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Glorfindel vs Elrond who would win ?

Glorfindel. He has seen the Light(I think from the tree), and he has the showings to prove it. He defeated a Maia which is not an easy task. Not only that, but he has beaten the Maia without much trouble (till the end)

Dude, stfu Elrond has never been shown to fight, therefore this thread is irrelevant as no one knows how good he can fight.

Glorfindel, he killed a balrog.

Originally posted by Incanus
Dude, stfu Elrond has never been shown to fight, therefore this thread is irrelevant as no one knows how good he can fight.
Doesn't matter. The dude can't kill a Maia

Originally posted by Incanus
Dude, stfu Elrond has never been shown to fight, therefore this thread is irrelevant as no one knows how good he can fight. Your Thrawn vs. Revan thread is different?

Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Your Thrawn vs. Revan thread is different? It is due to the fact that both have feats relevant that are canon as to how good of a commander they are.

*going off-topic*

Revan has to his name battles he won and general methods he used. But Thrawn has those plus detailed sources telling us about his personal mentality and small-scale, specific feats. Revan lacks all those little additions that make for a detailed analysis (lack of material on canon's part).

id say he loses. he died killing a balrog.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
id say he loses. he died killing a balrog.
Not really. He had the Balrog at his mercy. One of the weapons that Glorfindel was using already had torn the Balrog's whip hand. A sword was also stuck on his other arm. Even the Balrog's belly was penetrated by a spear.

Glorfindel was clearly killing him. Though, at the last second, the Balrog griped his tight and pulled him down from the mountain together.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
id say he loses. he died killing a balrog.
And Elrond would done better... Killing a Balrog is an amazing feat, even if you die. Very few entities, either Ainur or Mortal, have a chance against a balrog. Afterall, Tolkien made it that there were no more than 7 balrogs in his later writings.

But there were also enough balrogs to have made
A.) A section of Morgoths armies, which were number i the billions at the least
B.) Enough to have them be the front line guys after some orcs die, so they just run around and kill stuff
C.)Feanor was surrounded by more than 8 alone, and then there were far more
D.)They numbered about a thousand

Originally posted by Incanus
But there were also enough balrogs to have made
A.) A section of Morgoths armies, which were number i the billions at the least
B.) Enough to have them be the front line guys after some orcs die, so they just run around and kill stuff
C.)Feanor was surrounded by more than 8 alone, and then there were far more
D.)They numbered about a thousand
A Balrog is a Maiar and I doubt it was in billions.

Originally posted by Incanus
But there were also enough balrogs to have made
A.) A section of Morgoths armies, which were number i the billions at the least
B.) Enough to have them be the front line guys after some orcs die, so they just run around and kill stuff
C.)Feanor was surrounded by more than 8 alone, and then there were far more
D.)They numbered about a thousand
Tolkien was a retconning...

"The idea that Morgoth disposed of a 'host' of Balrogs endured long, but in a late note my father said that only very few ever existed - 'at most seven'."
BoLT2, The Fall of Gondolin

"There should not be supposed more than say 3 or at most 7 ever existed" HoME 10, Morgoth's Ring

Even if there were a million of Balrog that does not mean they were weak. The fact that they are Maiar who have the ability to use all their power without becoming corrupt must tell you one thing. Not only that, but one was able to kill Gandalf.

Ok, no one is paying any attention, so I wil lrepeat myself:
1.)Morgoths HORDES numbered in the billions, growing so large so that Anfauglith couldnt contain them
2.)Christopher Tolkien is not J.R.R. Tolkien, is he? If the words "at most seven or eight" were in J.R.R. Tolkiens words, then I dont consider them to be right, as in Unfinished Tales the number was a thousand
3.)A thousand is a small number compared to the actual size of the forces of Morgoth
4.)What happened to all the other maiar that joined Morgoth? Did they NOT become balrogs? what did they become then? dragons? orcs? I dont think so.
5.)NOT being corrupt? WTF. They are ALREADY corrupt, hence why they are balrogs, not Maia. A maia is no longer a maia when they become a blarog, because they are then demons not angels. God, get some sense.
6.)One could kill Gandalf when: A.)Gandalf was SEVERLY limited in his powers, B.) Gandalf used a sword and no magic, that movie **** about lightning, no. C.)Gandalf is a maia as well. DEAL WITH IT.
7.)You have yet to prove that Elrond could not kill one, as some could be killed by common soldiers, as happened in numeros battles.

Originally posted by Incanus
Ok, no one is paying any attention, so I wil lrepeat myself:
1.)Morgoths HORDES numbered in the billions, growing so large so that Anfauglith couldnt contain them
Retconed

JRR Tolkien said it. And once again retcon.

Your point...

Werewolves, vampires, perhaps dragons, perhaps orc kings like Boldog, and all other types of monsters.

He was not severly limited from his powers he was simply banned from using his full might against Sauron he may have used it all to take down the Balrog.

He usedd magic... He placed a spell on the door to stop the Balrog advancing and the Balrog counter spelled it. He later on brok the bridge. After that we can't say for certain whether he used magic or not.

