Why No Love for Liz & Jack? *spoilers*

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starfish
Hey guys!

No one commented on my post! I thought maybe because I titled it wrong, so I am going to repost it with a different title. If it needs to be deleted, that's fine. Just a couple responses would be nice!


As I sit here attempting to rationalize exactly why there was absolutely no relationship building between Jack and Elizabeth in this third movie, I am looking back on the end of Dead Man's Chest. If we think of these last two movies and one long film, then maybe we have to look closely at the choice Elizabeth made in leaving Jack Sparrow for dead on the Black Pearl, no TRAPPING him for death, when the Kracken was coming for them. All through DMC there is tension and banter between Jack and Liz, yes, and that darn compass- the compass keeps pointing Jack to Liz and Liz to Jack. But has anyone thought that the end of DMC signified the end of Jack and Liz?

I am beginning to wonder if maybe that was the point where Liz made her choice. She had feelings for both men, albeit different feelings. For Will she feels romantic love- "I want to marry you and be the mother of your children" love, and for Jack she feels... longing, lust even? Jack epitomizes her darkest desires. I think she cares for Jack, but not in the warm loving manner she does for Will. When she chooses to sacrifice Jack at the end of DMC- she does so not only to save herself, but also Will. She also chose to sacrifice any feelings she had for Jack, and we can all agree she did it in a ruthless, heartless manner. She basically seduces him to death. How can we expect Jack to end up in Davy Jones' Locker, dead- for an eternity mind you- and then to simply forgive her and continue to love her like he did before?

The more I think about it- the more I feel that when Liz made the choice to shackle Jack to the ship, leaving him to the Kracken, she made the choice to sever that "relationship." Maybe that was the death of Liz and Jack (my heart will break even harder the next time I watch DMC now.) Liz had NO idea there would be a chance to save Jack. She left him for dead! I do feel she regretted her decision after she made it, but she DID choose Will over Jack- she chose to help save Will's life (as well as the others, I know) by luring the Kracken away towards Jack.

Does this make sense to any of you?

If you really think about it- Liz is lucky Jack forgave her like he did. He even scooped her up and swept her away after to safety at the end of AWE. What a guy, continuing to look out for her no matter what. Yes, I know it is obvious they have lingering feelings for each other just by the tiny little snippets- the little scrappy bones they threw our way in this last film, but overall- I think the possibility of a love relationship died when she killed him. And she did- he even said, "Four of you tried to kill me. One of you succeeded."

Hmph~ and really- in the end she does kind of get her payback. I'm such an emotional sucker... but her father dies. The first man to love her dies, and her husband is taken from her- only to be with her for one day and then gone for ten years. *sigh* I don't know about the rest of you- but these movies are *supposed* to be "fun" and this one has, for now, made me kinda sad.

I'd love to know what you think. I've posted already that while I absolutely LOVED this last movie, my heart is broken and I am trying to put it back together again! I have to make some sense of it all or else I'm going to go batty- Savvy?

lovethemtigers
i agree...The reason I enjoyed COTBP is because it was fun and even though i've never been a fan of Will and Liz as a couple, I thought the end of COTBP at least left me with a happy feeling....

YOu knew Liz and Will would be married
YOu knew Jack was happy, he was once again Captain of the Black Pearl and was surrounded by his friends....

then along comes DMC..and the writers act out my secret fantasy of having Jack and Liz seem like a couple..like they were growing toward each other..."very much alike".....the whole dang blasted Curiosity Conversation....i just don't get it and never will...I know some want to say all those clues actually pointed to Will and lIz...but i just don't know how....it's really bizarre....

So, yes, DMC was darker and stranger...and we left sad because Jack had been tricked by the woman he was coming to love and left for Dead.......we got treated to a hot, sexy kiss of death.....

then along comes AMC...and it ends sort of tragic....Will's heart is cut out by his own father....Jack sails away on a small dingy...his Pearl once again gone and even Mr. Gibbs is left happy - at least he has the strumpets...

Liz is left to raise her son on an island all alone for 10 years...but I guess if you are a w/e couple fan you could say it ended happy because as Will comes back he gets his green flash, the curse is broken and now he, Liz and their son can live happily ever after.....

So, that pretty much brings closure to Will and Liz.....

If there is a POTC it'll probably be based on Jack trying to find the Black Pearl once again and find the Fountain of Youth...maybe they could introduce a new love interest for Jack....as a fan of the hunk..it's just kind of fun to watch him in a romantic situation...but, Johnny doesn't really feel comfortable with that type of role..so I guess all i'll ever get is the kiss at the end of DMC

lovethemtigers
And sadly, I think you are correct..the kiss of death was the end of Jack and Liz...she chose Will and decided to kill Jack and get rid of the temptation...and once they rescued Jack...he was no longer vexed by her since she had pretty much proven to him that she would do anything to be with Will.....so, my biggest fear all along was realized...Jack Sparrow of all things was a victim of unrequited love......

Liz never cared for jack beyond Lust.....

JaehSkywalker
sorry... didn't read it because it was too long.. stick out tongue but okay...

I think Liz liked Jack, and she's torn between the two guys. but, her love for Will made it out in the end.

that was why i hated the ending... Will and Elizabeth ended up, no problem with that, but they didn't get to spend the rest of their lives together. once in ten years?....

Jack said that, IMO partly because he was still bummed about those many many Jacks, bummed... no, maybe traumatized... you're hallucinating that there are many of yourself?! like, WTH right? Jack liked Liz too, but he understood that Will and Liz were meant for each other. He wanted Liz.. heck, they wanted each other... but, somehow, sometimes, bad boys(jack) attract good girls(Lizzie.. :happysmile right? and it doesn't really work out... besides, Jack is one of those people who cannot be tied down.. Liz, well, she had tasted freedom, and that looked like it was enough for her.... but i know that she would gladly do all of that all over again.

Yes, i think when liz chained Jack down, she was thinking that it would save everyone, including her and will.. she felt kinda guilty there too, when i stared at her face in Tia dalma's shack, she looked guilty.. either that, or it was only keira's face lol...

well.. maybe i've got other things on my mind, but i just can't fish them out now.. these are enough for one post.. big grin

lovethemtigers
Hmph~ and really- in the end she does kind of get her payback. I'm such an emotional sucker... but her father dies. The first man to love her dies, and her husband is taken from her- only to be with her for one day and then gone for ten years. *sigh* I don't know about the rest of you- but these movies are *supposed* to be "fun" and this one has, for now, made me kinda sad.




Well,,, yes I guess you could say she got her just reward in the end...but she still gets Will and her son......and jack gets nothing...so far....we have to wait another three years or so to find out when POTC 4 comes out..if there will even be any more....

so yes, i'm very disappointed with jack's closure...

JaehSkywalker
well.. what i said was another point of view...

Surreal_44
Nitpick with you, lovethemtigers. What makes you say that Liz stayed on an island all alone for ten years?

Does that sound like Lizzie to you? 'Cause it doesn't sound like her to me. Also, I don't doubt that Will and Liz would be working toward seeing each other, bending those rules.

And again, I don't see Jack as being a 'victim' of unrequited love. He was ready to stab the heart and gain immortality. The struggle at the end of the film where Will dies is from Jack trying to choose between what is right, and what he wants for himself. I don't see him being desperately in love with Lizzie. I do see that he and Lizzie share a fondness for each other that is more than friendship but not really romantic either.

