he says something like that, he cant possibly know for sure whether the true upper limit of nadds power was insufficient in stopping the beast riders (only nadd would know that), so its asinine to treat that part of the nec as fact See the above
Originally posted by IOU

its likely nadd, as king, really wouldnt have cared too much about the beast riders (i mean really, as long as they werent directly affecting him, but just his people, why would he truly care? its not like a dark lord of the sith would really have compassion for a bunch of people that he rules over), for all we know he may have even gained thrills from all the fighting, and just watched over his militia versus the beast riders as some sort of entertainment. we dont know for sure, so its best to just ignore such vague info Fornow ys

Originally posted by IOU

not, theyre essentially the same technique in the sense that they unleash storms of lethal force energy, the only difference is the way the storms were produced
Then problably DS is right, sidious took it to a whole new level
Originally posted by IOU

sure, thats true, and in direct power sidious' force storms do appear to be the more powerful variant, but you also have to consider scale. its never been proven that sidious' force storms would ever come close to affecting an entire world, the most damage they ever produce was the destruction of an entire fleet, whereas the force storm produced by the bod was capable of wiping out the whole of ruusan Firstly before you dispute Banes force storm > sidious lets look at the facts

Bane needed the combined effort of so many other sith lords to even generate the lightning he did while sidious on the other hand could do his variant alone

Banes force lightning only destroyed part of the surface while sidious force storm ravaged the surface of coruscant and annihilated a 17.5 km ship in mere seconds.

The degree to the power of sidious force storm is that it rended the fabrics of space, something which is nearly impossible to do and if banes force storm was really more powerful, sidious would have rather used that technique
Originally posted by IOU

the point i was making was that attacks that are seemingly impossible to defend against and unstoppable can be defended against with even simple defencive applications of the force. theres a defence for every attack, its all dependant on the strength of the wielder of the attack, which was why i brought up how zannah defended against such an attack Correct and it also depends on the type of attack, If its palpatines storm, force sever is is the most effective way, if its crush and lightning, shield is the best

Gideon

The singular, time-tried defense against arguments involving Palpatine: "it's ambiguiz!"

Unfortunately for you, this isn't the case. You'd have to prove the ambiguity of the statement (which you can't). Palpatine specifically said that his "strength in the Force" increased, as did Luke's. Potential, in this case, was not increased, and therefore - if we use basic common sense - we conclude that it was his current level of power. You claim otherwise and claim ambiguity. Prove it.

IOU

your point? in this case, what were essentially getting down to is ambiguous, so until you can counter that, quit your whining

oh my, i feel like im talking to some retard thats had 1 lesson of argumentation and thinks hes the shit

please dont be dense gideon, you were the one who originally came up with the claim - that sidious was 100% referring to his actual power level, specifically. its up to you to prove up on that claim, and uve failed to do so.

heres basically what were getting down to:

your argument - palpatine grew more powerful in the force by de

your premise (only premise might i add) - palpatine tells luke that he has grown stronger in the force

my counter - strength in the force is ambiguous (with lengthy explanation), thus your 1 and only premise is not absolute in arriving at your conclusion

your counter - asking me to prove that your premise definitely doesnt arrive at your conclusion

do you not see the error of your ways? its up to you to 100% provide a valid argument, you cant back up one of your premises with a negative proof fallacy you idiot. im not saying that ur definitely wrong, just that you havent provided sufficient proof

wow, clearly the point flew way over your head
i wasnt saying that potential and current power level are the only ideas that can be drawn from such a statement, but just that its used so many times in so many different ways in different contexts for there ever to be a fixed meaning, thus its best to accept that it can translate into anything related with strength where the force is concerned, including knowledge of the force specialised in making one a far stronger adversary from a combat scenario.

already dealt with above
however seeing as your having trouble with accepting my counter, ill given you another: prove that palpatine was without a doubt telling the truth to luke when he said that. we both know that he was trying to force luke into feeling that there was only one option that he could take: become his apprentice, and we know that sidious was trying to make the situation seem as dire as possible, so giving the impression that he was stronger than his younger self that was benchpressed down a reactor shaft like a b1tch by a retarded droid would surely give that impression dont you think? so there you go, theres another counter youve to prove wrong, chop chop gideon

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by IOU
your point? in this case, what were essentially getting down to is ambiguous, so until you can counter that, quit your whining
Except for the fact that it's NOT ambiguous, because all of the quotes are there, and all of the evidence supporting the quotes are there. No, Palpatine being the strongest of all the sith is more like a definite.