Prove that Elrond could kill one.

Originally posted by ares834
Retconed

JRR Tolkien said it. And once again retcon.



Prove



Your point...

Werewolves, vampires, perhaps dragons, perhaps orc kings like Boldog, and all other types of monsters.





No, they were created by Morgoth, the balrogs, were not, and there is no friggin way a maiar is an orc, since they are all elves.






He was not severly limited from his powers he was simply banned from using his full might against Sauron he may have used it all to take down the Balrog.



No, in taking on the flesh of Arda, they would not be able to bring thewir full strength to bear, as well as Aman only being a vision.


He usedd magic... He placed a spell on the door to stop the Balrog advancing and the Balrog counter spelled it. He later on brok the bridge. After that we can't say for certain whether he used magic or not.



Ok, yes, he did use magic to keep the door shut for a few moments, forgot that, But no, he didnt break the bridge, the balrog stepped on it. Im pretty sure something that BIG, must be heavy enough to break the bridge.

Prove that Elrond could kill one.

God, you idiot, I JUST SAID THAT TO YOU. You are proving you are losing and yet you refuse to admit it to yourself.

Ah, but who knows the exact circumstances of Glorfindels fight? He also
A.)When confronting the Nine, he was on elvish land, and they were crossing an elvish river.
B.)Spirits is the keyword. I have no doubt that the less corrupted ones were orcs king, but there were never billions of maiar to begin with. There was 1 maiar/orc, and you named him. Dragons and their fell spirit, only Glaurung or Ancalagont the Black would have been powerful enough to be Maiar, and they wernt, they carried the essence of Morgoth.
C.)Dude, you just contradicted yourself,"Right AT THE BALROGS FEET" Meaning the balrog was on it. Sure, there is a little to suggest Gandalf helped it, but no, he didnt break it, the balrog did.
D.)Glorfindel has no feats either, he is like Revan. We know he did something, but we dont know the circumstances. He could have thrown the spear and weapons. Prove he didnt.
E.)No the balrog didnt counter spell it, it had a will greater than Gandalfs and stopped him from keeping the door shut on top of breaking it down.

It's not my position to join the entire argument, but what I will for some?



Exactly, he confronted them. Something most would not. Heck, even Gandalf was pretty uncertain if he could defeat the Witch-King, yet, Glorfindel took on all 9. Besides, he is one of the elves who saw the lights from some Valar tree (forgot if it's true or not).


What? We know a lot more about Glorfindel then people know about Raven(from SW). We know how he killed the Balrog, and how he died. Like I said before, he had the Balrog killed. That's why the Balrog fell from the Mountain/cliff and in desperation, the Balrog grabbed Glorfindels with him.

We know he wounded the Balrog in both arms and the belly. He was even hurt.

Here is a nice img of the fight between B and G
http://angel.cs.msu.su/~salnikov/gilrond/Images/John_Howe/gandalf_and_the_balrog.jpg

*Revan. He's not a bird.

Haha that'd be cool!

Ok, you contradicted yourself AGAIN with that pic, as the balrog has his foot (and therefore WEIGHT) on the bridge. And show me where it details EXACTLY what Glorfindel did in the fight against the balrog, wheter he threw the weapons or not can be dfebated if you cant. Wait, you cant, and it cant because you have no proof. Glorfindel
A.)Had ELVISH land, and therefore was like the WK at Minas Tirith, he had added force, only it wasnt demonic, it was more angelic.
B.) He knew the Nine couldnt cross Bruinen(i think they name of that river after Frodo was stabbed) and he knew his horse could get there faster.

You also said that he smote the brige, meaning he hit it. But if that were true, then your picture can also not be used other than th ebalrog having its weight on it as the balrog charged Gandalf as Gandalf is not doing ANY smiting in there? Any see any smiting? I see a ray of light, thats it.

Originally posted by Incanus
Ah, but who knows the exact circumstances of Glorfindels fight? He also
A.)When confronting the Nine, he was on elvish land, and they were crossing an elvish river. I never said anything about the Nazgul.
"The least could have been primitive Orcs." Notice Orcs is plural it means multiple. Also the Dragon thing has been debated for a lonf while, but it is impossible to tell.

"At that moment Gandalf lifted his staff, and crying aloud he smote the bridge before him. The staff broke asunder and fell from his hand. A blinding sheet of white flame sprang up." Notice the white fire, the breaking staff and the shout.... It was clearly magic aimed at the Balrog's feet.