I don't think Jack's ending is bad. He seemed quite happy to be on the sea again, searching for his immortality. But more than immortality, I think he was just enjoying his freedom. big grin

JaehSkywalker
about that... where did the compass point before it pointed in the right direction?

Surreal_44
What do you mean? Which time are you talking about? big grin

JaehSkywalker
you know.. that time when the compass's arrows spun, then pointed in a direction contrary to the fountain of youth. then, he sniffs.. or drink the rum, then it points in the right direction! what is that about?

Surreal_44
Jack wanted rum the most in that one moment, so it pointed to the rum. Then it pointed in the direction of the FoY, or possibly the Pearl. Maybe both. big grin

starfish
Good- I'm glad to see some of my own thoughts reflected here so I don't feel so alone smile

I did not stay to watch after the credits- I did not know to do so, and my hubby was with me, and he was ready to go! Those seats cramp his 6 1/2 foot frame *lol* So- am I to assume that the rules for Will, one day on shore for every ten years at sea, will eventually be broken, and they will be reuinted like a normal husband and wife? In my head I just don't see her spending her life alone, waiting for the one day... that is just not Elizabeth. I DO see her spending time with Jack, and I don't mean sexually- just as friends. I see her leading an exciting life- after tasting such adventure, a woman like her could never settle for a boring life. It would drive her mad.

I am more upset by the fact that Will was stabbed, had his heart cut out by his father, and sailed away alone. For some reason- if they married them off together, I felt that was a tragic ending. I don't feel bad for Jack at all! He has mentioned a few times his desire to live forever, and now he stole the map to the fountain of youth from Barbossa. Jack can always comandeer his Black Pearl back into his own possession, or he can get a bigger and better ship- but he has the map, and that is what would matter more to him. Jack needs a life of freedom, and he has it. He escaped imprisonment and death as a pirate (as many pirates were being executed at that time.) He helped rescue the sea from Beckett's evil grasp. He helped save Liz. He ended as a hero, just without his ship- but that will always be HIS ship. He was never meant to love... just as Liz was not meant to pine away for decades, neither was Jack meant to be tied down in love. I suppose it ended the only way it could, especially to leave it open for a possible #4. Now he has to go find his ship!

Surreal_44
You are correct in assuming that the curse is broken at the end of ten years. There was a line that got cut from the film that explains it exactly, but it is vaguely implied in the Davy Jones/Tia scene (which was fantastic).

I'm glad you liked Jack's ending. I thought it was perfect for him. He gets to be on the sea, he's free, he's got his rum, a spiffy new flag and the map to the fountain of youth.

I didn't even mind the W/E ending that much, because I knew if anyone could make this whole curse thing work, it'd be them. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, I don't think that they'd just sit around waiting for the curse to be over to see each other again.

They may not be able to break the rules, but they'd damn well work at it to go under, over or around the rules to see each other. The whole movie has me so giddy from good feelings that I haven't really stopped smiling since Thursday. big grin

starfish
I would have walked away from the movie with a better, happier feeling if I had seen the final scene after the credits, and it I had understood everything. This is why I have to see it again. I mean, to me- Here I fell in love with Will for the first time during this movie, and then he died a tragic death, got his heart cut out by his father, became "immortal," leaving Liz behind- never to see her again for 10 years, then a day together, then 10 years apart, etc. I was disappointed and sad. That sounds so stupid from just a movie, but I HAVE been waiting 10 months to see this ending.

Thank you for explaining it to me. I will have to watch the Davy/Tia scene more closely when I go back tomorrow.

I feel better now. stick out tongue

katelovespirate
Originally posted by lovethemtigers
And sadly, I think you are correct..the kiss of death was the end of Jack and Liz...she chose Will and decided to kill Jack and get rid of the temptation...and once they rescued Jack...he was no longer vexed by her since she had pretty much proven to him that she would do anything to be with Will.....so, my biggest fear all along was realized...Jack Sparrow of all things was a victim of unrequited love......

Liz never cared for jack beyond Lust.....

Sigh... *hugs lovethemtigers* we'll get through this together... somehow....

Gideon
I have to say that I personally don't see where the Jack + 'Liz fansquad originates from. There is no basis or anything for a stable relationship between the two other than the aforementioned lust. It seems to me that Elizabeth essentially had the "I love bad boys" syndrome for a bit. She was fascinated with pirates. Jack was pirate. He's a badass.

However, what she had with Will seemed rather 'real'. There was more than just lust, there was love. A true connection that Jack and Liz simply lacked entirely.

starfish
In my opinion there was more relationship building and meaningful conversation between Jack and Elizabeth in the first two movies than there was between Will and Elizabeth. They did a decent job of luring those of us who are fans of Jack/Liz into thinking there could be the possibility of a love triangle~ I'm sure there are others who will agree.

You are right- she is drawn to him because he is a bad boy, but sometimes the bad boys win out in the end.

Oh~ and where the heck is my SIGGY?

Gideon
Perhaps you refer to the chemistry between Elizabeth and Jack; but the movies made it quite clear that she was willing to go to far greater lengths for Will than she would for Jack, and vice versa. She was simply infatuated with Jack and was likely more traumatized at the fact that she caused his death rather than him being dead itself.

But, what do I know? I haven't seen the movie, yet. I'm still just pissed about Beckett dying. sad

starfish
Sorry- just testing to see if me siggy shows wink

I understand your point, but then they should have done a better job creating a chemistry between Liz and Will that was as strong as the chemistry between Liz and Jack. I just felt that the relationship between the two "kids" fell flat while the chemistry between Jack and Liz was strongly evident.

katelovespirate
Originally posted by Gideon
I have to say that I personally don't see where the Jack + 'Liz fansquad originates from. There is no basis or anything for a stable relationship between the two other than the aforementioned lust. It seems to me that Elizabeth essentially had the "I love bad boys" syndrome for a bit. She was fascinated with pirates. Jack was pirate. He's a badass.

However, what she had with Will seemed rather 'real'. There was more than just lust, there was love. A true connection that Jack and Liz simply lacked entirely.

See, the problem is, Gideon, you're basing your argument on a system of logic that views romantic love as more important/meaningful that deep friendship and powerful chemistry. That's not canon-- because clearly a lot of the world would throw out so called romantic love for the adventure of a lifetime. things get sticky when you try and use "good" and "bad" logic for this situation.

Jack and Elizabeth's connection was, granted, very different from Will and Liz. Because Will and Liz essentially had puppy love for the first 2 films. Jack and Elizabeth, on the other hand, are very similar. They want similar things out of life, and are willing to go to similar lengths to get it. They understand each other, compete with each other, and clearly really respect each other. do we ever see Will and Elizabeth having the fun, competitive conversations that Jack and Liz have? Not really. It's generally awkward when they talk just the two of them. they never laugh when they are around each other. they hardly ever smile, except when they are awkwardly kissing each other's knees or something. (shudder).

But you can check out the sparrabeth thread for more where that came from. i am not inherently against W/L, as I've often stated. I was determined to like the movie, even knowing they ended up together. But that hinged on the writers bringing their relationship full circle with appropriate resolution, which we didn't get.