Except Escape one of the best debaters on this forum, while you're some idiotic pseudointellectual.

Lets see, Palpatine coming back as a clone from Korriban, and being younger. Palpatine learning to create force storms and infusing non force sensitives with force abilities. Doesn't look like he picked up these powers before he died. Dark Empire represents pretty much the most powerful incarnation of Sidious, if not a full potential Sidious.

:

What the hell do you mean strength in the force is ambiguous. It's far from ambiguous you twit. Luke's strength in the force increased from ESB to ROTJ, and it was obvious. Anakin's power DOUBLED from the time of AOTC by ROTS. There's nothing ambiguous about strength in the force because all the facts are there, and you're wrong again.

Yet you haven't provided proof that there was a more powerful version of Sidious other than DE. Escape has provided the proof along with facts(the comics), along with logical deduction.

What I'm wondering is, if you're constantly claiming its 100% on Escape to provide an argument, why are you wasting our time and yours with your ridiculous "counter"? I bet that one flew over your head. And CLEARLY Luke improved dramatically by the time of DE, as did Sidious. Neither one of them were capable of doing what they did in DE, earlier. Not to mention it's ridiculous to think Sidious was stagnant in the force, when all he did was learn the secrets of it, his entire life, every waking moment.

Gideon

Thanks, DS. Really, IOU, I have made my case quite clearly and succinctly. Palpatine did not make any reference to "knowledge", but strength.

Edit: By the way, you asked me to 'prove' that Palpatine was speaking on a 'technical level' when he told Luke he was stronger in the Force. I offered a direct, complete, and straight-forward statement and you asked me to prove it. For me to do that, you have to bring the validity of the quote into question. You haven't adequently done so. I don't have to prove shit.

IOU

wow, clearly you as well as gideon are a member of retards anonymous, because u clearly dont know what the fvck your talking about

i never contested that palpatine is the strongest sith of all, know what the fvck your talking about dipsh1t

and your the dumbass who argues the same stance that i am on this topic, and blow so bad at debating that im starting to actually question my opinion

and this has.. what to do with purely his power level?

and this has.. what to do with purely his power level?

and this has.. what to do with purely his power level?

and this has.. what to do with purely his power level?

wow, way to destroy the very point you were arguing dumbass. knowing more powers doesnt have any relation whatsoever on his actual power level, just his knowledge

no, dark empire sidious represents a sidious with the greatest number of techniques in his arsenal that hes ever had, in a clone body, thats it, hes no more powerful than his past incarnations

do u even know what ambiguous means detective dipsh1t?
it means more that one meaning, and the term 'strength in the force' is constantly used with different meanings in different contexts.

for example, in the nec, its said that anakin (TPM) was immeasurably strong in the force. clearly, its speaking in respect to potential here, as tpm anakin would get shitted on by any jedi in a force fight at this stage

yet in pod, its stated that githany believed that banes strength in the force was growing stronger day by day
potential isnt something that changes, its fixed, thus the meaning here would be current level of power

ergo, the term is ambiguous. its a wonderful word isnt it?

actually i all but made it absolute that he would have realistically reached his full potential far before even the OT times. not my fault you have troubled reading

no he hasnt, all he provided was a flawed piece of dialogue

what the fvck? you make absolutely no sense, the counter was made to prove gideon wrong, its something that happens in debates dipshit

again, you cant seem to differentiate knowledge and power
grow a brain you fvcking retard

dude, if your just going to choose to ignore arguments that have already been made, i really dont see why i should be wasting my time with you

it seems u dont actually know what your talking about, dont really even have a point to make, yet just chose to join in so you could stick up for your boyfriend gideon

seriously man, take a few lessons in debate, and then think you can go up against me in an argument. until then, continue nutting off to revan darth std

IOU

wow, you two really are quite a cute couple, its really adorable

i forgot you take everything absolutely literally. oh well

yes i did, explaining how the term has no fixed meaning is bringing the validity of the quote into question, not my fault your dumb

Gideon

Oh, yes, of course. I thank him for saving me six minutes of wasted time, and suddenly, we're in a relationship. Quaint. I could say the same thing about you and your hand, because it's likely the only thing that'll go near you.

