Originally posted by carthage
la di dah blah blah (message too long, had to delete some of the rubbish text here to post)
Using your insanely retarded logic these well trained force users, had low showings against non force users and were momentarily beaten to varying degrees. They obviously suck and Lucas is taking a dump on his Disney canon, and massive fanboys like you are eating it up!
Again not only are you lowballing Kylo but deliberately ignoring context for why he lost.
Factors (mentioned by others) that contributed to Kylo losing was NOT your point. Your ORIGINAL point was that - derp they were all not well trained. Want me to quote it for you?
Originally posted by carthage
Derp.
All three of them aren't well trained and Rey also has an immense connection to the force.
Good ol coward tactic - talk about other points when you can't defend your original statement.
Now because I know this is going to be an unending back and forth because you will never concede defeat, let me sum it up for the rest of the viewers. You should be so honored.
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Lesson on why Carthage is a retard
The original posts in question:
Originally posted by Placidity
Kylo Ren lost to someone who was not even a padawan yet.
This statement is factually correct. Although I did say it in a tongue in cheek manner coupled with frustration on how Abrams decided to script the final fight.
Of course, there are *MANY* points a mental gymnast could make to begin to justify how Rey won in the way that she did. I haven't heard anything that I find adequate, but that's my opinion.
Now instead of bringing up any of these points, our resident retard Carthage says:
Originally posted by carthage
Derp.
All three of them aren't well trained and Rey also has an immense connection to the force.
It is critical to note here that the implied meaning of my first statement was obviously that it is ridiculous that he lost but at the same time, he did lose, and thus would lose here against Obi Wan as well. It is also important to understand that Carthage *does* understand the meaning behind my statement, which is why he responded the way it did, otherwise his reply would be a complete non sequitur. Therefore, his statement is one that attempts to justify why Kylo lost/Rey won, and provides two "reasons", these being:
- None of the parties were "well trained".
- Rey is strong in the force.
Now, lets break this down to see how retarded it really is. Please note, this is the main statement being addressed, not anything that comes after or something that you might be thinking.
1. All three of them
Its safe to assume we are talking about Kylo, Rey and Finn. I don't really know why Finn was included here, but there are times I can't guess at the reasoning retards have, so lets just skip that.
2. aren't well trained
Lets deal with Kylo first. Is Kylo "well trained"? Well that is difficult to answer as it is subjective. It may be easier to think of who is *not* "well trained". I think most would agree that a padawan, would not be considered as "well trained". On the other hand, someone like Darth Maul, is verbatim quoted as "well trained" by Sidious ("you have been well trained my young apprentice, they will be no match for you"
. So if we take a look at Kylo's actual feats, and compare them to a Padawan and Darth Maul, we should get a good idea whether or not Kylo is "well trained".
Kylo's feats:
- Reacting to a blaster bolt AFTER it's been fired.
- Telekinetically freezing a blaster bolt in place.
- Effortlessly using force choke.
- Completely immobilizing a person.
- Able to instantly render a person unconscious using the force.
- Able to extract information from a person's mind. This is also no simple Mind Trick, Poe does not strike me as one with a weak mind.
- Killed the rest of the Jedi Order that Luke established.
Based on these feats alone, would you say Kylo is at the level of a padawan, or closer to or surpassing the likes of Darth Maul? Remember this is Kylo Ren up to the point the point before Rey became an instant Jedi and started styling on him.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/younglings.jpg
Can you see these guys replicating Kylo's feats?
I'm going to take it even one step further. Before this film, if someone said Yoda or Sidious (canon film versions) could freeze a blast bolt in place, would you not have thought it would have been impressive even for them? The WHOLE POINT of the way Kylo was introduced was to showcase him as the new badass villain.
Hm, and *someone* was saying that I was lowballing Kylo.
I've already mentioned and acknowledged that Snoke says Kylo needs to complete his training, but this is not the same as not being "well trained". Even seasoned masters such as Maul and Dooku still have much to learn. What exactly does the training entails? It's important to note Snoke is clearly referring to training in the ways of the Dark Side. This doesn't mean Kylo was not already considerably trained as a Jedi. You could argue all day long about Snoke's statement if you wish, but in light of the above points/feats, the argument is moot.
Of course, the next important character to talk about is Rey. Now is Rey "not well" trained, or "not trained" at all? This is a rhetorical question.
Now some of you might think that Rey while not trained in the force, but was perhaps a skilled fighter. But this doesn't help the argument at all. We've seen what Kylo vs Rey looks like when she is not using the force. She was immobilized and mind raped, a walk in the park for Kylo. So her skill, whatever you decide it is, is irrelevant when she does not have the force.
Let's go back to the statement - " aren't well trained".
This means that they are both inexperienced and at the same level. This obviously not true, to a reasonable person it requires no explanation. Kylo has been trained by Luke and Snoke. Rey on the other hand, has never been trained at all. There is no argument to be had here. Carthage is simply wrong.
3. Rey also has an immense connection to the force.
This part is what is interesting, because it actually requires some effort to point out the flaws behind it.
In the entire history of the lore, having a strong force potential alone does not allow one to beat a skilled force user without training or knowledge.
Before we get into it, lets just point out the obvious that the force is strong in the Skywalker bloodline, and Kylo is a Skywalker, and therefore is not exactly lacking in force potential (Kenobi: Luke, the Force runs strong in your family). And when I say "strong" I mean among the strongest in history.
Now the statement suggests that merely having the potential is enough to give you an advantage over a more skilled user. Carthage further confirms this is what he means:
Originally posted by carthage
And training has **** all compared to being inherently powerful in the force. Luke wasn't anywhere near as well trained as Vader, and yet he was able to contend with Vader and best him.
Let's see why this is false:
- Could you imagine if Anakin Skywalker was never trained as a boy. He had never known about the force. Do you think that as an adult, if you gave him a few hours to play with a lightsabre and whisper some magical force speech in his ear that he would be able to beat Kylo Ren as he was depicted in the beginning of the movie? Anakin Skywalker. The Chosen One. Force potential doesn't get any higher than that (we know his potential was greater than Sidious and Yoda).
- To address Carthage's example of Luke. As I said before, Luke WAS trained by Obi Wan and Yoda, unlike Rey. Luke LOST the first time he fought Vader. Luke gained much experience over the run of the three films (i.e years) before finally beating Vader. Clearly he IMPROVED OVER TIME as he lost terribly the first time. And if you could even say that its possible Luke won because he gave in to his rage when Vader suggested turning Leia.
Let's just face it. I know most people are raving over the film. That doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to admit its flaws and still say its good. The way the last fight went conflicts with what we've known about the force, training etc from the last 6 movies. Now I can appreciate that Jar Jar Abrams intentionally had Kylo wounded to attempt to even the odds, but IMO it didn't even come close. The fact that Rey instantly became a Jedi has nothing to do with factors as to why Kylo was a noob at the end.
Either way, Kylo did not lose because he was not well trained (compared to Rey), nor because of her force potential (and that's assuming her force potential is stronger than a Skywalker's).
What's important in the end is that I hope everyone sees Carthage for the retard that he is.
Next time pause to think before you decide to talk smack.
You lose.