Surreal_44
I disagree. Jack and Liz were entertaining to watch, but Liz and Will had a connection that barely needed words. They don't NEED to have deep meaningful conversations, because once they figure out how the other one is feeling, they're on exactly the same page.

Will is extraordinarily accepting of Elizabeth and her nature, but with Jack he must always try to get a rise out of her, must always try to out-do her, or must try to convince her to be more like him.

It really just depends on what your taste is in relationships, because I see the development of Will and Elizabeth just fine. They had a misunderstanding, then they argue, and then when they're apart from each other for the first time by actual choice, they begin to put the pieces together and discover that what they have with each other is what they want.

That's why they are fine on the sandbar with each other; they understand each other, and they want the other. Not to mention Will is proud of Elizabeth, and he backs her up when she tells him that Jack helped to make her King. "Well maybe he really does know what he's doing," is a statement of his belief that Elizabeth is quite capable to handle situations.

Then when they get back to the Pearl he helps Liz up, and it's obvious they've been talking because she's still talking to Will when Barbossa interrupts her.

When they are fighting, it's time to put everything out in the open. A lot of that scene was cut, but they did talk. In the film it still works fine, because they put each other before anything else in the world.

That is true chemistry. With Jack and Liz it is always seflish, rarely ever moving above their own personal agenda. That isn't healthy, it isn't really much fun for me to watch, and I didn't find the intensity, emotion, caring and chemistry in Jack and Elizabeth that I did find in Will and Elizabeth.

It's all a matter of opinion of course, but if you really look at these films without trying to make it fanficcy (who wants long conversations between characters during an action film?), you'd see all that wonderful subtext that clarifies how they think and feel about each other.

One other point, Will and Liz haven't been given much opportunity to laugh around each other (on screen), since stuff is usually going down all around them, but Elizabeth certainly looks happy almost every time she's around Will, and Will is always happy to be around Elizabeth.

And um, no, the knee-nuzzling was not awkward. I think that's just jealous J/E shippiness talking, because of the many people I've spoken with, it's agreed it's one of the hottest moments in the film. It's tender and bittersweet and filled with love and sexiness...yeah.

Again, it's opinion, but I don't think you're being fair. I think you're angry Sparrabeth didn't happen and I get the impression it wouldn't really matter how much Liz and Will laugh, smile, talk, snuggle, snog or have sex, you'd still hate it because it is simply not J/E. stick out tongue

I don't want to be mean, but that is the impression you are sending out.

starfish
I don't think that last post was meant for me smile By the end of the third movie, I am content with the fact that Will and Liz are meant to be together. I mean, my rational mind knew they would be together- just that little glimmer of, "Don't we always fantasize about the bad boy?" was in my heart for Liz and Jack, but I knew they would not be together. It would make no sense in the end.

There were two things I had a hard time with at first. #1, for us Jack/Liz fans, I wish there had been just a small scene for closure. More than the keep trying to convince yourself darling scene. Secondly, since I am such a softie, and I get wayyy too involved in my fiction, I was happy that Liz and Will married. I was on the edge of my seat for the battle scene, tha "Marry me," scene. It was an amazing scene. So to then kill Will- I think that is what bothered me most. That broke my heart entirely more than the lack of Jack/Liz. I think I do undersand that the Liz/Jack theme died when Liz "killed" Jack at the end of DMC.

I thought the beach scene was very sexy! I think their chemistry was great then. Will has loved Liz since her father pulled him aboard his ship as a young boy. You know he was satisfied with himself and her by the point of the knee nuzzling *lol*

willofthewisp
Maybe I'm just vain, but during the knee thing, I wasn't turned on. I thought it was hot, yes, but all I was thinking was, "Man, I wish my legs were as toned and tan as hers." Sigh.....

I kind of feel the same way starfish does. I'll probably always prefer sparrabeth, but I am 100% fine with having a Will/Liz ending. I didn't like that things in DMC were just discarded, but I said all along that as long as Jack was over her, things would be all good. Well, I think he got over any romantic feelings he had for her. T&T pulled an original concept too underused in movies- that a man and a woman can love each other without being in love. They somewhat explored the possibility of being a couple and figured it wouldn't work, and their relationship turned into an almost brother/sister comaraderie. There is love there, of course, but it isn't the kind of love spouses would have for one another. Would they fall in love if given time and opportunity? I say yes. But I like that after all they'd been through, they came away with as strong a friendship as they did.

IheartPocky
Aw, how sweet. I like the sound of that. hehe love

lovethemtigers
Originally posted by katelovespirate
Sigh... *hugs lovethemtigers* we'll get through this together... somehow....
* hugs katelovespirates* i knew you would understand, my dear.

I just thought the story of jack and liz was a whole lot more interesting....i can't help it...i just thought liz and will were boring and she just seemed like she needed more out of life and a relationship..and i don't like that jack ends up right back where he started in POTC 1 - unless there is most definetly a fourth...where he gets his Pearl back....

and who says that finding love takes away ones freedom......sometimes finding real love can set you free...

but all of this is pointless really..... sad

lovethemtigers
Originally posted by katelovespirate
See, the problem is, Gideon, you're basing your argument on a system of logic that views romantic love as more important/meaningful that deep friendship and powerful chemistry. That's not canon-- because clearly a lot of the world would throw out so called romantic love for the adventure of a lifetime. things get sticky when you try and use "good" and "bad" logic for this situation.

Jack and Elizabeth's connection was, granted, very different from Will and Liz. Because Will and Liz essentially had puppy love for the first 2 films. Jack and Elizabeth, on the other hand, are very similar. They want similar things out of life, and are willing to go to similar lengths to get it. They understand each other, compete with each other, and clearly really respect each other. do we ever see Will and Elizabeth having the fun, competitive conversations that Jack and Liz have? Not really. It's generally awkward when they talk just the two of them. they never laugh when they are around each other. they hardly ever smile, except when they are awkwardly kissing each other's knees or something. (shudder).

But you can check out the sparrabeth thread for more where that came from. i am not inherently against W/L, as I've often stated. I was determined to like the movie, even knowing they ended up together. But that hinged on the writers bringing their relationship full circle with appropriate resolution, which we didn't get.

Standing Ovation...**applauds Katelovespirate**

Well said, my dear.

This is what I am always trying to say. We see the Liz and Jack relationship build and develop. Take the island scene...Jack shares with Elizabeth how he feels about the Pearl - i find that a very intimate moment....and the deleted Peas in a Pod scene, an excellent testimony to the connection between liz and jack..and the deleted island scenes, where he shows her his scars.....and then, of course, all the oozing chemistry that comes through every scene they are ever in together....i felt a real connection between jack and liz....they think alike, they act alike, they laughed with each other, they shared secrets with each other, she believed in jack, etc.....i didn't get that with liz and will...i just never felt, saw or heard any kind of connection except for that small scene on the interceptor when he sees the medallion....

and besides the shipping stuff...what about the beckett story...what mark did jack leave on beckett....

and what did they do to norrington...i soo enjoyed him in DMC...i was so hoping that in DMC he would throw his wig into the ocean and join jack's crew once again....and become a rum-soaked deck hand again.

lovethemtigers

calypso
OK, here goes my two pence. IMHO Lizzy was always infatuated with Pirates from the time she first started reading about them. She told Jack all about his exploints she had read about in the island scene of COTBP. Jack recognized her for a stong woman and the fact that she had piratey ways. 1) she stole the medallion from Will,
2) she lied to the authorities about Will in fear of him being branded a pirate,
3) she figured out a way to get them off the island with no regard for Jack and what would happen to him,
4) she lied to Norrington to get him to go after Will and admitted to Jack that that was the only way for them to save Will, with no regard for the lives that would be lost,
5) she realized that Jack was attracted to her at the end of COTBP so when she meets up with him again in DMC she studies Jack and his response to her in the Curiosity scene, and
6) she used Jack's base instincts as a man against him to save herself, Will and the crew.