No, but you'd need to provide some sort of evidence for me to not take it literal.

Simply saying "itz ambiguz!" doesn't make it so, IOU. You have to provide proof. You have not done so.

Edit: By the way, it's spelled "you're". A contraction for 'you are'. Don't accuse someone else of being stupid if you're going to make a blatant error yourself.

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by IOU
wow, clearly you as well as gideon are a member of retards anonymous, because u clearly dont know what the fvck your talking about
Spare me your indignant lather, homo. As of now you're embarassing yourself on an internet forum. My, your life must suck.

boo hoo. boo hoo hoo. I really care.

For someone who can't debate for shit, nor spell words correctly, you lack any kind of credibility to tell me whether I can debate or not. And since Escape and myself have common sense and you've proven to not have any, looks like you're at zero again.

Knowledge=power dumbass. Jacen Solo wasn't anything special until he went on a 5 year sabbatical to learn the most arcane force techniques in the galaxy. With his vast knowledge surpassing anyone in the SW Universe, he became exponentially more powerful, probably going above and beyond his potential.

You are clearly stupid, but that's neither here nor there. You are trying to argue that Sidious, who spent almost every waking moment studying the force(like his mystic mentor Plagueis), but when he went into his clone body and consolidated his forces for 6 years, he didn't do anything? Try again dumbass. Nothing remotely suggests that he knew those techniques he used in DE, in ROTS or before..

Except it's not ambiguous, you're just stupid.

You're talking about what Githany THINKS, meaning absolutely nothing. She was a padawan, what the hell does she know? I thought potential was fixed but thats a whole different debate. Take a look at Jacen Solo, who I highly doubt was even supposed to rival Luke, but look at him now.

You have no idea what you're talking about so keep going.

It's not flawed dumbass. The context is clear. It's not my fault your reading comprehension and thinking skills are lacking.

Doesn't look like you're doing anything but failing to counter his argument.

Sure thing captain incompetent.

Then stop embarassing yourself by continuously posting bullshit.

One person embarassed you, I can do the same.

Ok NOobaris #2. Yet another moron who thinks he can debate. Try winning one for a change and someone here will take you seriously.

kamhal

Ok, I have to ask: the word dumbass it's the latest mania or it's just a friendly way to say hi?

IOU

dishing out blatantly copied insults from the television? come on now, we arent that desperate are we gideon?

i already have, its not my fault that you and your gay partner love to ignore well made arguments

yes i have you fricking retard

oh no, my spellingz didnt work, what am i gonna do?

heres the difference: i call u dumb because i spot flaws in your logic and reasoning

you trying to compare that with fricking errors in grammar further reinforces what ive been saying. newsflash: i really dont give a sh1t what people on an internet forum think of my written english here, im not here to impress people with my 1337 english language skillz, so that has nothing to do with my intelligence (not that grammar ever does, education =/= intelligence). so, to recap, your dumb because you argue like a retard, i dont give a fvck how people perceive my written english, ergo im not lame like you and the majority of the people on this forum. now werent you trying to make a point about me lacking somewhere in intelligence? well done there buddy *claps* thumb up

Darth Sexy

Originally posted by IOU
dishing out blatantly copied insults from the television? come on now, we arent that desperate are we gideon?

i already have, its not my fault that you and your gay partner love to ignore well made arguments

yes i have you fricking retard

oh no, my spellingz didnt work, what am i gonna do?

heres the difference: i call u dumb because i spot flaws in your logic and reasoning

you trying to compare that with fricking errors in grammar further reinforces what ive been saying. newsflash: i really dont give a sh1t what people on an internet forum think of my written english here, im not here to impress people with my 1337 english language skillz, so that has nothing to do with my intelligence (not that grammar ever does, education =/= intelligence). so, to recap, your dumb because you argue like a retard, i dont give a fvck how people perceive my written english, ergo im not lame like you and the majority of the people on this forum. now werent you trying to make a point about me lacking somewhere in intelligence? well done there buddy *claps* thumb up