He has some impressive feats. All from HoME 2.
"and Glorfindel cut his way out very hardly and with few
men."
"Then some of the hugest of the drakes came on and glared in the
fog, and he must perforce bid the company to go at a run, fighting
on the left at haphazard; but Glorfindel held the rear manfully and
many more of the Golden Flower fell there."
"Now Galdor and Glorfindel held their own despite the surprise of
assault, and many of the Orcs were struck into the abyss"
"
Then Glorfindel leapt forward
upon him and his golden armour gleamed strangely in the moon,
and he hewed at that demon that it leapt again upon a great
boulder and Glorfindel after. Now there was a deadly combat
upon that high rock above the folk; and these, pressed behind and
hindered ahead, were grown so close that well nigh all could see,
yet was it over ere Glorfindel's men could leap to his side. The
ardour of Glorfindel drave that Balrog from point to point, and his
mail fended him from its whip and claw. Now had he beaten a
heavy swinge upon its iron helm, now hewn off the creature's
whip-arm at the elbow. Then sprang the Balrog in the torment of
his pain and fear full at Glorfindel, who stabbed like a dart of a
snake; but he found only a shoulder, and was grappled, and they
swayed to a fall upon the crag-top. Then Glorfindel's left hand
sought a dirk, and this he thrust up that it pierced the Balrog's
belly nigh his own face (for that demon was double his stature);
and it shrieked, and fell backwards from the rock, and falling
clutched Glorfindel's yellow locks beneath his cap, and those
twain fell into the abyss."
"Still do the Eldar say when they see good fighting at great odds
of power against a fury of evil: "Alas! 'Tis Glorfindel and the
Balrog", and their hearts are still sore for that fair one of
the Noldoli."

"What it was I cannot guess, but I have never felt such a challenge. The counter-spell was terrible."

Originally posted by Incanus
Ok, you contradicted yourself AGAIN with that pic, as the balrog has his foot (and therefore WEIGHT) on the bridge. And show me where it details EXACTLY what Glorfindel did in the fight against the balrog, wheter he threw the weapons or not can be dfebated if you cant. Wait, you cant, and it cant because you have no proof. Glorfindel
A.)Had ELVISH land, and therefore was like the WK at Minas Tirith, he had added force, only it wasnt demonic, it was more angelic.
B.) He knew the Nine couldnt cross Bruinen(i think they name of that river after Frodo was stabbed) and he knew his horse could get there faster.
I told you I am not going the argument about Balrog vs Glorfindel. I barely remember what i read from 3 years ago.

As for Glorfindel, does it matter how Glorfindel defeated the Balrog. We know it was just them, and at full power. Why else would a Balrog purposely ambush them.

Where the heck does it say that the Elvish land has aura that strengthens one to give them strength to fight off the 9 all of a sudden? Huh?

Dosnt say it, other than the fact that he ran to Elvish land and stopped once he hit it, he fel confident htta they wouldnt be able to beat him there, elsewise who says he couldnt have stayed at Amon Sul or wherever he found them(i forgot) to fight them, telling Aragorn to take them on?


Oh and plz give me source for where it says Glorfindel is the same one who died in the pass.



Oh, and it matters alot that we know the exact circumstances of the fight or we cant say he didnt throw the weapons.

Then shall I take your lack of posts as a concession or have you not been on?

Nope, untill you post any feats of Elrond that are near as impressive as Glorfindel's, you lose.

Lets see
A.)He cast a spell that beat off 5 of the Nine, including the WK, (the flood thingy) And here are some quotes from the Fellowship of the Ring:
"What Frodo saw was a warrior in the full of his prime, surrounded by other great warriors"
And, if I am right, he seems to think Glorfindel could fight off all Nine at once so here:
"Not even Glorfindel and Aragorn together could fight all Nine at once"
And also, if he could, then why didnt he stay behind to fight them insetead of sending Frodo ahead and hiding?

Originally posted by Incanus
Lets see
A.)He cast a spell that beat off 5 of the Nine, including the WK, (the flood thingy)
That was not a spell at all. He commands the waters in the valley of Rivendell, only there can he use that power.

Still doesn't mean shit. A warrior in their prime is a warrior simply at their own best, doesn't mean he could beat Glorfindel in a fight.

Cool story bro. Elrond wouldn't stand a chance against all of the nine either if he doesn't have his water.

O man guys this whole debatte is turning on the spot.

Also my answer is Glorfindel.

Heh. It seems I shoved Incanus's head up his ass.

Not quite decided to read some stuff i forgot but here goes: i doubt that Glorfindel still has his re

Not quite decided to read some stuff i forgot but here goes: i doubt that Glorfindel still has his reminiscent power from Gonbdolin, being that he is like a wight, but he is still alive and all. _i know makes no sense just couldnt get better words)
Gandalf said somewhere (AH curse my memory) that Elrond cast a spell on the valley so that no servants of Sauron could enter(and Gandalf added a few things to it, like the shape of horsemen)
Still waiting for the proof asked for earlier about it being same Glorfindel because mine was an assumptionElrond managed to be in Mordor for 7 years with the armies of the Last Alliance and not get killed, even tho Anarion himself had been killed, and Gil-Galad and Elendil,
Elrond would doubtlessly have either worked on his skills to near perfection over the first second and third ages
Glorfindel may have been one of the few of the elves in Rivendell that could ride openly against the Nine, but Elrond could have 2



oh and btw when i started i thougfht Glorfindel would win i just like trying to make a better case for the loser =p im nice like that7 years

Originally posted by ares834
Glorfindel, he killed a balrog.

not just any balrog but THE balrog

well it is said that when glorfindel sacrified himself fighting with the balrog, he was reincarnated and the valar granted him great power, and then says that he was almost like a maiar.