Jack always admired her for her cunning and ability to be trecherous
when the chips were down, thus "Pirate" uttered at the end of DMC. If he came close to loving her, it was at that moment, otherwise I think he found a mirror image of himself in her and was egotistical enough to play with her in the Curiosity scene.

TnT stated there was no triangle and now I believe them. DMC was stopped mid-scene and continued in AWE. Lizzy was scared about what she had turned into and was ashamed to even admit it to Will. She was turning into a pirate and even though she wanted to be a pirate she really did not want to be a pirate. "It was not yours to bare," is what she told Will in AWE when he confronted her about it. In Lizzy's mind she used Jack as a mentor of sorts to learn how to be a pirate and she did learn that he did have a method to his "madness", as we saw in the beach scene of AWE. Will finally woke up to the fact then too.

Norri questioned her about her smile for Jack when the compass was suppose to point to Jack on the ship in DMC. I now believe the compass was always pointing to the chest and Jack was in the way. She smiled because on one level as a woman she had a big, bad, salty pirate playing with her and on another level, she finally had hooked his basic instinct as a man.

All and all, on the beach scene with Jack when she put her head on his shoulder, she did it as a friendly jester, not knowing it would arouse anything from Jack. She was too inexperienced with men to know what would happen, although to me she acted like a tease.

When I look at DMC and AWE I see Lizzy flirting with Jack to find his breaking point and what it would take to do that. One of the writers even said she never would have let Jack kiss her in the Curiosity scene and if there was a kiss it would be at the cost of Jack's life. It was the way they always planned it to happen.

She already had her mind made up during DMC about Will. "I am so ready to be married." Jack took that as an invitation when it was only an immature woman speaking of sex and marriage to Will.

Jack was always a good man; he didn't want to be, but he was. Jack is the one who made all the sacrifices throughout all three movies and I really did not like the way they left him hanging in the end. He went full circle. Coming into Port Royal on a dingy and sailing away in a dingy still looking for his boat er, ship.

But, after they all arrived in purgatory and Jack whipped out his compass, did anyone notice that it spun out of control again. Jack put his head back a little and just shook his head. Did he still not know what he wanted or was Lizzy still vexing him?

And, what of Tia Dalma's question "...he knows what he wants, but is loath to claim it?" Why in AWE was she not pushing Jack to claim Lizzy when she was whispering "A touch of destiny" in Will's ear when Gov Swann was in the sea of dead. She also told Will that the destiny had a great price in the end. So, if she knew about the destiny of Will, why was she not saying something to Lizzy to push her to Jack?

Bottom line, there never was an ending with Lizzy and Jack. It is just a pirate movie and we were all pirated. hahaha

IheartPocky
Bloody pirates!

starfish
Originally posted by calypso
Bottom line, there never was an ending with Lizzy and Jack. It is just a pirate movie and we were all pirated. hahaha

I loved your post!

They pirated my heart away!

LoveJackSparrow
it all makes since. it all makes since.

PirateDiva
Oh Man.....I seriously Gave My Heart away to Jack and Elizabeth....i dont know if i'll ever get it Back....lol...not sure if i want it back because to Me Jack and Lizzie Belong together!! My heart seriously Broke into a Million pieces when i saw the ending of AWE and it stopped me from completely loving it right away but the ending grew on me and I already loved the rest of it so now I Love it!!! smile

lovethemtigers
yes, my heart was definetly pirated.....i fell in love with jack and lizzy...i use to fantazise about them being a couple during, after POTC 1....and then when they kind of acted on it in DMC i went overboard and don't think i can ever be saved......

PirateDiva
I know what u mean Love.....I crossed over to the point of no return! Jack and Lizzie have seriously become a part of me, a part of my heart!! It wasnt Just about attraction to them as a Hot Couple, but about a deeper connection between them that we were able to see develope on screen between the 1st 2 Pirate Movies!! A Developement we never saw between Will and Liz because...well they hardly ever were together!! They had barely any scenes together!

Jack and Lizzie were ripped away from us. They made them disappear as if their chemistry, their very obvious feelings were nothing but a ghost!! As I watched AWE i remembered all these Wonderful Moments between Jack and Liz and had great memories, but there was hardly any trace of it in AWE that i caught myself thinking "Did i dream up this past year? Did i dream up DMC? Did i dream up all these theories and facts that all pointed to Jack and Liz?"

I dont know what happened but watching the movie that night, I felt as though i was breaking up with my Boyfriend! My heart just kept breaking apart everytime Will and Liz's lips met! Then i felt the pain of a sword being pierced through my heart when i saw them on the Beach....and if i thought things couldnt get any worse i saw the Tag at the end of the credits and well that was the Twist of the sword that did it for me!

Im SPARRABETH TiL I DIE!!! SO TnT U BeTTeR Do Something to Make us Sparrabethers happy cause that thing Ya'LL said about "If you do the Movie correctly then half the audience would change to the side with man of the better choice" aint working for me (i'm dealing with it) But i sure as Heck aint Happy with it and its Killing me!! Will was Not the better choice JACK IS!!!!! The movie was done incorrectly fellas so step to!!!

JaehSkywalker
point of no return love? i don't think so... even Jack had his chance to get back from the point of no return(a.k.a davey jones locker) wink

ahh.. sparrabethers anonymous lol?

i know.. it's not true, but you could just imagine that liz married will out of pity though he loved jack.. wink

i'm still happy whatever happened.. but still.. i would never stop wondering what would've been if it ended sparrabeth.. or norribeth....

smile

lovethemtigers
Originally posted by PirateDiva
I know what u mean Love.....I crossed over to the point of no return! Jack and Lizzie have seriously become a part of me, a part of my heart!! It wasnt Just about attraction to them as a Hot Couple, but about a deeper connection between them that we were able to see develope on screen between the 1st 2 Pirate Movies!! A Developement we never saw between Will and Liz because...well they hardly ever were together!! They had barely any scenes together!

Jack and Lizzie were ripped away from us. They made them disappear as if their chemistry, their very obvious feelings were nothing but a ghost!! As I watched AWE i remembered all these Wonderful Moments between Jack and Liz and had great memories, but there was hardly any trace of it in AWE that i caught myself thinking "Did i dream up this past year? Did i dream up DMC? Did i dream up all these theories and facts that all pointed to Jack and Liz?"

I dont know what happened but watching the movie that night, I felt as though i was breaking up with my Boyfriend! My heart just kept breaking apart everytime Will and Liz's lips met! Then i felt the pain of a sword being pierced through my heart when i saw them on the Beach....and if i thought things couldnt get any worse i saw the Tag at the end of the credits and well that was the Twist of the sword that did it for me!