Man, you new kids get dumber and dumber

IOU

oh no, im an embarrassment on the interweb, my life truly does suck

you clearly do considering you bothered sticking up for your fvck buddy gideon

except its not just me, from what ive seen virtually everyone here thinks u cant debate for sh1t. guess what? theyre right

wow, i didnt realise you could get this dumb
knowledge of techniques is simply what enables you to unleash your power in different forms
to actually think theyre the same thing is some of the dumbest shit ive yet to here on this forum

ok, now i see how your confused, i forgot that you were actually a retard for one second, my bad man

as your boyfriend was saying earlier, knowledge helps refine potential power, and it also gives you greater options in unleashing your power theyre not actually the same thing you dumbass

jacen solo, who before his 5 year journey was still pretty young and far from his full potential would of course be able to go through such a major power surge with such great and diverse knowledge, thats why he was so much more powerful after the journey, because his studies with a bunch of different force sensitive races made him much more closer to his full potential, and gave him a huge variety of techniques that he could use his power in the force with

oh my there really is no limit to your stupidity, is there? what you just said makes no sense, you cant go beyond your potential, your full potential is your upper limit

oh my fricking god how can you still not know what the discussion is about

are you seriously this dumb or is this some sort of practical joke on the internet?

ive already made it clear that i believe that de sidious would likely take his past incarnations in a versus battle, and ive already made it clear that i know that de sidious possesses much more knowledge than his past incarnations, however that doesnt mean that hes actually technically more powerful than his earlier incarnations

however seeing as you cant tell the difference between knowledge and power i can see why u dont get this

yes it is you fricking fool, ask anyone that isnt a total retard
however clearly u dont even know the meaning of the word, the dictionary is your friend

i really dont know why im wasting my time with you, i dont think you actually understand how dumb you really are

now listen retard, githanys lack of rank or experience or power as a force user would in no way interfere with her basic understanding of terms used in the sw universe

fact is, such a term as 'strength in the force' was used by someone in a different context as to how it was in the other example i gave, and the meaning changed, ergo its ambiguous, get over it

thats a fvcking example of author inconsistencies you fricking moron, completely unrelated to the actual story, potential isnt something that naturally changes, its completely fixed and can only be altered through unnatural means a la kyle katarn

u seriously need to grow a brain

man, your fingers must truly hate your brain for forcing them to come out with this sh1t. i feel sorry for them.

yes it is, its not my fault your a ****ing retard

repair your taped up glasses then, b1tch

man, your keyboard must truly hate your fingers for forcing it to type this shit. i feel sorry for it

well if you care that much about it...

please dont, i care too much about my kmc reputationz ting

your actually calling me a n00b? clearly your really are quite the typical lameass internet lifer, looks like my suspicions were correct

IOU

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Man, you new kids get dumber and dumber

and you old kids are as lame as ever

Darth Sexy

that's nice. Let me know when you come up with an argument, instead of wasting everyone's time with your stupidity.

Gideon

I wouldn't know; some of us me] have more to our lives than sitting on the couch and channel surfing all night, or sitting on the computer chair and insult people's intelligence (while not spelling correctly). Hell, didn't you send me a PM called "cat got your tongue", wondering why I haven't responded?

Newsflash: people have lives. That's right! At least the normal ones whom people care about. Guess you don't have that special someone who actually considers you worth some attention. Is that why you come here?

We can't ignore what we make. What we do ignore is half-assed opinions supported by zero (that's this number '0') evidence.

Now that was convincing.

...Well, I'd personally start with not insulting someone's intelligence and then not screwing up a simple contraction. "You're" must be really hard to spell these days.

If you see flaws, you're hallucinating. You've managed to do nothing but, oh yes, try to insult me. And you can't even do that without making yourself look like an ass.

No, I'm debunking your argument and correcting your grammar. It's like double jeopardy, I guess.

Oh, of course not. Not when it's the source of your embarrassment.

Well, here's an idea!

Why don't you click the little 'x' on the top right part of this screen, shut down the computer, get off your lazy ass and go to school? Well, if you don't like stringent movement, we could minimize it and you could read a book. Maybe a dictionary? Or do you not have books where you live? They're pages with words inside, bound together for enjoyment.