Im SPARRABETH TiL I DIE!!! SO TnT U BeTTeR Do Something to Make us Sparrabethers happy cause that thing Ya'LL said about "If you do the Movie correctly then half the audience would change to the side with man of the better choice" aint working for me (i'm dealing with it) But i sure as Heck aint Happy with it and its Killing me!! Will was Not the better choice JACK IS!!!!! The movie was done incorrectly fellas so step to!!!


Diva I haven't seen it yet, but your discription describes how i felt when i started seeing all the spoilers and reviews come in over at KTTC after the premiere night at Disneyland....my heart is broken.....i don't want to see liz and will kiss cuz for me it's forced chemistry..but i will go see Jack/Johnny.....

I remember all those mysterious comments from T and T...that by the end of the movie half of the audience would change sides and join forces with the other side because Elizabeth will make the most correct choice and how the entire audience will be cheering and leave with a good feeling...

Well that sounds like a load of BS....if it were done correctly as Katelovespirates always has said..then maybe it could be accepted...but this sounds unacceptable..i can't wait to see it so i can give my first hand account and comment on my gut feelings about the entire movie....but so far my trusted friends that i have chatted with over this past year...such as Diva, TMaria, Mina, Katelovespirates, etc....none of you guys sound very happy about the Sparrabeth aspect of AWE...which sounds like it is non-existant....

Everyone kept saying they could accept W/E if it were done in good taste, blah, blah, blah...but i kept saying...cuz i know in my heart...that i could never accept W/E cuz i just don't feel their connection...and based on the first two movies....i still think everything was about JAck and liz and how they were meant to be together.....

i am just rambling....i wont' be able to see AWE for at least another week...... sad - i guess i better bring my box of tissues and don't wear any make-up...my little boy is going home with my parents for the summer...so if my husband doesn't go with me..i may call a friend...if not i will go watch it alone and wallow in my grief and my tissues sad

lovethemtigers

calypso
Tigers my heart is broken also. All my friends were trying to cheer me up as we left the theatre and even later over dinner. I wanted Jack/Lizzy so bad that on the red carpet I was a little ticked off that Keira did not show up and walk with Johnny. Boy is that irrational.

I totally understand your feelings Diva and I am right there with you. I even cried myself to sleep after I saw it the first time. But after seeing it a few more times now (5) and going back and watching DMC to see the progression as DMC & AWE as basicly one movie then it was easier for me to accept the ending and Lizzy's actions in DMC. And are her actions so different than they were on the island in COTBP when she burned everything in sight with the rum in order to save herself and find help for Will? I think not, and she stayed true to Will til the end.

I must admit that even if we knew Will was going to die, it was still a shock to me and everyone in the theatre gasped out loud. Just the cruelty of what DJ did because he had not realized his love was just too much for me. I thought this is a Disney movie?

Jack's theme throughout the trilogy is freedom and I guess that was the dominant force behind keeping Jack free at the end. If they had ended it with Jack/Lizzy then they would have had a hard time doing any more sequels because they would have had to include Lizzy or kill her off in the next one, otherwise you wind up with a weekly sitcom, and POTC is definately not that.

I said "I won't like it, won't like it, won't like it and won't like it again,", and I feel I short-changed myself, because it is just a phenomenal movie
with great sets, music, actors, and with Johnny Depp. Fandom of this movie may have been pirated to buy into AWE after the ending of DMC, but I think the lines uttered by Beckett were intended for us Sparrabethers, "It's just good business".

JaehSkywalker
When i watched AWE i was bummed by the ending. i was like 'that was the saddest ending i've ever watched next to walk to remember. and what? no hint of Sparrabeth?" i was soo bummed! but then.. i didn't get to see what happened after the credits......

yeah.. it probably is (to calypso). still a bummer though...

starfish
It is helpful to read all of your comments! I must say that while I am in love with the whole Jack/Liz idea, I am not so to a point where I can let this last movie ruin my enjoyment of Pirates of the Caribbean. I love the whole scope of the saga to a point where my brain will eventually bend to allow me to accept the ending. I KNOW that Liz and Jack were not meant to be. I think I was VERY upset that they did not have any closure to the J/L relationship, but then when I went back and looked at DMC as being the first half of a movie, and ATE the second half- Liz made her choice when she shackled Jack to The Black Pearl. I think that was the closure right there. They DID offer us a tiny glimpse into Jack's mind, and his feelings for Liz with his last two comments to her- the final non-kiss from Liz when he put up his hand to block her, and then the "convincing yourself" comment. Yeah, he cared for her in his own way- it was a glimpse into a different facet of Jack's personality.

I really can't wait to go see it again. Now that I have come to terms with the ending, it will be better for me.

I do have to say- I was absolutely in shock when Will was stabbed. I could not believe it. I did not read much before the movie because I did not want to ruin anything or take away any surprises, so I was taken off guard. I mean- my heart just broke. I was sooooo upset. I was also thinking, "Is this really Disney?" because it was tragic!

But- in the end, the overwhelming emotion from the audience means it was a GREAT movie! There is no doubt this was a great movie. The battle scenes were magnificent. The score is exceptional. That fight scene up on the mast in the storm between DJ and JS was one of THE coolest scenes I've ever seen!

T.Maria
it is a GREAT movie.
the story is phenomenal...

For me, i get the feeling that Disney may of had something to do with the whole will/liz/jack thing.

I mean;
Have we ever seen a disney film where the main lead female falls inlove with one man, and then ends up with another one??

Nope.
Thats not the traditional disney way.

Disney can't have the female lead go galivanting off with the next man she sees...it just doesn't happen.

Also, some journalists have reviewed the film and said that the director and the story has set out to make 'piracy look fun' ...

well DUH lol.

If people want to watch a film about piracy being cruel and terrifying then they would watch a documentary lol

JaehSkywalker
right. It makes Piracy look very.. appealing.

Lilimimi
Originally posted by T.Maria
it is a GREAT movie.
the story is phenomenal...

For me, i get the feeling that Disney may of had something to do with the whole will/liz/jack thing.

I mean;
Have we ever seen a disney film where the main lead female falls inlove with one man, and then ends up with another one??

Nope.
Thats not the traditional disney way.

Disney can't have the female lead go galivanting off with the next man she sees...it just doesn't happen.

Also, some journalists have reviewed the film and said that the director and the story has set out to make 'piracy look fun' ...

well DUH lol.

If people want to watch a film about piracy being cruel and terrifying then they would watch a documentary lol

I know that, you're right. But there was no resolution for Sparrabeth. There were no dialogues explaining their feelings, what they thought, all Sparrabeth scenes have been deleted, and AWE's scenario lacks a lot of explanations... That's why this film deceived me...

JaehSkywalker
maybe because they realize that digging deeper wouldn't be the disney way. they left us with too many 'what ifs'. ever saw a disney movie that showed a lotta stuff like that? except for DMC, nada.

Does anyone have the script? please.. e-mail it to me! pm me for me to give you the right e-mail.. pleaaassseee! *begs*

calypso
Have any of you been in love with a teacher or professor or the guy who was at the gym leading the arobics class? Well, the same concept applies here. You love the guy, but you go home to your boyfriend, husband, lover, etc. These outside encounters all add another deminsion to your overall love life, whether you realize it or not. Lizzy just tapped into Jack's basic instincts as a man and boosted his ego while trying to accomplish what her agenda was, "...to save Will." IMHO she admired Jack, did not trust him in the beginning, but grew to recognize his method of solving problems and ultimately respected him.
She always came back to him to help in every situation she found herself in til the end and Will was stabbed and then Jack, being Jack did the right thing and whisked her away to safety. IMHO she will always look to Jack for assistance, not out of some deep romantic love, but because Jack ultimately always finds ways to solve all the real problems. I wonder what would have happened if she had let Jack get them off of the island he was governor of instead of her taking matters into her hands. Hummmmm might have been a totally different outcome.

I'm still mad over them killing off Norri the way they did. I still think they should have had him kill Mercer, escape with Lizzy, get picked up by the rest of the crew of the Endeavor, take command and try to stop Beckett's madness. I hope one of the green flashes at the end was for him, too.

calypso
Oh, has anyone noticed that in COTBP Lizzy introduces herself to Barbossa as Elizabeth Turner and at the end of AWE as she is leaving the boat, Barbossa addresses her as Mrs. Turner.

Just thought I would pop that in. hahahahaha

lovethemtigers
all i can say right now...is ugggghhhhh.......i hope when i see it i will feel better....and as some of you say bridge dmc and awe together and make some sense of it....

lovethemtigers
Originally posted by T.Maria
it is a GREAT movie.
the story is phenomenal...

For me, i get the feeling that Disney may of had something to do with the whole will/liz/jack thing.

I mean;
Have we ever seen a disney film where the main lead female falls inlove with one man, and then ends up with another one??

Nope.
Thats not the traditional disney way.

Disney can't have the female lead go galivanting off with the next man she sees...it just doesn't happen.

Also, some journalists have reviewed the film and said that the director and the story has set out to make 'piracy look fun' ...

well DUH lol.

If people want to watch a film about piracy being cruel and terrifying then they would watch a documentary lol

Right...but I was so hoping Disney would break the mold with this one, just as they broke the mold with the whole entire thing....the gore, blood..and jack stabbing good jack...that was really bizarre.....and violent...

anyhoo...we've said this before the only time i can think of disney having the girl go off with the second man she falls in love with and not the first is Pochohontas...cause in the first one she falls in love with John Smith and then in Pocho 2 she falls in love with John Rolfe....and John SMith sets her free, telling her he realizes they have grown apart and have different interests now...and i was kinda hoping the same would be true for this one (i know, i know, Pocho was based on a true story, but still Disney decided to go through with the 2nd one that has her fall in love with someone else)...I was so hoping Will would set Liz free to go roam the world with jack...


I guess i just like seeing jack and liz kiss...maybe that's what got me hooked....kinky, I know....

calypso
Yea Tigers, how about I meet you at the gym and we find a hunky buff dude to do arobics with. hehehehe Oh, my heart is already racing. Maybe he will look like CJS.

PirateDiva
i really dont care what anyone says Jack and Lizzie care for each other and I agree with Lovethemtigers....i wish Disney would have broken the mold with this Movie....i mean they did by a simulated sex scene between Will and Liz and the rest of the things that tigers said!!

I think part of the reason why so many critics gave it bad reviews is that Ultimately ppl want to see Jack HAPPY!! and that wasnt a very good ending for him!!

I Love Jack and Liz and they need to be together!! sad anybody read any GOOD Sparrabeth fan fics lately?? im in need of 1!

Surreal_44
There is resolution for Sparrabeth; just not the kind that you wanted.

What I think is great about the relationships between all three of the main characters is that they don't really have to talk to each other, they sort of just work through their issues on their own.

Take Will and Jack, for example. They basically only have one scene alone together, and they talk as if nothing had really happened between them. I think the LACK of discussing issues actually shows how strong the bond is between them, just as it is between Jack and Liz.

What is comes down to though, is that Jack felt that Elizabeth had wronged him greatly, and any love/lust/admiration he had for her was gone after suffering in the Locker.

He states it then, and by the time the Bretheren Court rolls around he's softened toward her, and he votes for her to be King. He gave Will his compass, something quite precious to him, and he trusted Will with it.

I think in these films actions speak louder than words. big grin

T.Maria
surreal, there is no actual resolution for sparrabeth in AWE.

There was resolution for willabeth and norribeth.
THEY both had important scenes with eachother.

Scenes that gave the ships closure and allowed the audience to realise where it was going.

Sparrabeth?
The reason that most movie-goers went to see AWE (because they were intregued by the fact that jack had died and were wondering exactly what liz's motives were) was because of the pair.

hell, we didnt even get a converation where liz actually says shes sorry, or gives some kind of recognition to what shes done!

She does when will confronts her...but theres no resolution there for liz and jack because they dont speak...they just ackowledge eachother.

The only other scene we get is at the end with the "keep teling yourself that, darlin'" line....

And even that has no closure!
Whats it supposed to mean?

Does jack know that liz harbours feelings for him? or is he simply joking with her?

We didnt get any closure at all in the sense that we would be happy with the outcome, because no one really understands WHY the whole dynamic of the relationship was dropped.

Try explaining this to my 8 yearold brother, who was smart enough to realise that jack is the only one who makes liz feel free...

Those were his exact words.
He couldtn understand why jack didnt get the girl.
And this is an 8 yearold we're talking about.

LovelyOne
Originally posted by lovethemtigers
And sadly, I think you are correct..the kiss of death was the end of Jack and Liz...she chose Will and decided to kill Jack and get rid of the temptation...and once they rescued Jack...he was no longer vexed by her since she had pretty much proven to him that she would do anything to be with Will.....so, my biggest fear all along was realized...Jack Sparrow of all things was a victim of unrequited love......

Liz never cared for jack beyond Lust.....

then, why oh WHY did they have her almost kiss him again if that kiss was the end of Jack/Liz..its like "oh its the end, she doesnt want him".."oh no look! its not! She still wants him"

I think people would have accepted the movie 3 story more if she DIDNT go in to kiss Jack again at te end of movie 2 when leaving him..STUPID move by the writers IMO. It made it look like there was to be much more J/E to come..

LovelyOne
that kiss WOULD have been closure to J/E had it not been for the lip graze after..it then became a tease

willofthewisp
Okay, I have to say, the relationship is resolved. According to T&T, it was resolved at the end of DMC. I'll always love sparrabeth, so I'm looking at the canon J/E relationship here. I think in DMC, people assumed they were an item. Beckett certainly did. He fishes for information from Liz in DMC and then from Jack in AWE. Neither person really reveals too much. But I think they both start to think about the possibilities. Jack's come across a woman who can beat him, who is gorgeous, smart, independent, and competent. Of course he's going to contemplate having a relationship with her. Liz is flattered by it and probably does toy with the idea of having him. So they banter, kind of explore what the other has to offer. T&T say Liz's kiss is to save Will AND it lets her slake her lust. Yes, she did lust after Jack. Who wouldn't? I'm engaged and I find him a sexy beast. But she slakes her lust there, meaning she gets it out of her system. That is the motivation behind the almost-kiss.

Disclaimer: I want sparrabeth. I will always think it's better. This is the explanation of what actually happens.

So they have this almost-kiss and it's hot and both seem turned on by it, at least a little. But, Liz makes her decision. Jack respects it and is dazed, and I think he still thinks he can get out of it and give her a little slap on the wrist for outplaying him once again. But no. He dies.