Do you know what a page is? I have to presume not, since you apparently don't leave the computer all day. Pages are pieces of paper. Paper is substance taken from trees. I hope you know what trees are.

Right, 'cuz so many people agree with that consensus. Logically? You're an uneducated, lazy hick who simply doesn't like that he's getting his virtual ass kicked in an online debate, and you throw a temper tantrum.

When you feel inferior compared to someone, do you always call them 'lame'? It's okay; you'll feel inferior at times in life. The key is to get out of this depression (and off your lazy ass), accept that you're pretty much a deadbeat with no life, and with that clarity - make something of your currently-useless life.

Yes, and I believe I did one hell of a job on it.

You wanna debate? Debate. You wanna insult? Find someone who it impresses. I'll be here when you want to continue the argument.

IOU

sure you wouldnt, its not like you copied it from the television (where its been used about a mazillion times with the exact same wording), you actually coincidentally thought it all up by yourself, didnt you big guy? roll eyes (sarcastic)

i think im understanding a bit better why you and darth sexy get along oh so well

laughing

dude, give it up already, dont you realise how dumb and lame your coming across with this sh1t?

my spelling mistakes = me not giving a **** about how i appear on the internet

your flaws in logic and reasoning = you being a dumbass retard

but really, carry on pointing out all my spelling mistakes there you wanabee grammer nazi b1tch (ooh, lookie, theres another one)

perhaps because you jumped on one of my posts acting as if you were some sort of debating god (like you do with virtually everyone here), referred to my post as sh1t and then claimed that you would deal with it when you got back from wherever the hell you were going, and then failed to do so

hell, could that be the reason?

thats great, falling back on the 'lolz I h4S A 1iF3' excuse, too bad we can review your posts and see that thats all it is: an excuse

heres exactly what you said actually:

Welcome to the world of debating. When I get back, we'll deal with the other shit you posted. Have fun.

then your back the next day, you take the time out of your oh so busy life to reply to some bs in another forum, and continue to do the same in other threads and ignore what you had promised to deal with (clearly because you couldnt), until i remind you via pm, and you again ignore what you had promised to deal with and try really hard to counter the one thing you were still replying to, and fail. so please, dont try to act as if your life was simply way too busy to deal with my post, because its clear it wasnt, and its clear that you couldnt, and still cant

yeah, this would be so much more convincing if you actually had countered what youve been ignoring this whole time

just like your 'i have a life' excuses. oh wait...

and id personally not label anothers post as sh1t when you try yet fail to counter said shit 3 times in a row

how about this gideon, ill improve my speling (oh my, theres another one) once you stop debating like a retard

sure, its not like i pointed out how the only premise of your argument was reliant on a negative proof fallacy (which you still havent replied to by the way), and its not like i pointed out how you clearly believe english language skillz > intelligence and common sense, and its not like i pointed out how virtually every one of your rebuttals that actually makes sense is entirely irrelevant and not addressing the point i was making

sure, i havent done any of that roll eyes (sarcastic)

btw id suggest sticking to the copied insults, your really not very creative with your own

too bad what you say =/= fact

'btw id suggest sticking to the copied insults, your really not very creative with your own'

lmao, i actually found that comment hilarious, considering you

a) have far more posts on an internet forum than i do as well as a far greater number of average posts per day

b) spend likely about ten times as long as i do with each post making sure your grammer is perfect so you can impress your internet bumchums

c) are a 16 year old loser who cares so much about his internet reputation that you copy insults from the television to try and seem somewhat witty

seriously man, that comment pretty much sums up everything you say: bullshit with no backing

the fact that the majority of the people here believe that your fvck buddy darth sexy is one of the best debaters says everything about their judgement, really

but carry one with your appeal to majority, its really impressive that you can actually repeat fallacy after fallacy

refer to what i was saying above, your not a very creative man, but whatever, how about giving your internet buddies a virtual high five with that one, im sure this kind of sh1t impresses all the retards here

again, when you actually manage to counter anything i say rather than ignoring it your all talk bs will be taken more seriously. until then, get a life, get laid, make some friends in the real world and realise that real life reputation >>>> internet reputation