Which brings us to her guilt. By this time, I think she's established a strong friendship with Jack and is in danger of losing it. So we set sail on our journey. I don't think romantic thoughts are in her head. She just wants him back in her life- alive-and hopes to God he won't hate her.

Which brings us to Jack. Well, his mind is everywhere. I'm sure of all the multiple Jacks running around one of them is thinking of taking an imaginary Liz right there on the deck. But he's dead, going nuts, and it's all her fault. Notice he doesn't look all that happy to see her once they reunite. But then a magic thing happens. It blows over. This relationship is too strong, and then the tragedy of Liz losing her dad seems to bring them to at least back to where they were.

It's a strong friendship. When he picks her as pirate king and she trades him for Will, they both know everything worked out how they wanted it. They can depend on one another and can work with one another. It's a more comfortable relationship that's more casual than it was and I think it's because all the romantic confusion is gone. Hasn't anyone here ever had a really great friend of the opposite sex? I think that's the closure of the relationship. The "it never would have worked between us" is an inside joke between them. It's something they can laugh about together. I personally would have preferred to see them at least hug, but hey, she's the Pirate King. He's going to come visit her a lot. It's not completely goodbye. I know, fellow sparrabethers, it's not the ending we hoped for. But appreciate a deep friendship for what it is. They went from strangers, to being forced to work together, to a fledgling friendship, to fliritng with romance, to almost wrecking it all, and they not only salvaged their relationship, but improved it. Talk about strong feelings. Besides, the Swann and the Sparrow are linked together, not only through each other but through Will.

Surreal_44
You didn't get a convo because what would she say?

"Sorry I fed you to the Kraken? Sorry I used your attraction to me against you?"

Words are meaningless in a case like that. She came to get Jack, she felt guilty. Jack felt bad about it but eventually he got over it. He demonstrated this, she demonstrated how sorry she was by bringing him back.

"I kissed you Jack, but I don't love you." Is that what you want to hear? "Lizzie, I would have loved you but you killed me so I'm not sure I even like you anymore."

What in the world would have worked for you? It's unnecessary and would have taken away from the film.

Since it's obvious that Will and Elizabeth were desperately wanting each other during the third film (even if they were mad at each other), it would have been trite to have Jack and Elizabeth talk about their feelings.

As for Elizabeth leaning in to kiss Jack, I will point out that she in fact DID NOT kiss him again. That she left him to die. What do you think that meant? You've seen how Elizabeth is; if she wants something badly enough, she will fight for it.

LovelyOne
I think a lot of the J/E scenes were cut from the final pic of AWE..in the script I have there' a WHOLE lot more J/e crap going on in it.

I personally DONT think their relationship was originaly supposed to be closed on the deck of the pearl..in the AWE script I have which was written feb 2006, It straight away suggests Liz's feelings for jack when she hugs him and Jack's feelings for her when talking to becket..I posted that particular scene on another thread.

Its like Keira said "no I'm not coming back" so they changed the whole thing..there was originally meant to be more J/E in there I can confirm that.

and there were even various lines in DMC AND AWE that suggested the kid would be Jack's and Liz's

I'm not even kidding here..it was too late to remove the child lines involving Jack/Liz from DMC...but they were removed from AWE it seems??? along with a load of other J/E stuff.

Surreal_44
You're stretching, LovelyOne.

One thing that the writers mentioned in an interview is that in the two films, they wanted to take Will and Elizabeth's relationship into a more mature direction.

They never mentioned Jack and Elizabeth. Jack and Elizabeth was never meant to happen. It was always meant to be Will and Elizabeth together.

Yes, you enjoy the J/E scenes, but that does not mean that they are more canon.

And for all that J/E scenes were cut from the film, so were lots of scenes with Norrington/Davy, Will and Jack, Jack and Beckett...etc.

I'm not kidding you either; lots of stuff was cut for the film.

LovelyOne
They should have made that a heck of a lot clearer with DMC dont you think?? I mean the majority people obviously didnt quite "get it" after watching DMC..a people's choice award..swarm after swarm of J/E fans

I think DMC was poorly written in that respect..very poorly written. It was never clear to an audience, this is coming from a film studies student who has been taught how to read a film, I'm not the only film studies student on this forum who read it that way. The majority did...

T&T have to constantly explain themselves about the whole situation..if they made the darn thing clear in the first place they wouldn't have to. Poor writing.

ESB -1138
Originally posted by starfish
As I sit here attempting to rationalize exactly why there was absolutely no relationship building between Jack and Elizabeth in this third movie, I am looking back on the end of Dead Man's Chest. If we think of these last two movies and one long film, then maybe we have to look closely at the choice Elizabeth made in leaving Jack Sparrow for dead on the Black Pearl, no TRAPPING him for death, when the Kracken was coming for them. All through DMC there is tension and banter between Jack and Liz, yes, and that darn compass- the compass keeps pointing Jack to Liz and Liz to Jack. But has anyone thought that the end of DMC signified the end of Jack and Liz?

You know the compass pointed to Jack when Liz had it after Jack just pissed her off. The compass pointed to Jack when Beckett had it. Does that mean Beckett and Jack are going to be lovers? No it just means Beckett wanted Jack to kill him.

And on the island Liz stopped and turned to see the compass was pointing in the direction Jack was standing at but it was in the same direction as the chess. When Jack looked at it it pointed to Liz but did he care? No. His mind jumped to the chess. So that really shows Jack really didn't want Liz.

Ericadawn
I still think Jack and Beckett were lovers but then Jack betrayed him...probably by sleeping with a woman so Beckett betrayed him by giving him that cargo because he would have known that Jack wouldn't deliver it.

Because burning a ship isn't good business, it's more like bearing a personal grudge...

T.Maria
Surreal;

Im not going to bite your head off or anything.

Don't get me wrong, at the end of the day i understand why she went with Will.

But look at it from sparrabeth perspective;

if the relationship/lust/whatever it was in the end was resolved in DMC, when why did we not really see much progression in their friendship until the very end?

Thats all im a little pissed about.
Compared to DMC, sparrabeth got no screen time.

Yes, i understand that this was because of willabeth and their story needed sorting so people could try and believe they belonged together at the end of the film.
(I say try and believe, because my little brother couldnt even manage that)

I do agree with your point that words are meaningless, however.
But the thing that itched away at me was that within the willabeth relationship, they were keeping things from eachother and not being able to trust eachother...and then suddenly its alright in the end and she just decides she wants to marry him on a boat??

Nope, not buying it.

sorry.

PirateDiva
thats why im still saying that they should have stretched out AWE in 2 seprate movies Pirates 3 and Pirates 4 to better develop the relationships between Jack and Lizzie and Will and Liz!

I agree with T.Maria....they kept lying to each other...not being able to trust one another and then out of nowhere they are getting married! Same with Jack and Liz....she killed him and they save him and out of nowhere he's voting for her in the bretheren court....i would just have liked a moment where they each at least talked about it and forgave each other!!

I was also really looking forward to like Will confronting Jack and Liz about the Kiss @ the end of DMC! Or more Tension between Jack and Liz....i dont know but im just saying that something is missing in AWE and that is the Classic Sparrabeth Moments!!

willofthewisp
"They should have made that a heck of a lot clearer with DMC dont you think?? I mean the majority people obviously didnt quite "get it" after watching DMC..a people's choice award..swarm after swarm of J/E fans

I think DMC was poorly written in that respect..very poorly written. It was never clear to an audience, this is coming from a film studies student who has been taught how to read a film, I'm not the only film studies student on this forum who read it that way. The majority did."-----------LovelyOne

I agree to a point. I think the writers and director wanted different things and so there was a lot of emphasis on Jack and Liz's progression, teasing us with the possibility that there was a love triangle. As T&T have said, by the end of DMC, the triangle is resolved. But I think their relationship progresses how it should.

Speaking of Will, the first clear explanation of what happened comes from Jack. He flat out tells everyone that Liz killed him. So in Will's mind, and rightly so, Jack's in the clear. Will's smart. He's figured the kiss was a distraction/goodbye. He does, however, confront Liz about it. She didn't tell him because she didn't want him to worry about it. Okay, so why would he confront Jack about it again? It seems like what was done was done. People are ready to move on.

So we go from hate to him voting for her. Now, I think Jack and Liz have a lot of screen time together. I've always thought they had more total than she and Will did. They aren't alone with each other as much, but there's not as much opportunity. They're not on his ship, getting to have private conversations. They have a mission to accomplish.

So, what I've been trying to figure out is the compass. We've learned by now that every time Liz holds it, it is pointing to the chest. A part of her wants Jack and I think she believes the compass to be pointing to him, which says a lot. But when Jack holds it...the writers have always said that Liz plays into his thoughts "to some degree." I wish they would expand on that, because I don't think they've ever said that Jack falls in love and I don't think he's suffering from unrequited love by the end of AWE. He seems perfectly happy with where he and Liz are and I think he loves her as a friend/sister. So if anyone has any logical hints about just how she is playing into his thoughts in DMC, let me know. My take is he did want her, but decided against it.

ESB -1138
Originally posted by PirateDiva
thats why im still saying that they should have stretched out AWE in 2 seprate movies Pirates 3 and Pirates 4 to better develop the relationships between Jack and Lizzie and Will and Liz!

I agree with T.Maria....they kept lying to each other...not being able to trust one another and then out of nowhere they are getting married! Same with Jack and Liz....she killed him and they save him and out of nowhere he's voting for her in the bretheren court....i would just have liked a moment where they each at least talked about it and forgave each other!!

I was also really looking forward to like Will confronting Jack and Liz about the Kiss @ the end of DMC! Or more Tension between Jack and Liz....i dont know but im just saying that something is missing in AWE and that is the Classic Sparrabeth Moments!!

And Liz left Jack onboard the Pearl to be left for dinner for the Kraken. I can see why Jack would be able to trust Elizabeth. roll eyes (sarcastic)

PirateDiva
So she left him to be Kraken Food! He still cares for her!! He could have easily left Liz on the Dutchman, but he saved her without thinking about it twice....He forgave her...i just would have like to see a scene when that moment happened! big grin

willofthewisp
I love your sig, PirateDiva. I loved the quote about him being a lost bird who couldn't fly and then he proved them all wrong.

Gideon
I watched AWE today, and I will say that I am particularly surprised at how Will and Elizabeth lied to each other. To say that their relationship appeared strained would be an understatement. That said, I still don't see any real reason why the Depp Fanbrigade delude themselves into thinking that there was anything between Jack and Elizabeth.

Hell, Davy Jones saw "true love" between Will and Liz. Not Jack and Liz.

starfish
Bravo! I agree completely with this post. Liz and Jack's relationship "matured" in the way it was supposed to in this final film. I love your thought process here! Right on in my opinion.

Originally posted by willofthewisp
Okay, I have to say, the relationship is resolved. According to T&T, it was resolved at the end of DMC. I'll always love sparrabeth, so I'm looking at the canon J/E relationship here. I think in DMC, people assumed they were an item. Beckett certainly did. He fishes for information from Liz in DMC and then from Jack in AWE. Neither person really reveals too much. But I think they both start to think about the possibilities. Jack's come across a woman who can beat him, who is gorgeous, smart, independent, and competent. Of course he's going to contemplate having a relationship with her. Liz is flattered by it and probably does toy with the idea of having him. So they banter, kind of explore what the other has to offer. T&T say Liz's kiss is to save Will AND it lets her slake her lust. Yes, she did lust after Jack. Who wouldn't? I'm engaged and I find him a sexy beast. But she slakes her lust there, meaning she gets it out of her system. That is the motivation behind the almost-kiss.

Disclaimer: I want sparrabeth. I will always think it's better. This is the explanation of what actually happens.

So they have this almost-kiss and it's hot and both seem turned on by it, at least a little. But, Liz makes her decision. Jack respects it and is dazed, and I think he still thinks he can get out of it and give her a little slap on the wrist for outplaying him once again. But no. He dies.

Which brings us to her guilt. By this time, I think she's established a strong friendship with Jack and is in danger of losing it. So we set sail on our journey. I don't think romantic thoughts are in her head. She just wants him back in her life- alive-and hopes to God he won't hate her.

Which brings us to Jack. Well, his mind is everywhere. I'm sure of all the multiple Jacks running around one of them is thinking of taking an imaginary Liz right there on the deck. But he's dead, going nuts, and it's all her fault. Notice he doesn't look all that happy to see her once they reunite. But then a magic thing happens. It blows over. This relationship is too strong, and then the tragedy of Liz losing her dad seems to bring them to at least back to where they were.

It's a strong friendship. When he picks her as pirate king and she trades him for Will, they both know everything worked out how they wanted it. They can depend on one another and can work with one another. It's a more comfortable relationship that's more casual than it was and I think it's because all the romantic confusion is gone. Hasn't anyone here ever had a really great friend of the opposite sex? I think that's the closure of the relationship. The "it never would have worked between us" is an inside joke between them. It's something they can laugh about together. I personally would have preferred to see them at least hug, but hey, she's the Pirate King. He's going to come visit her a lot. It's not completely goodbye. I know, fellow sparrabethers, it's not the ending we hoped for. But appreciate a deep friendship for what it is. They went from strangers, to being forced to work together, to a fledgling friendship, to fliritng with romance, to almost wrecking it all, and they not only salvaged their relationship, but improved it. Talk about strong feelings. Besides, the Swann and the Sparrow are linked together, not only through each other but through Will.

willofthewisp
Thanks! I don't think we've spoken. I'm Willo! I know that's too late, but hi.

Big Sexy
I just recently watched POTC 1,2, and 3. Was it just me or did anyone notice that Jacks probably the most honest out of most of the characters in the series even though everyone in the movie regards him as cut throat.

JaehSkywalker
honest as in saying the 'chosen' truth and keeping some stuff from them? Yes.

he's actually the most honest pirate there, i sorta agree.

T.Maria
jack wears his heart on his sleeve smile

Thats what we love about him smile

"Do you think he knows what he's doing? ...Or does he just make it up as he goes along?..." big grin

PirateDiva
Originally posted by willofthewisp
I love your sig, PirateDiva. I loved the quote about him being a lost bird who couldn't fly and then he proved them all wrong.

Why Thank u love! Mina is the genious behind the siggy and i came up with the quote...smile

willofthewisp
I love both!

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